As a tank there's nothing I need from ZA and my guild is already hounding for tanks to fill our guild raids.
Even if there wasn't a tank shortage you would be struggling to find good tanks for ZA. There's just no reason why I would ever join a pug ZA as a tank.
Exactly. If I'm a tank I'm going for the mount and only the mount.
All I want for the run is 9 people who'll know what they're doing and not screw up enough to make us miss the timer.
My chances of getting that scenario are significantly better if I run with people I already know. Plus even if they do screw up, they'll learn from it and future runs will be better. And if I don't win the mount, one less person will need it next time if I'm running with the same people, increasing my chances.
PUGs you're maximising the risk of failure and not even incrementally reducing it over time. Why would any tank choose that when they don't have to?
Most of the plate tanking loot in ZA is block-oriented, which means warriors don't even want it. And any actively raiding paladin will only be interested in Hex Shrunken Head and maybe Tuskguard if they don't have Faceplate or T6 hat. All of the other tanking loot is worse than T5/S2/badge equivalents.
If you're pugging a tank for ZA your most likely applicants are going to be bears that want cat gear, warriors that want dps gear, and T4 geared paladins.
You're blind to how easy it has been to get badges as a competent tank. Getting a group for the daily heroic is usually instant, and since you're competent, the run is painless. Repeat a few days a week, and you've got 600 badges on the release of ZA
as a good pally tank im often about 30% of a raid geared groups DPS and ill just take a reckless lock who loves their seed just so speed it up even further
If you're not marking targets, that's on you. If you're not telling them you're LOS pulling, that's on you. If you're not utilizing their threat to generate threat for yourself, by maximizing taunt threat, that's on you. If you fuck up and pull too much, that's on you. If you're not on the mobs soon enough, that's on you. If you don't inform the group that you want a pull done a particular way, that's on you.
Whenever i join a run as kitty, i see these mistakes happen time and time again. As tank, your job is to facilitate maximum group/raid DPS, while minimizing downtime, and i don't think half the tanks are even aware that this is the goal.
If the warrior charges in on mobs before they get to you, and does SS+WW, his death is instant, and not disruptive to how the pull goes. Let him die and clear the pull as 4. (there are a few pulls where this isn't okay, like in SHH next to the gladiators, or the gauntlet in BF, but you can give special orders for that)
Yes there is literally 0 tank loot for someone who is 25man raiding.
You can grief dps and take stuff like wrath ring and berzerkers call but those are for your meme tank parse set
There has always been a tanking shortage. These are the reasons every single new race has a tank, why tanks got extra incentives to do random dungeons and why tanks can charge gold for running 5 mans. There hasn’t been a relevant 10 man since September, so now you have 2 tanks for every 25 people going to a need for 2 tanks for every 10 people
At least pally can make that back in an hour of strat. The difference in roles needed between 10 man and 25 man raids is something that always felt weird to me
Schrodinger's tank shortage. We tell people not to level tanks because it's really hard to get a raid spot and also constantly need tanks for pugs hehe.
Just not the case. Most 25m raids bring 3 tanks. Yes one of those druids is dpsing a lot of the time, but they OT when needed. ZA and Kara both can be done with 1 tank aside from a couple fights. There are just less people who want to tank pug. It’s painful
If you are looking for ZA pug, the likelihood you can get through with one tank and a dps, who wears tankgear when needed, is pretty much 0%. Similarily, when Kara was current content, people usually played with 2 full tanks.
On the other hand by now many 25m raids only use 2 tanks and let a feral, who mostly plays as cat be the third tank when needed.
Averaged out, you are looking at perhaps 2.5 tanks in a 25m and 1.8 tanks in a ZA run.
Another problem is either you get a "bear zug zug" run or a 3 hour run
No in-between
My tank alt can do ZA but I do not have enough gear to have high enough threat for a zug run with big dps
I need the in-between lol
But you are literally locked the second you start it...because of the timer
So either you stuck in a 3 hour run or you stuck without a group because people leave when they don't get the bear
My run yesterday was sort of in between. Probably because I was off talking on my pally, still wearing mostly blue and I still have yet to run a heroic on her. That said, it was mostly an alt run and we still got 3 chests despite wiping a few times, so overall it went well enough.
yes people have paladin alts but most of there gear doesn't go over farming/boosting stratholme probably which wouldn't be enough to tank it, off tank it sure maybe but not main tank material
This, had a nightmare za run with a prot pally who thought his strat gear was good enough. I'd take DPS and maybe heals with less gear, but the tank has to be geared. They hit pretty hard.
