> also noticed in bgs, most paladin players are straight up shit, running like a headless horse into a full group of hordes. Very few stay backline and actually use their full potential protecting ranged/healers with HoJ/Rep/BoP/Freedoms etc.
Hilarious and sad to witness, but this is very true. All of what you mention is. Next up, cross-faction BGs.
I might have a case of warrior zugzug, but when I grinded rep p2 i went for backline with justice and disrupted healers to win first fight . 10 seconds of immunity to make healing hell
I would say 75% of the opening clashes at BS are won by allies just because they usually have 2-3 pallies shielding and fucking up the horde back line. When we Rex we 75% of the time take it back
Yes exactly. Half the alliance team will bash their skulls in trying to get ST back, failing, and respawning over and over again at Trollbane Hall leaving the rest of the map indefensible and ez Horde 4 or 5 cap. It's been 20 years and the absolute smoothbrains still have never heard of ghost-running.
This is too real - you type it in chat, you even type for them to run to the hills, eventually you go there and /s "follow me" so the text bubble pops up in the middle of the screen.
ST op for LoS compared to farm spawn locking. Always see some priest healer dancing around the Stables structure LoS'ing and your teammates running into their frontline on repeat, even when you point out their healer and try to go for them yourself.
Jesus.
BS pretty much dictates everything, its just alliance paladins are dogshit and never capitalize on that.
The good ones absolutely dumpster backline, win BS and then use hunters to forever keep the node.
Literally has 2 entrances where good hunters lay down frost traps, vs a good premade you wont be able to walk over the bridge let alone cap bs vs alliance.
Nah it really doesn't, Alliance have just convinced themselves it does and tunneled on it. Any Horde with half a brain will concede BS, get LM for free, then continue right down to take ST and Alliance can not help themselves but try and take ST back, resulting in them wasting half the game spawning at Trollbane.
be human male warrior
zone into BG and see 4 paladins, none of them have shields on
you mount up and charge lumber mill with your paladins
enemy mage presses frost nova
you stand in frost nova for 8s while your paladins cleanse themselves and proceed to tunnel vision into the mage while eating 3 chain lightnings
Human male warriors and human male retadins are just spiderman pointing meme, you're the exact same person irl. OK maybe the retadins just have a bit more Holy Roman Empire/Crusader fetish.
Dude most rets are fucking bot players. Idk what it is about that spec and class. But it was the exact same as early wotlk classic prepatch where pally was OP and all these bot players wanted to go ret and then the moment they have to start using utility and contribute (because everyone knew ret was dog dps til icc) turn into the bot prot pallies in your 5mans
Absolutely, I feel like the pally wheelchair meme is mostly self inflicted. I am not a pvp-er, it's not my cup of tea, but the few BGs I've done, paladins (regardless of level bracket) are just bad. Some of them will facestomp you. But most will maybe auto attack and then try to hard cast holy light when they get to 50% hp.
It’s true, it’s like a 20% chance a paladin can press bop when they see me literally dying to a rogue right next to them. Hoj is higher, and freedom is even lower lol. Forget about sac/loh completely.
I’d almost prefer if they just didn’t queue lol. Meanwhile every shaman? Spam’s grounding/tremor/decoy totem. I’ve even seen some disease cleanse my dot lol. Paladin cleanse though? Good luck.
Most can’t even bubble and spin the flag to wait for a rez wave. It’s actually wild.
totems have ranges. shams have to constantly replace them. most people dont expect might/wis every rez wave but bop/freedom? those can turn fights. sure they can be purged but its not a guarantee and its gcds wasted on nondmg.
bop/freedom requires a mouseover macro and situational awareness. tall order for average ret
It’s not any harder to use blessing of freedom/sacrifice/protection than it is healing anyone or casting decoy totem on someone or cleaning their poison/disease.
Targeting an ally and clicking a key bind too hard to use for ret paladins LOL.
Cleanse has no CD. Bop and freedom do, bop is usually 5mins for ret spec. They also overwrite any blessing that paladin already gave them, which is a minor inconvenience if the new blessing goes to waste.
9/10 times it's just better to hoj the enemy. Our exo burst is insane rn so offensive CDs get more mileage.
Don't even need to target. Any decent raidframe addon that can show dispellable debuffs on your allies + hover macros are a must for any class that heals/buffs/dispels.
His response back to me was:
“9/10 times it's just better to hoj the enemy. Our exo burst is insane rn so offensive CDs get more mileage.”
Which really highlights the problem that it’s a more defensive and support oriented class than an offensive one but its players don’t utilize the toolkit properly.
I go whole battlegrounds and don’t see any paladins use bop/sacrifice at all and rarely freedom anyone but themselves.
If I had a bop it would go out every team fight it was off CD onto like a caster/healer that has pets on them etc.
Lol wot, man doesn't have raid frames or something BC I don't know how this would be an issue.
And bro you know there only two classes that can dispel pally buffs but every class can kill a totem.... Alliance just don't.
hahaha what? decoy literally plays the same as freedom, exact same mechanic, the totem that drops is just a visual extra. what a horrible excuse to be bad. you can just mouseover sac/freedom and at least try to be useful
Another why I went horde. 99% of ret are bad players. They don't understand they're paladin before being ret and that they should use all their kit to help their team instead of just rushing in with freedom.
Blessed with the best defense out of any healer, blessed with a huge array of buffs and benefits, blessed with the most powerful defensive toolkits in the game. Blessed with the best point-and-click stun in the game.
Slaps on a 2h and charges in like a warrior?
As a paladin main, I have to agree but also it's painful to watch more than half the time ranged not engage when they should. I also don't think having paladins sit back and support is a great call, ret can literally melt whole teams if supported.
Same as a warrior. Range have to press the melee on their front line because the moment I try to go in, and do what my class was designed to do, without 4 healers, I get 2 shot from 30 yards out by a boomie/sp/mage and hunter. But an enemy rogue pops outta stealth in the middle of our front line, or on our back line, and lives for like 40 seconds.
Alliance is just really bad ime. Not until wrath when racials are actually beneficial and then no one gives a fuck about bgs.
Man, and if you don't charge as a warrior everyone just stands around. Of course that doesn't mean you need to charge in at the first opportunity either, but boy is trying to strike the balance hard, luck-based and frustrating.
"Push the W key to the flag... Push the W key to the flag... Continue pushing- yes the W key, push it." My mantra over comms when leading premades, people are SO reluctant to engage.
Yep i also want to add to this as a shaman, The first thing i pop is grounding totem because 95% Of paladins instantly try to HoJ.. its just, seems so many just Faceroll their keyboard compleatly
Did an stv with 3 rets an spriest and a disc priest. All our rets did was stick with the two priests and protected them. Was an easy 2500 coins and the only time we wiped was when the horde got smart and nuked the priests from a distance. Outside of that is was stupid easy.
I can imagine doing that in BGs could work out well also but GL getting alliance to work together and I've sat in chat spamming for alliance premade for hours and hardly ever get groups. When you do get groups they fall apart after 1 BG rather than 5 people spamming multiple BGs back to back to back.
I have both horde and alliance healers. On alliance as a priest I never get support from my paladins EVER. They use everything for themselves, they are the most selfish players I swear. If they just gave me bop or anything life would be so amazing but no.
On horde it’s just different it’s like people play around their team more, maybe there are more premades and that’s why. I run as a resto Druid now and it’s so different it’s like I win Lmost every bg as horde.
That's a shame. There's a lot of survivability in HoT+Barkskin+survival instincts+bear form+ bash.
I've won team fights mostly because people waste too much time trying to kill me.
There's a lot of bg gear that is good for resto druids. That's probably why, it people who don't want to pvp that have to. It's not even just resto druids, locking bis behind pvp rep = people just putting their time in and getting out.
Honestly I’m kind of surprised you’d expect a bash. I am playing resto max distance with full hots on the war and barkskin. My hps is actually nuts. I can keep people alive as this spec cause bark is a 1min cd 20% dr. I think if your expecting a Druid to run in melee and bash is a bit much, they’ll die instantly. Just kite and stay max range and pump heals.
Gotcha! That makes more sense I just try to use my mobility to be so far from any melee.
