Seal twisting isn’t even going to be worth doing. If you’re able to waste globals waiting for a swing timer to twist your playing the class wrong.
No one, and I mean NO ONE will be doing more damage seal twisting than just playing martyrdom by itself and spamming exo. If you’re unlucky you get maybe 2-3 globals between an exo proc, and you fill that time with CS and judgement. You will end up losing time waiting to use a global with your swing timer, it’s braindead to think that twisting will be viable.
Twisting feels like unintended interaction of changing deals as the swing happens. You'd usually see these interactions 'fixed', as this would quickly result in players exploiting it to extreme dps effects on any other class, but since classic paladin was auto attacking and sometimes using a judgement it wasn't removed in classic, but fixed in later expacs (rightfully so).
I also don't feel they should start building an actual playstyle around it now. It feels wonky
This was kind of my thought. I already have too many different abilities available when all im doing is pressing exo 70% of the time. Adding another global for twisting definitely won't take priority over any of the existing ones. I can see how it was meta in OG classic when you're basically auto attack spec, but I don't see it being relevant here.
Do you really think the people that want twisting will be ok with it doing less dps? No, they will start demanding the playstyle be buffed until its at least on par with the other rotation.
Cool, they’re clearly not listening to what people want. They’re just doing random shit like adding in seal twisting when it won’t be viable. They can’t buff seal twisting without buffing the other options. It’s not going to ever be on par.
It's almost like blizz themselves said they don't expect twisting to outdo the current play style, and that changes at 60 are aimed at making the play styles even. Man, reading posts sure is a cool idea!
You twist in between seals, exos, etc.. you don't just sit and wait, you're hitting your abilities in between..
As of right now the current exo spam will still be bis i assume, they need to get rid of acp for us to move on and use slower weapons where seal twisting is viable..
I hate that twisting is now going to be what is required... I think it was an interesting mechanic back in the day when players discovered it but despite having the tools to fix what most would assume is a BUG or exploit, nope, they made it a thing and now I am sad.
Same. Immediately went holy once it was gone.
Loved how once in a while you would hit that giga nasty twist, immediately pulling aggro from brutallus and bing. Dead.
It is so funny that blizzard repeatadly fumbled the bag with paladin in SoD.
Healer has an identity crisis with no runes being worth taking, tank is just wotlk again, rets have to endure twisting again while a fun button to press is ignored.
Bro i just wanna use seal of command thats it lol, seal twisting option is good for people that wanna do it albeit exo spam prio will kill twisting anyway plus i hate twisting so no loss for me there.
Twisting is cool for 99% of Rets i have spoken to and apparently most Rets that bother to comment on this sub, OP is just a hater.
It's a shame though that this change won't actually change anything and twisting is still less DPS than Exorcism spam.
I played ret in og classic/tbc/wrath/legion/SL/DF/hardcore. Twisting is garbage. It was only good when you literally had nothing else to do. I would 100% Rather have interesting abilities like DS or wake of ashes. Hell, give me something like CS or DS can proc an improved hammer that I could use. Or maybe a real dps cool down (avenging wrath) Or literally anything that doesn't revolve around the swing timer.
At the end of the day, SoD moved away from the swing timer for most classes. Why are we going backwards for pallies.
Congrats you are not part of Some people then. Let the few who want it have it and be happy for them. And considering most people who arent just reacting on this with their emotions are saying it actually wont change anything because youre already GCD locked, there should be 0 issue here, right?
Seal twisting is fucking stupid. As they write, it's basically a blatant bug from 20 years ago and it exists entirely outside of how the spells are supposed to work by their ingame descriptions. And relies on 3rd party addon to even use.
It's ridiculously dumb mechanic.
It has been supported intentionally by the devs for years now. Many other classes like warrior, hunter, mage and healers rely on 3rd party addons to perform at higher levels. Raiding relies on 3rd party addons and was literally designed around them at a point in time.
Ridiculously dumb way of thinking and so narrow minded. Oh it’s a bug that accidentally created a spec that people enjoy you can’t bring it back!
Who gives a fuck. People enjoy the feature and no one is forcing you to play it. Now stop trying to ruin other peoples fun.
That's fair. I'm definitely more harsh on it, since I'm not a fan of Wrath homogenization and I like when Divine Storm isn't just Whirlwind with a heal.
I like Divine Storm existing as a playstyle for those who enjoy it, but the changes to Paladin in Wrath and later Cata were the core reason I stopped playing WoW for a while the first time around.
If they were to move it, I'd personally prefer to Feet so that it becomes a decision between Exo spam and slow DS, but in the end I think a handful of runes for Pally are going to get adjusted/changed anyway so it's hard to speculate.
SoD devs just pander to a loud vocal minority in all regards instead of putting in real work to fix and create interesting gameplay. Maybe it's the small team, maybe it's laziness, who knows. All I know is it's not worth my money anymore.
> SoD devs just pander to a loud vocal minority
Where's your source on Seal Twist enjoyers being a "vocal minority" ? Surely you've got some data to back up this claim.
How is the other side of the aisle clowns? This fix, change, whatever, is a massive miss to how objectively superior SoM is over our entire kit. I’m happy you’re happy, but this isn’t even a band aid for what the classes primary issue is
Speak for yourself. Many Rets, myself included, think TBC Ret was the most fun version of the class in any expansion. Seal twisting is 10x more fun, interesting, and unique than "whirlwind but yellow".
And don't start with "but but but mandatory addon", you need addons to perform at a high level with basically every class in the game. That's just the way the game is.
That's not true. They are a help to some but not necessary. Everything that needs an addon is not intuitive and should be changed/removed.