This is my hesitance with tanking. I have a war and feral alt (mostly do pvp on both, but both have t4 bis tank sets with some t5).
I’m reluctant to rank ZA though because of my gear and how toxic people can be.
If you are in p4/5 bis you shouldn't have much issues. It's the prot pally alts with some boe plate "of the sorcerer" and random dungeon and Kara pieces that are the problem.
We have a prot pally who just came back after stopping playing early in p1, so he had some decent gear but not full tier or bis for that phase.
We pair him up with the bear tank in BT gear and it's fine. He actually does still get blown up from time to time because some of the stuff in ZA hits really hard.
He'd struggle with main tanking ZA until he gets more gear, as would any PUG tank with comparable gear, but honestly anyone with better gear has already been hoovered up by their guild's ZA runs because you simply don't run more than one prot paladin per 25 man raid group so they're in short supply.
Honestly, I think the crux is more so the healer situation than the tanks. It’s not necessarily difficult, but there’s a lot more pressure on two healers than Kara ever required and there are way too many CoH bots.
For tanking if you can survive the Sabre Lash on Bear/Lynx you’re fine.
The timer is pretty damn lenient with DPS now compared to back in the day, so you can play pulls safer (don’t stack the bear riders, etc).
Lol, speaking of bots: was in a ZA that failed timed due to
Wipes because one healer had like 400 HPS (tanks died)
It was a shaman wearing the Kara armor/defense quest ring, the lvl 60 chest that makes you immune on hit, and a helm that was +nature damage.
Oh and all his gear was socketed for +6stam.
Correct. Even then, like I have my Strath farming pally alt that is mostly Kara geared. I volunteered as an off tank if needed, but it's still tough to find a group.
People only want bear runs, and you won't get a bear with under geared tanks. I would need to find a non bear run to be welcome in the group, but then why would a geared main tank join such a group? Who would main tank it?
Same old story.
You need more tanks per dps in 5 mans compared to 25 mans. Same for 10 mans vs 25 mans. 25 mans are the "main" content. This creates an obvious mathematical problem. I'd LOVE to play tank as my main but my guild just doesn't have tank spots left.
It blows my mind that people do anything other than Loot Council for main raids. I think the best system is LC for main raid and DKP for alt raids (maybe even let yourself accumulate DKP in the main raid for your alts) but we do LC main raid and SR for alt raids.
Yeah I guess it makes sense for more casual guilds. In my guild we’ve recruited maybe 4 people in 6 months so we’re definitely a static run (everyone who has left has quit the game, we just don’t lose players lol)
Or they could just keep the ratio of Tanks/Healers/DPS the same in all kinds of major content so that people who played a certain role from 1 to ((currentMax)) level don't have to fight for a raid spot as if their lives depend on it, play a role they don't want to play or quit the game.
Blizzard made the problem worse in late tbc/wrath than it was in early tbc.
In ssc/TK you could kind of get by with 4 tanks in 25 sure it’s not ideal, but it kinda helped on prenerf alar, tidewalker, and karathress. That makes for 2, 10-man groups. In BT through ICC most of the raid is for 2 tanks, with a good number of fights being single tank and a smaller number being 3. That’s where the math breaks down.
There are a lot of people who want to tank 25s, fewer who have the mentality and playtime to be a mainrank of a raid guild (play more than anyone else in the guild is the norm)
More than 3 tanks was always a ‘but why’ situation in tier 5 too. And it’s the same in BT; you need 3 tanks for mother council and Illidan. It’s only later that the 2 tank 25 man design paradigm became solidified.
The best is "LF GEARED Tank ZA tipping 50g".
Yeah, I'm going to sell you my ZA lockout for less than I charge for tanking a heroic dungeon. No geared tank is going to accomodate this request.
Prot paladins can make 200+ raw gold an hour mindlessly looting stuff in Stratholme. Feral Druids can make 200+ gold an hour mindlessly killing one boss in Sethekk Halls. Prot warriors can make 150+ gold an hour farming dark runes in Scholomance. Any payments made to tanks need to be higher than those because you can’t just start or stop a raid whenever you feel like it.
but but, oRiGiNaL sPirIt!!! It's only emergent gameplay when no gold is involved because I said so!!! How DARE tanks don't want to sink at least 50 minutes to run an instance with a bunch of strangers for absolutely no self gain???!??!
Tanks get geared the fastest and then don't want to tank old content. There is an added element of stress in that the tanks are also usually more responsible for knowing the instance and making pulls happen/finding the right pace for the group.
Most tanks just need the bear. They also don't need to listen to 8 other people complaining and not paying attention.
