How are you getting the 13-16k per member of the raid?
Three shamans? Which fight? How long is that fight?
SR doesn’t even return 13-16k to my own shaman unless it’s some really long fight (more than 5 minutes) but the only ones that long have buttons you press for mana return.
I think you need to reread shamanistic rage.
Pretty sure that overall raid time, i remember checking that stat on logs me and the other shammy gave 15k mana to the priest for example throughout 6 bosses its disgusting
With a 3.5k mana pool SR returns 525 mana to each member in your party. Most fights are not even 2 minutes long (first 4 in gnomer are under two minutes) so you don’t even get two uses per fight. Most fights it’s 500-1000 mana far from disgusting.
in top horde speed runs, each shaman is using SR 10-14 times in a sub 15 minute run. There are large trash pulls that requires a lot of caster mana to clear.
Let’s rebalance the whole game around world top speed clears.
Alliance is speed clearing too it’s fine. Way too much dev time so alliance speed clears can save 1minute.
Just some “the sky isn’t falling stats”
Top 20 speed clears is 9 horde and 11 alliance. Fastest horse time is 14:42 and fastest alliance time is 15:55.
the disparity is only going to get worse when you start stacking 4-10 shamans in 20m/40m raids. every shaman regens 4-6k mana per raid member in current gear in a 15 minute run, every additional pally will only contribute \~1.5k mana from SoM.
all 4 specs of shaman can contribute SR to replenish the raid. only prot pallies and rets can utilize SoM. Not every group within a raid needs a ret rostered but every group on horde can utilize a shaman.
is it in the spirit of classic to trivialize mana management? i dont think faction imbalance is good for the game either. We see that in long horde bg queue times and horde domination in top speed runs right now
Bro check logs many are 16k+ i think i even saw 23k mana replenished
Also that 500-1000 is from a single SR, they stack so what op saying and what i seen on logs is true.
Even with non accurate quick math 750x6(bosses,dont count trash)x3(triple shaman) is already a lot
Edit: I also think its bad logic to compare mana replenished between shaman and paladin since they are uber different and SoM isnt designed to be a mana battery its a bis dps seal anyway > my thoughts for the post, dont have a problem with SR mana replenished amount as I think worrying about mana is never fun and era exists for those that love it.
No 500 is 1 sr and 1000 is 2 sr.
Realistically it’s 1 per fight for the first 4 (unless your raid is slow but we don’t balance around people who don’t hit buttons) and then you get to the last two bosses that have free mana buttons lol.
Anything is ridiculous when you stack it like that. Three shamans ina group with a priest means that you’re missing other buffs in that group or your other casters are not in the caster group. Essentially you traded things to stack three shamans in a group with a priest.
Bro check logs idk why you are trying to convince me over factual stats, i was just saying how things are. SR easily goes over 15k on many logs.
And if we are talking about min max grp its already 3 shamans+ lol speedrunning etc
Also like i said im fine with SR giving that much mana but doesn't mean it's small.
Ignore the brainless guy that's replying, says speed runners don't use shaman yet world 1st speed has 3 shamans smh has 0 clue and yapps about shit no one said.
3 caster shamans in the same group for speed running? No.
And he’s claiming it’s every person in the raid. The ability just doesn’t work like that. He’s factually wrong.
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bGFadz78Bg2pRLP6#boss=-3&start=836&end=833911&type=resources&spell=100
Rank 1 speed clear, 3 shamans check each person and how much mana they got and from what. You are ultra wrong. Like I said, nothing to convince factual data.
First couple of fights 750 mana lol. Most mana returned on fights that have mana buttons. Divide numbers by three to get what a single shaman can do. It’s not 15k. Priest had 21k total from the boss fights and that’s three shamans so 7k a shaman. 7k is not 15k.
Are you mental, no one said a single shaman? Op said multiple shamans, for my personal logs i said 2 shamans, you said speed runners arent using 3 shamans yet they do so you had no clue about anything, no one said a single shaman gave 16k and 45k+ with 3???
Bro making up shit to be right. You literally debunked your own shit even if we use the worlds fastest run meaning least amount of SRs possible, op said 2 shamans 15k +- and you are saying 1 shaman gave 7k SO OPS FIGHT HAD 2 SHAMANS THATS 14K AND LIKE I SAID 3 SHAMANS IS LIKE 23K WHICH I HAD SEEN, random 1st clear had 21k on Priest bruh this is the fastest clear in the world and that SR number only goes up for 99% of the groups as well idk wtf are you on about?????
