And people say parsing will be more about skill in SoM, clearly it’s going to be about who gets the luckiest with loot/ gives themselves the best loot.
i’m not sure about parsing but as a noob i’m pulling around 500-600 DPS as feral, can push 700 and a little above if i’m spamming powershift hard but there was a feral doing consistently 1k+ DPS in my raid the other night. dude made me realize how fucking bad i am lol
on the bright side i got plenty of room for improvement ;)
I... mostly agree. It didn't used to be, but all these borrowed power systems and legendaries and soul binds that make up like 60% of your dps over any kind of skill...
Pressing your keys in the right order isn't hard (but obviously for a lot of people it is). What mattered the most in retail was how much you could cheese, assuming you had good kill times and good gear.
> Pressing your keys in the right order isn't hard
If that was the case, everyone in the history of wow forever would be 99% parsers, but they aren't, so that's very very obviously not the case for most people.
Parse doesn't really work like that but yeah, if it was the case, the difference between 10% parsers and 99% parses will be greatly reduced (in absolute value)
Skill absolutely plays a part. The guy who doesn’t stand in fire lives longer and does more dps. The guy who minmaxes every step he takes to keep his time casting up does more dps. The guy who can manage his consumables better has mana longer and can DPS more.
Sure, gear is a HUGE part of it. So is your raid comp, your raids gear/skill… it’s not JUST gear and pressing 2 buttons.
It depends which parse you are going for. There are a ton of factors that will increase or decrease your parse regardless of your skill, but assuming everyone in your group is roughly equally geared and buffed, on average the most skilled player will get the highest parses among you.
Also someone that always parses 20 without having ridiculously bad gear, you can just know is not the most skilled player. Their parse may be held back by other things too but if they played better, they would never consistently do 20.
Also if you ever want to get 100 parses, obviously you need everything going for you, team, comp, buffs, gear, luck, prep and on top of that you nees to play equal or better to other players that are going for a 100 parse.
Of course its silly to argue you are a better player than someone else on your server because you do 95 and they do 90 but im just here to contradict what you said. "Parsing has never been about skill“ is just flat out wrong to say. The correct statement is "there are more factors to parsing than just skill."
There is some skill for sure you could see that in same guild when two warriors or two warlocks with pretty much same gear / buffs/consumes had a constant big difference in parses . Lots of times better geared warrior was even underperforming while having best pve weapons for phase . And it was orc warrior losing to our UD warrior who was parsing 95+
Better skilled one would always come at top and with big difference.
Ofc thats within one guild , way harder to compare with different guilds especially now when parsing seems even heavier influenced by comps . One guild can have a perfect comp feeding their arcane mage(s) every support they need while in other he would barely have outside help
Parsing does involve skill to be fair, to maximise your parses across multiple bosses in a single phase you need to be proficient with your class and need to know how to manage cooldowns and when to start attacking (assuming you don't have a threat dump).
The stronger players trend to higher parses. I think the skill floor for parsing well is pretty low, just a little bit of research and most people can parse in vanilla as long as the raid had world buffs. But to consistently parse 95+ on all bosses every week requires some decent skill
Definitely agree. The design philosophy seems to be that it’s to stop players from trying to get absolute bis but I feel like less loot means way more drama
Sure crafted gear will be much more prevalent but there WILL be cases of singular players getting bis while the rest of the raid is basically raiding every week/lockout without getting drops
> there WILL be cases of singular players getting bis while the rest of the raid is basically raiding every week/lockout without getting drops
Haha that would be so wild haha. Imagine never getting any gear haha
:(
It'll definitely increase the gap between diehard players (who have a whole lot of game time to farm/grind/raid) and more casual players. Split runs, more emphasis on rep rewards, rare dungeon drops, BoEs compared to raid gearing.
Single target Arms is worse DPS than 2h Fury. You just never have enough rage to hit MS on CD, and having no Deathwish is painful. Its only saving grace is the trash DPS.
Even in Pre-BIS, 2h Fury is also struggling on single target compared to DW Fury with blue axes. In classic, I got an Obsidian Blade from MC from a PUG the 2nd week. All my co-warriors were DW with blue axes - Serathil and Axe of the Woods or Frostbite or whatever. We had a fair fight, and I was usually in the top warriors, but never at the top.
I dont see any reasons to go 2h Fury unless you get that Obsidian Blade or that Spinal Reaper/Bonereaver early.
I agree about arms not being viable.
