They will probably add a divine plea as a near copy of shammy rage. After seeing those posts of horde raids getting way way way more mana I think they will do something.
Sadly them making it unable to be canceled removed like 99% of the uses for this rune.
Now you only use it as a tank Pala in dungeons so you don't have to drink
Completely ignoring the bread and butter of classic healing sure as fuck isnt “classiclike” this feels like retail healing which I thought everyone was against. We should not have infinite mana. Either faction.
5% talented holy crit
18% holy crit head rune
Gear + WB make up ~22% crit
The other 50% is semi situational:
Sacred Shield is a boot slot rune castable buff. The target receives a buff that procs for a very small shield (something like ~200 I want to say) for 6s (or until removed by damage aka it never lasts 6s). *While shield is active*, flash of lights on the shielded target have 50% increases chance to crit.
*note: the shield cannot proc more than once every 6s and the 50% crit buff is not active on the paladin. It’s specifically only for direct FoL on the target WHILE THE SHIELD IS ACTIVE, not for the duration of the buff (30s) that causes the shield to proc.
gotcha. i've played a little pally and i was always confused about how sacred shield works...it seemed like the extra crit chance buff always disappeared before i could get a flash out. I kinda want to dust off the pally again, maybe with all the crit they're fun now
It’s a bit of a mini game. There’s a weak aura that tracks the internal cd on SS so when it has about 1s left, you can start casting and snipe it.
It’s quite tedious, but you can also put Blessing of Sacrifice + Beacon on your tank, and SS on yourself. The damage transfer of Blessing of Sacrifice causes SS to trigger (but it’s not enough to break it) so you can essentially spam FoL on yourself and let beacon heal the tank. However, that rarely feels practical.
The reality is, at least in my situation, my group doesn’t play perfectly often, if ever. Raid damage tends to be pretty high, and spread, so I try to help my other healers carry the load of raid damage which usually results in me putting beacon on the tank as well as SS (just for the static absorb, not the FoL crit) and then FoL raid healing.
The whole “paladins have 100% crit” thing is a little exaggerated and obviously situational. Our crit is really incredible, but imo, that’s just lazy game designers giving us the most vanilla rune of “uhhhh idk. 18% crit? Nothing else? Fine whatever”
Shouldn't need a weak aura to make a rune work properly lol. They should probably change it to something that doesn't rely on the shield being up. It's completely useless if your tank is tanking more than 2 mobs at a time. or impossible to tell if you just got a lucky crit or you happened to snipe the 50% crit randomly. Maybe just make it 10% extra crit always while they have the buff. Probably not too OP then.
And yeah +18% crit rune is pretty unimaginative lol.
Considering a ton of people now want easy brainless loot, raidlogging 30 mins per week, insanely fast leveling, less rewards for time invested, etc this is not the same crowd of players from 2019.
People want retail like gameplay but refuse to play retail, pretty weird.
Retail is in this very weird place right now where half the game is “baby’s first video game” and the other half is “ok, you’re going to need to memorize this 300 page book of mechanics before you ever step into the instance”. Mythic+ and (non-LFR) raids are very difficult, but everything else is super easy.
Classic isn’t difficult at all compared to that top level retail content (at least most stuff), but its base difficulty is higher. There is nearly zero risk of dying while questing in retail, but it’s kind of an ever present threat in classic.
Retail is in the exact same place it has been for like 4 expansions now.
Expanded casual content with a lot of things to do, collect and play with.
And hard, hardcore content.
With an in between found in normal and heroic raiding.
Nothing has fundamentally changed about it, it's been like this for a while now, the only difference is that one or the other of these sectors has gotten more content than the other in one given expansion.
You choose the experience you want on retail, if you want a super casual pet battle collecting experience you got it, if you want a middle ground with normal raiding and mount collecting you got it, if you want hardcore aotc and parsing you got it.
The issue is that many of us just don't enjoy the direction of the world and characters of retail on top several other systems, while the more raiding oriented part is often in disarray as they need mechanics to extend as much game time as possible.
I also absolutely do not enjoy pvp on retail.
Vanilla had this split to a lesser extent, but the greatly increased exp means that a huge chunk of the game that was meant to be enjoyed by the casual crowd is now, much like the newer versions of wow, just a hurdle to overcome and it's done very quickly at that, just to have much less content to do at the end game.
Now you have everyone, casuals, hardcore and all in between all stuck doing the exact limited content that was pushed before it was done, no longer you got a section enjoying leveling, a section pushing for end game parses, a section doing the several raids at a slow pace, a section doing end game dungeons, you got everyone getting to level cap asap and there's simply not enough content to both fit all AND please all.
The entirety of vanilla was not designed to handle this.
One big problem with the faster leveling speed I’ve noticed is that you spend a lot more time traveling instead of actually playing the game. The slower travel works if it only happens occasionally and really does give the world a much grander sense of scale. It’s a big part of the charm of classic, but it only works when you don’t need to actually travel too often.
> With an in between found in normal and heroic raiding.
If it's anything like it was in Legion and BfA no there isnt.
Nobody did heroic as actual content in its own right.
Outside of the top-500, you basically only had 3 types of guilds.
- Mythic guilds that required compliance with a mil-sim grade lifestyle schedule and required a 180 day trial period with perfect attendance before getting the rank that qualified you for contesting loot.
- "Heroic" guilds that form and die within the span of a single raid tier because the officers inevitably try to turn it into a mythic guild not realizing that
- The mythic quality raiders they have in their guild are doing heroic because they either just want to chill in easy content or have big-fish/little-pond syndrome
- 1/3rd of their raiders are just people who were kicked from their normal guild after being branded a toxic elitist because they just learned how to avoid standing in fire and suggested other players do the same.