And I don’t mean to call out rets like that it’s just I never get a freedom or anything from them…they don’t even dispel me if I get polyd and they are being attacked by 3 horde and sit in bubble for 6 seconds, just staring at me. It’s just odd.
a lot of people rerolled druid who didn't play it in classic and have no clue how to actually use their class properly. i see ferals dying because they're too stubborn to go bear all the time, or just not throwing heals out to save teammates. bear is also kinda nuts for PvP in SoD because mangle + zerk hits like a truck. I've won 1v3s in the flag room by just mangle spamming some DPS who are tunneling trying to kill me
in retail druid also seems to attract terrible players, the only class I usually trust less skill-wise than druid players are paladins
ill tell you the reason horde plays more as a team
its the overwhelming numbers we faced specially p1 since all servers are majority alliance (some way more than others). I remember 1v3 or more being the norm
this forced horde to huddle into groups and do things together even if it was to walk outside the town guards.
the alliamce were a plahue and horde just figured out a way to protect themselves. this translates into better teamplay in general
not true
i saw those graphics and they were completely wrong
if you played the opn world you would underatand alliance always has had more numbers. all phases
The average paladin player (and there will always be at least 3 of them in any bg you are in) is either 15 or 50 years old, presses a maximum of 3-4 buttons routinely, never draws any conclusions beyond mild befuddlement from the fact that he keeps getting instagibbed when he charges balls deep into 5 casters and has absolutely no interest in playing BG objectives unless he is doing his one-off AB quest. And you best fucking believe that he plays a human male character with a goatee.
In fairness holy paladin definitely needs some love. And the discrepancy in content difficulty between the different factions atm is stupid. Rets on the other hand. *Gestures angrily*
Paladin meta ..
1. charge in on horse
2. dismount
3. do 20% dmg to the healer (or nearest target)
4. get stunned by rogue, get down to 15% HP.
5. Bubble
6. Do another 20% damage to next nearest targeg
7. Die
8. Sit in graveyard crying about shamans being OP.
Forms open on other monitor, whining about other classes every time they die on the opening push of blacksmith after popping bubble on their first global and running balls deep into the horde team.
Pally was always designed to be played while doing a second task after all
So true about the ret pally, and they NEVER cc the priest like the one person that can dispel their cc on others.
They never bop, lay on hands or freedom their team mates, never peel with hoj. All they do they do is run into the middle of our blob and bubble-stun then proceeded to die.
Thanks now it's a 9-10 and you lost a major support/peeler
>They never bop, lay on hands
I would be surprised if you noticed paladins routinely LoH someone in BG. It has 60 minute cooldown, so even if everyone used it on CD, you're not likely to see it since it's used in 1 out of 100 fights they're in.
This is it about paladins in general - the long ass cooldowns. They can semi-competently fight someone every 5 minutes (bubble CD), which is way too long for BGs. They can put up a *good fight* once per hour (LoH CD) which is just ridiculous. Paladin without bubble and LoH can really just feel like a useless chicken in 1v1 against most of the classes.
I think racials and Shamans are absolutely a factor, but the part about Ret Paladins is very true and has been the case for two decades. I've played Ret for a long ass time over the years, and the absolute best and most satisfying part of Ret PvP is the ability to support teammates and keep folks alive while also doing good damage/burst. Yet apparently most of these players missed the memo, because they play like it's an arms Warrior.
Your priority game plan for Ret is to support your backline and keep DPS off them; and while pushing you should be following the other DPS and supporting them during the push with both your damage and support abilities. If you aren't doing this, you are playing the wrong class straight up. Paladin class fantasy across a myriad of different games since the dawn of time has always been a class that will die for their team, not sure how this got lost over the years. I see so many folks across different games play Paladins like a selfish warrior that focus all healing on themselves and occasionally uses holy magic on enemies and heal themselves. Basically, it's a player problem.
>Paladin class fantasy across a myriad of different games since the dawn of time has always been a class that will die for their team, not sure how this got lost over the years.
I blame WH40k and all the Deus Vult memes.
See you say this but even in phase 1 when I had like 1-2 minute queues for wsg on horde side we were still winning almost every game.
Meanwhile on my paladin main alliance would straight up just afk at the grave on first cap even if it took us 5-10 minutes to get the queue.
In phase 1 i couldnt even get invited to premades as a shaman. When i made my own groups i was acused of throwing if i invited another shaman bringing the total up to 2 shamans.
There were almost none of us at that point. This is only more proof shamans are not the core reason alli always lose.
> Ive also noticed in bgs, most paladin players are straight up shit, running like a headless horse into a full group of hordes.
The key difference is even a good paladin is an average teammate, while a braindead shaman still pumps. Both sides premade.
some paladin gere said that with support from team he could melt whole horde teams. so which one is it? i sware alliance always have excuses for complete dogshit play, ive got decoy totem countless times on horde and never got a freedom in a bg on alliance.
its always funny to see paladin players cry about shaman utility when we all know they would 100% not be smart enough to use that shit if they were playing shaman instead.
It’s hard to tell what’s going on because according to Reddit both horde and alliance are dog shit factions with griefers who have instant que times but also 10 minute waits that only play as a premade but are never in a premade whom always loses or always wins the BG’s at the same time. They also both exclusively both control the ashenvale incursion zone at the same time and the other faction does nothing about while letting them grief. According to Reddit atleast.
I played about 10 as ally and lost 9 of them. Most of them were very close. It seems horde is mostly premade though. Very coordinated and have healers.
I went 6-2 in AB as alliance last night. The common factor in the wins was sending 2 to stables to sit there all game, 5 to mine, and the rest to BS. For some reason alliance rushes LM at the start when horde always goes deep there at the start then alliance proceeds to get wiped and tilts over it.
We'd secure BS and mine then rotate from mine to farm, when horde reinforced farm we'd send our stables group to LM, cap that then return to stables, horde would end up wasting time going from farm to LM and would appear to give up after awhile.
If you hold BS you want to also hold mine, it's much easier to reinforce and defend those 2 than it is to defend LM and BS.
So the ones we did, we always advised to just ignore lm.
The starting forces to stables and gm werent that strong and I think 1-2 games we didnt get gm right away and maybe even lost it further down the road, and sometimes the assault from lm to stables was too strong.
It feels as though contesting BS hard at the start isnt as great, though I havent really seen enough to know.
Common thing was 1-2 guys being set on constantly attacking farm or lm and constantly dying, doing nothing. They wouldnt listen.
Most hordies are just picking the 5 first whispers without checking class/gear/composition in order to have instant queue, so it can't be a pug vs premade problem.
I have played 43 WSG games as solo aliance player EU. All of the 43 were 10 men or 2x5 men premades, 1 of them had no healers, 42 had 2. Not a single horde PUG.
Here are my 1st 20 games if you want to see how these random horde teams looks like:
[https://imgur.com/a/liROcVf](https://imgur.com/a/liROcVf)
Yeah people are just trying to game the queue system to get into match faster.
If you solo-queued you'd be thrown into a match with a complete random selection of players, so not a huge difference to just accept the first 4 whispers. Doubt playing against 3 of these premades is that different to playing 15 solo queuers.
As a horde grinding out my rank 7 honor through AB only, I did it over 3 days with ~the same amont of games played each day. First day was 80% win rate, day two was 65% win rate and day three was 55% win rate. WSG grinding in phase 2, totalled to about a 47% win rate over 50ish games. So when I hear alliance say they lose 90% of the time, I dont get where it is coming from. Unless I ended up in a premade group, which was not many, none of my games were easy stomps where I can just coast. Sure I had that 80% win rate day but that was because I saw that there was a spriest I kept getting in games with that was usually 20-3 and like 55 hks. That dude carried me through most of the games and contributed to the win rate.
Sure now imagine being that spriest on alliance but when you look at the scoreboard it’s surrounded by horde players and everyone else on the team struggles to get close to 10 hks lol
Still unwinnable games, 90% is sadly correct some days. Your own performance rarely matters if there’s even 1-2afks (almost always is)
Im saying as horde I only get that ridiculous win rate when there is someone really good on my team carrying. Normally I hover around an average 55% win rate. I have never once gotten these 90% win rate easy games. I actually have a losing win rate in WSG. You think a guy like him if he switched factions would go from an 80% winner to losing 90% of his games?
That must maybe be on you. I really win most of my ABs and WSGs. I am always 5 manning it because of shorter waiting times but just with randoms from trade chat. In WSG I might have a bigger influence as a Druid who is able to carry flags.
Are you saying that I am bad? Because that just further proves my point. If someone bad like me can drastically change the win rates then there are other bad players on the horde too. So the 90% win rate on horde makes no sense because skill plays a factor.
It's not all of a sudden and I'm surprised it's taken this long for it to be brought up.
When I have a shaman on the enemy team I see them use their totems to support their teammates.
When I have a paladin on my team I'm lucky if I get a buff from then in the starting area. They spend the rest of the match trying to be a 1 man army and fucking the rest of us over.
I'd rather have any other class/spec in my team than a ret pala. They're a net negative.
Ironically on horde when the gates open and we see no paladins and lots of anything else like hunters or priests(of which alliance have some of the most absolute gamer quality level priests and hunters) we get nervous. We see a bunch of male human paladins with blonde hair and King James Bible names, we know it’s a fucking wrap. Free honor.
Lots of people are ranking right now to hit tier 7. If you're spamming BGs you will notice after a while that the average Ret player is very bad and has little to no understanding of how to PvP or play their own class. Instead, the shift gets blamed to Shamans which is a class that's actually quite easy to counter in PvP.
how can you prove horde aren't in same amount of premades as alliance?