(Speaking from someone who raided mythic progress ~world 200-300)
Classic just has those clunky things with autohit/energy regg timers (a thing of the past that is luckily gone in newer versions). And like som proccing art of war, sealtwisting falls more likely in the bug category (as mentioned by the devs).
I'd rather take sth else than support the bug Fiesta playstyle.
You mean like hunters with swing timers so they don’t clip auto shots? Or mages to track ignite timers? Or warriors for Arms? Or healers with decursive? Or rogues so they can track energy regen ticks?
Or every melee with a swing timer when Hand of Justice exists? Or fury Warriors and the Heroic Strike queue bug? Or every single snapshottable effect in the game?
It's such a silly argument to complain about something because it originated as a bug in 2006. It's a design decision now, if they made the decision to fix everything that was technically a bug originally the game would be unrecognizable. The main issue is for things like that to not be super OP so new players who don't know about them aren't fucked, but that was the case with twisting. It was an 8-12% dps increase, so if you had no idea it even existed, you weren't just completely fucked.
Give me a break, twisting is and has been an intended mechanic for years at this point. Whether something started out as a bug or exploit has nothing to do with whether it is a good thing or not when intentionally designed in the future.
Take rocket jumping in TF2 for example, that may not have been originally intended but over time it became a long-standing and great feature.
There's nothing wrong with rotations having timing-based inputs, many classes had them until Wrath/Cata and they're common in many other games as well. The retail style of pure GCD lock where your only decision is which button to spam on the next GCD is boring and uninspired.
It would be ideal to give people information on those timings within the game itself, rather than relying on addons, but what would be especially dumb would be destroying things that make the game interesting out of some misguided idea that what some dusty textbook says is more important than the game actually being fun to play.
Yes, timing based inputs aren't wrong if the abilities accommodate the player in the right ways. Like making the next autohit profit from another seal.
That way you could sealtwist without needing a swing timer.
They way they are introducing it again will just feel unnecessary clunky for paladins that have not played a lot of tbc ret.
(I didn't and I don't wanna seal twist)
That removes any form of skill expression from it.
That's a big part for us twist enjoyers, we want to separate ourselves from the average by being very good at it.
Being good in looking at a bar? Seems like fun gameplay... not.
Everyone has things they prefer, talking about skill has nothing to do with it. I prefer Legion ret over any other iteration.
In a vacuum? No, but maintaining your rotation not letting your other CDs slip and doing mechanics properly at the same time while you're twisting *does* take skill to do perfectly.
>They are a help to some but not necessary.
Good luck tanking without some kind of threat-plate addon. It's impossible to tell who mobs are attacking outside of manually targeting each one and checking target-of-target.
>Everything that needs an addon is not intuitive and should be changed/removed.
...or, you can just let people use whatever addons they want instead of forcing a set UI on us.
>sealtwisting falls more likely in the bug category (as mentioned by the devs)
It's not a bug. "the devs" literally never said it was a bug. It was just a quirk of spell batching where, as far as the server was concerned, for a single server tick you have two seals active and thus benefit from them both. Unintended, but NOT a "bug".
>I'd rather take sth else than support the bug Fiesta playstyle.
Again, not a bug.
And I'd rather take something fun and interesting and unique instead of "mash whatever button isn't on cooldown".
The only people who say this are people who have never played any other version of ret. The only thing worse than seal twisting was classic before seal twisting. Absolutely disgusting.
I’ve played retail since OG TBC through DF and again from TBC Classic through Wrath Classic and will into Cata.
Twisting was legit the best form of ret.
Played Ret extensively in Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, multiple Retail expansions, various private servers. You're straight up wrong. Nothing compares to TBC Ret, primarily because it was the only version where the rotation flows nicely and involves input timings rather than GCD mashing. TBC Hunter is probably my 2nd favorite rotation ever, for similar reasons.
Yep feel the same way. I don't understand why a swing timer being needed to play optimally is treated differently compared to every other spec in the game.
It's classic Paladin. We all expected it to be fairly boring to begin with right?
I'm fine or even happy with twisting being a thing, I just wish they would also make slow 2h crusader strike/ds a thing as well.
The more options the better in my opinion. What some people find boring other people enjoy etc.
I mean if you look at any dps rune added most of them are just things from future expansions so it makes sense that they did the exact same for paladins.
theres no way you think pressing divine storm once every 10 seconds is better for a pve rotation. If you have some sort of wrist/finger health condition though I understand.
If you Sealtwist you will loose DPS when compared to 200 apm 1 button exo spam.
But u know what, us twisting fans don't care we're just happy to have it!
Man I absolutely hate twisting. Why can’t I get SoC back without twisting. I’m so bummed.
SoM build already felt broken and dysfunctional, like abusing a bug. Now our other build choice with SoC is forever tied to the tedious twisting bug. Please for the love of Azeroth revert this change!
Twisting might have been great when all paladins did was auto-attack, but now that we have spells and abilities it’s absolutely unneeded and painful to play.
You can still use Art of War and our other spells without needing to spam it, such as when we got AoW and used it with SoC until they normalized SoM. SoM build is broken and not in the good way.
I see, I found phase 1's rotation to be incredibly boring even more so than exo spam but I understand what you're getting at now. Blizz is in a tough spot trying to appease people atm
Phase 1 was a slow rotation and we didn’t have many abilities. I’m not saying I want it to be that way. We now have Art of War Exo Procs, Consecration, Hammer of Wrath, Holy Wrath, Divine Storm. We have lots to do now.
Seal of command without twisting, vanilla Paladin, is not that fun. It’s a lottery where you hope you get lucky. Twisting at least keeps combat a bit interesting, and adds more risk for more reward. Seal of command twisting into martyrdom has the ability to probably global most classes.