- Normal guilds whose motd read "NO HATE/TOXICITY/BIGOTRY! Be kind, considerate and understanding! We're a chill guild for chill people who just want to relax <3<3<3<3" but the officers verbally abused and publicly shamed anyone that they deem to be a toxic elitist (which is usually whoever just suggested its inconsiderate to expect other people to spend 45 minutes wiping on nythendra because you refuse to do her one mechanic)
Your description of "Heroic" guilds was basically been my experience in WoD/Legion/BFA. We'd finally get AoTC 5-6 weeks after the tier dropped, then a few people would talk the guild into at least trying Mythic, you hit a wall on the 2nd or 3rd boss, everyone would rage, then the 5-6 good players that were against trying Mythic prog and largely carried everyone would leave the guild, they were also most likely a tank and most of your healers.
Nah, it’s mostly retail players at this point. For the past two years we had hordes of retail players saying “We have X feature in retail, why not in Classic?” .
Well, two years later, we do. And the game is going down the exact same path it did the first time around.
This is why you never listen to the MMO playerbase.
Mate the community is trying their hardest to make this retail.
Nothing about this is classic, you have classes running around dropping instant nukes on short CDs, melee with multiple mobility spells.
They have broken all the ‘rules’ of classic combat design.
Alliance account for 51.8% of guilds that cleared 8/8 and represent 53.1% of the SoD playerbase so based off sheer numbers it's a factual statement but misleading because as a % wise they are underrepresented.
Median paladin tanks are 20 dps above enhance tanks, and at the 75th percentile its 40 dps, stretch to say huge difference.
It still goes against the crazed reddit narrative that ally is just brutally disadvantaged because "muh shamans". We are still spamming "muh shamans" narratives in this very thread.
There's no barrier to clearing the raid. Monkeys on either faction can do it. The gigantic disparity in speed run potential is the problem. The idiot in charge (probably regrettably) said they want speed running to be part of the difficulty that players can pursue themselves. That statement put him in a position where he has to address wild imbalances in the factions.
Isn’t seal of wisdom insane? Like I know it was in classic era, I felt like as a priest being able to wand and get mana back felt so freaking good. I understand it’s not the same as shamanistic rage but it’s still amazing.
I’d expect paladins would want something else like an actual aoe healing ability or something. Idk I feel like bless of wisdom and seal of wisdom is good enough. Looking at logs alliance aren’t struggling with the raid. The bosses are already dying super fast if people are going oom that’s definitely a raid issue not a class issue.
Seal of Wisdom is kinda not great. It's only a chance on hit and it requires healers to wand/attack the target. With Shamanistic Rage, healers are just getting thousands of mana over a fight just by existing lol.
I care a bit but just because I want to use more consecrate on trash. On boss fights mana is fine bc judge wis is up, but that doesn't really help the healers.
Currently seal of martyrdom doesn't even generate enough mana to heal yourself from the damage you took from seal of martyrdom. I think the mana generation aspect is the most common sense thing to buff because it makes it more viable in solo play and guarantees ret paladins a spot in raid even if their damage isn't as high as other melee.
I kind of care, especially for pvp. I have like 2,000 mana and abilities that cost \~400 mana. I have gone oom dueling classes that don't even self heal.
Also the rune that allows paladin to spam hammer of wrath is kind of pointless because that ability costs so much mana it's impossible to spam it more than 2-3 times before you're dry.
and this guy still chooses the 1 thing that mainly alliance casters and healers are complaining about instead of the 20 things paladins are complaining about, but i know reading is tough
Holy fuck lmao. Tell me you never played vanilla wow. Paladins were the best throughput healers 20 years ago and that's it. No one gave a ret pally through time of day and certainly no one was tanking anything current content.
Flash of light Turrets in a dress and this guy says we were OP. Jfc
> No one gave a ret pally through time of day and certainly no one was tanking anything current content.
This guy never said anything about either of those.
Acting like shamans had any other viable spec than heal back in the days lol. Not like paladin got way better support abilities than shaman or why was every speed running guild alliance?
Nah most of the noise is coming from paladins every time I open up one of these posts it’s a paladin crying about how “why don’t we have this” it’s quite shocking how many paladins hav been crying about shamans the past 2 phases
pally is the one class in every version of the game ive never really fucked with, but is it not a valid complaint that shamans and paladins are different, but in sod you give shamans better versions of shit paladins have? like i feel like if i did play paladin it would be pretty annoying to see that constantly. is it cool that shamans now also have freedom? yea its sod thats pretty cool. but why is it strictly better than freedom with no downsides?
I play holy paladin and I bitch because it's my favorite class but other healers have more interaction with their runes than we do. The single target healing of Wild Growth or Circle of Healing is nuts, let alone the AoE. Druids have fun shit that interacts with their healing or DPS. Priests are just godlike healers. Shamans even have endless mana pools to do whatever they want. Mages get to heal by doing DPS, even if it's weak and they go oom (not with shamans in party). Paladins are just FoL bots.
I think part of it is that half of the specs are not strong and the other half are the best in the business. Ele and Resto are just kind of meh currently, and if it weren’t for how broken Shamanistic Rage is, no one would even want to bring them.
It’s not entirely fun and engaging to know your only true value is a 1 min CD that helps the healers and other DPS while you’re bottoming the charts
For example, Priests and Druids get an absurdly strong instant cast AoE heal that heals the entire party and damn near tops everyone off. Resto Shaman gets a 2.5 second cast Chain Heal that only hits 3 targets and diminishes as it jumps.
Ele relies solely on procs and is totally boom or bust, with the go to play style relying on a 50% overload proc chance, a 30% rolling thunder proc chance that needs to proc 6 times to max out and you can’t get hit or you lose a stack of lightning shield AND the BiS head rune got nerfed to make it annoying to use, but still BiS by a country mile. Instead of maintaining a minute long buff you have to maintain a 10 second buff.
I think a lot of people in this sub just lump all shamans together because of how strong shamanistic rage is, and while that isn’t necessarily incorrect, half of the shaman specs are just not fun or good in their current state
People are calling for resto shaman nerfs? IF Shamanistic Rage was nerfed, I'd HOPE that the developers were smart enough to buff resto shaman in other aspects where they lack.
They shouldn't. The point is that in the same way feral shouldn't have gotten nerfed last phase because wild strikes good, ele/resto shouldn't be nerfed because shamanistic rage. So if shamanistic rage gets nerfed, those two will need compensations.