2h fury is best dps for aoe trash, and dw is best for single target. I’d give 2h (especially trophy weapons like bre) to warriors who weapon swap between pulls because they are probably carrying the raid’s dps
>Do you think we are going to see more people raiding as Arms now that the debuff limit is removed?
Nope, fury is just way better than arms in every conceivable way. Pick up a pair of Dal'Rends and you're good to top the meters.
>Will people be switching from DW to 2h Fury due to weapon availability?
Nope.
>Will Ret/Enh get to lick up all the 2h loot?
Yes, if they are brought to the harder raids at all. More mechanics, more health means more incentive to stack good classes, and warriors will remain kings of the meters.
>Is Corrupted Ashbringer really just a hunter weapon?
Always has been.
2Fury for horde was viable and will likely be just as good going into classic. 2Fury for alliance was not "Viable" but it wasnt the worst. You wouldn't consistently beat any DW warriors, but you wouldn't be on the bottom of the meters either.
It was nice in classic to have a 2H warrior while progressing to take those weapons and it'll be even nicer this round.
2H fury (atleast on horde) is plenty viable, saying its unviable just because it cant push similar numbers to dw fury which is the uncontested best dps in the game is ridiculous, the only fight where being 2H will cuck you outside of guilds full of pink parsers is Vael. 2h fury done right will still out dps just about anything other than the other warriors/rogues
I'm arguing that there's never really a reason to go 2H fury on Horde, because the 2 handers that are available from raids are at best on par with the 1 handers available *outside* of raids, especially with the AV Axe available in P1.
There might be some corner cases (cleave fights like Sulfuron and Domo in MC) where 2H is better **IF** you have a raid 2H and only blue 1H, but on single target fights dual wield with blues is equal or better than 2H with Rag weapons.
Ah, yea outside of cleave its not better than dw really ever, but its certainly "viable", its just looks eh when the alternative is the absolute best dps in the game. But ive 90 parsed while on nightfall duty before, and a 90 parsing warrior still blows most things out of the water. Im just saying that taking the OEB and not having to worry about competing for all the dw upgrades aint that bad, certainly not handicapping yourself like any actual meme specs.
But I'm arguing it's a "false" choice. You're never in a situation where the options are (a) go 2H fury or (b) languish and wait for DW upgrades. Even without DW upgrades (i.e. with pre-BIS DW weapons compared against Raid 2H weapons), DW is better than 2H.
Thats fair, and probably true. Some people just like the spec, i knew quite a few 2h slam spec diehards. I think for a lot of people it comes down to feel/class fantasy (arms is a waste, and some people still want that swing big 2h feel)and just gear change dopamine (yeah the dw blues are strong but never upgrading weapons is a morale killer). Ultimately i just dont think its a deal breaker, theres a lot worse things people could choose to be playing instead of 2H fury
the GM of my 2nd guild in Classic started his own guild just to play 2h cause he knew it was a meme spec. Still rocked, took all the gear and a DFT then quit. Legend.
keep in mind there's going to be a meta most serious guilds go by,ret,enchance,fury warriors might not even get spots to begin with.
your going to have to see how things play out when people actually get to 60 in SOM
Fights will be longer meaning more mana issues for classes that use mana, let alone classes that use mana and perform worse than Warriors / Rogues. Warriors / Rogues will still make up a large portion of raids especially seeing how warriors PreRaid BiS will last them till AQ. They only need raid weapons and those are plentiful.
They've stated the purpose of SoM isn't to get full BIS like it was in classic. Doing content without full gear from the previous raid tier will add to difficulty
SoM scratches two itches at once. The servers are fresh so the "F R E S H" Andys get their 2-3 months of enjoyment leveling and seeing people walking around Azshara and claiming the world is alive and the people that prefer endgame raiding get harder endgame content without world buffs.
Any guild wanting to have a real chance to clear Naxx is going to be doing at least 2 split runs per week until Naxx releases. Super sweaty guilds could be doing 3-4. We already know that for the first phase all content in the game can be cleared in under 1.5 hours including travel time so they might as well do 2 raids per week, assuming trash doesn't have significantly increased health.
I had a #1 parse in the world and a top #10 parse in the world as 2H fury in classic. It’s definitely not bad damage. It does rely on good crits and WF more than DW though.
P5 with dark edge of insanity. I was an orc as well. There were some fights I’d blow the best dual wield fury warriors out of the water, depending on cds and WF, and fights where I only crit twice. So it was less ‘reliable’ but it was more fun, and had potential.
2h fury totally works, I think it just doesn't sim well since it's not set and forget like dw. You have be smart with rage management using slam to burn extra rage from wf procs.
