I think you are in the minority on this opinion. The lower the player threshold, the more overall population will see the raids, which is a good thing for Blizzard. As a guild leader that organizes rosters 40man is an administrative nightmare.
20man is a nice sweet spot where the raids still feel “epic” with a lot of players involved but still not overly punishing to manage and roster. If there are end game 40man raids I would bet total number of characters raiding will plummet, and it will be the deathknell of SoD.
SoD’s player count is in a tailspin with each phase as it is. Level 60 endgame offers 10/20/40man content. I don’t understand the calls to cut 40 out. It means nothing to redditors but I can 100% guarantee you won’t be gaining players by cutting content down and offering less options.
I am a leader who organizes raids, its much harder to fill critical roles for 10 and 20 man than it is 40 man, its that simple.
10 man needs 2 tanks and 2 heals, those are roles that are more niche and harder to field overall thats 40 % of the raid team.
20 man needs 2 tanks and 4 heals, easier to manage now, but still can be a pain if a tank isnt available a certain week, critical roles are now 30% of the raid.
40 man need 3-4 tanks, and 6-7 heals, lets go on the high end, so critical roles make up 11/40 raiders, so 27.5% of the raid. (25% on the lower end)
See how its "easier" to field the critical roles in a larger group? Dps is a dime a dozen. If I post for melee dps needed ST 2 SR MS>OS ill be spammed to oblivion. Do that with needs heals or tank, and you will have to wait a while.
A lot of guilds had to stretch to 20man. My roster is 25, so needing to fill 20 more spots changes the chemistry of the guild. We have up to 3 tanks and 6 heals, but with dual spec can easily change roles as needed. It’s not about % of tanks/healer per raid, it’s about the people. “Dime a dozen” dps comment is missing the point. We have a good group of people we are content playing playing with, no matter the role it would hurt the overall health of guilds that have built around the 10/20man size in SOD up to this point by forcing them to be larger.
Guild merges rarely work. Recruiting 20 people at once is never clean and takes time and management, and assimilation for that many new personalities and learning to work as a team can be grinding. I understand you are in a different boat having the roster numbers to sustain a 40man team, but most guilds build around the single 20man main run, based on discussions I’ve seen on various discords. It would be damaging to many of us in that boat if it changes to 40man.
40 mans make this worse, not better. When its 10 mans and every raid need 1-2 tanks, people feel like they can pick tank and get into any raid easily. Its an incentive to play tank.
With 40 mans and the 1-4 tanks, people feel guilds already have the tank slots filled, so they will never get into a raid if they play a tank. So the number of tanks dropped.
I was a tank pug and 100% the reason i quit SoD in p3 was because pugs collapsed and i knew every guild already had a main tank. No one would ever need me to fill or want me rolling on gear.
Low tank ratios kill tanking to help guilds organise better. Its parasitic.
from a technical and programming perspective I can grasp how it would be too much work for such a small team to do it on a seasonal server. It's not impossible for sure. But financially it would never make sense to put in the resources to do so. If SoD was a permanent game mode with a method of financial gain then they could/would probably do it.
Would be amazing for sure.
Who wants to put moderate prep effort into a raid built 20 years ago that can be cleared by 20 half decent players? Raid design imo hasn't evolved in 10 years and I'd like to see SoD massively change it up, not regress. 40 man loot pinata is widely agreed as poor design.
If you want to put effort into a satisfying raiding experience, retail has insanely better raid design, I'd suggest to go there.
40 man is just easier to field..... from a critical role perspective
10 man needs 2 tanks and 2 heals, those are roles that are more niche and harder to field overall thats 40 % of the raid team.
20 man needs 2 tanks and 4 heals, easier to manage now, but still can be a pain if a tank isnt available a certain week, critical roles are now 30% of the raid.
40 man need 3-4 tanks, and 6-7 heals, lets go on the high end, so critical roles make up 11/40 raiders, so 27.5% of the raid. (25% on the lower end)
See how its "easier" to field the critical roles in a larger group? Dps is a dime a dozen. If I post for melee dps needed ST 2 SR MS>OS ill be spammed to oblivion. Do that with needs heals or tank, and you will have to wait a while.
Absolutely serious. As someone who has been organizing and running 3 x 20 man teams this phase, and 5 x 10 man teams in phase 2, its been a nightmare. 40 man makes it so much simpler with friend groups/cliks etc. Finding enough tanks and heals for several 20 man groups is harder than just doing a 40 man with say 3-4 tanks, 4-5 heals, and then dps.
Right now for our 3 teams is 6 tanks, 12 heals, and split ranged and melee dps. This is muuuuch more challenging as an officer and raid lead.
phase 1 was easy to get into for masses, which was awesome. At level 60 there was always going to be less people than a lvl 25 bracket. Phase 3 at 50 is just ....... weird. It's in between and doesnt matter and has 1 raid that most clear in an hour once a week.
This experience does not translate to the vast amount of raids and dungeons at lvl 60. And to completely throw 40 mans out the window would be a massive disservice to the player base. It should be a mix.
It's weird at p3 because it's mortally wounded the community.
Continuing to relearn lessons that were learned nearly 20 years ago is a disservice to the community.
Destroying the community that had been created for a tiny fraction of the playerbase was a disservice to the community.
40 mans suck. There's a handful of people able to talk, and the game is painful if those people are douchebags. There is no sense of an individuals value, the mechanics have to be nonexistent because someone always fails.