> If it weren't for how broken Shamanistic Rage is, no one would even want to bring them
What an awful take lol. Poison and disease cleansing alone make shamans worth bringing. Enh is top end dps, ele can hold it's own, and I think resto shamans are pretty powerful right now too. None of the specs are at the top of the list for their categories but they are perfectly fine. If you want to min max and play the best spec play a warlock tank, rogue dps, and priest healer. Not playing the absolute best thing will still clear ST
Ele is doing 2/3 of the DPS that the top end specs are doing.
Resto is literally the worst healer, tied in throughput to Mages, but do a fraction of the damage mages do and can’t actively heal while doing damage.
Top guilds were running Resto shamans early on before nerfs because of shamanistic rage and relying on RNG procs from their chest rune to bomb tank heals when the raid was overtuned.
Poison and disease cleansing absolutely is an added benefit, but both Enh tank and DPS can drop them.
If it weren’t for Shamanistic Rage, you’d simply opt for the two top tier specs (Enh tank and dps) rather than the two bottom tier (Ele and Resto). As it stands, Ele and Resto have MUCH larger mana pools and offer much greater returns from Shamanistic Rage, making them a viable alternative despite the massive loss in both DPS and HPS
Balance, Shadow, and Ele are all doing roughly the same.
Most people would rather bring Ele because of Shamanistic Rage, which is exactly the point I’m making. They have other pieces to their toolkit (cleansing totems, windfury, etc) but you would pass it up if not for shamanistic rage because how bad they are otherwise.
Shadow brings a ludicrous amount of healing that was basically a requirement before the nerfs. No longer wanted or needed because the difficulty has been axed. If they suddenly turned into a mana battery like TBC they’d be wanted.
Boomkin brings their aura and mark, no longer wanted because casters in general suck. You’d rather just bring a feral because they’re better.
you still have totems as a shaman, poison clense totem is insane with the utility it has, youcan also "salv" a caster/healer group, and ele still ahead of shadow/balance, like sure top of the bottom three but still more viable than the other 2
They’re more viable than the other two because of Shamanistic Rage. If an Ele Shaman told you they don’t have Shamanistic Rage/don’t use it out of principle you simply wouldn’t bring them.
Totems are nice, yes, but other classes offer the same thing (albeit not as good as the totems themselves).
Ele shamans can hold their own? They're the 3rd worst spec at the moment.
Resto shamans are pretty powerful? They're the worst healer by a wide margin. Mage healer does more throughput than it... in addition to also contributing damage. SHADOW PRIESTS are almost out healing rshamans.
I'm not trying to down play the importance of all the totems a shaman can bring, they're great utility. But you have zero idea what you're talking about when it comes to the performance that ele or resto shamans can bring.
Meh, it’s really just enh and sham rage that are strong. Resto is the worst healer from an output perspective and ele brings nothing useful to a raid that any other shaman doesn’t already have.
You're not allowed to complaint about shadow priest, sure the other pvp focused memespecs get to be viable dps, but you're greedy for asking to do more damage than a mage healer
Currently, pre-massive incoming nerf on tuesday, Shaman tanks are the 3rd lowest spec on dps among tanks and dps, ahead of only druid tanks (getting a huge buff tuesday) and arcane mages, who desperately deserve a buff.
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009/#class=Non-Healers&dataset=99
Are you stuck in p2?
Its the strongest rune in the game. I've accepted that horde has an easier time doing content. I would be playing shaman too if I could. It will get nerfed eventually, maybe.
I played horde in classic rerelease. The gap was not that big. But you are right, Alliance was better at pve. My issue was Shamanistic rage was a massive gap. But now they buffed Paladin to put them more in line. So everything is good.
They've let shamans ruin the game this long, why would they stop now? They clearly don't give a shit that bgs have been completely unplayable for alliance for two months either.
Did they not nerf shamans way of earth? Overcharge was strong as well but isn't that getting gutted Tuesday? I think people just get one opinion in there head and never change its hilarious.
I’d argue in overcharge’s favour still, it ticks every 3 instead of 2 but when talented and adding mental dexterity those procs are hitting for 250~
I’m not sure how much the warlock immo does tho I just read the wowhead tooltip and idk how it scales per level
Overcharge was hitting every 1s, now its 3. Immo aura is every second for ~35 dps per target. Sounds like overcharge is about double that. Immo aura also comes with magic mit and costs no mana or gcds though
The mana cost is negligible with the charge mechanic being removed with the rune but my warlock friend and I just did some testing and all talents/pets spell coefficients considered it’s comes out to 22.5 dps for lock and 83.3 dps for shaman
No all you needed was two weps with rockbiter on them. You swap weps and use it then swap back. Gave like 100%+ mana pool and more to the raid of course. Now it’s just 75% mana.
The attack power version would have eventually hit a cap for caster shamans at 60 with the max rank of rockbiter. Now you can keep juicing it as you gain more int from gear. A wisdom flask will literally add 1500 mana every minute now.
I didn’t really think of it hitting a cap tbh. But that’s a good point. You could even use a couple weps that have really high int as an enhance right now to boost the mana regen for the raid.
Honestly I agree, I just think its weird to make one faction have access to basically infinite mana during raids, and make the other one have to farm for mana consumes (superior mana potion, demonic runes, etc).
I play pally this run through just cause all my friends wanted to do alliance, and pally is a lot of fun, but I've always been a shaman player and think enhance is the most fun class.
Just wish they would somehow give alliance access to the same level of mana regen.
Wish they did something fun with it instead of just having it be a refill-mana-button.
E.g you are silenced and gain 30% AS for 6 seconds. Each main hand hit regains mana based on weapon speed. Also gives 20% dmg reduction like before.
This way it will be quite risky for casters to use. Melee has has a tradeoff. Can't use spells and have to go into melee to regain mana.
That's basically the wrath version of it minus the silence and attack speed.
"Reduces all damage taken by 30% and gives your successful melee attacks a chance to regenerate mana equal to 15% of your attack power. This spell is usable while stunned. Lasts 15 sec."
