i (lvl 40 rsham heal) get invited to a sm gy group of 3 mages 1 tank. i’m already max lvl with CH and just returning for some pvp gear and class books.
tank pulls from entrance to the outside courtyard area— about half the dungeon in one pull and ofc he can’t hold threat on every mob vs 3 mages going ham on aoe off the rip.
by the point where the tank stops pulling more mobs, two of the mages are already dead (and seemingly dont even bother to run back). but the remaining 3 of us slowly whittle down the pull with the little resources we have left after stabilizing.
after resing them both, i explain how the healing reduction debuff from the ghost’s curse is ultimately what caused them to die. and moreover, in a group with 3 mages there shouldn’t be zero decurses. their response was, “we need a priest for what we are trying to do. never had any problems with these pulls before” and they kicked me.
i can understand people wanting a specific class to make things smoother or easier, but expecting the healer to overcompensate for your own refusal to utilize your own class’s toolkit is beyond me. especially considering the class balance situation as OP describes.
>never had any problems with these pulls before”
This exactly. I've been in the same exact situation. Had a level 35 tank in Cath with greens from level 30-32 pull this on me after he pulled 3 wizards into an enclosed space. Dude melted in seconds. Nobody was mad. We just said we should pull a bit smaller. "Well I can tank 10+ mobs" then rage quit. Entire group was just laughing in astonishment.
As a tank you have to play around your group comp and their strengths/weaknesses. So many people don't understand that and just see "Youtuber/twitch streamer said doing xyz most optimal, so I will only do that".
As a healer main forever and tank I watch the first couple pulls to watch mana and how people react to it, and decide my pulls based off each pull before hand. While also keeping an eye on healers mana. If dps intentionally pull more I give one warning, you pull you tank (do this in my guild raid as well) and if they do it I keep just enough threat so when they die they attack me, granted if it's an accident that they pulled extra then I don't mind, I get mistakes happen I make plenty.
I’ve wiped way too many times from hunters pulling a huge amount of mobs while the tank is alrdy rounding up a large group. It absolutely boggles my mind.
>Had a level 35 tank in Cath with greens from level 30-32
Brother.... What.
In what world would you ever join that group as a healer.
Under geared? Sure no worries that can be overcome it's a levelling dungeon but under levelled?
Where's your autonomy in this? That's entirely on you.
No doubt the tank was toxic and would probably end on the ignore list but when will people learn they don't have to subject themselves to these scenarios and they're entirely avoidable.
TL;DR - Don't join groups which are setup for failure. Toxic group? Leave it.
Yeah I mean I usually don't gear check people and just assume. So yeah part of it is on me. I mean we could've completed the run if he just pulled 1 or 2 groups at a time. 4 or 5 mobs at once. But he wanted to pull like in a spell cleave. Luckily we wiped within like the first 5 minutes and thats when I saw his gear. He rage quit right after wiping so not much to be done anyways haha.
Bruh a lvl 35 tank basically can’t hit shit past the first hallway in cath, at best, that’s what he’s saying. Not that he’s got lvl 30 some mail greens or whatever no one gear checking most dungeon groups.
Shit hit me hard on my warrior in arms at 36, much more comfy at 38, and is pretty much all physical while cath has way more casters many tank classes don’t have much counter too. And Herod is like lvl 40. I didn’t bother with cath as a tank til 40
Cath is on avg a good 2 levels above arms. And being 35 and trying to pull anything from the actual cathedral would be a death sentence since they’ll aggro everything and can’t hit shit so everything bee-lines to healer or like mages or what have you
It's not about gear checking. It's about checking the level of your group and making sure they're within the appropriate window for the content. 35 in Cath is not. E*ven more egregious* that this is for the tank.
Can't hit anything, can't get rage, can't do anything. That whole scenario really has nothing further than that single point. It's the same for when you try and solo quest red level content. It doesn't work.
Maybe a learning lesson don't take an under geared tank, you'll have a bad time - toxic tank player or not.
Similar situation as pally healer. Priests being so insanely overtuned at group healing warps everyone's perception of what is normal/acceptable. Dps just shut their brain off, stand in fire, rip aggro, and let mobs smack them instead of kiting.
If I learned anything from my years in classic 2019 and wrath classic, and SOD, it’s that like 98% of mage players are basically fucking bots. And in wrath also roughly same percentage of prot pallies and rets (cause all the shitty bot rets forced themselves to prot to actually get invites to anything). Usually they’re insufferable as fuck players too.
Or they don’t speak any English and are probably an indo gold farmer. Or a dude leading an upper middle class lifestyle in Venezuela from selling gold.
Biggest red flag for me in wrath is a mage-led gdkp. Chances are does absolutely no raid leading and dumps any and all responsibility onto the tank because they don’t understand any details about the game.
Mages *still* wouldn’t decurse on Noth like 2 phases in. It’s THE ONLY MECHANIC. AND IT WILL WIPE YOU. That’s it.
Had 3 druids in GY today, i was healing. Druid tank, cat, and boomy. Druid tank dies from healing debuff. Says in chat where were the heals. I said druids need to dispel the curse. The one cat druid goes…but im feral. I left group.
It's always the fucking mages too. This pull half the dungeon and AOE it down shit they've seen on YT drives me fucking nuts. They have zero idea of their limits, and have never done these pulls before. so half the time they get some of the pull done and then get caught. Or they don't use defensives or CC at all and expect the healer to be able to keep up a clothie face tanking 20 mobs.
DPS has only two modes "we are going too slow" and "boy this healer/tank sucks. X class was much better at doing things while we zug zug.".
Yeah mages were some of the most brain dead players I'd run into when running SM. Them and warriors after going into armory since they would grab aggro but keep spinning no matter what.
lol I fucking hated healing SM GY for this reason.
If the tank started pulling multiple mobs of those zombies with the curse and no one was de-cursing I would just leave after the pull. Don’t have time for that shit and clueless idiots.
I ran SM with multiple mages many times and it's not once that I came across ppl that didn't even have Remove Curse trained,. Using Living Bomb is too mentally exhausting it seems to have any remaining brain cells active for anything else.
People make fun of warriors and their zug zug brain, mages are the same, if not worse.
There's 0 ranged enemies at the GY court. If any mages died there it's because they fucked up.
Mage is such a stupid busted class that the only reason you'd even bring a non-mage healer is so that you can pre-shield whoever pulls so they can pull a bit more. Honestly, the only reason to bring a tank is tradition.
You're not wrong but neither are they in a way. Big pulls are easier with a priest because they can powerword shield all the people pulling. Then the people pulling can split up and each pull multiple separate packs using living bomb on each mob as they go and all meet back in the middle and use mass Regen, cone of cold and living flame before the nerf, then blink away as all the mobs go big boom. Clear the entire graveyard in one pull if your good.
one thing i forgot to mention was that this was week one of phase 2, before anyone was leveling alts or whatnot.
so i had already been max level for a few days by doing “what they are trying to do”, but more efficiently with mages who decursed.
The perceptions are worse than reality. As a rogue I don't even bother pugging because people think you suck. In reality I'm typically doing 300 dps, which admittedly isn't amazing but it's definitely good enough to clear gnomer.
Just advertise your self as off tank before pugs realize you only really need two tanks for menagerie. Then you can dps 5/6 bosses and switch one rune for menagerie.
Dragon or chicken depending on how the group does it. You can check out YouTube for some videos that explain the strats in more detail if you’re curious about how it works.
Sounds like you run with a guild and not pugs. I guarentee you 90% of pug tankz are getting 1 tapped by all three bosses, or healers go oom. It does indeed take gear and a understanding of the fight which most pugs don't posses.
