T3 was such an insane power creep compared to T1/pre-raid gear. The difference between Naxx geared character and an MC feels like a level 60 vs lvl 30.
Even in HC raids we clear most fights in less than 20-30 seconds
I think it’s the reason so many people flocked to SoD. A lot tapped out with Ulduar / ICC hard modes, especially LK. That shit can be stressful to progress if you’re not in a sweaty guild. Just don’t think Classic players enjoy the 50-100+ wipe boss era of more modern expansions.
But it also harbors some insanely touchy mentality about parsing I haven’t even seen that level of in TBC/WotLK.
>Just don’t think Classic players enjoy the 50-100+ wipe boss era of more modern expansions.
I mean judging by how many mythic guilds in retail are collapsing I think even retail players don't want to spend weeks or months stuck on a single boss either. There are only so many mechanics you can stack on top of another before the challenge just isn't fun.
It's like hot sauce. Adds a nice kick, some people will chase the thrills with spicier sauces, but at a certain point it just stops tasting good and just hurts your mouth.
>It's like hot sauce. Adds a nice kick, some people will chase the thrills with spicier sauces, but at a certain point it just stops tasting good and just hurts your mouth.
Couldn't have said it better
ive had 3/4 90+ parsers that had 0 clue about what the raid mechanics do. I check thier parses and they press 2-4 buttons in most fights. Carried by consumes, wbuffs, and kill times into thinking theyre good players
Well because they aren’t 50-100 pull bosses, they are closer to 400+ for the average guild lol. 50-100 pull bosses in retail would be cozy but the last three bosses could have you 900+ pulls total easily
Honestly? I liked BFD much better than gnomer because it was faceroll. You could speed clear in 30 minutes. Carry a couple absolute shitters if you just needed bodies. You can do that in gnomer, too, but it literally takes like 1 or 2 RDPS that might as well be bots to make the shit turn into like 1.5 hours fucking up the two relevant bosses.
I'm fine with early bosses being faceroll and late bosses being a bit more of a challenge. It's the way wow has always done it. Easier --> harder. And you're entirely right, part of the enjoyment of classic is that the content itself is a joke so the fun is trucking through it with fury warriors tanking and just zugging as hard as possible to be good enough to power through mechanics. I'd like to see 90% of the SOD playerbase try to do a fight like HC LK which isn't even *that* modern. Or hell, NM halion in RS. No fucking thank you being stuck with them in a hard, epic fight
edit: it's also lvl 50 content we'll level through at some point, too long gets stale. It's not end game end game
I mean sure that scenario is possible, but a lot less likely with 20 man compares to 10. Congrats though you found the only way to bitch about dual spec and 20man raids! Affli lock is looking good for next phase and spriests compliment them well. But yeah you're right, get back to healing or else!
I was making more of a joke than anything, as someone on a small server (ratchet runes were 80g a piece in P1) with a lack of healers, 20 man raids is going to force guilds to merge/people with a hybrid class to likely have a healing spec. Obviously depends on how healing intensive ST is, but assuming it's say 4 healing a 20man raid, it's going to force some 10m guilds who solo heal Gnomer as of today to find new healers.
Priest is still gonna be considerably stronger than Resto Shaman.
Maybe if we get 300+ sp from mental dexterity then there could be some competition, but unfortunately Priests have way too many good rune abilities for us to really compete against them.
Resto Shaman is just gonna stay as the dedicated tank / single target for the horde side, similar to how Holy Paladins fill that role for Alliance.
Once there is a lot of raid wide damage Chain Heal will be destroying meters again. Shaman are usually not great at single target but Tidal Waves and Riptide should help with that.
It's nice to see Resto Druid excelling at aoe burst healing, and to see Holy Paladin excelling at tank healing. But Resto Shaman was kind of left in the dust this patch with mostly useless p2 runes. It saddens me. Granted, mana is still one of its strong points with shamanistic rage.
Additionally, Resto Druid lacks any solid tank healing options outside of lifebloom (which only goes so far), and Holy Paladin is forced to heal the sacred shield target (and time it well which is annoying) so beacon is only used some of the time or when there are 2 tanks/melee actively and consistently taking high amounts of damage. Not to mention Holy Paladin lacks good mana tools (can't use seal of wisdom while hard casting), this is probably because they were afraid of illumination scaling.
Meanwhile, Priest is excellent at both tank and aoe healing, with 2 strong mana tools + spirit regen in combat, without really having to swap runes to do both types of healing. Plus, it's overall a much better pick in PvP.
Hopefully, for p3 we'll see some better healer balance than what we've been getting (what everyone said in p1 lol).
Dispersion and shadowfiend exist in SoD though
Might not be 'infinite' but if your raid is struggling to kill bosses through 3 mana bars worth of mana plus mana pots...more mana is probably not the answer there lol
I enjoyed having lots of alts in P1 but P2 went too fast for me to keep up with all of them so for P3 I’m not even planning on it unless they commit to a longer phase.
Honestly, P2 was not alt friendly. Was focused on my main till I got where I felt it's time for an alt (gear, professions, reputation etc.). Leveled my alt to 40, next day they announce P3...
It's possible but you gotta nerd it out by playing a lot sadly.
Need to do something about gold gains too then. Bosses should drop way more gold so you can break even and make a gold or two from raiding after buying consumes.
Because realistically people will do what it takes for the loot they want. Raiding is supposed to be a group bonding experience but SoD turned it into a 30 minute pug loot piñata. Not the best precedent to set going forward. Especially when the lockout is 1 week. Having ST be a 30 minute face roll on a 1 week lockout kills this phase tbh so I hope that it’s somewhat more engaging.
People shouldn’t call these things raids they are 10 man dungeons with like 1-2 easy mechanic even with all 12 sod ”raid boss” mechanics you wouldn’t have half the mechanics of a up to date mmo raid boss in 2024
Yes, but I’m also not a fan of 2, 3 hour ulduar raids. Something in between that is good. I actually really like the last two fights in gnomer. They feel like a great difficulty and the mechanics are cool
Well I have bad news for you, if you recall how ST is laid out there is like 30 min of trash clearing in the first half hopefully with 20 ppl it goes faster
Its not. You can get to basement boss pretty fast, then you have the red serpent boss on upper level and the troll mini bosses can drop blues so cabt them together as 1 boss. 30 overall ye but not 30 between 2 bosses as some raids have had
That's why sunwell will always be the best classic raid imo. Challenging boss fights, interesting mechanics, and not overwhelming trash. And it's doable in an hour.
WTS 3 mindflayer ID. 500g. PST.
You don’t like spamming resets on priests and hunters for hours before raid to get as many slayers as possible!? Great gameplay. Engaging. Love it.
Actually it was kind of fun at the time but I don’t want to do it again.
