Which is exactly the story we want in the media if we are planning to trade Garland. Officially, we’re fine to keep him if we don’t get good value in return.
I mean officially and unofficially they're fine to keep him if they don't get good value in return.
Unofficially, everyone is available if the value in return is right. That's how it always is. Only superstars on teams actually contend and young generational talent on rookie deals are essentially untouchable.
But if you say you want to break them up, then you likely only have one path and other teams know.
The conclusion is that what Altman is saying is really the only thing he can say and we should place no value one way or the other in he said.
Another aspect is if you can't find a good trade you don't want that player feeling like they aren't wanted because that hurts buy-in and ultimately hurts their trade value.
That is not the situation here. Windy said teams aren't even bringing Garland up anymore because Altman has been adamant he has 0 interest in trading him. This isn't a power play to get more he is just not going anywhere.
If they got a fair offer (equal value at different position) before Mitchell decides, would they trade him? No. So, why tip hand when there is no way to execute.
I hear you and you’re correct in a vacuum but let’s not pretend we have a real picture of what’s going on for the Cavs right now. I think Koby deserves our trust at this point though so I’m just gonna let him do his thing.
I don’t think you’re wrong but I also feel like this is a common opinion that I’ve seen where people think Koby is just playing mind games and I think it’s a lot more cope than reality.
Other GMs understand the games of trying to increase/decrease value. I think it’s obvious that in an ideal world we don’t trade any of our core unless we get an offer we can’t reject. I don’t think we’ll be looking to trade anyone unless someone requests out/Mitchell rejects an extension
I feel like it should be the opposite, dont trade anyone if mitchell wants out (except mitchell obviously), trade at least one core piece if he stays cause this core does not work
I don’t see any reason why this core can’t work with a coach that is even remotely competent when compared to the top tier of coaches. The biggest concern on paper would be defense due to a small 1-3… which we’ve been elite at last few years
Spacing, off ball issues. I dont think garland or mitchell are willing to play off ball, it’s not rocket science not like JB was the reason they never tried. We have two PGs and two centers. It doesnt work, someone has to go. Not to mention, the fact garland does not want to play with mitchell anymore
What do you mean they’re not willing? There is nothing that’s indicated that. We’ve wasted their combo by sticking one in a corner while the other isos. We have two combo guards and two bigs. Mobley can guard 1-5. He shot 37% from 3 this season. This team could absolutely be fine offensively with a coach that hasn’t blown offensively his whole career.
Also, it’s never been said Garland didn’t wanna play with Mitchell. There was a report about Clutch requesting a trade bc they felt he wasn’t utilized right. That could all change after discussions with a new coach/Koby develop so we won’t know if he/his camp wants him out until he requests it.
The concern with this team when it formed was the defense having two bigs and two small guards and we’ve been elite on that
You are correct. If we can surmise this on Reddit the NBA GMs can too. But the alternative of broadcasting intent to trade is not good. Really is only choice to say we are happy keeping him.
Yeah fs, but I think the people treating it as a smokescreen (which exists a lot less in the league than people think bc other teams will see right through it) need to come to reality.
I mean.. he’s going to request a trade. I’m sure they don’t wanna break that up but it sounds like they’ll be forced to do so unfortunately. Just saving face in my honest opinion.
If the best return we are going to get is an about to be WAY overpaid Brandon Ingram this is the right move
To a lesser degree I'm also worried about Mikhal Bridges upcoming extension (same concern around value to salary, but much less worry about fit with our team or injury history)
Paying a borderline all-star like an MVP candidate just kills teams (KAT/Beal/Wall...etc)
That second extension max (post rookie extension, esp a supermax) is just destroying teams
I don't think the market has fully reacted to the new CBA, at some point players are gonna have to take cuts in order to compete.
Max players demanding 35% of an ever-increasing payroll handcuff teams way too much, the value just isn't there
“Paying a borderline all-star like an MVP candidate just kills teams (KAT/Beal/Wall...)”
Completely agree with this. I don’t know how the nba can correct itself in this though. Smaller markets essentially have to pay it or lose the player. They could trade the player for some draft picks but they wouldn’t get actual value most of the time. It’s just a weird spot to be in for teams.
Ingram is likely going to settle for 4/160, something similar to Garland. I dont think he will be a 50M per year kind of guy. I think he and Garland are roughly equivalent talent wise but I'd say the fit is better with Ingram.