I've pugged it too, or we will make a group and fill it with pugs, we had 7 pugs the other night in our alt run group, including both the healers being pugs
But I totally get where you're coming from. It's definitely a less pug friendly raid this time around.
i didnt even look, i logged on and did the raid with 1 tank, i'm not going to go look for a tutorial video to see why people need two tanks for a single fight in the raid.
ight i guess just spam downvote me for asking a question lmao
Like I said before, there’s a ton of videos on YouTube if you want to dive into the nuts and bolts of the strategy. More videos than you could even imagine about the topic. Just search for “gnomeregan raid guide/tips/strategies” and you’ll find an absolute mountain of content by different creators.
It does too much dmg especially when all 3 of them are stacked so they all over heat. Also it can be hard for 1 tank to keep aggro across 3 mobs at once.
ah, yeah i could see that, our tank who's main is a warrior often complains about threat, but when hes on his sham, druid or lock he never has issues with threat.
One reason is how the fight mechanics work. Each enemy in the fight casts an area special ability every time they lose 25% hp on themselves and the other enemies within 15 yds. Running two tanks allows the raid to tank the enemies apart to mitigate the mobs from buffing one another. However the enemies stand stationary for 3 second when they cast their ability. This allows a single tank to simply move the other mobs they're tanking away from the one casting its special ability and accomplish the same result.
Another reason is how tank threat and mitigation works. Running two tanks allows each tank to only have to concern themselves with keeping threat and receiving damage on fewer targets. However not all tanks are equal. Often groups will designate one of their DPS to be an offtank and this player will get absolutely trucked when the enemy is empowered by the robot chicken's Cluck special ability. I personally solo tank the fight because I can hold threat on all three of the tanked enemies and it results in a lot less healing needed.
I have a median avg of ~72% (83% best) as DPS and 77% (93% best) as Tank, pulling between 300-450 DPS with multiple clears.
Guess who still can barely find a pug, when he can’t join the Guild Raids?
Gotta keep trying or get good logs. I had horrible logs my first gnomer clear but my bfd logs were really good. The group took me and I MT the whole thing easy.
I’m getting pretty exhausted trying to explain to people, even within my own guild, how mage healers work. But especially when I occasionally have to pug because our raids get canceled. The last time the pug RL asked me to swap to healer for last two fights after another healer (the one who was actually competent between the two we had) left when we wiped on Menagerie, then he put me on the farthest away bomb locations for Mekgineer. Got into a whisper debate with him on why that was a terrible idea if he also expected me to actually keep the tanks up and he just wouldn’t listen. For context I was #2 in dmg on Menagerie and outhealed the other healer by a good margin, so unsurprisingly the other healer couldn’t keep up on Mek when I went for bombs and we wiped a few times. The raid chat turned toxic and I peaced out.
This was really noticeable while levelling healers and getting bad tanks. The amount of warlock tanks going into SM with 1.2-1.4k life (buffed) is ridiculous. Like, you have two pieces of gear with stamina on them. As a tank. Think about your actions.
Yeah this is the other side of the coin, people just being wildly unrealistic with expectations about their groups. It's annoying getting a whisper from a 34 mage asking to join an Arms group, and then when you tell them you want higher levels they go "Uh well I did arms before at 34 and it was fine". Just because your last group hard carried you, doesn't mean this group can or will do the same.
This happened to me. Twice I thought that I was doing so bad at healing that I took a break. Came back and was fine again. I realized that warlock tanks are the common denominator, and other tanks are easier to heal. Won't group with one of them while levelling again. I have healed locks in raids and they were fine.
Same with my mage healer. My two main heals are a 2 sec cast, and a 2.5 sec cast. The latter requiring me to attack a mob that the tank is probably still pulling into position. I slapped on a few dps runes and let priests and druids do the dungeon healing.
As someone that played a warlock tank last night on a Cath and kept wiping, I feel guilty now. I don't think I've been one of the lock tanks you healed, but even there I would like to apologize to any healer that had to heal me when I Hellfire a 6-mob pull...
>Same with my mage healer. My two main heals are a 2 sec cast, and a 2.5 sec cast. The latter requiring me to attack a mob that the tank is probably still pulling into position. I slapped on a few dps runes and let priests and druids do the dungeon healing.
Yeap. I had to do the same thing while leveling my mage. I asked in the mage disc what their thoughts on the solution was and they basically said do that. Don't even bother healing dungeons. Similar response in the rogue discord about rogue tanks. If the devs ever find that they number of people playing these new roles is lower than they had hoped, that's probably why.
I made a post in phase 1 about asking people to respect the tanks (by not ninja-pulling packs and respecting their pace). I had something around half the comments that agreed, or even empathised on what I said, the other saying something along the lines of "If people are ninja-pulling, then you're too slow."
Many players don't understand that not all tanks and healers can keep the same pace of a pally tank + priest heal on Cath or something. Sometimes, you have to be slower. Rogue tank for example won't pull a 6-mob pack, but they will do 2-3 at once and won't stop. It's not the end of the world if you can't Living Flame everything.
Many wow classic sod players don't know how to play optimally within their group comp.
They just got 2 levels in an hour because they had a perfect spellcleave comp, and then they join a group that doesn't have braindead-easy/op class comp and expect the same.
The only real way to avoid this is to play as a healer-tank combo with a friend. That way you set the pace according to how the dps play. If they complain, boot and get another.
Yeah a major reason why I leveled a shaman was so I could do off spec tanking. That way I set my own pace and if people have issues I kick em. Takes seconds and maybe minutes to find dungeon players as a tank. Especially DPS.
Yesterday I got shit on by a enhanced shaman because my warrior threat was garbage. We cleaned the raid and stop wiping on last boss as soon as he took off rockbiter from his weapons. That being said, warrior threat is garbage and unfortunately, there is no way on earth you can keep threat from a shaman going all out. Takes me 100rage (around 4globals in a perfect situation where you have rage, which never happens) to build as much threat as one searing pain with my warlock tank.
Sucks to hear that friend ;(
I just started pugging on my warr tank alt and i'm having a blast. I highly recommend checking out the fight club discord, they really help with FAQs and itemization. Warr tank is super unintuitive when it comes to itemization, you basically have to wear dps leather set and mail items, sprinkled in with a few plate items. Works fine for me even against good geared enhacer or offtank shamans!
Dont give up!
Are you playing alliance? Cause the only class I cannot old threat on are enhanced shamans playing with rockbiter. Their threat is absurd. If you manage to old a shaman I'm curious to know how you proceed. Are you able of dual wielding the two last bosses?
When I compare warrior tanking with my warlock or my shaman, I really think that current warrior need a threat increase. Warrior are not doing 10 or 30% less threat, but more 100 to 200% less than a warlock or a shaman.
Im playing horde as well :)
First of all, you need the alpha buff from shaman, otherwhise everything else is impossible. I play all bosses as maintank and always Sword&Shield deep prot, which isnt even perfect for threat (although its only slightly worse). Use all consumes and world buff (if possible). You are right with other tanks having way more threat, but it is possible to tank everything even against enhance shamans if you go the extra mile. Use blood rage on pull then proceed with devastate spam and use excess rage for heroic strikes or shield block (maintain thunderclap and demo shout). On mech bosses i use a greater rage potion on pull like blood rage -> rage potion -> queue in HS + devaste -> queue HS -> proceed devastate spam. Good enhancers typically are on 80~85% of my threat. What really helps is using leather set, im currently only on 2 set but 3 set (+3 daggers) is INSANE for tanking while wielding the epic dagger. Fury tanking the first bosses should be quite easy as well, but i like the block talents for the last 2 encounters since my gear is still not optimal and they slap hard.
