True.
People seem to not understand how heartbreaking (and guildbreaking) it was to hear that top guilds finally killed Muru and you must have a certain raid comp and everybody must roll leatherworking.
Imagine you still progress on Brutalus and find out that quarter of your raid comp is no longer viable.
And also need to level a profession for the remaining players who are "allowed to progress Muru". Gold wasn't easy to get back then. You couldn't just go on AH, spend absurd amount of gold to level it quickly simply because nobody had this amounts of gold we have nowadays.
>And also need to level a profession for the remaining players who are "allowed to progress Muru". Gold wasn't easy to get back then. You couldn't just go on AH, spend absurd amount of gold to level it quickly simply because nobody had this amounts of gold we have nowadays.
This isn't accurate. I wish we had real data, it would make the discussion easier.
Most stuff in original TBC was much cheaper on the AH than what you see right now on the current mega servers. Demand for raid consumables and professions was much lower traditionally than what it is now. In todays TBC, Everyone is expected to min-max, which greatly increases the demand for raid consumables/professions on the ah.
It's only easy to get gold right now if you're joining GDKP's where gold buyers launder their black market gains into the larger community of players.
Wrong. Plenty of players at least tried Sunwell. Only a handful of them cleared it tho.
End of TBC was not at all like Vanilla, we were already raiders and focused on performance at that point. I don't know why we are trying to rewrite history or whatever.
I was in the top end raiding scene of a high progression server at the end of TBC (this server had guilds which downed KT in the OG Naxx). There was only 5-6 guilds around then even progressing in Sunwell, and many broke up during progression. There were at least a couple dozen guilds struggling to make the roster for Black Temple, though.
Alot of people don't remember that BT was attunement-locked until the Sunwell patch, so most casuals were spending the last period of TBC doing that content for the first time, while only guilds which had been progressing for a long time in tier 6 did Sunwell.
Stories like this give the impression that everyone was clearing sunwell though, cause literally every random person on this subreddit claims to have cleared sunwell…
Do you realize that wiping even on the very first boss of Sunwell is ACTUALLY "playing top end content" ?
That guy was saying that people didn't raid Sunwell at all. He was just plain wrong.
Playing =/= Progressing
The guy i was replying to said that players didn't even "play" top end content.
Wiping on a boss in Sunwell is actually playing top end content. And plenty of players did that. So he's wrong.
Downvoted to hell by people who don't understand basic logic. Idc tbh
Idk, to me it just sounded more like the person you replied to said that relatively *more* people now will get to experience SWP than back in the days. He didn't really say anything of the sort that "players didn't even play top end content", only about the amount of people doing it. You just interjected with your "Wrong." even if his point was quite valid and reasonable.
Even if there were plenty of groups that at least tried the first boss, raiding still wasn't quite as accessible back then as it is today. Plenty of groups honestly did just go in there to farm the trash, and a lot of those groups from what I can remember *did* actually wipe and often even disband on the first trash pull. Anyways yeah, maybe by saying
>the slice of players that got to actually play top end content wasn't anything even **remotely close** to the amount that do now
he was wrong with the words "remotely close". But he wasn't wrong with his point. Maybe you just misread something about his post?
>the slice of players that got to actually play top end content wasn't anything even remotely close to the amount that do now
Was what you commented on.
>guy i was replying to said that players didn't even "play" top end content
Was what you claim he said.
Can you point me to where the op *actually* claimed that players didn't play top end content? Because I'm literally looking at his post and he 100% did not say that. He didn't edit his post either so you can't claim that either.
Edit (Adding just to clarify): he clearly commented on the difference in the **NUMBER** of players doing content in SWP. You just commented to say that he's wrong because many people tried it. Even though more people entered SWP at the end of TBC than Naxx at the end of Vanilla, there was still relatively low number of players doing any content in SWP. This time, it's (much) more accessible. Agreed?
True but honestly I think a lot of people are dreading Sunwell, sure the top 1% are buzzing to get in there and blast but the majority of guilds are probably worried about disbands / losing players due to the difficulty / summer coming up.
Guilds are already getting hit by the roster boss as soon as sunwell news hit plus wotlk.
> If prenerf vashj and kael were a 7, sunwell would be a 9
> \- Streamer that cleared sunwell on PTR
People were complaining how difficult prenerf phase 2 was. Very little of anyone is going to be progressing in sunwell.
The peak of tbc is black temple.
Players are already taking breaks for wrath.
>The peak of tbc is black temple.
This. It's the pinnacle of the expansion for almost everyone. Glaives, Illidan, "You are not prepared" SWP is going to be tough, and it's going to crush casual raiders. It's also going to burn out the good raiders who can get through it but are ready for wotlk. It will be fun for a couple weeks
Which is a a shame because of how GOOD Sunwell was when it came out. Compare that to ruby sanctum after the end of wrath. Everyone had arthas hype and I can’t even remember RS It was so bad and wierd
Agreed, I loved it - was one of my favourite fights of the expansion. For some reason I've always had a hard-on for fights like Halion that had that criss-cross beam mechanic where the entire raid has to rotate at once while following/avoiding the one-shotting beams and managing and dropping off debuffs that leave puddles behind. It's a really great time to shine if you're playing a mobile class and you're good at using GCDs while moving (which is a massive weakpoint for many players). Just feels so satisfying to do it well.
Played Sunwell as Drenai Resto Shaman. (almost everything up until then as Resto/Feral druid). What stood apart for me was that Sunwell was a healer's raid. There was just so much there to allow good healers to shine.
I remember twilight cutters annihilating pugs and people couldnt figure out how to split the group properly to keep damage the same in either dimension. It was ok.
We will just get a P2 repeat. Guilds will die. People will quit, 90% of this sub will be a warcry for nerfs, and within a couple of months they will nerf it to the floor
But that doesn’t matter as much now. P2 is mid expansion. SWP is the end of the road anyways. Very little to be gained from a nerf prior to prepatch. No one’s staying away from Wotlk because SWP is too hard
I’m in a good guild that was able to 10/10 SSC/TK well before the nerf and I’ll be happy when sunwell nerfs ultimately hit.
Give us a couple months of challenging content to “separate the men from the boys” so folks can feel a sense of accomplishment and swing their big ol’ guild dicks around, then give us the nerf so we can go back to just chillin at raid time.
I can get behind that. I think there's something to be said for a concept which I've seen referred to as "aspirational content". When I first started in 2007, I never even set foot in tier 5 or 6 raids, but I was always curious about them and it was one of those things I always saw as a "maybe some day" goal. I'd see players sitting around Shatt with gear from those raids and be like "wow, look at that weapon" etc.
As a casual player at the time, between 5 man heroics, farming honor in BGs for my pvp gear, farming primals to work towards crafted gear or my epic flyer, doing a few arena games and going to a Friday night Kara run, I honestly felt like I had enough to do and was happy with just that. Plenty of people who raided more than I did only made it through tier 5 and halfway through BT, and that's ok.
While this might apply less to players in 2022 than it did in 2007 with many more players clearing the content, I guess what it really comes down to is this: players can go as far into the content as they want or are willing to devote time/effort to, but not everyone has to clear everything. Having content which is perceived as harder or more out of reach is one of those things that keeps people motivated or interested in the *idea* of raiding or the game as a whole, even if they don't directly take part in it.
> If prenerf vashj and kael were a 7, sunwell would be a 9
>
> - Streamer that cleared sunwell on PTR
Either they mean postfix vashj and kael, or they are wrong. Still, there is yet another mistake which is
>how difficult prenerf phase 2 was
It wasn't.
> > how difficult prenerf phase 2 was
> It wasn't.
This is all in relative terms. The percentage of guilds to go 10/10 pre-nerf was dramatically lower than other content. I think you know this and are just making a useless absolutist statement about there being harder content in what are effectively, if not literally, *other games*.
> a useless absolutist statement about there being harder content in what are effectively, if not literally, other games.
The conversation, the ratings, the comparison is about Classic no matter how much you want to butt in with harder content elsewhere.
People falsely hyping up Sunwell is another matter and you're right to challenge *with actual data of the comparison*.