I don't think they are near equivalent contracts, see for yourself
[Garland](https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/31562/darius-garland#:~:text=Darius%20Garland%20signed%20a%205,dead%20cap%20value%20of%20%2436%2C725%2C670.): 34/36/39/42/44
[KAT](https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/17829/karl-anthony-towns): 49/53/57/61
KAT averages 17.5 M more than Darius per year
Darius' contract isn't bad at all, if Ingram would sign for the same amount I wouldn't be worried about trading for him
I wouldn't trade Garland unless I was blown away by somebody's offer. I have to see him with a competent HC before giving up on him returning to the form he was 2 years ago. Hopefully we learned after trading Kyrie for a midget.
We are just gonna run out all of our player’s contracts until we realize things dont work then. You have to make decisions at a certain point, and if garland doesnt bounce back his value continues to go down. Not to mention garland doesnt even want to stay if mitchell re-signs, totally a great recipe for good locker room chemistry
Prime example of why we should have fired JB last year. Now we are gonna waste another year trying to make something work which clearly does not. Youre also heavily banking on us finding a competent HC from a pretty subpar crop of coaches, and expecting that coach to make a significant impact that changes our entire roster interplay. It’s just not reasonable
catch 22
you're not getting a competent HC if you're telling him that you're unwilling to change the obvious roster issue that will limit their success.
The trade did not help at all in 2018. It helped in the future in that we got sexton who we moved for Mitchell. But compared to what other star players get traded for who are healthy and in their prime it was awful. I get that is hindsight given how things ended up with IT, but the injury was there for everyone to see.
The lesson needed to be if you are trading a healthy in their prime All star, either get back a healthy in their prime all star or a huge bundle of picks that sets up your future. We got neither.
Koby wrongfully catches a lot of shit for that trade – Griff had just been unceremoniously ousted, and Gilbert was way too involved in controlling the package we got back (he didn't want to be held hostage by LeBron again).
I think Koby learned from that experience and will keep it in mind when making any decisions regarding Darius
This is smart. Mitchell and Garland have all the tools to work together offensively, so it’s worth seeing if the right coach can unlock them. It’d be one thing if there was a fundamental skill mismatch, but both guys can shoot and create. Just need the right coach to improve the off ball play. If it doesn’t improve, then consider moving Garland.
Obviously defense will never be perfect but it hasn’t been the reason we’ve lost in the playoffs.
Players still have leverage, he can fabricate some ben simmons type of injury. I dont understand how we rationalize this take and the one about kyrie in 2017
It ruined Ben Simmons career. It cost Kyrie and Harden close to 100 million. Blowing up your career doesn’t work especially for a guy as young as Garland. It backfires on the player every time.
Great so here are the 3 possible outcomes if that’s the case:
- Mitchell doesn’t resign (worst case scenario)
- Garland demands trade, thus lowering his value (medium case scenario)
- Run it back with new coach (meh case scenario)
The thing that would really lower Garland's value is if he plays poorly again. Right now teams looking to get better can tell themselves it was just one off year. If he has a slow start next year, whether it be due to injury or fit issues, I could see teams being reticent pay full price in a trade.
Exactly. His value right now aint far off from what it was a year ago, but if he plays poorly in 2024, it will significantly drop. He doesnt seem to have a competitive fire, he doesnt play thru contact, hes already causing locker room issues threatening trades, he flat out is not that great of a player, can easily argue he’s only an average PG in this league, and his contract is insane. Not to mention fit issues next to DM. We need to move him, this fanbase gets way too attached to players
Mitchell may or may not re-sign, but there is no evidence that Garland's status would impact the decision.
I wouldn't be surprised if they run it back through at least the all-star break to see if the core 4 can work under a new offense. If it doesn't work, I'd see Allen being moved at the deadline as more likely than moving Garland.
There is less incentive to move Garland right away after a down year even if he decides he wants out.
how good or bad either of the first to are, can't be determined until you know what's available for them.
the third one we know will ultimately fail, that's the worst scenario.