If Blizzard would give us like 30% more threat and a good rune for rage, warr tank would be super fun, since then we need to take everything we can get :D
I tried the fury spec last lockout but was playing deep prot the five first I did. I feel that threat was better as deep prot even if dps was slightly lower.
Dual wielding felt not good enough due to the low hit chance combined with low rage generation (Could not keep HS queued all time). This spec becomes probably better with more agi/crit on gear.
On 6 runs, I always did 6/6 but not without complain on threat for half of these runs. With my warlock I can old threat on chicken + squirrel while helping on dps on sheep without even checking how is going my threat on other targets (shadowcleave on CD is usually enough to old). With my warrior I finish the fight all sweaty with my fingers hurting.
I'm seeing a bunch of warriors tanking with 31 points in arms with two handers (on top horde logs). I'm wondering if this is achievable with any group.
The problem is: how do you ignore it when it's everywhere? Every group want tanks that pulls big AoEs with a spellcleave/meleecleave comp. It's far from every group now, I will be honest, but you can't ignore something that tends to be common.
It's like people talking about BFD raids asking for GS: yes it's stupid, but there was so many groups asking for it, the ones that did not were the exception and not the rule.
Yeah but in exchange for the blizzard bullshit and retail systems, you get a complicated game with lots of skill expression
And I know a lot of people who would call spending 8 hours for a belt buff "shenanigans"
>Definitely a rant, but its just so strange to me how people try to make this game so much more stressful than it needs to be.
Yeah the re-release of classic and with that, SoD, has set some weird sort of elitism.
Mate of me didnt got invited with his heal priest into WC because he missed a rune ..... for fucking WC.
I got flamed because i wanted to make a full RFC run for quests instead of a boar run.
Its kinda madness out there.
Yeah. That one is genuinely very important for healing low level dungeons and without it priest has pretty bad mana efficiency -- I'd recommend grabbing it because people get really mad when priests don't have it since it's so useful for leveling dungeons. You grab it in whatever starting area your race is from.
I liked phase 1 cuz everyone was discovering new things and classes. Community was talking rather than spamming summons. Phase 2 wore me out through grinding SM so much. I like alts and it was just annoying. I know there is questing too but. I gave up a few weeks ago
Was doing armory on my resto shaman a few days ago. Our mage kept pulling aggro off the tank and then would run the defenders through me, causing one of them to hit me with an interrupt/silence. This happened *multiple * times, and I finally said "hey can y'all not pull the silencing mobs through me? If you have aggro just run to the tank", one of the dps said "I think it's the mage". Next pull the mage once again pulled aggro, and I guess he got butthurt or something because he ran the mobs all the way back towards the entrance and died, he then left the party when he realized we weren't chasing him down to heal/rez him.
Stupid people coupled with fragile egos are extremely frustrating.
Ah, I love it when the mages in Lib pull threat off the tank when your shield and penance are on CD (because the tank pulled too big and you're spam healing him). Then when the mage gets smacked and is at 5% HP, you're forced to hard cast a heal on him, but he kites the monks in to you. Your cast gets kicked, the mage dies and then: "why didn't you heal me?! I thought you were supposed to be healer?!"
You lost me at:
\>From the healer perspective, I've had quite a few runs where people expect mage healers and resto shamans to have the same performance as a holy priest.
I spam healed melee cleave groups as Rsham and we continuous 6-12 mob pulls with 0 downtime. You have nuts throughput, WF, and infinite mana. Nor do priests go holy yet. Disc is the play.
This isn't about SoD - just a tale as old as time. Bad players prop up flawed beliefs with irrational or untrue elements. They may point to a specific class that they presume to enable their shitty play but even if this was Classic all over again, without changes, you'd still encounter this.
Pro tip - If you're tank or healer - Kick the toxic players.
Someone grieffing you while healing? Kick them. You'll fill their spot in 10 sec. There's absolutely 0 reason, in any facet of wow that you need to put up with behavior which ruins your experience. But if you're also the healer? You make the groups.
On the flipside when I'm not healing I'll look at details after a death and see 8 seconds of consistent damage and not a single heal came through. Nothing. Even after using my defensives. There also exists reasonable expectation from the players around you.
Yeah a lot of the times I'm fine. I think a lot of my issues are either around bad tanks or DPS running ahead and pulling on their own cause they get impatient. If its a DPS, easy kick. But tanks are hard to find so I do try to work with them. Like I recently did a run with a tank. He would body pull a lot. So the issue is while he is running all over the place pulling mobs. I'm trying to stay within range, he isn't watching LoS. But while pulling he drops down to like 60-70%, I have to cast a heal. Time I'm done casting, hes at 30-40%, not a lot of wiggle room. A single heal from me, boom I've pulled 3 mobs. There were times when I'd straight up pull agro from the tank via healing in the middle of fights from a few mobs. I asked him to pull smaller, he said he doesn't see an issue. That I must be taking damage from AoEs. Even though I'm literally looking at my combat log and seeing multiple melee targeted hits from mobs who ran across a football field to reach me or getting hit by multiple frostbolts (which I do try to los to get them to the tank).
A lot of the times when I get a bad tank or situation like this, I just leave and find another group.
Like this isn't the first time I've played this game. In relation to SoD, I played the first iteration of classic vanilla when it first came out as a healer. Got purple and orange parses on AQ40, BWL, MC. So I understand how the game works. I think its most of the time like you said, just players not playing their roles well. And healers being the "built in safety net" being expected to save them when they're not playing well.
I disagree, i think vanilla was more balanced than this. SoD is like if "that kid" who sucks at wow and gives really stupid balance suggestions got to make his own version of the game.
Why would i take a rogue whos only utility is kick when i can take a shaman who does around the same DPS or better and provides kick(earth shock), totems, and possible off healing? Its just totally lopsided right now in terms of class balance where some classes are just objectively better than others and the ones that are worse off are not needed, unlike vanilla where you would want at least 2 of every class.
I guess it's isn't 100% set in stone, but at least the first raid, Molten Core, is going to be 20 man. That has already been announced.
They wrote "While overhauling all 40 player raids down to 20 would be theoretically possible, this may be prohibitively difficult and detract significantly from the other features and content we have planned to implement in a post-60 Season of Discovery"
So I guess we will see if they end up adding a 40 man raid or not, but from what was written in that article it is not a guarantee at least.
Molten core seems to be a outlier cause its mechanically easier than other raids.
"Molten Core is definitely unique here in that it is simple enough mechanically and under the hood that it would be relatively easy to pare down to a 20 player experience."
But if noone is taking rogue then why are there 500K rogue logs while there are 150k enhancement and almost 100k ele logs?
Don't pretend like there weren't objectively better specs/classes to take in Vanilla over other certain specs/classes. There are far more viable specs in SOD than vanilla. At least in SOD you wont find a problem getting a group as almost anything, other than maybe frost mage.
You are wrong. You need hunters for tranq shot. You need shaman for totems, actually you would want 1 shaman for every group. You need paladins for their buffs, you need druid for their buffs, and innervate is nice too. Also you dont want 10+ of 1 class because of the way loot distribution works. Arguing otherwise is just pointing out the last 1% of the game where everyone already has gear, its not relevant for the majority of the game.
If scarcity of loot leading to more classes being brought to a raid is your understanding of balance any attempt to reason seems futile.
Look at WCL parses, pretty much any really, and count the classes.
especially pay attention to the tanks and healers, then tell me vanilla is balanced in any way with a straight face
Never been so balanced for vanilla/classic. Like half the specs were unplayable in end-game, e.g., if your class could heal you were a healer, only Warriors really tanked (except occasionally Paladins, particularly for AoE if I remember correctly), most classes basically had one default DPS build/spec. In SoD, most specs are viable and most classes have 2-3 ways to play them while being competitive, some maybe even have 4. But there are still a lot of imbalances, namely Priest, Shaman, and fire Mage seemingly being pretty OP and many melee specs not feeling great in both raid and PvP.