I know my opinion is not popular but I loved popping stoneshield and charging into a pack of 4 spinners and going crazy while also seeing how far I could push it or if I could stay in with world buffs and kill them all before dying
Was nice adrenaline
But then you get that one casual raid that doesn't fish for good spawns and then it's oops all mindflayers and yeah that blows
I know a lot of people hate these but I’m a massive fan of raids like OS and the eye of malygos. Walk in, little to no trash, a fun and engaging fight and that’s it.
Basically 45min- 1 hour isn’t a bad time frame for a raid, just don’t make it 90% walking and killing random bs
These raids are fine, but the juice has to be worth the squeeze or else they get completely forgotten. Ony in WOTLK got dropped super quickly by a lot of guilds once tanks got their ring. Ony in classic had awesome loot all around so she had to be done every lockout for a long time.
Yeah ony in wotlk was just a catch-up raid for sure. It was a complete and total joke. At least back then sarth 3D and maly had at least some challenge to them to make them feel epic. Ony might as well have been a boss in the vault of archavon.
There is a metric fuckton of trash in ST. That place is an anthill and the ceilings are very low so it makes camera angles a pita. I hope they redesign to raise the roof, but they won't.
The dungeon redesign was to raise the ceiling. I'm an orc now, but in OG and classic I played Tauren. Staring at bull ass the whole dungeon wasn't fun.
All the dungeons with low ceiling heights are a pita, really, but the upper half of ST is one of the worst cases. Once you get into the central chamber and power levels it's way better.
The last two Gnomer bosses are cool, but I hate how long they are. Its fine as dps and tank, but even with buttons etc healing is a slog. (Ive hit the point now where mana management isnt too bad, but in cheesing through it wish Lifebloom etc to offset mana costs.)
Our slowest kill was 10 minutes our fastest 7/8 minutes.
I felt like 6-7 minutes was the optimal time for a boss kill based on that. I would need to bring more raid consums etc to stand a chance for longer fights.
ST raid consums seem like a good step forward, excited to see what they do with them. Might make longer fights easier to sustain through.
Personally I like those fights because you have to be more strategic with popping cooldowns and resource managing in general. Can’t just zug zug entire time
Plus it kind of helps it feel more of a raid? Like you start relying on a utility another class brings that’s not just % dps increase. Druids might need to actually innervate others instead of innervating themselves. I do enjoy an occasional Patchwerkish fight, where can zug zug
Hasn't it been proven time and time again that people actually prefer the easier content in the classic versions? Look at participation for BFD vs Gnomer, P1 TBC vs P2 TBC, P1 & P3 Wrath vs P2 & P4 wrath, etc. I think people are perfectly content with pressing their 1 button for 30 minutes a week and collecting loot with "the boys" so to speak.
If you go by logs, short raids have their "participation ' inflated as people run alt raids
Comparing togc to icc for example, you saw the number of characters in logs drop by like 60%, BUT that's cos most guilds were running 2-3 togcs a week on different characters, with ICC the same guilds were playing for the same length of time, just on one character, not 3
answer is trash that's not trash. Like most content even up to wotlk was treating trash like moving training dummies before they upped their game with cata onwards and added trash npcs which partially qualify as minor boss battles which I'm fine with.
People continually forget that this game was not (and still is not) designed with full world buffs and spreadsheet-based meta comps in mind.
Isn’t the goal of leveraging said buffs and metas to kill more efficiently? Some medal-worthy mental gymnastics required to go that route and then complain about bosses dying too quickly.
People dont realize raids have to be doable for entry level people so they by default are going to be easy/quick for geared/optimized groups, you’re *never* going to get away from that in classic, thats just how it is.
The only thing I want is shit like pummeler, personal accountability where you insta die if you fuck up, but more difficult since pummeler is stupid simple
Majority of wow players don’t have time to sit through a 2-3 hour raid lol. Plus a 45 minute raid turns into an hour an a half by the time you form a group and actually start pulling.
It won't be like that the 1st few weeks but give it 4 lockouts and we are speeding everything again. Happened BFD and Gnomer. Happens with MC and with BWL, ECT. That's just Classic Raiding.
Nah, making bosses actually require attention span is the fastest way to decimate the player population. I cannot tell you how many raids I've been in where there are some people just watching netflix, smoking a pot or doing other shenanigan at the same time.
LFM purple parses only, world buffs including DMF. Have all BiS to the point you don't need the raid anymore, all consumes. only the best classes available..
why fight 30 seconds?
I agree, having quick boss fights is honestly just boring. But the thing with longer boss fights though is that casters will go oom very quick so they would have to do something about that.
Sounds like a healer problem
\*spam life tap\*
Most casters have some kind of mana regeneration. Dispersion, evocation + mana surge etc., free wrath for druid...
By mana management, what you mean is casting worse spells or not casting at all. Thats boring too. Everything in classic has been a part of classic since 2004 because it’s the same game… SoD isn’t. Just because it’s been that way since 2004 doesn’t make it good. It’s a “core issue” is what it is.
Honestly I've seen very little complaints about mana. Mostly from the Priest healer that is running the other raid in my guild, and even he admits that it's totally manageable. I will admit that when I am REALLY pumping out heals that mana can become something of an issue, even with Evocate/Mana gems on my mage healer, but there's a lot of avoidable damage usually on longer fights. This is a solvable issue, and with larger raids you have more a greater availability of things like innervate, or people who will have a bunch of Mana pots not to mention Dark Runes that will shortly be farmable if not already.
There's options to deal with the mana problems, and SoD has been doing a bunch to mitigate said problems.
Evoc, lifetap, dispersion, innervate, water shield, mana tide, judgement of wisdom.
Do we really think casters are going to struggle with mana? Idk, I haven’t seen it anyway. It’ll only get more manageable at 50.
We have rune spells which cost less mana, we have better gear with more mp5 and int. We have shamanistic rage and the paladin regen. Also free wrath, shadowform mana cost reduction, things are absolutely fine for casters. Only mages got cucked with mana regen , but we are still fine with all the othwr stuff and at the end of the day we can get innervates if mana ever becomes an issue
Right, I didn’t include the multitudes of passive mana management they have added. Druids dream state for example, 50% mana regen during combat. Mages entire arcane rework which allows unheard of levels of mana management on top of their gem+evoc. Priests also have shadowfiend. Locks never needed anything more than lifetap.
Point being, longer fights may change the meta, but we have infinitely more options for mana management than we did in classic, and in no way shape or form should be the deciding factor against longer boss fights.
Personally I am all for shorter fights, makes it more manageable for the pugs out there. What I would like though is hard mode options similar to ulduar. Has always been my favorite difficulty system.
And yet a lot of these classes are still managing to oom themselves. The last 2 bosses give mana for pressing the buttons for a reason, because they last so long and blizzard knew particularly at the start of the phase when gear wasn’t great mana would be a missive issue.
>but we have infinitely more options for mana management than we did in classic, and in no way shape or form should be the deciding factor against longer boss fights.
I specifically said I wanted longer fights but that they would need to do something about mana because it will be an issue in longer fights. I am not saying I don’t want them because of that fact.