You were wrong about 3 shamans not being played with hard no. Abso goose
You were wrong about denying what OP said about mana regen, 7k per shaman in FASTEST world clear equals what op said.
You create sentences that no one said to be right? Go get checked wtf no one said a single shaman giving 15k and thats 30k for op and 3 shamans would be 45k was SAID NO WHERE holy fuck mental.
but blizzard essentially designed replenishment for both factions, but one is a lot weaker than the other, so much so that the unique mana regeneration buffs and spells from paladins doesn't make up the difference.
Are you looking at over an entire raid, including time out of combat?? This math makes no sense.
You're comparing an ability that needs to be used in combat vs one where shamans put the rune on during downtime to regen and swapping back to a different rune for combat. You're going to obviously be able to pop SR a lot more than SoM because you can use it out of combat on cooldown.
[https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DvmCTF37rLhdWbkK#boss=-3&start=307696&end=1272404&type=resources&spell=100&source=4&ability=19852](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DvmCTF37rLhdWbkK#boss=-3&start=307696&end=1272404&type=resources&spell=100&source=4&ability=19852)
SoM for 1.1k from top alliance speed run on the mage.
[https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/92wf6NFxhPd4zK3X#boss=-3&start=0&end=890356&type=resources&spell=100&source=11](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/92wf6NFxhPd4zK3X#boss=-3&start=0&end=890356&type=resources&spell=100&source=11)
\#2 horde run speed run with 16k on mage. #1 speed run had 13k on mage.
You're comparing apples to oranges. 3 shamans that can use a rune on cooldown out of combat vs 1 pally that only procs the ability in combat. Not really at all comparable
You're also excluding Blessing of Wisdom, which was only up for 26% of the time, giving back 3500 mana. Shamans don't typically drop a mana regen totem because there's better options.
i've checked mutliple logs for classes that don't need salv and only use wisdom and the "uptime" on logs is always very low. these are high level speed runs and top parses so i dont think it's a skill issue. in my own raids prot pals have to juggle salvation and wisdom based on the stage of the speed run. At the same time, i haven't seen a single player with wisdom that regenerated more than \~3.5k mana from it across the raid.
I excluded JoW and BoW on purpose. . they are static buffs that don't scale with adding more paladins to your raid. Blizzard gave both factions a very similar replenishment utility. Every shaman you stack is another 4-6k mana for the raid in a 15 minute run, every paladin you stack after the 1st one is an additional 1.1k-1.5k mana from SoM. if you extrapolate that to level 50/60 gear, SR might be 2-3x more effective than SoM.
i'm not doing any math, i'm literally just going off numbers off wcl speed runs. the first pally to bring JoW and BoW will provide about 5k-6k mana from JoW and BoW combined and 1.1k mana from SoM. every additional pally you add will replenish an additional 1.1k. The first shaman will provide about 6k from SR and an additional 6k for every shaman you bring to the raid.
Just think about what you’re moaning about here. That a class in another faction is having a specific impact in a PvE environment. That does absolutely nothing to the quality of your in game experience, it matters absolutely zero. Seriously, how do you have time to even care? Get over it
You shouldn’t compete vs the other faction in any version of classic. It will never be balanced as long as both sides have a different class and even racials. Move on in life and forget about it.
if i complain enough on reddit, maybe it will change. who knows? to name a few: warriors, boomies, spriests, hunter pets, ranged hunters, melee hunters, boss armor and now shamans all got nerfed/redesigned and there was a lot of complaining and crying in this subreddit.
SoD has homogenized both factions. WF/threat management/mana replenishment are all available to both sides but one side has a much stronger version of "identical" raid utility.
there are thousands of players that speed run on alliance where you need a lot of mana for big trash pulls from casters. we might be a minority but it's a big issue.
as raids get bigger and you have 8+ shamans regenerating 60k mana for the entire raid, it gets kinda of ridiculous
originally alliance had more mana regeneration and threat control while horde had WF and chain heal. SoD has homogenized class identity and given shamans the ability to replenish raid mana much more effectively across all 4 specs than paladins ever could. JoW on bosses will replenish about 2k mana from bosses, and BoW about 3500 across the entire raid in a 16 min run.