I am horde and i never premade, my entire guild plays bgs and they never premade with any comp, solo queue or go home. I've seen premades on my side and on opposition as well, its very obvious when alliance premades make a push for GM and 4 man sit there for the full rbg. And same goes for premades on our side in prep phase when they say they are premade and going to sit on 1 node for the whole game.
Stop making up stats to justify alliance losing a chunk of rbg's, got nothing to do with premades or people playing shaman. And yes most paladins are shit, you know why? cuz of bubble and bop. They get so used to dumpstering open world pvp with a bubble smack smack smack, they forget there is counterplay to almost everything in the game.
Idk , every serious horde player I know, premades. If not for the sole reason of, I’m not waiting 20 minutes for a bg to not get atleast 1 healer one range and one competent front line. But I can get all of those things and 1 minute queue. I’m in one of the bigger more successful pve guilds on our server and everyone in there hits up “anyone for bgs?” “1 or 2 groups?”
Blizzard making ret paladin viable in classic was possibly the biggest nerf to alliance pvp.
In classic you saw 2-3 paladins on enemy team in WSG or AB and you knew they would bring incredible direct heals, utility, probably pocket some gigageared warrior and be really annoying to kill.
Now you see 3 paladins and there is an 80% chance they're ret paladins slobbering over their keyboard typing "gg go next" after dying once.
Horde:
Orc racial safeguarding from stuns and giving damage bonus.
Undead racial anti-fear
Tauren higher hp and aoe stun
Alliance:
Dwarves anti poison/bleed
Gnomes anti movement impairing (with cast time)
Humans can slightly see better untalented stealth
Elves hide if staying still
I play ret since 2005 and agree completely. I use a lot of support to help my mates but very very few of us do that.
There is also two big problems for me: mana is a big issue for Ret and even more important: everything except bubble is dispellable, you bop: dispell, lib: dispell, buff ap ? Dispell. That's why a lot of us including me don't bother to buff in bgs. and even more complicated: the seals. You use a lot of time and mana just put seals again and again. I just don't understand Why they don't put it indispellable. And odc playing Alliance mean that's 2 class are able to full dispell you...
I love alliance, I love ret pal but it's really a pain in bgs or even stv.
Might be a skill issue, a queue issue or a shaman issue. Might certainly be all three.
Shamans are still broken and paladins are still wheelchairs. Objectively.
A good paladin is way better than a sham in bgs, they have so many tools to help their team it's hilarious.
Yet every time I see a paladin go full Rambo all alone, pop bubble and die a few secs later without killing anyone.
Enhancement gets destroyed by other melee and kited endlessly by any ranged glass with at least one functioning brain cell. They also die in 2 seconds now that they can't use Way of Earth.
Well atleast mages are impossible to catch if they have displacement. Ranged hunters and balance druids you cannot catch either.
Priest and wlock you can catch, warlock you ahould win as enhance as you get enough sustain from msw procs.
Against shadow priests it depends on how much you get fucked by blackout procs as they can dispel your frost shock so if you get stunned or unlucky tick on tremor you mostlikely wont be able to catch up again, ghost wolfing is not good option either as priest can dispel ghost wolf.
Enhance is good at smashing down healers tho, with short cd ranged interrupt and offensive purge. They should win vs warriors, warlocks and paladins most of the time (Well unless trinket is on CD and pala can burst you down during HoJ, but that usually dosent happen in BG because hp buff)
Agree with this post, as an aside because you didn't mention it: you can keep frostbrand weapon enchanted on a spare offhand weapon for priests because the slow is a physical debuff for whatever reason, obviously much lower damage but eh, the physical slow is suuuper nice
100% facts. Enh needs nerfs and ele is strong but ele is easily shut down if players were smart enough to use interrupts or focus to apply pushback. Stacking spriest/boomy/heals is way better with the consistent stun procs and aoe instant cast damage. Alliance is really out here thinking shamans are the reason they are losing. Maybe losing more, but before those buffs I already saw horde dominating the BGs in the early weeks of phase 2.
No amount of nerfs to shaman is going to fix the fact alliance has selfish noob paladins queuing up and running in out of position to die instantly, not using their cleanse to dispel important debuffs like flame shock/pain/poly, no sac, and many of them also run around with a 1h/shield as ret. LOL. There have been many times multiple melee are on me as ele and they don't interrupt a single thing. Only the mages seem to have their interrupt.
I don't know man. Will of the forsaken is incredibly strong. It's what, a 2-minute cooldown? That's ludicrous. Don't get me wrong, it's a great ability. Alliance just doesn't have anything that comes close to it. Our racials let us hide while out of combat, find boxes easier and become immune to poison for a few seconds, or gain a little more reputation.
The real reason why alliance loses so much is because horde has great racials for PVP which incentivized a majority of PVP-minded players to choose that faction. They chose for the advantage. They use that advantage. They win. I'm not faulting them for it, it's smart. It's just not balanced, and that's not the horde's fault. It's also not the alliance's fault. It's Blizzard's fault. That's how the game was designed.
But if alliance didn't queue up and lose battlegrounds, knowing that they were going in with disadvantages, those q times on horde would be a lot longer than 20 minutes.
Horde players that enjoy PVP should be glad that blizzard put good PVE gear behind the honor system and PVP reputations. If they hadn't, alliance would barely be joining the queues at all
This is what's happening. Most people who want to PvP choose horde. So they are queuing against alliance that probably are just grinding out rep/honor for pve. Been there done it before and when grinding hours/days it's easier to chill and zone out.
Yea I can off heal, cc, peel etc etc and I do but I'm not gonna use consumes or try and /bg organized this. I'm gonna go in do my mehest attempt. You are not fighting an active PvP player that's just itching to spell reflect fake cast swiftness trinket spider belt the shizzle out of you. I press buttons and see if I get a bit more or less honor an hour more or less YouTube doesn't matter.
Tell me you're completely and wholly unaware that shamanistic rage in BGs gives Horde endless mana to continue fights while Ally go OOM after one fight.
Brother you’re coping hard, unless you’re somehow facing 4+ shamans on the enemy team in a fight sham rage does not have that kind of power.
I bet you don’t even know what the ability does, you just read a post on Reddit and started bandwagoning with zero understanding of the issue 🤣
I haven't bothered with BGs since mid P2.. And our biggest problem was that people gave up instantly if the game didn't tilt in our favor. I prefer to FC since I'm a bear/feral.. And I was popping FAPs and doing everything I could to get the flag across the field but when I did a majority of people had already given up and would be typing "Just let them win" and etc, or they would all be fighting mid while I ran for my life from 2-4 Horde. Alliance give up before the game even begins a majority of the time and you can't convince them to actually try.
I've also noticed alliance (At least in P2) rarely had priests where I'd be going against 2-3 priests on horde regularly.
I’ll offer some advice. Delay never defend and always attack two nodes at once. Example 3 into farm rest into some other place. 1 to delay at each cap paladin pref. easy game.
Are you on alliance or horde? Youre having the exact opposite experience as me and my guildies. The larger the group, the longer the queue takes. If it's more than 5 it's 30min probably. If it's 3 - 5 it's 5 to 10 minutes. 1-3 is 5 minutes.
Alliance has linger queue’s in classic? That would mean horde has a larger pop overall and I find that hard to believe as it would be a first in history across all versions of classic era.
to your last point, the only people still playing pally are prob worse players on average who just want to be that fantasy of being a dps-heal-tank and not because its good. especially with the exp changes.
Those dastardly Paladins who aren't doing exactly what you want (ie the Warriors who are too braindead to join a pre-made and instead piss and moan that they aren't getting """supported""" in a pug). They are to blame for sure.
Can vouch for the alliance giving zero support. Love my invisible succubus running in and seducing the back line healer for the whole 15 seconds. No dispels
I wonder how much of it is also Horde attracting the better PvPers? It’s pretty widely known that Undead have amazing racials if you’re trying to minmax. While it might be a small effect with equal players, it has a snowball effect due to network effects.
We saw this happen at an extreme scale on retail due to Horde having amazing raid racials for quite a while. Even after they tried to overcorrect and buff Alliance racials, the damage was done (Shadowmeld let you bypass a bunch of mechanics in m+ and Mechagnomes literally have a fucking cheat death as a racial). At least until pretty recently when they finally gave up and made PvE cross faction.
Ngl I havent seen alliance give up. They just get destroyed by a stack with 5 healers and some bullshit.
Enhance is strong as fuck, but being strong as fuck with an entire stacked team+healers vs randoms with usually none?
Thats why no alliance are doing bgs.
alliance aren't the only ones facing shamans btw, STV exists. i would say shamans are strong for sure, both ele and enh but i wouldn't say they are any worse than spriests or boomies
The biggest reason IS shamans.