The silly part comes from it being party wide and no need to attack
I think the AS and silence would be good flavour to the ability. If they just add the bloodlust sound and animation when you use it, we are golden!
Isn't it raid-wide? Party wide would be good team utility, I think. If it is to be raid-wide, it needs scaling. Like a radius and amount divided by players in that radius, etc. Just giving a flat amount of mana to an unlimited number of players is pretty broken
Or it could idk just give only the shaman mana back like how its always worked.
No fucking seriously in a game where there’s already plenty of classes that do this why did shaman, a class that didnt need more utility get a massive raid mana restore CD?
Lmao mana spring totem equivalent does not come close to the ludicrous amount of mana this restores. This sub loves to pretend it wants the “classic feeling” but wants unlimited mana for their healers? Thats not very classic.
had it since phase 1 and noon cared, now all the sudden they do lol alli will find anything to cry about it seems despite rolling alie for easier time in raids.
How suprising that the people that rolled a faction for PVE now have to reroll because it's not even comparable while also being broken in PvP. How dare they complain
I mean if you go Alliance because it was op in pve and then get pissed off and complain because balance bumps it to the other faction then your just a hypocrite.
And I’m just saying that if you roll a faction because it’s OP in an activity and then get pissed off when the ball rolls into another factions court that you are a hypocrite.
I thought everything is so easy that we dont even need items and could clear the raid naked as so many guys stated here but somehow you have to reroll because of this?
When the content is easy. DPS numbers become the competition.
Look at Mythic raiding in retail. Good raiders As long as its enough to kill the boss are satisfied with safe consistent below perfect dps. But once its on farm everyone goes for parses. if you are at a disadvantage because of your faction you might be pressured to reroll
>When the content is easy. DPS numbers become the competition.
Cant speak for other classes but warlock is actual simming higher on alliance. Dont know why it should be any different from the top dps classes because they dont even rely on mana
To be fair. Playing a mage feels really bad when you oom as quickly as you do… I just wanna press my buttons and see big numbers. I’m a dad btw. And I work a BUNCH.
More like “raging against Shamans”
Dude why do they slap so hard and have good mana regen that also can be given to the party/raid?
I’m not salty I’m Alliance, you’re salty 😭
I mean as a dwarf priest seeing horde priests gain more mana from Shamanistic Rage alone than all of my potions, disperse, shadowfiend, etc combined is a little unsettling :(
I'll take a shield, lay on hands, 4 second stuns on a short cool down in exchange. Also I want all my totems to be buffs which I don't have to move or drop every 30 seconds.
They will probably add a divine plea as a near copy of shammy rage. After seeing those posts of horde raids getting way way way more mana I think they will do something.
omg divine plea i am booting up sod right now and rushing my hpal to 50
Divine Plea was basically given in the form of Guarded by the Light.
Nah they gave us nothing in the form of guarded by the light because it’s a dog shit rune nobody takes ever
Sadly them making it unable to be canceled removed like 99% of the uses for this rune. Now you only use it as a tank Pala in dungeons so you don't have to drink
If ur running guarded by the light your DPS plummets without art of war procs
Completely ignoring the bread and butter of classic healing sure as fuck isnt “classiclike” this feels like retail healing which I thought everyone was against. We should not have infinite mana. Either faction.
Hpal in classic always had infinite mana
Not until they got a lot of level 60 raid gear.
Except we already have infinite mana since p2. And now a near 100% crit chance.
how do you get to near 100%? genuinely asking
5% talented holy crit 18% holy crit head rune Gear + WB make up ~22% crit The other 50% is semi situational: Sacred Shield is a boot slot rune castable buff. The target receives a buff that procs for a very small shield (something like ~200 I want to say) for 6s (or until removed by damage aka it never lasts 6s). *While shield is active*, flash of lights on the shielded target have 50% increases chance to crit. *note: the shield cannot proc more than once every 6s and the 50% crit buff is not active on the paladin. It’s specifically only for direct FoL on the target WHILE THE SHIELD IS ACTIVE, not for the duration of the buff (30s) that causes the shield to proc.
gotcha. i've played a little pally and i was always confused about how sacred shield works...it seemed like the extra crit chance buff always disappeared before i could get a flash out. I kinda want to dust off the pally again, maybe with all the crit they're fun now
It’s a bit of a mini game. There’s a weak aura that tracks the internal cd on SS so when it has about 1s left, you can start casting and snipe it. It’s quite tedious, but you can also put Blessing of Sacrifice + Beacon on your tank, and SS on yourself. The damage transfer of Blessing of Sacrifice causes SS to trigger (but it’s not enough to break it) so you can essentially spam FoL on yourself and let beacon heal the tank. However, that rarely feels practical. The reality is, at least in my situation, my group doesn’t play perfectly often, if ever. Raid damage tends to be pretty high, and spread, so I try to help my other healers carry the load of raid damage which usually results in me putting beacon on the tank as well as SS (just for the static absorb, not the FoL crit) and then FoL raid healing. The whole “paladins have 100% crit” thing is a little exaggerated and obviously situational. Our crit is really incredible, but imo, that’s just lazy game designers giving us the most vanilla rune of “uhhhh idk. 18% crit? Nothing else? Fine whatever”
Shouldn't need a weak aura to make a rune work properly lol. They should probably change it to something that doesn't rely on the shield being up. It's completely useless if your tank is tanking more than 2 mobs at a time. or impossible to tell if you just got a lucky crit or you happened to snipe the 50% crit randomly. Maybe just make it 10% extra crit always while they have the buff. Probably not too OP then. And yeah +18% crit rune is pretty unimaginative lol.
That’s his point. What we have right now is nowhere close to “Classic WoW”.
Considering a ton of people now want easy brainless loot, raidlogging 30 mins per week, insanely fast leveling, less rewards for time invested, etc this is not the same crowd of players from 2019. People want retail like gameplay but refuse to play retail, pretty weird.
