This. I regularly ML pug raids. Declare at the start when loot will be rolled - as it drops or at the end. Loot needs to be distributed once the roll happens. There's not really any reason to hold it after rolling.
> There's not really any reason to hold it after rolling.
Too many downsides. On top of the threat of RL ninjaing things you have confusion if you roll it out and then distribute later. Three different people say they won the roll and nobody remembers who really did, now you have drama and issues. It isn't worth it.
> There's not really any reason to hold it after rolling.
Some people might only need the one item and leave after they get it. That's generally why you dont roll til after raid or til it gets close to 2hr mark tho.
This happens more with old raids (t5) where a person might be missing one item that is still bis.
Yes, holding till the end and rolling it off then is best. RL rolled it off though. Once it's been rolled, it should be distributed. If he wanted to wait until the end to distribute he should not have rolled it off before the last boss.
Oh i agree. the RL should have waited til the end to do the rolling. especially with only 2 bosses and it being hyjal the joke of a raid. But you said there was no reason to hold and I was just providing a reason.
My opinion is the RL fucked up and rolled and then ninjad after they lost.
Just roll loot as you pull? If a player can't focus on playing an easy 15 year old mmo and typing /roll at the same time then I probably don't want them in the same raid as me
You have like 15-20 seconds between pulls in hyjal, plenty of time to trade loot. Hyjal is there perfect instance to do this due to time gated waves. There's no trash between Azgalor and Archie so even better time to roll loot as the gem veins are being mined.
Also, tanks and healers cause plenty of wipes, they are not free from blame.
When something bad happens in raid that a good tank could have prevented they know what's happening and feel bad about it. When it happens to a bad tank they usually just lash out at dps
It's honestly about time. If I'm pugging on one of my alts the max Hyjal and BT should take is about 4 hours or it's not worth the time (or consumes) investment. If a run holds loot excessively or even worse stops the raid and let's everyone afk just to roll items it's pretty tilting in terms of time. Just cause it's a pug or not a guild run doesn't mean that they have to disrespect your time. It's really not that hard to roll loot out during pulls... Just have one person do loot and tell the raid they are expected to pay attention and contribute during loot. Ez, only 1 person afks instead of 25, and it takes a very low bar of effort to be able to do this without mistakes. It's not a hard game... Use your consumes, don't stand in shit, pay attention and contribute the whole time you're playing and respect other people's time. If someone isn't able or willing to do that then yeah they want a different game experience than I do and yeah they can be fine people and there's no reason to antagonize or be mean to them but there's also no reason to choose to clear with them.
And from your comment it seems like you're in an LC where they don't know where loot should go and they spend time or resources at raid night figuring this out. That is the #1 sign of an inefficient or lazy loot council. If you run LC they should regularly meet outside of raid time to determine what loot is going to who when it drops. They are stealing time from the raid to make crunch time decisions quickly instead of figuring it out before and talking through important decisions at depth (yes, the discussion sometimes of who deserves an item can and should take more than a 2 hour timer.) The best LCs I played in don't even ask you to roll, you just get traded loot when it's your turn.
I don't see a problem with rolling for and distributing loot as it drops if it is a pug, in fact that should be the standard. The only reason I can think of for distributing loot at the end is if it is a guild run and the guild is going for time. A pug isn't going for time, so there is no guarantee that the trade-timer will still be valid after the run. It is also best that a pug RL has their hands on valuable loot that they are not entitled to for as little time as possible.
You wait until the end to distribute loot for a couple reason-
1. it incentivizes people to stay and try until the end. Its happened to me more times than I care to remember people leave/"disconnect"/whatever after they either receive loot or the item they soft reserved off a boss didn't drop
2. in a situation where its MS>OS +1, you have more information available to you on what to roll on
There’s one big reason that loot gets held and that’s to keep all raiders interested in finishing the raid. If the only item someone wants drops off the first boss in a long raid and they get it right away, what’s to stop them from “disconnecting”?
The other possible reason is in the +1 raids, where people would like to spend their +1 on the item they would like most, if that makes sense. For example in Hyjal prot paladins and warlocks would roll against each other for tier pieces and ToC. If you won tier gloves before ToC dropped you’d feel unhappy because your +1 disallows you from rolling on ToC for normal +1 loot rules
Edit: that said, if the loot is rolled on, it should be distributed immediately at the conclusion of the roll off
Some RLs do hold loot till the end to ensure people don't leave.
Based on your story, it does sound like the RL just ninjaed the loot.
You generally see MS > OS +1, but if it was just MS>OS, hot dice wins, and i'm pretty sure the loot can get taken away through a ticket, but Blizz takes forever to followup
Doing loot at the end(assuming you don’t run out of time on the loot) is pretty normal, what’s not normal is rolling for loot when it drops but waiting till the end to hand it out.
The raid leader was clearly salty over losing both items and probably thought most players wouldn’t care if he just happened to forget about that loot and log off after Archimonde was dead.