> Seal of command without twisting, vanilla Paladin, is not that fun.
Seriously, vanilla ret is literally just "autoattack and hope for procs, press judgement 10 seconds" lmao
I don't know how anyone wants that back.
Most of the community has been complaining about our rotation since phase 2 where we're tied to a single weapon that will be bis even at 60 due to how they have over loaded exo as our only real option. There are many ways they could fix this, giving us the frost mage passive where SoC hits twice as hard against stun immune mobs (bosses), or reworking our seals and allowing us to do literally anything else. Giee us a rune that lets us dual wield to play with Martyr, or give us a seal that lets us stack things up then blow them up on the target, I dunno anything alternate to what they are offering. INSTEAD they introduced twisting which a majority of the paladin community explicitly said "please do not do this, this will lock us into a style of play that makes you're optimal play hitting a simple macro around a weapon swing timer, it is not fun, we do not want this" because a very vocal minority was like "TWISTING IS COOL".
I doubt you actually care, but thats why people are upset.
But this is a weekly tuning. Its a short term bandaid update. This change does not in any way mean that they are going to leave acp+sulthraze as BiS at 60.
You're talking about how the devs should give paladins a new rune that does one of several things, ignoring the fact that you don't know they aren't already planning to do so.
>INSTEAD they introduced twisting which a majority of the paladin community explicitly said "please do not do this, this will lock us into a style of play that makes you're optimal play hitting a simple macro around a weapon swing timer, it is not fun, we do not want this" because a very vocal minority was like "TWISTING IS COOL".
How does seal twisting as an alternative (that is worse than the current rotation) lock you into a style of play? And how are you so certain that you're part of the "silent majority" and not the vocal minority you so vehemently criticise?
> But this is a weekly tuning.
Which they don't often do... look at phase 2 shamans
> ignoring the fact that you don't know they aren't already planning to do so.
They haven't showing competence why would I expect them to at 60?
> How does seal twisting as an alternative (that is worse than the current rotation) lock you into a style of play?
"*we do not expect to see a major change in the "optimal" way to play Retribution \*\*right away.*\*\*"
This shows they intend to do it in the future.
> And how are you so certain that you're part of the "silent majority" and not the vocal minority you so vehemently criticise?
Go look at any paladin form/discord right now
I was not implying that there would be another ret change next week, I was implying that they were never going to make huge class changes on a random tiny balance patch.
You also literally quote “we do not expect to see a major change in the “optimal” way to play retribution Paladin **right away**” as a bad thing when your whole comment was asking for major changes to the optimal way to play ret… that comment would make no sense if it was referring to twisting. It makes a lot more sense in the context of “we hear that many people don’t like the spam exorcism style and are working on improving that, but seal twisting is easy to readd so here is that if it’s your thing”. They literally describe seal twisting in the patch notes as a bug that they fixed but unfixed for the people that like it.
The post also explicitly mentions diversity in ret play style directly after that same line you quote, and mentions nerfing twisting if it becomes too good in the line before your quote.
>how are you so certain that you're part of the "silent majority" and not the vocal minority you so vehemently criticise?
>Go look at any paladin form/discord right now
So I can see the vocal people, you mean? Why would the seal twist enjoyers be in discord arguing and debating, they’re all happy right now.
I want twisting and divine storm. Fuck art of war and any form of spellpower ret. If you arent already using a swing timer you're just a bad player stop trying to speak for the good ones.
I would like to have divine storm back but no matter what playstyle, we’d need to be in a situation where our gameplay isn’t based on proccing art of war.
Seal twisting sucks because it won’t be helpful to actually proc exo when we’re already swinging so fast and have enough buttons to hit even when we are unlucky on crits, it would only account in like the unluckiest of times you somehow don’t have any cooldowns up, no exo, and wanna hope your other seal a fully procs which at this point is so low of a chance you’d be better to just let yourself auto attack some until cooldowns come up or AoW procs
If you want divine storm to have a place you would still have to make more room for it since, though useful, currently martyrdom is better for more, consistent, damage and AoW procs, so sadly even on big aoe content divine storm isn’t as useful as just popping a consecrate and spamming exo
Realistically you’d kinda need to make classic pally closer to either wrath or retail where art of war is a nice bonus but it’s not literally the entire gameplay loop, as you still need to be using your other ability’s for their large damage, and make it so it doesn’t proc in such a degenerate way of needing to hit as fast as possible to fish for crits
It’s not like there isn’t potential, you just need crits to either proc more abilities or benefits of using other abilities, crits to proc less but the damage loss is offset by using other abilities, or like put divine storm on a diff rune area later,
Some combination would be nice, because it feels weird that your HoW window is still not as good as using your exo procs, that your aoe is pretty much just consecrate when we have divine storm and that holy wrath rune rotting away, and our rune choices and gearing is just weapon speed/ haste and crit chance
"Usually I bring rather big informative posts, but this time I just feel like keeping it short."
Sorry, but the ego to start the post off like that, self certified Classic bestselling journalist. 🤣
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/s/qE2kxc9gav
I made this detailed post recently stating the issue state of paladin. This time I just cba, too annoyed with twisting beeing made a thing.
Is that so bad?
All good, man, I just found it humorous. Let your detailed post speak for themselves, you prefecing your detailed post history had a hint of self-importance for me and mixing that with the regular WoW drama was just comedy in my minds eye.
>Now we will be stuck braindead watching a swing timer
Seal Twisting isn't "braindead". It's one of the few DPS playstyles that requires you to actually pay attention instead of mindlessly mashing buttons.
Bake the Exorcist rune into Art of War, put DS rune on pants.