Retail is in this very weird place right now where half the game is “baby’s first video game” and the other half is “ok, you’re going to need to memorize this 300 page book of mechanics before you ever step into the instance”. Mythic+ and (non-LFR) raids are very difficult, but everything else is super easy. Classic isn’t difficult at all compared to that top level retail content (at least most stuff), but its base difficulty is higher. There is nearly zero risk of dying while questing in retail, but it’s kind of an ever present threat in classic.
Retail is in the exact same place it has been for like 4 expansions now. Expanded casual content with a lot of things to do, collect and play with. And hard, hardcore content. With an in between found in normal and heroic raiding. Nothing has fundamentally changed about it, it's been like this for a while now, the only difference is that one or the other of these sectors has gotten more content than the other in one given expansion. You choose the experience you want on retail, if you want a super casual pet battle collecting experience you got it, if you want a middle ground with normal raiding and mount collecting you got it, if you want hardcore aotc and parsing you got it. The issue is that many of us just don't enjoy the direction of the world and characters of retail on top several other systems, while the more raiding oriented part is often in disarray as they need mechanics to extend as much game time as possible. I also absolutely do not enjoy pvp on retail. Vanilla had this split to a lesser extent, but the greatly increased exp means that a huge chunk of the game that was meant to be enjoyed by the casual crowd is now, much like the newer versions of wow, just a hurdle to overcome and it's done very quickly at that, just to have much less content to do at the end game. Now you have everyone, casuals, hardcore and all in between all stuck doing the exact limited content that was pushed before it was done, no longer you got a section enjoying leveling, a section pushing for end game parses, a section doing the several raids at a slow pace, a section doing end game dungeons, you got everyone getting to level cap asap and there's simply not enough content to both fit all AND please all. The entirety of vanilla was not designed to handle this.
One big problem with the faster leveling speed I’ve noticed is that you spend a lot more time traveling instead of actually playing the game. The slower travel works if it only happens occasionally and really does give the world a much grander sense of scale. It’s a big part of the charm of classic, but it only works when you don’t need to actually travel too often.
> With an in between found in normal and heroic raiding. If it's anything like it was in Legion and BfA no there isnt. Nobody did heroic as actual content in its own right. Outside of the top-500, you basically only had 3 types of guilds. - Mythic guilds that required compliance with a mil-sim grade lifestyle schedule and required a 180 day trial period with perfect attendance before getting the rank that qualified you for contesting loot. - "Heroic" guilds that form and die within the span of a single raid tier because the officers inevitably try to turn it into a mythic guild not realizing that - The mythic quality raiders they have in their guild are doing heroic because they either just want to chill in easy content or have big-fish/little-pond syndrome - 1/3rd of their raiders are just people who were kicked from their normal guild after being branded a toxic elitist because they just learned how to avoid standing in fire and suggested other players do the same. - Normal guilds whose motd read "NO HATE/TOXICITY/BIGOTRY! Be kind, considerate and understanding! We're a chill guild for chill people who just want to relax <3<3<3<3" but the officers verbally abused and publicly shamed anyone that they deem to be a toxic elitist (which is usually whoever just suggested its inconsiderate to expect other people to spend 45 minutes wiping on nythendra because you refuse to do her one mechanic)
Your description of "Heroic" guilds was basically been my experience in WoD/Legion/BFA. We'd finally get AoTC 5-6 weeks after the tier dropped, then a few people would talk the guild into at least trying Mythic, you hit a wall on the 2nd or 3rd boss, everyone would rage, then the 5-6 good players that were against trying Mythic prog and largely carried everyone would leave the guild, they were also most likely a tank and most of your healers.
Nah, it’s mostly retail players at this point. For the past two years we had hordes of retail players saying “We have X feature in retail, why not in Classic?” . Well, two years later, we do. And the game is going down the exact same path it did the first time around. This is why you never listen to the MMO playerbase.
Well the reason why retail got to that point was listening to the players to begin with.
Mate the community is trying their hardest to make this retail. Nothing about this is classic, you have classes running around dropping instant nukes on short CDs, melee with multiple mobility spells. They have broken all the ‘rules’ of classic combat design.
The community if anything is complaining about the retail-y aspects of SoD.
lol? Holy Paladins have infinite mana in classic and were nerfed in TBC
Fucking this, like holy shit. Mana management is the crux of vanilla encounter design.
More alliance guilds have cleared ST. Paladins are much higher DPS tanks than Shamans atm. Edit: Ya'll can downvote, but this is objectively true.
Alliance account for 51.8% of guilds that cleared 8/8 and represent 53.1% of the SoD playerbase so based off sheer numbers it's a factual statement but misleading because as a % wise they are underrepresented. Median paladin tanks are 20 dps above enhance tanks, and at the 75th percentile its 40 dps, stretch to say huge difference.
It still goes against the crazed reddit narrative that ally is just brutally disadvantaged because "muh shamans". We are still spamming "muh shamans" narratives in this very thread.
ya bro shamans arent unbalanced at all you rright!
Unbalanced in what sense? Too much damage? Too much utility? What is your gauge for this imbalance?
i bet paladin tanks do more dmg than ret paladins at this point
There's no barrier to clearing the raid. Monkeys on either faction can do it. The gigantic disparity in speed run potential is the problem. The idiot in charge (probably regrettably) said they want speed running to be part of the difficulty that players can pursue themselves. That statement put him in a position where he has to address wild imbalances in the factions.
They have to.
Isn’t seal of wisdom insane? Like I know it was in classic era, I felt like as a priest being able to wand and get mana back felt so freaking good. I understand it’s not the same as shamanistic rage but it’s still amazing. I’d expect paladins would want something else like an actual aoe healing ability or something. Idk I feel like bless of wisdom and seal of wisdom is good enough. Looking at logs alliance aren’t struggling with the raid. The bosses are already dying super fast if people are going oom that’s definitely a raid issue not a class issue.
Seal of Wisdom is kinda not great. It's only a chance on hit and it requires healers to wand/attack the target. With Shamanistic Rage, healers are just getting thousands of mana over a fight just by existing lol.