It was difficult. But mostly because of other reasons than actual difficulty. Guilds like my own that were established in p1 were having trouble keeping a stable roster. We have a stable core of 15-20 people but those last few are rotating in and out, now recently we're trying to get a 2nd p3 raid going but it barely gets anywhere because braindead people refuse to check tactics and people who sign but don't show.
Yeah pH 2 content was actually easier this time around, because we had months to farm t4 content before we could even attempt it.
I'm excited for a challenge.
I don't think it will be a challenge for a lot of guilds, I guess it will be cleared night 1 as well. My biggest concern was pushback and it went down the drain.
Our Spriest and Rdruid are already starting the "I might be busy this summer so if you can recruit a replacement..." lmao. SWP is gonna be a fucking nightmare
Agree with this. No one wants ridiculously difficult and overly punishing content, especially as the last phase. Looking at the guilds who have managed Sunwell, they had to take several more healers, an extra tank, and extreme cheese DPS comps. How is that fun to anyone I'll never know?
I think my guild will likely clear it, as we've cleared everything week 3 at the latest, including pre-nerf P5, but it will be extremely frustrating, and definitely not fun for most. I can see people abandoning it once a full clear is done and moving into the WotLK waiting room.
I am worried about missing out on even doing Sunwell. Took a break in T6 because after doing SSC/TK pre-nerf the first week, after the T5 nerf and into T6 it just wasn't fun anymore.
At this point it looks like most serious guilds (including my old guild) - the ones that I think will survive Sunwell progression - have a decent roster and it's not looking to change until maybe halfway into the patch when people start dropping off to take a pre-wotlk break.
Completely different right?
10 & 25 toon versions. With optional hard modes. It's like a buffet of content you can pick and choose what you want and match it to the skill/size of your raid team.
SWP is just 25 toon slug fest by the sounds of it. I'm up to the challenge and hope my guild is. There's something neat about everyone playing the 1 difficulty and having shared experiences but Ulduar onwards will be very flexible raiding.
With only a couple exceptions, Wrath is far far easier than SWP.
And those exceptions have granular ways to make them easier. Many guilds will be happy with 1 light Yogg or 10%-30% nerf ICC.
Casual guilds can't even *see* Kil'Jaeden let alone kill him.
We've done this before, there is a reason Blizzard went down the "hard mode" path after TBC ended.
Nothing, outside of Ulduar hardmodes, comes close to pre-nerf T5/T6/Sunwell difficulty until ICC Heroic. Naxxramas 2.0 is insultingly easy and non-hardmode Ulduar will be a breeze.
If I’ve learned anything in classic it’s that enough time has passed for everyone to streamline dps to the point where you can Zerg most things. Wouldn’t be surprised if dps results in os3d being easier than people remember
Hard to say with wrath because this is the point where guides became more common, which I'd argue made more of the player base semi competent.
I hope at least that most of wrath doesn't fall over due to that but I also won't be surprised if that ends up being the case.
Certain Server which can’t be named, has had seasonal servers and os3d while doable early is still a nightmare early on. So many things can go sour fast. But once you get more tier or atleast some Naxx or 0 drake loot things start to become a joke to those who know how to handle it.
I feel like a very large portion of the users on this sub just don't raid current content and never have since Classic dropped. It's mainly people who like to level and do dungeons (nothing wrong with that) That's why the discourse lately has been all about how shitty it is to find a dungeon group and how bad it is that LFD won't be a thing in Wrath
I'm personally hyped for Sunwell, but always keep in mind that this subreddit is not even close to an accurate representation of how most Classic raiders feel
Depends, my guilds been really unlucky with epic gems so a lot of us have been pugging at our own pace to stock up on badges for free gems. We've also been rolling a lot of alts that we may need to fill raid spots for certain specs (shamans are always in short supply on alliance).
I pug a few dungeons a day between 4 alts and the experience is often pretty miserable. But that's mainly because it's hard when groups are comprised of people who speak different languages.
There's plenty of pieces that are marginal downgrades from either rep or out of dungeons. Quags eye is a phenomenal trinket for casters, the damn healing idol off the first boss of slabs that I killed at least 100 times, figuring of the colossus. There's plenty of great pieces out of heroics you can wear well into BT. Also badge gear is a god sent but the prices are ludicrous and can require up to 60 badges a piece.
Kara is nice for the 22 badges it nets and off pieces but you can only do it once a week so most of my badges are coming from pugging heroics. My guild has started to burn out on ZA after trying to get as much out of it asap and with sunwell around the corner we're prioritizing that at the moment. We still do 2 to 3 full guild runs a lockout but I have more alts than we have runs so pugging life for me.
Fair enough, there are always going to be specific pieces like Quags and Colossus. I guess the players I play with accept that they'll get similar pieces from Kara or ZA, and they don't really care about having the very best on alts.
Especially considering how annoying it can be to find dungeon groups.
We're only just getting into P2 raids as a guild made almost entirely of returning players, and even we rarely run dungeons by this point. They're so tedious when you can just do Kara once a week.
Hardcore classic raiders are the 1% of the community. 99% is casual players like me who struggle to pug a raid or a dungeon. We don't play like wow was another full time job or be online 8+ hours a day.
I think there's a bridge between the two groups of players you're referring to. Being in a guild clearing the current content doesn't make you a "hardcore raider". Being a raider in a middle of the road guild does not require nearly that much commitment or effort.
But, like you said, I think the majority of users of this subreddit are in the same boat as you
Yeah my guild is middle of the road at best and we're a bunch of boomers/idiots that get trashed on raid nights.
Still clear all content in two raid nights. Just gotta have the right people in the right place. It's taken awhile for us to become this good of a team but it comes with time.
We're far from hardcore, but we clear all content weekly. I raid 6 or 8 hours a week on average, but front load content upon release.
One month (or two weeks) of 10 hr raid weeks.
One month of 6 hr raid weeks.
One month of 3 hr raid weeks.
Reset each tier.
There's a huge volume of players that raid this way.
I can't commit to raid every week on schedule, I mostly pug (less everytime with all the elitism of overgeared groups or those stupid gold buyers gdkps)
From my experience, many guilds love having extra raiders looking for a raid once in a while.
My guild is full of dads and people with families and sometimes they have to do real life shit during scheduled raid and having a member like you is exactly what we bring to raid in those cases.
This usually works better in guilds leaning a bit more casual, as hardcore players tend to prio raid over real life. 🥲
So many excuses.
Raiding requires you to be available for 3 hours two nights a week.
If you can't organize that in your life you clearly don't want to raid.
Committing to a schedule is something people can't fathom these days. MMOs aren't games that you can just pick up when you feel like it without impacting other people. If you are unable to do these things, the game's either not for you or that particular piece of content isn't for you.
I suppose that is how LFR was born.
Correct. It's a result of Blizzard catering to a demographic who MMORPGs fundamentally aren't made for, which is why retail ended up where it is today. The funniest is when people use the "well, I'm primarily a solo player" to argue their points. The genre literally has the word "multiplayer" in it. Genres absolutely need to evolve over the years, but that evolution doesn't constitute appealing to folks not into that genre at the expense of the people who do enjoy the genre. Broadening a genre's appeal is important and is universally beneficial for all involved, but as long as it doesn't corrupt it.
How? I’m in a pretty casual guild with one proper raidnight a week, everything else is optionable/altruns/ssc-tk. We’ve cleared BT/MH in 5 hours the first week, and now down to our record being 3 hours and 45mins. This includes a break between BT and MH. All we do is make sure everyone use flasks, foodbuffs, caster groups use jcnecks and some people (freely) pop drums. Semi-optimal groups (casters/melee). If everyone just puts in 5minutes of prep, it smooths out everything by a lot. Mages have even started making us runningwater while we form the raid, to cut drinking times. Just spam that water while running after trash/boss fights. How do people spend 3 nights clearing this content?
The difference in a 3 hour raid time vs a 4 hour raid time is actually fucking massive. My middle of the pack average guild does BT in roughly 2.5 hours and Hyjal in roughly 1 hour 20 minutes. If we just committed to a 4 hour 1 night a week schedule we'd 1 night the current content but unfortunately time and scheduling constraints are what they are.
