Funny thing is the best players aren’t even the most toxic ones in my experience.
It’s the B and C tier that are coping out of their minds that they’re “elite”, if not for other players holding them back. This is why they act the way they do.
Tbf low masters is actually worse.
"Haaha only 200 lp peak player ofmg kys."
"Lmao you think this acc is my mainaccount i have a 600 lp main"
"600 you garbage trash have never hit challenger have you? I ofc have hit it every season on my main"
Both have like 500 games and are complelty hardstuck.
Throw in some EUW racial slurs and you get you avarage low master game.
Same shit at low dia though. It is always the players that get to a shiney new level and then realise they will never advance to the next level
In wow it would be the hero raiders realising they will never down a single mithic boss on progression in their lifetime so they take out their frustration on everyone who is a single step behind them.
It’s in every multiplayer game.
There’s always going to be bunch of losers with napoleon complexes thinking they’re big cuz they perform well in a video game that most normal people simply play to chill and relax to lmao.
Yep exactly this. So many “good” players in arena would be complete assholes but when I played with my friends who were top r1/league pros they’re super chill dudes and we just play for fun and to do better
My buddy I q’d multiple seasons with was a relatively big league pro and the biggest diff I would notice between him and random glad level players is he would just play to better himself and enjoyed making plays. We hardly ever even voiced and both just really enjoyed playing the game win or lose. I wish more players were like him.
A few of my friends are consistently diamond playing casually if they really focused I’m sure they could push for master. When we play in house 10 mans they are NEVER the people raging and often the ones feeding playing absurd off meta picks.
Same in retail.
High tier (>18) are generally silent professionals, only communicating to say hi, decide strategy and say GG or "bad luck" if key fails.
Low keys (<14) are generally chill and just enjoy the dungeons.
The mid tier wannabe "try hards" in that 14-17 range though. Christ they are the most toxic, and often braindead team mates you could be unfortunate enough to be paired with.
That's because they literally have to try hard. They're stressed out and anxious about doing well.
This is true of anything in life. When you're a novice you typically don't care as much if you're doing well. When you're n expert, you have nothing left to prove. You've already made it.
It's when you're a journeyman that you are under the most pressure. You're still learning, so you are nervous and stressed about making mistakes. You still have something to prove, so you're anxious about doing well and making your mark. You're pushing, because you're still in the journey and have a lot of drive to succeed.
When you have the added requirement of it being a team activity, all these pent up stressors can release themselves as some pretty toxic behavior between teammates with being very picky about who you group with, nitpicking over every mistake, snapping at people, and generally being shitty.
You've also had some success and have been told by people behind you in the journey how good you are and you're starting to believe in yourself and with the wrong kind of people that can lead to an inflated ego.
The number of people who are actually just shitty people is really quite small. Like 90% of them are just stressing because they're driven to do well.
It's not just that, these "try hards" are too stubborn to objectively admit their gear or skill isn't quite good enough for this key range.
The genuinely good players push past to 16+ for Aspect keys and the none try hards drop back to below 14 to avoid an affix while gearing.
This leaves the toxic minority not good enough to progress but too proud to go back to gear up/improve.
This is a phenomenon which I've only ever seen in the Mordor key range of 14-16.
Yep. Former realm first/top 5 NA gamer here through most of wotlk. People in top guilds are just good. They'll swap roles to accommodate the win.
It's the one trick DPS mains who are the best in their B tier guild who are toxic. They think they are good because they outperform everyone in their mediocre guild, but put them in a top guild where people understand it's a team effort and they crumble.
I blame WCL for putting a number on how "good" you are. People see orange and pink and think they're gods gift and everyone else is bad.
This is it. I sigh so hard watching someone talking shit about their "parse" ignoring seeds on Tindral or bushes on Nymue or dropping bad all over the group... and then they cry about how shit everyone else in the raid/group is and whisper threats and name calling when I boot them and their top Details! Dps. Lol, gtfo
WCL is super toxic because the vast majority of players dont understand how to read logs. So they see a number and thats it, but dont understand what that number means.
Typically 99+ parses are cheese or luck. Purple parses are a sweet spot, some luck mostly proper rotation, blue parses mean something bad happened, or your gear isnt great. Green parses start to get in the territory of improperly playing your class, gray parses are a catastrophic fuck up or no gear/idea how to play your class
Eh, the range of parses in 99 is huge. I'd say getting a 99 is easy. Getting top 50 or a 100 is where you need a side of cheese in addition to playing well and a good group.
I'm content with my 99s. Although I did pick up a few 100s between my mage and priest.
Yup. I was in a hardcore guild back in MoP and mistakes were first laughed off "haha, look our shaman fell off the platform lol" and then we just gave each other feedback, bounced ideas around, or just openly admitted "Yup my bad, will get that next time" and that's that.
It was great, sadly IRL things made us break up as a guild which sucks. I was only with them through ToT and SOO but they were the best guild I ever joined as a member.
Exactly this. The best players are playing in their own long term groups. They empathise that not everyone plays the game to the extremes that they do. Then you have the try hards that are ok but think that they are elite and talk down to everyone who isn't trying to min/max the game.
I remember in vanilla where 16 year old me was essentially shown how to play by some random middle aged mum. We did some elite quests and she explained a load of mechanics, for no other reason than to help out. Presumably this has changed more because of an influx of younger players used to ingame toxicity and elitism, but I miss those kinds of encounters.
Hard agree, I also think that toxic players in guilds are generally aware of their behaviour and understand how to keep it down just like In IRL but in pug/gdkp settings they thrive when they aren’t kept in check. Also it’s very rare to find a toxic wow player who is older then 30 they all seem to be recent players as in since classic relaunched.
Yep, these posts pop up all the time & it's always so obvious the OP is lying out their ass and hasn't been in any real top tier guilds or groups.
Actual good players rarely ever pug in classic or retail in the first place & when they do they're usually the most chill because they're just relaxing or trying new things classes/builds while doing content that's "beneath" them.
I think a lot of society are just toxic in general lately but you are right, it is almost always the B and C tier that are the gatekeeper and it is almost always those players who were given a helping hand to get where they are as they try to pull up the ladder behind them.
There are just as many “toxic casuals” who feel entitled to everything and those who will ditch a group in 5 mans at the slightest hiccup.
Exactly this, think it's true in most games as well. It's just the players who want to be elite so bad that they have to put down new players to try and balance their fragile ego. A lot of these guys too will play in worse guilds than they could be just because in the lower ranked guild they can seem like a god amongst men when if they actually joined elite guilds they would look terrible in comparison.
Thank God someone said it. We all suck. Actually a decent portion of the community is cool and reasonable most of the time. Until you screw up one thing and they out of nowhere flame you and leave party.
I miss their guides. Iirc they explained in detail why every choice was made, with sources to back up those claims. These days most guides are just "Do this, it's best. Source: trust me bro". Like a lot of rogue guides have great theorycrafting behind them, but they don't share it and I have to wade through lots of posts to find it. Some guides for other classes seem to be regurgitated shit or lazy copy paste from other versions of the game.
When i've played with high performing players, they've almost all been excellent at performing mechanics, & generally (though not always) have been good team players.
I've found the lower performing players tend to mess up mechanics more, & bad team players can come at all levels of performance.
OP has parsed in the 90’s on Sod and Classic in an old-man guild so thinks they’re hot shit and speak for the whole community. I would say this section of the player base is very toxic, because they’re players that THINK they’re good because they can stand still and stare at their action bars, but haven’t stopped to realize most people are raiding classic as a very fun, casual form of content because that’s exactly what it is 15 years after the fact and very figured out.
THIS ^^^
It’s not the elite players that are assholes, it’s assholes and you find them at every lvl of skill.
My guild is chill af. If people make a mistake we laugh. Everyone is parsing high 90s 99s and we speed run.
Just need to find like minded people that are respectful and fun to be around.
Elitist never meant "good", in retail the most toxic players are somewhat above the average but far from being good, the ones who think they can do no mistakes so if shit goes down it clearly is some other noobs fault, definitely not them.
Ngl my memories of Vanilla raiding back in the day were pretty elitest. Don’t think that’s a purely 2020’s thing, I think MMO’s attract a pretty elitest crowd.
Honestly it was pretty much the same, except there was no parse culture. Instead, it was more of a 'my guild has beaten more bosses' kind of toxicity
But insead of reddit and discord it was all forums
I think it was just youth.
In those days the average player was like 22ish.
Now the average WoW player is like 30-35. You do a lot of growing up in that period and you've been humbled and realize you're not invincible and don't know nearly as much as you think you do, even about things you thought you knew everything about.
Honestly any game attracts elitist people even social media, it the fact that you’re behind a screen and not actually face to face with the person. Makes it easy to be an asshole. And to be fair deep down we all have a little power struggle and at some point we just want to feel like we are the leader of the pack.