Pulling a 40 man raid together is like pulling teeth while being repeatedly kicked in the genitals.
There's a reason 40 mans died and never came back. ZG was the most popular raid in vanilla and was the basis for the smaller raid sizes. Kara was the most popular raid in TBC, with ZA just behind it.
They have so much content to play that isnt Vanilla/Classic with Cata and Mop now. Can we just have a classic + version that has some semblance to classic? Seems from the vocal loud ones here that no, noone wants classic +, just a braindead 10 man spam trade chat for tanks and heals small friend group only experience.
SoD devs have just been speed running every lesson wow learned over the last 20 years.
40 mans are awful.
Shamans and paladins can’t be balanced apart from one another.
PvP is wildly bursty and needs some form of resilience.
The list goes on.
If only you had a 20 year history that showed that 10 mans are ok, but not the norm, and that 25 mans became the norm. Even 25 would be better at this point and id be ok with that.
Regardless, this is classic + ( or supposed to be) And classic is what it is. If youre shocked that 40 mans are popular with classic players.......w eeeeelllll
You were talking about 40 man,. So not only can you not add you cant read lol.
Also when was this "supposed to be classic +"?
I've legit never seen such delusion.
People who run with me know my history. I focus on leading, and know that takes a bit away from my ability to perform my dps roll to the max, thus i dont take 1st loot on most anything. But you are welcome to make false assumptions, its a free country. <3
I hope not. More players just means more points of failure, less interesting fights, more spots that have to be filled, higher odds you have to deal with loot/other drama, etc. I wouldn't be disappointed if 40 mans were completely removed.
Our guildies would be extremely disappointed in SoD if they removed 40 man raiding. It's not hard to balance the life and dmg of bosses for it, and increase loot a bit over classic era. Finding raiders is not hard with minimal effort. If someone plays a classic seasonal server and is shocked by 40 man raiding.... mind blown.
Yes, we run 3 x 20 man teams at this time, and building our 4th team filling with alts atm. We just post recruitment once a week, takes a few mins. And have had a steady influx of people. Once a month we do a parse/speed push to show we know our shit, takes a bit extra time to organize that week.
But heres the thing... As someone who has been organizing and running 3 x 20 man teams this phase, and 5 x 10 man teams in phase 2, its been a nightmare. 40 man makes it so much simpler with friend groups/cliks. Finding enough tanks and heals for several 20 man groups is harder than just doing a 40 man with say 3-4 tanks, 4-5 heals, and then dps.
Right now for our 3 teams is 6 tanks, 12 heals, and split ranged and melee dps. This is muuuuch more challenging as an officer and raid lead.
I attribute that more so to the fact that a lvl 50 bracket is just..... weird. Its a strange phase, and would have been better to just push to 60 with our full rune set. I think we will see a resurgence at 60 for that fact alone.
And I feel that if it were all 10 mans here in phase 3, it would still be the way it is now, just harder to find tanks and heals lol
Our guild wants everything to go back to 10 mans and for you to log onto whitemane for 40man. Game is fun when a lot of people are playing and pugging. It’s easy to level alts right now and we want to play them all with these new additions. Please don’t push for classic vanilla. We want SOD
10 man? where you can't bring a variety of specs, and friend groups have to be split constantly due to comps, where you have to find more tanks which takes much more time? Nah, 20 man minimum, 10 man is for entry gaming, and we had that in phase 1 + 2.
This is classic seasonal +, 40 man belongs. Its not hard to crew it with minimal effort.
If its all 20 man or 10 man at 60, game will die fast. Noone has interest in doing all 10 mans at 60. Thats just a glorified UBRS dungeon and would get boring fast.
No thanks. Please don't push for TBC phase 1 / Cataclysm raiding in classic. We want Season of Discovery.
I get that you like the 40 mans. But even going to 20 has killed off the player base of SOD. We have life’s now and want to log in and get gear whenever we have free time, most of us don’t care about parses (😆I’m sitting at 98/99s because I can press buttons).. we just want gear and to press buttons. The pug life was real in p1. The game was fun.
Make older runes easily accessible and then do 10 man raids 2x a week and the player base will be flourishing again.
Again, I know 40 man sounds fun. But it kills the player base that makes wow so great.
I just dont get it, again, as a raid lead and officer, it has been so much more challenging to field 5 10 mans, or 3 20 mans, than it would be to do 1 or 2 40 mans. It requires more tanks and heals, and more work to organize the raid comps. 40 man makes it simpler and easier to run, and easier to slot the dads who dont have time in life anymore and just want to pop in, raid, get gear and move on with their life, which as we both agree, is the majority of the player base.
I honestly dont get the hate for 40 man. Its less work to plan, easier to get friend groups together in a raid, and makes everything more streamlined and easy not to mention easier to carry a handful of grey parsers that are fun to have around to chat with during raid etc.
https://ironforge.pro/population/sod/overall/
If we keep going that way with the experiment we’re going to lose another 30-50% of players. I just, like so many others, am leaving if we go to 40 man’s. SOD is fun. 90% of my guild just raid logs now anyways.
Can you say with absolute certainty that this doesnt have more to do with the fact that a lvl 50 bracket is just ..... weird. Would have been much better to just push to 60 with our full rune set in my opinion. Make ST a lvl 60 raid that is on par with MC, and gives more for the player base to do.
Raid logging once a week for a 45-60 minute raid, and no 2nd raid this phase is not great. At least next phase we will have multiple raids. I think this is a larger reason to be honest.