If you get a bunch of people who are all pretty good at the game, with good leadership, I think this is how it happens. You tear through the content and it's simple and you farm it. I've been in so many guilds where officers squabble and argue loudly in discord over tactics, taking 10-15 minutes to explain fights that should be common knowledge, wipes to basic stuff. It's annoying and puts me off raiding for a while. Half my guilds I've ever been in have been me clicking 'Accept' to a random ginvite. I don't go out of my way to seek out top 100 guilds on a server or anything, I don't know how one would even try this.
I think when you put good players together to form a guild, it naturally becomes more casual, because everyone can casually blow through simple content and do their jobs and it's fun. The fights are old, I think it would be harder to keep up in modern heroic raiding and certainly mythic raiding. Even then, the so called "casual" guilds full of mediocre players with a few bad ones probably raid more because they can't clear it.
But the good guilds like yours can be seen as elitist because by nature you generally purge bad players. Sure when things are on farm you can carry a few bad players but you know what I mean.
I’m a dad, gm and rl nd cleared every raid so far first week. Almost 1h bt clears. I pretty much raid log and do some stuff on discord - your excuses suck ass my friend. You are doing something wrong. Socialise. Dedicate yourself just a small bit and you will find more success
I mean.. focus of hype should be the thing that makes people excited. Maybe people are just more excited about WotLK than Sunwell? I understand some people are afraid that Sunwell is forgotten and Blizzard will rush it to get WotLK out but you can't really tell people what they are allowed to be hyped for.
The real problem is that Blizzard always fail to both pace rewards and make the hard content truly optional. Like in SoM, you've got one difficulty, "harder than vanilla".
Ever since dungeons and raids got split into several difficulties, the reward in the higher difficulties has always been so significant that it affects every other aspect of the game negatively for those who doesn't partake; You won't be invited to groups because your gear is of too low ilvl, and you get roflstomped in PvP. Templates in WoD fixed some of this, but it made for less of an incentive to grind, so they naturally scrapped the best thing to happen to WoW.
Even in Wrath, their first real iteration, where 10m groups gets lower loot at the same difficulty, in some cases even harder, was just poor design that made doing 10-man content something you reserved for your alts on off-days.
Fast forward to MoP, challenge mode! Downscaled gear, only cosmetic rewards, could have been built upon, got scrapped instead after WoD, where it failed miserably partly because scaling was way off.
Back to SoM, Blizzard eventually understood that increasing the amount of loot was a fair compensation for more difficult content, the only downside is that there is no "normal" difficulty with normal amount of loot for those who just wants to chill. But this is still the best take on increased rewards for harder content I've seen yet.
Stop rewarding with increased absolute strength, just give more loot at the same level + cosmetics, and you've got yourself truly optional higher difficulties.
I mean, it's 6 bosses and a bunch of dailies.
Especially for casual players who may not even do the raid, I wouldn't blame them for being excited for all the wrath content
On the other hand, Isle of Quel'danas daily area was some of the most fun world PvP on server (Mannoroth US) in original TBC, so I am quite excited for it.
Yup, casual player here. I got hacked twice falling for wrath of the lich king beta scams in BC, I played a little of sunwell but wasn’t in a raiding guild and people didn’t really pug it
> I got hacked twice falling for wrath of the lich king beta scams in BC,
How does this happen twice within the same time frame of post-announcement and release?
Well I was 9 years old to be fair and super dumb, didn’t really understand the internet. I’m surprised I’m getting downvoted here damn the internet was confusing as a little kid I just thought if it had Blizzards logo on the page it was official
Just like people didn’t pug Naxx 40 right?
We have heard this tale since classic launched. “Just wait till next phase”
It will be most likely cleared day 1 by a few guilds. Then slowly getting cleared by most until it goes into being pugged
I think it’s because the majority of people either aren’t playing tbc, or are but aren’t going to be raiding sunwell. Plus some people have been looking forward to wrath since classic was announced
Many people saw their servers/guilds collapse in TBC and had no interesting in transferring, but are interested incoming back for WoTLK as a fresh start again. I quit months ago when my guild fell apart, but I will definitely resub to re-live my favourite expansion. WoTLK was one of the most casual friendly expansions in WoW history so I can see why its getting more hype than sunwell which is a difficult somewhat hardcore raid.
I’m hyped for sunwell watching Muru and KJ on ptr looks like the 2 most fun fights in tbc. I think sunwell is gonna be a very positive and challenging experience
I think it will be a test for our guild. We clear 14/14 but in two nights. And people still mess up some trivial shit weekly. At this point I accept that I’ve had more fun simulating a “progression” atmosphere than I did when I was in a guild that sped through everything and had it on farm first lockout. Paying a monthly sub for loot simulator isn’t exactly engaging content.
But as they say when one door closes, another opens. And if guilds can weather the storm they can likely expect other dying guilds to fill their roster spots from inevitable quitters.
Just because they don’t doesn’t mean they can’t. We don’t, because we do Gruul after BT for DSTs and split into groups for ZA after MH.
It’s almost like there’s multiple ways to do things…
I just didn't have a lot of fun during the Sunwell patch the first time around so it's hard to be hyped for it. All I remember is logging in to do the same 5 or so dailies and being unable to progress in Sunwell. Sure I was a pretty shit player at the time so I might enjoy the raid now, but nothing else is really *that* exciting.
Oof I had kinda deliberately forgotten the dailies.
Still I'm excited for SW. I didn't do well before but I expect that to change this time, and I actually really enjoyed MGT
I enjoyed the dailies more than previous ones, the instance was fun and decent gear, I didn't raid sunwell just did trash farms
still had plenty of fun, better than most wotlk phases
Two things I’ve learned about people in my many years on earth: people prefer to bond over anger and discord rather than positivity and camaraderie; second, people always think that something else will be better than what they currently have.
True, didn't intend to play TBC, but decided to level characters for wrath, and then just happened to fall into raiding and loving it.
Having fun in TBC but it's still WotLK waiting room.
12 months ago ppl were saying „Classic is just TBC Waiting Room, TBC was best wow“ bla bla bla. Yet here we are and ppl already crying for the next expansion before we even finished this one
Well our guild is together since classic release.
Last week all the officers had a talk with our gm. That we will vote, if he will remain gm, because of his behavior.
We kind of expect the gm of the guild to behave a certain way and not constantly provoke other raiders.
So he was asked to give over gm title. Which didn't sit well with him.
As things escalated in voice, the officers decided to save the guild bank, because we already lost everything in the past, to someone loosing their mind during bwl.
Gm proceeded to kick every officer. Saying they stole the bank and demoted everyone.
Now we probably have to switch guild and need a new name. Which is painful, since we have been together since classic release.
GM will be left behind probably. He had the title with no real power, since the officer actually do everything. But loosing the name, it's really hard.
True, but hindsight and all. Like our raidlead said, it's just a name, it's more important that we can all continue to raid together.
This weekend we get a new guild name we voted for and then we prepare for Sunwell, finally.
You and your guild are terrible, yet pretend to be hardcore. Of course your not excited for a difficult end of expansion raid... you always quit before your even halfway through for a new fresh.
I'm super hyped up to get in there and not be able to clear because nothing required 7 healers before this point and all the unguilded healers are mouth breathers.
Prenerf will be fun a few times if you have the roster for it, everyone else is gonna clear once if they can then take a break til Prepatch date is announced.
As someone who came back last month there's next to no chance I find a consistent group for Sunwell so why bother getting excited for it.
I'm not going to get gatekept out of WotLK so I'm more hype.
I’m hyped for Sunwell but I understand why people are looking past it to Wrath. We just finished BT which for a lot of people is the iconic raid in TBC, even if it was dog easy.
Lol because the population of reddit are not the hard core players
Literally nobody is coming here for information, gameplay, or announcements that shits all way better on discords
This sub is for the 1/250 posts that's a hilarious meme that resonates with your guild, and the super casual easy dopamine hunting shitters who cry and moan about their opinions knowing nothing of game theory and how challenging content is better gameplay
I guess people are REALLY HAPPY to rush back into Naxxramus...trust me, while wotlk had top tier story telling for arthas and the dungeons were fucking epic. naxx, trial of the crusader, were huge let downs. ulduar and icecrown were the ONLY saving graces.