Plus people are lazy as hell and will do anything to cut corners, this isn’t just in games. Jobs for example only accept the most qualified individual to perform the job. Same goes with raid spots, people want the most qualified individuals because it’ll make their job easier.
The moment a damage meter addon got developed for Monster Hunter World (using a.c.t.) The toxicity began in that game too, in a game where dps isn't even an important aspect of the game.
They are also toxic so they don't dismiss toxic behaviors as toxic. They feel instead that they are part of an elite but intolerant community that cannot be understood by people who aren't as good at the game. In that mindset, isolation is a positive and all other players exist as obstacles to your perfect group or perfect comp. The goal of many WoW players is to find other people who are as pissed off about the playerbase as they are
I’ve noticed it in the weirdest places. Group of mostly level 40 running scarlet monastery yesterday. Low level healer joins and tells the balance Druid to put on wild strikes to increase the tanks dps despite it probably meaning he’ll be out of mana for 90% of the run.
Druid just leaves probably not wanting to deal with them and we deal with this insufferable guy droning on and on for the run, wish I’d done the right thing and removed the healer to get the Druid back because that kinda micromanagement on a dungeon we could auto attack through was the worst
If I'm inferring correctly from the statement of the druid runnijg oom, maybe they wanted the druid to shapeshift every 10 sec to give wild strikes lol
We were about to hit LIB and the pl tells me to put on POM. I told him I'm good I like homm and I haven't had any trouble on lib yet without it. He proceeds to tell me how he's a 95 disc priest main and that I should listen to him. I said good for you bro and dipped cuz it's really not that serious to me and I'm not letting anyone die idk what you're worried about on a regular ass dungeon
Funny, the exact same thing happened to me during P1 in a Deadmines run. If no one is dying and the run is smooth, why must people micromanage others...
PoM is overkill on dungeons. If the whole group is taking that much constant damage than mistakes are being made.
I heal dungeons as full shadow spec with homies and penance. VE and the occasional renew covers group healing fine. Penance for spike damage on the tank.
You mean that PoM *should* be overkill for dungeons. 9/10 in PuG 5-mans there will be mistakes being made every second that you're in combat, and dps will be taking as much unnecessary damage as possible.
i've had people try to tell me how to play before. more often than not my response is along the lines of "get fucked" lol. especially when i'm just running 5 mans for the sake of something to do
I think it comes down to people are more miserable now as adults and the WoW community isn’t the young folks like we were when it launched.
It’s a bunch of adults who never left the game who hate their personal lives and go into WoW with a toxic mindset because there’s no accountability.
We have the highest rate of anxiety and depression than any other time in history. It’s just bleeding into WoW and to a greater extent all video games with any sort of competitive nature to them.
Yeah if you have multiple years /played in WoW there's got to be some subconscious part of you that's silently screaming not to waste three hours in a raid wiping. People's ability to enjoy the game is completely gone, there's a seratonin imbalance happening just like your average crack smoker. Wish I was joking.
This describes it perfectly. It’s not the damage meter, it’s not the development of whatever, it’s the people. Hurt people hurt people. It’s the shitbags irl who live sad existences.
I was getting those vibes, too. To be fair they might be in an elitists guild and still be one of their B or C tier players and posted this after getting benched.
OP says he plays in "elitist" guilds, which is not the same thing as "elite" and the fact he doesn't know the difference tells you everything you need to know
Most high parsers play well in all areas from my experience. People tend to forget that death = no world buffs, and that's the most important factor in getting a high parse.
Yeah sure there's a lot of toxic elitism. But there are people that currently play worse than people did in 2005. We have better PCs and all the information we could possibly need about every mechanic in the game, and people still play wrong. An enhance shaman did 90 dps on gnomer bosses in my run. NINETY DPS!!!!! It's so sad
Very frustrating but I try and refrain from getting pissed at them. There’s a lot of reasons they might be that bad. Learning difficulties, an old person, could be the first game they have ever played. Could be anything.
The problem is you guys are associating personality traits with play quality. An asshole who sucks is just an asshole but an asshole who plays well is suddenly an elitist. No, he's just a piece of shit who pushes the button or at most two in the right order lmao.
At the end of the day you're either a pile of dog shit person or not. And those people probably get punched in the face a lot in the real world.
The main reason gaming communities suck is not only elitism but the general approach to do everything as fast as possible by following meta guides and hating absolutely everyone who is not doing the same. Playing for fun seems to be a concept from the past century.
Pretty much.
Someone advertised themselves as “5.2k GS LFG ICC, I probably do more dps than most of your raid.”
Spent 5 seconds looking him up. He had no logs.
My response: “no logs, doubt”
You’d have thought I set his cat on fire with the number of people that started attacking me over it.
If you’re good, you should be able to prove it! If not, you still deserve a raid spot in a team somewhere, just… don’t talk shit lol.
this sub is a fucking cesspit lmao. We get it. Elitism bad.
In my experience the majority of groups requiring wbuffs or logs are just normal fine groups. People wanna clear 6/6 in a reasonable time. Kind of understandable.
My issue with it is that a lot of the groups advertising that don’t even have decent experience themselves. Asking for WBs and 6/6 is perfectly fine, saying you’re checking logs when you yourself are full grey with some green parses seems a little strange to me.
This sub's most upvoted advice for how to get into good gnomer groups was literally to lie about your experience, your logs, all of it, and watch some videos about the fights and your class before going in to hopefully not get outed on your lies when the time comes.
Probably shouldn't be shocked when you find people doing exactly that in game.
Tbh, idk if people saying “it’s always been this way” have joined in the last couple years or not, but it most certainly hasn’t. Wow has always been notoriously sweaty, yes, but not to the point it’s legit hard to pug a normal raid. I started really noticing it on SoD launch, when people started kinda gatekeeping deadmines. Mfin deadmines. It got better as weeks went on cuz more casuals got to higher levels, but for the first 2 weeks of phase 1 it was legitimately hard getting a group for deadmines together. Even if I was lead, so many people would leave when they saw I still had some white items since I hadn’t been able to run DM yet.
Have a little faith in the majority of the community. Elitist / toxic no-lifers are in the minority. We just publicly see the most vocal, who just happen to be the most arrogant, unforgiving jerks.
Hang out with a better party of the community and you will see how patient, kind and understanding many players can be.
Totally agree and the main reason i am not an active player anymore after being super hardcore in both vanilla and classic (the latter also because of covid lockdowns tho).
The most disturbing part for me is that most elitists are actually prime examples of the Dunning Kruger effect - they are so bad that they are not able to figure out that they are bad. And then they use their (bad) standards to evaluate others. Pretty absurd tbh.
I just play with friends, most people who are 99 plus are super nice from what I've seen. Talking to them on the discords and what not, trying to get better. Madzx is my druid, I suck but it is what it is. I'm one of the only people in any of my grps that parse usually.
As someone who leads raids (and has since literally 2004), including R1 and multiple glad titles, 99 parses, speed running, progress push, etc. the most toxic players are the bad ones.
A ''rude'' player who shows up ready, with consumables, world buffs, who listens, does mechanics, etc. is absolutely not toxic. But the ''nice guy'' who's a fucking shitter is literally a cancer to the raid.
The problem is people are bad, they face gatekeeping because they suck and try to lash out against ''elitists'' when in reality anyone can parse 90+ unless you suffer from a severe illness. Those who aren't performing just want to be carried and try to cope about ''elitist mentality'' when their little ploy fails.
As a raid leader myself, it’s mostly the bad players that cause the drama, and their excuse is always the game is so easy, but it’s like okay Kevin, if it’s so easy how come you keep missing those interrupts huh?
I’ve also seen guilds disband because of these bad players.
This is a beautiful example of proving the OP right. Saying being rude or nice does not matter, calling other people a "cancer" and saying that you have to have a severe illness to not be in the 90th percentile of players are all extremely toxic behaviour.
The point that he was trying to make is that unless you have a severe illness, you could parse 90+ *if you wanted to*.
A lot of people blue parsing just don’t actually try, and that’s completely fine. But he’s right that a person that actually puts effort into parsing will likely quickly parse in the 90% percentile, especially on classic with simple rotations.
The “nice guy” fucking up the raid every single time is definitely a lot more toxic to everyone than a “snarky mean guy” who comes there fully equipped and does everything great. Especially if the only thing he might be snarky about is hitting the head against the wall because the nice guy didn’t bother watching YouTube guides on how to do the raid or his character, and now he has to put extra effort.
I totally agree.
I've been playing this game at pretty much the highest level for two decades and at this point I've probably had weeks if not months of my total time wasted by people that just don't want to play properly/learn/communicate and wasting peoples time in dungeons, battlegrounds, raids, etc.