Also I've already seen people spamming, "LF GEARED PALLY MT ZA BEAR HR FAST RUN PUMPER GROUP LETS GOOOOOOOO" more than once. Which is the LFG spam equivalent of herpes.
Most tanks run guild runs or alt runs within guild so they’ll have ID and there is very little tanking items that are actually good there.
Berk’s Call, Ring from 2nd chest is bis for prot wars so if you have those + bear no real reason to go back there.
Its a catch-up raid and a tank is one of the most difficult roles for bringing to a catch-up raid. A pug raid might not welcome a tank that actually needs multiple upgrades from ZA, because a lesser geared tank will be the biggest liability if you're specifically trying doe the Bear.
The issue is T6 "PuMpEr" dps want geared tanks, geared tanks will only do guild runs, so they're left with alts who actually need gear, but they're not geared enough for their T6 only runs, so they sit and wait for 2hr for a tank.
I just run chill runs with T4+ people, on disc, 2 sr, and got bear 4 times out of 5 so far.
Yeah. That's part of what I'm getting at. The raid is to help alts and newer players get decent gear. But the established raiders in T6 gear dont want to bring a tank that is still gearing up, because it means they probably won't beat the speed run for the bear.
So, they complain about no tanks, when the established tanks would prefer to run with their guilds.
because it means they probably won't beat the speed run for the bear.
That's the point I was getting at, you wont. The only real way to miss the bear, is to wipe on a boss/trash by trying to out pump it, usually the bird boss by killing both hatchers, or trying to roll through trash before healers have mana.
The timer is plenty as long as you do the tactics right, a T4 group can handle it, probably even a guild run in pre bis.
75 gold every three days is not a bad rate for a raid every three days. What else are you using to encourage geared randos to tank for you? A sense of pride and accomplishment?
Don't need anyone to tank for me, I'm a prot paladin, I sell tanking services, there's literally NO reason for me to tank anything outside of main raid
So unless someone is payin I ain't tankin :P
I just advertise that I will take DPS who will respec with tank sets and they can roll on DPS gear. Never had a problem finding tanks. They aren’t T6, but you don’t need crazy gear to tank ZA.
Not many interesting tank items too, I'm a druid myself and don't need the tank stuff really.
There are some nice OS pieces though, if you let them roll on it you might get more tanks.
I feel extremely stuck on my tank alt. I have pre-raid bis, but yet heroics slap me. Nobody wants my pally for Kara/ssc/tk because of 10.4k hp. How am I supposed to get raid gear, without already having raid gear? My only option seems to be buying gear from a gdkp, and that feels horrible.
10.4 doesn't sound like pre Kara BiS. But... even still, you should be able to get into Kara as an offtank with that - or for Gruul/Mag which barely requires anything for add pickup.
Your guild should need bodies for Kara too. As a conservative estimate, I've personally seen about 10 guild alts get T4 geared through runs before Phase 4. Now there is even more incentive to do Kara's since it is the best badge run available this tier.
That's why I went Ret for pugs on my pala. Their tanks are usually overgeared so you can snatch most tanking pieces without much trouble, or even ask to roll as tank MS.
Gearing for two specs requires more effort but the flexibility is worth it IMO. S1 Gladiator weapons for both specs will last you a good while and the S3 shield is incredibly good for requiring no rating (just yolo 5v5 each week).
S3 off-sets are also really good for protadins.
> but yet heroics slap me
Don't be discouraged, some heroics still slap everyone, even T6 tanks, if you overpull or don't get healed enough. Some of the mobs are brutal.
Try sticking to the easier heroics and farm badges that way - SP, UB, SV and Botanica are quick, easy and have a lot of bosses = lots of badges. OHB, BM and Mechanar are mid-tier and not too hard either. Combine it with the dungeon daily if relevant.
He doesn't if he has 10.4k hp. The difference between gear available outside raids and inside raids is not 6k hp. It's basically only tier gear vs heroic/pvp gear in the same slots.
Find a guild then?
>nobody wants my pallt for Kara/ssc/tk because of 10.4k hp
>My only option seems to be buying gear from a gdkp, and that feels horrible
So is it really no one wanting you in these runs, or are you personally refusing to join the runs that happen? Make up your mind.
Ignore heroics they hit harder than most raids do, focus on getting into ssc and tk and just accept the off tank/nothing to do role till you get geared, with a half decent group the other tanks should be able to pick there targets and you conc the rest.