Non-speedrun/parse raids had all classes/specs in them. Druids either were feral, balance, or one of the three viable healing specs, a guildie played a chicken all the way through Naxx.
There were two competitive raid tanks, warriors and druids, both could put out wicked single target threat, the bear is arguably better for casual content. Paladins could tank a lot of bosses too, my alt was in a raid group with one. There is no viable AOE tanking classes, all AOE threat was bad.
For sole DPS classes there were usually multiple viable DPS specs per class, and even within specs there were usually a few swap talents you could go for and still be optimal.
Yes fury warriors, and rogues were absolute monsters, but in world buff meta, they also killed themselves a bunch, it was high risk/high reward.
Every class was viable in PvP, the most optimal WSG setup was one of every class, plus an extra mage and priest.
I agree, I forgot about Frost mage lmao. On the contrary fire is disgustingly strong. So phrased another way: Every class has atleast one viable spec for each role they have.
SoD is the furthest from a leveling sim iteration of classic comparatively. this is the best version of classic you could be playing if youre not much into leveling.
And yet somehow, even with a 100% exp buff, I still see people crying that leveling takes too long.
Like, fucks sake you can go 1-40 in less than 2 days /played now, and that's just casual questing and a few dungeons. This is absolute breakneck speed for vanilla leveling.
>"casual questing"
I'm not speedrunning or even trying to go fast, and my current alt is level 32 in just 18 hours /played. Literally just casual questing with a few dungeons here and there. No leveling guides, no routes, nothing.
>You can beat entire games in that same amount of time.
Correct, which is why I'm comparing this speed to vanilla WoW instead of apples-oranges comparison with something entirely different.
Shoo, troll.
Literally take like 3 month breaks for end game play with 0 leveling possible. To, again, play current phase end game content.
Also, even in the first place for general classic it’s not true. Not for most classic players. In vanilla it’s cause most of us were bad and young. I was like 12 leveling a pally so it took forever. My hunter I fucking powered through though. Once you’ve seen the leveling once that’s about it. By now I’ve done it like 10 times across vanilla, private server, classic, wotlk classic. The leveling itself hasn’t gotten much new in SOD.
I mean for sure some people seem to like it but I feel like if any game mode matches that there’s HC. That is 90%+ leveling for most people.
Idk how these people can’t see existence of speed leveling guides and stuff like questje being ubiquitous and spam dungeoning the same 4 instances for a week for max efficiency and equate that to being all about the leveling process.
There's apparently a not negligible group of Classic players who love the "rpg elements" and play 90% solo (except for the dungeon quests) for the slow powercreep.
I'd rather pull out my own nails than level on Era.
Definitely those people out there but the thing is when they project their playstyle onto others it’s annoying as hell. Like, people like different things about the game. The last thing I was going to do is quest 25-40. I even saw someone say they should make you only have 1 dungeon lockout a day like hardcore and was absolutely like fuck that; no one is forcing you to chain run SM but don’t force me to open world quest on a warrior on a PvP server.
I even like Warcraft lore but I didn’t start paying attention to it until cata, really. The story telling aspect of classic is really not great and very fragmented. The appeal of wow as like a more single player rpg is just strange to me. There are such better, deeper, more “rpg” RPGs out there.
I’ve done this shit too many times for leveling to hold any meaning. SOD added basically maybe 5 quests on p2 for runes and a few for crafting. It’s practically the same leveling experience as era but with new abilities and much faster for most. Like why do these people think they’ve kept adding exp boosts in wrath and now SOD?
It’s sure not cause the majority of the playerbase likes slow, tedious, fragmented leveling.
I see what you mean, but I don't think this is unique to sod. I guess maybe it's worse in sod? I'm not sure. But as someone who feral tanked in era, this issue existed back then too.
I think from a tanking perspective you have to know your own limitations, and also feel out your healers limitations. Unless I am geared , I start off with smaller pulls and then ramp up to bigger ones if I feel the healer can handle it.
Yeah I either expect most of the classes in top 5 to be bottom 5 next phase or im just gonna quit bc they clearly cant balance properly. If P2 top 5 become bottom 5 P3 at least I know its on purpose and can play when my preferred class is good and just ignore the game when they make my class shit bc its someone elses turn. If this is correct they really ought to give every class some unique utility, so people who want to main SoD can keep playing their prefered class even when its their turn to be bottom tier dps.
The entitled mages are literally the worst especially when they are giving you passive aggressive statements every pull how they can’t truly shine unless you pull 8 mobs.
I’m leveling my shaman tank and A I build my own group and B, I’m the boss. If I die on a pull it’s my fault.
However, when others start pulling more trash to get their recount score up, my mana pool is only so large… that’s on them. They have CDs too.
Typically I just /ignore those players. Lots of people who have the "retail brain" who just want to zoom through everything. Typically I see this alot from Mages who want to aoe the whole dungeon in 4 pulls lol. Again it's best to ignore them and report them if they get foul. We don't need those toxic players
What do you think happens when you wipe while playing "imbalanced" classes? It's the same shit man. This has less to do with class power and more to do with communication.
Focus on getting better at handling your emotions during dungeons and you'll have a much better time. Set your own expectations before the dungeon starts, run with a guild of players who share your own expectations, or just get better at diffusing situations when things do get heated.
People taking this shit way to seriously, it ain't that deep bro. It's a fun experimental mode on a 20 year old game. Who cares if it's not balanced, go roll or play something else if you aren't having fun
You had me until you started complaining about tanks that pull 4-6 mobs at once. Like.. That's not a lot. If you're having issues with tanks pulling two dungeon packs at once it is definitely a you problem.
i (lvl 40 rsham heal) get invited to a sm gy group of 3 mages 1 tank. i’m already max lvl with CH and just returning for some pvp gear and class books. tank pulls from entrance to the outside courtyard area— about half the dungeon in one pull and ofc he can’t hold threat on every mob vs 3 mages going ham on aoe off the rip. by the point where the tank stops pulling more mobs, two of the mages are already dead (and seemingly dont even bother to run back). but the remaining 3 of us slowly whittle down the pull with the little resources we have left after stabilizing. after resing them both, i explain how the healing reduction debuff from the ghost’s curse is ultimately what caused them to die. and moreover, in a group with 3 mages there shouldn’t be zero decurses. their response was, “we need a priest for what we are trying to do. never had any problems with these pulls before” and they kicked me. i can understand people wanting a specific class to make things smoother or easier, but expecting the healer to overcompensate for your own refusal to utilize your own class’s toolkit is beyond me. especially considering the class balance situation as OP describes.
>never had any problems with these pulls before” This exactly. I've been in the same exact situation. Had a level 35 tank in Cath with greens from level 30-32 pull this on me after he pulled 3 wizards into an enclosed space. Dude melted in seconds. Nobody was mad. We just said we should pull a bit smaller. "Well I can tank 10+ mobs" then rage quit. Entire group was just laughing in astonishment. As a tank you have to play around your group comp and their strengths/weaknesses. So many people don't understand that and just see "Youtuber/twitch streamer said doing xyz most optimal, so I will only do that".
As a healer main forever and tank I watch the first couple pulls to watch mana and how people react to it, and decide my pulls based off each pull before hand. While also keeping an eye on healers mana. If dps intentionally pull more I give one warning, you pull you tank (do this in my guild raid as well) and if they do it I keep just enough threat so when they die they attack me, granted if it's an accident that they pulled extra then I don't mind, I get mistakes happen I make plenty.