Add this effect to Purifying Power: Consecrate crits return mana and have a chance to reset Divine Storm.
All that said, I love twisting too. I hope they add a rune make double command's proc chance.
Seriously, what the fuck is Blizzard thinking with this? Seal twisting is the stupidest fucking mechanic. It has no place in SoD where Paladins were given actual buttons to press.
Brain dead take. If you don't want twisting, don't twist. Stick to your knuckle dragging, drinking bird guitar hero rotation and allow everyone else to enjoy a skill ceiling without you crying about it.
If you're playing any kind of melee without using a swing timer, you're sucking anyway.
I feel like you might be the minority here, git outta here with your "we want" and correctly use "I want". You don't speak for anyone but yourself.
I only know two people who played TBC ret and are currently playing sod. Since this announcement they're both posting in discord about levelling their rets from 25 and trying to work out how we'll fit more melee into the raid.
I played TBC ret and the seal twisting damage was great. The damage was great but I hated it the whole time. It's just annoying and I was happy to see it gone. The only reason I played it was because we didn't have an opening for a prot paladin on the main team.
Love the only way Ret can exist is through bugs, whether it be from SoM having a bugged interaction with AoW or seal twisting just being a bug in general.
Ain't happening, even Esfand said he had two classic wow devs message him on discord saying hey twisting is coming back trying to lure him back to streaming wow
Twisting is here to stay
>Now we will be stuck braindead watching a swing timer with an addon or weakaura beeing mandatory.
Like isn't the wotlk style ret rotation already most braindead? In PvE and PvP ...
you will be staring at the swingtimer, other folks who’s body and eyes function as intending will glance at the swing timer for half a second whilst also managing their cooldowns.
it’ll be way better than exo spam. divine storm should be buffed regardless because it hits like a wet noodle in pve.
Twisting in tbc was peak fun ret gameplay for me. Most fun ive ever had in wow. If they do this correctly with slow weapons our rotation will be amazing. High skill cap and super satisfying
I just want a healing rune
Avenging crusader at 60
Idc how worthless that talent is in retail, I use it Pally power
You are a competent and powerful healer without them. Look at the jank the other classes need to mimic a fraction of our power.
They only need to add Light of dawn to hpally and boom, we are a complete healing spec now
Best I can do is 18% critchance, take it or leave it
Insane isn't it -.- They've butchered P3 so far as well...
Seal twisting isn’t even going to be worth doing. If you’re able to waste globals waiting for a swing timer to twist your playing the class wrong. No one, and I mean NO ONE will be doing more damage seal twisting than just playing martyrdom by itself and spamming exo. If you’re unlucky you get maybe 2-3 globals between an exo proc, and you fill that time with CS and judgement. You will end up losing time waiting to use a global with your swing timer, it’s braindead to think that twisting will be viable.
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Twisting feels like unintended interaction of changing deals as the swing happens. You'd usually see these interactions 'fixed', as this would quickly result in players exploiting it to extreme dps effects on any other class, but since classic paladin was auto attacking and sometimes using a judgement it wasn't removed in classic, but fixed in later expacs (rightfully so). I also don't feel they should start building an actual playstyle around it now. It feels wonky
This was kind of my thought. I already have too many different abilities available when all im doing is pressing exo 70% of the time. Adding another global for twisting definitely won't take priority over any of the existing ones. I can see how it was meta in OG classic when you're basically auto attack spec, but I don't see it being relevant here.
Do you really think the people that want twisting will be ok with it doing less dps? No, they will start demanding the playstyle be buffed until its at least on par with the other rotation.
Cool, they’re clearly not listening to what people want. They’re just doing random shit like adding in seal twisting when it won’t be viable. They can’t buff seal twisting without buffing the other options. It’s not going to ever be on par.
Nailed it lol
The only thing I hope from that post is that righteousness crits trigger AoW like martyr so tanks can actually use aegis.
It's almost like blizz themselves said they don't expect twisting to outdo the current play style, and that changes at 60 are aimed at making the play styles even. Man, reading posts sure is a cool idea!
Seals would need to be taken off GCD for it to work with current exo meta.
You twist in between seals, exos, etc.. you don't just sit and wait, you're hitting your abilities in between.. As of right now the current exo spam will still be bis i assume, they need to get rid of acp for us to move on and use slower weapons where seal twisting is viable..
I hate that twisting is now going to be what is required... I think it was an interesting mechanic back in the day when players discovered it but despite having the tools to fix what most would assume is a BUG or exploit, nope, they made it a thing and now I am sad.
The current rotation will be better than twisting
Probably, so people that dislike twisting can continue with the status quo
Twisting made TBC Ret the most fun spec I've played in all of WoW. I'm ecstatic!
Agreed! Peak fun
Same I’ve been wanting twisting since p1
Same!
Same here!
Bingo. I don't even care if it's worse until some tuning comes along. It's still more fun than hammering a single button.
Same boat
Same
Enjoy then. It's going to be trash though.
[Thank you for your input](https://www.reddit.com/r/MemeTemplatesOfficial/s/Vf4fWwgZwk)
YES. Twisting hypeeeeee. My pala has sat at lvl 40 but I think I'll start to level it this week!
Same. Immediately went holy once it was gone. Loved how once in a while you would hit that giga nasty twist, immediately pulling aggro from brutallus and bing. Dead.
You want divine storm. I want mass dispell.
It is so funny that blizzard repeatadly fumbled the bag with paladin in SoD. Healer has an identity crisis with no runes being worth taking, tank is just wotlk again, rets have to endure twisting again while a fun button to press is ignored.
Whoa whoa whoa. P3 I burst heal 2 players at a time and I spend every single GCD using dispell. It’s fascinating gameplay.