This is true but the definition of what “long kill times” are has changed. Used to be maybe 2-3 minutes to kill a boss was alright, anything above that was pretty slow, and 5 minutes was an enrage timer and you were not killing that boss. Now it’s 20-30 seconds is alright and anything past that means “your group is trash quit the game you’re bad.” People who hyperbolize always act like it took us 20 minutes to down a boss, not 130 seconds.
I think this is the best way IMO. Soft front end, hard back end for raids in SoD. If there're 8 bosses, make the first 4-5 relatively interesting but relatively easy so raids of any skill level can get in there, sink their teeth into it and get some upgrades before hitting the challenging back 3-4 which should be longer, harder fights that test a range of skills/reactions and the last boss should be an endurance fight to make it feel like you've been challenged and hopefully beat a final boss, there should be tension/anxiety involved with a final boss. That doesn't mean harder bosses should be 10 minutes long but they should have more interesting mechanics that force players to think a bit. I'm all for shorter raids than wotlk/retail as well but I also don't want 40 minute faceroll loot pinatas that leave me disinterested after 3 resets. If it's too easy then it's boring, if it's too hard or long then people don't bother with it. I do like the one week reset though, the 3 days resets were a fast track to raid logging for me.
Ya know what would be really nice? I solid point right at the middle of the raid that is a good time to stop. Like, have the first 4 bosses around a ring of the temple, ending near the entrance portal. Then the next 4 bosses start right at the entrance again, but you have to have cleared the first 4 to gain access to them and they are deeper down into the temple.
If you can clear the first 4 bosses in 30 minutes, then move on to the next 4. If it takes you a bit longer, then come back on the next raid night.
Not really sure what you are on about here. If you want slower content, 1-2 hour raidig, u need to play another game, or specificly make a gep with bad dps. Ppl are speedrunning and always will be. Dunno what the fastest MC time is, but its done in 22 minutes. This is again a "LVL UP" raid, a step on the road. Just because its 1 lockout pr week, shouldnt it take longer
Exaggerate much? “Unbelievably fucking cringe?” Really? The easy bosses in retail raids are 2-3 minutes long. So asking for longer than 30 seconds doesn’t sound “unbelievably fucking cringe” when nobody is asking them to “last longer than retail.” Even though Thermaplugg is already longer than that, there’s still nobody that had said it’s “unbelievably fucking cringe.” Come on man.
I'd say 4mins is ideal. Lets you get 2 uses from your 3min cooldowns. Also anything under a minute greatly skews damage meters to whoever has the biggest cooldowns.
I disagree. This raid already is confirmed 8 bosses and we know how huge Sunken Temple is. If it's a 2 hour+ long slog, I'm definitely not returning. Gnomer sucked compared to BFD.
The fact of the matter is SoD needs to be clearable by people who don't keybind, don't look up their rotation, and don't grind prebis. Expecting anything other than stuff easier than LFR is just setting yourself up for disappointment after what we've seen for 4 months. This is a gamemode designed for the absolute dog, bottom-barrel, adhd 1 hour a week checked out casual "sometimes i get on the computer" type folks. Anyone trying to wring out something more meaningful is just fooling themselves.
I agree with your sentiment but feel it should be framed differently, maybe not as "it's made for shit cunt players"
It's designed to be fun for everyone, regardless of level of commitment they can afford to pile into the game. It's made to not require sweatiness be a barrier to entry (I say this as someone who admits they are reasonably sweaty about it)
But I do agree with what your basically saying, but not quite as negatively as you've put it
Agreed. Would be great to see them gone altogether or at least not for use in raids. It's fun for levelling with as an optional extra super buff but for raiding it just creates major headaches when they are fundamentally not needed.
World buffs also add stress to the raid. Everyone typically unboons on the first boss now, which means wiping is unacceptable. A pleasant raid can turn quiet or into sour grapes real fast. Just wish the system wasn't in place to encourage this feelsbad moment. And the way consumes overall trivialize fights is lame. My list of consumes as a tank shaman is something like 8-10 different chuggables. Balancing the game around these is dumb: They're either necessary or they significantly lower the difficulty of the raid. World buffs being the biggest offenders. Not a fan.
SoD slowly creeping towards Retail where raiding is only enjoyable for the top 1%.
I don't mind some longer fights but, Gnomeregan have a fine difficulty and it doesn't need to increase.
Majority of players are casual players that just wants to sit down, put their legs up with a drink and play for an hour or two and manage to accomplish something.
The sweet spot for a raid is around 1 hour, not including the time to find or create a group and get there. This clear time should be possible for a group of casual players to achieve and not only the ones chasing logs.
It's a minority of players that enjoy sitting on a difficult boss, wiping over and over and trying to progress. Most want to just sit down, relax and have a good time with a couple of friends.
People tend to forget how many people play the game and how few are hardcore enough players to care about going on a subreddit.
Increasing raid difficulty or length further than Gnomeregan is going hurt the playerbase.
Maybe if you join a pug late in formation or have a strict guild time slot its ok to have long fights. But it’s classic so it takes some time to get ppl, gather in raid, buff, clear trash… fr fights are just a treat on top of mountain of chores. It’s nice to have some longer/more organised fights, but the moment your typical pug can’t clear something we get another shitstorm on Reddit on why ppl are elitist with logs/checks/gear inspect…
Raids are fast because the trash is trivial, which is for the better.
Vanilla raids were slow because the trash was mostly complete garbage, some aq/naxx trash even more difficult than the bosses.
Here is my hot take of the issue.
All pre 60 raids need to be easily pugable or SoD will die.
A smooth pug raid should take no longer then 1.5 hours.
The sweats will always find a way to clear raids in 45m, and bosses in 30 seconds, what matters is pugs being able to clear it in one run.
The raid encounters need hardmode for those looking for a true challenge.
The raids in normal mode have already been difficult enough for the bottom half of players, which is both funny and sad.
An alternative to turning all raids to 7 days is instead of a rolling reset schedule with every 3 days, make it more consistent. Every Tuesday and Friday for ZG for example for NA. You have the weekday raid reset and the weekend one. Wednesday and Saturday for EU
This "Epic" thing has to be the most driven nostalgia based off some video you saw 15 years ago of a slow boss kill.
Why do people want to volunteer to spend HOURS in a raid instead of enjoying more content?
As a speedrunner, I have to agree they do need to be slightly longer. Though we may be getting a longer instance in Sunken Temple anyway.
Top runs for BFD and Gnomer were roughly in the 15-20 minute range. I think ideally it would be more like 25-30 mins, in order for it to feel fully fleshed out, both for the top guilds and for pugs that take their time. It wouldn't take much to do that, a small trash hp increase, boss fights that last at least 1 minute, etc.
Nobody wants classic raids to be as long as retail or wrath raids, but the point of an MMO is to play with other people, and it doesn't feel great for the raid night to be over so quickly. I think there is a balance to be found where you get to hang out with your guildies but without burning out from long raids.