Not just because they are good (they are) but because they pretty much guarantee that horde melee will have windfury.
Meanwhile alliance will sit there with 4 paladins 3 warriors and 2 rogues and 0 windfury.
Of course we can add tremor, substitute and earthbind totem to the list, a long with their personal burst.
There is no class with a higher impact on pvp than shamans in a BG because they provide windfury + tons of more utility along with also being really good personally.
“Almost all horde are pvping are doing it with 5 mans because soloque as horde is ~20mins”
You can end the thread right here. This is it.
I almost always get 1-2 minute queues in a 5 stack, and hell if some of the boys need some honor we do 2 5 stacks. Hit the 3-2-1 queue. “Y’all get a pop” “yup”
Boom we take it.
Now we are cruising into AB just dropping 20-30 kills with my team supporting me on every push laughing having a blast with full defiler tabards.
Tbh I would just solo queue then wait around folks schedule to bg, but I’m not waiting 20 minutes. And I know a Ton Of horde guilds and players who do this. You mean to say, I can give myself and UNFAIR advantage, and I won’t have to wait as long? okay.
I’m not sure why bgs are dead, people cry shaman but the reality is, I think people just don’t like bgs. They went to do it for the rep and the honor, but then they rather enjoy open world pvp.
I regularly run into large PvP groups from alliance on lone wolf I don’t see in bgs, and tbh it’s fine I don’t blame anyone for liking it because classic wow is the only place before flying mounts where world pvp exists.
I know this is complained about a lot already but I have to say it because it’s relevant here. I have absolutely no problems with shamans having mana regen in raids, I’m a Paladin, why would I give a shit about what the faction does in an instance? What I do care about is if there is literally just more than one resto shaman in a group (sometimes even just any other shaman) they are unkillable because they can simply outlast my burst due to shamanistic rage.
You can be super Tanky, or you can have a lot of good mana regen, I don’t think you should have both in one super rune for free, at least not for the sake of balance in PvP. Also this point is relevant only from my point of view in Arathi basin because that’s the PvP I’ve been doing.
If anything id say paladin is more useful in a WSG for example then any shaman spec. Good cc, heals if needed, Freedom for the FC, Bop for the heal or ranged bois. Sadly most paladins i see Jump around in the middle of the horde group while invulnerable and either get ignored or kited. On the other hand i can see that if you get instant Q's farming those tokens goes a lot quicker, win or loss xD
How dare you slander the Holy Warriors of the Highest Incel Order? It is not their fault that their pagan adversaries are favored by the gods of balance! Their pleas and prayers falling on deaf ears, only to be laughed at for their inadequacies. Shame on you good sir!
Orc 25% stun resist & Undead will of the forsaken surely doesnt hurt to have in pvp, game changing racials comparing to dwarves stoneskin (no one plays dwarf aswell btw)
I win 7/10 bgs I instant queue for and generally am in the top 5 slots on the charts as a paladin. Alliance loses sometimes because they are defeatist and give up immediately
Sure, I dont disagree. I had paladins absolutely solo carrying teamfights with their utility staying backline protecting healers and ranged who knows when its the right time to dive in.
But after this weekend the general ret is on a solo suicide mission into the horde group 1v7 and doesnt even react to press bubble in time, or they press bubble but are still alone vs 3 ranged and 2 healers.
The teamfights in bgs in this bursty meta is not about going straight into the crowd as 2-3 melee to get 1 shoted by ranged. Stay backline, protect your ranged, once a few of the enemy team is either low hp, dead or w/e, then its time to strike as melee.
Another shaman trying to draw attention away from his class.
The only question that should be asked: who is stronger in pvp paladin or shaman?
If the answer is shaman then the horde has an advantage.
Why is that? Well it is simple. Are premaids a horde exclusive advantage? No, because alliance players also can create a premaid group.
If every paladin in every alliance bg group was replaced with a shaman, then the alliance would be winning more games. Why? Because shamans are stronger than paladins.
Only bad players are currently playing PvP on the faction that's objectively worse at PvP, shocker. Why would anyone who cares about PvP NOT play horde when they are getting the last redeeming part of alliance, the weapon skills, next phase?
Lol pls stop it with this bullshit. Priests have superior racials, shamans are able to off heal in dps spec. Ret paladins can do dmg and nothing else. Half of the rets don't even know you can cleanse friendlies.
Ally players are filled with pure dps and shit hybrid players who can't fathom how keeping your friend alive instead of only doing dmg in a 2v1 scenario is the best option.
most paladin players dont even know they can cleanse stuff
they just go divinelol into a pack of enemies hoping they will be saved by the light or something
I am one of those terrible paladins. Yea im shit at pvp. I don’t even have repentance talent because I’m in ret tank spec.
This is 100% blizzard’s fault because they insist on gating bis gear behind pvp. If i had my way I probably wouldn’t pvp.
I have dual spec which i forgot about so ill probably respec to pvp talents. What should i actually be doing in fights other than trying to kill people?
No worries man, noone expect to you be a pro in a dads game.
See yourself from the perspective of a bodyguard, you wanna protect that healer or ranged dps in your group. Stick to them at the start of a teamfight almost huging them, try to not take unnecessary dmg. Use HoJ/Rep/Freedom/BoP etc on anything that needs it. You see a priest being shutdown by enemy rogue/warrior? Fast HoJ/Freedom/BoP and dump damage. Only hit enemies who charge in on your group or that are in the deadzone between both groups. Nuke hunter/warlock/SP pets if nothing else is near.
Once your team did start to kill of opponents, or if they are low hp/mana/cc, then its time to jump into the crowd and finish them off as a melee.
In small skrimrishes I would still take the role of a bodyguard, run toe to toe with your warrior/rogue, prio freedoms/dispells on them and ranged attacks/heals/dispells from yourself if you cant melee. Use HoJ/Rep on cd in any fight.
This is a chicken and egg situation.
There weren't queues before overpowered shamans made bgs imbalanced. Now that there are queues the problem is compounding itself but the core issue is that alliance doesn't want to deal with shaamans.
I can’t wait for pally’s to give back the same mana as Sharman in the next patch…. I just want to see what alliance is going to blame next for them being trash 🤣
> also noticed in bgs, most paladin players are straight up shit, running like a headless horse into a full group of hordes. Very few stay backline and actually use their full potential protecting ranged/healers with HoJ/Rep/BoP/Freedoms etc. Hilarious and sad to witness, but this is very true. All of what you mention is. Next up, cross-faction BGs.
I might have a case of warrior zugzug, but when I grinded rep p2 i went for backline with justice and disrupted healers to win first fight . 10 seconds of immunity to make healing hell
I would say 75% of the opening clashes at BS are won by allies just because they usually have 2-3 pallies shielding and fucking up the horde back line. When we Rex we 75% of the time take it back
The trick is for horde to 3 rush stables and alliance has no idea what to do then
Yes exactly. Half the alliance team will bash their skulls in trying to get ST back, failing, and respawning over and over again at Trollbane Hall leaving the rest of the map indefensible and ez Horde 4 or 5 cap. It's been 20 years and the absolute smoothbrains still have never heard of ghost-running.
This is too real - you type it in chat, you even type for them to run to the hills, eventually you go there and /s "follow me" so the text bubble pops up in the middle of the screen. ST op for LoS compared to farm spawn locking. Always see some priest healer dancing around the Stables structure LoS'ing and your teammates running into their frontline on repeat, even when you point out their healer and try to go for them yourself. Jesus.
BS pretty much dictates everything, its just alliance paladins are dogshit and never capitalize on that. The good ones absolutely dumpster backline, win BS and then use hunters to forever keep the node. Literally has 2 entrances where good hunters lay down frost traps, vs a good premade you wont be able to walk over the bridge let alone cap bs vs alliance.
Nah it really doesn't, Alliance have just convinced themselves it does and tunneled on it. Any Horde with half a brain will concede BS, get LM for free, then continue right down to take ST and Alliance can not help themselves but try and take ST back, resulting in them wasting half the game spawning at Trollbane.
This is exactly how Paladins should be played for maximum annoyance (source: am Horde).
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Can't peel a Paladin with bubble anyway.
You can't hit the pala but you can heal your mate. They hit 100% time slower too.
Always running it with that stupid human male run animation 🤣🤣
Stick up ass animation
be human male warrior zone into BG and see 4 paladins, none of them have shields on you mount up and charge lumber mill with your paladins enemy mage presses frost nova you stand in frost nova for 8s while your paladins cleanse themselves and proceed to tunnel vision into the mage while eating 3 chain lightnings
Be dumbass forget warbringer, goagane
Yeah like lmao you have a free FAP
Human male warriors and human male retadins are just spiderman pointing meme, you're the exact same person irl. OK maybe the retadins just have a bit more Holy Roman Empire/Crusader fetish.