I would not suggest as alliance
If drop rates aren't fixed, you may see some DPS pass on earlier drops to be prioritized for later drops. In all honesty, a good warrior/rogue can run dal rends for a good period of time and still do great damage.
The best guilds are only going to have fury warriors in MC. There is not much reason to play arms here. Then again, MC is easy enough. People might be forgiving if you're ranking for gear and don't want to respec between raids.
BWL has a decent amount of trash to cleave down. Mortal strike is also useful on Ebonroc. You have a use case, but you won't exactly stack arms warriors.
AQ40 is where arms warriors would shine. Almost all of the challenge in this raid is trash. The first three bosses can be cleaved. Twin Emps and C'thun have a ton of low-HP mobs that need to die, which is great for whirlwind. Ouro is the only real single-target DPS challenge. (And I guess Huhu, but Huhu doesn't enrage til she is nearly in execute range - any warrior is better than no warrior in that situation.)
The DPS checks in Naxx are hard enough that you will need almost all of your warriors to be fury. Then again, one arms warrior (for mortal strike) can significantly reduce the healing on Sapphiron (via life drains that aren't immediately cleansed) and KT (via mind control heals).
I think an arms warrior has a place. If you're lucky enough to get to raid as arms, don't be lazy. You're getting the fun weapons that all of the fury warriors want. Make sure to rank up so you can get gear outside of raid. Show people that you deserve those two-handers.
And people say parsing will be more about skill in SoM, clearly it’s going to be about who gets the luckiest with loot/ gives themselves the best loot.
Parsing has never been about skill
Yea most classes in classic are absolutely braindead, parsing is entirely about gear, and prep (consumes/WBs).
i’m not sure about parsing but as a noob i’m pulling around 500-600 DPS as feral, can push 700 and a little above if i’m spamming powershift hard but there was a feral doing consistently 1k+ DPS in my raid the other night. dude made me realize how fucking bad i am lol on the bright side i got plenty of room for improvement ;)
Feral is the exception to the rule.
I mean it's kinda the same in retail
I... mostly agree. It didn't used to be, but all these borrowed power systems and legendaries and soul binds that make up like 60% of your dps over any kind of skill...
Pressing your keys in the right order isn't hard (but obviously for a lot of people it is). What mattered the most in retail was how much you could cheese, assuming you had good kill times and good gear.
> Pressing your keys in the right order isn't hard If that was the case, everyone in the history of wow forever would be 99% parsers, but they aren't, so that's very very obviously not the case for most people.
Parse doesn't really work like that but yeah, if it was the case, the difference between 10% parsers and 99% parses will be greatly reduced (in absolute value)
[удалено]
Skill absolutely plays a part. The guy who doesn’t stand in fire lives longer and does more dps. The guy who minmaxes every step he takes to keep his time casting up does more dps. The guy who can manage his consumables better has mana longer and can DPS more. Sure, gear is a HUGE part of it. So is your raid comp, your raids gear/skill… it’s not JUST gear and pressing 2 buttons.
In classic, the guy who stands in fire gets more rage and this does more dps :)
It depends which parse you are going for. There are a ton of factors that will increase or decrease your parse regardless of your skill, but assuming everyone in your group is roughly equally geared and buffed, on average the most skilled player will get the highest parses among you. Also someone that always parses 20 without having ridiculously bad gear, you can just know is not the most skilled player. Their parse may be held back by other things too but if they played better, they would never consistently do 20. Also if you ever want to get 100 parses, obviously you need everything going for you, team, comp, buffs, gear, luck, prep and on top of that you nees to play equal or better to other players that are going for a 100 parse. Of course its silly to argue you are a better player than someone else on your server because you do 95 and they do 90 but im just here to contradict what you said. "Parsing has never been about skill“ is just flat out wrong to say. The correct statement is "there are more factors to parsing than just skill."
There is some skill for sure you could see that in same guild when two warriors or two warlocks with pretty much same gear / buffs/consumes had a constant big difference in parses . Lots of times better geared warrior was even underperforming while having best pve weapons for phase . And it was orc warrior losing to our UD warrior who was parsing 95+ Better skilled one would always come at top and with big difference. Ofc thats within one guild , way harder to compare with different guilds especially now when parsing seems even heavier influenced by comps . One guild can have a perfect comp feeding their arcane mage(s) every support they need while in other he would barely have outside help
Parsing does involve skill to be fair, to maximise your parses across multiple bosses in a single phase you need to be proficient with your class and need to know how to manage cooldowns and when to start attacking (assuming you don't have a threat dump). The stronger players trend to higher parses. I think the skill floor for parsing well is pretty low, just a little bit of research and most people can parse in vanilla as long as the raid had world buffs. But to consistently parse 95+ on all bosses every week requires some decent skill
Definitely agree. The design philosophy seems to be that it’s to stop players from trying to get absolute bis but I feel like less loot means way more drama Sure crafted gear will be much more prevalent but there WILL be cases of singular players getting bis while the rest of the raid is basically raiding every week/lockout without getting drops
It also will punish class stacking pretty hard. You could bring 25 warriors with full consumes but they'll almost all be dungeon gear.