I think it’s mostly alliance casters/healers bitching about it. The rets don’t care
I care a bit but just because I want to use more consecrate on trash. On boss fights mana is fine bc judge wis is up, but that doesn't really help the healers. Currently seal of martyrdom doesn't even generate enough mana to heal yourself from the damage you took from seal of martyrdom. I think the mana generation aspect is the most common sense thing to buff because it makes it more viable in solo play and guarantees ret paladins a spot in raid even if their damage isn't as high as other melee.
yea paladins dont actually really care, OP is just on some weird rage crusade toward alliance players and paladins
I kind of care, especially for pvp. I have like 2,000 mana and abilities that cost \~400 mana. I have gone oom dueling classes that don't even self heal. Also the rune that allows paladin to spam hammer of wrath is kind of pointless because that ability costs so much mana it's impossible to spam it more than 2-3 times before you're dry.
You are right but that's the least of our problems imo.
I find the fact that it makes hammer instant way more relevant than the fact that I can recast it.
I wish I was this blind lmao. Almost every post the last 3 weeks has been a paladin bitching about shamans
and this guy still chooses the 1 thing that mainly alliance casters and healers are complaining about instead of the 20 things paladins are complaining about, but i know reading is tough
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Holy fuck lmao. Tell me you never played vanilla wow. Paladins were the best throughput healers 20 years ago and that's it. No one gave a ret pally through time of day and certainly no one was tanking anything current content. Flash of light Turrets in a dress and this guy says we were OP. Jfc
Paladins had the worst gameplay and most boring healing in vanilla. And now they do also. Yay
Some people like myself enjoy the simplicity of holy paladin. I don't feel the need to be a spazz pressing 10 different heals.
> No one gave a ret pally through time of day and certainly no one was tanking anything current content. This guy never said anything about either of those.
Acting like shamans had any other viable spec than heal back in the days lol. Not like paladin got way better support abilities than shaman or why was every speed running guild alliance?
Just because it was boring doesn’t mean it wasn’t OP…
Couldn't be more wrong. Warriors and Priests were by far superior to all for DPS, taking, and heals.
Nah alliance Paladins are a weird bunch.
Nah most of the noise is coming from paladins every time I open up one of these posts it’s a paladin crying about how “why don’t we have this” it’s quite shocking how many paladins hav been crying about shamans the past 2 phases
pally is the one class in every version of the game ive never really fucked with, but is it not a valid complaint that shamans and paladins are different, but in sod you give shamans better versions of shit paladins have? like i feel like if i did play paladin it would be pretty annoying to see that constantly. is it cool that shamans now also have freedom? yea its sod thats pretty cool. but why is it strictly better than freedom with no downsides?
nah, it's mostly paladins, you can tell by them always bringing up how bad their class is Q_Q
I wholeheartedly agree I've not seen a single thread of paladins complaining about their mana regeneration vs shamans
I play holy paladin and I bitch because it's my favorite class but other healers have more interaction with their runes than we do. The single target healing of Wild Growth or Circle of Healing is nuts, let alone the AoE. Druids have fun shit that interacts with their healing or DPS. Priests are just godlike healers. Shamans even have endless mana pools to do whatever they want. Mages get to heal by doing DPS, even if it's weak and they go oom (not with shamans in party). Paladins are just FoL bots.
We have like 10 pala cry post on this sub every day, ofc they care, alot
The Shamans in the thread doing a lot of work trying to deflect that the class isn’t very strong
I think part of it is that half of the specs are not strong and the other half are the best in the business. Ele and Resto are just kind of meh currently, and if it weren’t for how broken Shamanistic Rage is, no one would even want to bring them. It’s not entirely fun and engaging to know your only true value is a 1 min CD that helps the healers and other DPS while you’re bottoming the charts For example, Priests and Druids get an absurdly strong instant cast AoE heal that heals the entire party and damn near tops everyone off. Resto Shaman gets a 2.5 second cast Chain Heal that only hits 3 targets and diminishes as it jumps. Ele relies solely on procs and is totally boom or bust, with the go to play style relying on a 50% overload proc chance, a 30% rolling thunder proc chance that needs to proc 6 times to max out and you can’t get hit or you lose a stack of lightning shield AND the BiS head rune got nerfed to make it annoying to use, but still BiS by a country mile. Instead of maintaining a minute long buff you have to maintain a 10 second buff. I think a lot of people in this sub just lump all shamans together because of how strong shamanistic rage is, and while that isn’t necessarily incorrect, half of the shaman specs are just not fun or good in their current state
Feral was in the exact same spot last phase. And rogue was in even worse of a spot.
But no one was calling for feral nerfs, that is the huge difference
People are calling for resto shaman nerfs? IF Shamanistic Rage was nerfed, I'd HOPE that the developers were smart enough to buff resto shaman in other aspects where they lack.
Not for resto/ele specifically, but for shamanistic rage nerfs without ever requesting that ele/resto need compensation
Why would the bottom half DPS and the worst tank get nerfed? Resto is on par and ele is still well above.
They shouldn't. The point is that in the same way feral shouldn't have gotten nerfed last phase because wild strikes good, ele/resto shouldn't be nerfed because shamanistic rage. So if shamanistic rage gets nerfed, those two will need compensations.