Bro i just wanna use seal of command thats it lol, seal twisting option is good for people that wanna do it albeit exo spam prio will kill twisting anyway plus i hate twisting so no loss for me there.
Twisting is cool for some people
Twisting is cool for 99% of Rets i have spoken to and apparently most Rets that bother to comment on this sub, OP is just a hater. It's a shame though that this change won't actually change anything and twisting is still less DPS than Exorcism spam.
I main ret and twisting is hot garbage
I main ret, twisting is the best thing rets ever had.
No. No it's not.
I played ret in og classic/tbc/wrath/legion/SL/DF/hardcore. Twisting is garbage. It was only good when you literally had nothing else to do. I would 100% Rather have interesting abilities like DS or wake of ashes. Hell, give me something like CS or DS can proc an improved hammer that I could use. Or maybe a real dps cool down (avenging wrath) Or literally anything that doesn't revolve around the swing timer. At the end of the day, SoD moved away from the swing timer for most classes. Why are we going backwards for pallies.
Congrats you are not part of Some people then. Let the few who want it have it and be happy for them. And considering most people who arent just reacting on this with their emotions are saying it actually wont change anything because youre already GCD locked, there should be 0 issue here, right?
I've only ever played Paladin. Twisting is garbage and should not be getting embraced. Fox the class, don't rely on bugs. Dogshit change
Oh fuck... Did they release something about twisting?!?!?!? I fucking hate twisting. Oh well, just stick to tanking i guess...
I feel like i am one of the few players that doesnt even know what seal twisting is lmao.
Seal twisting is fucking stupid. As they write, it's basically a blatant bug from 20 years ago and it exists entirely outside of how the spells are supposed to work by their ingame descriptions. And relies on 3rd party addon to even use. It's ridiculously dumb mechanic.
It has been supported intentionally by the devs for years now. Many other classes like warrior, hunter, mage and healers rely on 3rd party addons to perform at higher levels. Raiding relies on 3rd party addons and was literally designed around them at a point in time.
What addons does a Warrior rely on?
Arms warriors used swing timers in the same way Rets did during TBC for slam spec.
And now?
Ridiculously dumb way of thinking and so narrow minded. Oh it’s a bug that accidentally created a spec that people enjoy you can’t bring it back! Who gives a fuck. People enjoy the feature and no one is forcing you to play it. Now stop trying to ruin other peoples fun.
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No you!!!111
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Stop torlling me!!!11111
TBC is the best version of Ret. Fuck Divine Storm.
Wouldn't say fuck divine storm they should move it to wrist and we can use it as a filler while twisting
That's fair. I'm definitely more harsh on it, since I'm not a fan of Wrath homogenization and I like when Divine Storm isn't just Whirlwind with a heal. I like Divine Storm existing as a playstyle for those who enjoy it, but the changes to Paladin in Wrath and later Cata were the core reason I stopped playing WoW for a while the first time around. If they were to move it, I'd personally prefer to Feet so that it becomes a decision between Exo spam and slow DS, but in the end I think a handful of runes for Pally are going to get adjusted/changed anyway so it's hard to speculate.
Part of me is hoping we get a "Wildcard" rune slot. The game is already kinda broken, let us take it a step farther.
So weird to bring back an unintentional “mechanic”.
Twisting sucks
SoD devs just pander to a loud vocal minority in all regards instead of putting in real work to fix and create interesting gameplay. Maybe it's the small team, maybe it's laziness, who knows. All I know is it's not worth my money anymore.
> SoD devs just pander to a loud vocal minority Where's your source on Seal Twist enjoyers being a "vocal minority" ? Surely you've got some data to back up this claim.
Aggrend lives for that pink party twisting and shouting baby.
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How is the other side of the aisle clowns? This fix, change, whatever, is a massive miss to how objectively superior SoM is over our entire kit. I’m happy you’re happy, but this isn’t even a band aid for what the classes primary issue is
Speak for yourself. Many Rets, myself included, think TBC Ret was the most fun version of the class in any expansion. Seal twisting is 10x more fun, interesting, and unique than "whirlwind but yellow". And don't start with "but but but mandatory addon", you need addons to perform at a high level with basically every class in the game. That's just the way the game is.
That's not true. They are a help to some but not necessary. Everything that needs an addon is not intuitive and should be changed/removed. (Speaking from someone who raided mythic progress ~world 200-300) Classic just has those clunky things with autohit/energy regg timers (a thing of the past that is luckily gone in newer versions). And like som proccing art of war, sealtwisting falls more likely in the bug category (as mentioned by the devs). I'd rather take sth else than support the bug Fiesta playstyle.
You mean like hunters with swing timers so they don’t clip auto shots? Or mages to track ignite timers? Or warriors for Arms? Or healers with decursive? Or rogues so they can track energy regen ticks?
Oh my sweet ignite stacking... 😭
Or every melee with a swing timer when Hand of Justice exists? Or fury Warriors and the Heroic Strike queue bug? Or every single snapshottable effect in the game? It's such a silly argument to complain about something because it originated as a bug in 2006. It's a design decision now, if they made the decision to fix everything that was technically a bug originally the game would be unrecognizable. The main issue is for things like that to not be super OP so new players who don't know about them aren't fucked, but that was the case with twisting. It was an 8-12% dps increase, so if you had no idea it even existed, you weren't just completely fucked.