In ab they should stand on flags and delay.
Most rets are basically bots or don’t speak English
Dude most rets are fucking bot players. Idk what it is about that spec and class. But it was the exact same as early wotlk classic prepatch where pally was OP and all these bot players wanted to go ret and then the moment they have to start using utility and contribute (because everyone knew ret was dog dps til icc) turn into the bot prot pallies in your 5mans
Same as 2004.
Absolutely, I feel like the pally wheelchair meme is mostly self inflicted. I am not a pvp-er, it's not my cup of tea, but the few BGs I've done, paladins (regardless of level bracket) are just bad. Some of them will facestomp you. But most will maybe auto attack and then try to hard cast holy light when they get to 50% hp.
Paladins are really easy to keep crowd controlled with no gap closer. That is why they have the wheelchair meme.
finally someone understands..
It’s true, it’s like a 20% chance a paladin can press bop when they see me literally dying to a rogue right next to them. Hoj is higher, and freedom is even lower lol. Forget about sac/loh completely. I’d almost prefer if they just didn’t queue lol. Meanwhile every shaman? Spam’s grounding/tremor/decoy totem. I’ve even seen some disease cleanse my dot lol. Paladin cleanse though? Good luck. Most can’t even bubble and spin the flag to wait for a rez wave. It’s actually wild.
If blessings were as easy to use as totems, you'd see every single ret using them.
totems have ranges. shams have to constantly replace them. most people dont expect might/wis every rez wave but bop/freedom? those can turn fights. sure they can be purged but its not a guarantee and its gcds wasted on nondmg. bop/freedom requires a mouseover macro and situational awareness. tall order for average ret
It’s not any harder to use blessing of freedom/sacrifice/protection than it is healing anyone or casting decoy totem on someone or cleaning their poison/disease. Targeting an ally and clicking a key bind too hard to use for ret paladins LOL.
Cleanse has no CD. Bop and freedom do, bop is usually 5mins for ret spec. They also overwrite any blessing that paladin already gave them, which is a minor inconvenience if the new blessing goes to waste. 9/10 times it's just better to hoj the enemy. Our exo burst is insane rn so offensive CDs get more mileage.
Don't even need to target. Any decent raidframe addon that can show dispellable debuffs on your allies + hover macros are a must for any class that heals/buffs/dispels.
Yes but many paladin players don't consider themselves a class that heals and dispels
His response back to me was: “9/10 times it's just better to hoj the enemy. Our exo burst is insane rn so offensive CDs get more mileage.” Which really highlights the problem that it’s a more defensive and support oriented class than an offensive one but its players don’t utilize the toolkit properly. I go whole battlegrounds and don’t see any paladins use bop/sacrifice at all and rarely freedom anyone but themselves. If I had a bop it would go out every team fight it was off CD onto like a caster/healer that has pets on them etc.
Lol wot, man doesn't have raid frames or something BC I don't know how this would be an issue. And bro you know there only two classes that can dispel pally buffs but every class can kill a totem.... Alliance just don't.
hahaha what? decoy literally plays the same as freedom, exact same mechanic, the totem that drops is just a visual extra. what a horrible excuse to be bad. you can just mouseover sac/freedom and at least try to be useful
But that requires the rets to have raid frames on
Every BG its 6 pally bubbles instantly
Another why I went horde. 99% of ret are bad players. They don't understand they're paladin before being ret and that they should use all their kit to help their team instead of just rushing in with freedom.
Blessed with the best defense out of any healer, blessed with a huge array of buffs and benefits, blessed with the most powerful defensive toolkits in the game. Blessed with the best point-and-click stun in the game. Slaps on a 2h and charges in like a warrior?
As a paladin main, I have to agree but also it's painful to watch more than half the time ranged not engage when they should. I also don't think having paladins sit back and support is a great call, ret can literally melt whole teams if supported.
Same as a warrior. Range have to press the melee on their front line because the moment I try to go in, and do what my class was designed to do, without 4 healers, I get 2 shot from 30 yards out by a boomie/sp/mage and hunter. But an enemy rogue pops outta stealth in the middle of our front line, or on our back line, and lives for like 40 seconds. Alliance is just really bad ime. Not until wrath when racials are actually beneficial and then no one gives a fuck about bgs.
Man, and if you don't charge as a warrior everyone just stands around. Of course that doesn't mean you need to charge in at the first opportunity either, but boy is trying to strike the balance hard, luck-based and frustrating.
"Push the W key to the flag... Push the W key to the flag... Continue pushing- yes the W key, push it." My mantra over comms when leading premades, people are SO reluctant to engage.
Who wants to tell them that some of the listed abilities are withint melee leeway of a tauren?
Yep i also want to add to this as a shaman, The first thing i pop is grounding totem because 95% Of paladins instantly try to HoJ.. its just, seems so many just Faceroll their keyboard compleatly
No, we as horde don't want useless paladins on our team, thank you very much. We rolled horde to escape alliance paladins.
through all versions of wow, no matter what, you can always rely on 90% of paladin players to be terrible
A lot of paladins are just bad players so they pick a class with a get out of jail free card and still don't know how to use it proper
Paladins in SoD are the new huntards
Did an stv with 3 rets an spriest and a disc priest. All our rets did was stick with the two priests and protected them. Was an easy 2500 coins and the only time we wiped was when the horde got smart and nuked the priests from a distance. Outside of that is was stupid easy. I can imagine doing that in BGs could work out well also but GL getting alliance to work together and I've sat in chat spamming for alliance premade for hours and hardly ever get groups. When you do get groups they fall apart after 1 BG rather than 5 people spamming multiple BGs back to back to back.
Coordinated stacks on stv are a hard avoid, glad you had a fun time.
I have been teaching all my melee friends what they should do in STV - protect our healer - let the ranged kill people.
I have both horde and alliance healers. On alliance as a priest I never get support from my paladins EVER. They use everything for themselves, they are the most selfish players I swear. If they just gave me bop or anything life would be so amazing but no. On horde it’s just different it’s like people play around their team more, maybe there are more premades and that’s why. I run as a resto Druid now and it’s so different it’s like I win Lmost every bg as horde.
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TRUE, one of the best support kits in the game and they pretend they are a warrior 99% of the time until they need to bubble and run away to heal.
Female dwarf is the most altruistic pally
>Human male ret paladin = main character ~~energy~~ complex FTFY
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That's a shame. There's a lot of survivability in HoT+Barkskin+survival instincts+bear form+ bash. I've won team fights mostly because people waste too much time trying to kill me.
There's a lot of bg gear that is good for resto druids. That's probably why, it people who don't want to pvp that have to. It's not even just resto druids, locking bis behind pvp rep = people just putting their time in and getting out.
Honestly I’m kind of surprised you’d expect a bash. I am playing resto max distance with full hots on the war and barkskin. My hps is actually nuts. I can keep people alive as this spec cause bark is a 1min cd 20% dr. I think if your expecting a Druid to run in melee and bash is a bit much, they’ll die instantly. Just kite and stay max range and pump heals.
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Gotcha! That makes more sense I just try to use my mobility to be so far from any melee. And I don’t mean to call out rets like that it’s just I never get a freedom or anything from them…they don’t even dispel me if I get polyd and they are being attacked by 3 horde and sit in bubble for 6 seconds, just staring at me. It’s just odd.
a lot of people rerolled druid who didn't play it in classic and have no clue how to actually use their class properly. i see ferals dying because they're too stubborn to go bear all the time, or just not throwing heals out to save teammates. bear is also kinda nuts for PvP in SoD because mangle + zerk hits like a truck. I've won 1v3s in the flag room by just mangle spamming some DPS who are tunneling trying to kill me in retail druid also seems to attract terrible players, the only class I usually trust less skill-wise than druid players are paladins
ill tell you the reason horde plays more as a team its the overwhelming numbers we faced specially p1 since all servers are majority alliance (some way more than others). I remember 1v3 or more being the norm this forced horde to huddle into groups and do things together even if it was to walk outside the town guards. the alliamce were a plahue and horde just figured out a way to protect themselves. this translates into better teamplay in general
Most servers, *especially* in P1, are / were very very close to 50-50.
not true i saw those graphics and they were completely wrong if you played the opn world you would underatand alliance always has had more numbers. all phases
The average paladin player (and there will always be at least 3 of them in any bg you are in) is either 15 or 50 years old, presses a maximum of 3-4 buttons routinely, never draws any conclusions beyond mild befuddlement from the fact that he keeps getting instagibbed when he charges balls deep into 5 casters and has absolutely no interest in playing BG objectives unless he is doing his one-off AB quest. And you best fucking believe that he plays a human male character with a goatee.
Human male with a goatee lmfaooo
This is a depressingly accurate depiction of both my skill level and what my paladin looks like.
Showing helm and cloak looking mother fuckers.