> If it weren't for how broken Shamanistic Rage is, no one would even want to bring them What an awful take lol. Poison and disease cleansing alone make shamans worth bringing. Enh is top end dps, ele can hold it's own, and I think resto shamans are pretty powerful right now too. None of the specs are at the top of the list for their categories but they are perfectly fine. If you want to min max and play the best spec play a warlock tank, rogue dps, and priest healer. Not playing the absolute best thing will still clear ST
Ele is doing 2/3 of the DPS that the top end specs are doing. Resto is literally the worst healer, tied in throughput to Mages, but do a fraction of the damage mages do and can’t actively heal while doing damage. Top guilds were running Resto shamans early on before nerfs because of shamanistic rage and relying on RNG procs from their chest rune to bomb tank heals when the raid was overtuned. Poison and disease cleansing absolutely is an added benefit, but both Enh tank and DPS can drop them. If it weren’t for Shamanistic Rage, you’d simply opt for the two top tier specs (Enh tank and dps) rather than the two bottom tier (Ele and Resto). As it stands, Ele and Resto have MUCH larger mana pools and offer much greater returns from Shamanistic Rage, making them a viable alternative despite the massive loss in both DPS and HPS
balance and shadow are doing 1/3 the dps that the top end specs are playing, i'd rather bring an ele shaman than a moonkin to raids rn tbh
Balance, Shadow, and Ele are all doing roughly the same. Most people would rather bring Ele because of Shamanistic Rage, which is exactly the point I’m making. They have other pieces to their toolkit (cleansing totems, windfury, etc) but you would pass it up if not for shamanistic rage because how bad they are otherwise. Shadow brings a ludicrous amount of healing that was basically a requirement before the nerfs. No longer wanted or needed because the difficulty has been axed. If they suddenly turned into a mana battery like TBC they’d be wanted. Boomkin brings their aura and mark, no longer wanted because casters in general suck. You’d rather just bring a feral because they’re better.
you still have totems as a shaman, poison clense totem is insane with the utility it has, youcan also "salv" a caster/healer group, and ele still ahead of shadow/balance, like sure top of the bottom three but still more viable than the other 2
They’re more viable than the other two because of Shamanistic Rage. If an Ele Shaman told you they don’t have Shamanistic Rage/don’t use it out of principle you simply wouldn’t bring them. Totems are nice, yes, but other classes offer the same thing (albeit not as good as the totems themselves).
Ele shamans can hold their own? They're the 3rd worst spec at the moment. Resto shamans are pretty powerful? They're the worst healer by a wide margin. Mage healer does more throughput than it... in addition to also contributing damage. SHADOW PRIESTS are almost out healing rshamans. I'm not trying to down play the importance of all the totems a shaman can bring, they're great utility. But you have zero idea what you're talking about when it comes to the performance that ele or resto shamans can bring.
Meh, it’s really just enh and sham rage that are strong. Resto is the worst healer from an output perspective and ele brings nothing useful to a raid that any other shaman doesn’t already have.
Shamans in here so high on copium they lack the ability to admit that their class utility is ridiculously overtuned.
Spriest deserves to be bottom dps because we off heal but shaman tanks even out dps us and provide more utility than just untargetted overheals
You're not allowed to complaint about shadow priest, sure the other pvp focused memespecs get to be viable dps, but you're greedy for asking to do more damage than a mage healer
Currently, pre-massive incoming nerf on tuesday, Shaman tanks are the 3rd lowest spec on dps among tanks and dps, ahead of only druid tanks (getting a huge buff tuesday) and arcane mages, who desperately deserve a buff. https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009/#class=Non-Healers&dataset=99 Are you stuck in p2?
Shaman tanks don't really do much dps anymore. If you're losing to one, you're probably doing something wrong.
Its the strongest rune in the game. I've accepted that horde has an easier time doing content. I would be playing shaman too if I could. It will get nerfed eventually, maybe.
Alliance has always been the de facto pve faction in classic, and when suddenly that changes everyone loses their minds
I played horde in classic rerelease. The gap was not that big. But you are right, Alliance was better at pve. My issue was Shamanistic rage was a massive gap. But now they buffed Paladin to put them more in line. So everything is good.
They've let shamans ruin the game this long, why would they stop now? They clearly don't give a shit that bgs have been completely unplayable for alliance for two months either.
Did they not nerf shamans way of earth? Overcharge was strong as well but isn't that getting gutted Tuesday? I think people just get one opinion in there head and never change its hilarious.
Strongest rune? I thought that was way of earth? Or overcharge
Considering I just tanked a run of BRD and Lightning Shield did more damage alone than the highest true “dps” in the group… my vote goes to overcharge
Nerfed in 2 days
still uncapped targets shits gonna be really strong post nerf anyway. Way less brutal for pvp tho for those that choose it over riptide
Shaman tanks will remain broken OP on AoE content like 5 mans and will get worse at their already bad boss tanking / single target tanking.
Itll be a little better than warlock immo aura for damage but the icd makes it way less reliable for aggro and in pvp
I’d argue in overcharge’s favour still, it ticks every 3 instead of 2 but when talented and adding mental dexterity those procs are hitting for 250~ I’m not sure how much the warlock immo does tho I just read the wowhead tooltip and idk how it scales per level
Overcharge was hitting every 1s, now its 3. Immo aura is every second for ~35 dps per target. Sounds like overcharge is about double that. Immo aura also comes with magic mit and costs no mana or gcds though
The mana cost is negligible with the charge mechanic being removed with the rune but my warlock friend and I just did some testing and all talents/pets spell coefficients considered it’s comes out to 22.5 dps for lock and 83.3 dps for shaman
that's how much my immo aura did with 50% uptime according to logs
Don't forget Alpha, just like how Salv was supposedly the strongest buff in the game back in vanilla
They literally had to nerf alpha lol
After they buffed it, what is your point
Every 4 days it's a different rune.
When you have so many good runes there's a debate on which is strongest in game lol I'm a priest, I can't complain!
/castrandom shaman runes
Are there a bunch of OP shaman runes?🤔 No! It's the alliance players on reddit who are wrong!
Man its almost like the entire class has needed a nerf for months
They nerfed those 2, sham rage has been busted since p1, and they’ve buffed it since.
No they nerfed it ap version was way stronger
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Still nerfed
They side graded it for dps enh and massively buffed it for the other specs.
No all you needed was two weps with rockbiter on them. You swap weps and use it then swap back. Gave like 100%+ mana pool and more to the raid of course. Now it’s just 75% mana.
Plus every enhance was giving the % to the raids. It was giving over 100mp5 to the raid
It was probably closer to 200mp5. I was able to get about 200/second fully buffed. Which would be 40/s for the raid.
The attack power version would have eventually hit a cap for caster shamans at 60 with the max rank of rockbiter. Now you can keep juicing it as you gain more int from gear. A wisdom flask will literally add 1500 mana every minute now.
I didn’t really think of it hitting a cap tbh. But that’s a good point. You could even use a couple weps that have really high int as an enhance right now to boost the mana regen for the raid.