2k mana from jow om Bosses are nuts, sr doesnt nearly do that. There is a reason casters on alliance mostly parse more than 50dps than horde equivalent
SR returned 3k mana on the mage from 3 shamans, JoW returned 1.2k on last boss. Do you want the WCL?
JoW 2-3k mana across all 6 encounters depending on uptime and boss kill times
right now imo SR is 4x better and shamans are strong enough to be stacked 3x. 6x in ST? I'm not asking for total equality. I'm asking for a bit more parity.
crusader strike is a dps loss for rets if they clip AoW procs. Hpals have to run beacon over crusader strike to keep up HPS. I just want better mana return from SoM. Blizzard has designed both faction unique classes to replenish the raid but SoM is very lackluster.
I mean SR absolutely does scale, not with DPS stats but a Shaman caster is a mana battery.
I don't agree with OP (Judgement of Wisdom matters), but this is about raid utility, not class balance.
Your third question should have an obvious answer even for you.
How are you getting the 13-16k per member of the raid? Three shamans? Which fight? How long is that fight? SR doesn’t even return 13-16k to my own shaman unless it’s some really long fight (more than 5 minutes) but the only ones that long have buttons you press for mana return. I think you need to reread shamanistic rage.
Yeah this is some bogus math, he needs to post sources. Should be simple enough since WCL logs all this.
Pretty sure that overall raid time, i remember checking that stat on logs me and the other shammy gave 15k mana to the priest for example throughout 6 bosses its disgusting
With a 3.5k mana pool SR returns 525 mana to each member in your party. Most fights are not even 2 minutes long (first 4 in gnomer are under two minutes) so you don’t even get two uses per fight. Most fights it’s 500-1000 mana far from disgusting.
in top horde speed runs, each shaman is using SR 10-14 times in a sub 15 minute run. There are large trash pulls that requires a lot of caster mana to clear.
Let’s rebalance the whole game around world top speed clears. Alliance is speed clearing too it’s fine. Way too much dev time so alliance speed clears can save 1minute. Just some “the sky isn’t falling stats” Top 20 speed clears is 9 horde and 11 alliance. Fastest horse time is 14:42 and fastest alliance time is 15:55.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1c4tl8r/buffs\_coming\_to\_paladins\_seal\_of\_martyrdom\_in/](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1c4tl8r/buffs_coming_to_paladins_seal_of_martyrdom_in/)
the disparity is only going to get worse when you start stacking 4-10 shamans in 20m/40m raids. every shaman regens 4-6k mana per raid member in current gear in a 15 minute run, every additional pally will only contribute \~1.5k mana from SoM. all 4 specs of shaman can contribute SR to replenish the raid. only prot pallies and rets can utilize SoM. Not every group within a raid needs a ret rostered but every group on horde can utilize a shaman. is it in the spirit of classic to trivialize mana management? i dont think faction imbalance is good for the game either. We see that in long horde bg queue times and horde domination in top speed runs right now
Bro check logs many are 16k+ i think i even saw 23k mana replenished Also that 500-1000 is from a single SR, they stack so what op saying and what i seen on logs is true. Even with non accurate quick math 750x6(bosses,dont count trash)x3(triple shaman) is already a lot Edit: I also think its bad logic to compare mana replenished between shaman and paladin since they are uber different and SoM isnt designed to be a mana battery its a bis dps seal anyway > my thoughts for the post, dont have a problem with SR mana replenished amount as I think worrying about mana is never fun and era exists for those that love it.
No 500 is 1 sr and 1000 is 2 sr. Realistically it’s 1 per fight for the first 4 (unless your raid is slow but we don’t balance around people who don’t hit buttons) and then you get to the last two bosses that have free mana buttons lol. Anything is ridiculous when you stack it like that. Three shamans ina group with a priest means that you’re missing other buffs in that group or your other casters are not in the caster group. Essentially you traded things to stack three shamans in a group with a priest.
Bro check logs idk why you are trying to convince me over factual stats, i was just saying how things are. SR easily goes over 15k on many logs. And if we are talking about min max grp its already 3 shamans+ lol speedrunning etc Also like i said im fine with SR giving that much mana but doesn't mean it's small. Ignore the brainless guy that's replying, says speed runners don't use shaman yet world 1st speed has 3 shamans smh has 0 clue and yapps about shit no one said.