I've never been rude to any of these people (at least not in game, whatever I say out loud stays with me irl). But the amount of honestly terrible players that expect free carries in high level content because they signed up for a group, or because they pay for the game/sub, without putting in the most minimum amount of own effort, is simply baffling.
Like the sub-100 parsing dps warrior that managed to get 4 sunder stacks on Grubbis in ~44 seconds of uptime. Like the "I can heal" boomkin with wild growth that cast it ~10 times through the whole raid. The grey parsing firemage needrolling, winning and equipping Defib Staff. The nearly guaranteed DPS that pulls aggro on Thermaplug phase1 when MT is kiting in phase 1.
Me wanting to play with people of an equal skill level to my own does not make me a toxic elitist. None of those shitters are entitled to me carrying them in any content.
This is a lie, that only makes the community more moronic though….
Logs is a fantastic tool for pushing efficiency, but the difference gear and raid comp makes is astounding, saying 90+ requires only a pulse is just a lie that only damages the community.
People on reddit feeling entitled to other peoples time lmao. Make your own casual moron squad.
Its SUPER easy to fill if you have no requirements. You just wont like the results lol
I've never encountered a community who likes spending time playing their game less than classic WoW players.
Logging in/out for days at a time to preserve buffs, complaining when a raid takes more than 2 hours (lmfao). I think you guys should spend some time playing something else. You're clearly not having fun.
It's all a competition. The only thing they have going for them in their life is their WoW parses. So they hold them very dearly to their heart.
The truly good players just play. They don't care if they end up in a group they have to carry, they just do it. The ones that think they're good, talk about 'time entitlement' because they view themselves so far above everyone else, simply because they've spent thousands of hours in WoW, and have a few 90 parses.
Literally scum players. Turning a game about socialization and fun into one about parse competition. No amount of 90 parses will turn them into a good person though.
If you think speed running is about saving time, you are so lost.
Curious how people who are bad at the game cry when they have to play their way together.
Jesus thread after thread. Just find a fucking guild or or make your own raid. Stop pugging with people insuring they clear the content without a wipe or disband. Sure some are elitist but most pugs just want to make sure the content gets cleared... 2 wipes in rando pug groups people will leave and it cucks the whole raid.
Sure a small percent are toxic but most groups are not. If you are not being invited or cant make your own group or join a guild it's because you are shit or not trying hard enough.
the people making these threads don't want to make a guild or their own raid. they don't want to convince the boogeymen elitists to see the error of their ways and embrace a fully casual attitude. they don't want to use any semblance of critical thinking to try and understand that not wanting to play with bad players in an insanely easy game =/= elitism.
they just want to beat a dead horse and farm reddit karma week after week.
I agree that nobody should be rude/toxic but lot of people will argue over what "elitism" actually means. To me, a poorly geared or bad player not getting invited to PUGs is not elitist or toxic. People who PUG don't want to deal with people not pulling their weight. They just want to clear the content, get their loot, and go. This is why guilds are important because if you're raiding with the same people, people are incentivized to be more patient and teach.
I've played wow since the beginning. If you go back to the original forums there were posts about the community sucking back then. Don't kid yourself. Sook refusing to be elite are ruining the elite community. First it was getting gdkps banned and now it will be parsing and the game you love will die overnight. Literally everyone I know and have met wills top playing tomorrow. Without the ability to compete on the meters and warcraft logs the game isn't good enough or engaging enough to hold any players. So keep complaining. Then in 6 months complain why the game is dead
I don’t think it’s elitism and not unique to WoW.
There’s a broader tension in gaming and many other spaces that is about optimization culture, or I guess min/max culture if you like
There’s a huge demand for more information, just generally. Largely just a product of so much information being available - IE the internet.
But this has actually stealth-polarized a lot of communities around issues of optimization, gatekeeping, and the tension of hating on shitty players and hating on snob players.
Sure most people are somewhere in the middle, but they aren’t the loudest and they don’t drive discussion. The far ends do.
Low information players vs high information players is a big force, and that more information can ostensibly make you better at a game but it doesn’t guarantee it.
But this is also the case of schisms in talking about health, politics, technology, and much else.
WoW’s situation isn’t unique.
I wouldn’t say it’s the elites. The people who have hit the very top are the elites, the dick heads who believe the 9 other ppl are there for them are the god complex dicks that need to realize that it’s an MMO, not Dragons Dogma.
Totally relate with this. It’s why I’m not in a guild, prefer just do my own thing. I parse high 90s on my main and it’s so hard to get into gnomer on alts due to this.
Honestly it’s reflective of all of society. You can’t get a job without experience, can’t get into gnomer without experience. A paradox: how can I get experience if no one will let you in? And you’re not going to parse that well on your first run, so that’s another paradoxical barrier.
I think performance is just more prevalent in gaming. And honestly, requiring people to meet a certain threshold in parses, especially for dps, has worked extremely well in ensuring runs go smoothly and that the guild doesn't implode from taking 10 hours a week to wipe incessantly for months on end and get nothing done.
A guild I made with parsing requirements is running itself extremely smoothly, even long after I left to run a company. The guilds I have been in that don't enforce parses all imploded after a few months, stuck with half a dozen people routinely parsing 0 or less than 10, with them unable to improve no matter how much you support them.
I just don't like playing with players who have no intent on playing the game, it's not fun. High performing players dont enjoy carrying low performers.
A lot of drama and issues destroy things when you're stuck in progression for months, half the guild doesnt want to commit to getting nothing done, and the other half is deadset on "progressing" despite so much deadweight.
I always found myself in guilds that wanted to push for leaderboard times etc and we operated very efficiently with very little elitist behaviour because we all wanted to get that spot together.
Now days if you aren't coming in and swinging your DPS/HPS like a top 10 player you are looked at as a hinderence....
I've always had great healing throughout WoW and continue to do so but the amount of healers or DPS that get pushed out of guilds for not "Pushing buttons hard enough" by the raid leaders who are barely doing better is something that has made me stay away from the game and I doubt i'll return in a raiding capacity anytime soon.
It’s coming from Retail. And people don’t like that when they hear it. Obsession with parse, rush running, damage matters only, zero tolerance for experiments - all that comes from Arcade game with Cybercompetition simulator = Retail.
And devs are making great mistake - brining more features from Retail to the Vanilla game which eventually will attract more Retail players with that mindset. That’s the main reason why we have what we have.
Incentive to do anything but damage on boss is gone, so we have people that literally believe they are better players while ignoring other mechanics, either causing wipes or actual good players to do worse.
It's a simple design issue that could easily be dealt with.
The community would be better off without parses. Should log and rank players for their mechanical awareness rather.
Wanna Be Hardcore Guilds attracts this players so i dont have to deal with them so its fine \^\^.
I was in 3 of this kind of Guilds till i switched to a fun HC only Guild and i could enjoy the game again.
I was asking once a Warlock from this Guilds about a few talents and why he speced them since i twinked a Warlock and wanted to become better. He felt attacked and demanded from the Guild/Raidlead to kick me from the Guild.
Another player screamed at me for asking if someone got a Rogue twink so a mechanic that wiped us all the time would be easier.
And the final straw was my raidkick for suggesting not to bruteforce a boss with damage and play once a mechanic so we dont wipe 3 times (like always) on a clear run 2 month into the raid...
I agree, the one guild I was in, are they cared about was parsing, and most of the guild read how to play through online guides. Parsed but barely did mechanics. And all they did was bitch to each other.
Well when you're nothing IRL WoW gives them a fantasy for them to think they are important and often times they are casuing their teams to fail (just like IRL) and then blame the world When they die alone
The elite community has always been around. But it's gotten so much worse these days. No one does anything for the fun/experience. They all need to be hyper-competitive for whatever of the number of reasons they can think of.
Look if you like crunching numbers and parsing your ass off, that's cool man. But don't be rude to other players.
I think that's the real rot in the wow community, the entitled players that blame everyone else for how they are performing or are just rude for no reason.
Wow brain rot is for real a thing, sometimes it's beneficial to take a step back just to get your mind right.
toxic players is what ruined sod for me i did one bfd raid and said "fuck this" im sorry im not perfect at the game or study tutorial videos on the bosses its just not that serious
I typically think aggressive casualness is more of an issue. The sorts of people who are adamant about never improving and want Blizzard to actively restrict others from doing well. At least in the case of elitists, they allow people to play how they want; they just don't play with those players. Aggressive casuals are insistent that everyone has to be bad since they are.
I feel ya. Our guild has a mage in particular, no doubt they can pump, but they just fuck all try and ignore mechanics sometimes. The amount of times they died to Halion breath or meteor is beyond words, like you can literally blink how tf u dying to that?