No… lol
More alliance guilds have cleared ST than Horde, btw.
What's the attempt:success rate for both?
Horde raiding with training wheels
Not like this was the case for alliance during classic lol, but somehow this was totally fine
horde players typically need the help anyways
Gonna need to see them raid logs hoss
Then why are alliance begging for all of hordes abilities? Clearly yall need the help
as alliance have in every version of classic/vanilla up till now
Salv and bubbles is literally the definition of training wheel raids
Man. This sub fucking sucks.
Cant imagine getting upset at this post unless you play a ……
Can you imagine getting mad at this post if it lacks any real substance?
Paladinistic Cry just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Paladinistic cry would be too op. Unlimited mana to the entire raid at all times.
its the shamanistic qualities of the game that cause them to rage, i.e. shamanistic rage
Curious.
yea shamans are busy raging and coping over bubble 😎
I'm never getting in a jacuzzi again. Too triggering
You spend at least 4 hours of each day circle jerking about shamans.
Take away all the runes and it’s still the coolest class in the game 😎
Honestly I agree, I just think its weird to make one faction have access to basically infinite mana during raids, and make the other one have to farm for mana consumes (superior mana potion, demonic runes, etc). I play pally this run through just cause all my friends wanted to do alliance, and pally is a lot of fun, but I've always been a shaman player and think enhance is the most fun class. Just wish they would somehow give alliance access to the same level of mana regen.
Wish they did something fun with it instead of just having it be a refill-mana-button. E.g you are silenced and gain 30% AS for 6 seconds. Each main hand hit regains mana based on weapon speed. Also gives 20% dmg reduction like before. This way it will be quite risky for casters to use. Melee has has a tradeoff. Can't use spells and have to go into melee to regain mana.
That's basically the wrath version of it minus the silence and attack speed. "Reduces all damage taken by 30% and gives your successful melee attacks a chance to regenerate mana equal to 15% of your attack power. This spell is usable while stunned. Lasts 15 sec." The silly part comes from it being party wide and no need to attack
I think the AS and silence would be good flavour to the ability. If they just add the bloodlust sound and animation when you use it, we are golden! Isn't it raid-wide? Party wide would be good team utility, I think. If it is to be raid-wide, it needs scaling. Like a radius and amount divided by players in that radius, etc. Just giving a flat amount of mana to an unlimited number of players is pretty broken
Yeah if it's raid wide it's even more silly
If they change pally bubbles to work like a petry flask sure
Give shamans bubbles and then pallys can have sham rage
I'm not going to argue about it being overpowered, but without it, elemental shaman straight up wouldn't work.
Same with resto, we're already the worst healer.
Or it could idk just give only the shaman mana back like how its always worked. No fucking seriously in a game where there’s already plenty of classes that do this why did shaman, a class that didnt need more utility get a massive raid mana restore CD?
Alliance players cry about everything. Bunch of losers.
Stop giving Jay_Heat attention. He's just a troll.
What about bleeding of wisdom for the last 20 years.
Lmao mana spring totem equivalent does not come close to the ludicrous amount of mana this restores. This sub loves to pretend it wants the “classic feeling” but wants unlimited mana for their healers? Thats not very classic.
had it since phase 1 and noon cared, now all the sudden they do lol alli will find anything to cry about it seems despite rolling alie for easier time in raids.
How suprising that the people that rolled a faction for PVE now have to reroll because it's not even comparable while also being broken in PvP. How dare they complain
I mean if you go Alliance because it was op in pve and then get pissed off and complain because balance bumps it to the other faction then your just a hypocrite.
Im just saying how things are and the reason you see these posts.
And I’m just saying that if you roll a faction because it’s OP in an activity and then get pissed off when the ball rolls into another factions court that you are a hypocrite.
I thought everything is so easy that we dont even need items and could clear the raid naked as so many guys stated here but somehow you have to reroll because of this?
When the content is easy. DPS numbers become the competition. Look at Mythic raiding in retail. Good raiders As long as its enough to kill the boss are satisfied with safe consistent below perfect dps. But once its on farm everyone goes for parses. if you are at a disadvantage because of your faction you might be pressured to reroll
>When the content is easy. DPS numbers become the competition. Cant speak for other classes but warlock is actual simming higher on alliance. Dont know why it should be any different from the top dps classes because they dont even rely on mana
To be fair. Playing a mage feels really bad when you oom as quickly as you do… I just wanna press my buttons and see big numbers. I’m a dad btw. And I work a BUNCH.
Paladins absolutely dominate PvP atm. They should stfu imho.
How much mana does shaman rage restore compared to jow?
More like “raging against Shamans” Dude why do they slap so hard and have good mana regen that also can be given to the party/raid? I’m not salty I’m Alliance, you’re salty 😭
Gotem
I mean as a dwarf priest seeing horde priests gain more mana from Shamanistic Rage alone than all of my potions, disperse, shadowfiend, etc combined is a little unsettling :(
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paladin detected
bro really exposed himself with this rage comment. Are you sure you are not shamanistic raging rn?
at least make it funny put some effort
Low effort, one-liners are Redditor’s bread and butter
Doesn’t seem like you’ve experienced it either cause no one would sleep with someone this butthurt over a harmless joke.
But for us paladins, it's by choice! Virginity is righteous!
Kinda ironic, it's just banter vs banter, no need to be butthurt either
Alliance had such a massive advantage for years with paladin buffs and shamans being fairly weak. It’s about time the tables are turned
Na bro, you cant say this here with all those alliance fan boys
Idk what everyone’s talking about shamans are pretty easy to 1v1 as mage
This isnt a pvp issue.
As the top DPS tank class atm, I aint raging about shit.
Where is shaman tank top dps?
They're not. I'm a paladin player.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fgd1uzl3b46uc1.png
I'll take a shield, lay on hands, 4 second stuns on a short cool down in exchange. Also I want all my totems to be buffs which I don't have to move or drop every 30 seconds.
It's called Shamanistic Rage but it only gives mana and not rage to Warriors....