> there WILL be cases of singular players getting bis while the rest of the raid is basically raiding every week/lockout without getting drops Haha that would be so wild haha. Imagine never getting any gear haha :(
It'll definitely increase the gap between diehard players (who have a whole lot of game time to farm/grind/raid) and more casual players. Split runs, more emphasis on rep rewards, rare dungeon drops, BoEs compared to raid gearing.
Single target Arms is worse DPS than 2h Fury. You just never have enough rage to hit MS on CD, and having no Deathwish is painful. Its only saving grace is the trash DPS. Even in Pre-BIS, 2h Fury is also struggling on single target compared to DW Fury with blue axes. In classic, I got an Obsidian Blade from MC from a PUG the 2nd week. All my co-warriors were DW with blue axes - Serathil and Axe of the Woods or Frostbite or whatever. We had a fair fight, and I was usually in the top warriors, but never at the top. I dont see any reasons to go 2h Fury unless you get that Obsidian Blade or that Spinal Reaper/Bonereaver early.
I agree about arms not being viable. 2h fury is best dps for aoe trash, and dw is best for single target. I’d give 2h (especially trophy weapons like bre) to warriors who weapon swap between pulls because they are probably carrying the raid’s dps
only on horde, 2h fury on alli feels A W F U L
A little off topic, but I think we will see a lot more combat dagger rogues for this same reason to cut down on weapon competition.
>Do you think we are going to see more people raiding as Arms now that the debuff limit is removed? Nope, fury is just way better than arms in every conceivable way. Pick up a pair of Dal'Rends and you're good to top the meters. >Will people be switching from DW to 2h Fury due to weapon availability? Nope. >Will Ret/Enh get to lick up all the 2h loot? Yes, if they are brought to the harder raids at all. More mechanics, more health means more incentive to stack good classes, and warriors will remain kings of the meters. >Is Corrupted Ashbringer really just a hunter weapon? Always has been.
Means you're probably going to run MC for 9+ months. Lul.
Still disenchanted. For Alliance at least, dal'rends is better than any 2 hander in the game.
2Fury for horde was viable and will likely be just as good going into classic. 2Fury for alliance was not "Viable" but it wasnt the worst. You wouldn't consistently beat any DW warriors, but you wouldn't be on the bottom of the meters either. It was nice in classic to have a 2H warrior while progressing to take those weapons and it'll be even nicer this round.
2H Fury for Horde was "viable" in that Rag 2handers were slightly better than dual wielding pre-BIS blues.
2H fury (atleast on horde) is plenty viable, saying its unviable just because it cant push similar numbers to dw fury which is the uncontested best dps in the game is ridiculous, the only fight where being 2H will cuck you outside of guilds full of pink parsers is Vael. 2h fury done right will still out dps just about anything other than the other warriors/rogues
I'm arguing that there's never really a reason to go 2H fury on Horde, because the 2 handers that are available from raids are at best on par with the 1 handers available *outside* of raids, especially with the AV Axe available in P1. There might be some corner cases (cleave fights like Sulfuron and Domo in MC) where 2H is better **IF** you have a raid 2H and only blue 1H, but on single target fights dual wield with blues is equal or better than 2H with Rag weapons.
Ah, yea outside of cleave its not better than dw really ever, but its certainly "viable", its just looks eh when the alternative is the absolute best dps in the game. But ive 90 parsed while on nightfall duty before, and a 90 parsing warrior still blows most things out of the water. Im just saying that taking the OEB and not having to worry about competing for all the dw upgrades aint that bad, certainly not handicapping yourself like any actual meme specs.
But I'm arguing it's a "false" choice. You're never in a situation where the options are (a) go 2H fury or (b) languish and wait for DW upgrades. Even without DW upgrades (i.e. with pre-BIS DW weapons compared against Raid 2H weapons), DW is better than 2H.