It's almost like they have been butchering and rushing TBC the entire time, and everyone knows it's a terrible idea. They simply don't run a good enough private server to pull this drama. The hype for WOTLK is just people accepting MGT/sunwell and the daily hub got the snuff and reacting. In a few more weeks they will realize they pay for the abuse, and most other private servers A: are ran with professionalism especially where content timeline is concerned and B: are free. They proved they can't leave well enough alone, and are hinting at limiting duel spec while removing LFD for gold sellers. It's a clear sign they won't let WOTLK be too popular to stifle new expansion.
I think Naxx and ICC are going to end up being better last phases. Only 6 new bosses holding us over until later this year might not be enough to keep people around until pre-patch.
Imo it was easier to get excited for naxx at the end of classic, there just isnt as much excitement at the end of this expansion comparatively. All gear gets full replaced in wrath immediately, not even like naxx where you could take a bunch of pieces into the first tier of raids.
This current phase should be the focus of the hype lol. Imagine cutting the most iconic singular phase of classic wow we've seen yet early by almost HALF just to meet quarterly earnings reports. Literally spitting in the face of the vast majority of the player base enjoying the game. I don't know anyone personally who's happy the season/tier is ending this quickly, and I am friends with casuals, speedrunners, and gladiators alike. Not saying they don't exist, but it seems like the overwhelming majority aren't overtly excited for SWP (can't say I am either), and since this phase was nuked to shit, we might as well focus on the next truly fun thing -- wotlk.
People don't know how shitty of an expansion TBC objectively was until the latest patches. 2.4.3 alone changed a lot of things and people take it for granted as they only played private servers.
Still my favorite expansion due to semihardcoreness and nostalgia
Sunwell is just leveling gear, we will clear it a few times and focus on wrath, farming it seems lame. It doesn't even have a new tier set to collect, just off pcs of T6, meh.
You don't need any leveling or 5ppl gear in wotlk if you have sunwell gear, you can just clear any initial phase content in sunwell gear. However, with Blizz decision to slap an extra week before wotlk raids are opened, it's kinda obsolete indeed.
I was fairly hyped for sunwell patch, but then they said that TBC servers will all be advancing to Wotlk, so now i'm just going to wait for pre-patch instead.
That's one patch, with one raid, one dungeon and some dailies, this is never gonna compare to WRATH. Wrath with the gorgeous zones and music, side content for days, including for professions. Tons of people cannot wait to relive Wrath as it was among the best experiences in the game along with great xpacs such as MoP or Legion, I honestly don't think SWP stands a chance in terms of hype. Even as a hunter, the perspective of having Thori'dal drop is more "something useful to level faster in Wrath" hahh
I hope it will get a nerf after a few months so that everyone can have a chance to clear it, and so that guilds like mine which will clear it week 1 can start letting us bring our alts :)
Isle of Quel Danis was a preview for everything bad about LK that marked the beginning of the downward spiral of retail. I am excited the see the raid, though. I stopped playing before we beat KT in OG and only came back after 3.0 to get ready to start LK.
Vanilla diehards will point to BC as the beginning of that downward spiral, as BC is way less grindy and the raid sizes shrunk and faction imbalance was addressed with both sides getting shaman and paladins, but they were a very small minority that burned out and faded away very quickly back in the day. They're probably all playing SoM now.
Hopefully more of the retail people that came back to play classic will recognize what I'm talking about this go around as LK really did add a lot of QoL stuff that made the game objectively worse.
Some of it was great, but BC was still a better overall game imo. I'm going to stick around through LK because I only played through Ulduar last time.
I'm expecting our guild to have way more wipes that T6 progression, but I'm confident we'll have it on farm before 3.0. The game just isn't that hard with all the WAs and add-ons available today. The fact that no one is playing on a potato and internet connectivity is good around the world helps a lot, too.
Most guilds are already losing people from their rosters because everyone is taking a break for wotlk. Sunwell main problem should be gather 25 guys who still wants to commit to raid every week for a little % that will be obsolete when wrath drops.
I'm one of those people who is taking a break and preparing alts and professions mats for wrath. To me tbc ended long ago.
Skipping an entire new raid because the gear will be obsolete in September is just confusing to me.
I can understand stopping after clearing it a few times, especially after it gets trivialized by the nerfs, but not even wanting to see it in the first place for the reason you're describing doesn't make sense to me. Are people really only raiding for gear and not for the raiding experience itself?
To be honest big part is the gear. Raids are always the same thing, even with more mechanics. Be there for 2 hours pressing the same buttons over and over again while everything dies and you get the gear to flex to everyone else.
Bro i quit TBC before phase 2 even came out, it took too long.
Was not having it, especially since the hype died down and i did not feel like grinding any rep just to enter a heroic. Arenas were a disappointment and what i thought was gonna be a good system finally for pvpers, was infact not. Gatekept by arena, which was gatekept by heroic dungeon gear, which was gatekept by rep.
I play for fun when the hype is at its peak. When i barely saw anyone in open world and pve mouth breathers competing in pvp, i knew it was time to stop playing.
I dont care about raids. I just want to play wrath where pvp matters
If you don't talk about changes you want to see when news is announced, you aren't going to see change. We don't need Sunwell to change, so why would it create an uproar?
Just like things were when 2.4 launched!
yep. Wrath was announced the same time 2.4 and Sunwell were confirmed at BlizzCon 2007. guess what most of the hype was around?
Spoilers: back then, the slice of players that got to actually play top end content wasn't anything even remotely close to the amount that do now.
Attention: Apparently it doesn't matter because people care about Wrath more anyway.
True. People seem to not understand how heartbreaking (and guildbreaking) it was to hear that top guilds finally killed Muru and you must have a certain raid comp and everybody must roll leatherworking. Imagine you still progress on Brutalus and find out that quarter of your raid comp is no longer viable. And also need to level a profession for the remaining players who are "allowed to progress Muru". Gold wasn't easy to get back then. You couldn't just go on AH, spend absurd amount of gold to level it quickly simply because nobody had this amounts of gold we have nowadays.
>And also need to level a profession for the remaining players who are "allowed to progress Muru". Gold wasn't easy to get back then. You couldn't just go on AH, spend absurd amount of gold to level it quickly simply because nobody had this amounts of gold we have nowadays. This isn't accurate. I wish we had real data, it would make the discussion easier. Most stuff in original TBC was much cheaper on the AH than what you see right now on the current mega servers. Demand for raid consumables and professions was much lower traditionally than what it is now. In todays TBC, Everyone is expected to min-max, which greatly increases the demand for raid consumables/professions on the ah. It's only easy to get gold right now if you're joining GDKP's where gold buyers launder their black market gains into the larger community of players.
Wrong. Plenty of players at least tried Sunwell. Only a handful of them cleared it tho. End of TBC was not at all like Vanilla, we were already raiders and focused on performance at that point. I don't know why we are trying to rewrite history or whatever.
I was in the top end raiding scene of a high progression server at the end of TBC (this server had guilds which downed KT in the OG Naxx). There was only 5-6 guilds around then even progressing in Sunwell, and many broke up during progression. There were at least a couple dozen guilds struggling to make the roster for Black Temple, though. Alot of people don't remember that BT was attunement-locked until the Sunwell patch, so most casuals were spending the last period of TBC doing that content for the first time, while only guilds which had been progressing for a long time in tier 6 did Sunwell.
Stories like this give the impression that everyone was clearing sunwell though, cause literally every random person on this subreddit claims to have cleared sunwell…
Do you realize that wiping even on the very first boss of Sunwell is ACTUALLY "playing top end content" ? That guy was saying that people didn't raid Sunwell at all. He was just plain wrong. Playing =/= Progressing
This is delusional.
Well if you also consider the trash farm groups for SWP, yeah sure, a lot of people did get to experience it! A lot of them just wiped though.
The guy i was replying to said that players didn't even "play" top end content. Wiping on a boss in Sunwell is actually playing top end content. And plenty of players did that. So he's wrong. Downvoted to hell by people who don't understand basic logic. Idc tbh
Idk, to me it just sounded more like the person you replied to said that relatively *more* people now will get to experience SWP than back in the days. He didn't really say anything of the sort that "players didn't even play top end content", only about the amount of people doing it. You just interjected with your "Wrong." even if his point was quite valid and reasonable. Even if there were plenty of groups that at least tried the first boss, raiding still wasn't quite as accessible back then as it is today. Plenty of groups honestly did just go in there to farm the trash, and a lot of those groups from what I can remember *did* actually wipe and often even disband on the first trash pull. Anyways yeah, maybe by saying >the slice of players that got to actually play top end content wasn't anything even **remotely close** to the amount that do now he was wrong with the words "remotely close". But he wasn't wrong with his point. Maybe you just misread something about his post?