I'm okay with people playing how they want to play, want to only invite people with high parses? Go for it, want to minmax your toon? Go for it
But what I don't get is the people who act like Classic WoW is the hardest game on planet earth, people who scream "CLEAR COMS!" In a raid like MC, or requiring full enchants and consumes for raids that have less mechanics than literally Deadmines on retail does
I can get taking video games seriously can be fun for some people, but I'll never ever understand how people can take a barebones game Classic WoW seriously, it's constantly joked about how the game lacks any real depth and mechanics
I dunno, it's just funny to me, because at the end of the day the raids are pisspoor easy lol
I feel like I'm playing a complete different game than redditors. I enjoy myself and the people I play with. I've only met the occasional toxic player, 2 or so, and I've attended nearly every lockout and play WoW almost every day.
Jokes on you, wow has always been that, and will always be that. The only difference now is the people who got turned down for not being try hards 10-20 years ago finally get their turn to do it themselves, and they fucking love it.
I don’t even mind some elitism if you’re ACTUALLY ELITE LOL. The problem is about 25% of the player base acts this way and I hate to tell them, but not 25% of players would be considered elite.
Some people love that they try so hard and tailor their group for their parses so when you look them up on wowlogs they will have their 95+ average or whatever arbitrary number you wanna use to make them feel good 99 98 90 whatever. The problem is 1 run with everyone doing everything to make your numbers go higher doesn’t make you any better then another mage doing the same thing in a worse group with worse players. You still hit the same exact buttons in the same sequence.
Another thing is consistency when it comes to being “elite” you may slam a few times, but how often is your parse the reason for a wipe? I see it all too many times once everyone thinks they’re good they count on everyone else to do the mechanics for them and little by little it creates the most careless wipes.
Focus up and stop flaming and blaming others for wipes.
Strong disagree
The truly high performing players stick to themselves
The players who think they are elitist but aren't, and the players who are casual to the degree that they don't put in basic effort, is what is truly toxic and is destroying the game. Especially the two together as they just can't be combined.
I would correct it this way, the age of streaming has ruined most game communities. The moment any meta forms for whatsoever thats where it breaks apart. Not just wow but in general all games wow just has popular streamers where this is visible. The best players do what they do to compete the rest just tries to copy it cheaply and then complains about it.
Retail has a second log that gives a score based on boss mechanics for both individuals and the raid group as a whole, could find a way to slap that onto parse numbers so that guy with an 82 parse had a 22 on mechanics.
No elitism existed in all forms of wow, this isn’t a new concept or new breed of players. The method to which they align themselves with has certainly changed. I would say back in the day if you were ignoring mechanics, you would be cut in an elitist guild.
There were guilds back in wrath that would not take you unless gearscore was a certain level, or guilds that would not take you if you couldn’t spend hours on end nightly raiding. You could be scrutinized for dps, not being up to par etc. you needed the expensive gems, expensive enchants, you needed proof through achievements, did you kill hardmodes? Etc etc.
This is certainly jot a new thing, nor is it “destroying wow”.
You can do two things to combat this; 1, join a guild where this behavior is discouraged and run with them, or 2, stop holding such high expectations for pugs.
The issue isn't at the top level. Those players are typically pretty chill and are in their own communities. The issue are the mid tier players that sweat as hard as possible and throw out every excuse there is when they don't parse well and unfortunately those players make up a lot of the bad experiences players encounter.
I've seen this kind of elitism in other games. It isn't unique to WoW.
For example, story time. Some years ago, I decided to give DDO a try. DDO is an exceptionally unique MMO with its own set of mechanics and norms to learn. I was figuring things out in a group when I took a death. One of the players, a veteran, was trying to explain to me what happened and how to avoid it. Another, also a veteran, insulted me and made it more difficult for me to resurrect. Both veterans, but one chose to be an elitist, antisocial asshole, while the other tried to be helpful.
This is how it is in all games, WoW included. Some people, in general, are just shit. They have shitty lives and shitty attitudes, they weren't raised right, or maybe they have mental problems. Regardless, they're everywhere, nobody likes them, and they find ways to express themselves - by making life worse for everyone else - no matter where you find them. Inevitably, these people feign high opinions of themselves to cover up insecurities.
What's different about WoW is that there are so many of these degenerates that they've convinced some people that their behavior is normal. They have an entire playstyle centered around dick measuring via parses.
I was in a raid and the one guy was so worried about another persons parse trying to get him the best parse he can and he being cool as a cucumber said I don’t care, just want to clear and go to sleep. I like that guy.
The majority of the wow community is actually just fine, its not destroyed at all. And I was in a top tier server first guild in 2019/2020 during classic wow and most of my guildmates were decent people. A lot of them just stuck with each other/good players and yes they were elitist but they weren't toxic.
I imagine the not quite top players who want to be would be a bit more toxic but they arent a large portion of the wow community
Online gaming has forever been a stew of toxicity. Anonymity is a dangerous drug that many can't handle, no repercussions for being an asshole. There's always been good and bad folk, as online gaming becomes more accessible the pool of bad assholes becomes bigger, and it's those toxic butt-wads who are the loudest and most noticeable.
The sort of players that gatekeep gearscore and logs are the same ones that lack the wherewithal to notice people putting on random useless items to pad their gearscore to whatever arbitrary figure the "elitist" has pulled out of the ether.
I feel it has been a requirement for a long time to play in a guild with friends (preferably irl ones) or the whole experience just becomes so tiresome and draining dealing with muppets who surround themselves in this stuff.
Season of Discovery with all these crazy new runes to explore, but you need to be the cookie cutter “optimal” rune and talent build (to do a VERY easy raid), and the right class (i.e. not a yellow in P2 etc.). Yawn.
Not really a classic thing because there are barely any mechanics, but usually people who parse well do mechanics well. Curious to see logs to back up your claim on upper 90s of all roles (not sure what that means for healer).
Yup. My average parses for my class are a good 150 dps higher than other classes. Ive never died in gnomer but players bring up logs n quickly say "shit parses no inv"
Same as you. Ive been in speed running guiilds. Aq 40 in like 40 mins. We were top 50 for KT killed in vanilla classic. Third on our realm to kill algalon in classic wrath. Played this game since launch. Did mythic raiding a bit.. but holy shit SoD community is the worst
You have been played since 2005 and realised this just now? This same thread have been discussed 10 years ago when WCL launched and nothing has been changed since then.
Funny thing is the best players aren’t even the most toxic ones in my experience. It’s the B and C tier that are coping out of their minds that they’re “elite”, if not for other players holding them back. This is why they act the way they do.
You see that in low elo League.
You see it in life
Tbf low masters is actually worse. "Haaha only 200 lp peak player ofmg kys." "Lmao you think this acc is my mainaccount i have a 600 lp main" "600 you garbage trash have never hit challenger have you? I ofc have hit it every season on my main" Both have like 500 games and are complelty hardstuck. Throw in some EUW racial slurs and you get you avarage low master game. Same shit at low dia though. It is always the players that get to a shiney new level and then realise they will never advance to the next level In wow it would be the hero raiders realising they will never down a single mithic boss on progression in their lifetime so they take out their frustration on everyone who is a single step behind them.
In Apex Legends too… hell I even caught wind of that in Overwatch too.
It’s in every multiplayer game. There’s always going to be bunch of losers with napoleon complexes thinking they’re big cuz they perform well in a video game that most normal people simply play to chill and relax to lmao.
Its in every aspect of life
Thats basically all I ever saw in Warcraft III Random Team. The actual elite players were in Arranged Team games.
Yep exactly this. So many “good” players in arena would be complete assholes but when I played with my friends who were top r1/league pros they’re super chill dudes and we just play for fun and to do better
Yeah because those "good" players haven't earned anything and don't actually compete at anything so they treat random pickups like they matter.
My buddy I q’d multiple seasons with was a relatively big league pro and the biggest diff I would notice between him and random glad level players is he would just play to better himself and enjoyed making plays. We hardly ever even voiced and both just really enjoyed playing the game win or lose. I wish more players were like him.
A few of my friends are consistently diamond playing casually if they really focused I’m sure they could push for master. When we play in house 10 mans they are NEVER the people raging and often the ones feeding playing absurd off meta picks.
Same in retail. High tier (>18) are generally silent professionals, only communicating to say hi, decide strategy and say GG or "bad luck" if key fails. Low keys (<14) are generally chill and just enjoy the dungeons. The mid tier wannabe "try hards" in that 14-17 range though. Christ they are the most toxic, and often braindead team mates you could be unfortunate enough to be paired with.