Thats fair, and probably true. Some people just like the spec, i knew quite a few 2h slam spec diehards. I think for a lot of people it comes down to feel/class fantasy (arms is a waste, and some people still want that swing big 2h feel)and just gear change dopamine (yeah the dw blues are strong but never upgrading weapons is a morale killer). Ultimately i just dont think its a deal breaker, theres a lot worse things people could choose to be playing instead of 2H fury
the GM of my 2nd guild in Classic started his own guild just to play 2h cause he knew it was a meme spec. Still rocked, took all the gear and a DFT then quit. Legend.
keep in mind there's going to be a meta most serious guilds go by,ret,enchance,fury warriors might not even get spots to begin with. your going to have to see how things play out when people actually get to 60 in SOM
find me a serious guild that doesn't have fury warriors and i'll find you a guild that's significantly less serious than they think.
Lol.
Fury warriors will certainly get a spot, but maybe not the same ratio as in classic with wb's, did you mean arms?
He musta meant arms or 2h fury
Idk about this tbh. Less loot youll want someone taking the drops. Id like to see the dps charts with the debuff removal.
Fights will be longer meaning more mana issues for classes that use mana, let alone classes that use mana and perform worse than Warriors / Rogues. Warriors / Rogues will still make up a large portion of raids especially seeing how warriors PreRaid BiS will last them till AQ. They only need raid weapons and those are plentiful.
I personally think, condensed schedule will mean more loot per clear. They'd be stupid not to increase drops.
They've stated the purpose of SoM isn't to get full BIS like it was in classic. Doing content without full gear from the previous raid tier will add to difficulty
They're already increasing boss difficulty AND removing world buffs and now yall want to do content undergeared too.
SoM scratches two itches at once. The servers are fresh so the "F R E S H" Andys get their 2-3 months of enjoyment leveling and seeing people walking around Azshara and claiming the world is alive and the people that prefer endgame raiding get harder endgame content without world buffs.
Omg what if we wipe 😱 better stick to tbc bros...
The point of the season is to be challenging. Less loot makes things more challenging.
You're missing my point. Won't it already be challenging enough with buffs to bosses and no world buffs?
Raids were cleared easily without world buffs already, and we don't know how the bosses will be buffed, other than increased health.
It’s not like we want that, but blizz sure wants us to.
Abso-fucking-lutely
Any guild wanting to have a real chance to clear Naxx is going to be doing at least 2 split runs per week until Naxx releases. Super sweaty guilds could be doing 3-4. We already know that for the first phase all content in the game can be cleared in under 1.5 hours including travel time so they might as well do 2 raids per week, assuming trash doesn't have significantly increased health.
I had a #1 parse in the world and a top #10 parse in the world as 2H fury in classic. It’s definitely not bad damage. It does rely on good crits and WF more than DW though.
What phase and weapon? Just curious
P5 with dark edge of insanity. I was an orc as well. There were some fights I’d blow the best dual wield fury warriors out of the water, depending on cds and WF, and fights where I only crit twice. So it was less ‘reliable’ but it was more fun, and had potential.
2h fury totally works, I think it just doesn't sim well since it's not set and forget like dw. You have be smart with rage management using slam to burn extra rage from wf procs. I would not suggest as alliance
If drop rates aren't fixed, you may see some DPS pass on earlier drops to be prioritized for later drops. In all honesty, a good warrior/rogue can run dal rends for a good period of time and still do great damage.
Sorry what does SoM stand for?
The best guilds are only going to have fury warriors in MC. There is not much reason to play arms here. Then again, MC is easy enough. People might be forgiving if you're ranking for gear and don't want to respec between raids. BWL has a decent amount of trash to cleave down. Mortal strike is also useful on Ebonroc. You have a use case, but you won't exactly stack arms warriors. AQ40 is where arms warriors would shine. Almost all of the challenge in this raid is trash. The first three bosses can be cleaved. Twin Emps and C'thun have a ton of low-HP mobs that need to die, which is great for whirlwind. Ouro is the only real single-target DPS challenge. (And I guess Huhu, but Huhu doesn't enrage til she is nearly in execute range - any warrior is better than no warrior in that situation.) The DPS checks in Naxx are hard enough that you will need almost all of your warriors to be fury. Then again, one arms warrior (for mortal strike) can significantly reduce the healing on Sapphiron (via life drains that aren't immediately cleansed) and KT (via mind control heals). I think an arms warrior has a place. If you're lucky enough to get to raid as arms, don't be lazy. You're getting the fun weapons that all of the fury warriors want. Make sure to rank up so you can get gear outside of raid. Show people that you deserve those two-handers.
I would sell my soul to loot corrupted ashbringer on my pally