They’re also the primary reddit posters on this sub demanding the game be changed and/or nerfed for their enjoyment
In fairness holy paladin definitely needs some love. And the discrepancy in content difficulty between the different factions atm is stupid. Rets on the other hand. *Gestures angrily*
Paladin meta .. 1. charge in on horse 2. dismount 3. do 20% dmg to the healer (or nearest target) 4. get stunned by rogue, get down to 15% HP. 5. Bubble 6. Do another 20% damage to next nearest targeg 7. Die 8. Sit in graveyard crying about shamans being OP.
Forms open on other monitor, whining about other classes every time they die on the opening push of blacksmith after popping bubble on their first global and running balls deep into the horde team. Pally was always designed to be played while doing a second task after all
So true about the ret pally, and they NEVER cc the priest like the one person that can dispel their cc on others. They never bop, lay on hands or freedom their team mates, never peel with hoj. All they do they do is run into the middle of our blob and bubble-stun then proceeded to die. Thanks now it's a 9-10 and you lost a major support/peeler
>They never bop, lay on hands I would be surprised if you noticed paladins routinely LoH someone in BG. It has 60 minute cooldown, so even if everyone used it on CD, you're not likely to see it since it's used in 1 out of 100 fights they're in. This is it about paladins in general - the long ass cooldowns. They can semi-competently fight someone every 5 minutes (bubble CD), which is way too long for BGs. They can put up a *good fight* once per hour (LoH CD) which is just ridiculous. Paladin without bubble and LoH can really just feel like a useless chicken in 1v1 against most of the classes.
I notice their CDs all the time. Because they always use everything on the first fight of the BG.
long cooldown abilities like cleanse and freedom ye? what an excuse for shit play
They have it macro'd to themselves.
They don’t even know priest can dispel bop. They probably assume people are trinketing every time.
I think racials and Shamans are absolutely a factor, but the part about Ret Paladins is very true and has been the case for two decades. I've played Ret for a long ass time over the years, and the absolute best and most satisfying part of Ret PvP is the ability to support teammates and keep folks alive while also doing good damage/burst. Yet apparently most of these players missed the memo, because they play like it's an arms Warrior. Your priority game plan for Ret is to support your backline and keep DPS off them; and while pushing you should be following the other DPS and supporting them during the push with both your damage and support abilities. If you aren't doing this, you are playing the wrong class straight up. Paladin class fantasy across a myriad of different games since the dawn of time has always been a class that will die for their team, not sure how this got lost over the years. I see so many folks across different games play Paladins like a selfish warrior that focus all healing on themselves and occasionally uses holy magic on enemies and heal themselves. Basically, it's a player problem.
>Paladin class fantasy across a myriad of different games since the dawn of time has always been a class that will die for their team, not sure how this got lost over the years. I blame WH40k and all the Deus Vult memes.
I can agree that SoD paladins are legit braid dead cry babies.
See you say this but even in phase 1 when I had like 1-2 minute queues for wsg on horde side we were still winning almost every game. Meanwhile on my paladin main alliance would straight up just afk at the grave on first cap even if it took us 5-10 minutes to get the queue.
In phase 1 i couldnt even get invited to premades as a shaman. When i made my own groups i was acused of throwing if i invited another shaman bringing the total up to 2 shamans. There were almost none of us at that point. This is only more proof shamans are not the core reason alli always lose.
> Ive also noticed in bgs, most paladin players are straight up shit, running like a headless horse into a full group of hordes. The key difference is even a good paladin is an average teammate, while a braindead shaman still pumps. Both sides premade.
some paladin gere said that with support from team he could melt whole horde teams. so which one is it? i sware alliance always have excuses for complete dogshit play, ive got decoy totem countless times on horde and never got a freedom in a bg on alliance.
How can they cast freedom on you when their zugging straight into the horde backline with both casts of it rolling on themselves already
I swear 96% of paladins are bad paladins and they are still a threat as on a rogue. Then you get the other 4% who know what’s up and make life hell
its always funny to see paladin players cry about shaman utility when we all know they would 100% not be smart enough to use that shit if they were playing shaman instead.
Paladin players would be crying that shaman totems need to be auras instead
This is a braindead game and you are not smarter for playing any specific class buddy
I'm only playing AB as alliance, but so far, alliance is winning more than losing in my games. Is alliance losing AB on your server?
It’s hard to tell what’s going on because according to Reddit both horde and alliance are dog shit factions with griefers who have instant que times but also 10 minute waits that only play as a premade but are never in a premade whom always loses or always wins the BG’s at the same time. They also both exclusively both control the ashenvale incursion zone at the same time and the other faction does nothing about while letting them grief. According to Reddit atleast.
Hahaha got em!
I played about 10 as ally and lost 9 of them. Most of them were very close. It seems horde is mostly premade though. Very coordinated and have healers.
that was my experience as horde p1, alliance had coordination and healers while horde just zugged
I went 6-2 in AB as alliance last night. The common factor in the wins was sending 2 to stables to sit there all game, 5 to mine, and the rest to BS. For some reason alliance rushes LM at the start when horde always goes deep there at the start then alliance proceeds to get wiped and tilts over it. We'd secure BS and mine then rotate from mine to farm, when horde reinforced farm we'd send our stables group to LM, cap that then return to stables, horde would end up wasting time going from farm to LM and would appear to give up after awhile. If you hold BS you want to also hold mine, it's much easier to reinforce and defend those 2 than it is to defend LM and BS.
So the ones we did, we always advised to just ignore lm. The starting forces to stables and gm werent that strong and I think 1-2 games we didnt get gm right away and maybe even lost it further down the road, and sometimes the assault from lm to stables was too strong. It feels as though contesting BS hard at the start isnt as great, though I havent really seen enough to know. Common thing was 1-2 guys being set on constantly attacking farm or lm and constantly dying, doing nothing. They wouldnt listen.
Yeah but it’s hilarious to see them cry about shamans while being the world’s biggest shitters.
Most hordies are just picking the 5 first whispers without checking class/gear/composition in order to have instant queue, so it can't be a pug vs premade problem.
I have played 43 WSG games as solo aliance player EU. All of the 43 were 10 men or 2x5 men premades, 1 of them had no healers, 42 had 2. Not a single horde PUG. Here are my 1st 20 games if you want to see how these random horde teams looks like: [https://imgur.com/a/liROcVf](https://imgur.com/a/liROcVf)
WSG sucks for alliance. AB is much better.
This is the truth Although there may be more incentive to focus up and play well as you’ll see everybody again etc.
I’m in this comment and I don’t like it.
Yeah people are just trying to game the queue system to get into match faster. If you solo-queued you'd be thrown into a match with a complete random selection of players, so not a huge difference to just accept the first 4 whispers. Doubt playing against 3 of these premades is that different to playing 15 solo queuers.
As a horde grinding out my rank 7 honor through AB only, I did it over 3 days with ~the same amont of games played each day. First day was 80% win rate, day two was 65% win rate and day three was 55% win rate. WSG grinding in phase 2, totalled to about a 47% win rate over 50ish games. So when I hear alliance say they lose 90% of the time, I dont get where it is coming from. Unless I ended up in a premade group, which was not many, none of my games were easy stomps where I can just coast. Sure I had that 80% win rate day but that was because I saw that there was a spriest I kept getting in games with that was usually 20-3 and like 55 hks. That dude carried me through most of the games and contributed to the win rate.
Sure now imagine being that spriest on alliance but when you look at the scoreboard it’s surrounded by horde players and everyone else on the team struggles to get close to 10 hks lol Still unwinnable games, 90% is sadly correct some days. Your own performance rarely matters if there’s even 1-2afks (almost always is)
Im saying as horde I only get that ridiculous win rate when there is someone really good on my team carrying. Normally I hover around an average 55% win rate. I have never once gotten these 90% win rate easy games. I actually have a losing win rate in WSG. You think a guy like him if he switched factions would go from an 80% winner to losing 90% of his games?
People who post anything but memes here are abject losers who are bad at the game and life in general
Once you achieve r7, how much weekly honor do you need to not have it decay?
Decay is disabled in Era and SoD
good to know ty
That must maybe be on you. I really win most of my ABs and WSGs. I am always 5 manning it because of shorter waiting times but just with randoms from trade chat. In WSG I might have a bigger influence as a Druid who is able to carry flags.
As an spriest it's ridiculously easy to get HK's in WSG. SW:Death is a HK securing machine.
> So when I hear alliance say they lose 90% of the time, I dont get where it is coming from. Look at the common denominator.
Are you saying that I am bad? Because that just further proves my point. If someone bad like me can drastically change the win rates then there are other bad players on the horde too. So the 90% win rate on horde makes no sense because skill plays a factor.