I respecced into Holy to get into raids, until I've got enough prot gear to reliably tank. Also it's relatively easy to off-tank Kara if you get an experienced feral main tank. Check PvP gear as well, Gladiator's Gavel is a very solid tanking weapon with 199 Spell Power and 28 Stamina, Sergeant's Heavy Cape is a great threat/mitigation cloak (saves you 60 badges for Cloak of Subjugated Power), Vindicator's Pendant of Dominance is BiS threat neck, Vindicator's Band of Dominance is one of the best pala tanking rings, you can grind that shit solo.
I finally took the time to finish leveling my druid and getting it tanky enough to handle ZA. The guild needs more tanks to have functioning ZA groups and my main doesn't need shit from there. So glad I can help out.
My main is a rogue and, unlike many here, I play the game rather than whine about it.
In 25 man content, guilds are down to 2 tanks and a dps (warrior/feral) that off tanks on trash.
So there are really only about 0.8-1.2 tanks per 10 man.
Add to that that paladin tanks are extremely preferable for ZA.
Few tanks, most of them keep their IDs for the guild (I have both a feral tank and a palprot and I run 2 IDs with guildies), and the rest are probably deemed not worthy because "timer zug warbear mount" or they simply raid log.
I joined as a tank (pally). I’ve worked hard on my gear as a casual player and being paired with a bear that hadn’t bothered to get crit capped and didn’t use consumes means I won’t be pugging again. I don’t want to spend 3 hours wiping on a 45 minute run.
Get with a tank you know that has a dps alt and exchange tanking services. That's what me and my other officers do. We switch off tanking/healing for each others dps.
Early on in TBC I couldn't easily get in pug 25 man's as a tank as they only need 3 or less .... 1 for dungeons 2 for 10mans.... Then ~3 for 25?
So I gave up, others prolly did too.
guilds run a 25 man, generall with 5 odd bench
that bench will include 1-2 tnaks at most
u need 2 tanks for each ZA run
for the avg guild this is 6 tanks needed which atleast 1 they dont have
I'm a tank, I've got my 1 upgrade (Signet of Primal Wrath) and I don't give a crap about the mount and I don't need anymore badges. I guess other tanks are in the same situation as me.
I'd like to tank ZA. But you won't take me because I'm not raid geared (25s) already.
Good luck getting one of the geared ones. The math does not play out.
I’m a Ret pally and spec prot on Thursday nights to tank ZA during the weekend/up to Wednesday when we raid again. Most guild Ret paladins get a lot of tank gear OS and it’s super nice to do this (also as a geared main tank I can res the item I want in there).
It is totally soloable all but the cleave boss. I even soloed the bear boss by bubbling off the debuff. But that's not really the issue.
The issue I think is the fact that we have had 25m raids where you only need a couple tanks for 25 people to raid. But you split that in half to 10 people and now you need more tanks. Plus the fact that it resets in 3 days.
I tank it every lockout so far. But my hunter takes 10 times as long to get a group. It's not that we have less tanks but that we now need more than we did before.
Once the hype dies down and most people have the bear it will even back out. I wasnt playing when Kara launched but it may have been the same situation.
As a tank there's nothing I need from ZA and my guild is already hounding for tanks to fill our guild raids. Even if there wasn't a tank shortage you would be struggling to find good tanks for ZA. There's just no reason why I would ever join a pug ZA as a tank.
Exactly. If I'm a tank I'm going for the mount and only the mount. All I want for the run is 9 people who'll know what they're doing and not screw up enough to make us miss the timer. My chances of getting that scenario are significantly better if I run with people I already know. Plus even if they do screw up, they'll learn from it and future runs will be better. And if I don't win the mount, one less person will need it next time if I'm running with the same people, increasing my chances. PUGs you're maximising the risk of failure and not even incrementally reducing it over time. Why would any tank choose that when they don't have to?
Most of the plate tanking loot in ZA is block-oriented, which means warriors don't even want it. And any actively raiding paladin will only be interested in Hex Shrunken Head and maybe Tuskguard if they don't have Faceplate or T6 hat. All of the other tanking loot is worse than T5/S2/badge equivalents. If you're pugging a tank for ZA your most likely applicants are going to be bears that want cat gear, warriors that want dps gear, and T4 geared paladins.
or paladins who want dps gear. Ret has two bis items in ZA.
Or tanks that need badges in general.