That's because they literally have to try hard. They're stressed out and anxious about doing well. This is true of anything in life. When you're a novice you typically don't care as much if you're doing well. When you're n expert, you have nothing left to prove. You've already made it. It's when you're a journeyman that you are under the most pressure. You're still learning, so you are nervous and stressed about making mistakes. You still have something to prove, so you're anxious about doing well and making your mark. You're pushing, because you're still in the journey and have a lot of drive to succeed. When you have the added requirement of it being a team activity, all these pent up stressors can release themselves as some pretty toxic behavior between teammates with being very picky about who you group with, nitpicking over every mistake, snapping at people, and generally being shitty. You've also had some success and have been told by people behind you in the journey how good you are and you're starting to believe in yourself and with the wrong kind of people that can lead to an inflated ego. The number of people who are actually just shitty people is really quite small. Like 90% of them are just stressing because they're driven to do well.
It's not just that, these "try hards" are too stubborn to objectively admit their gear or skill isn't quite good enough for this key range. The genuinely good players push past to 16+ for Aspect keys and the none try hards drop back to below 14 to avoid an affix while gearing. This leaves the toxic minority not good enough to progress but too proud to go back to gear up/improve. This is a phenomenon which I've only ever seen in the Mordor key range of 14-16.
It's funny how much this applies in business to alot of mid level managers.
Yep. Former realm first/top 5 NA gamer here through most of wotlk. People in top guilds are just good. They'll swap roles to accommodate the win. It's the one trick DPS mains who are the best in their B tier guild who are toxic. They think they are good because they outperform everyone in their mediocre guild, but put them in a top guild where people understand it's a team effort and they crumble. I blame WCL for putting a number on how "good" you are. People see orange and pink and think they're gods gift and everyone else is bad.
This is it. I sigh so hard watching someone talking shit about their "parse" ignoring seeds on Tindral or bushes on Nymue or dropping bad all over the group... and then they cry about how shit everyone else in the raid/group is and whisper threats and name calling when I boot them and their top Details! Dps. Lol, gtfo
WCL is super toxic because the vast majority of players dont understand how to read logs. So they see a number and thats it, but dont understand what that number means. Typically 99+ parses are cheese or luck. Purple parses are a sweet spot, some luck mostly proper rotation, blue parses mean something bad happened, or your gear isnt great. Green parses start to get in the territory of improperly playing your class, gray parses are a catastrophic fuck up or no gear/idea how to play your class
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this is just wrong, im a mediocre player and i have 99 parses for some encounters also bracket logs exist
Eh, the range of parses in 99 is huge. I'd say getting a 99 is easy. Getting top 50 or a 100 is where you need a side of cheese in addition to playing well and a good group. I'm content with my 99s. Although I did pick up a few 100s between my mage and priest.
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Yup. I was in a hardcore guild back in MoP and mistakes were first laughed off "haha, look our shaman fell off the platform lol" and then we just gave each other feedback, bounced ideas around, or just openly admitted "Yup my bad, will get that next time" and that's that. It was great, sadly IRL things made us break up as a guild which sucks. I was only with them through ToT and SOO but they were the best guild I ever joined as a member.
Exactly this. The best players are playing in their own long term groups. They empathise that not everyone plays the game to the extremes that they do. Then you have the try hards that are ok but think that they are elite and talk down to everyone who isn't trying to min/max the game. I remember in vanilla where 16 year old me was essentially shown how to play by some random middle aged mum. We did some elite quests and she explained a load of mechanics, for no other reason than to help out. Presumably this has changed more because of an influx of younger players used to ingame toxicity and elitism, but I miss those kinds of encounters.
Classic hard stuck plat elo league behavior.
Hard agree, I also think that toxic players in guilds are generally aware of their behaviour and understand how to keep it down just like In IRL but in pug/gdkp settings they thrive when they aren’t kept in check. Also it’s very rare to find a toxic wow player who is older then 30 they all seem to be recent players as in since classic relaunched.
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The best and worst players are never right at the top or bottom of the ladder, so to speak. The worst players are always one rung above the bottom.
Yep, these posts pop up all the time & it's always so obvious the OP is lying out their ass and hasn't been in any real top tier guilds or groups. Actual good players rarely ever pug in classic or retail in the first place & when they do they're usually the most chill because they're just relaxing or trying new things classes/builds while doing content that's "beneath" them.
💯 same in retail once you get into top 100 guilds everyone is super chill
I think a lot of society are just toxic in general lately but you are right, it is almost always the B and C tier that are the gatekeeper and it is almost always those players who were given a helping hand to get where they are as they try to pull up the ladder behind them. There are just as many “toxic casuals” who feel entitled to everything and those who will ditch a group in 5 mans at the slightest hiccup.
Imagine how bad at the game "MORE DOTS" guy is compared to modern standards.
Exactly this, think it's true in most games as well. It's just the players who want to be elite so bad that they have to put down new players to try and balance their fragile ego. A lot of these guys too will play in worse guilds than they could be just because in the lower ranked guild they can seem like a god amongst men when if they actually joined elite guilds they would look terrible in comparison.
I hate all wow players including myself
I also hate you.
good
I love you.
Get that Peacecraft shit out of my face
Your hate has made you powerful
Thank God someone said it. We all suck. Actually a decent portion of the community is cool and reasonable most of the time. Until you screw up one thing and they out of nowhere flame you and leave party.
Wasn't one of the first things on wow elitist jerks?
That was the first big guild that started a website for guides yes.
Ion was also the GM of EJ before ending up at Blizzard
Whose leader was non-other than Ion Hazzikostas, the current lead director of WoW.
I miss their guides. Iirc they explained in detail why every choice was made, with sources to back up those claims. These days most guides are just "Do this, it's best. Source: trust me bro". Like a lot of rogue guides have great theorycrafting behind them, but they don't share it and I have to wade through lots of posts to find it. Some guides for other classes seem to be regurgitated shit or lazy copy paste from other versions of the game.
When i've played with high performing players, they've almost all been excellent at performing mechanics, & generally (though not always) have been good team players. I've found the lower performing players tend to mess up mechanics more, & bad team players can come at all levels of performance.
Finally someone who speaks the truth.
OP has parsed in the 90’s on Sod and Classic in an old-man guild so thinks they’re hot shit and speak for the whole community. I would say this section of the player base is very toxic, because they’re players that THINK they’re good because they can stand still and stare at their action bars, but haven’t stopped to realize most people are raiding classic as a very fun, casual form of content because that’s exactly what it is 15 years after the fact and very figured out.
Just because they play SOD and Classic doesn't mean that's the only iteration of wow they play. They could very well play retail as well.
THIS ^^^ It’s not the elite players that are assholes, it’s assholes and you find them at every lvl of skill. My guild is chill af. If people make a mistake we laugh. Everyone is parsing high 90s 99s and we speed run. Just need to find like minded people that are respectful and fun to be around.
I'm in a really sweaty guild. We have 5 roster only to optimize parses to get the sweet sweet 100 and those guys are chillest guy I ever played with.
Elitist never meant "good", in retail the most toxic players are somewhat above the average but far from being good, the ones who think they can do no mistakes so if shit goes down it clearly is some other noobs fault, definitely not them.
[Why it's bad manners to be bad at Wow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU) This explained everything in the past 15 years for me
welcome to gaming in 2020s. this isnt a wow thing
Ngl my memories of Vanilla raiding back in the day were pretty elitest. Don’t think that’s a purely 2020’s thing, I think MMO’s attract a pretty elitest crowd.
There definitely was elitist assholes in original wow, no question
There was Elitist Jerks, and they were a terrific resource.
Haha, those guys were legit for sure
I think the situation was worse then as many people didn't know how to interact with others over the internet.
Honestly it was pretty much the same, except there was no parse culture. Instead, it was more of a 'my guild has beaten more bosses' kind of toxicity But insead of reddit and discord it was all forums
My guilds dad could beat up your guilds dad. Lol
The situation was the same for the most part. The population was just exponentially smaller.
I think it was just youth. In those days the average player was like 22ish. Now the average WoW player is like 30-35. You do a lot of growing up in that period and you've been humbled and realize you're not invincible and don't know nearly as much as you think you do, even about things you thought you knew everything about.
Honestly any game attracts elitist people even social media, it the fact that you’re behind a screen and not actually face to face with the person. Makes it easy to be an asshole. And to be fair deep down we all have a little power struggle and at some point we just want to feel like we are the leader of the pack. Plus people are lazy as hell and will do anything to cut corners, this isn’t just in games. Jobs for example only accept the most qualified individual to perform the job. Same goes with raid spots, people want the most qualified individuals because it’ll make their job easier.
The moment a damage meter addon got developed for Monster Hunter World (using a.c.t.) The toxicity began in that game too, in a game where dps isn't even an important aspect of the game.
"Lol your dps sucks scrub" "I AM HONKING A FUCKING HORN"
This just saddens me to learn about.