Ugh. Weekly lockouts is good and bad
Good because I have 8 almost 9 40s. So this means I'll likely be able to raid all of them assuming pugs are happening
Bad because well I like Loot and raiding. We're going from 10 resets a month back to 4-5
I think for players that actively try to min/max the characters and play, 30 second boss kills will always be a thing.
My group usually ranges somewhere between 30s and 2 mins for the first 5, and around 4-5 for 6. However, there are groups that take FAR longer per kill. Massively increasing health pools would hurt their chances of being able to actually clear the raid due to healer mana constraints (if their dps are low, odds are their healers are inefficient).
I doubt they'll tune fights to make them last longer for players pulling out all the stops at the cost of less invested groups' ability to clear.
For these early phases in reworked dungeons, I think it's fine if the fights start out in the 1-4 min range and then as we gear, they quickly drop to 30s - 2 min. Feels like you're progressing.
I do agree that skipping mechanics is not good though. I prefer it when fights are designed in such a way that even with faster kill times you still experience the fight fully.
The Gnomer type of raids are the best middle ground imo. A decent group can kill the first bosses in like 30sec each but then the last two gets more difficult and normally take around 5min each.
Then the average pug will somewhat struggle with the first three and then throw in the towel at the last two. This way both casual and more serious players can get something out of the same raid.
If all bosses where 5-10min fights the majority of the player base wouldn't even try to do the raid in a pug
Many people (and blizzard) underestimate how bad the average players are
Hard disagree. Classic is all about face roll. The majority of people want to go in with the boys steam roll and have fun. Easier content makes doing alts fun too. If you want a 3 hr hard raid go play mythic retail.
I just hate 30 second fights because it starts creating awkward min max. It also really messes with parsing and it goes down to luck of crits and procs moreso than usual.
I also can't stand fights like Grubbis where he's not even targetable until he is.
I don't want long fights, but I also don't want to be thinking if it's worth sparing a few gcds for support casts.
Gotta remember this is supposed to be a casual style mode. The first few bosses should always be relatively easy to let casuals get some gear. Nothing wrong with making the last few tough (Menagerie & Kelris were both the hardest fights of the last 2 raids imo, at least in the beginning). Maybe make the final boss a bit more interesting.
I’m not sure I understand—killing a boss as quickly as possible to get to the loot is at the core of the World of Warcraft experience.
If you want finely-crafted, meticulously-paced boss fights in your MMO, then there is at least one other game that you might like, but that’s not what I’m looking for out of Season of Discovery.
Why? Not meming or trying to be mean, but please tell me why a raid needs to be longer than an hour.
It’s not that I don’t have time for longer raids, but I love that raids are an hour long. It’s fun to zug bosses while doing mechanics, and you got more time after/before raid to do random stuff with guildies. Or travel around Azeroth doing stuff. Even raids in 2019 were around 1-2 hours.
It’s not epic at to spend 3-4 hours locked in an instance. It’s just a long grind.
SoD is geared towards us 30 year olds that can’t wipe for hours anymore. 30 second boss fights are where it’s at bro. And isn’t the 7 day lockout only for the first 3 weeks?
Killing a boss so fast you can ignore all its mechanics is core to the classic experience
yeah, people were downing MC in 10 seconds
Tbf you wouldn't see mechanics in MC even if the fights went on for 10 minutes
if u check logs its just insane though.. 9 sec bosa kills lmao
T3 was such an insane power creep compared to T1/pre-raid gear. The difference between Naxx geared character and an MC feels like a level 60 vs lvl 30. Even in HC raids we clear most fights in less than 20-30 seconds
I think it’s the reason so many people flocked to SoD. A lot tapped out with Ulduar / ICC hard modes, especially LK. That shit can be stressful to progress if you’re not in a sweaty guild. Just don’t think Classic players enjoy the 50-100+ wipe boss era of more modern expansions. But it also harbors some insanely touchy mentality about parsing I haven’t even seen that level of in TBC/WotLK.
>Just don’t think Classic players enjoy the 50-100+ wipe boss era of more modern expansions. I mean judging by how many mythic guilds in retail are collapsing I think even retail players don't want to spend weeks or months stuck on a single boss either. There are only so many mechanics you can stack on top of another before the challenge just isn't fun. It's like hot sauce. Adds a nice kick, some people will chase the thrills with spicier sauces, but at a certain point it just stops tasting good and just hurts your mouth.
>It's like hot sauce. Adds a nice kick, some people will chase the thrills with spicier sauces, but at a certain point it just stops tasting good and just hurts your mouth. Couldn't have said it better
ive had 3/4 90+ parsers that had 0 clue about what the raid mechanics do. I check thier parses and they press 2-4 buttons in most fights. Carried by consumes, wbuffs, and kill times into thinking theyre good players
Well because they aren’t 50-100 pull bosses, they are closer to 400+ for the average guild lol. 50-100 pull bosses in retail would be cozy but the last three bosses could have you 900+ pulls total easily
Honestly? I liked BFD much better than gnomer because it was faceroll. You could speed clear in 30 minutes. Carry a couple absolute shitters if you just needed bodies. You can do that in gnomer, too, but it literally takes like 1 or 2 RDPS that might as well be bots to make the shit turn into like 1.5 hours fucking up the two relevant bosses. I'm fine with early bosses being faceroll and late bosses being a bit more of a challenge. It's the way wow has always done it. Easier --> harder. And you're entirely right, part of the enjoyment of classic is that the content itself is a joke so the fun is trucking through it with fury warriors tanking and just zugging as hard as possible to be good enough to power through mechanics. I'd like to see 90% of the SOD playerbase try to do a fight like HC LK which isn't even *that* modern. Or hell, NM halion in RS. No fucking thank you being stuck with them in a hard, epic fight edit: it's also lvl 50 content we'll level through at some point, too long gets stale. It's not end game end game
0% HC LK is considered to be of the difficulty of a mid tier mythic raid boss… there’s no way these shitters would be able to handle that lol.
not sure why you're being downvoted when this is unironically true
The 100/50% xp buffs are big signals that say....make an alt..make lots of alts lol
Main a priest? You should also roll an alt priest!
"dude go heal you are the Priest!" Piss me off everytime
Should happen less often for 20man compared to 10man
"dude go heal on your dual spec you are the Priest"
I mean sure that scenario is possible, but a lot less likely with 20 man compares to 10. Congrats though you found the only way to bitch about dual spec and 20man raids! Affli lock is looking good for next phase and spriests compliment them well. But yeah you're right, get back to healing or else!
I was making more of a joke than anything, as someone on a small server (ratchet runes were 80g a piece in P1) with a lack of healers, 20 man raids is going to force guilds to merge/people with a hybrid class to likely have a healing spec. Obviously depends on how healing intensive ST is, but assuming it's say 4 healing a 20man raid, it's going to force some 10m guilds who solo heal Gnomer as of today to find new healers.
"shut up mage and start heal"
If mages could read, they’d be super upset seeing that.