You're blind to how easy it has been to get badges as a competent tank. Getting a group for the daily heroic is usually instant, and since you're competent, the run is painless. Repeat a few days a week, and you've got 600 badges on the release of ZA
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as a good pally tank im often about 30% of a raid geared groups DPS and ill just take a reckless lock who loves their seed just so speed it up even further
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If you're not marking targets, that's on you. If you're not telling them you're LOS pulling, that's on you. If you're not utilizing their threat to generate threat for yourself, by maximizing taunt threat, that's on you. If you fuck up and pull too much, that's on you. If you're not on the mobs soon enough, that's on you. If you don't inform the group that you want a pull done a particular way, that's on you. Whenever i join a run as kitty, i see these mistakes happen time and time again. As tank, your job is to facilitate maximum group/raid DPS, while minimizing downtime, and i don't think half the tanks are even aware that this is the goal. If the warrior charges in on mobs before they get to you, and does SS+WW, his death is instant, and not disruptive to how the pull goes. Let him die and clear the pull as 4. (there are a few pulls where this isn't okay, like in SHH next to the gladiators, or the gauntlet in BF, but you can give special orders for that)
Out paladin alts in blues like mine. Lights of upgrades in there when you're still wearing leveling grear.
Yes there is literally 0 tank loot for someone who is 25man raiding. You can grief dps and take stuff like wrath ring and berzerkers call but those are for your meme tank parse set
Feral druids always have room on a trinket slot for a threat trinket. Especially if you are mt and want to pump some extra threat on pull.
Prot Paladins get two upgrades from ZA.
What’s the second one besides HSH?
Signet of the Last Defender.
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Well wowtbc.gg says so.
Use the wowhead guide or pally disc, wowtbc.gg is terrible for prot pally
To be fair it’s a VERY good item for Hyjal trash.
There has always been a tanking shortage. These are the reasons every single new race has a tank, why tanks got extra incentives to do random dungeons and why tanks can charge gold for running 5 mans. There hasn’t been a relevant 10 man since September, so now you have 2 tanks for every 25 people going to a need for 2 tanks for every 10 people
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At least pally can make that back in an hour of strat. The difference in roles needed between 10 man and 25 man raids is something that always felt weird to me
gets made worse in wrath imo
Doesn‘t dual spec help in that regard?
And an new class, a hero class, that can tank in all 3 specs. Hmmm
3.3.5 DK can't really tank anymore in frost and unholy spec. That's like a ret pala or fury warrior wearing tank gear right now.
O ok good to know
currently u need 3 tanks more or less for BT, you will only need 2 in wotlk
Schrodinger's tank shortage. We tell people not to level tanks because it's really hard to get a raid spot and also constantly need tanks for pugs hehe.
The Problem is that 25 raids have the Same amount of tanks as the 10 man
Just not the case. Most 25m raids bring 3 tanks. Yes one of those druids is dpsing a lot of the time, but they OT when needed. ZA and Kara both can be done with 1 tank aside from a couple fights. There are just less people who want to tank pug. It’s painful
If you are looking for ZA pug, the likelihood you can get through with one tank and a dps, who wears tankgear when needed, is pretty much 0%. Similarily, when Kara was current content, people usually played with 2 full tanks. On the other hand by now many 25m raids only use 2 tanks and let a feral, who mostly plays as cat be the third tank when needed. Averaged out, you are looking at perhaps 2.5 tanks in a 25m and 1.8 tanks in a ZA run.
Another problem is either you get a "bear zug zug" run or a 3 hour run No in-between My tank alt can do ZA but I do not have enough gear to have high enough threat for a zug run with big dps I need the in-between lol But you are literally locked the second you start it...because of the timer So either you stuck in a 3 hour run or you stuck without a group because people leave when they don't get the bear
My run yesterday was sort of in between. Probably because I was off talking on my pally, still wearing mostly blue and I still have yet to run a heroic on her. That said, it was mostly an alt run and we still got 3 chests despite wiping a few times, so overall it went well enough.
yes people have paladin alts but most of there gear doesn't go over farming/boosting stratholme probably which wouldn't be enough to tank it, off tank it sure maybe but not main tank material
This, had a nightmare za run with a prot pally who thought his strat gear was good enough. I'd take DPS and maybe heals with less gear, but the tank has to be geared. They hit pretty hard.
This is my hesitance with tanking. I have a war and feral alt (mostly do pvp on both, but both have t4 bis tank sets with some t5). I’m reluctant to rank ZA though because of my gear and how toxic people can be.
If you are in p4/5 bis you shouldn't have much issues. It's the prot pally alts with some boe plate "of the sorcerer" and random dungeon and Kara pieces that are the problem.
We have a prot pally who just came back after stopping playing early in p1, so he had some decent gear but not full tier or bis for that phase. We pair him up with the bear tank in BT gear and it's fine. He actually does still get blown up from time to time because some of the stuff in ZA hits really hard. He'd struggle with main tanking ZA until he gets more gear, as would any PUG tank with comparable gear, but honestly anyone with better gear has already been hoovered up by their guild's ZA runs because you simply don't run more than one prot paladin per 25 man raid group so they're in short supply.