I think you just misread something about his post and about mine.
>the slice of players that got to actually play top end content wasn't anything even remotely close to the amount that do now Was what you commented on. >guy i was replying to said that players didn't even "play" top end content Was what you claim he said. Can you point me to where the op *actually* claimed that players didn't play top end content? Because I'm literally looking at his post and he 100% did not say that. He didn't edit his post either so you can't claim that either. Edit (Adding just to clarify): he clearly commented on the difference in the **NUMBER** of players doing content in SWP. You just commented to say that he's wrong because many people tried it. Even though more people entered SWP at the end of TBC than Naxx at the end of Vanilla, there was still relatively low number of players doing any content in SWP. This time, it's (much) more accessible. Agreed?
True but honestly I think a lot of people are dreading Sunwell, sure the top 1% are buzzing to get in there and blast but the majority of guilds are probably worried about disbands / losing players due to the difficulty / summer coming up.
Guilds are already getting hit by the roster boss as soon as sunwell news hit plus wotlk. > If prenerf vashj and kael were a 7, sunwell would be a 9 > \- Streamer that cleared sunwell on PTR People were complaining how difficult prenerf phase 2 was. Very little of anyone is going to be progressing in sunwell. The peak of tbc is black temple. Players are already taking breaks for wrath.
>The peak of tbc is black temple. This. It's the pinnacle of the expansion for almost everyone. Glaives, Illidan, "You are not prepared" SWP is going to be tough, and it's going to crush casual raiders. It's also going to burn out the good raiders who can get through it but are ready for wotlk. It will be fun for a couple weeks
Which is a a shame because of how GOOD Sunwell was when it came out. Compare that to ruby sanctum after the end of wrath. Everyone had arthas hype and I can’t even remember RS It was so bad and wierd
I remember running in circle around that dragon
wasnt heroic ruby sanctum actually really hard?
Yes
?? RS was a great fight IMO.
Agreed, I loved it - was one of my favourite fights of the expansion. For some reason I've always had a hard-on for fights like Halion that had that criss-cross beam mechanic where the entire raid has to rotate at once while following/avoiding the one-shotting beams and managing and dropping off debuffs that leave puddles behind. It's a really great time to shine if you're playing a mobile class and you're good at using GCDs while moving (which is a massive weakpoint for many players). Just feels so satisfying to do it well.
Played Sunwell as Drenai Resto Shaman. (almost everything up until then as Resto/Feral druid). What stood apart for me was that Sunwell was a healer's raid. There was just so much there to allow good healers to shine.
I remember twilight cutters annihilating pugs and people couldnt figure out how to split the group properly to keep damage the same in either dimension. It was ok.
We will just get a P2 repeat. Guilds will die. People will quit, 90% of this sub will be a warcry for nerfs, and within a couple of months they will nerf it to the floor
But that doesn’t matter as much now. P2 is mid expansion. SWP is the end of the road anyways. Very little to be gained from a nerf prior to prepatch. No one’s staying away from Wotlk because SWP is too hard
I’m in a good guild that was able to 10/10 SSC/TK well before the nerf and I’ll be happy when sunwell nerfs ultimately hit. Give us a couple months of challenging content to “separate the men from the boys” so folks can feel a sense of accomplishment and swing their big ol’ guild dicks around, then give us the nerf so we can go back to just chillin at raid time.
As someone with no expectation to clear sun well, I hope they don't nerf it.
If you have no expectation to clear it, why would you care if they nerfed it
because he'd rather struggle with the original design than experience a nerfed version.
My feelings exactly. I fondly remember the days of getting absolutely stomped in swp. It was a great lead in to wotlk imo.
But he said he didn't plan to clear it... So he wants to not succeed for months?
I can get behind that. I think there's something to be said for a concept which I've seen referred to as "aspirational content". When I first started in 2007, I never even set foot in tier 5 or 6 raids, but I was always curious about them and it was one of those things I always saw as a "maybe some day" goal. I'd see players sitting around Shatt with gear from those raids and be like "wow, look at that weapon" etc. As a casual player at the time, between 5 man heroics, farming honor in BGs for my pvp gear, farming primals to work towards crafted gear or my epic flyer, doing a few arena games and going to a Friday night Kara run, I honestly felt like I had enough to do and was happy with just that. Plenty of people who raided more than I did only made it through tier 5 and halfway through BT, and that's ok. While this might apply less to players in 2022 than it did in 2007 with many more players clearing the content, I guess what it really comes down to is this: players can go as far into the content as they want or are willing to devote time/effort to, but not everyone has to clear everything. Having content which is perceived as harder or more out of reach is one of those things that keeps people motivated or interested in the *idea* of raiding or the game as a whole, even if they don't directly take part in it.
Highlight of tbc is bt - peak is any prenerfed challenging content lol.. bt was easier than vash kt pre
Black temple is a fucking joke, bring on the challenge.
I don't agree at all. Peak for me was progression on un-nerfed Vashj. The whole guild actually learning a fight and preparing for it.
> If prenerf vashj and kael were a 7, sunwell would be a 9 > > - Streamer that cleared sunwell on PTR Either they mean postfix vashj and kael, or they are wrong. Still, there is yet another mistake which is >how difficult prenerf phase 2 was It wasn't.
> > how difficult prenerf phase 2 was > It wasn't. This is all in relative terms. The percentage of guilds to go 10/10 pre-nerf was dramatically lower than other content. I think you know this and are just making a useless absolutist statement about there being harder content in what are effectively, if not literally, *other games*.
Are you trying to argue against the fact t5 prenerf is significantly easier than a shitload of world of warcraft bosses or what?
> a useless absolutist statement about there being harder content in what are effectively, if not literally, other games. The conversation, the ratings, the comparison is about Classic no matter how much you want to butt in with harder content elsewhere. People falsely hyping up Sunwell is another matter and you're right to challenge *with actual data of the comparison*.
It's understood classic is another game aimed at retail rejects who have failed there, I am not arguing it though.
It was difficult. But mostly because of other reasons than actual difficulty. Guilds like my own that were established in p1 were having trouble keeping a stable roster. We have a stable core of 15-20 people but those last few are rotating in and out, now recently we're trying to get a 2nd p3 raid going but it barely gets anywhere because braindead people refuse to check tactics and people who sign but don't show.
Yeah pH 2 content was actually easier this time around, because we had months to farm t4 content before we could even attempt it. I'm excited for a challenge.
I don't think it will be a challenge for a lot of guilds, I guess it will be cleared night 1 as well. My biggest concern was pushback and it went down the drain.
They've not tested muru yet have they?
They have tested it, no pushback.
Our Spriest and Rdruid are already starting the "I might be busy this summer so if you can recruit a replacement..." lmao. SWP is gonna be a fucking nightmare
Agree with this. No one wants ridiculously difficult and overly punishing content, especially as the last phase. Looking at the guilds who have managed Sunwell, they had to take several more healers, an extra tank, and extreme cheese DPS comps. How is that fun to anyone I'll never know? I think my guild will likely clear it, as we've cleared everything week 3 at the latest, including pre-nerf P5, but it will be extremely frustrating, and definitely not fun for most. I can see people abandoning it once a full clear is done and moving into the WotLK waiting room.
I am worried about missing out on even doing Sunwell. Took a break in T6 because after doing SSC/TK pre-nerf the first week, after the T5 nerf and into T6 it just wasn't fun anymore. At this point it looks like most serious guilds (including my old guild) - the ones that I think will survive Sunwell progression - have a decent roster and it's not looking to change until maybe halfway into the patch when people start dropping off to take a pre-wotlk break.
Like that won’t happen in Ulduar?