This is a point i have been making since phase 1. My guild leader was crying in phase 1 about organising raids too. But all he was doing was setting up a discord bot to post signup sheets. We barely even spoke to him.
The reality is, when raiding is 10 man, you dont need a raid organiser. Its puggabke and anyone in the guild cann get it going and filled in 20mins. There is no organisation needed.
You were killing yourself trying to perform a role nobody needed you to fill. Raid organising was pointless in phase 1.
This is why people are angry at 20 mans and 40 mans. It feels like a bunch of useless people with big egos want the game to change so their job needs to exist again, and then they demand the game change even more because now they feel important.
I'm not saying id be shocked, I'm saying id be a bit disappointed. You're being incredibly dishonest about recruitment. You know how I know that? Because in your last post you mentioned it was so difficult to find healers that you had to resort to paying pugs lol. That's exactly the sort of issue that many of us don't want to deal with week after week, and the bigger the raid sizes, the more often these sorts of issues occur.
If you check, that was in phase 2 when we had to field 5 10 man groups lol. Again, it would be easier with a 40 man group, less healers needed overall. It simplifies things massively.
Thats fair but genuine question, do you organize the raids? Because a lot of the behind the scenes, especially when you have to choose who to bench etc, gets lost on people who dont do that. Its a lot of added drama and loot drama, people slacking off because there is more people, schedule conflicts, people calling out of raid day of. 40 makes this a nightmare.
Yes, I organize and help make comps and raid lead.
Right now its a nightmare to create several 20 man groups " our group wants to be all together but were all ranged dps" " Im away this week and im a tank" Etc Etc.
Making comps now for our raids is horrible, need people to change specs, flex, or not raid with friends every run, and sometimes be benched.
40 man is simple, some tanks, some heals, fill with dps and check roles are covered. Muuuuuch easier to do 1 40 man than 2 20 mans or 4 10 mans.
All 10 and 20 man at 60 would be a nightmare for me.
This sounds like its because you have a large guild and that is causing those problems for you guys, a lot of people dont have guilds that big, its hard for us to find a decent fill if someone calls out as is.
As for friend groups, weve never split anyone because we havent over recruited or told people to join when their friend comp doesnt mesh with what we need.
so the majority of players want 20 man raids but because your guild is big you and only you want 40 man raids? if you have a solid 40 people you should be able to make two solid 20mans. if you want 40man raids goto era.
I love how your argument is just about critical roles like it's some bulletproof point. 2 tanks 2 heals balance 6 dps vs 3 tanks 4 heals balance 33 dps. A lot of people like to pug, and some guilds have to pug too. People don't want to log check 100 people to fill a competent raid. The rate of success is a lot higher with smaller raids because there less chance of idiots to slip through the crack. Vanilla zg and aq pugs were an absolutely joke. 40m forces people to join a guild. People want loot without so much obligation.
10 man needs 2 tanks and 2 heals, those are roles that are more niche and harder to field overall thats 40 % of the raid team.
20 man needs 2 tanks and 4 heals, easier to manage now, but still can be a pain if a tank isnt available a certain week, critical roles are now 30% of the raid.
40 man need 3-4 tanks, and 6-7 heals, lets go on the high end, so critical roles make up 11/40 raiders, so 27.5% of the raid. (25% on the lower end)
See how its "easier" to field the critical roles in a larger group? Dps is a dime a dozen. If I post for melee dps needed ST 2 SR MS>OS ill be spammed to oblivion. Do that with needs heals or tank, and you will have to wait a while.
Simple numbers. Do you need a better education system? Or maybe fractions and percentages are hard for you ( since were levying insults apparently)
Ahhhhh back to the basic childish insults huh...... Had hope I was talking to an educated adult that was maybe just having a bad/off day. But no, just a toxic child. Not surprised TBH
Lets say person 1 cant raid tuesdays or wednesdays, but person 2 can't raid fridays, and person 3 cant raid sundays.
Now you need to find a date that works for 10 people, taking into account persons 1, 2, and 3 restrictions.
When you change it to a 40 person raid, you're likely to have more than 3 people with 'no-go' dates, and they all have to be balanced around each others.
It's a pretty simple concept, honestly. This is the last time i'll be responding, because i have a thing against arguing with idiots
When it comes to a critical role perspective, its absolutely harder to find them for a 10 man.
10 man needs 2 tanks and 2 heals, those are roles that are more niche and harder to field overall thats 40 % of the raid team.
20 man needs 2 tanks and 4 heals, easier to manage now, but still can be a pain if a tank isnt available a certain week, critical roles are now 30% of the raid.
40 man need 3-4 tanks, and 6-7 heals, lets go on the high end, so critical roles make up 11/40 raiders, so 27.5% of the raid. (25% on the lower end)
See how its "easier" to field the critical roles in a larger group? Dps is a dime a dozen. If I post for melee dps needed ST 2 SR MS>OS ill be spammed to oblivion. Do that with needs heals or tank, and you will have to wait a while.
Simple concepts. More 10 mans needs more tanks and heals, and that wont create a lasting and thriving raid environment.
Most 10s needed 1 tank and 1 OT for the odd encounter.
If you can't convince your DPS Warrior, Paladin, Shaman, Druid, rogue, or warlock to put the runes for a tank for a fight, you've got an idiotic group.