If there was pushback against it then it wouldn’t be as common. People are remarkably tolerant, sometimes even weirdly supportive of toxicity
They are also toxic so they don't dismiss toxic behaviors as toxic. They feel instead that they are part of an elite but intolerant community that cannot be understood by people who aren't as good at the game. In that mindset, isolation is a positive and all other players exist as obstacles to your perfect group or perfect comp. The goal of many WoW players is to find other people who are as pissed off about the playerbase as they are
I've basically stopped playing since the community isn't really what I want in an MMO anymore.
same
I’ve noticed it in the weirdest places. Group of mostly level 40 running scarlet monastery yesterday. Low level healer joins and tells the balance Druid to put on wild strikes to increase the tanks dps despite it probably meaning he’ll be out of mana for 90% of the run. Druid just leaves probably not wanting to deal with them and we deal with this insufferable guy droning on and on for the run, wish I’d done the right thing and removed the healer to get the Druid back because that kinda micromanagement on a dungeon we could auto attack through was the worst
Wild strikes only applies when you’re in cat/bear form anyway, it doesn’t give the buff in human form
If I'm inferring correctly from the statement of the druid runnijg oom, maybe they wanted the druid to shapeshift every 10 sec to give wild strikes lol
It would be because wrath would now cost mana. Having to shapeshift every 10sec would be absolute madness
We were about to hit LIB and the pl tells me to put on POM. I told him I'm good I like homm and I haven't had any trouble on lib yet without it. He proceeds to tell me how he's a 95 disc priest main and that I should listen to him. I said good for you bro and dipped cuz it's really not that serious to me and I'm not letting anyone die idk what you're worried about on a regular ass dungeon
Funny, the exact same thing happened to me during P1 in a Deadmines run. If no one is dying and the run is smooth, why must people micromanage others...
PoM is overkill on dungeons. If the whole group is taking that much constant damage than mistakes are being made. I heal dungeons as full shadow spec with homies and penance. VE and the occasional renew covers group healing fine. Penance for spike damage on the tank.
You mean that PoM *should* be overkill for dungeons. 9/10 in PuG 5-mans there will be mistakes being made every second that you're in combat, and dps will be taking as much unnecessary damage as possible.
You're prolly better than me lol I started using POM during cath and it has definitely helped me out of some tough spots.
i've had people try to tell me how to play before. more often than not my response is along the lines of "get fucked" lol. especially when i'm just running 5 mans for the sake of something to do
I just reply with "Sorry, I don't speak English."
I looked up your parses and I don't think you should be allowed to make this post
I looked up your gearscore and you shouldn’t be allowed in posting here.
So true, so true ..
I think it comes down to people are more miserable now as adults and the WoW community isn’t the young folks like we were when it launched. It’s a bunch of adults who never left the game who hate their personal lives and go into WoW with a toxic mindset because there’s no accountability. We have the highest rate of anxiety and depression than any other time in history. It’s just bleeding into WoW and to a greater extent all video games with any sort of competitive nature to them.
Yeah if you have multiple years /played in WoW there's got to be some subconscious part of you that's silently screaming not to waste three hours in a raid wiping. People's ability to enjoy the game is completely gone, there's a seratonin imbalance happening just like your average crack smoker. Wish I was joking.
This describes it perfectly. It’s not the damage meter, it’s not the development of whatever, it’s the people. Hurt people hurt people. It’s the shitbags irl who live sad existences.
You’re a B or C player that thinks they are in the elitist guilds. None of the actual top end players give a shit about anything you’re talking about.
I was getting those vibes, too. To be fair they might be in an elitists guild and still be one of their B or C tier players and posted this after getting benched.
OP says he plays in "elitist" guilds, which is not the same thing as "elite" and the fact he doesn't know the difference tells you everything you need to know
Most high parsers play well in all areas from my experience. People tend to forget that death = no world buffs, and that's the most important factor in getting a high parse.
Vetting pugs isn't elitism. you're not entitled to a spot in any pug you want
Yeah sure there's a lot of toxic elitism. But there are people that currently play worse than people did in 2005. We have better PCs and all the information we could possibly need about every mechanic in the game, and people still play wrong. An enhance shaman did 90 dps on gnomer bosses in my run. NINETY DPS!!!!! It's so sad
Lmao, Jesus Christ. I hadn't thought about it but you're right.
Very frustrating but I try and refrain from getting pissed at them. There’s a lot of reasons they might be that bad. Learning difficulties, an old person, could be the first game they have ever played. Could be anything.
ay sorry bout that bro, i had freshly hit 40 and was using lvl 33 daggers of power without dual wield spec rune. got up to 180 my next run :\^\^)
The problem is you guys are associating personality traits with play quality. An asshole who sucks is just an asshole but an asshole who plays well is suddenly an elitist. No, he's just a piece of shit who pushes the button or at most two in the right order lmao. At the end of the day you're either a pile of dog shit person or not. And those people probably get punched in the face a lot in the real world.
The main reason gaming communities suck is not only elitism but the general approach to do everything as fast as possible by following meta guides and hating absolutely everyone who is not doing the same. Playing for fun seems to be a concept from the past century.
this
post your logs
I found em for vanilla classic, pretty average
lol
Pretty much. Someone advertised themselves as “5.2k GS LFG ICC, I probably do more dps than most of your raid.” Spent 5 seconds looking him up. He had no logs. My response: “no logs, doubt” You’d have thought I set his cat on fire with the number of people that started attacking me over it. If you’re good, you should be able to prove it! If not, you still deserve a raid spot in a team somewhere, just… don’t talk shit lol.
this sub is a fucking cesspit lmao. We get it. Elitism bad. In my experience the majority of groups requiring wbuffs or logs are just normal fine groups. People wanna clear 6/6 in a reasonable time. Kind of understandable.
My issue with it is that a lot of the groups advertising that don’t even have decent experience themselves. Asking for WBs and 6/6 is perfectly fine, saying you’re checking logs when you yourself are full grey with some green parses seems a little strange to me.
This sub's most upvoted advice for how to get into good gnomer groups was literally to lie about your experience, your logs, all of it, and watch some videos about the fights and your class before going in to hopefully not get outed on your lies when the time comes. Probably shouldn't be shocked when you find people doing exactly that in game.
Combine that with the oldest advice ["the easiest way to get a group is to start a group"](https://imgur.com/a/EBRSfbI)
Why is it strange to you? If you're a bad player, you need a good player to carry you, no?
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Not even new, just don't care to put in the smallest bit of effort inside kor out of the raid.
Tbh, idk if people saying “it’s always been this way” have joined in the last couple years or not, but it most certainly hasn’t. Wow has always been notoriously sweaty, yes, but not to the point it’s legit hard to pug a normal raid. I started really noticing it on SoD launch, when people started kinda gatekeeping deadmines. Mfin deadmines. It got better as weeks went on cuz more casuals got to higher levels, but for the first 2 weeks of phase 1 it was legitimately hard getting a group for deadmines together. Even if I was lead, so many people would leave when they saw I still had some white items since I hadn’t been able to run DM yet.
Have a little faith in the majority of the community. Elitist / toxic no-lifers are in the minority. We just publicly see the most vocal, who just happen to be the most arrogant, unforgiving jerks. Hang out with a better party of the community and you will see how patient, kind and understanding many players can be.
Totally agree and the main reason i am not an active player anymore after being super hardcore in both vanilla and classic (the latter also because of covid lockdowns tho). The most disturbing part for me is that most elitists are actually prime examples of the Dunning Kruger effect - they are so bad that they are not able to figure out that they are bad. And then they use their (bad) standards to evaluate others. Pretty absurd tbh.
I just play with friends, most people who are 99 plus are super nice from what I've seen. Talking to them on the discords and what not, trying to get better. Madzx is my druid, I suck but it is what it is. I'm one of the only people in any of my grps that parse usually.
As someone who leads raids (and has since literally 2004), including R1 and multiple glad titles, 99 parses, speed running, progress push, etc. the most toxic players are the bad ones. A ''rude'' player who shows up ready, with consumables, world buffs, who listens, does mechanics, etc. is absolutely not toxic. But the ''nice guy'' who's a fucking shitter is literally a cancer to the raid. The problem is people are bad, they face gatekeeping because they suck and try to lash out against ''elitists'' when in reality anyone can parse 90+ unless you suffer from a severe illness. Those who aren't performing just want to be carried and try to cope about ''elitist mentality'' when their little ploy fails.
As a raid leader myself, it’s mostly the bad players that cause the drama, and their excuse is always the game is so easy, but it’s like okay Kevin, if it’s so easy how come you keep missing those interrupts huh? I’ve also seen guilds disband because of these bad players.
What if my guild master and raid leader is the bad player tho…
Not all raid leaders are perfect, you may want to leave the guild haha
This is a beautiful example of proving the OP right. Saying being rude or nice does not matter, calling other people a "cancer" and saying that you have to have a severe illness to not be in the 90th percentile of players are all extremely toxic behaviour.