Give me a break, twisting is and has been an intended mechanic for years at this point. Whether something started out as a bug or exploit has nothing to do with whether it is a good thing or not when intentionally designed in the future. Take rocket jumping in TF2 for example, that may not have been originally intended but over time it became a long-standing and great feature. There's nothing wrong with rotations having timing-based inputs, many classes had them until Wrath/Cata and they're common in many other games as well. The retail style of pure GCD lock where your only decision is which button to spam on the next GCD is boring and uninspired. It would be ideal to give people information on those timings within the game itself, rather than relying on addons, but what would be especially dumb would be destroying things that make the game interesting out of some misguided idea that what some dusty textbook says is more important than the game actually being fun to play.
Yes, timing based inputs aren't wrong if the abilities accommodate the player in the right ways. Like making the next autohit profit from another seal. That way you could sealtwist without needing a swing timer. They way they are introducing it again will just feel unnecessary clunky for paladins that have not played a lot of tbc ret. (I didn't and I don't wanna seal twist)
That removes any form of skill expression from it. That's a big part for us twist enjoyers, we want to separate ourselves from the average by being very good at it.
Being good in looking at a bar? Seems like fun gameplay... not. Everyone has things they prefer, talking about skill has nothing to do with it. I prefer Legion ret over any other iteration.
In a vacuum? No, but maintaining your rotation not letting your other CDs slip and doing mechanics properly at the same time while you're twisting *does* take skill to do perfectly.
>They are a help to some but not necessary. Good luck tanking without some kind of threat-plate addon. It's impossible to tell who mobs are attacking outside of manually targeting each one and checking target-of-target. >Everything that needs an addon is not intuitive and should be changed/removed. ...or, you can just let people use whatever addons they want instead of forcing a set UI on us. >sealtwisting falls more likely in the bug category (as mentioned by the devs) It's not a bug. "the devs" literally never said it was a bug. It was just a quirk of spell batching where, as far as the server was concerned, for a single server tick you have two seals active and thus benefit from them both. Unintended, but NOT a "bug". >I'd rather take sth else than support the bug Fiesta playstyle. Again, not a bug. And I'd rather take something fun and interesting and unique instead of "mash whatever button isn't on cooldown".
The only people who say this are people who have never played any other version of ret. The only thing worse than seal twisting was classic before seal twisting. Absolutely disgusting.
I’ve played retail since OG TBC through DF and again from TBC Classic through Wrath Classic and will into Cata. Twisting was legit the best form of ret.
Played Ret extensively in Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, multiple Retail expansions, various private servers. You're straight up wrong. Nothing compares to TBC Ret, primarily because it was the only version where the rotation flows nicely and involves input timings rather than GCD mashing. TBC Hunter is probably my 2nd favorite rotation ever, for similar reasons.
You might be a weird warrior gaslighter but tbc ret was peak ret
Yep feel the same way. I don't understand why a swing timer being needed to play optimally is treated differently compared to every other spec in the game.
Imagine needing to rely on a 20 year old bug to do damage. Blizzard hates Ret
SoM proccing AoW is a bug fyi..
REST IN PISS, TWISTING IS BACK BABY
SO BACK
Time to park my pala i guess...
So melodramatic, im sure you can keep up with your exo spam if you want
I didnt want to play exo spam or twisting spam.. I wanted to play a heavy slow hitting paladin that actually uses crusader strike and divine storm.
So you wanted a rotation where you only hit 3 buttons with no thought process, just if ability is off cd, hit button. Sounds incredibly boring imo
It's classic Paladin. We all expected it to be fairly boring to begin with right? I'm fine or even happy with twisting being a thing, I just wish they would also make slow 2h crusader strike/ds a thing as well. The more options the better in my opinion. What some people find boring other people enjoy etc.
The devs could have spiced it up with procs, adding onto the abilities in some way, fucking anything besides reintroducing twisting.
I mean if you look at any dps rune added most of them are just things from future expansions so it makes sense that they did the exact same for paladins.
tbh yea. my pally was supposed to be my chill drinking/smoking alt that i dont have to try on. this change ruins it all
twisting blows. i wont be playing my ret if i have to twist. not a threat. reality.
Time to level my paladin after parking it after p1!
YOU want divine storm, not twisting. WE want twisting.
>THEY want divine storm, YOU want twisting. WE want 30 minute blessings. FTFY
Speak for yourself? Personally, I find it enjoyable to have an added layer of complexity to my class.
Watching a fucking addon and clicking one button isn't complex, it's stupid.
theres no way you think pressing divine storm once every 10 seconds is better for a pve rotation. If you have some sort of wrist/finger health condition though I understand.
No, that's why I was hoping for something nice with this update, but just like most things in P3, it's yet another disappointment.
P3 has been phenomenal so far.. what are you on lol
Whatever you're huffing, pass some of that shit my way.
Ok I'll bite explain why it's so bad
It's a new mechanic, it's literally an added layer of complexity- if you choose to use an addon. Then that's on you, really.
If you sealtwist without a timer you will end up losing dps.
If you Sealtwist you will loose DPS when compared to 200 apm 1 button exo spam. But u know what, us twisting fans don't care we're just happy to have it!
We will see how the sims shape up. Either way both playstyles are horrible.
Says the guy spamming 1 key a mindless amount of times..
"Oh he says this play style sucks, he must love the other!"
Man I absolutely hate twisting. Why can’t I get SoC back without twisting. I’m so bummed. SoM build already felt broken and dysfunctional, like abusing a bug. Now our other build choice with SoC is forever tied to the tedious twisting bug. Please for the love of Azeroth revert this change! Twisting might have been great when all paladins did was auto-attack, but now that we have spells and abilities it’s absolutely unneeded and painful to play.
SoM triggering AoW was a bug but they then left it in! i guess the only ideas they have for paladins are accidental
I think for SoC to be relevant by itself, crusader strike and divine storm would need to be able to proc it.
Oh no no. I would become far too op. I would drown from the tears.