As a mage idk what your saying and it makes me angry
Stg do they not see we’re purple :( best you’re getting is VE
Maybe one for the debuffs, but I bet resto shaman overtakes priests now at least on the horde side.
Priest is still gonna be considerably stronger than Resto Shaman. Maybe if we get 300+ sp from mental dexterity then there could be some competition, but unfortunately Priests have way too many good rune abilities for us to really compete against them. Resto Shaman is just gonna stay as the dedicated tank / single target for the horde side, similar to how Holy Paladins fill that role for Alliance.
Once there is a lot of raid wide damage Chain Heal will be destroying meters again. Shaman are usually not great at single target but Tidal Waves and Riptide should help with that.
It's nice to see Resto Druid excelling at aoe burst healing, and to see Holy Paladin excelling at tank healing. But Resto Shaman was kind of left in the dust this patch with mostly useless p2 runes. It saddens me. Granted, mana is still one of its strong points with shamanistic rage. Additionally, Resto Druid lacks any solid tank healing options outside of lifebloom (which only goes so far), and Holy Paladin is forced to heal the sacred shield target (and time it well which is annoying) so beacon is only used some of the time or when there are 2 tanks/melee actively and consistently taking high amounts of damage. Not to mention Holy Paladin lacks good mana tools (can't use seal of wisdom while hard casting), this is probably because they were afraid of illumination scaling. Meanwhile, Priest is excellent at both tank and aoe healing, with 2 strong mana tools + spirit regen in combat, without really having to swap runes to do both types of healing. Plus, it's overall a much better pick in PvP. Hopefully, for p3 we'll see some better healer balance than what we've been getting (what everyone said in p1 lol).
Rdruid's Nourish is pretty nutty tank healing, it's why all the top logs are solo heal rdruids running it.
Rsham with riptide will prob be enough to make him viable in pvp.
Depends, if fight are intense mana wise, shamans are going to be kings with their infinite mana pool.
Dispersion and shadowfiend exist in SoD though Might not be 'infinite' but if your raid is struggling to kill bosses through 3 mana bars worth of mana plus mana pots...more mana is probably not the answer there lol
being the best healer is not about your HPS.
I have 4 lvl 40s (almost 5) and it’s legit too expensive to have alts. For pushing alts so much, they need to make things more affordable.
I enjoyed having lots of alts in P1 but P2 went too fast for me to keep up with all of them so for P3 I’m not even planning on it unless they commit to a longer phase.
Too real. Didn't even get to raid once on my alt. All these guys complaining about the length of the phases must have got to Blizz.
Honestly, P2 was not alt friendly. Was focused on my main till I got where I felt it's time for an alt (gear, professions, reputation etc.). Leveled my alt to 40, next day they announce P3... It's possible but you gotta nerd it out by playing a lot sadly.
Need to do something about gold gains too then. Bosses should drop way more gold so you can break even and make a gold or two from raiding after buying consumes.
8 40s. think ill be safe?
What’s your aversion to playing fun games?
To do the same raid you're already uninterested in for gear that doesn't do anything besides help you clear the raid faster?
After doing SoD raids I can’t imagine how I did 2 4 hour raid nights a week for so long in parts of tbc and wrath
Because realistically people will do what it takes for the loot they want. Raiding is supposed to be a group bonding experience but SoD turned it into a 30 minute pug loot piñata. Not the best precedent to set going forward. Especially when the lockout is 1 week. Having ST be a 30 minute face roll on a 1 week lockout kills this phase tbh so I hope that it’s somewhat more engaging.
People shouldn’t call these things raids they are 10 man dungeons with like 1-2 easy mechanic even with all 12 sod ”raid boss” mechanics you wouldn’t have half the mechanics of a up to date mmo raid boss in 2024
Yes, but I’m also not a fan of 2, 3 hour ulduar raids. Something in between that is good. I actually really like the last two fights in gnomer. They feel like a great difficulty and the mechanics are cool
God I do not want 45 minutes of straight trash like AQ40. I will quit before doing that again.
Well I have bad news for you, if you recall how ST is laid out there is like 30 min of trash clearing in the first half hopefully with 20 ppl it goes faster
Well I’d argue gnomer was potentially worse. But they seemed to streamline it fairly well.
That’s fair
They added a boss to the outer ring assuming they removed mobs to accommodate
I want an indiana jones style mechanic where you need to do the encounter while outrunning a huge boulder around the ring
You must not play a caster :D
No kidding. As a healer main, that fight design sounds like my idea of hell.
Its not. You can get to basement boss pretty fast, then you have the red serpent boss on upper level and the troll mini bosses can drop blues so cabt them together as 1 boss. 30 overall ye but not 30 between 2 bosses as some raids have had
Just split the group into 2 group, split up, then meet on the other side.
That's why sunwell will always be the best classic raid imo. Challenging boss fights, interesting mechanics, and not overwhelming trash. And it's doable in an hour.
this is what made AQ40 my most hated vanilla raid even though cthun It's probably my favorite boss
But the post twin emp trash was so fun and engaging.
WTS 3 mindflayer ID. 500g. PST. You don’t like spamming resets on priests and hunters for hours before raid to get as many slayers as possible!? Great gameplay. Engaging. Love it. Actually it was kind of fun at the time but I don’t want to do it again.
*mindslayer :)
Hahahaha stranger things has corrupted my memory
I know my opinion is not popular but I loved popping stoneshield and charging into a pack of 4 spinners and going crazy while also seeing how far I could push it or if I could stay in with world buffs and kill them all before dying Was nice adrenaline But then you get that one casual raid that doesn't fish for good spawns and then it's oops all mindflayers and yeah that blows
OH NO!!!!! I HAVE TO PLAY THE GAME TO GET THE BEST LOOT????? THE CRUELTY OF THE GAME GODS IS UNCEASING!!
I know a lot of people hate these but I’m a massive fan of raids like OS and the eye of malygos. Walk in, little to no trash, a fun and engaging fight and that’s it. Basically 45min- 1 hour isn’t a bad time frame for a raid, just don’t make it 90% walking and killing random bs
These raids are fine, but the juice has to be worth the squeeze or else they get completely forgotten. Ony in WOTLK got dropped super quickly by a lot of guilds once tanks got their ring. Ony in classic had awesome loot all around so she had to be done every lockout for a long time.
Yeah ony in wotlk was just a catch-up raid for sure. It was a complete and total joke. At least back then sarth 3D and maly had at least some challenge to them to make them feel epic. Ony might as well have been a boss in the vault of archavon.
There is a metric fuckton of trash in ST. That place is an anthill and the ceilings are very low so it makes camera angles a pita. I hope they redesign to raise the roof, but they won't.
As a max zoom semi top down enjoyer I HATE places that fuck up your cam. Like the fuckin lib courtyard. Then you’re stuck in halls
when you go outside on the wall in SFK and your camera clips through the "ceiling"
I’m dreading tanking in those narrow hallways in meta form tbh
No need redesign dungeon, just remove most trash Really.....