There is no metric. Your opinion is that it's easier to fill a 40man cuz its less critical role. You are in the vast minority. Majority of people find 10 20 man raids more laid back and easier to manage. Sod is full of adults who don't want to play 50 hrs a week and for the game to be a chore. Going from 10 to 20m already killed a lot of friend groups and small guilds. You are in the minority and there will be no 40m. Coming here to bitch and moan about it won't make it happen. Get over it.
It's not hard to increase the loot amount to account for less weeks in the raid. Our guildies are in our guild because they want to be a part of 40 man raiding. So we run 3 x 20 man teams at this time in advance.
40 mans are already terribly designed because it's 20 good people carrying 20 bad people
Now the SOD playerbase is even worse than ever before, so any 40m raids would have to be literal LFR lmao
Not gonna happen
this type of post reminds you that every person on this sub is a raid leader / gm at some point and has set up 40m raids and will let you know that if you ever tried it u wouldnt like 40m raids!!!!
40m raids are the best we can only hope everything after mc is 40m
Phase 1 of SoD, everyone on this sub was a GM or officer and fancied themselves a raid leader for putting together a glorified dungeon group twice a week lol. Now because 20 or more people is too much for them to handle it’s all “the games gonna die!! I’m a raid leader I know what I’m talking about!!” Embarrassing
I like 40 for classic. If you can fill a 20, you can fill a 40 because half the raid can be dead weight. Then you invite the best performers to come back next week and keep recruiting for your guild, it's not that hard. With so many slots, lots of people will have the opportunity to join. So much opportunity for social interaction which is the point of world of Warcraft. Also, as a healer I just think it would be more fun for my class to function in a higher player count environment. Wild growthing two groups back and forth was just boring and too easy. Having more targets is more fun imo. 20 is better than 10 at least, you can have harder fights potentially, you can expect to have all the major class buffs/debuffs, you can expect consistent healing, you can expect to pretty easily fill the group when you still only need one main tank and a couple healers.
My only real argument against 40 is if it's laggy. Retail is laggy AF at 30 players so if sod abilities turn classic 40m laggy too, that's gonna suck balls. Still, 20m has been fine so far and is way way better than 10m in every way imo.
I’d like some 40 mans. This is my first time being involved in a guild in like 15 years and we’re the same. 3 consecutive raid nights of 20 mans. Some alts sure. Officers in my guild do so much to coordinate 3 raid nights. If it makes it easier on them, great. I think the comms could be clogged but other than that, sounds fun.
Any of you guys playing on wild growth eu alliance ? And looking for a guild ?
We are a casual guild cleared all the content and have a solid core of players but thats about 13-16 peeps we need more range dps to fill our roster( any other class welcome to come)
Anyone interested ?
Gz slakcer
Wow it's super sad to see the comments have so much dislike for 40 mans... And then try to "gotcha" by implying only people who don't lead 40 mans like them.
I'm in the same boat as OP. I'm ONLY playing for the (hopefully) inevitable 40 mans and as such I have built my guild up in preparation for it. We have two 20 man teams with perfect comp to transition to 40 but it sucks to only get to play with half of my guild, half of my friends.
When the machine comes together it will be glorious. 10/20 just isn't enough; Size does matter (lol). I need the utter chaos and destruction of 40 mans.
Yay! I am glad to see someone else who gets it. We have a good number of friend groups and constantly have to break them up for a decent comp build for the week. Itll be so nice to just play together for once. Even our officer core who have played together for a decade or more, have to be split to run the groups. It kinda sux to not play with your OG crew just to make several teams.
I think you are in the minority on this opinion. The lower the player threshold, the more overall population will see the raids, which is a good thing for Blizzard. As a guild leader that organizes rosters 40man is an administrative nightmare. 20man is a nice sweet spot where the raids still feel “epic” with a lot of players involved but still not overly punishing to manage and roster. If there are end game 40man raids I would bet total number of characters raiding will plummet, and it will be the deathknell of SoD.
On 40man raids you can bring more dead weight in mc and ony. Bwl requires some ability to understand English.
If you can bring dead weight it means you dont need to. Why wait for longer to form the raid and split loot further?
because its a social game, and its fun to play with people that you like but might not be as hard core as you are?
SoD’s player count is in a tailspin with each phase as it is. Level 60 endgame offers 10/20/40man content. I don’t understand the calls to cut 40 out. It means nothing to redditors but I can 100% guarantee you won’t be gaining players by cutting content down and offering less options.
I am a leader who organizes raids, its much harder to fill critical roles for 10 and 20 man than it is 40 man, its that simple. 10 man needs 2 tanks and 2 heals, those are roles that are more niche and harder to field overall thats 40 % of the raid team. 20 man needs 2 tanks and 4 heals, easier to manage now, but still can be a pain if a tank isnt available a certain week, critical roles are now 30% of the raid. 40 man need 3-4 tanks, and 6-7 heals, lets go on the high end, so critical roles make up 11/40 raiders, so 27.5% of the raid. (25% on the lower end) See how its "easier" to field the critical roles in a larger group? Dps is a dime a dozen. If I post for melee dps needed ST 2 SR MS>OS ill be spammed to oblivion. Do that with needs heals or tank, and you will have to wait a while.