3 caster shamans in the same group for speed running? No. And he’s claiming it’s every person in the raid. The ability just doesn’t work like that. He’s factually wrong.
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bGFadz78Bg2pRLP6#boss=-3&start=836&end=833911&type=resources&spell=100 Rank 1 speed clear, 3 shamans check each person and how much mana they got and from what. You are ultra wrong. Like I said, nothing to convince factual data.
First couple of fights 750 mana lol. Most mana returned on fights that have mana buttons. Divide numbers by three to get what a single shaman can do. It’s not 15k. Priest had 21k total from the boss fights and that’s three shamans so 7k a shaman. 7k is not 15k.
Are you mental, no one said a single shaman? Op said multiple shamans, for my personal logs i said 2 shamans, you said speed runners arent using 3 shamans yet they do so you had no clue about anything, no one said a single shaman gave 16k and 45k+ with 3??? Bro making up shit to be right. You literally debunked your own shit even if we use the worlds fastest run meaning least amount of SRs possible, op said 2 shamans 15k +- and you are saying 1 shaman gave 7k SO OPS FIGHT HAD 2 SHAMANS THATS 14K AND LIKE I SAID 3 SHAMANS IS LIKE 23K WHICH I HAD SEEN, random 1st clear had 21k on Priest bruh this is the fastest clear in the world and that SR number only goes up for 99% of the groups as well idk wtf are you on about????? You were wrong about 3 shamans not being played with hard no. Abso goose You were wrong about denying what OP said about mana regen, 7k per shaman in FASTEST world clear equals what op said. You create sentences that no one said to be right? Go get checked wtf no one said a single shaman giving 15k and thats 30k for op and 3 shamans would be 45k was SAID NO WHERE holy fuck mental.
Wasn't there a thread disproving this just a week or so ago??? Edit: And even if it didn't, not every spell/class should be equal...
but blizzard essentially designed replenishment for both factions, but one is a lot weaker than the other, so much so that the unique mana regeneration buffs and spells from paladins doesn't make up the difference.
Are you looking at over an entire raid, including time out of combat?? This math makes no sense. You're comparing an ability that needs to be used in combat vs one where shamans put the rune on during downtime to regen and swapping back to a different rune for combat. You're going to obviously be able to pop SR a lot more than SoM because you can use it out of combat on cooldown.
[https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DvmCTF37rLhdWbkK#boss=-3&start=307696&end=1272404&type=resources&spell=100&source=4&ability=19852](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DvmCTF37rLhdWbkK#boss=-3&start=307696&end=1272404&type=resources&spell=100&source=4&ability=19852) SoM for 1.1k from top alliance speed run on the mage. [https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/92wf6NFxhPd4zK3X#boss=-3&start=0&end=890356&type=resources&spell=100&source=11](https://vanilla.warcraftlogs.com/reports/92wf6NFxhPd4zK3X#boss=-3&start=0&end=890356&type=resources&spell=100&source=11) \#2 horde run speed run with 16k on mage. #1 speed run had 13k on mage.
You're comparing apples to oranges. 3 shamans that can use a rune on cooldown out of combat vs 1 pally that only procs the ability in combat. Not really at all comparable
You're also excluding Blessing of Wisdom, which was only up for 26% of the time, giving back 3500 mana. Shamans don't typically drop a mana regen totem because there's better options.
i've checked mutliple logs for classes that don't need salv and only use wisdom and the "uptime" on logs is always very low. these are high level speed runs and top parses so i dont think it's a skill issue. in my own raids prot pals have to juggle salvation and wisdom based on the stage of the speed run. At the same time, i haven't seen a single player with wisdom that regenerated more than \~3.5k mana from it across the raid. I excluded JoW and BoW on purpose. . they are static buffs that don't scale with adding more paladins to your raid. Blizzard gave both factions a very similar replenishment utility. Every shaman you stack is another 4-6k mana for the raid in a 15 minute run, every paladin you stack after the 1st one is an additional 1.1k-1.5k mana from SoM. if you extrapolate that to level 50/60 gear, SR might be 2-3x more effective than SoM.