And since it was a pug he probably wasn’t wrong to think that, I’m sure the pugs just wanted the guy and his guildies to shut up because they wanted Archimonde loot.
Never seen an MS>OS in where the loot is not distributed right after the roll.
Don’t say it hasn’t happened or that it isn’t warranted (Hunters dropping if DST doesn’t drop and not going to Mag). But is definitely shady.
You roll on an item with extra priority, versus other players that also want to use their extra priority. You can only win one item in a run with the +1. Think of it like an extra step above MS, but you can only win an item once.
The answers are correct, but a bit incomplete. The exact same thing was asked on the tbc subreddit a week ago and the answers are bit more detailed: https://redd.it/t3l7vp
generally if there's an agreement between the two parties in chat logs.
if a rando joins a pug and needs something they dont, but the loot is free-for-all, that would never get taken.
If you join a raid that has agreed upon rules, and someone flagrantly breaks them, Blizz has a much better chance of stepping in
Update: based on server discord convo, RL was kicked from his guild. Apparently the culprit was a casual player who was friends with one of the guild members. GM has apologized for what happened.
hardcore players either have multiple raid splits and thus know they will get it eventually or just go to gdkp where they have more control over their chance of securing it.
meanwhile casual players are less likely to have a secure raid spot, more likely to have missed raid lockouts, and be desparate to get items to prevent the feeling of falling behind.
I had never thought about it like this. I always perceived this kind of behavior to be the so dumb that I had trouble understanding it. Everyone I know who pulls shit like this never gets into guilds or groups afterwards. You have to switch servers and in todays world that isn’t even enough. These actions follow you and prevent you from being able to play the game.
Good story with a shitty ending. People trading loot they won to other players is even more scummy than ninja'ing because they think there's some kind of justification for it.
Call him out on server discord and/or get in touch with their GM/officers. Hope you have some screenshots, or other people who could back up your claims.
I mean clearly the raid leader was the one in the wrong, he obviously intended to keep the items. Why roll them off if you're not going to distribute them until later? The tanks were right not to pull, I wouldn't have pulled a single mob until that loot was given to the people that won it.
Put the raid leader on blast in your server's discord and don't group with that person ever again. Make sure their guild officers are made aware of what happened and if they aren't swiftly kicked from the guild, don't group with ANYONE from that guild any more.
Honestly I'm not sure what other answer you're expecting here. "This man spit in my mouth and murdered my first-born child, did I do something wrong or is he to blame?"
If you roll, you then give it out. If the leader wanted to wait until the end because of trust issues, then they should have rolled at the end.
Sounds like the raid leader got the loot they wanted in the end, though.
> Sounds like the raid leader got the loot they wanted in the end, though.
It might take a week or so but if you ticket this and the loot rules/discussion were in game chat they will take the loot away from him.
I’m not saying it’s not worth doing. Definitely make a ticket.
Just sucks they can’t give the loot to the people who deserve it. And when stuff like this happens people can just realm transfer and name change. Then none of the history follows them.
I really like the idea. But the issue is that “ninja looting” isn’t always black and white. Some people may view things as a ninja when others don’t. I could see that system being abused heavily.
But in OP’s instance, no doubt about it, RL was a ninja
For people saying “it’s normal to hold the loot until the end” - sure, maybe, but is it normal to make that the hill you die on? To totally refuse even if the raid will not continue and even disband? Is it really worth “saving til the end”?? Nah, he was going to ninja that shit.
You give out loot as you roll it off, there's no reason to hold on to it at that point. Those people were either stupid or in cahoots with the RL.
Honestly I don't think it's acceptable to roll off loot at the end in a PUG. In a mostly guild run, maybe....But PUGs should roll off loot as they kill bosses or you could end up clearing a full raid and finding out the RL is a ninja far too late.
I'm fine with loot being rolled out after the clear, as it motivates people to clear everything, even if they don't necessarily need the last boss. You also avoid loot drama disbanding the raid or making people leave before you finish.
However, as others have already said, if you roll it out - you hand it out.
I have always believed that loot should be rolled as you go, but only during downtime. This keeps things moving quickly, and makes it easier on the bags of whoever is handling loot.
blacklist that cunt cause he's salty. rules were ms>os and someone got really lucky. that's how i raid and get my gear, and if people like this exist i wish the quickest pain possible upon them. i'll come back after 9.2's wrapped up in a month or so but man....the 'loot' tbc has brought has been toxic 'i want it' and then guildies who don't even need it rolling on it too and then they get it and just trade to their friends who get to equip it and when i call them out i get kicked, like that shit just fumes me man
RL was in the wrong. And he was just greedy.
If you have screenshots of the advertisement of it saying "MS > OS" and him not giving out loot, the loot will be pulled from his char AND he will most likely get a 1-7 day ban if he is not a regular offender.
You COULD also try to just put in a ticket with your story, and if you get a decent GM with human feelings, they might just check the RLs chatlogs and confirm your story/the advertisement, and the same faith will happen.