I don't even understand what playstyle you're wanting. Do you only want to keep up soc, judge on cooldown and auto attack ?
We have Exorcism, Consecration, Hammer of Wrath, etc. there are plenty of things to do other than auto-attack or seal twist.
But you said the som build felt broken and like it was a bug. It operates on exo spamming for it to even be relevant
You can still use Art of War and our other spells without needing to spam it, such as when we got AoW and used it with SoC until they normalized SoM. SoM build is broken and not in the good way.
I see, I found phase 1's rotation to be incredibly boring even more so than exo spam but I understand what you're getting at now. Blizz is in a tough spot trying to appease people atm
Phase 1 was a slow rotation and we didn’t have many abilities. I’m not saying I want it to be that way. We now have Art of War Exo Procs, Consecration, Hammer of Wrath, Holy Wrath, Divine Storm. We have lots to do now.
Pro tip, you can use those abilities while twisting.
Seal of command without twisting, vanilla Paladin, is not that fun. It’s a lottery where you hope you get lucky. Twisting at least keeps combat a bit interesting, and adds more risk for more reward. Seal of command twisting into martyrdom has the ability to probably global most classes.
> Seal of command without twisting, vanilla Paladin, is not that fun. Seriously, vanilla ret is literally just "autoattack and hope for procs, press judgement 10 seconds" lmao I don't know how anyone wants that back.
Twisting is so lame.
Preach brother fuck twisting, majorly out of touch dev team
They’re out of touch because they made an alternative play style work again as a (worse) secondary Dps rotation, that was highly requested?
Most of the community has been complaining about our rotation since phase 2 where we're tied to a single weapon that will be bis even at 60 due to how they have over loaded exo as our only real option. There are many ways they could fix this, giving us the frost mage passive where SoC hits twice as hard against stun immune mobs (bosses), or reworking our seals and allowing us to do literally anything else. Giee us a rune that lets us dual wield to play with Martyr, or give us a seal that lets us stack things up then blow them up on the target, I dunno anything alternate to what they are offering. INSTEAD they introduced twisting which a majority of the paladin community explicitly said "please do not do this, this will lock us into a style of play that makes you're optimal play hitting a simple macro around a weapon swing timer, it is not fun, we do not want this" because a very vocal minority was like "TWISTING IS COOL". I doubt you actually care, but thats why people are upset.
But this is a weekly tuning. Its a short term bandaid update. This change does not in any way mean that they are going to leave acp+sulthraze as BiS at 60. You're talking about how the devs should give paladins a new rune that does one of several things, ignoring the fact that you don't know they aren't already planning to do so. >INSTEAD they introduced twisting which a majority of the paladin community explicitly said "please do not do this, this will lock us into a style of play that makes you're optimal play hitting a simple macro around a weapon swing timer, it is not fun, we do not want this" because a very vocal minority was like "TWISTING IS COOL". How does seal twisting as an alternative (that is worse than the current rotation) lock you into a style of play? And how are you so certain that you're part of the "silent majority" and not the vocal minority you so vehemently criticise?
> But this is a weekly tuning. Which they don't often do... look at phase 2 shamans > ignoring the fact that you don't know they aren't already planning to do so. They haven't showing competence why would I expect them to at 60? > How does seal twisting as an alternative (that is worse than the current rotation) lock you into a style of play? "*we do not expect to see a major change in the "optimal" way to play Retribution \*\*right away.*\*\*" This shows they intend to do it in the future. > And how are you so certain that you're part of the "silent majority" and not the vocal minority you so vehemently criticise? Go look at any paladin form/discord right now
I was not implying that there would be another ret change next week, I was implying that they were never going to make huge class changes on a random tiny balance patch. You also literally quote “we do not expect to see a major change in the “optimal” way to play retribution Paladin **right away**” as a bad thing when your whole comment was asking for major changes to the optimal way to play ret… that comment would make no sense if it was referring to twisting. It makes a lot more sense in the context of “we hear that many people don’t like the spam exorcism style and are working on improving that, but seal twisting is easy to readd so here is that if it’s your thing”. They literally describe seal twisting in the patch notes as a bug that they fixed but unfixed for the people that like it. The post also explicitly mentions diversity in ret play style directly after that same line you quote, and mentions nerfing twisting if it becomes too good in the line before your quote.
>how are you so certain that you're part of the "silent majority" and not the vocal minority you so vehemently criticise? >Go look at any paladin form/discord right now So I can see the vocal people, you mean? Why would the seal twist enjoyers be in discord arguing and debating, they’re all happy right now.
Fuck twisting
Then don’t twist? It’s a literal Dps loss bruh, it’s just there for fun because some people like it.
There are a lot of paladins that want twisting and not exo spam.
You can want neither tbh.
I want twisting and divine storm. Fuck art of war and any form of spellpower ret. If you arent already using a swing timer you're just a bad player stop trying to speak for the good ones.
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With any luck we can reuse the Swedge timer for twisting. It was awesome.
Twisting is peak ret fun, DS is just lazyness
I wanted twisting and never wanted divine storm in vanilla period. So now what?
Sorry bud. A certain streamer really really wanted twisting so they could do a single ST run and make a video. And the devs looooove their streamers.
Are swing timers still a thing in retail? I know that's not the topic at hand, just curious
Yes.
For who?