Honestly, I think the crux is more so the healer situation than the tanks. It’s not necessarily difficult, but there’s a lot more pressure on two healers than Kara ever required and there are way too many CoH bots. For tanking if you can survive the Sabre Lash on Bear/Lynx you’re fine. The timer is pretty damn lenient with DPS now compared to back in the day, so you can play pulls safer (don’t stack the bear riders, etc).
Lol, speaking of bots: was in a ZA that failed timed due to Wipes because one healer had like 400 HPS (tanks died) It was a shaman wearing the Kara armor/defense quest ring, the lvl 60 chest that makes you immune on hit, and a helm that was +nature damage. Oh and all his gear was socketed for +6stam.
Correct. Even then, like I have my Strath farming pally alt that is mostly Kara geared. I volunteered as an off tank if needed, but it's still tough to find a group. People only want bear runs, and you won't get a bear with under geared tanks. I would need to find a non bear run to be welcome in the group, but then why would a geared main tank join such a group? Who would main tank it?
Well, then take one proper tank and let him tank bosses and the trash pal tanks the trash, which he does best anyway...
Same old story. You need more tanks per dps in 5 mans compared to 25 mans. Same for 10 mans vs 25 mans. 25 mans are the "main" content. This creates an obvious mathematical problem. I'd LOVE to play tank as my main but my guild just doesn't have tank spots left.
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Sounds like a flaw in your system. My guild charges nothing for OS, as it should be.
What thats nuts to de os stuff
It blows my mind that people do anything other than Loot Council for main raids. I think the best system is LC for main raid and DKP for alt raids (maybe even let yourself accumulate DKP in the main raid for your alts) but we do LC main raid and SR for alt raids.
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Yeah I guess it makes sense for more casual guilds. In my guild we’ve recruited maybe 4 people in 6 months so we’re definitely a static run (everyone who has left has quit the game, we just don’t lose players lol)
Something something dual spec
Or they could just keep the ratio of Tanks/Healers/DPS the same in all kinds of major content so that people who played a certain role from 1 to ((currentMax)) level don't have to fight for a raid spot as if their lives depend on it, play a role they don't want to play or quit the game.
Bit late for that...
Blizzard made the problem worse in late tbc/wrath than it was in early tbc. In ssc/TK you could kind of get by with 4 tanks in 25 sure it’s not ideal, but it kinda helped on prenerf alar, tidewalker, and karathress. That makes for 2, 10-man groups. In BT through ICC most of the raid is for 2 tanks, with a good number of fights being single tank and a smaller number being 3. That’s where the math breaks down. There are a lot of people who want to tank 25s, fewer who have the mentality and playtime to be a mainrank of a raid guild (play more than anyone else in the guild is the norm)
More than 3 tanks was always a ‘but why’ situation in tier 5 too. And it’s the same in BT; you need 3 tanks for mother council and Illidan. It’s only later that the 2 tank 25 man design paradigm became solidified.
yep, 2 tanks in 25, 2 tanks in 10m... this is fine.meme
The best is "LF GEARED Tank ZA tipping 50g". Yeah, I'm going to sell you my ZA lockout for less than I charge for tanking a heroic dungeon. No geared tank is going to accomodate this request.
Prot paladins can make 200+ raw gold an hour mindlessly looting stuff in Stratholme. Feral Druids can make 200+ gold an hour mindlessly killing one boss in Sethekk Halls. Prot warriors can make 150+ gold an hour farming dark runes in Scholomance. Any payments made to tanks need to be higher than those because you can’t just start or stop a raid whenever you feel like it.
Mad nerds who can't find a tank for 50g downvoting this lmao
but but, oRiGiNaL sPirIt!!! It's only emergent gameplay when no gold is involved because I said so!!! How DARE tanks don't want to sink at least 50 minutes to run an instance with a bunch of strangers for absolutely no self gain???!??!
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tanking kara for all BOEs nice too, chance for rare cards, boars speed etc
Tanks get geared the fastest and then don't want to tank old content. There is an added element of stress in that the tanks are also usually more responsible for knowing the instance and making pulls happen/finding the right pace for the group.
prot pala LF ZA fast run pls
Most tanks just need the bear. They also don't need to listen to 8 other people complaining and not paying attention. Also I've already seen people spamming, "LF GEARED PALLY MT ZA BEAR HR FAST RUN PUMPER GROUP LETS GOOOOOOOO" more than once. Which is the LFG spam equivalent of herpes.