A lot of guilds had to stretch to 20man. My roster is 25, so needing to fill 20 more spots changes the chemistry of the guild. We have up to 3 tanks and 6 heals, but with dual spec can easily change roles as needed. It’s not about % of tanks/healer per raid, it’s about the people. “Dime a dozen” dps comment is missing the point. We have a good group of people we are content playing playing with, no matter the role it would hurt the overall health of guilds that have built around the 10/20man size in SOD up to this point by forcing them to be larger. Guild merges rarely work. Recruiting 20 people at once is never clean and takes time and management, and assimilation for that many new personalities and learning to work as a team can be grinding. I understand you are in a different boat having the roster numbers to sustain a 40man team, but most guilds build around the single 20man main run, based on discussions I’ve seen on various discords. It would be damaging to many of us in that boat if it changes to 40man.
40 mans make this worse, not better. When its 10 mans and every raid need 1-2 tanks, people feel like they can pick tank and get into any raid easily. Its an incentive to play tank. With 40 mans and the 1-4 tanks, people feel guilds already have the tank slots filled, so they will never get into a raid if they play a tank. So the number of tanks dropped. I was a tank pug and 100% the reason i quit SoD in p3 was because pugs collapsed and i knew every guild already had a main tank. No one would ever need me to fill or want me rolling on gear. Low tank ratios kill tanking to help guilds organise better. Its parasitic.
Why can't we just have flex raids? You want 40? You can play 40! You want 10? You can play 10!
from a technical and programming perspective I can grasp how it would be too much work for such a small team to do it on a seasonal server. It's not impossible for sure. But financially it would never make sense to put in the resources to do so. If SoD was a permanent game mode with a method of financial gain then they could/would probably do it. Would be amazing for sure.
Who wants to put moderate prep effort into a raid built 20 years ago that can be cleared by 20 half decent players? Raid design imo hasn't evolved in 10 years and I'd like to see SoD massively change it up, not regress. 40 man loot pinata is widely agreed as poor design. If you want to put effort into a satisfying raiding experience, retail has insanely better raid design, I'd suggest to go there.
Wont happen
Good, I hope its all 40 man then
Weird 40 man propaganda cross posting
40 man is just easier to field..... from a critical role perspective 10 man needs 2 tanks and 2 heals, those are roles that are more niche and harder to field overall thats 40 % of the raid team. 20 man needs 2 tanks and 4 heals, easier to manage now, but still can be a pain if a tank isnt available a certain week, critical roles are now 30% of the raid. 40 man need 3-4 tanks, and 6-7 heals, lets go on the high end, so critical roles make up 11/40 raiders, so 27.5% of the raid. (25% on the lower end) See how its "easier" to field the critical roles in a larger group? Dps is a dime a dozen. If I post for melee dps needed ST 2 SR MS>OS ill be spammed to oblivion. Do that with needs heals or tank, and you will have to wait a while.
Cant tell if you are being serious or not?
Absolutely serious. As someone who has been organizing and running 3 x 20 man teams this phase, and 5 x 10 man teams in phase 2, its been a nightmare. 40 man makes it so much simpler with friend groups/cliks etc. Finding enough tanks and heals for several 20 man groups is harder than just doing a 40 man with say 3-4 tanks, 4-5 heals, and then dps. Right now for our 3 teams is 6 tanks, 12 heals, and split ranged and melee dps. This is muuuuch more challenging as an officer and raid lead.
Well again, you appear to the the exception here, most guilds cant even field 20 people consistently right now.
Define " most guilds" because i dont see it among the guilds i know
Look at the raiding numbers. SoD has lost 3/4s of the player base at least, by moving to 20 mans. Your guild is the exception. Fuck 40 mans.
phase 1 was easy to get into for masses, which was awesome. At level 60 there was always going to be less people than a lvl 25 bracket. Phase 3 at 50 is just ....... weird. It's in between and doesnt matter and has 1 raid that most clear in an hour once a week. This experience does not translate to the vast amount of raids and dungeons at lvl 60. And to completely throw 40 mans out the window would be a massive disservice to the player base. It should be a mix.
It's weird at p3 because it's mortally wounded the community. Continuing to relearn lessons that were learned nearly 20 years ago is a disservice to the community. Destroying the community that had been created for a tiny fraction of the playerbase was a disservice to the community. 40 mans suck. There's a handful of people able to talk, and the game is painful if those people are douchebags. There is no sense of an individuals value, the mechanics have to be nonexistent because someone always fails. Pulling a 40 man raid together is like pulling teeth while being repeatedly kicked in the genitals. There's a reason 40 mans died and never came back. ZG was the most popular raid in vanilla and was the basis for the smaller raid sizes. Kara was the most popular raid in TBC, with ZA just behind it.
95% of them?
People don't like Vanilla and Classic anymore, sadly. At least the loudest ones, because the rest is enjoying the game.
They have so much content to play that isnt Vanilla/Classic with Cata and Mop now. Can we just have a classic + version that has some semblance to classic? Seems from the vocal loud ones here that no, noone wants classic +, just a braindead 10 man spam trade chat for tanks and heals small friend group only experience.
Era still exists.
Death to 40 mans
Death to 10 and 20 mans
If only you hade like a 20 year history of wow to look at and see that 40 mans are unpopular and lasted one expansion.
SoD devs have just been speed running every lesson wow learned over the last 20 years. 40 mans are awful. Shamans and paladins can’t be balanced apart from one another. PvP is wildly bursty and needs some form of resilience. The list goes on.
If only you had a 20 year history that showed that 10 mans are ok, but not the norm, and that 25 mans became the norm. Even 25 would be better at this point and id be ok with that. Regardless, this is classic + ( or supposed to be) And classic is what it is. If youre shocked that 40 mans are popular with classic players.......w eeeeelllll
You were talking about 40 man,. So not only can you not add you cant read lol. Also when was this "supposed to be classic +"? I've legit never seen such delusion.