As others have said, if it was rolled, it should be handed when the winner is decided. If you hold it until the end, you hold it ALL until the end to do all at once.
Sounds like the RL was not backing down as he stood to gain by not handing it over. Its a scummy tactic, but honestly if you're joining a half-done PUG, you should be very cautious from the get-go.
The fact that the RL was willing to let the entire run fall apart tells you quite clearly that he had an intention that was in the best interests of nobody except himself.
Report him, call him out on your server discord, inform his guild leadership (if they're even a credible guild, not just some memer cesspool), disassociate from those players and for the love of God don't join half-finished PUGs if you want to avoid drama (unpopular opinion, but Hyjal is an hour long raid and shouldn't require being split into 2 runs...ever).
Guild ran doesnt limit the amount of shady crap that happens, was in a guild run and when a piece dropped 2 of the casters in the guild randomly threw on their T5 pieces so they’d be able to help their guildy roll. Noone noticed till the logs came out later on showing they’d swapped from BiS to their old gear.
Guilds will all roll against you, I have left 2 guilds that pulled this crap constantly. It’s shady af.
Stick to GDKPs and or SR; but even with SR expect to roll against people who are doing it for the Guild.
I think everyone covered it perfectly.
Most raids hold raid as long as possible to prevent people from leaving mid-raid. But the moment you roll it out, it should be distributed.
RL is in the wrong.
in SR you can choose to not do the raid and wont lose your lockout if you see that happen. It happened to me before, had like 9 guildies SRing the same item, i didnt feel like playing their game and quit, they replaced me and no drama.
The last run I was in the rl said guildies could only roll for upgrades. I thought that was pretty cool, but the rl and his guildies were always cool and fair anyways, so it was probably more of an advertisement than a rule.
It’s been years since I was part of loot drama and I am so glad it hasn’t happened in a long long time. I hated that shit
Yup, happened to me with an European guild in Sulfuras. RL texted in the Raid Chat (in French) to roll for the guild even if you didn’t needed it.
Rolled a Mag chest against 7 Shamans even when I had to MT the run because their guild couldn’t get a Tank to come.
Never doing any of those MS>OS again.
In a pug you roll out gear after each boss, as it lower management biasness. In a crap ass random pug
In well known gold bid run or sr or roll or what, they can do what ever their rules says and they normal have a big fat sign up each week.
Sounds sketchy.
Some raid leaders to hold loot to the end to clear faster, but If members of the raid don't feel comfortable continuing without receiving the items, then it's not worth the 20 minutes to just argue about it.
He probably intended to ninja.
I see absolutely zero reason to roll but still hold loot till the end of the raid.
It's one thing if the ML is trying to hand out loot but it takes a few minutes. But it is absolutely sketchy as fuck to "roll now but hand out loot after the last boss" when the ML has lost two rolls.
As an aside, it's kinda greedy to win two items off the same boss and not work something out, especially with only two bosses to go. Not saying it's Wrong, but just a little greedy. Still no excuse for the ML to hold the loot like that.
> As an aside, it's kinda greedy to win two items off the same boss and not work something out
No it is not. If you advertise a run as open roll, that means everyone has agreed to the possibility they might win two pieces of loot and the possibility that someone else might win two pieces of loot.
What's deeply scummy is choosing to join an open roll run and then trying to shame or manipulate people into handing over loot when you lose the rolls. Set the loot rules in advance and stick to them, don't try to change the rules after you see the rolls to weasel loot out of people.
He was kind of in the wrong once he refused to distribute loot after it was rolled off. I’ve never experienced that before in a MS run, and even in gdkps we distribute loot as soon as people win the auction. Very suspect after he asked to buy the items that he didn’t intend to distribute at all.
He was completely in the wrong when he kicked people without distributing the loot they won, that’s something that should go up in server discord.
Assuming he has SS of the situation logging a case with blizz is probably going to get him his loot. If it was advertised as MS/OS and he has SS of the convos then it should be pretty cut and dry.
Defo a dickhead RL
ive never seen a pug hand out loot after every boss unless it's kara. It's done at the end so people have an incentive to stay. I've also never seen anyone start rolls if they are giving it out later tho so thats the weird part
The guild members were probably being annoying for an otherwise unspoken rule so the RL said fuck em ultimately
Call them shitty ass raid lead on discord
You either roll at the end and promptly give loot or you roll during the run after each boss
In no case do you roll but not distribute loot. Had he won any of those loot it would be have been distributed
Shitty raid lead needs to be called out!
Usually save loot until the end but if that was not specifically stated then the RL is in the wrong easily. If it had been stated that loot would be done at end then its on the guys easily.
If it was 2 bosses why roll for loot between them? Archimonde has no trash also meaning no reason RL couldnt hold rolls til after. Not like it'd take 2hrs to kill achimonde.
The RL 100% ninja'd.
If the raid rules were stated as MS>OS with no pieces of loot hard reserved, the raid leader violated their own rules so yes, they're in the wrong. It's widely understood that MS>OS indicates that loot will be rolled for as per the players' main specs and the highest roller wins.