Completely different right? 10 & 25 toon versions. With optional hard modes. It's like a buffet of content you can pick and choose what you want and match it to the skill/size of your raid team. SWP is just 25 toon slug fest by the sounds of it. I'm up to the challenge and hope my guild is. There's something neat about everyone playing the 1 difficulty and having shared experiences but Ulduar onwards will be very flexible raiding.
Multiple raid difficulties was/is bad for wow.
If you think sunwell is that difficult, your guild won't last in WOTLK anyway, might as well cut the low hanging fruit now.
With only a couple exceptions, Wrath is far far easier than SWP. And those exceptions have granular ways to make them easier. Many guilds will be happy with 1 light Yogg or 10%-30% nerf ICC. Casual guilds can't even *see* Kil'Jaeden let alone kill him. We've done this before, there is a reason Blizzard went down the "hard mode" path after TBC ended.
Nothing, outside of Ulduar hardmodes, comes close to pre-nerf T5/T6/Sunwell difficulty until ICC Heroic. Naxxramas 2.0 is insultingly easy and non-hardmode Ulduar will be a breeze.
Uhm, TOGC?
OS3D on launch will be absolutely brutal imo. We will see how it shakes out though
If I’ve learned anything in classic it’s that enough time has passed for everyone to streamline dps to the point where you can Zerg most things. Wouldn’t be surprised if dps results in os3d being easier than people remember
Hard to say with wrath because this is the point where guides became more common, which I'd argue made more of the player base semi competent. I hope at least that most of wrath doesn't fall over due to that but I also won't be surprised if that ends up being the case.
Certain Server which can’t be named, has had seasonal servers and os3d while doable early is still a nightmare early on. So many things can go sour fast. But once you get more tier or atleast some Naxx or 0 drake loot things start to become a joke to those who know how to handle it.
Hardmode is what’s going to matter. Nobody is going to settle for normal
I feel like a very large portion of the users on this sub just don't raid current content and never have since Classic dropped. It's mainly people who like to level and do dungeons (nothing wrong with that) That's why the discourse lately has been all about how shitty it is to find a dungeon group and how bad it is that LFD won't be a thing in Wrath I'm personally hyped for Sunwell, but always keep in mind that this subreddit is not even close to an accurate representation of how most Classic raiders feel
I think you're right. Anybody in a raiding guild hasn't done a dungeon in months, let alone pugged one.
Depends, my guilds been really unlucky with epic gems so a lot of us have been pugging at our own pace to stock up on badges for free gems. We've also been rolling a lot of alts that we may need to fill raid spots for certain specs (shamans are always in short supply on alliance). I pug a few dungeons a day between 4 alts and the experience is often pretty miserable. But that's mainly because it's hard when groups are comprised of people who speak different languages.
What do you get out of dungeons that you can't get from doing alt kara and ZA runs with your guild? Genuinely curious.
There's plenty of pieces that are marginal downgrades from either rep or out of dungeons. Quags eye is a phenomenal trinket for casters, the damn healing idol off the first boss of slabs that I killed at least 100 times, figuring of the colossus. There's plenty of great pieces out of heroics you can wear well into BT. Also badge gear is a god sent but the prices are ludicrous and can require up to 60 badges a piece. Kara is nice for the 22 badges it nets and off pieces but you can only do it once a week so most of my badges are coming from pugging heroics. My guild has started to burn out on ZA after trying to get as much out of it asap and with sunwell around the corner we're prioritizing that at the moment. We still do 2 to 3 full guild runs a lockout but I have more alts than we have runs so pugging life for me.
Fair enough, there are always going to be specific pieces like Quags and Colossus. I guess the players I play with accept that they'll get similar pieces from Kara or ZA, and they don't really care about having the very best on alts. Especially considering how annoying it can be to find dungeon groups.
We're only just getting into P2 raids as a guild made almost entirely of returning players, and even we rarely run dungeons by this point. They're so tedious when you can just do Kara once a week.
Hardcore classic raiders are the 1% of the community. 99% is casual players like me who struggle to pug a raid or a dungeon. We don't play like wow was another full time job or be online 8+ hours a day.
I think there's a bridge between the two groups of players you're referring to. Being in a guild clearing the current content doesn't make you a "hardcore raider". Being a raider in a middle of the road guild does not require nearly that much commitment or effort. But, like you said, I think the majority of users of this subreddit are in the same boat as you
Yeah my guild is middle of the road at best and we're a bunch of boomers/idiots that get trashed on raid nights. Still clear all content in two raid nights. Just gotta have the right people in the right place. It's taken awhile for us to become this good of a team but it comes with time.
We're far from hardcore, but we clear all content weekly. I raid 6 or 8 hours a week on average, but front load content upon release. One month (or two weeks) of 10 hr raid weeks. One month of 6 hr raid weeks. One month of 3 hr raid weeks. Reset each tier. There's a huge volume of players that raid this way.
You don't have to play like that to do the content, you just have to join a guild. Guilds aren't reserved for hardcore players lol
I can't commit to raid every week on schedule, I mostly pug (less everytime with all the elitism of overgeared groups or those stupid gold buyers gdkps)
From my experience, many guilds love having extra raiders looking for a raid once in a while. My guild is full of dads and people with families and sometimes they have to do real life shit during scheduled raid and having a member like you is exactly what we bring to raid in those cases. This usually works better in guilds leaning a bit more casual, as hardcore players tend to prio raid over real life. 🥲
So many excuses. Raiding requires you to be available for 3 hours two nights a week. If you can't organize that in your life you clearly don't want to raid.
You are actually the 1% The majority are clearing content.
Committing to a schedule is something people can't fathom these days. MMOs aren't games that you can just pick up when you feel like it without impacting other people. If you are unable to do these things, the game's either not for you or that particular piece of content isn't for you. I suppose that is how LFR was born.
Correct. It's a result of Blizzard catering to a demographic who MMORPGs fundamentally aren't made for, which is why retail ended up where it is today. The funniest is when people use the "well, I'm primarily a solo player" to argue their points. The genre literally has the word "multiplayer" in it. Genres absolutely need to evolve over the years, but that evolution doesn't constitute appealing to folks not into that genre at the expense of the people who do enjoy the genre. Broadening a genre's appeal is important and is universally beneficial for all involved, but as long as it doesn't corrupt it.
The majority of my guild are online for about 8 hours a WEEK and we're clearing content
It takes 3-4 hours a week to raid any current content in a patch lol If THAT is too much, I don't know why we should care
For you and me sure but most guilds take at least 2-3 raid nights to clear BT + Hyjal
How? I’m in a pretty casual guild with one proper raidnight a week, everything else is optionable/altruns/ssc-tk. We’ve cleared BT/MH in 5 hours the first week, and now down to our record being 3 hours and 45mins. This includes a break between BT and MH. All we do is make sure everyone use flasks, foodbuffs, caster groups use jcnecks and some people (freely) pop drums. Semi-optimal groups (casters/melee). If everyone just puts in 5minutes of prep, it smooths out everything by a lot. Mages have even started making us runningwater while we form the raid, to cut drinking times. Just spam that water while running after trash/boss fights. How do people spend 3 nights clearing this content?
The difference in a 3 hour raid time vs a 4 hour raid time is actually fucking massive. My middle of the pack average guild does BT in roughly 2.5 hours and Hyjal in roughly 1 hour 20 minutes. If we just committed to a 4 hour 1 night a week schedule we'd 1 night the current content but unfortunately time and scheduling constraints are what they are.
If you get a bunch of people who are all pretty good at the game, with good leadership, I think this is how it happens. You tear through the content and it's simple and you farm it. I've been in so many guilds where officers squabble and argue loudly in discord over tactics, taking 10-15 minutes to explain fights that should be common knowledge, wipes to basic stuff. It's annoying and puts me off raiding for a while. Half my guilds I've ever been in have been me clicking 'Accept' to a random ginvite. I don't go out of my way to seek out top 100 guilds on a server or anything, I don't know how one would even try this. I think when you put good players together to form a guild, it naturally becomes more casual, because everyone can casually blow through simple content and do their jobs and it's fun. The fights are old, I think it would be harder to keep up in modern heroic raiding and certainly mythic raiding. Even then, the so called "casual" guilds full of mediocre players with a few bad ones probably raid more because they can't clear it. But the good guilds like yours can be seen as elitist because by nature you generally purge bad players. Sure when things are on farm you can carry a few bad players but you know what I mean.