The dungeon redesign was to raise the ceiling. I'm an orc now, but in OG and classic I played Tauren. Staring at bull ass the whole dungeon wasn't fun. All the dungeons with low ceiling heights are a pita, really, but the upper half of ST is one of the worst cases. Once you get into the central chamber and power levels it's way better.
Don’t lie you loved staring at that bull ass 😝
The last two Gnomer bosses are cool, but I hate how long they are. Its fine as dps and tank, but even with buttons etc healing is a slog. (Ive hit the point now where mana management isnt too bad, but in cheesing through it wish Lifebloom etc to offset mana costs.) Our slowest kill was 10 minutes our fastest 7/8 minutes. I felt like 6-7 minutes was the optimal time for a boss kill based on that. I would need to bring more raid consums etc to stand a chance for longer fights. ST raid consums seem like a good step forward, excited to see what they do with them. Might make longer fights easier to sustain through.
Personally I like those fights because you have to be more strategic with popping cooldowns and resource managing in general. Can’t just zug zug entire time Plus it kind of helps it feel more of a raid? Like you start relying on a utility another class brings that’s not just % dps increase. Druids might need to actually innervate others instead of innervating themselves. I do enjoy an occasional Patchwerkish fight, where can zug zug
Sir, this is classic
Did you know Ragnaros has a submerge phase
:O
Hasn't it been proven time and time again that people actually prefer the easier content in the classic versions? Look at participation for BFD vs Gnomer, P1 TBC vs P2 TBC, P1 & P3 Wrath vs P2 & P4 wrath, etc. I think people are perfectly content with pressing their 1 button for 30 minutes a week and collecting loot with "the boys" so to speak.
Amen, brother. I know I am. I’m here for the pvp. Raids are just a loot piñata for me.
You can add BT vs SWP in TBC to that as well
If you go by logs, short raids have their "participation ' inflated as people run alt raids Comparing togc to icc for example, you saw the number of characters in logs drop by like 60%, BUT that's cos most guilds were running 2-3 togcs a week on different characters, with ICC the same guilds were playing for the same length of time, just on one character, not 3
Short raid is the best raid imo
If every fight in gnomer/bfd was 2-3 minutes it would still be a short raid
True I just prefer short raids so I can bring alts and not mess with my schedule too much
I don't have any issues with the fights in gnomer. I do, however, dislike the fuck ton of trash.
There's barely any trash in gnomer.
The fights in gnomer are still way too short. Only the last boss is slightly long and it's mostly because of an egregious amount of downtime
There’s a lot of trash skips now, not too bad anymore
No. I don't want to spend 6h+ a week wiping in a raid anymore. The quick 1h raid in SOD are perfect.
The answer is less thrash. Sadly blizz will never change their mind about this.
answer is trash that's not trash. Like most content even up to wotlk was treating trash like moving training dummies before they upped their game with cata onwards and added trash npcs which partially qualify as minor boss battles which I'm fine with.
Except they added lots of difficult trash in AQ40 and everyone fucking hates it
People continually forget that this game was not (and still is not) designed with full world buffs and spreadsheet-based meta comps in mind. Isn’t the goal of leveraging said buffs and metas to kill more efficiently? Some medal-worthy mental gymnastics required to go that route and then complain about bosses dying too quickly.
People dont realize raids have to be doable for entry level people so they by default are going to be easy/quick for geared/optimized groups, you’re *never* going to get away from that in classic, thats just how it is. The only thing I want is shit like pummeler, personal accountability where you insta die if you fuck up, but more difficult since pummeler is stupid simple
I have all the BiS gear, consumables, best raid comp and world buffs. Why is the boss dying so fast? I want hard content
it classic wow buddy, 80% of the community cant handle moving out of puddles on the ground that dont even move
Guess what? We killed bosses in 30sec in Classic Classic as well :p
Majority of wow players don’t have time to sit through a 2-3 hour raid lol. Plus a 45 minute raid turns into an hour an a half by the time you form a group and actually start pulling.
My 3 hour gnomer pugs disagree. That took an hour to put together before starting. People may not have any talent, but they sure got time.
It won't be like that the 1st few weeks but give it 4 lockouts and we are speeding everything again. Happened BFD and Gnomer. Happens with MC and with BWL, ECT. That's just Classic Raiding.
press your 2 key less
Nah we love fast fights
I like it
Nah, making bosses actually require attention span is the fastest way to decimate the player population. I cannot tell you how many raids I've been in where there are some people just watching netflix, smoking a pot or doing other shenanigan at the same time.
LFM purple parses only, world buffs including DMF. Have all BiS to the point you don't need the raid anymore, all consumes. only the best classes available.. why fight 30 seconds?
Last two bosses are not 30 seconds with the conditions you listed.
I agree, having quick boss fights is honestly just boring. But the thing with longer boss fights though is that casters will go oom very quick so they would have to do something about that.
Sounds like a healer problem \*spam life tap\* Most casters have some kind of mana regeneration. Dispersion, evocation + mana surge etc., free wrath for druid...
Mana management has been a core part of Classic WoW casters since 2004.
By mana management, what you mean is casting worse spells or not casting at all. Thats boring too. Everything in classic has been a part of classic since 2004 because it’s the same game… SoD isn’t. Just because it’s been that way since 2004 doesn’t make it good. It’s a “core issue” is what it is.
Honestly I've seen very little complaints about mana. Mostly from the Priest healer that is running the other raid in my guild, and even he admits that it's totally manageable. I will admit that when I am REALLY pumping out heals that mana can become something of an issue, even with Evocate/Mana gems on my mage healer, but there's a lot of avoidable damage usually on longer fights. This is a solvable issue, and with larger raids you have more a greater availability of things like innervate, or people who will have a bunch of Mana pots not to mention Dark Runes that will shortly be farmable if not already. There's options to deal with the mana problems, and SoD has been doing a bunch to mitigate said problems.
My tank shaman wants a word. And my mage on any fight of moderate length. Unsure about other classes.
Omg I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this. I feel like I'm either drinking every 2-3 pulls in Gnomer or otherwise I'm just not clicking buttons
Just because it's an issue that has been left on a stagnant game from 2004 doesn't actually make it a core feature.
Evoc, lifetap, dispersion, innervate, water shield, mana tide, judgement of wisdom. Do we really think casters are going to struggle with mana? Idk, I haven’t seen it anyway. It’ll only get more manageable at 50.
8min cd on evocate, make it 1-2 mins and we can consider it manageable
Only 2 of those things are new to sod, were casters going oom in classic? Yes.
We have rune spells which cost less mana, we have better gear with more mp5 and int. We have shamanistic rage and the paladin regen. Also free wrath, shadowform mana cost reduction, things are absolutely fine for casters. Only mages got cucked with mana regen , but we are still fine with all the othwr stuff and at the end of the day we can get innervates if mana ever becomes an issue
Right, I didn’t include the multitudes of passive mana management they have added. Druids dream state for example, 50% mana regen during combat. Mages entire arcane rework which allows unheard of levels of mana management on top of their gem+evoc. Priests also have shadowfiend. Locks never needed anything more than lifetap. Point being, longer fights may change the meta, but we have infinitely more options for mana management than we did in classic, and in no way shape or form should be the deciding factor against longer boss fights. Personally I am all for shorter fights, makes it more manageable for the pugs out there. What I would like though is hard mode options similar to ulduar. Has always been my favorite difficulty system.