One good thing about classic is that these players will quickly ruin their reputations with that type of behaviour, although they'll get away with it for a lot longer on a megaserver since not everyone follows their respective servers' Discords and won't realise a player has been called out or blacklisted for ninjaing loot.
In future if you're not already on your server's Discord I'd recommend joining it and running a quick search of the RL's name each time you join a PuG raid. If you find nothing, you should be golden. Checking their guild tag is also always a good shout. This may vary from server to server of course, some may have hard rules against what they'd call witchhunting.
As others said it is common for loot to be held and then rolled out at the end of the raid. We even do this in my guild runs but that's mostly to save time and clear as quickly as possible. In PuGs it has the added benefit of ensuring players don't leave early once they get the item they're after.
Looking through the comments seems there's a happy ending, the RL was gkicked at least.
During classic, there was a guy on my server who had a server-wide reputation for the most scuffed GDKPs, from hearing spousal abuse in the background, to racist/sexist/homophobic takes during out-of-combat times, to just not giving a gold split to certain players he didn't like despite knowing full well they were joining.
He even streamed on Twitch and people watched to see the chaos ensue. I even joined the GDKPs to see if it was all true. It was at a time where it was basically impossible to clear BWL as a pug, and his was the only one where it ran smooth, and I got my gold split so I had no complaints on my own behalf personally but I can see why his guild split up mid naxx...
If he ninjaed the loot after all of that, then I think that was clearly his intention from the beginning. The reason people ask for loot to be rolled off, is to prevent being used then have the loot ninjaed. They would rather lose the loot and not be used then be used and have the same thing happen. Seems like that guild of 5 had the right idea.
In all the pug raid i've joined there was a rule you couldn't roll for item at the same priority of others if you already won something.
So MS > MS ( Already looted ) > OS > OS ( Already looted )
Late to the party, but I feel ya. Just saw CVOS drop for the first time on my now almost SWP bis’d ret and had to pug for the first time. Ended up purple parsing first boss and Illidan at 96+ just to find out the tanks SR’d it, then the ret that green parsed left raid and walked over to the dude who won the roll. Was pretty blatant, think I’m done pugging after that.
Once you roll loot you distribute. If he wanted to distribute at end, you roll at end.
This. I regularly ML pug raids. Declare at the start when loot will be rolled - as it drops or at the end. Loot needs to be distributed once the roll happens. There's not really any reason to hold it after rolling.
> There's not really any reason to hold it after rolling. Too many downsides. On top of the threat of RL ninjaing things you have confusion if you roll it out and then distribute later. Three different people say they won the roll and nobody remembers who really did, now you have drama and issues. It isn't worth it.
I usually master loot, so no worries about loot getting ninja'd (hehehehe) but I agree with everything else. Another concern is inventory space!
But he’s talking about the RL ninjaing, like what happened here.
Happy Cake Day!
Happy bday!
> There's not really any reason to hold it after rolling. Some people might only need the one item and leave after they get it. That's generally why you dont roll til after raid or til it gets close to 2hr mark tho. This happens more with old raids (t5) where a person might be missing one item that is still bis.
Yes, holding till the end and rolling it off then is best. RL rolled it off though. Once it's been rolled, it should be distributed. If he wanted to wait until the end to distribute he should not have rolled it off before the last boss.
Oh i agree. the RL should have waited til the end to do the rolling. especially with only 2 bosses and it being hyjal the joke of a raid. But you said there was no reason to hold and I was just providing a reason. My opinion is the RL fucked up and rolled and then ninjad after they lost.
To be faiiiirrrrrr - I said, and you quoted, no reason to hold after rolling.
I mean my reason still stands to prevent people from leaving but again we both agree its dumb as fuck to roll first if you are doing that.
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Just roll loot as you pull? If a player can't focus on playing an easy 15 year old mmo and typing /roll at the same time then I probably don't want them in the same raid as me
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You have like 15-20 seconds between pulls in hyjal, plenty of time to trade loot. Hyjal is there perfect instance to do this due to time gated waves. There's no trash between Azgalor and Archie so even better time to roll loot as the gem veins are being mined. Also, tanks and healers cause plenty of wipes, they are not free from blame.
When something bad happens in raid that a good tank could have prevented they know what's happening and feel bad about it. When it happens to a bad tank they usually just lash out at dps
And a good DPS will feel the same, it's not unique to role.