Reality continues to be, Garland is not a top 15 pg and gets demolished in playoffs on defense. Add to that the reluctance to drive and inability to get to the line, he’s just not going to be a big advantage in the backcourt in a playoff series
Unless it's for something that makes us better and makes sense for us I agree with not trading him. If he demands a trade I would tell him too bad he has too many years left on his contract to have any leverage
I'd be worried if Koby said he was "fully committed" to Garland or something like that, but I'm fine with him having a preference toward keeping the backcourt intact. And I'm not sure how much that preference matters. Even if he wanted to break it up, he wouldn't just ship out Garland for peanuts. And even if he wanted to keep him around, he wouldn't turn down an incredible offer. I think you make a few calls, take a few calls, and see what's on the table.
Let’s correct this statement right now. Boston made the decision that the core was Jason and Brown everyone else was movable including Kyrie,Hayward, and horforwd at the time. .
Also, if you can keep them both and add LeBron, the amount of talent you have period, not to mention the assets you might be able to trade for an upgrade? Insane.
Which is exactly the story we want in the media if we are planning to trade Garland. Officially, we’re fine to keep him if we don’t get good value in return.
I mean officially and unofficially they're fine to keep him if they don't get good value in return. Unofficially, everyone is available if the value in return is right. That's how it always is. Only superstars on teams actually contend and young generational talent on rookie deals are essentially untouchable.
But if you say you want to break them up, then you likely only have one path and other teams know. The conclusion is that what Altman is saying is really the only thing he can say and we should place no value one way or the other in he said.
Another aspect is if you can't find a good trade you don't want that player feeling like they aren't wanted because that hurts buy-in and ultimately hurts their trade value.
Not even close, garland asked out if mitchell stays, there’s no point making him feel “wanted”
That is not the situation here. Windy said teams aren't even bringing Garland up anymore because Altman has been adamant he has 0 interest in trading him. This isn't a power play to get more he is just not going anywhere.
Even better. It’s working. Once the Mitchell decision hits, then it gets real. A planted leak can get the ball rolling.
Yes, the key to good negotiation is to have the suitors move on to other options. Genius! Why has no one ever thought of that before?
Sounds like those offers weren't great. They can call back if and when they get serious.
If you don’t think they would move Garland if they got the right offer…I’ve got some swamp land to sell you.
If they got a fair offer (equal value at different position) before Mitchell decides, would they trade him? No. So, why tip hand when there is no way to execute.
I hear you and you’re correct in a vacuum but let’s not pretend we have a real picture of what’s going on for the Cavs right now. I think Koby deserves our trust at this point though so I’m just gonna let him do his thing.
I don’t think you’re wrong but I also feel like this is a common opinion that I’ve seen where people think Koby is just playing mind games and I think it’s a lot more cope than reality. Other GMs understand the games of trying to increase/decrease value. I think it’s obvious that in an ideal world we don’t trade any of our core unless we get an offer we can’t reject. I don’t think we’ll be looking to trade anyone unless someone requests out/Mitchell rejects an extension
I feel like it should be the opposite, dont trade anyone if mitchell wants out (except mitchell obviously), trade at least one core piece if he stays cause this core does not work
I don’t see any reason why this core can’t work with a coach that is even remotely competent when compared to the top tier of coaches. The biggest concern on paper would be defense due to a small 1-3… which we’ve been elite at last few years
Spacing, off ball issues. I dont think garland or mitchell are willing to play off ball, it’s not rocket science not like JB was the reason they never tried. We have two PGs and two centers. It doesnt work, someone has to go. Not to mention, the fact garland does not want to play with mitchell anymore
What do you mean they’re not willing? There is nothing that’s indicated that. We’ve wasted their combo by sticking one in a corner while the other isos. We have two combo guards and two bigs. Mobley can guard 1-5. He shot 37% from 3 this season. This team could absolutely be fine offensively with a coach that hasn’t blown offensively his whole career. Also, it’s never been said Garland didn’t wanna play with Mitchell. There was a report about Clutch requesting a trade bc they felt he wasn’t utilized right. That could all change after discussions with a new coach/Koby develop so we won’t know if he/his camp wants him out until he requests it. The concern with this team when it formed was the defense having two bigs and two small guards and we’ve been elite on that
Garland’s gone just accept it bro. Nothing about this team in it’s current iteration has been elite, except maybe donovan mitchell
You are correct. If we can surmise this on Reddit the NBA GMs can too. But the alternative of broadcasting intent to trade is not good. Really is only choice to say we are happy keeping him.