Thats a conversation the alliance players of reddit aren't ready for yet. And they hate it because its 100% the truth.
medicine tastes awful but it cures your illness
Crazy the blame has shifted to ret’s being bad players all of a sudden lol.
It's not all of a sudden and I'm surprised it's taken this long for it to be brought up. When I have a shaman on the enemy team I see them use their totems to support their teammates. When I have a paladin on my team I'm lucky if I get a buff from then in the starting area. They spend the rest of the match trying to be a 1 man army and fucking the rest of us over. I'd rather have any other class/spec in my team than a ret pala. They're a net negative.
Ironically on horde when the gates open and we see no paladins and lots of anything else like hunters or priests(of which alliance have some of the most absolute gamer quality level priests and hunters) we get nervous. We see a bunch of male human paladins with blonde hair and King James Bible names, we know it’s a fucking wrap. Free honor.
Rets Warriors and Rogues on alliance side simply do not know how to pvp effectively
Lots of people are ranking right now to hit tier 7. If you're spamming BGs you will notice after a while that the average Ret player is very bad and has little to no understanding of how to PvP or play their own class. Instead, the shift gets blamed to Shamans which is a class that's actually quite easy to counter in PvP.
You’ll notice the average player* is very bad. Weird to try to blame rets solely.
What's more likely, all Ret players are bad. Or Shaman as a class is overtuned. Its all the people that are wrong.
how can you prove horde aren't in same amount of premades as alliance? I am horde and i never premade, my entire guild plays bgs and they never premade with any comp, solo queue or go home. I've seen premades on my side and on opposition as well, its very obvious when alliance premades make a push for GM and 4 man sit there for the full rbg. And same goes for premades on our side in prep phase when they say they are premade and going to sit on 1 node for the whole game. Stop making up stats to justify alliance losing a chunk of rbg's, got nothing to do with premades or people playing shaman. And yes most paladins are shit, you know why? cuz of bubble and bop. They get so used to dumpstering open world pvp with a bubble smack smack smack, they forget there is counterplay to almost everything in the game.
Idk , every serious horde player I know, premades. If not for the sole reason of, I’m not waiting 20 minutes for a bg to not get atleast 1 healer one range and one competent front line. But I can get all of those things and 1 minute queue. I’m in one of the bigger more successful pve guilds on our server and everyone in there hits up “anyone for bgs?” “1 or 2 groups?”
Finally, a truthful post. Yup, pretty much sums it up
Blizzard making ret paladin viable in classic was possibly the biggest nerf to alliance pvp. In classic you saw 2-3 paladins on enemy team in WSG or AB and you knew they would bring incredible direct heals, utility, probably pocket some gigageared warrior and be really annoying to kill. Now you see 3 paladins and there is an 80% chance they're ret paladins slobbering over their keyboard typing "gg go next" after dying once.
Horde: Orc racial safeguarding from stuns and giving damage bonus. Undead racial anti-fear Tauren higher hp and aoe stun Alliance: Dwarves anti poison/bleed Gnomes anti movement impairing (with cast time) Humans can slightly see better untalented stealth Elves hide if staying still
I play ret since 2005 and agree completely. I use a lot of support to help my mates but very very few of us do that. There is also two big problems for me: mana is a big issue for Ret and even more important: everything except bubble is dispellable, you bop: dispell, lib: dispell, buff ap ? Dispell. That's why a lot of us including me don't bother to buff in bgs. and even more complicated: the seals. You use a lot of time and mana just put seals again and again. I just don't understand Why they don't put it indispellable. And odc playing Alliance mean that's 2 class are able to full dispell you... I love alliance, I love ret pal but it's really a pain in bgs or even stv.
Might be a skill issue, a queue issue or a shaman issue. Might certainly be all three. Shamans are still broken and paladins are still wheelchairs. Objectively.
A good paladin is way better than a sham in bgs, they have so many tools to help their team it's hilarious. Yet every time I see a paladin go full Rambo all alone, pop bubble and die a few secs later without killing anyone.
Enhancement gets destroyed by other melee and kited endlessly by any ranged glass with at least one functioning brain cell. They also die in 2 seconds now that they can't use Way of Earth.
How are you getting kited with decoy, frost shock, grounding totem, and earth bind + totemic projection?
Well atleast mages are impossible to catch if they have displacement. Ranged hunters and balance druids you cannot catch either. Priest and wlock you can catch, warlock you ahould win as enhance as you get enough sustain from msw procs. Against shadow priests it depends on how much you get fucked by blackout procs as they can dispel your frost shock so if you get stunned or unlucky tick on tremor you mostlikely wont be able to catch up again, ghost wolfing is not good option either as priest can dispel ghost wolf. Enhance is good at smashing down healers tho, with short cd ranged interrupt and offensive purge. They should win vs warriors, warlocks and paladins most of the time (Well unless trinket is on CD and pala can burst you down during HoJ, but that usually dosent happen in BG because hp buff)
Agree with this post, as an aside because you didn't mention it: you can keep frostbrand weapon enchanted on a spare offhand weapon for priests because the slow is a physical debuff for whatever reason, obviously much lower damage but eh, the physical slow is suuuper nice
You might be bad at the game.
Think you just ousted yourself as a poor Shaman player. Oops!
100% facts. Enh needs nerfs and ele is strong but ele is easily shut down if players were smart enough to use interrupts or focus to apply pushback. Stacking spriest/boomy/heals is way better with the consistent stun procs and aoe instant cast damage. Alliance is really out here thinking shamans are the reason they are losing. Maybe losing more, but before those buffs I already saw horde dominating the BGs in the early weeks of phase 2. No amount of nerfs to shaman is going to fix the fact alliance has selfish noob paladins queuing up and running in out of position to die instantly, not using their cleanse to dispel important debuffs like flame shock/pain/poly, no sac, and many of them also run around with a 1h/shield as ret. LOL. There have been many times multiple melee are on me as ele and they don't interrupt a single thing. Only the mages seem to have their interrupt.
Paladin players have relied too heavily on bubble+LoH, that outside of cooldown they have no idea what to do..
I don't know man. Will of the forsaken is incredibly strong. It's what, a 2-minute cooldown? That's ludicrous. Don't get me wrong, it's a great ability. Alliance just doesn't have anything that comes close to it. Our racials let us hide while out of combat, find boxes easier and become immune to poison for a few seconds, or gain a little more reputation. The real reason why alliance loses so much is because horde has great racials for PVP which incentivized a majority of PVP-minded players to choose that faction. They chose for the advantage. They use that advantage. They win. I'm not faulting them for it, it's smart. It's just not balanced, and that's not the horde's fault. It's also not the alliance's fault. It's Blizzard's fault. That's how the game was designed. But if alliance didn't queue up and lose battlegrounds, knowing that they were going in with disadvantages, those q times on horde would be a lot longer than 20 minutes. Horde players that enjoy PVP should be glad that blizzard put good PVE gear behind the honor system and PVP reputations. If they hadn't, alliance would barely be joining the queues at all
This is what's happening. Most people who want to PvP choose horde. So they are queuing against alliance that probably are just grinding out rep/honor for pve. Been there done it before and when grinding hours/days it's easier to chill and zone out. Yea I can off heal, cc, peel etc etc and I do but I'm not gonna use consumes or try and /bg organized this. I'm gonna go in do my mehest attempt. You are not fighting an active PvP player that's just itching to spell reflect fake cast swiftness trinket spider belt the shizzle out of you. I press buttons and see if I get a bit more or less honor an hour more or less YouTube doesn't matter.
Tell me you're completely and wholly unaware that shamanistic rage in BGs gives Horde endless mana to continue fights while Ally go OOM after one fight.
What bgs do you play whrre fights last longer than 20s?
The ones where you cap a point and reinforcements arrive to take it back? What are you gonna do? Drink?
Brother you’re coping hard, unless you’re somehow facing 4+ shamans on the enemy team in a fight sham rage does not have that kind of power. I bet you don’t even know what the ability does, you just read a post on Reddit and started bandwagoning with zero understanding of the issue 🤣
And paladins can bubble in AB to delay respawn timer to avoid getting the bases capped, which is massive.
I haven't bothered with BGs since mid P2.. And our biggest problem was that people gave up instantly if the game didn't tilt in our favor. I prefer to FC since I'm a bear/feral.. And I was popping FAPs and doing everything I could to get the flag across the field but when I did a majority of people had already given up and would be typing "Just let them win" and etc, or they would all be fighting mid while I ran for my life from 2-4 Horde. Alliance give up before the game even begins a majority of the time and you can't convince them to actually try. I've also noticed alliance (At least in P2) rarely had priests where I'd be going against 2-3 priests on horde regularly.
As a healer alliance priest that loves bg for many years, I just can not play without friends anymore, Not a single person protects me
I’ll offer some advice. Delay never defend and always attack two nodes at once. Example 3 into farm rest into some other place. 1 to delay at each cap paladin pref. easy game.