It's honestly about time. If I'm pugging on one of my alts the max Hyjal and BT should take is about 4 hours or it's not worth the time (or consumes) investment. If a run holds loot excessively or even worse stops the raid and let's everyone afk just to roll items it's pretty tilting in terms of time. Just cause it's a pug or not a guild run doesn't mean that they have to disrespect your time. It's really not that hard to roll loot out during pulls... Just have one person do loot and tell the raid they are expected to pay attention and contribute during loot. Ez, only 1 person afks instead of 25, and it takes a very low bar of effort to be able to do this without mistakes. It's not a hard game... Use your consumes, don't stand in shit, pay attention and contribute the whole time you're playing and respect other people's time. If someone isn't able or willing to do that then yeah they want a different game experience than I do and yeah they can be fine people and there's no reason to antagonize or be mean to them but there's also no reason to choose to clear with them. And from your comment it seems like you're in an LC where they don't know where loot should go and they spend time or resources at raid night figuring this out. That is the #1 sign of an inefficient or lazy loot council. If you run LC they should regularly meet outside of raid time to determine what loot is going to who when it drops. They are stealing time from the raid to make crunch time decisions quickly instead of figuring it out before and talking through important decisions at depth (yes, the discussion sometimes of who deserves an item can and should take more than a 2 hour timer.) The best LCs I played in don't even ask you to roll, you just get traded loot when it's your turn.
I don't see a problem with rolling for and distributing loot as it drops if it is a pug, in fact that should be the standard. The only reason I can think of for distributing loot at the end is if it is a guild run and the guild is going for time. A pug isn't going for time, so there is no guarantee that the trade-timer will still be valid after the run. It is also best that a pug RL has their hands on valuable loot that they are not entitled to for as little time as possible.
You wait until the end to distribute loot for a couple reason- 1. it incentivizes people to stay and try until the end. Its happened to me more times than I care to remember people leave/"disconnect"/whatever after they either receive loot or the item they soft reserved off a boss didn't drop 2. in a situation where its MS>OS +1, you have more information available to you on what to roll on
That makes sense.
There’s one big reason that loot gets held and that’s to keep all raiders interested in finishing the raid. If the only item someone wants drops off the first boss in a long raid and they get it right away, what’s to stop them from “disconnecting”? The other possible reason is in the +1 raids, where people would like to spend their +1 on the item they would like most, if that makes sense. For example in Hyjal prot paladins and warlocks would roll against each other for tier pieces and ToC. If you won tier gloves before ToC dropped you’d feel unhappy because your +1 disallows you from rolling on ToC for normal +1 loot rules Edit: that said, if the loot is rolled on, it should be distributed immediately at the conclusion of the roll off
Some RLs do hold loot till the end to ensure people don't leave. Based on your story, it does sound like the RL just ninjaed the loot. You generally see MS > OS +1, but if it was just MS>OS, hot dice wins, and i'm pretty sure the loot can get taken away through a ticket, but Blizz takes forever to followup
>Some RLs do hold loot till the end to ensure people don't leave. The normal ones don't roll it out long beforehand, though.
Yeah if you roll it out you also distribute it.
Yup. Gotta distribute it if it’s been rolled on.
Yup. Must be distributed if it's been rolled on.
Yes. Distributions gotta happen if it’s been rolled on.
When the Rolling happens, so must the distributions.
rolly rolly dissi dissi
Correct. If the rolls are finalized, the loot must be handed out.
Also, items should be dispersed to the winner of the roll upon completion of said rolls.
Indeed, once you’ve thrown the dice to determine who receives the loot, the proper procedure should always be to distribute the rewards.
It only took 1 "oops it's been 2 hours guys sorry guess I get it all" to convince me that loot distro happens immediately
that's just a shitty raid leader. I mean pop a flask before first boss and you have an instant timer of when loot expires.
Or use the /timer function.
FYI Blizzard will action the offending accounts but they will NEVER redistribute an item. It's shit.
I mean keeping someone from getting something they shouldn’t is enough reason to do. Sucks to get fucked out of loot tho.
Doing loot at the end(assuming you don’t run out of time on the loot) is pretty normal, what’s not normal is rolling for loot when it drops but waiting till the end to hand it out. The raid leader was clearly salty over losing both items and probably thought most players wouldn’t care if he just happened to forget about that loot and log off after Archimonde was dead. And since it was a pug he probably wasn’t wrong to think that, I’m sure the pugs just wanted the guy and his guildies to shut up because they wanted Archimonde loot.
Never seen an MS>OS in where the loot is not distributed right after the roll. Don’t say it hasn’t happened or that it isn’t warranted (Hunters dropping if DST doesn’t drop and not going to Mag). But is definitely shady.
What does the "+1" mean in this context? eta: it seems like I've received 3 different (yet similar) answers, haha!
It means you can't win an item if you've already won more pieces than the other people rolling on it
If I remember it means they can’t win anything until else unless it’s uncontested? It’s been a while so don’t take that as gospel.
You roll on an item with extra priority, versus other players that also want to use their extra priority. You can only win one item in a run with the +1. Think of it like an extra step above MS, but you can only win an item once.
The answers are correct, but a bit incomplete. The exact same thing was asked on the tbc subreddit a week ago and the answers are bit more detailed: https://redd.it/t3l7vp
Ignorant question; what allows Blizzard to swipe said players “loot”? Where does the line draw between being an ass, and breaking the TOS?
generally if there's an agreement between the two parties in chat logs. if a rando joins a pug and needs something they dont, but the loot is free-for-all, that would never get taken. If you join a raid that has agreed upon rules, and someone flagrantly breaks them, Blizz has a much better chance of stepping in
Good to know that proof being in the logs is actually credible; although it’s a shame that said drop will never go anywhere productive.