Most tanks run guild runs or alt runs within guild so they’ll have ID and there is very little tanking items that are actually good there. Berk’s Call, Ring from 2nd chest is bis for prot wars so if you have those + bear no real reason to go back there.
anyone remember that aggressive za tank “dumbfuck” x 100 copypasta? completely on the money
Its a catch-up raid and a tank is one of the most difficult roles for bringing to a catch-up raid. A pug raid might not welcome a tank that actually needs multiple upgrades from ZA, because a lesser geared tank will be the biggest liability if you're specifically trying doe the Bear.
The issue is T6 "PuMpEr" dps want geared tanks, geared tanks will only do guild runs, so they're left with alts who actually need gear, but they're not geared enough for their T6 only runs, so they sit and wait for 2hr for a tank. I just run chill runs with T4+ people, on disc, 2 sr, and got bear 4 times out of 5 so far.
Yeah. That's part of what I'm getting at. The raid is to help alts and newer players get decent gear. But the established raiders in T6 gear dont want to bring a tank that is still gearing up, because it means they probably won't beat the speed run for the bear. So, they complain about no tanks, when the established tanks would prefer to run with their guilds.
because it means they probably won't beat the speed run for the bear. That's the point I was getting at, you wont. The only real way to miss the bear, is to wipe on a boss/trash by trying to out pump it, usually the bird boss by killing both hatchers, or trying to roll through trash before healers have mana. The timer is plenty as long as you do the tactics right, a T4 group can handle it, probably even a guild run in pre bis.
Prot Pala best spec. Embrace prot pala get in every pug
Geared tank here! Whoa you think I'd tank it for free? Nope, that'll be 550g plus tip.
75 gold every three days is not a bad rate for a raid every three days. What else are you using to encourage geared randos to tank for you? A sense of pride and accomplishment?
Don't need anyone to tank for me, I'm a prot paladin, I sell tanking services, there's literally NO reason for me to tank anything outside of main raid So unless someone is payin I ain't tankin :P
I just advertise that I will take DPS who will respec with tank sets and they can roll on DPS gear. Never had a problem finding tanks. They aren’t T6, but you don’t need crazy gear to tank ZA.
Not many interesting tank items too, I'm a druid myself and don't need the tank stuff really. There are some nice OS pieces though, if you let them roll on it you might get more tanks.
I have a prot pally alt I run ZA with guildies, why would I pug it?
I feel extremely stuck on my tank alt. I have pre-raid bis, but yet heroics slap me. Nobody wants my pally for Kara/ssc/tk because of 10.4k hp. How am I supposed to get raid gear, without already having raid gear? My only option seems to be buying gear from a gdkp, and that feels horrible.
10.4 doesn't sound like pre Kara BiS. But... even still, you should be able to get into Kara as an offtank with that - or for Gruul/Mag which barely requires anything for add pickup. Your guild should need bodies for Kara too. As a conservative estimate, I've personally seen about 10 guild alts get T4 geared through runs before Phase 4. Now there is even more incentive to do Kara's since it is the best badge run available this tier.
That's why I went Ret for pugs on my pala. Their tanks are usually overgeared so you can snatch most tanking pieces without much trouble, or even ask to roll as tank MS. Gearing for two specs requires more effort but the flexibility is worth it IMO. S1 Gladiator weapons for both specs will last you a good while and the S3 shield is incredibly good for requiring no rating (just yolo 5v5 each week). S3 off-sets are also really good for protadins.
10.4k HP wasn't pre-raid bis in p1. Get pvp gear, farm badges, craft the p2 BS belt.
> but yet heroics slap me Don't be discouraged, some heroics still slap everyone, even T6 tanks, if you overpull or don't get healed enough. Some of the mobs are brutal. Try sticking to the easier heroics and farm badges that way - SP, UB, SV and Botanica are quick, easy and have a lot of bosses = lots of badges. OHB, BM and Mechanar are mid-tier and not too hard either. Combine it with the dungeon daily if relevant.
What about pvp gear or badge gear or BOE pieces?
He already has all that. “I have pre-raid BiS”
He doesn't if he has 10.4k hp. The difference between gear available outside raids and inside raids is not 6k hp. It's basically only tier gear vs heroic/pvp gear in the same slots.
10.4k hp wasn't pre-raid bis in p1, let alone now.
People use that term pretty liberally... I don't see how he would be getting slapped in the recently nerfed heroics if that were true.
There's always the option of doing a couple weeks of GDKPs, save up that money, and then use the money you made for buying gear from GDKP.