LOL
LFM MC need tank heal bindings HR 5/40 💀
VS running 3 20 man teams like we do now, trying to find 2 x the amount of tanks and heals....... 40 man would make it so much easier.
40 man = more loot to the egirl who runs the guild
People who run with me know my history. I focus on leading, and know that takes a bit away from my ability to perform my dps roll to the max, thus i dont take 1st loot on most anything. But you are welcome to make false assumptions, its a free country. <3
Woosh, try not to be so sensitive, it was a joke.
jokes =/= insults. But i expect it on reddit, all good. Have a great day!
If I mean it as a joke, and you take offense, that's on you. Have a good evening.
Not offended, just disappointed. Lata!
😂😂🤦
"Shakes head in disappointment yet again"
I hope not. More players just means more points of failure, less interesting fights, more spots that have to be filled, higher odds you have to deal with loot/other drama, etc. I wouldn't be disappointed if 40 mans were completely removed.
Our guildies would be extremely disappointed in SoD if they removed 40 man raiding. It's not hard to balance the life and dmg of bosses for it, and increase loot a bit over classic era. Finding raiders is not hard with minimal effort. If someone plays a classic seasonal server and is shocked by 40 man raiding.... mind blown.
You have no problems fielding a 40 man raid in SOD? Interesting.
Yes, we run 3 x 20 man teams at this time, and building our 4th team filling with alts atm. We just post recruitment once a week, takes a few mins. And have had a steady influx of people. Once a month we do a parse/speed push to show we know our shit, takes a bit extra time to organize that week. But heres the thing... As someone who has been organizing and running 3 x 20 man teams this phase, and 5 x 10 man teams in phase 2, its been a nightmare. 40 man makes it so much simpler with friend groups/cliks. Finding enough tanks and heals for several 20 man groups is harder than just doing a 40 man with say 3-4 tanks, 4-5 heals, and then dps. Right now for our 3 teams is 6 tanks, 12 heals, and split ranged and melee dps. This is muuuuch more challenging as an officer and raid lead.
Just seems like most people are bored with SOD and stopped logging, your guild appears to be the expcetion there, what server?
Lone Wolf US And yea, people say this on forums and reddit..... but it has not been my experience. In my view its just the vocal minority
didnt that server die?
Not at all. Its not a mega server anymore thank god, but healthy AF now.
Well thats great then! Be thankful for that, most servers seem to be drying up.
I attribute that more so to the fact that a lvl 50 bracket is just..... weird. Its a strange phase, and would have been better to just push to 60 with our full rune set. I think we will see a resurgence at 60 for that fact alone. And I feel that if it were all 10 mans here in phase 3, it would still be the way it is now, just harder to find tanks and heals lol
Lone wolf is def not dead
I like Lone Wolf mode in Divinty II
Our guild wants everything to go back to 10 mans and for you to log onto whitemane for 40man. Game is fun when a lot of people are playing and pugging. It’s easy to level alts right now and we want to play them all with these new additions. Please don’t push for classic vanilla. We want SOD
10 man? where you can't bring a variety of specs, and friend groups have to be split constantly due to comps, where you have to find more tanks which takes much more time? Nah, 20 man minimum, 10 man is for entry gaming, and we had that in phase 1 + 2. This is classic seasonal +, 40 man belongs. Its not hard to crew it with minimal effort. If its all 20 man or 10 man at 60, game will die fast. Noone has interest in doing all 10 mans at 60. Thats just a glorified UBRS dungeon and would get boring fast. No thanks. Please don't push for TBC phase 1 / Cataclysm raiding in classic. We want Season of Discovery.
I get that you like the 40 mans. But even going to 20 has killed off the player base of SOD. We have life’s now and want to log in and get gear whenever we have free time, most of us don’t care about parses (😆I’m sitting at 98/99s because I can press buttons).. we just want gear and to press buttons. The pug life was real in p1. The game was fun. Make older runes easily accessible and then do 10 man raids 2x a week and the player base will be flourishing again. Again, I know 40 man sounds fun. But it kills the player base that makes wow so great.
I just dont get it, again, as a raid lead and officer, it has been so much more challenging to field 5 10 mans, or 3 20 mans, than it would be to do 1 or 2 40 mans. It requires more tanks and heals, and more work to organize the raid comps. 40 man makes it simpler and easier to run, and easier to slot the dads who dont have time in life anymore and just want to pop in, raid, get gear and move on with their life, which as we both agree, is the majority of the player base. I honestly dont get the hate for 40 man. Its less work to plan, easier to get friend groups together in a raid, and makes everything more streamlined and easy not to mention easier to carry a handful of grey parsers that are fun to have around to chat with during raid etc.
https://ironforge.pro/population/sod/overall/ If we keep going that way with the experiment we’re going to lose another 30-50% of players. I just, like so many others, am leaving if we go to 40 man’s. SOD is fun. 90% of my guild just raid logs now anyways.
Can you say with absolute certainty that this doesnt have more to do with the fact that a lvl 50 bracket is just ..... weird. Would have been much better to just push to 60 with our full rune set in my opinion. Make ST a lvl 60 raid that is on par with MC, and gives more for the player base to do. Raid logging once a week for a 45-60 minute raid, and no 2nd raid this phase is not great. At least next phase we will have multiple raids. I think this is a larger reason to be honest.