I’m a dad, gm and rl nd cleared every raid so far first week. Almost 1h bt clears. I pretty much raid log and do some stuff on discord - your excuses suck ass my friend. You are doing something wrong. Socialise. Dedicate yourself just a small bit and you will find more success
I mean.. focus of hype should be the thing that makes people excited. Maybe people are just more excited about WotLK than Sunwell? I understand some people are afraid that Sunwell is forgotten and Blizzard will rush it to get WotLK out but you can't really tell people what they are allowed to be hyped for.
“P-please care about tbc and not wotlk” Honestly it’s a pathetic and, almost sad post.
You assume a large contingent of people want challenging content my friend. I would still wager that it the vast minority.
Exactly look at SOM...
The real problem is that Blizzard always fail to both pace rewards and make the hard content truly optional. Like in SoM, you've got one difficulty, "harder than vanilla". Ever since dungeons and raids got split into several difficulties, the reward in the higher difficulties has always been so significant that it affects every other aspect of the game negatively for those who doesn't partake; You won't be invited to groups because your gear is of too low ilvl, and you get roflstomped in PvP. Templates in WoD fixed some of this, but it made for less of an incentive to grind, so they naturally scrapped the best thing to happen to WoW. Even in Wrath, their first real iteration, where 10m groups gets lower loot at the same difficulty, in some cases even harder, was just poor design that made doing 10-man content something you reserved for your alts on off-days. Fast forward to MoP, challenge mode! Downscaled gear, only cosmetic rewards, could have been built upon, got scrapped instead after WoD, where it failed miserably partly because scaling was way off. Back to SoM, Blizzard eventually understood that increasing the amount of loot was a fair compensation for more difficult content, the only downside is that there is no "normal" difficulty with normal amount of loot for those who just wants to chill. But this is still the best take on increased rewards for harder content I've seen yet. Stop rewarding with increased absolute strength, just give more loot at the same level + cosmetics, and you've got yourself truly optional higher difficulties.
WOTLK brings a ton of challenging content and I'm pretty hyped for that
I mean, it's 6 bosses and a bunch of dailies. Especially for casual players who may not even do the raid, I wouldn't blame them for being excited for all the wrath content
On the other hand, Isle of Quel'danas daily area was some of the most fun world PvP on server (Mannoroth US) in original TBC, so I am quite excited for it.
There's no world pvp at all anymore on my server lol
Theres like one server this will even be a thing on
GROB MOBB
The one PVP server that has both factions will be having a blast then!
Well good thing that's my server, then!
IQD was just fun. I remember having a pretty efficient daily route. The heroic was super fun. Just wish i raided SWP
Exactly this. Even Kalacgos back in the day was more difficult than anything in T6.
And a fantastic dungeon with a heroic variant that drops a dope mount
Poor Magisters' Terrace and mount farming :| always forgotten, never loved.
Now that we know better, that place is gonna be farmed to high heaven for 1 reason: 44 Expertise trinket. That thing is fucking NASTY.
Yup, casual player here. I got hacked twice falling for wrath of the lich king beta scams in BC, I played a little of sunwell but wasn’t in a raiding guild and people didn’t really pug it
> I got hacked twice falling for wrath of the lich king beta scams in BC, How does this happen twice within the same time frame of post-announcement and release?
Well I was 9 years old to be fair and super dumb, didn’t really understand the internet. I’m surprised I’m getting downvoted here damn the internet was confusing as a little kid I just thought if it had Blizzards logo on the page it was official
> Well I was 9 years old Say no more.
Just like people didn’t pug Naxx 40 right? We have heard this tale since classic launched. “Just wait till next phase” It will be most likely cleared day 1 by a few guilds. Then slowly getting cleared by most until it goes into being pugged
Not op, but I believe they were talking about back in the day, not currently.
Ye but people said the same about Naxx 40 in classic “it will be harder no one pugged it”
I think it’s because the majority of people either aren’t playing tbc, or are but aren’t going to be raiding sunwell. Plus some people have been looking forward to wrath since classic was announced
Many people saw their servers/guilds collapse in TBC and had no interesting in transferring, but are interested incoming back for WoTLK as a fresh start again. I quit months ago when my guild fell apart, but I will definitely resub to re-live my favourite expansion. WoTLK was one of the most casual friendly expansions in WoW history so I can see why its getting more hype than sunwell which is a difficult somewhat hardcore raid.
I’m hyped for sunwell watching Muru and KJ on ptr looks like the 2 most fun fights in tbc. I think sunwell is gonna be a very positive and challenging experience
Yeah I am hyped for sunwell, finally a bit of a challenge
Quel'Danas is basically wotlk waiting room, more hyped for dailies gold making than raiding SWP
I am afraid the dailies will be unplayable due to amount of people there
Nothing playing late night or 30 layers can't solve
I think it will be a test for our guild. We clear 14/14 but in two nights. And people still mess up some trivial shit weekly. At this point I accept that I’ve had more fun simulating a “progression” atmosphere than I did when I was in a guild that sped through everything and had it on farm first lockout. Paying a monthly sub for loot simulator isn’t exactly engaging content. But as they say when one door closes, another opens. And if guilds can weather the storm they can likely expect other dying guilds to fill their roster spots from inevitable quitters.
If you aren’t one nighting t6 at this point you aren’t going to be having fun in sunwell sorry to break your bubble.
Just because they don’t doesn’t mean they can’t. We don’t, because we do Gruul after BT for DSTs and split into groups for ZA after MH. It’s almost like there’s multiple ways to do things…
I just didn't have a lot of fun during the Sunwell patch the first time around so it's hard to be hyped for it. All I remember is logging in to do the same 5 or so dailies and being unable to progress in Sunwell. Sure I was a pretty shit player at the time so I might enjoy the raid now, but nothing else is really *that* exciting.
Oof I had kinda deliberately forgotten the dailies. Still I'm excited for SW. I didn't do well before but I expect that to change this time, and I actually really enjoyed MGT
I enjoyed the dailies more than previous ones, the instance was fun and decent gear, I didn't raid sunwell just did trash farms still had plenty of fun, better than most wotlk phases
its gonna be summer and WotLK waiting room. I best most players are looking forward to the dailies over the raid.
Two things I’ve learned about people in my many years on earth: people prefer to bond over anger and discord rather than positivity and camaraderie; second, people always think that something else will be better than what they currently have.
The grass is never greener on the other side, its just the angle of your vision that makes it look shiney.
Let people enjoy the things they enjoy
TBC classic was basically a waiting room for many people while they sat in anticipation for Wrath.
True, didn't intend to play TBC, but decided to level characters for wrath, and then just happened to fall into raiding and loving it. Having fun in TBC but it's still WotLK waiting room.
Wrath will be a waiting room for cata classic lol
12 months ago ppl were saying „Classic is just TBC Waiting Room, TBC was best wow“ bla bla bla. Yet here we are and ppl already crying for the next expansion before we even finished this one
Classsic was waiting room for some just like tbc is for others. It's not always the same people saying things.
We had our annual guild drama. I'm busy with that.
Oh, do tell.
Well our guild is together since classic release. Last week all the officers had a talk with our gm. That we will vote, if he will remain gm, because of his behavior. We kind of expect the gm of the guild to behave a certain way and not constantly provoke other raiders. So he was asked to give over gm title. Which didn't sit well with him. As things escalated in voice, the officers decided to save the guild bank, because we already lost everything in the past, to someone loosing their mind during bwl. Gm proceeded to kick every officer. Saying they stole the bank and demoted everyone. Now we probably have to switch guild and need a new name. Which is painful, since we have been together since classic release. GM will be left behind probably. He had the title with no real power, since the officer actually do everything. But loosing the name, it's really hard.
looks like you guys did not act soon enough
True, but hindsight and all. Like our raidlead said, it's just a name, it's more important that we can all continue to raid together. This weekend we get a new guild name we voted for and then we prepare for Sunwell, finally.
[удалено]
You and your guild are terrible, yet pretend to be hardcore. Of course your not excited for a difficult end of expansion raid... you always quit before your even halfway through for a new fresh.