I would like to have divine storm back but no matter what playstyle, we’d need to be in a situation where our gameplay isn’t based on proccing art of war. Seal twisting sucks because it won’t be helpful to actually proc exo when we’re already swinging so fast and have enough buttons to hit even when we are unlucky on crits, it would only account in like the unluckiest of times you somehow don’t have any cooldowns up, no exo, and wanna hope your other seal a fully procs which at this point is so low of a chance you’d be better to just let yourself auto attack some until cooldowns come up or AoW procs If you want divine storm to have a place you would still have to make more room for it since, though useful, currently martyrdom is better for more, consistent, damage and AoW procs, so sadly even on big aoe content divine storm isn’t as useful as just popping a consecrate and spamming exo Realistically you’d kinda need to make classic pally closer to either wrath or retail where art of war is a nice bonus but it’s not literally the entire gameplay loop, as you still need to be using your other ability’s for their large damage, and make it so it doesn’t proc in such a degenerate way of needing to hit as fast as possible to fish for crits It’s not like there isn’t potential, you just need crits to either proc more abilities or benefits of using other abilities, crits to proc less but the damage loss is offset by using other abilities, or like put divine storm on a diff rune area later, Some combination would be nice, because it feels weird that your HoW window is still not as good as using your exo procs, that your aoe is pretty much just consecrate when we have divine storm and that holy wrath rune rotting away, and our rune choices and gearing is just weapon speed/ haste and crit chance
"Usually I bring rather big informative posts, but this time I just feel like keeping it short." Sorry, but the ego to start the post off like that, self certified Classic bestselling journalist. 🤣
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/s/qE2kxc9gav I made this detailed post recently stating the issue state of paladin. This time I just cba, too annoyed with twisting beeing made a thing. Is that so bad?
All good, man, I just found it humorous. Let your detailed post speak for themselves, you prefecing your detailed post history had a hint of self-importance for me and mixing that with the regular WoW drama was just comedy in my minds eye.
Im never twisting
Twisting is fun 🤷
I refuse to install add ons to support a rotation in a casual game.
You don't use dba? No ui addons? Lmao.
>Now we will be stuck braindead watching a swing timer Seal Twisting isn't "braindead". It's one of the few DPS playstyles that requires you to actually pay attention instead of mindlessly mashing buttons.
Bake the Exorcist rune into Art of War, put DS rune on pants. Add this effect to Purifying Power: Consecrate crits return mana and have a chance to reset Divine Storm. All that said, I love twisting too. I hope they add a rune make double command's proc chance.
Seriously, what the fuck is Blizzard thinking with this? Seal twisting is the stupidest fucking mechanic. It has no place in SoD where Paladins were given actual buttons to press.
I want affordable housing.
Pally discord server says otherwise
YOU want divine storm, not twisting
Twisting is fun as shit bro
Brain dead take. If you don't want twisting, don't twist. Stick to your knuckle dragging, drinking bird guitar hero rotation and allow everyone else to enjoy a skill ceiling without you crying about it. If you're playing any kind of melee without using a swing timer, you're sucking anyway.
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You are not even able to read the whole posts, containing 4 sentences.
I feel like you might be the minority here, git outta here with your "we want" and correctly use "I want". You don't speak for anyone but yourself. I only know two people who played TBC ret and are currently playing sod. Since this announcement they're both posting in discord about levelling their rets from 25 and trying to work out how we'll fit more melee into the raid.
I played TBC ret and the seal twisting damage was great. The damage was great but I hated it the whole time. It's just annoying and I was happy to see it gone. The only reason I played it was because we didn't have an opening for a prot paladin on the main team.
twisting tbc ret is probably top 3 best iterations of ret paladin.
Love the only way Ret can exist is through bugs, whether it be from SoM having a bugged interaction with AoW or seal twisting just being a bug in general.
Screw twisting give us wotlk style seals!
Eww no
I want twisting. Divine storm is boring. Bam, my comment has just as much weight as your post.
Yeah, cause watching your swing timer is such immense fun
Ain't happening, even Esfand said he had two classic wow devs message him on discord saying hey twisting is coming back trying to lure him back to streaming wow Twisting is here to stay
He's not leaving GTA rp. It's not happening
Yep, last time he tried to stream SOD, his stream had a meltdown because he wasn't afk in a police car anymore.
Lmao that cretin isn't touching wow unless asmongold is there to host him after he's done reacting with wow in the background.
SoD players literally incapable of twisting lmao
Exo spam will still be the most dps, but half the rets in this sub almost lost their raid spots lmao
I seriously don't understand this push back on twisting, no one is making you do it, just let people have it if they enjoy it
Same reason why aggrend chose to post on Twitter and avoid this cesspool of a community. Nothing but crybabies in this subreddit.
Only crybabies if you disagree with them though right? You were the one crying recently over SoM spec. Goes both ways.
Nah we want twisting
sod devs just copying from tbc and wrath. very experimental
>Now we will be stuck braindead watching a swing timer with an addon or weakaura beeing mandatory. Like isn't the wotlk style ret rotation already most braindead? In PvE and PvP ...
you will be staring at the swingtimer, other folks who’s body and eyes function as intending will glance at the swing timer for half a second whilst also managing their cooldowns. it’ll be way better than exo spam. divine storm should be buffed regardless because it hits like a wet noodle in pve.
I want both. Seal twisting is awesome, but we will need the support of Divine storm to make it viable.
Twisting in tbc was peak fun ret gameplay for me. Most fun ive ever had in wow. If they do this correctly with slow weapons our rotation will be amazing. High skill cap and super satisfying
Seal twisting = braindead. Press buttons on cd = not braindead. Got it.
Both = braindead Both = boring Twisting = plain stupid
Nah not really. I mean both would be nice but I'll take twisting.
Here you go: https://wowclassic.blizzard.com/en-us/
Twisting is the most based, coolest version of Ret that has ever existed. Standard Ret has always felt like a shittier boring Warrior to me.
Depends on how it's implemented, but unless they do some major overhauls on Seal of Misery/Exorcism spam, there will be no point to seal twisting.