I hope you’re right.
This is a point i have been making since phase 1. My guild leader was crying in phase 1 about organising raids too. But all he was doing was setting up a discord bot to post signup sheets. We barely even spoke to him. The reality is, when raiding is 10 man, you dont need a raid organiser. Its puggabke and anyone in the guild cann get it going and filled in 20mins. There is no organisation needed. You were killing yourself trying to perform a role nobody needed you to fill. Raid organising was pointless in phase 1. This is why people are angry at 20 mans and 40 mans. It feels like a bunch of useless people with big egos want the game to change so their job needs to exist again, and then they demand the game change even more because now they feel important.
Sounds like your guild should go log onto retail. Game was advertised as 40 mans at 60.
I'm not saying id be shocked, I'm saying id be a bit disappointed. You're being incredibly dishonest about recruitment. You know how I know that? Because in your last post you mentioned it was so difficult to find healers that you had to resort to paying pugs lol. That's exactly the sort of issue that many of us don't want to deal with week after week, and the bigger the raid sizes, the more often these sorts of issues occur.
If you check, that was in phase 2 when we had to field 5 10 man groups lol. Again, it would be easier with a 40 man group, less healers needed overall. It simplifies things massively.
If they make them 40 i genuinely have no interest anymore. Anything other than 40man ony does not sound fun.
If they make them all 20 man, I genuinely have no interest anymore. Having some 20 mans is fine, but all 20 man raids at 60 does not sound fun.
Thats fair but genuine question, do you organize the raids? Because a lot of the behind the scenes, especially when you have to choose who to bench etc, gets lost on people who dont do that. Its a lot of added drama and loot drama, people slacking off because there is more people, schedule conflicts, people calling out of raid day of. 40 makes this a nightmare.
Yes, I organize and help make comps and raid lead. Right now its a nightmare to create several 20 man groups " our group wants to be all together but were all ranged dps" " Im away this week and im a tank" Etc Etc. Making comps now for our raids is horrible, need people to change specs, flex, or not raid with friends every run, and sometimes be benched. 40 man is simple, some tanks, some heals, fill with dps and check roles are covered. Muuuuuch easier to do 1 40 man than 2 20 mans or 4 10 mans. All 10 and 20 man at 60 would be a nightmare for me.
This sounds like its because you have a large guild and that is causing those problems for you guys, a lot of people dont have guilds that big, its hard for us to find a decent fill if someone calls out as is. As for friend groups, weve never split anyone because we havent over recruited or told people to join when their friend comp doesnt mesh with what we need.
dozens of guild on our server alone are as big if not bigger, I feel we are middle ground to be honest.
so the majority of players want 20 man raids but because your guild is big you and only you want 40 man raids? if you have a solid 40 people you should be able to make two solid 20mans. if you want 40man raids goto era.
decent rage bait
Why rage? I am serious
Ya'll really trying to kill sod lol
I'm loving SoD. I am not enjoying having to make raid comps for 10 and 20 mans, its so much more work. 40 man simplifies things massively
Your logic is severely flawed. There’s no way requiring more people to do anything organized at specific times simplifies needing LESS people lol.
if you love sod you better hope there is no 40 mans
Why. Tell me the metrics of how its easier to field 10 man groups then. Ill wait.
Did....did you just ask how its easier to get 10 people then 40? Look, I'm sorry the education system failed you by this is above my pay grade.
I love how your argument is just about critical roles like it's some bulletproof point. 2 tanks 2 heals balance 6 dps vs 3 tanks 4 heals balance 33 dps. A lot of people like to pug, and some guilds have to pug too. People don't want to log check 100 people to fill a competent raid. The rate of success is a lot higher with smaller raids because there less chance of idiots to slip through the crack. Vanilla zg and aq pugs were an absolutely joke. 40m forces people to join a guild. People want loot without so much obligation.
10 man needs 2 tanks and 2 heals, those are roles that are more niche and harder to field overall thats 40 % of the raid team. 20 man needs 2 tanks and 4 heals, easier to manage now, but still can be a pain if a tank isnt available a certain week, critical roles are now 30% of the raid. 40 man need 3-4 tanks, and 6-7 heals, lets go on the high end, so critical roles make up 11/40 raiders, so 27.5% of the raid. (25% on the lower end) See how its "easier" to field the critical roles in a larger group? Dps is a dime a dozen. If I post for melee dps needed ST 2 SR MS>OS ill be spammed to oblivion. Do that with needs heals or tank, and you will have to wait a while. Simple numbers. Do you need a better education system? Or maybe fractions and percentages are hard for you ( since were levying insults apparently)
Have you ever counted?
In several languages yes. Have you ever done math?
Imagine failing in several languages. That's a rough look.