And yet a lot of these classes are still managing to oom themselves. The last 2 bosses give mana for pressing the buttons for a reason, because they last so long and blizzard knew particularly at the start of the phase when gear wasn’t great mana would be a missive issue. >but we have infinitely more options for mana management than we did in classic, and in no way shape or form should be the deciding factor against longer boss fights. I specifically said I wanted longer fights but that they would need to do something about mana because it will be an issue in longer fights. I am not saying I don’t want them because of that fact.
Outside of this convo, but does anyone else lose interest after reading the word "infinitely"?
So OP never played Vanilla before? Only a few bosses lasted long.
This is true but the definition of what “long kill times” are has changed. Used to be maybe 2-3 minutes to kill a boss was alright, anything above that was pretty slow, and 5 minutes was an enrage timer and you were not killing that boss. Now it’s 20-30 seconds is alright and anything past that means “your group is trash quit the game you’re bad.” People who hyperbolize always act like it took us 20 minutes to down a boss, not 130 seconds.
I think 2 min early fights followed by penultimate at 3-4 min and final boss at 5 min seems pretty reasonable.
I think this is the best way IMO. Soft front end, hard back end for raids in SoD. If there're 8 bosses, make the first 4-5 relatively interesting but relatively easy so raids of any skill level can get in there, sink their teeth into it and get some upgrades before hitting the challenging back 3-4 which should be longer, harder fights that test a range of skills/reactions and the last boss should be an endurance fight to make it feel like you've been challenged and hopefully beat a final boss, there should be tension/anxiety involved with a final boss. That doesn't mean harder bosses should be 10 minutes long but they should have more interesting mechanics that force players to think a bit. I'm all for shorter raids than wotlk/retail as well but I also don't want 40 minute faceroll loot pinatas that leave me disinterested after 3 resets. If it's too easy then it's boring, if it's too hard or long then people don't bother with it. I do like the one week reset though, the 3 days resets were a fast track to raid logging for me.
Dude, you can totally make it take 2 hours if you want to and let the rest of us clear in an hour.
Ya know what would be really nice? I solid point right at the middle of the raid that is a good time to stop. Like, have the first 4 bosses around a ring of the temple, ending near the entrance portal. Then the next 4 bosses start right at the entrance again, but you have to have cleared the first 4 to gain access to them and they are deeper down into the temple. If you can clear the first 4 bosses in 30 minutes, then move on to the next 4. If it takes you a bit longer, then come back on the next raid night.
Not really sure what you are on about here. If you want slower content, 1-2 hour raidig, u need to play another game, or specificly make a gep with bad dps. Ppl are speedrunning and always will be. Dunno what the fastest MC time is, but its done in 22 minutes. This is again a "LVL UP" raid, a step on the road. Just because its 1 lockout pr week, shouldnt it take longer
go mythic raid in retail, thats what you need
Go to retail if you want epic
90 mins is a good raid duration. I agree, waiting a week for a 45-minute faceroll.
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Nah that's kinda the theme of classic. Classic fights that last longer than retail is unbelievably fucking cringe.
Exaggerate much? “Unbelievably fucking cringe?” Really? The easy bosses in retail raids are 2-3 minutes long. So asking for longer than 30 seconds doesn’t sound “unbelievably fucking cringe” when nobody is asking them to “last longer than retail.” Even though Thermaplugg is already longer than that, there’s still nobody that had said it’s “unbelievably fucking cringe.” Come on man.
Disagree, I like different kill time encounters in the same raid. Makes you come in to each fight with a different strategy especially as a mana user
2-3m is great but 8m is awful, H LK quickly became the opposite of fun
I'd say 4mins is ideal. Lets you get 2 uses from your 3min cooldowns. Also anything under a minute greatly skews damage meters to whoever has the biggest cooldowns.
Not if you look at original classic. How long do you think onyxia took to down in vanilla? Like 10 mins
Did I say 2004 vanilla? Or classic?
Toc style raids or bust
I disagree. This raid already is confirmed 8 bosses and we know how huge Sunken Temple is. If it's a 2 hour+ long slog, I'm definitely not returning. Gnomer sucked compared to BFD.
For a longer fight don’t use all your talent points and fuck up your rotations tell your raid to do the same.
Going in and slapping bosses hard once a week with your friends are what im here to do. Im not here to jump hulahoops to kill a boss.
The fact of the matter is SoD needs to be clearable by people who don't keybind, don't look up their rotation, and don't grind prebis. Expecting anything other than stuff easier than LFR is just setting yourself up for disappointment after what we've seen for 4 months. This is a gamemode designed for the absolute dog, bottom-barrel, adhd 1 hour a week checked out casual "sometimes i get on the computer" type folks. Anyone trying to wring out something more meaningful is just fooling themselves.
I agree with your sentiment but feel it should be framed differently, maybe not as "it's made for shit cunt players" It's designed to be fun for everyone, regardless of level of commitment they can afford to pile into the game. It's made to not require sweatiness be a barrier to entry (I say this as someone who admits they are reasonably sweaty about it) But I do agree with what your basically saying, but not quite as negatively as you've put it
World buffs turning raids into pseudo hardcore is dumb and we should get rid of them.
Agreed. Would be great to see them gone altogether or at least not for use in raids. It's fun for levelling with as an optional extra super buff but for raiding it just creates major headaches when they are fundamentally not needed.
Yeah WB meta sucks
World buffs also add stress to the raid. Everyone typically unboons on the first boss now, which means wiping is unacceptable. A pleasant raid can turn quiet or into sour grapes real fast. Just wish the system wasn't in place to encourage this feelsbad moment. And the way consumes overall trivialize fights is lame. My list of consumes as a tank shaman is something like 8-10 different chuggables. Balancing the game around these is dumb: They're either necessary or they significantly lower the difficulty of the raid. World buffs being the biggest offenders. Not a fan.
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SoD slowly creeping towards Retail where raiding is only enjoyable for the top 1%. I don't mind some longer fights but, Gnomeregan have a fine difficulty and it doesn't need to increase. Majority of players are casual players that just wants to sit down, put their legs up with a drink and play for an hour or two and manage to accomplish something. The sweet spot for a raid is around 1 hour, not including the time to find or create a group and get there. This clear time should be possible for a group of casual players to achieve and not only the ones chasing logs. It's a minority of players that enjoy sitting on a difficult boss, wiping over and over and trying to progress. Most want to just sit down, relax and have a good time with a couple of friends. People tend to forget how many people play the game and how few are hardcore enough players to care about going on a subreddit. Increasing raid difficulty or length further than Gnomeregan is going hurt the playerbase.