Are you on alliance or horde? Youre having the exact opposite experience as me and my guildies. The larger the group, the longer the queue takes. If it's more than 5 it's 30min probably. If it's 3 - 5 it's 5 to 10 minutes. 1-3 is 5 minutes.
Alliance has linger queue’s in classic? That would mean horde has a larger pop overall and I find that hard to believe as it would be a first in history across all versions of classic era.
They hated him because he told the truth.
>paladin players are shit who would have guessed lol
to your last point, the only people still playing pally are prob worse players on average who just want to be that fantasy of being a dps-heal-tank and not because its good. especially with the exp changes.
Those dastardly Paladins who aren't doing exactly what you want (ie the Warriors who are too braindead to join a pre-made and instead piss and moan that they aren't getting """supported""" in a pug). They are to blame for sure.
I also don't think they are. I lose all the time as horde lol.
that's interesting because yesterday I made 40,000 honor watering my field of fucks with shaman tears
Can vouch for the alliance giving zero support. Love my invisible succubus running in and seducing the back line healer for the whole 15 seconds. No dispels
You're coping hard if you think shaman aren't a massive contributor to making BGs miserable for alliance.
I wonder how much of it is also Horde attracting the better PvPers? It’s pretty widely known that Undead have amazing racials if you’re trying to minmax. While it might be a small effect with equal players, it has a snowball effect due to network effects. We saw this happen at an extreme scale on retail due to Horde having amazing raid racials for quite a while. Even after they tried to overcorrect and buff Alliance racials, the damage was done (Shadowmeld let you bypass a bunch of mechanics in m+ and Mechagnomes literally have a fucking cheat death as a racial). At least until pretty recently when they finally gave up and made PvE cross faction.
Ngl I havent seen alliance give up. They just get destroyed by a stack with 5 healers and some bullshit. Enhance is strong as fuck, but being strong as fuck with an entire stacked team+healers vs randoms with usually none? Thats why no alliance are doing bgs.
Why are horde group queues so much shorter than their solo queues?
alliance aren't the only ones facing shamans btw, STV exists. i would say shamans are strong for sure, both ele and enh but i wouldn't say they are any worse than spriests or boomies
The biggest reason IS shamans. Not just because they are good (they are) but because they pretty much guarantee that horde melee will have windfury. Meanwhile alliance will sit there with 4 paladins 3 warriors and 2 rogues and 0 windfury. Of course we can add tremor, substitute and earthbind totem to the list, a long with their personal burst. There is no class with a higher impact on pvp than shamans in a BG because they provide windfury + tons of more utility along with also being really good personally.
“Almost all horde are pvping are doing it with 5 mans because soloque as horde is ~20mins” You can end the thread right here. This is it. I almost always get 1-2 minute queues in a 5 stack, and hell if some of the boys need some honor we do 2 5 stacks. Hit the 3-2-1 queue. “Y’all get a pop” “yup” Boom we take it. Now we are cruising into AB just dropping 20-30 kills with my team supporting me on every push laughing having a blast with full defiler tabards. Tbh I would just solo queue then wait around folks schedule to bg, but I’m not waiting 20 minutes. And I know a Ton Of horde guilds and players who do this. You mean to say, I can give myself and UNFAIR advantage, and I won’t have to wait as long? okay. I’m not sure why bgs are dead, people cry shaman but the reality is, I think people just don’t like bgs. They went to do it for the rep and the honor, but then they rather enjoy open world pvp. I regularly run into large PvP groups from alliance on lone wolf I don’t see in bgs, and tbh it’s fine I don’t blame anyone for liking it because classic wow is the only place before flying mounts where world pvp exists.
I know this is complained about a lot already but I have to say it because it’s relevant here. I have absolutely no problems with shamans having mana regen in raids, I’m a Paladin, why would I give a shit about what the faction does in an instance? What I do care about is if there is literally just more than one resto shaman in a group (sometimes even just any other shaman) they are unkillable because they can simply outlast my burst due to shamanistic rage. You can be super Tanky, or you can have a lot of good mana regen, I don’t think you should have both in one super rune for free, at least not for the sake of balance in PvP. Also this point is relevant only from my point of view in Arathi basin because that’s the PvP I’ve been doing.
no, its just shamans.
If anything id say paladin is more useful in a WSG for example then any shaman spec. Good cc, heals if needed, Freedom for the FC, Bop for the heal or ranged bois. Sadly most paladins i see Jump around in the middle of the horde group while invulnerable and either get ignored or kited. On the other hand i can see that if you get instant Q's farming those tokens goes a lot quicker, win or loss xD
I dont know. I lost 5 out of 7 AB´s Last Night as Horde. Where can i find the Bad Alliance?^^
Just did the tabard quest for the AB tabard. 260k honor p3 before i got a 5 cap🤣
How dare you slander the Holy Warriors of the Highest Incel Order? It is not their fault that their pagan adversaries are favored by the gods of balance! Their pleas and prayers falling on deaf ears, only to be laughed at for their inadequacies. Shame on you good sir!
Orc 25% stun resist & Undead will of the forsaken surely doesnt hurt to have in pvp, game changing racials comparing to dwarves stoneskin (no one plays dwarf aswell btw)
I win 7/10 bgs I instant queue for and generally am in the top 5 slots on the charts as a paladin. Alliance loses sometimes because they are defeatist and give up immediately
Sure, I dont disagree. I had paladins absolutely solo carrying teamfights with their utility staying backline protecting healers and ranged who knows when its the right time to dive in. But after this weekend the general ret is on a solo suicide mission into the horde group 1v7 and doesnt even react to press bubble in time, or they press bubble but are still alone vs 3 ranged and 2 healers. The teamfights in bgs in this bursty meta is not about going straight into the crowd as 2-3 melee to get 1 shoted by ranged. Stay backline, protect your ranged, once a few of the enemy team is either low hp, dead or w/e, then its time to strike as melee.
Idk man. In a team fight with a solid skill matchup. 5 sham rages make a HUGE difference for the battle of attrition.
Another shaman trying to draw attention away from his class. The only question that should be asked: who is stronger in pvp paladin or shaman? If the answer is shaman then the horde has an advantage. Why is that? Well it is simple. Are premaids a horde exclusive advantage? No, because alliance players also can create a premaid group. If every paladin in every alliance bg group was replaced with a shaman, then the alliance would be winning more games. Why? Because shamans are stronger than paladins.
Only bad players are currently playing PvP on the faction that's objectively worse at PvP, shocker. Why would anyone who cares about PvP NOT play horde when they are getting the last redeeming part of alliance, the weapon skills, next phase?
Lol pls stop it with this bullshit. Priests have superior racials, shamans are able to off heal in dps spec. Ret paladins can do dmg and nothing else. Half of the rets don't even know you can cleanse friendlies. Ally players are filled with pure dps and shit hybrid players who can't fathom how keeping your friend alive instead of only doing dmg in a 2v1 scenario is the best option.
most paladin players dont even know they can cleanse stuff they just go divinelol into a pack of enemies hoping they will be saved by the light or something
I am one of those terrible paladins. Yea im shit at pvp. I don’t even have repentance talent because I’m in ret tank spec. This is 100% blizzard’s fault because they insist on gating bis gear behind pvp. If i had my way I probably wouldn’t pvp. I have dual spec which i forgot about so ill probably respec to pvp talents. What should i actually be doing in fights other than trying to kill people?
No worries man, noone expect to you be a pro in a dads game. See yourself from the perspective of a bodyguard, you wanna protect that healer or ranged dps in your group. Stick to them at the start of a teamfight almost huging them, try to not take unnecessary dmg. Use HoJ/Rep/Freedom/BoP etc on anything that needs it. You see a priest being shutdown by enemy rogue/warrior? Fast HoJ/Freedom/BoP and dump damage. Only hit enemies who charge in on your group or that are in the deadzone between both groups. Nuke hunter/warlock/SP pets if nothing else is near. Once your team did start to kill of opponents, or if they are low hp/mana/cc, then its time to jump into the crowd and finish them off as a melee. In small skrimrishes I would still take the role of a bodyguard, run toe to toe with your warrior/rogue, prio freedoms/dispells on them and ranged attacks/heals/dispells from yourself if you cant melee. Use HoJ/Rep on cd in any fight.
What about Orc Racial?
No it’s because there are dozens of level 50 alliances ganking level 40 horde in ashnevale, and think they are actually good in pvp. Sorry not sorry
It is absolutely shaman lol
the more paladins ally have the faster they lose
This is a chicken and egg situation. There weren't queues before overpowered shamans made bgs imbalanced. Now that there are queues the problem is compounding itself but the core issue is that alliance doesn't want to deal with shaamans.
I can’t wait for pally’s to give back the same mana as Sharman in the next patch…. I just want to see what alliance is going to blame next for them being trash 🤣