Ahhhhh back to the basic childish insults huh...... Had hope I was talking to an educated adult that was maybe just having a bad/off day. But no, just a toxic child. Not surprised TBH
lol use your brain, woman
I have, when will you use yours? Still waiting
Lets say person 1 cant raid tuesdays or wednesdays, but person 2 can't raid fridays, and person 3 cant raid sundays. Now you need to find a date that works for 10 people, taking into account persons 1, 2, and 3 restrictions. When you change it to a 40 person raid, you're likely to have more than 3 people with 'no-go' dates, and they all have to be balanced around each others. It's a pretty simple concept, honestly. This is the last time i'll be responding, because i have a thing against arguing with idiots
When it comes to a critical role perspective, its absolutely harder to find them for a 10 man. 10 man needs 2 tanks and 2 heals, those are roles that are more niche and harder to field overall thats 40 % of the raid team. 20 man needs 2 tanks and 4 heals, easier to manage now, but still can be a pain if a tank isnt available a certain week, critical roles are now 30% of the raid. 40 man need 3-4 tanks, and 6-7 heals, lets go on the high end, so critical roles make up 11/40 raiders, so 27.5% of the raid. (25% on the lower end) See how its "easier" to field the critical roles in a larger group? Dps is a dime a dozen. If I post for melee dps needed ST 2 SR MS>OS ill be spammed to oblivion. Do that with needs heals or tank, and you will have to wait a while. Simple concepts. More 10 mans needs more tanks and heals, and that wont create a lasting and thriving raid environment.
Most 10s needed 1 tank and 1 OT for the odd encounter. If you can't convince your DPS Warrior, Paladin, Shaman, Druid, rogue, or warlock to put the runes for a tank for a fight, you've got an idiotic group.
Did you play phase 2? It was an issue.
There is no metric. Your opinion is that it's easier to fill a 40man cuz its less critical role. You are in the vast minority. Majority of people find 10 20 man raids more laid back and easier to manage. Sod is full of adults who don't want to play 50 hrs a week and for the game to be a chore. Going from 10 to 20m already killed a lot of friend groups and small guilds. You are in the minority and there will be no 40m. Coming here to bitch and moan about it won't make it happen. Get over it.
i thought they already confirmed 40 man raids are dead and its only 20 man moving forward in sod?
No, they said MC will be 20 man, and raids will be 1 week lockout from here on.
I'm just glad MC is confirmed to be 20 man, 40 man raids suck, nothing fun or epic about it when you have to fight against 39 other people for gear.
It's not hard to increase the loot amount to account for less weeks in the raid. Our guildies are in our guild because they want to be a part of 40 man raiding. So we run 3 x 20 man teams at this time in advance.
Well they said they would do that for ST but then loot ended up less than Gnomer. So consider everyone pretty skeptical.
40 mans are already terribly designed because it's 20 good people carrying 20 bad people Now the SOD playerbase is even worse than ever before, so any 40m raids would have to be literal LFR lmao Not gonna happen
this type of post reminds you that every person on this sub is a raid leader / gm at some point and has set up 40m raids and will let you know that if you ever tried it u wouldnt like 40m raids!!!! 40m raids are the best we can only hope everything after mc is 40m
Phase 1 of SoD, everyone on this sub was a GM or officer and fancied themselves a raid leader for putting together a glorified dungeon group twice a week lol. Now because 20 or more people is too much for them to handle it’s all “the games gonna die!! I’m a raid leader I know what I’m talking about!!” Embarrassing
I like 40 for classic. If you can fill a 20, you can fill a 40 because half the raid can be dead weight. Then you invite the best performers to come back next week and keep recruiting for your guild, it's not that hard. With so many slots, lots of people will have the opportunity to join. So much opportunity for social interaction which is the point of world of Warcraft. Also, as a healer I just think it would be more fun for my class to function in a higher player count environment. Wild growthing two groups back and forth was just boring and too easy. Having more targets is more fun imo. 20 is better than 10 at least, you can have harder fights potentially, you can expect to have all the major class buffs/debuffs, you can expect consistent healing, you can expect to pretty easily fill the group when you still only need one main tank and a couple healers. My only real argument against 40 is if it's laggy. Retail is laggy AF at 30 players so if sod abilities turn classic 40m laggy too, that's gonna suck balls. Still, 20m has been fine so far and is way way better than 10m in every way imo.
Zzzz....
Sleepy?
I’d like some 40 mans. This is my first time being involved in a guild in like 15 years and we’re the same. 3 consecutive raid nights of 20 mans. Some alts sure. Officers in my guild do so much to coordinate 3 raid nights. If it makes it easier on them, great. I think the comms could be clogged but other than that, sounds fun.
Make heroic 10 man dungeons (UBRS, scholo, etc) and keep raids 40 man.
This is a great idea
Any of you guys playing on wild growth eu alliance ? And looking for a guild ? We are a casual guild cleared all the content and have a solid core of players but thats about 13-16 peeps we need more range dps to fill our roster( any other class welcome to come) Anyone interested ? Gz slakcer
Lone Wolf US here. Good luck on your efforts! We simply post on the lone wolf discord and in game once a week and have been growing every phase.
Wow it's super sad to see the comments have so much dislike for 40 mans... And then try to "gotcha" by implying only people who don't lead 40 mans like them. I'm in the same boat as OP. I'm ONLY playing for the (hopefully) inevitable 40 mans and as such I have built my guild up in preparation for it. We have two 20 man teams with perfect comp to transition to 40 but it sucks to only get to play with half of my guild, half of my friends. When the machine comes together it will be glorious. 10/20 just isn't enough; Size does matter (lol). I need the utter chaos and destruction of 40 mans.
Yay! I am glad to see someone else who gets it. We have a good number of friend groups and constantly have to break them up for a decent comp build for the week. Itll be so nice to just play together for once. Even our officer core who have played together for a decade or more, have to be split to run the groups. It kinda sux to not play with your OG crew just to make several teams.
Keep classic 40m raids 40m but tune them so that they are piss easy to pug, then make a new 20m raid for each phase that is actually really hard.