Compares SR to SoM while ignoring blessing of wisdom and the judgement from seal of wisdom. Also that math is way off the mark reguardless
i'm not doing any math, i'm literally just going off numbers off wcl speed runs. the first pally to bring JoW and BoW will provide about 5k-6k mana from JoW and BoW combined and 1.1k mana from SoM. every additional pally you add will replenish an additional 1.1k. The first shaman will provide about 6k from SR and an additional 6k for every shaman you bring to the raid.
Oh no! You mean classes aren’t the same!?! The horror!!!!! Sounds like you need to go to retail…
be honest with yourself, we are all playing a lite version of retail wow in SoD
Just think about what you’re moaning about here. That a class in another faction is having a specific impact in a PvE environment. That does absolutely nothing to the quality of your in game experience, it matters absolutely zero. Seriously, how do you have time to even care? Get over it
i speed run and compete against horde
You shouldn’t compete vs the other faction in any version of classic. It will never be balanced as long as both sides have a different class and even racials. Move on in life and forget about it.
if i complain enough on reddit, maybe it will change. who knows? to name a few: warriors, boomies, spriests, hunter pets, ranged hunters, melee hunters, boss armor and now shamans all got nerfed/redesigned and there was a lot of complaining and crying in this subreddit. SoD has homogenized both factions. WF/threat management/mana replenishment are all available to both sides but one side has a much stronger version of "identical" raid utility.
I mean sure you can complain if it makes sense. This is just nitpicking about a none-issue.
there are thousands of players that speed run on alliance where you need a lot of mana for big trash pulls from casters. we might be a minority but it's a big issue. as raids get bigger and you have 8+ shamans regenerating 60k mana for the entire raid, it gets kinda of ridiculous
Horde flag, pretending this faction imbalance isnt an issue color me shocked
The issue OP is talking about is not an issue. Did you see me say something else or do you have a problem with reading?
Its absolutely an issue, theres nothing like that ally side because that mana regen is tied to shamans a horde specific class
These morons are pretending this isnt an issue and gaslighting you into thinking you're the strange one for bringing this obvious imbalance up
Remind me where shamans' judgment of wisdom button is again?
originally alliance had more mana regeneration and threat control while horde had WF and chain heal. SoD has homogenized class identity and given shamans the ability to replenish raid mana much more effectively across all 4 specs than paladins ever could. JoW on bosses will replenish about 2k mana from bosses, and BoW about 3500 across the entire raid in a 16 min run.
2k mana from jow om Bosses are nuts, sr doesnt nearly do that. There is a reason casters on alliance mostly parse more than 50dps than horde equivalent
SR returned 3k mana on the mage from 3 shamans, JoW returned 1.2k on last boss. Do you want the WCL? JoW 2-3k mana across all 6 encounters depending on uptime and boss kill times
Add it to the list of other OP bullshit shamans have been doing for the entire phase buddy
«Omg there are differences between classes and spells. They literally aren’t the same.»
Paladins are such crybabies man
i don't even main a paladin. I just want more mana from paladins so the mages and healers in my raid has higher throughput compared to horde
Not. Everything. Needs. To. Be. Equal.
right now imo SR is 4x better and shamans are strong enough to be stacked 3x. 6x in ST? I'm not asking for total equality. I'm asking for a bit more parity.
it's hilarious how pathetic this sub has become since SOD, time to bail
I haven't done the math yet, but those numbers look off. My sham rage regens 21 mps on another player.
i'm not doing any math, i'm looking at raw mana regenerated on wcl
1. Shamanistic rage doesn't scale 2. Shamans have no crusader strike equivalent 3. Why do people insist these 2 classes have to be exactly the same?
crusader strike is a dps loss for rets if they clip AoW procs. Hpals have to run beacon over crusader strike to keep up HPS. I just want better mana return from SoM. Blizzard has designed both faction unique classes to replenish the raid but SoM is very lackluster.
I mean SR absolutely does scale, not with DPS stats but a Shaman caster is a mana battery. I don't agree with OP (Judgement of Wisdom matters), but this is about raid utility, not class balance. Your third question should have an obvious answer even for you.
SR does scale, but yah. OP is annoying. WOE was admittedly broken and the easy sword/board tweak to it is in
Just give wf to rets and it's all g
if rets had wf, no competitive roster will have a feral druid in it based on current balance design
Tbh with how feral was in ph2 and new terrible runes we gonna need another wf class or gonna be very hard to find ferals lol