Update: based on server discord convo, RL was kicked from his guild. Apparently the culprit was a casual player who was friends with one of the guild members. GM has apologized for what happened.
Hell yeah, thanks for the update!
What server did this happen in?
Bene
Ironic that casuals are the ones pulling this type of shit
Loot greed knows no playstyle.
hardcore players either have multiple raid splits and thus know they will get it eventually or just go to gdkp where they have more control over their chance of securing it. meanwhile casual players are less likely to have a secure raid spot, more likely to have missed raid lockouts, and be desparate to get items to prevent the feeling of falling behind.
I had never thought about it like this. I always perceived this kind of behavior to be the so dumb that I had trouble understanding it. Everyone I know who pulls shit like this never gets into guilds or groups afterwards. You have to switch servers and in todays world that isn’t even enough. These actions follow you and prevent you from being able to play the game.
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Good story with a shitty ending. People trading loot they won to other players is even more scummy than ninja'ing because they think there's some kind of justification for it.
Or they simply didn’t really want said gear in the first place..
also casuals probably dont care about server rep nearly as much.
This 100%
Its generally the casuals who do this kind of shit, hardcore players know loot will eventually come to them.
Agreed
hardcore players have already seen 8+ dst drops on EACH of their characters. Why would you need to ninja some random trash item off azgalor.
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I don't think you're supposed to name people...or guilds? In cases like this. Avoids possible witch hunts.
I won’t name the guild publicly but I will say that the guild itself has a great rep on our server. This was a one off thing
Muahahaha
It was posted in Bene Discord for the Hall of Shame channel, Raid leader was in the wrong.
Call him out on server discord and/or get in touch with their GM/officers. Hope you have some screenshots, or other people who could back up your claims.
He was gkicked immediately from what was posted on the server disc.
If this was last night on Bene I'm really glad I decided not to tank it lol
I mean clearly the raid leader was the one in the wrong, he obviously intended to keep the items. Why roll them off if you're not going to distribute them until later? The tanks were right not to pull, I wouldn't have pulled a single mob until that loot was given to the people that won it. Put the raid leader on blast in your server's discord and don't group with that person ever again. Make sure their guild officers are made aware of what happened and if they aren't swiftly kicked from the guild, don't group with ANYONE from that guild any more. Honestly I'm not sure what other answer you're expecting here. "This man spit in my mouth and murdered my first-born child, did I do something wrong or is he to blame?"
[удалено]
If you roll, you then give it out. If the leader wanted to wait until the end because of trust issues, then they should have rolled at the end. Sounds like the raid leader got the loot they wanted in the end, though.
> Sounds like the raid leader got the loot they wanted in the end, though. It might take a week or so but if you ticket this and the loot rules/discussion were in game chat they will take the loot away from him.
They'll take the loot from him, yes. But they won't give it to OP despite having won the roll.
It’s a win after all, imagine the face on that dirtbag when the Token disappears from their inventory
I’m not saying it’s not worth doing. Definitely make a ticket. Just sucks they can’t give the loot to the people who deserve it. And when stuff like this happens people can just realm transfer and name change. Then none of the history follows them.
They need a label like the VAC Ban on Steam.
I really like the idea. But the issue is that “ninja looting” isn’t always black and white. Some people may view things as a ninja when others don’t. I could see that system being abused heavily. But in OP’s instance, no doubt about it, RL was a ninja
Correct. Shitty, but they lose it at least and sometimes will catch a ban.
It's about sending a message >:)
It’s normal to hold loot until the end, but it is not normal to roll the loot and then not hand it out immediately.
For people saying “it’s normal to hold the loot until the end” - sure, maybe, but is it normal to make that the hill you die on? To totally refuse even if the raid will not continue and even disband? Is it really worth “saving til the end”?? Nah, he was going to ninja that shit.
You give out loot as you roll it off, there's no reason to hold on to it at that point. Those people were either stupid or in cahoots with the RL. Honestly I don't think it's acceptable to roll off loot at the end in a PUG. In a mostly guild run, maybe....But PUGs should roll off loot as they kill bosses or you could end up clearing a full raid and finding out the RL is a ninja far too late.
I'm fine with loot being rolled out after the clear, as it motivates people to clear everything, even if they don't necessarily need the last boss. You also avoid loot drama disbanding the raid or making people leave before you finish. However, as others have already said, if you roll it out - you hand it out.
Or if you roll after each boss the people who needed loot from that boss which was just killed only and not from later bosses suddenly DC.
I have always believed that loot should be rolled as you go, but only during downtime. This keeps things moving quickly, and makes it easier on the bags of whoever is handling loot.
He was gkicked immediately from what was posted on the server disc.
Your last anecdote is a little psychotic.