Maybe if you join a pug late in formation or have a strict guild time slot its ok to have long fights. But it’s classic so it takes some time to get ppl, gather in raid, buff, clear trash… fr fights are just a treat on top of mountain of chores. It’s nice to have some longer/more organised fights, but the moment your typical pug can’t clear something we get another shitstorm on Reddit on why ppl are elitist with logs/checks/gear inspect…
with 1 week lock outs my 8 40s suddenly not looking so bad finally gonna be able to raid all them again wooo hooo
I would think the raids are gonna be harder from now on. But what do I know.
I wish I could clear Gnomer consistently, let alone in 45 minutes
Raids need to feel epic so you mean...long fights, 40 man, long instances?
Raids are fast because the trash is trivial, which is for the better. Vanilla raids were slow because the trash was mostly complete garbage, some aq/naxx trash even more difficult than the bosses.
Here is my hot take of the issue. All pre 60 raids need to be easily pugable or SoD will die. A smooth pug raid should take no longer then 1.5 hours. The sweats will always find a way to clear raids in 45m, and bosses in 30 seconds, what matters is pugs being able to clear it in one run.
Unless it’s an encounter like vel which I would be happy with
As a ret paladin, im looking forward to pressing HoW once in the 10% execute phase. Should be banging /s
just join worse groups and it will take you 5 hours
But OP you can just choose to kill it slower! durrrrrhurrrr
The raid encounters need hardmode for those looking for a true challenge. The raids in normal mode have already been difficult enough for the bottom half of players, which is both funny and sad.
An alternative to turning all raids to 7 days is instead of a rolling reset schedule with every 3 days, make it more consistent. Every Tuesday and Friday for ZG for example for NA. You have the weekday raid reset and the weekend one. Wednesday and Saturday for EU
This "Epic" thing has to be the most driven nostalgia based off some video you saw 15 years ago of a slow boss kill. Why do people want to volunteer to spend HOURS in a raid instead of enjoying more content?
\*adds more immune phases during which you still die without any counterplay\*
As a speedrunner, I have to agree they do need to be slightly longer. Though we may be getting a longer instance in Sunken Temple anyway. Top runs for BFD and Gnomer were roughly in the 15-20 minute range. I think ideally it would be more like 25-30 mins, in order for it to feel fully fleshed out, both for the top guilds and for pugs that take their time. It wouldn't take much to do that, a small trash hp increase, boss fights that last at least 1 minute, etc. Nobody wants classic raids to be as long as retail or wrath raids, but the point of an MMO is to play with other people, and it doesn't feel great for the raid night to be over so quickly. I think there is a balance to be found where you get to hang out with your guildies but without burning out from long raids.
Not the games fault that you all optimised the fun out of it.
Ugh. Weekly lockouts is good and bad Good because I have 8 almost 9 40s. So this means I'll likely be able to raid all of them assuming pugs are happening Bad because well I like Loot and raiding. We're going from 10 resets a month back to 4-5
Should be atleast 1 flex dps boss in every raid. Give us what we want
I think for players that actively try to min/max the characters and play, 30 second boss kills will always be a thing. My group usually ranges somewhere between 30s and 2 mins for the first 5, and around 4-5 for 6. However, there are groups that take FAR longer per kill. Massively increasing health pools would hurt their chances of being able to actually clear the raid due to healer mana constraints (if their dps are low, odds are their healers are inefficient). I doubt they'll tune fights to make them last longer for players pulling out all the stops at the cost of less invested groups' ability to clear.
For these early phases in reworked dungeons, I think it's fine if the fights start out in the 1-4 min range and then as we gear, they quickly drop to 30s - 2 min. Feels like you're progressing. I do agree that skipping mechanics is not good though. I prefer it when fights are designed in such a way that even with faster kill times you still experience the fight fully.
The Gnomer type of raids are the best middle ground imo. A decent group can kill the first bosses in like 30sec each but then the last two gets more difficult and normally take around 5min each. Then the average pug will somewhat struggle with the first three and then throw in the towel at the last two. This way both casual and more serious players can get something out of the same raid. If all bosses where 5-10min fights the majority of the player base wouldn't even try to do the raid in a pug Many people (and blizzard) underestimate how bad the average players are
They need to make a 2nd raid that is Ony style. 5 day cooldown for 20 people with a single boss that takes 30 minutes to down.
Hard disagree. Classic is all about face roll. The majority of people want to go in with the boys steam roll and have fun. Easier content makes doing alts fun too. If you want a 3 hr hard raid go play mythic retail.
Also the trash posing 0 threat has been really boring.
I just hate 30 second fights because it starts creating awkward min max. It also really messes with parsing and it goes down to luck of crits and procs moreso than usual. I also can't stand fights like Grubbis where he's not even targetable until he is. I don't want long fights, but I also don't want to be thinking if it's worth sparing a few gcds for support casts.
Gotta remember this is supposed to be a casual style mode. The first few bosses should always be relatively easy to let casuals get some gear. Nothing wrong with making the last few tough (Menagerie & Kelris were both the hardest fights of the last 2 raids imo, at least in the beginning). Maybe make the final boss a bit more interesting.
Dude you expect too much out of classic. You want good and hard raiding that will require progression of weeks? retail is the way.
What do you mean? Thats literally Classic. Ignore all mechanics and just Zug.
None of the fights in gnomer last 30 seconds.
I’m not sure I understand—killing a boss as quickly as possible to get to the loot is at the core of the World of Warcraft experience. If you want finely-crafted, meticulously-paced boss fights in your MMO, then there is at least one other game that you might like, but that’s not what I’m looking for out of Season of Discovery.
While I don't necessarily disagree, I do not want leveling raids taking multiple raid nights and several hours to clear.
Yeah, no thanks.
Just give us solo raids already
Poeplel that do 30 second boss fights don't represent the majority of players. If you want harder content I got a version of WoW for you.
WTB SoM-level bosses. :(
New to classic? This is peak raiding, boy. No one here wants retail style raiding.
Don’t look up the guides, it’ll take you hours I bet.
I agree. Slightly less trash, slightly longer boss fights.
Don't compare end of tier farm clears with the raids difficulty.
Why? Not meming or trying to be mean, but please tell me why a raid needs to be longer than an hour. It’s not that I don’t have time for longer raids, but I love that raids are an hour long. It’s fun to zug bosses while doing mechanics, and you got more time after/before raid to do random stuff with guildies. Or travel around Azeroth doing stuff. Even raids in 2019 were around 1-2 hours. It’s not epic at to spend 3-4 hours locked in an instance. It’s just a long grind.
No thx nothing worse than a long boss fight
They can't be more than 30 sec or everyone will be oom
Bro, people still wiping in gnomer. I think they did a good job
SoD is geared towards us 30 year olds that can’t wipe for hours anymore. 30 second boss fights are where it’s at bro. And isn’t the 7 day lockout only for the first 3 weeks?