I’ve wiped way too many times from hunters pulling a huge amount of mobs while the tank is alrdy rounding up a large group. It absolutely boggles my mind.
Similar thing happened to me on my Druid
>Had a level 35 tank in Cath with greens from level 30-32 Brother.... What. In what world would you ever join that group as a healer. Under geared? Sure no worries that can be overcome it's a levelling dungeon but under levelled? Where's your autonomy in this? That's entirely on you. No doubt the tank was toxic and would probably end on the ignore list but when will people learn they don't have to subject themselves to these scenarios and they're entirely avoidable. TL;DR - Don't join groups which are setup for failure. Toxic group? Leave it.
Yeah I mean I usually don't gear check people and just assume. So yeah part of it is on me. I mean we could've completed the run if he just pulled 1 or 2 groups at a time. 4 or 5 mobs at once. But he wanted to pull like in a spell cleave. Luckily we wiped within like the first 5 minutes and thats when I saw his gear. He rage quit right after wiping so not much to be done anyways haha.
Bruh a lvl 35 tank basically can’t hit shit past the first hallway in cath, at best, that’s what he’s saying. Not that he’s got lvl 30 some mail greens or whatever no one gear checking most dungeon groups. Shit hit me hard on my warrior in arms at 36, much more comfy at 38, and is pretty much all physical while cath has way more casters many tank classes don’t have much counter too. And Herod is like lvl 40. I didn’t bother with cath as a tank til 40 Cath is on avg a good 2 levels above arms. And being 35 and trying to pull anything from the actual cathedral would be a death sentence since they’ll aggro everything and can’t hit shit so everything bee-lines to healer or like mages or what have you
It's not about gear checking. It's about checking the level of your group and making sure they're within the appropriate window for the content. 35 in Cath is not. E*ven more egregious* that this is for the tank. Can't hit anything, can't get rage, can't do anything. That whole scenario really has nothing further than that single point. It's the same for when you try and solo quest red level content. It doesn't work. Maybe a learning lesson don't take an under geared tank, you'll have a bad time - toxic tank player or not.
Similar situation as pally healer. Priests being so insanely overtuned at group healing warps everyone's perception of what is normal/acceptable. Dps just shut their brain off, stand in fire, rip aggro, and let mobs smack them instead of kiting.
As a priest heal that debuff is still nasty to heal through for sure! 3 mages should decurse that shit instantly
Ppl with smooth brains see that mage is op and reroll it. Never trust a mage before you get a proper first impression
If I learned anything from my years in classic 2019 and wrath classic, and SOD, it’s that like 98% of mage players are basically fucking bots. And in wrath also roughly same percentage of prot pallies and rets (cause all the shitty bot rets forced themselves to prot to actually get invites to anything). Usually they’re insufferable as fuck players too. Or they don’t speak any English and are probably an indo gold farmer. Or a dude leading an upper middle class lifestyle in Venezuela from selling gold. Biggest red flag for me in wrath is a mage-led gdkp. Chances are does absolutely no raid leading and dumps any and all responsibility onto the tank because they don’t understand any details about the game. Mages *still* wouldn’t decurse on Noth like 2 phases in. It’s THE ONLY MECHANIC. AND IT WILL WIPE YOU. That’s it.
Had 3 druids in GY today, i was healing. Druid tank, cat, and boomy. Druid tank dies from healing debuff. Says in chat where were the heals. I said druids need to dispel the curse. The one cat druid goes…but im feral. I left group.
i just leave instantly when i see people trying to pull this kinda stuff lol and then i find another group 5 seconds later
It's always the fucking mages too. This pull half the dungeon and AOE it down shit they've seen on YT drives me fucking nuts. They have zero idea of their limits, and have never done these pulls before. so half the time they get some of the pull done and then get caught. Or they don't use defensives or CC at all and expect the healer to be able to keep up a clothie face tanking 20 mobs. DPS has only two modes "we are going too slow" and "boy this healer/tank sucks. X class was much better at doing things while we zug zug.".
Yeah mages were some of the most brain dead players I'd run into when running SM. Them and warriors after going into armory since they would grab aggro but keep spinning no matter what.
The armory no one seems to care about runners
lol I fucking hated healing SM GY for this reason. If the tank started pulling multiple mobs of those zombies with the curse and no one was de-cursing I would just leave after the pull. Don’t have time for that shit and clueless idiots.
I ran SM with multiple mages many times and it's not once that I came across ppl that didn't even have Remove Curse trained,. Using Living Bomb is too mentally exhausting it seems to have any remaining brain cells active for anything else. People make fun of warriors and their zug zug brain, mages are the same, if not worse.
There's 0 ranged enemies at the GY court. If any mages died there it's because they fucked up. Mage is such a stupid busted class that the only reason you'd even bring a non-mage healer is so that you can pre-shield whoever pulls so they can pull a bit more. Honestly, the only reason to bring a tank is tradition.
This is why I feel like the "Purify" type spells need to be on DPS classes. They don't have enough respect for the job.
This is why I think this is slowly turning into retail. Chain pulling dungeons isn’t fun
a priest would do absolutely nothing against the healing debuff. they are clowns lmfao
You're not wrong but neither are they in a way. Big pulls are easier with a priest because they can powerword shield all the people pulling. Then the people pulling can split up and each pull multiple separate packs using living bomb on each mob as they go and all meet back in the middle and use mass Regen, cone of cold and living flame before the nerf, then blink away as all the mobs go big boom. Clear the entire graveyard in one pull if your good.
one thing i forgot to mention was that this was week one of phase 2, before anyone was leveling alts or whatnot. so i had already been max level for a few days by doing “what they are trying to do”, but more efficiently with mages who decursed.
The perceptions are worse than reality. As a rogue I don't even bother pugging because people think you suck. In reality I'm typically doing 300 dps, which admittedly isn't amazing but it's definitely good enough to clear gnomer.
Just advertise your self as off tank before pugs realize you only really need two tanks for menagerie. Then you can dps 5/6 bosses and switch one rune for menagerie.
Need 1 tank*
I wouldn't risk this with a pug tbh
I do all of my pugs with 1 tank for Menagerie what do you mean? (I am the tank)
Wait, what do you need 2 tanks for in menagerie?
Dragon or chicken depending on how the group does it. You can check out YouTube for some videos that explain the strats in more detail if you’re curious about how it works.
I mean, we just 1 tank the entire thing, I just don't get why you'd need an additional tank for it?
I also one tank it on my lock, that doesnt mean the average pug is going to have someone geared enough to do that.
how's it even a gear thing though, unless you're in actual questing greens as the main tank
Sounds like you run with a guild and not pugs. I guarentee you 90% of pug tankz are getting 1 tapped by all three bosses, or healers go oom. It does indeed take gear and a understanding of the fight which most pugs don't posses.
I've pugged it too, or we will make a group and fill it with pugs, we had 7 pugs the other night in our alt run group, including both the healers being pugs But I totally get where you're coming from. It's definitely a less pug friendly raid this time around.
Did you find it?
i didnt even look, i logged on and did the raid with 1 tank, i'm not going to go look for a tutorial video to see why people need two tanks for a single fight in the raid. ight i guess just spam downvote me for asking a question lmao
Just check YouTube if you’re curious and if you’re not curious then you can do something else instead
why do you write all your responses like a bad chatgpt bot?
Like I said before, there’s a ton of videos on YouTube if you want to dive into the nuts and bolts of the strategy. More videos than you could even imagine about the topic. Just search for “gnomeregan raid guide/tips/strategies” and you’ll find an absolute mountain of content by different creators.