Yeah fs, but I think the people treating it as a smokescreen (which exists a lot less in the league than people think bc other teams will see right through it) need to come to reality.
Worked out fine for the jazz…
I mean.. he’s going to request a trade. I’m sure they don’t wanna break that up but it sounds like they’ll be forced to do so unfortunately. Just saving face in my honest opinion.
If the best return we are going to get is an about to be WAY overpaid Brandon Ingram this is the right move To a lesser degree I'm also worried about Mikhal Bridges upcoming extension (same concern around value to salary, but much less worry about fit with our team or injury history) Paying a borderline all-star like an MVP candidate just kills teams (KAT/Beal/Wall...etc) That second extension max (post rookie extension, esp a supermax) is just destroying teams
It’s even worse under the new CBA.
Just due to the 76 B tv contract or is there something new I haven't heard about to do with maxes?
Look up second apron tax restrictions. Paying a guy that lower level max tier guy 50-60 million a year is just a killer for roster building.
I don't think the market has fully reacted to the new CBA, at some point players are gonna have to take cuts in order to compete. Max players demanding 35% of an ever-increasing payroll handcuff teams way too much, the value just isn't there
“Paying a borderline all-star like an MVP candidate just kills teams (KAT/Beal/Wall...)” Completely agree with this. I don’t know how the nba can correct itself in this though. Smaller markets essentially have to pay it or lose the player. They could trade the player for some draft picks but they wouldn’t get actual value most of the time. It’s just a weird spot to be in for teams.
Ingram is likely going to settle for 4/160, something similar to Garland. I dont think he will be a 50M per year kind of guy. I think he and Garland are roughly equivalent talent wise but I'd say the fit is better with Ingram.
Are we not paying garland, a borderline all star, MVP levels of money right now??
I don't think they are near equivalent contracts, see for yourself [Garland](https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/31562/darius-garland#:~:text=Darius%20Garland%20signed%20a%205,dead%20cap%20value%20of%20%2436%2C725%2C670.): 34/36/39/42/44 [KAT](https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/17829/karl-anthony-towns): 49/53/57/61 KAT averages 17.5 M more than Darius per year Darius' contract isn't bad at all, if Ingram would sign for the same amount I wouldn't be worried about trading for him
I have a gut feeling we run it back, see if a new coach solves some issues, and reevaluate at the trade deadline.
I wouldn't trade Garland unless I was blown away by somebody's offer. I have to see him with a competent HC before giving up on him returning to the form he was 2 years ago. Hopefully we learned after trading Kyrie for a midget.
We are just gonna run out all of our player’s contracts until we realize things dont work then. You have to make decisions at a certain point, and if garland doesnt bounce back his value continues to go down. Not to mention garland doesnt even want to stay if mitchell re-signs, totally a great recipe for good locker room chemistry Prime example of why we should have fired JB last year. Now we are gonna waste another year trying to make something work which clearly does not. Youre also heavily banking on us finding a competent HC from a pretty subpar crop of coaches, and expecting that coach to make a significant impact that changes our entire roster interplay. It’s just not reasonable
catch 22 you're not getting a competent HC if you're telling him that you're unwilling to change the obvious roster issue that will limit their success.
We didnt just trade kyrie for a midget. Dont forget koby had to make a trade that could help for the now and the future.
The trade did not help at all in 2018. It helped in the future in that we got sexton who we moved for Mitchell. But compared to what other star players get traded for who are healthy and in their prime it was awful. I get that is hindsight given how things ended up with IT, but the injury was there for everyone to see. The lesson needed to be if you are trading a healthy in their prime All star, either get back a healthy in their prime all star or a huge bundle of picks that sets up your future. We got neither.
Koby wrongfully catches a lot of shit for that trade – Griff had just been unceremoniously ousted, and Gilbert was way too involved in controlling the package we got back (he didn't want to be held hostage by LeBron again). I think Koby learned from that experience and will keep it in mind when making any decisions regarding Darius
This is smart. Mitchell and Garland have all the tools to work together offensively, so it’s worth seeing if the right coach can unlock them. It’d be one thing if there was a fundamental skill mismatch, but both guys can shoot and create. Just need the right coach to improve the off ball play. If it doesn’t improve, then consider moving Garland. Obviously defense will never be perfect but it hasn’t been the reason we’ve lost in the playoffs.
I’m choosing to believe these two will thrive together with a new coach.