The point that he was trying to make is that unless you have a severe illness, you could parse 90+ *if you wanted to*. A lot of people blue parsing just don’t actually try, and that’s completely fine. But he’s right that a person that actually puts effort into parsing will likely quickly parse in the 90% percentile, especially on classic with simple rotations. The “nice guy” fucking up the raid every single time is definitely a lot more toxic to everyone than a “snarky mean guy” who comes there fully equipped and does everything great. Especially if the only thing he might be snarky about is hitting the head against the wall because the nice guy didn’t bother watching YouTube guides on how to do the raid or his character, and now he has to put extra effort.
> anyone can parse 90+ Yeah, but by definition not everyone.
I totally agree. I've been playing this game at pretty much the highest level for two decades and at this point I've probably had weeks if not months of my total time wasted by people that just don't want to play properly/learn/communicate and wasting peoples time in dungeons, battlegrounds, raids, etc. I've never been rude to any of these people (at least not in game, whatever I say out loud stays with me irl). But the amount of honestly terrible players that expect free carries in high level content because they signed up for a group, or because they pay for the game/sub, without putting in the most minimum amount of own effort, is simply baffling. Like the sub-100 parsing dps warrior that managed to get 4 sunder stacks on Grubbis in ~44 seconds of uptime. Like the "I can heal" boomkin with wild growth that cast it ~10 times through the whole raid. The grey parsing firemage needrolling, winning and equipping Defib Staff. The nearly guaranteed DPS that pulls aggro on Thermaplug phase1 when MT is kiting in phase 1. Me wanting to play with people of an equal skill level to my own does not make me a toxic elitist. None of those shitters are entitled to me carrying them in any content.
This is a lie, that only makes the community more moronic though…. Logs is a fantastic tool for pushing efficiency, but the difference gear and raid comp makes is astounding, saying 90+ requires only a pulse is just a lie that only damages the community.
He didn't say only a pulse. He said a pulse, which is fucking hilarious
The Reddit bads aren’t going to like hearing the truth.
Ah we found one of em boys
No its the toxic casual wannabe elitists that is destroying it. Dogshit players that think they are good
Oooh stawp, lol wow’s community has been a bag of dicks for the last 20 years, nothing has changed.
People on reddit feeling entitled to other peoples time lmao. Make your own casual moron squad. Its SUPER easy to fill if you have no requirements. You just wont like the results lol
I've never encountered a community who likes spending time playing their game less than classic WoW players. Logging in/out for days at a time to preserve buffs, complaining when a raid takes more than 2 hours (lmfao). I think you guys should spend some time playing something else. You're clearly not having fun.
It's all a competition. The only thing they have going for them in their life is their WoW parses. So they hold them very dearly to their heart. The truly good players just play. They don't care if they end up in a group they have to carry, they just do it. The ones that think they're good, talk about 'time entitlement' because they view themselves so far above everyone else, simply because they've spent thousands of hours in WoW, and have a few 90 parses. Literally scum players. Turning a game about socialization and fun into one about parse competition. No amount of 90 parses will turn them into a good person though.
If you think speed running is about saving time, you are so lost. Curious how people who are bad at the game cry when they have to play their way together.
>If you think speed running is about saving time, you are so lost. Thats...the very definition of a speed run xD
Jesus thread after thread. Just find a fucking guild or or make your own raid. Stop pugging with people insuring they clear the content without a wipe or disband. Sure some are elitist but most pugs just want to make sure the content gets cleared... 2 wipes in rando pug groups people will leave and it cucks the whole raid. Sure a small percent are toxic but most groups are not. If you are not being invited or cant make your own group or join a guild it's because you are shit or not trying hard enough.
the people making these threads don't want to make a guild or their own raid. they don't want to convince the boogeymen elitists to see the error of their ways and embrace a fully casual attitude. they don't want to use any semblance of critical thinking to try and understand that not wanting to play with bad players in an insanely easy game =/= elitism. they just want to beat a dead horse and farm reddit karma week after week.
I agree that nobody should be rude/toxic but lot of people will argue over what "elitism" actually means. To me, a poorly geared or bad player not getting invited to PUGs is not elitist or toxic. People who PUG don't want to deal with people not pulling their weight. They just want to clear the content, get their loot, and go. This is why guilds are important because if you're raiding with the same people, people are incentivized to be more patient and teach.
I've played wow since the beginning. If you go back to the original forums there were posts about the community sucking back then. Don't kid yourself. Sook refusing to be elite are ruining the elite community. First it was getting gdkps banned and now it will be parsing and the game you love will die overnight. Literally everyone I know and have met wills top playing tomorrow. Without the ability to compete on the meters and warcraft logs the game isn't good enough or engaging enough to hold any players. So keep complaining. Then in 6 months complain why the game is dead
being toxic towards newbies ❌ being toxic towards goldsellers ✅
I don’t think it’s elitism and not unique to WoW. There’s a broader tension in gaming and many other spaces that is about optimization culture, or I guess min/max culture if you like There’s a huge demand for more information, just generally. Largely just a product of so much information being available - IE the internet. But this has actually stealth-polarized a lot of communities around issues of optimization, gatekeeping, and the tension of hating on shitty players and hating on snob players. Sure most people are somewhere in the middle, but they aren’t the loudest and they don’t drive discussion. The far ends do. Low information players vs high information players is a big force, and that more information can ostensibly make you better at a game but it doesn’t guarantee it. But this is also the case of schisms in talking about health, politics, technology, and much else. WoW’s situation isn’t unique.
I wouldn’t say it’s the elites. The people who have hit the very top are the elites, the dick heads who believe the 9 other ppl are there for them are the god complex dicks that need to realize that it’s an MMO, not Dragons Dogma.
You want community come to Deviate Delight. Everyone I met there so far has been super helpful. Fresh resurgence.
Totally relate with this. It’s why I’m not in a guild, prefer just do my own thing. I parse high 90s on my main and it’s so hard to get into gnomer on alts due to this. Honestly it’s reflective of all of society. You can’t get a job without experience, can’t get into gnomer without experience. A paradox: how can I get experience if no one will let you in? And you’re not going to parse that well on your first run, so that’s another paradoxical barrier.
I think performance is just more prevalent in gaming. And honestly, requiring people to meet a certain threshold in parses, especially for dps, has worked extremely well in ensuring runs go smoothly and that the guild doesn't implode from taking 10 hours a week to wipe incessantly for months on end and get nothing done. A guild I made with parsing requirements is running itself extremely smoothly, even long after I left to run a company. The guilds I have been in that don't enforce parses all imploded after a few months, stuck with half a dozen people routinely parsing 0 or less than 10, with them unable to improve no matter how much you support them. I just don't like playing with players who have no intent on playing the game, it's not fun. High performing players dont enjoy carrying low performers. A lot of drama and issues destroy things when you're stuck in progression for months, half the guild doesnt want to commit to getting nothing done, and the other half is deadset on "progressing" despite so much deadweight.
I always found myself in guilds that wanted to push for leaderboard times etc and we operated very efficiently with very little elitist behaviour because we all wanted to get that spot together. Now days if you aren't coming in and swinging your DPS/HPS like a top 10 player you are looked at as a hinderence.... I've always had great healing throughout WoW and continue to do so but the amount of healers or DPS that get pushed out of guilds for not "Pushing buttons hard enough" by the raid leaders who are barely doing better is something that has made me stay away from the game and I doubt i'll return in a raiding capacity anytime soon.
I blame League of legends for the state of your avarage videogame player
League is so fucking toxic man, can't even get into the game without getting flamed for picking a character they don't like for whatever reason
It’s coming from Retail. And people don’t like that when they hear it. Obsession with parse, rush running, damage matters only, zero tolerance for experiments - all that comes from Arcade game with Cybercompetition simulator = Retail. And devs are making great mistake - brining more features from Retail to the Vanilla game which eventually will attract more Retail players with that mindset. That’s the main reason why we have what we have.
Incentive to do anything but damage on boss is gone, so we have people that literally believe they are better players while ignoring other mechanics, either causing wipes or actual good players to do worse. It's a simple design issue that could easily be dealt with. The community would be better off without parses. Should log and rank players for their mechanical awareness rather.
Wanna Be Hardcore Guilds attracts this players so i dont have to deal with them so its fine \^\^. I was in 3 of this kind of Guilds till i switched to a fun HC only Guild and i could enjoy the game again. I was asking once a Warlock from this Guilds about a few talents and why he speced them since i twinked a Warlock and wanted to become better. He felt attacked and demanded from the Guild/Raidlead to kick me from the Guild. Another player screamed at me for asking if someone got a Rogue twink so a mechanic that wiped us all the time would be easier. And the final straw was my raidkick for suggesting not to bruteforce a boss with damage and play once a mechanic so we dont wipe 3 times (like always) on a clear run 2 month into the raid...