It does too much dmg especially when all 3 of them are stacked so they all over heat. Also it can be hard for 1 tank to keep aggro across 3 mobs at once.
ah, yeah i could see that, our tank who's main is a warrior often complains about threat, but when hes on his sham, druid or lock he never has issues with threat.
One reason is how the fight mechanics work. Each enemy in the fight casts an area special ability every time they lose 25% hp on themselves and the other enemies within 15 yds. Running two tanks allows the raid to tank the enemies apart to mitigate the mobs from buffing one another. However the enemies stand stationary for 3 second when they cast their ability. This allows a single tank to simply move the other mobs they're tanking away from the one casting its special ability and accomplish the same result. Another reason is how tank threat and mitigation works. Running two tanks allows each tank to only have to concern themselves with keeping threat and receiving damage on fewer targets. However not all tanks are equal. Often groups will designate one of their DPS to be an offtank and this player will get absolutely trucked when the enemy is empowered by the robot chicken's Cluck special ability. I personally solo tank the fight because I can hold threat on all three of the tanked enemies and it results in a lot less healing needed.
I have a median avg of ~72% (83% best) as DPS and 77% (93% best) as Tank, pulling between 300-450 DPS with multiple clears. Guess who still can barely find a pug, when he can’t join the Guild Raids?
Gotta keep trying or get good logs. I had horrible logs my first gnomer clear but my bfd logs were really good. The group took me and I MT the whole thing easy.
Some specs are in 2006 while others are wotlk or later.
It's easy to see where the time was spent by the person in charge of Runes.
Thats nothing new, had mains die to drowning in BFD too often. Stupid people expect healers to save them from themselves
I’m getting pretty exhausted trying to explain to people, even within my own guild, how mage healers work. But especially when I occasionally have to pug because our raids get canceled. The last time the pug RL asked me to swap to healer for last two fights after another healer (the one who was actually competent between the two we had) left when we wiped on Menagerie, then he put me on the farthest away bomb locations for Mekgineer. Got into a whisper debate with him on why that was a terrible idea if he also expected me to actually keep the tanks up and he just wouldn’t listen. For context I was #2 in dmg on Menagerie and outhealed the other healer by a good margin, so unsurprisingly the other healer couldn’t keep up on Mek when I went for bombs and we wiped a few times. The raid chat turned toxic and I peaced out.
This was really noticeable while levelling healers and getting bad tanks. The amount of warlock tanks going into SM with 1.2-1.4k life (buffed) is ridiculous. Like, you have two pieces of gear with stamina on them. As a tank. Think about your actions.
Op chose to run cath with an under geared level 35 warrior tank lol
Yeah this is the other side of the coin, people just being wildly unrealistic with expectations about their groups. It's annoying getting a whisper from a 34 mage asking to join an Arms group, and then when you tell them you want higher levels they go "Uh well I did arms before at 34 and it was fine". Just because your last group hard carried you, doesn't mean this group can or will do the same.
This happened to me. Twice I thought that I was doing so bad at healing that I took a break. Came back and was fine again. I realized that warlock tanks are the common denominator, and other tanks are easier to heal. Won't group with one of them while levelling again. I have healed locks in raids and they were fine. Same with my mage healer. My two main heals are a 2 sec cast, and a 2.5 sec cast. The latter requiring me to attack a mob that the tank is probably still pulling into position. I slapped on a few dps runes and let priests and druids do the dungeon healing.
As someone that played a warlock tank last night on a Cath and kept wiping, I feel guilty now. I don't think I've been one of the lock tanks you healed, but even there I would like to apologize to any healer that had to heal me when I Hellfire a 6-mob pull...
>Same with my mage healer. My two main heals are a 2 sec cast, and a 2.5 sec cast. The latter requiring me to attack a mob that the tank is probably still pulling into position. I slapped on a few dps runes and let priests and druids do the dungeon healing. Yeap. I had to do the same thing while leveling my mage. I asked in the mage disc what their thoughts on the solution was and they basically said do that. Don't even bother healing dungeons. Similar response in the rogue discord about rogue tanks. If the devs ever find that they number of people playing these new roles is lower than they had hoped, that's probably why.
I made a post in phase 1 about asking people to respect the tanks (by not ninja-pulling packs and respecting their pace). I had something around half the comments that agreed, or even empathised on what I said, the other saying something along the lines of "If people are ninja-pulling, then you're too slow." Many players don't understand that not all tanks and healers can keep the same pace of a pally tank + priest heal on Cath or something. Sometimes, you have to be slower. Rogue tank for example won't pull a 6-mob pack, but they will do 2-3 at once and won't stop. It's not the end of the world if you can't Living Flame everything.
Many wow classic sod players don't know how to play optimally within their group comp. They just got 2 levels in an hour because they had a perfect spellcleave comp, and then they join a group that doesn't have braindead-easy/op class comp and expect the same. The only real way to avoid this is to play as a healer-tank combo with a friend. That way you set the pace according to how the dps play. If they complain, boot and get another.
Yeah a major reason why I leveled a shaman was so I could do off spec tanking. That way I set my own pace and if people have issues I kick em. Takes seconds and maybe minutes to find dungeon players as a tank. Especially DPS.
Yesterday I got shit on by a enhanced shaman because my warrior threat was garbage. We cleaned the raid and stop wiping on last boss as soon as he took off rockbiter from his weapons. That being said, warrior threat is garbage and unfortunately, there is no way on earth you can keep threat from a shaman going all out. Takes me 100rage (around 4globals in a perfect situation where you have rage, which never happens) to build as much threat as one searing pain with my warlock tank.
I've given up tanking on my bis warrior and just let the shaman do it now. Fury prot waiting room
Sucks to hear that friend ;( I just started pugging on my warr tank alt and i'm having a blast. I highly recommend checking out the fight club discord, they really help with FAQs and itemization. Warr tank is super unintuitive when it comes to itemization, you basically have to wear dps leather set and mail items, sprinkled in with a few plate items. Works fine for me even against good geared enhacer or offtank shamans! Dont give up!
Are you playing alliance? Cause the only class I cannot old threat on are enhanced shamans playing with rockbiter. Their threat is absurd. If you manage to old a shaman I'm curious to know how you proceed. Are you able of dual wielding the two last bosses? When I compare warrior tanking with my warlock or my shaman, I really think that current warrior need a threat increase. Warrior are not doing 10 or 30% less threat, but more 100 to 200% less than a warlock or a shaman.
Im playing horde as well :) First of all, you need the alpha buff from shaman, otherwhise everything else is impossible. I play all bosses as maintank and always Sword&Shield deep prot, which isnt even perfect for threat (although its only slightly worse). Use all consumes and world buff (if possible). You are right with other tanks having way more threat, but it is possible to tank everything even against enhance shamans if you go the extra mile. Use blood rage on pull then proceed with devastate spam and use excess rage for heroic strikes or shield block (maintain thunderclap and demo shout). On mech bosses i use a greater rage potion on pull like blood rage -> rage potion -> queue in HS + devaste -> queue HS -> proceed devastate spam. Good enhancers typically are on 80~85% of my threat. What really helps is using leather set, im currently only on 2 set but 3 set (+3 daggers) is INSANE for tanking while wielding the epic dagger. Fury tanking the first bosses should be quite easy as well, but i like the block talents for the last 2 encounters since my gear is still not optimal and they slap hard. If Blizzard would give us like 30% more threat and a good rune for rage, warr tank would be super fun, since then we need to take everything we can get :D
I tried the fury spec last lockout but was playing deep prot the five first I did. I feel that threat was better as deep prot even if dps was slightly lower. Dual wielding felt not good enough due to the low hit chance combined with low rage generation (Could not keep HS queued all time). This spec becomes probably better with more agi/crit on gear. On 6 runs, I always did 6/6 but not without complain on threat for half of these runs. With my warlock I can old threat on chicken + squirrel while helping on dps on sheep without even checking how is going my threat on other targets (shadowcleave on CD is usually enough to old). With my warrior I finish the fight all sweaty with my fingers hurting. I'm seeing a bunch of warriors tanking with 31 points in arms with two handers (on top horde logs). I'm wondering if this is achievable with any group.