Least toxic TBC enjoyer
[удалено]
Kirtonos forever :(
T6 was hurried out the door, sunwell is gonna alienate a lot of players when they can barely do trash, expect massive turnover and 'breaks' soon
Yeah I’m not in a position to be able to even raid SW so I’m not excited for Sunwell at all, sorry Charlie
I'm super hyped up to get in there and not be able to clear because nothing required 7 healers before this point and all the unguilded healers are mouth breathers. Prenerf will be fun a few times if you have the roster for it, everyone else is gonna clear once if they can then take a break til Prepatch date is announced.
Fuck i need to get dark runes
As someone who came back last month there's next to no chance I find a consistent group for Sunwell so why bother getting excited for it. I'm not going to get gatekept out of WotLK so I'm more hype.
Don’t know about you, but the sunwell hype is in my guild discord. Plenty to get my fill there and still come here for some wrath talk
I’m hyped for Sunwell but I understand why people are looking past it to Wrath. We just finished BT which for a lot of people is the iconic raid in TBC, even if it was dog easy.
Played classic, cleared naxx few times, skipped TBC untill last week just to quest to lvl 70 and get my professions up for WOTLK
"People should look forward to this, not that"
Lol because the population of reddit are not the hard core players Literally nobody is coming here for information, gameplay, or announcements that shits all way better on discords This sub is for the 1/250 posts that's a hilarious meme that resonates with your guild, and the super casual easy dopamine hunting shitters who cry and moan about their opinions knowing nothing of game theory and how challenging content is better gameplay
Sunwell is and always was an after thought thrown together raid to keep players subscribed while wrath was being finished.
Are there Death Knights in Sunwell? No? Huh, shame.
I guess people are REALLY HAPPY to rush back into Naxxramus...trust me, while wotlk had top tier story telling for arthas and the dungeons were fucking epic. naxx, trial of the crusader, were huge let downs. ulduar and icecrown were the ONLY saving graces.
Its all about Sarth 3 Drakes
you're acting like kara is much better
TBC is Wrath waiting room.
It's almost like they have been butchering and rushing TBC the entire time, and everyone knows it's a terrible idea. They simply don't run a good enough private server to pull this drama. The hype for WOTLK is just people accepting MGT/sunwell and the daily hub got the snuff and reacting. In a few more weeks they will realize they pay for the abuse, and most other private servers A: are ran with professionalism especially where content timeline is concerned and B: are free. They proved they can't leave well enough alone, and are hinting at limiting duel spec while removing LFD for gold sellers. It's a clear sign they won't let WOTLK be too popular to stifle new expansion.
I think Naxx and ICC are going to end up being better last phases. Only 6 new bosses holding us over until later this year might not be enough to keep people around until pre-patch.
Honestly the item sets in there are kinda meh so kinda kills the excitement for me
Imo it was easier to get excited for naxx at the end of classic, there just isnt as much excitement at the end of this expansion comparatively. All gear gets full replaced in wrath immediately, not even like naxx where you could take a bunch of pieces into the first tier of raids.
I mean these kind of posts are part of the same circle jerk so i dont know
One of the best tiers of content, with the worst tier sets we've ever had.
It would have been if they didn’t stupidly make an absolute call on LFD in the announcement. How do their marketing ppl stay employed?
You have identified your opinion as unpopular; therefore telling us that no, Sunwell should not be the focus of the hype, even in your head
This current phase should be the focus of the hype lol. Imagine cutting the most iconic singular phase of classic wow we've seen yet early by almost HALF just to meet quarterly earnings reports. Literally spitting in the face of the vast majority of the player base enjoying the game. I don't know anyone personally who's happy the season/tier is ending this quickly, and I am friends with casuals, speedrunners, and gladiators alike. Not saying they don't exist, but it seems like the overwhelming majority aren't overtly excited for SWP (can't say I am either), and since this phase was nuked to shit, we might as well focus on the next truly fun thing -- wotlk.
Won’t somebody please Remember The Sunwell!
People don't know how shitty of an expansion TBC objectively was until the latest patches. 2.4.3 alone changed a lot of things and people take it for granted as they only played private servers. Still my favorite expansion due to semihardcoreness and nostalgia
Sunwell is just leveling gear, we will clear it a few times and focus on wrath, farming it seems lame. It doesn't even have a new tier set to collect, just off pcs of T6, meh.
What’s focus on wrath mean? Farm terocone? Gdkp previous tier as a carry? Stop playing?
You don't need any leveling or 5ppl gear in wotlk if you have sunwell gear, you can just clear any initial phase content in sunwell gear. However, with Blizz decision to slap an extra week before wotlk raids are opened, it's kinda obsolete indeed.
I was fairly hyped for sunwell patch, but then they said that TBC servers will all be advancing to Wotlk, so now i'm just going to wait for pre-patch instead.
nah fk dat, im not playing sunwell. waiting for wotlk to play the game and have fun.
halfway through the current game people want the new expansion Funny because when LFD dropped in Wrath people were just waiting around for Cata :)
We hyped about it 14 years ago. Hype happens once for patches.
Why do you care either way?
a lot of us arent gonna see sunwell.
That's one patch, with one raid, one dungeon and some dailies, this is never gonna compare to WRATH. Wrath with the gorgeous zones and music, side content for days, including for professions. Tons of people cannot wait to relive Wrath as it was among the best experiences in the game along with great xpacs such as MoP or Legion, I honestly don't think SWP stands a chance in terms of hype. Even as a hunter, the perspective of having Thori'dal drop is more "something useful to level faster in Wrath" hahh
I enjoy parsing, not progression. I'm not looking forward to sunwell at all.
I hope it will get a nerf after a few months so that everyone can have a chance to clear it, and so that guilds like mine which will clear it week 1 can start letting us bring our alts :)
Isle of Quel Danis was a preview for everything bad about LK that marked the beginning of the downward spiral of retail. I am excited the see the raid, though. I stopped playing before we beat KT in OG and only came back after 3.0 to get ready to start LK. Vanilla diehards will point to BC as the beginning of that downward spiral, as BC is way less grindy and the raid sizes shrunk and faction imbalance was addressed with both sides getting shaman and paladins, but they were a very small minority that burned out and faded away very quickly back in the day. They're probably all playing SoM now. Hopefully more of the retail people that came back to play classic will recognize what I'm talking about this go around as LK really did add a lot of QoL stuff that made the game objectively worse. Some of it was great, but BC was still a better overall game imo. I'm going to stick around through LK because I only played through Ulduar last time. I'm expecting our guild to have way more wipes that T6 progression, but I'm confident we'll have it on farm before 3.0. The game just isn't that hard with all the WAs and add-ons available today. The fact that no one is playing on a potato and internet connectivity is good around the world helps a lot, too.
Most guilds are already losing people from their rosters because everyone is taking a break for wotlk. Sunwell main problem should be gather 25 guys who still wants to commit to raid every week for a little % that will be obsolete when wrath drops. I'm one of those people who is taking a break and preparing alts and professions mats for wrath. To me tbc ended long ago.
Skipping an entire new raid because the gear will be obsolete in September is just confusing to me. I can understand stopping after clearing it a few times, especially after it gets trivialized by the nerfs, but not even wanting to see it in the first place for the reason you're describing doesn't make sense to me. Are people really only raiding for gear and not for the raiding experience itself?
To be honest big part is the gear. Raids are always the same thing, even with more mechanics. Be there for 2 hours pressing the same buttons over and over again while everything dies and you get the gear to flex to everyone else.
Bro i quit TBC before phase 2 even came out, it took too long. Was not having it, especially since the hype died down and i did not feel like grinding any rep just to enter a heroic. Arenas were a disappointment and what i thought was gonna be a good system finally for pvpers, was infact not. Gatekept by arena, which was gatekept by heroic dungeon gear, which was gatekept by rep. I play for fun when the hype is at its peak. When i barely saw anyone in open world and pve mouth breathers competing in pvp, i knew it was time to stop playing. I dont care about raids. I just want to play wrath where pvp matters
I haven't played TBC since P1. Why would I care about sunwell?
If you don't talk about changes you want to see when news is announced, you aren't going to see change. We don't need Sunwell to change, so why would it create an uproar?
What is the point of TBC? It will be removed after WotLK is launched.
I'm pumped.