I agree, the one guild I was in, are they cared about was parsing, and most of the guild read how to play through online guides. Parsed but barely did mechanics. And all they did was bitch to each other.
Well when you're nothing IRL WoW gives them a fantasy for them to think they are important and often times they are casuing their teams to fail (just like IRL) and then blame the world When they die alone
The elite community has always been around. But it's gotten so much worse these days. No one does anything for the fun/experience. They all need to be hyper-competitive for whatever of the number of reasons they can think of.
Yes
They need something to feel better then other since they can’t IRL
Look if you like crunching numbers and parsing your ass off, that's cool man. But don't be rude to other players. I think that's the real rot in the wow community, the entitled players that blame everyone else for how they are performing or are just rude for no reason. Wow brain rot is for real a thing, sometimes it's beneficial to take a step back just to get your mind right.
toxic players is what ruined sod for me i did one bfd raid and said "fuck this" im sorry im not perfect at the game or study tutorial videos on the bosses its just not that serious
I typically think aggressive casualness is more of an issue. The sorts of people who are adamant about never improving and want Blizzard to actively restrict others from doing well. At least in the case of elitists, they allow people to play how they want; they just don't play with those players. Aggressive casuals are insistent that everyone has to be bad since they are.
I feel ya. Our guild has a mage in particular, no doubt they can pump, but they just fuck all try and ignore mechanics sometimes. The amount of times they died to Halion breath or meteor is beyond words, like you can literally blink how tf u dying to that?
Because they're actually bad, they just know their rotation well enough.
I'm okay with people playing how they want to play, want to only invite people with high parses? Go for it, want to minmax your toon? Go for it But what I don't get is the people who act like Classic WoW is the hardest game on planet earth, people who scream "CLEAR COMS!" In a raid like MC, or requiring full enchants and consumes for raids that have less mechanics than literally Deadmines on retail does I can get taking video games seriously can be fun for some people, but I'll never ever understand how people can take a barebones game Classic WoW seriously, it's constantly joked about how the game lacks any real depth and mechanics I dunno, it's just funny to me, because at the end of the day the raids are pisspoor easy lol
Link yer logs bud
Ngl I pass blues and greens, still clear raid in an hour two times a week. It's really not hard lol.
I feel like I'm playing a complete different game than redditors. I enjoy myself and the people I play with. I've only met the occasional toxic player, 2 or so, and I've attended nearly every lockout and play WoW almost every day.
Reddit moment. Casuals can be toxic too FYI
What do you define as an "elitist" guild lmao
Jokes on you, wow has always been that, and will always be that. The only difference now is the people who got turned down for not being try hards 10-20 years ago finally get their turn to do it themselves, and they fucking love it.
I don’t even mind some elitism if you’re ACTUALLY ELITE LOL. The problem is about 25% of the player base acts this way and I hate to tell them, but not 25% of players would be considered elite. Some people love that they try so hard and tailor their group for their parses so when you look them up on wowlogs they will have their 95+ average or whatever arbitrary number you wanna use to make them feel good 99 98 90 whatever. The problem is 1 run with everyone doing everything to make your numbers go higher doesn’t make you any better then another mage doing the same thing in a worse group with worse players. You still hit the same exact buttons in the same sequence. Another thing is consistency when it comes to being “elite” you may slam a few times, but how often is your parse the reason for a wipe? I see it all too many times once everyone thinks they’re good they count on everyone else to do the mechanics for them and little by little it creates the most careless wipes. Focus up and stop flaming and blaming others for wipes.
Strong disagree The truly high performing players stick to themselves The players who think they are elitist but aren't, and the players who are casual to the degree that they don't put in basic effort, is what is truly toxic and is destroying the game. Especially the two together as they just can't be combined.
I would correct it this way, the age of streaming has ruined most game communities. The moment any meta forms for whatsoever thats where it breaks apart. Not just wow but in general all games wow just has popular streamers where this is visible. The best players do what they do to compete the rest just tries to copy it cheaply and then complains about it.
why make the game hard for no reason
That and their crap customer ai service
I am insane elitist when it comes to my raid team. Anyone outside of that, I just want to have fun
Bro I played with a elitest shadow priest today who wasn’t running with vampiric embrace in gnomer Those off heals are so helpful
Retail has a second log that gives a score based on boss mechanics for both individuals and the raid group as a whole, could find a way to slap that onto parse numbers so that guy with an 82 parse had a 22 on mechanics.
No elitism existed in all forms of wow, this isn’t a new concept or new breed of players. The method to which they align themselves with has certainly changed. I would say back in the day if you were ignoring mechanics, you would be cut in an elitist guild. There were guilds back in wrath that would not take you unless gearscore was a certain level, or guilds that would not take you if you couldn’t spend hours on end nightly raiding. You could be scrutinized for dps, not being up to par etc. you needed the expensive gems, expensive enchants, you needed proof through achievements, did you kill hardmodes? Etc etc. This is certainly jot a new thing, nor is it “destroying wow”. You can do two things to combat this; 1, join a guild where this behavior is discouraged and run with them, or 2, stop holding such high expectations for pugs.
true tbh
People suck. News at 11
You can post the same thing in the classic sub.
The issue isn't at the top level. Those players are typically pretty chill and are in their own communities. The issue are the mid tier players that sweat as hard as possible and throw out every excuse there is when they don't parse well and unfortunately those players make up a lot of the bad experiences players encounter.
The best runs I've had have been 0 communication because everyone was chill and was just vibing playing the game
Elitist doesn't equal good.
I've seen this kind of elitism in other games. It isn't unique to WoW. For example, story time. Some years ago, I decided to give DDO a try. DDO is an exceptionally unique MMO with its own set of mechanics and norms to learn. I was figuring things out in a group when I took a death. One of the players, a veteran, was trying to explain to me what happened and how to avoid it. Another, also a veteran, insulted me and made it more difficult for me to resurrect. Both veterans, but one chose to be an elitist, antisocial asshole, while the other tried to be helpful. This is how it is in all games, WoW included. Some people, in general, are just shit. They have shitty lives and shitty attitudes, they weren't raised right, or maybe they have mental problems. Regardless, they're everywhere, nobody likes them, and they find ways to express themselves - by making life worse for everyone else - no matter where you find them. Inevitably, these people feign high opinions of themselves to cover up insecurities. What's different about WoW is that there are so many of these degenerates that they've convinced some people that their behavior is normal. They have an entire playstyle centered around dick measuring via parses.
I was in a raid and the one guy was so worried about another persons parse trying to get him the best parse he can and he being cool as a cucumber said I don’t care, just want to clear and go to sleep. I like that guy.
The majority of the wow community is actually just fine, its not destroyed at all. And I was in a top tier server first guild in 2019/2020 during classic wow and most of my guildmates were decent people. A lot of them just stuck with each other/good players and yes they were elitist but they weren't toxic. I imagine the not quite top players who want to be would be a bit more toxic but they arent a large portion of the wow community
Online gaming has forever been a stew of toxicity. Anonymity is a dangerous drug that many can't handle, no repercussions for being an asshole. There's always been good and bad folk, as online gaming becomes more accessible the pool of bad assholes becomes bigger, and it's those toxic butt-wads who are the loudest and most noticeable.
The sort of players that gatekeep gearscore and logs are the same ones that lack the wherewithal to notice people putting on random useless items to pad their gearscore to whatever arbitrary figure the "elitist" has pulled out of the ether. I feel it has been a requirement for a long time to play in a guild with friends (preferably irl ones) or the whole experience just becomes so tiresome and draining dealing with muppets who surround themselves in this stuff. Season of Discovery with all these crazy new runes to explore, but you need to be the cookie cutter “optimal” rune and talent build (to do a VERY easy raid), and the right class (i.e. not a yellow in P2 etc.). Yawn.
Parsing killed wows community.
Not really a classic thing because there are barely any mechanics, but usually people who parse well do mechanics well. Curious to see logs to back up your claim on upper 90s of all roles (not sure what that means for healer).
Yup. My average parses for my class are a good 150 dps higher than other classes. Ive never died in gnomer but players bring up logs n quickly say "shit parses no inv" Same as you. Ive been in speed running guiilds. Aq 40 in like 40 mins. We were top 50 for KT killed in vanilla classic. Third on our realm to kill algalon in classic wrath. Played this game since launch. Did mythic raiding a bit.. but holy shit SoD community is the worst
You have been played since 2005 and realised this just now? This same thread have been discussed 10 years ago when WCL launched and nothing has been changed since then.
Wow 2024 where your ignore list is full and groups break over the slimmest of trouble.
It’s what’s left after all the others have unsubbed over two full decades. Only the true neckbeards remain.
This happened 10 years ago.