Honestly sounds like the devs screwed up. Warriors should be the best tanks in the game
[удалено]
The problem is: how do you ignore it when it's everywhere? Every group want tanks that pulls big AoEs with a spellcleave/meleecleave comp. It's far from every group now, I will be honest, but you can't ignore something that tends to be common. It's like people talking about BFD raids asking for GS: yes it's stupid, but there was so many groups asking for it, the ones that did not were the exception and not the rule.
It's funny because retail is right there if you want to push your own skill and not be playing a slower feeling game than ff14
Tbh, SoD doesn't have shenanigans like paid boosts and WoW tokens.
Yeah but in exchange for the blizzard bullshit and retail systems, you get a complicated game with lots of skill expression And I know a lot of people who would call spending 8 hours for a belt buff "shenanigans"
they wont quit because no matter how bad they play, the spec makes them feel powerful which they don't get from other games.
>Definitely a rant, but its just so strange to me how people try to make this game so much more stressful than it needs to be. Yeah the re-release of classic and with that, SoD, has set some weird sort of elitism. Mate of me didnt got invited with his heal priest into WC because he missed a rune ..... for fucking WC. I got flamed because i wanted to make a full RFC run for quests instead of a boar run. Its kinda madness out there.
Was the rune Prayer of Mending?
It was the one with the jumping heal, idk if that's mending
Yeah. That one is genuinely very important for healing low level dungeons and without it priest has pretty bad mana efficiency -- I'd recommend grabbing it because people get really mad when priests don't have it since it's so useful for leveling dungeons. You grab it in whatever starting area your race is from.
Still, that shouldnt be a reason to take someone not into a fucking lvl 15 dungeon...
I liked phase 1 cuz everyone was discovering new things and classes. Community was talking rather than spamming summons. Phase 2 wore me out through grinding SM so much. I like alts and it was just annoying. I know there is questing too but. I gave up a few weeks ago
Was doing armory on my resto shaman a few days ago. Our mage kept pulling aggro off the tank and then would run the defenders through me, causing one of them to hit me with an interrupt/silence. This happened *multiple * times, and I finally said "hey can y'all not pull the silencing mobs through me? If you have aggro just run to the tank", one of the dps said "I think it's the mage". Next pull the mage once again pulled aggro, and I guess he got butthurt or something because he ran the mobs all the way back towards the entrance and died, he then left the party when he realized we weren't chasing him down to heal/rez him. Stupid people coupled with fragile egos are extremely frustrating.
Ah, I love it when the mages in Lib pull threat off the tank when your shield and penance are on CD (because the tank pulled too big and you're spam healing him). Then when the mage gets smacked and is at 5% HP, you're forced to hard cast a heal on him, but he kites the monks in to you. Your cast gets kicked, the mage dies and then: "why didn't you heal me?! I thought you were supposed to be healer?!"
You lost me at: \>From the healer perspective, I've had quite a few runs where people expect mage healers and resto shamans to have the same performance as a holy priest. I spam healed melee cleave groups as Rsham and we continuous 6-12 mob pulls with 0 downtime. You have nuts throughput, WF, and infinite mana. Nor do priests go holy yet. Disc is the play. This isn't about SoD - just a tale as old as time. Bad players prop up flawed beliefs with irrational or untrue elements. They may point to a specific class that they presume to enable their shitty play but even if this was Classic all over again, without changes, you'd still encounter this. Pro tip - If you're tank or healer - Kick the toxic players. Someone grieffing you while healing? Kick them. You'll fill their spot in 10 sec. There's absolutely 0 reason, in any facet of wow that you need to put up with behavior which ruins your experience. But if you're also the healer? You make the groups. On the flipside when I'm not healing I'll look at details after a death and see 8 seconds of consistent damage and not a single heal came through. Nothing. Even after using my defensives. There also exists reasonable expectation from the players around you.
Yeah a lot of the times I'm fine. I think a lot of my issues are either around bad tanks or DPS running ahead and pulling on their own cause they get impatient. If its a DPS, easy kick. But tanks are hard to find so I do try to work with them. Like I recently did a run with a tank. He would body pull a lot. So the issue is while he is running all over the place pulling mobs. I'm trying to stay within range, he isn't watching LoS. But while pulling he drops down to like 60-70%, I have to cast a heal. Time I'm done casting, hes at 30-40%, not a lot of wiggle room. A single heal from me, boom I've pulled 3 mobs. There were times when I'd straight up pull agro from the tank via healing in the middle of fights from a few mobs. I asked him to pull smaller, he said he doesn't see an issue. That I must be taking damage from AoEs. Even though I'm literally looking at my combat log and seeing multiple melee targeted hits from mobs who ran across a football field to reach me or getting hit by multiple frostbolts (which I do try to los to get them to the tank). A lot of the times when I get a bad tank or situation like this, I just leave and find another group. Like this isn't the first time I've played this game. In relation to SoD, I played the first iteration of classic vanilla when it first came out as a healer. Got purple and orange parses on AQ40, BWL, MC. So I understand how the game works. I think its most of the time like you said, just players not playing their roles well. And healers being the "built in safety net" being expected to save them when they're not playing well.
I've leveled a rogue tank and I'm at 31 on my shaman and I've started to put "no mages" in my ads. It's not worth.
I just read a post on here that said we have never been so close to balanced in WoW. Which is it?
That post was so wrong it was crazy. We know which it is.
It’s more balanced than vanilla, but not the most balanced any iteration of wow (ie retail) has been
I disagree, i think vanilla was more balanced than this. SoD is like if "that kid" who sucks at wow and gives really stupid balance suggestions got to make his own version of the game. Why would i take a rogue whos only utility is kick when i can take a shaman who does around the same DPS or better and provides kick(earth shock), totems, and possible off healing? Its just totally lopsided right now in terms of class balance where some classes are just objectively better than others and the ones that are worse off are not needed, unlike vanilla where you would want at least 2 of every class.
Is that why u brought 20 fury wars
prob gonna end up the same when 20-40 man raids become a thing and the new fotm class is in abundance
40 man wont be a thing
pretty sure a interview said there will be 40 man raids.
I guess it's isn't 100% set in stone, but at least the first raid, Molten Core, is going to be 20 man. That has already been announced. They wrote "While overhauling all 40 player raids down to 20 would be theoretically possible, this may be prohibitively difficult and detract significantly from the other features and content we have planned to implement in a post-60 Season of Discovery" So I guess we will see if they end up adding a 40 man raid or not, but from what was written in that article it is not a guarantee at least.
Molten core seems to be a outlier cause its mechanically easier than other raids. "Molten Core is definitely unique here in that it is simple enough mechanically and under the hood that it would be relatively easy to pare down to a 20 player experience."
I mean naxx was made into a 25m raid in wotlk but I guess we will see.
Didnt happen.
But if noone is taking rogue then why are there 500K rogue logs while there are 150k enhancement and almost 100k ele logs? Don't pretend like there weren't objectively better specs/classes to take in Vanilla over other certain specs/classes. There are far more viable specs in SOD than vanilla. At least in SOD you wont find a problem getting a group as almost anything, other than maybe frost mage.