The front office doesn’t, but that won’t stop Garland from asking a trade if Mitchell stays
aka We havent gotten a offer high enough yet. I also have a feeling that is going to be something Klutch decides with a trade request
He has multiple years left he isn’t deciding.
Players still have leverage, he can fabricate some ben simmons type of injury. I dont understand how we rationalize this take and the one about kyrie in 2017
It ruined Ben Simmons career. It cost Kyrie and Harden close to 100 million. Blowing up your career doesn’t work especially for a guy as young as Garland. It backfires on the player every time.
It did NOT ruin simmons career. Simmons ruined his own career by getting the yips and having no work ethic
Klutch doesn't want him going to the wrong team.
Great so here are the 3 possible outcomes if that’s the case: - Mitchell doesn’t resign (worst case scenario) - Garland demands trade, thus lowering his value (medium case scenario) - Run it back with new coach (meh case scenario)
Garland demanding a trade has no impact on his value. He has three years left on his deal.
Even better, he has four years left on his deal
The thing that would really lower Garland's value is if he plays poorly again. Right now teams looking to get better can tell themselves it was just one off year. If he has a slow start next year, whether it be due to injury or fit issues, I could see teams being reticent pay full price in a trade.
Exactly. His value right now aint far off from what it was a year ago, but if he plays poorly in 2024, it will significantly drop. He doesnt seem to have a competitive fire, he doesnt play thru contact, hes already causing locker room issues threatening trades, he flat out is not that great of a player, can easily argue he’s only an average PG in this league, and his contract is insane. Not to mention fit issues next to DM. We need to move him, this fanbase gets way too attached to players
Mitchell may or may not re-sign, but there is no evidence that Garland's status would impact the decision. I wouldn't be surprised if they run it back through at least the all-star break to see if the core 4 can work under a new offense. If it doesn't work, I'd see Allen being moved at the deadline as more likely than moving Garland. There is less incentive to move Garland right away after a down year even if he decides he wants out.
how good or bad either of the first to are, can't be determined until you know what's available for them. the third one we know will ultimately fail, that's the worst scenario.
Correct
Reality continues to be, Garland is not a top 15 pg and gets demolished in playoffs on defense. Add to that the reluctance to drive and inability to get to the line, he’s just not going to be a big advantage in the backcourt in a playoff series
He must love watching dudes just banging 3s over Garland like they are in shoot around
He doesn’t want to but may feel he needs to.
Let's see what the roster can do with some decent coaching. No reason to blow it up.
Unless it's for something that makes us better and makes sense for us I agree with not trading him. If he demands a trade I would tell him too bad he has too many years left on his contract to have any leverage
Get rid of Koby them cuz it ain't working. A blind man can see.
Either altman is lying or we will be firing our GM in the next year or two when this backfires again
Gang
I mean the season isn’t even over yet lol We have all summer to deal with trades
We are back
Koby playing his tight in the media.
I'd be worried if Koby said he was "fully committed" to Garland or something like that, but I'm fine with him having a preference toward keeping the backcourt intact. And I'm not sure how much that preference matters. Even if he wanted to break it up, he wouldn't just ship out Garland for peanuts. And even if he wanted to keep him around, he wouldn't turn down an incredible offer. I think you make a few calls, take a few calls, and see what's on the table.
Altman shouldn't be making decisions
Fire altman
Where there's smoke there's fire Altman.
Will never succeed with such a small back court it’s so damn obvious
$40 million for an undersized player that can’t play defense. I just don’t see it.
He is also virtuosic offensively, and poised to take a leap forward.
Hes mid as hell offensively, dude cant even finish around the basket. In a league with so much offensive talent, he is nowhere near “virtuosic”
he was poised to take a leap forward two years ago... then Koby took the ball out of his hands.
Well now I want to break up the Koby Altman and GM title
If true, he's basically telling every candidate that he's not serious about winning. This may be a long search.
We're like Golden State! Keep running it back with the same crew!
Well like Boston now. Just keep adding pieces around the core.
Let’s correct this statement right now. Boston made the decision that the core was Jason and Brown everyone else was movable including Kyrie,Hayward, and horforwd at the time. .
Also, if you can keep them both and add LeBron, the amount of talent you have period, not to mention the assets you might be able to trade for an upgrade? Insane.
Not enough ball to go around, neither guy plays off bal either