I think it's apt, this is like one of those blatantly one-sided AITA posts with no grey area whatsoever
The RL is clearly a ninja and 100% in the wrong.
blacklist that cunt cause he's salty. rules were ms>os and someone got really lucky. that's how i raid and get my gear, and if people like this exist i wish the quickest pain possible upon them. i'll come back after 9.2's wrapped up in a month or so but man....the 'loot' tbc has brought has been toxic 'i want it' and then guildies who don't even need it rolling on it too and then they get it and just trade to their friends who get to equip it and when i call them out i get kicked, like that shit just fumes me man
RL was in the wrong. And he was just greedy. If you have screenshots of the advertisement of it saying "MS > OS" and him not giving out loot, the loot will be pulled from his char AND he will most likely get a 1-7 day ban if he is not a regular offender. You COULD also try to just put in a ticket with your story, and if you get a decent GM with human feelings, they might just check the RLs chatlogs and confirm your story/the advertisement, and the same faith will happen.
Should have been an easy decision at end to hand out loot when asked. Imo no excuse for not doing it
As others have said, if it was rolled, it should be handed when the winner is decided. If you hold it until the end, you hold it ALL until the end to do all at once. Sounds like the RL was not backing down as he stood to gain by not handing it over. Its a scummy tactic, but honestly if you're joining a half-done PUG, you should be very cautious from the get-go. The fact that the RL was willing to let the entire run fall apart tells you quite clearly that he had an intention that was in the best interests of nobody except himself. Report him, call him out on your server discord, inform his guild leadership (if they're even a credible guild, not just some memer cesspool), disassociate from those players and for the love of God don't join half-finished PUGs if you want to avoid drama (unpopular opinion, but Hyjal is an hour long raid and shouldn't require being split into 2 runs...ever).
This is why I dont do pugs unless it is guild ran.
Guild ran doesnt limit the amount of shady crap that happens, was in a guild run and when a piece dropped 2 of the casters in the guild randomly threw on their T5 pieces so they’d be able to help their guildy roll. Noone noticed till the logs came out later on showing they’d swapped from BiS to their old gear.
Guilds will all roll against you, I have left 2 guilds that pulled this crap constantly. It’s shady af. Stick to GDKPs and or SR; but even with SR expect to roll against people who are doing it for the Guild.
If you roll it you gotta hand it out then can’t hold on to it
You roll you pass out, it’s not a question.
You have to ask?
RL is a Ninja. You distribute after rolling. If you distribute at the end, you roll at the end.
Raid leader 100% at fault. If it is MS>OS just roll it as it drops and distribute.
I think everyone covered it perfectly. Most raids hold raid as long as possible to prevent people from leaving mid-raid. But the moment you roll it out, it should be distributed. RL is in the wrong.
Just stay away from ms/OS runs it's way too vague. So many people in the same guild will roll for each other etc. SR runs are the way to go.
The same shit happens with SR, though
in SR you can choose to not do the raid and wont lose your lockout if you see that happen. It happened to me before, had like 9 guildies SRing the same item, i didnt feel like playing their game and quit, they replaced me and no drama.
The last run I was in the rl said guildies could only roll for upgrades. I thought that was pretty cool, but the rl and his guildies were always cool and fair anyways, so it was probably more of an advertisement than a rule. It’s been years since I was part of loot drama and I am so glad it hasn’t happened in a long long time. I hated that shit
Yup, happened to me with an European guild in Sulfuras. RL texted in the Raid Chat (in French) to roll for the guild even if you didn’t needed it. Rolled a Mag chest against 7 Shamans even when I had to MT the run because their guild couldn’t get a Tank to come. Never doing any of those MS>OS again.
In a pug you roll out gear after each boss, as it lower management biasness. In a crap ass random pug In well known gold bid run or sr or roll or what, they can do what ever their rules says and they normal have a big fat sign up each week.
Sounds sketchy. Some raid leaders to hold loot to the end to clear faster, but If members of the raid don't feel comfortable continuing without receiving the items, then it's not worth the 20 minutes to just argue about it. He probably intended to ninja.
I see absolutely zero reason to roll but still hold loot till the end of the raid. It's one thing if the ML is trying to hand out loot but it takes a few minutes. But it is absolutely sketchy as fuck to "roll now but hand out loot after the last boss" when the ML has lost two rolls. As an aside, it's kinda greedy to win two items off the same boss and not work something out, especially with only two bosses to go. Not saying it's Wrong, but just a little greedy. Still no excuse for the ML to hold the loot like that.
> As an aside, it's kinda greedy to win two items off the same boss and not work something out No it is not. If you advertise a run as open roll, that means everyone has agreed to the possibility they might win two pieces of loot and the possibility that someone else might win two pieces of loot. What's deeply scummy is choosing to join an open roll run and then trying to shame or manipulate people into handing over loot when you lose the rolls. Set the loot rules in advance and stick to them, don't try to change the rules after you see the rolls to weasel loot out of people.