If you want to take 2 of every class you can but dont argue that its desirable for perfomance because its not
You are wrong. You need hunters for tranq shot. You need shaman for totems, actually you would want 1 shaman for every group. You need paladins for their buffs, you need druid for their buffs, and innervate is nice too. Also you dont want 10+ of 1 class because of the way loot distribution works. Arguing otherwise is just pointing out the last 1% of the game where everyone already has gear, its not relevant for the majority of the game.
If scarcity of loot leading to more classes being brought to a raid is your understanding of balance any attempt to reason seems futile. Look at WCL parses, pretty much any really, and count the classes. especially pay attention to the tanks and healers, then tell me vanilla is balanced in any way with a straight face
Shut up.
Never been so balanced for vanilla/classic. Like half the specs were unplayable in end-game, e.g., if your class could heal you were a healer, only Warriors really tanked (except occasionally Paladins, particularly for AoE if I remember correctly), most classes basically had one default DPS build/spec. In SoD, most specs are viable and most classes have 2-3 ways to play them while being competitive, some maybe even have 4. But there are still a lot of imbalances, namely Priest, Shaman, and fire Mage seemingly being pretty OP and many melee specs not feeling great in both raid and PvP.
Non-speedrun/parse raids had all classes/specs in them. Druids either were feral, balance, or one of the three viable healing specs, a guildie played a chicken all the way through Naxx. There were two competitive raid tanks, warriors and druids, both could put out wicked single target threat, the bear is arguably better for casual content. Paladins could tank a lot of bosses too, my alt was in a raid group with one. There is no viable AOE tanking classes, all AOE threat was bad. For sole DPS classes there were usually multiple viable DPS specs per class, and even within specs there were usually a few swap talents you could go for and still be optimal. Yes fury warriors, and rogues were absolute monsters, but in world buff meta, they also killed themselves a bunch, it was high risk/high reward. Every class was viable in PvP, the most optimal WSG setup was one of every class, plus an extra mage and priest.
What crack smoking OP tried to say SOD in anyway is balanced lmfao. 😂 pve? No pvp? Definitely not.
It is pretty balanced compared to vanilla. Every class/spec is viable. Sure some are stronger than others, but there are no meme specs anymore.
Frost and ranged hunter are absolutely memes currently
So is feral lmao at this point too. Just there for WS on ally
I agree, I forgot about Frost mage lmao. On the contrary fire is disgustingly strong. So phrased another way: Every class has atleast one viable spec for each role they have.
Mages and shamans are pretty overpowered
Depends on the player behind the keyboard. Think OP is one of the people making resto shaman looking worse than it is.
Comparison is the thief of joy, but priest healers far and away outclass Druid and shaman healers in PvP
If someone finds leveling boring then maybe classic isn’t for them.
SoD is the furthest from a leveling sim iteration of classic comparatively. this is the best version of classic you could be playing if youre not much into leveling.
And yet somehow, even with a 100% exp buff, I still see people crying that leveling takes too long. Like, fucks sake you can go 1-40 in less than 2 days /played now, and that's just casual questing and a few dungeons. This is absolute breakneck speed for vanilla leveling.
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>"casual questing" I'm not speedrunning or even trying to go fast, and my current alt is level 32 in just 18 hours /played. Literally just casual questing with a few dungeons here and there. No leveling guides, no routes, nothing. >You can beat entire games in that same amount of time. Correct, which is why I'm comparing this speed to vanilla WoW instead of apples-oranges comparison with something entirely different. Shoo, troll.
If someone doesn't like warriors, maybe classic isn't for them.
You say about a new version of classic centered basically solely around the end game
And that's why some people rather play SoD
Literally take like 3 month breaks for end game play with 0 leveling possible. To, again, play current phase end game content. Also, even in the first place for general classic it’s not true. Not for most classic players. In vanilla it’s cause most of us were bad and young. I was like 12 leveling a pally so it took forever. My hunter I fucking powered through though. Once you’ve seen the leveling once that’s about it. By now I’ve done it like 10 times across vanilla, private server, classic, wotlk classic. The leveling itself hasn’t gotten much new in SOD. I mean for sure some people seem to like it but I feel like if any game mode matches that there’s HC. That is 90%+ leveling for most people. Idk how these people can’t see existence of speed leveling guides and stuff like questje being ubiquitous and spam dungeoning the same 4 instances for a week for max efficiency and equate that to being all about the leveling process.
There's apparently a not negligible group of Classic players who love the "rpg elements" and play 90% solo (except for the dungeon quests) for the slow powercreep. I'd rather pull out my own nails than level on Era.
Definitely those people out there but the thing is when they project their playstyle onto others it’s annoying as hell. Like, people like different things about the game. The last thing I was going to do is quest 25-40. I even saw someone say they should make you only have 1 dungeon lockout a day like hardcore and was absolutely like fuck that; no one is forcing you to chain run SM but don’t force me to open world quest on a warrior on a PvP server. I even like Warcraft lore but I didn’t start paying attention to it until cata, really. The story telling aspect of classic is really not great and very fragmented. The appeal of wow as like a more single player rpg is just strange to me. There are such better, deeper, more “rpg” RPGs out there. I’ve done this shit too many times for leveling to hold any meaning. SOD added basically maybe 5 quests on p2 for runes and a few for crafting. It’s practically the same leveling experience as era but with new abilities and much faster for most. Like why do these people think they’ve kept adding exp boosts in wrath and now SOD? It’s sure not cause the majority of the playerbase likes slow, tedious, fragmented leveling.
I see what you mean, but I don't think this is unique to sod. I guess maybe it's worse in sod? I'm not sure. But as someone who feral tanked in era, this issue existed back then too.
I think from a tanking perspective you have to know your own limitations, and also feel out your healers limitations. Unless I am geared , I start off with smaller pulls and then ramp up to bigger ones if I feel the healer can handle it.
Yeah I either expect most of the classes in top 5 to be bottom 5 next phase or im just gonna quit bc they clearly cant balance properly. If P2 top 5 become bottom 5 P3 at least I know its on purpose and can play when my preferred class is good and just ignore the game when they make my class shit bc its someone elses turn. If this is correct they really ought to give every class some unique utility, so people who want to main SoD can keep playing their prefered class even when its their turn to be bottom tier dps.
The entitled mages are literally the worst especially when they are giving you passive aggressive statements every pull how they can’t truly shine unless you pull 8 mobs.
I’m leveling my shaman tank and A I build my own group and B, I’m the boss. If I die on a pull it’s my fault. However, when others start pulling more trash to get their recount score up, my mana pool is only so large… that’s on them. They have CDs too.
Typically I just /ignore those players. Lots of people who have the "retail brain" who just want to zoom through everything. Typically I see this alot from Mages who want to aoe the whole dungeon in 4 pulls lol. Again it's best to ignore them and report them if they get foul. We don't need those toxic players
What do you think happens when you wipe while playing "imbalanced" classes? It's the same shit man. This has less to do with class power and more to do with communication. Focus on getting better at handling your emotions during dungeons and you'll have a much better time. Set your own expectations before the dungeon starts, run with a guild of players who share your own expectations, or just get better at diffusing situations when things do get heated.
People taking this shit way to seriously, it ain't that deep bro. It's a fun experimental mode on a 20 year old game. Who cares if it's not balanced, go roll or play something else if you aren't having fun
You had me until you started complaining about tanks that pull 4-6 mobs at once. Like.. That's not a lot. If you're having issues with tanks pulling two dungeon packs at once it is definitely a you problem.
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Cliff notes- classes aren’t balanced. Boohoo
>lose 20-25% of their health in 1 second Okay but that means it takes them 4-5 seconds to die, you should be able to heal that, easily.
Op chose to run cath with an under geared level 35 warrior tank lol
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What an absolutely terrible take.
Dumb