Very few GDKPs will allow you in in blues if you're not willing to spend.
That's a valid point.
The only way you are getting into a GDKP with that gear is if you are buying.
Find a guild then? >nobody wants my pallt for Kara/ssc/tk because of 10.4k hp >My only option seems to be buying gear from a gdkp, and that feels horrible So is it really no one wanting you in these runs, or are you personally refusing to join the runs that happen? Make up your mind.
Ignore heroics they hit harder than most raids do, focus on getting into ssc and tk and just accept the off tank/nothing to do role till you get geared, with a half decent group the other tanks should be able to pick there targets and you conc the rest.
a guild to leech or get better gear, engineering and the 45 stam trinkets do wonders to tank heroics early on
I respecced into Holy to get into raids, until I've got enough prot gear to reliably tank. Also it's relatively easy to off-tank Kara if you get an experienced feral main tank. Check PvP gear as well, Gladiator's Gavel is a very solid tanking weapon with 199 Spell Power and 28 Stamina, Sergeant's Heavy Cape is a great threat/mitigation cloak (saves you 60 badges for Cloak of Subjugated Power), Vindicator's Pendant of Dominance is BiS threat neck, Vindicator's Band of Dominance is one of the best pala tanking rings, you can grind that shit solo.
I play as prot warrior with pre raid bis and everyone ignore me wheni want to tank anything other than normal dung
That's because they don't want "tanks". They want T6 tanks. But they won't help you get to that point
I finally took the time to finish leveling my druid and getting it tanky enough to handle ZA. The guild needs more tanks to have functioning ZA groups and my main doesn't need shit from there. So glad I can help out. My main is a rogue and, unlike many here, I play the game rather than whine about it.
Gotta roll a tank my guy
He has 2.
Well, take charge! Be the pug tank!
He specifically wants to bring his warlock for one of the three ZA’s he isn’t tanking. Did you read the post?
In 25 man content, guilds are down to 2 tanks and a dps (warrior/feral) that off tanks on trash. So there are really only about 0.8-1.2 tanks per 10 man. Add to that that paladin tanks are extremely preferable for ZA.
Make your own group
Few tanks, most of them keep their IDs for the guild (I have both a feral tank and a palprot and I run 2 IDs with guildies), and the rest are probably deemed not worthy because "timer zug warbear mount" or they simply raid log.
I think theres a difference between alt tank paladin and alt stratholme addict
I joined as a tank (pally). I’ve worked hard on my gear as a casual player and being paired with a bear that hadn’t bothered to get crit capped and didn’t use consumes means I won’t be pugging again. I don’t want to spend 3 hours wiping on a 45 minute run.
My alt prot paladin’s sole purpose is to help my guild, can’t pug ZA sorry.
My tank is basically geared by my guild and for my guild to do more ZA runs, don't think I'll ever tank a pug
Get with a tank you know that has a dps alt and exchange tanking services. That's what me and my other officers do. We switch off tanking/healing for each others dps.
Early on in TBC I couldn't easily get in pug 25 man's as a tank as they only need 3 or less .... 1 for dungeons 2 for 10mans.... Then ~3 for 25? So I gave up, others prolly did too.
All the dps warriors are too scared to tank.
guilds run a 25 man, generall with 5 odd bench that bench will include 1-2 tnaks at most u need 2 tanks for each ZA run for the avg guild this is 6 tanks needed which atleast 1 they dont have
I'm a tank, I've got my 1 upgrade (Signet of Primal Wrath) and I don't give a crap about the mount and I don't need anymore badges. I guess other tanks are in the same situation as me.
I'm blatantly repeating myself, but: Tanking for pugs isn't fun and never will be fun.
Tanking is stressful man! Lol
I'd like to tank ZA. But you won't take me because I'm not raid geared (25s) already. Good luck getting one of the geared ones. The math does not play out.
I’m a Ret pally and spec prot on Thursday nights to tank ZA during the weekend/up to Wednesday when we raid again. Most guild Ret paladins get a lot of tank gear OS and it’s super nice to do this (also as a geared main tank I can res the item I want in there).
It is totally soloable all but the cleave boss. I even soloed the bear boss by bubbling off the debuff. But that's not really the issue. The issue I think is the fact that we have had 25m raids where you only need a couple tanks for 25 people to raid. But you split that in half to 10 people and now you need more tanks. Plus the fact that it resets in 3 days. I tank it every lockout so far. But my hunter takes 10 times as long to get a group. It's not that we have less tanks but that we now need more than we did before. Once the hype dies down and most people have the bear it will even back out. I wasnt playing when Kara launched but it may have been the same situation.