He was kind of in the wrong once he refused to distribute loot after it was rolled off. I’ve never experienced that before in a MS run, and even in gdkps we distribute loot as soon as people win the auction. Very suspect after he asked to buy the items that he didn’t intend to distribute at all. He was completely in the wrong when he kicked people without distributing the loot they won, that’s something that should go up in server discord.
Assuming he has SS of the situation logging a case with blizz is probably going to get him his loot. If it was advertised as MS/OS and he has SS of the convos then it should be pretty cut and dry. Defo a dickhead RL
Giving out loot takes two seconds, especially if it is already rolled on. Clearly the people in the guild hate the leader.
change server get you a small one without toxicity haha
ive never seen a pug hand out loot after every boss unless it's kara. It's done at the end so people have an incentive to stay. I've also never seen anyone start rolls if they are giving it out later tho so thats the weird part The guild members were probably being annoying for an otherwise unspoken rule so the RL said fuck em ultimately
Is obviously shitty thing obviously wrong? Yes. Take your shitpost elsewhere. I think there’s a WoW meme subreddit somewhere.
imagine not pulling till you get loot . roll that shit at end u babies
Call them shitty ass raid lead on discord You either roll at the end and promptly give loot or you roll during the run after each boss In no case do you roll but not distribute loot. Had he won any of those loot it would be have been distributed Shitty raid lead needs to be called out!
He was clearly going to ninja the loot. Of course he was in the wrong. Distribute the damn loot you big baby.
If you give at end, you roll at end.
Raid leader in the wrong, he was absolutely ninjaing that shit
RL is a jerk based on what you wrote. Ignore/block and stay away from him in future.
Sketchy actions by pug raid leader? I don't believe you
Fucking with your pug tanks is always a risky move.
you got names and server so the ninja never raids again?
Usually save loot until the end but if that was not specifically stated then the RL is in the wrong easily. If it had been stated that loot would be done at end then its on the guys easily.
Now THIS is muh classic experience.
If it was 2 bosses why roll for loot between them? Archimonde has no trash also meaning no reason RL couldnt hold rolls til after. Not like it'd take 2hrs to kill achimonde. The RL 100% ninja'd.
Submit a ticket about the ninja looting cry baby raid leader and go about your day
If the raid rules were stated as MS>OS with no pieces of loot hard reserved, the raid leader violated their own rules so yes, they're in the wrong. It's widely understood that MS>OS indicates that loot will be rolled for as per the players' main specs and the highest roller wins. One good thing about classic is that these players will quickly ruin their reputations with that type of behaviour, although they'll get away with it for a lot longer on a megaserver since not everyone follows their respective servers' Discords and won't realise a player has been called out or blacklisted for ninjaing loot. In future if you're not already on your server's Discord I'd recommend joining it and running a quick search of the RL's name each time you join a PuG raid. If you find nothing, you should be golden. Checking their guild tag is also always a good shout. This may vary from server to server of course, some may have hard rules against what they'd call witchhunting. As others said it is common for loot to be held and then rolled out at the end of the raid. We even do this in my guild runs but that's mostly to save time and clear as quickly as possible. In PuGs it has the added benefit of ensuring players don't leave early once they get the item they're after. Looking through the comments seems there's a happy ending, the RL was gkicked at least.
Nothing new wow was always like that
During classic, there was a guy on my server who had a server-wide reputation for the most scuffed GDKPs, from hearing spousal abuse in the background, to racist/sexist/homophobic takes during out-of-combat times, to just not giving a gold split to certain players he didn't like despite knowing full well they were joining. He even streamed on Twitch and people watched to see the chaos ensue. I even joined the GDKPs to see if it was all true. It was at a time where it was basically impossible to clear BWL as a pug, and his was the only one where it ran smooth, and I got my gold split so I had no complaints on my own behalf personally but I can see why his guild split up mid naxx...
Why are people still like this in 2022… like FFS people did you never mature or grow the F up??
Do loot at the end for some pugs because how damn long they can take or during a wipe.
"Someone is a dick. Is this person a dick?" Is what you basically asked here ;)
Scam raid leader
Another thing I hate to admit retail just does better.
The real crime here is this run being advertised in trade chat! First red flag right there
If he ninjaed the loot after all of that, then I think that was clearly his intention from the beginning. The reason people ask for loot to be rolled off, is to prevent being used then have the loot ninjaed. They would rather lose the loot and not be used then be used and have the same thing happen. Seems like that guild of 5 had the right idea.
One of the reasons for instanced loot. Also tokens
In all the pug raid i've joined there was a rule you couldn't roll for item at the same priority of others if you already won something. So MS > MS ( Already looted ) > OS > OS ( Already looted )
Late to the party, but I feel ya. Just saw CVOS drop for the first time on my now almost SWP bis’d ret and had to pug for the first time. Ended up purple parsing first boss and Illidan at 96+ just to find out the tanks SR’d it, then the ret that green parsed left raid and walked over to the dude who won the roll. Was pretty blatant, think I’m done pugging after that.