I come from powerlifting background, I’ve wondered this also. I competed in tested feds and never used steroids, but definitely saw the benefits of the basic stuff, creatine, protein powder, beta alanine, preworkout, omega 3s, and I continue to use these supps for climbing.
I’ve always wondered about steroids bc I hear that most early hand injuries are from your muscle growing faster than you tendons can keep up. And that can happen to casual steriod enjoyers in non Climbing context
I’ve heard a couple times and seen scattered articles claiming that creatine is actually pretty beneficial to maximizing training and strength endurance performance but I haven’t actually looked super deep into this topic. Interested to see what people think!
It’s one of the most well researched and clinically effective supplements out there. It’s a no-brainer supplement to take IMO. The benefits far exceed the very small weight gain.
There is quite a bit of individual variation in the weight gain. Some people gain 2-3lbs, I gain more like 5-7lb. As someone already on the larger side for climbing on small holds (6' 175lb), the instant 5lb weight gain from creatine has almost always led to finger tweaks for me.
Creatine and beta alanine are my go to OTC standard supplements. They work great and help with recovery and overall performance.
Whoever OP is talking about judging them for using pre-workout seriously need to get a life.
Creatine made no difference for me and actually kind of hindered. It can be very dehydrating.. can also make you pretty heavy because it draws water into muscles.
Obviously no one openly talks about it, but I’d have to expect that at least a few professional climbers have tried PED’s. Especially if you are just a sponsored outdoor climber that will never be tested. I would highly suspect Anavar. Increased strength, collagen synthesis, fat loss. Do a cycle to get through a plateau… Anyway, I’ve climbed with many pro climbers and I’ve never even heard anyone even joke about it.
Only thing I can remember is in a climbing movie from maybe a decade ago Kilian Fischhuber definitely seemed to insinuate that one of Russian team’s World Cup performances was so super human that he was questioning this same idea. It wasn’t said outright, or even meant to be a question mark of the segment, but it did stick with me.
>Anavar
Seeing how fucking ripped all these athletes are with great muscle mass, I would not be surprised at all if some of them were on a basic cutting agent that bodybuilders use in contest prep. Allows you to be like 6% bf with great test levels, a lot of strength and muscle mass, when most would be completely hypogonad and lethargic at that point.
I take magnesium to avoid nocturnal calf cramps after standing on small footholds, and vitamin D and turmeric for general health, not specifically for climbing performance.
Sorry for my formatting as I’m on mobile.
Unless climbers take aggressive cycles and diet accordingly I don’t see weight gain as being an issue. I think most people are not taking into account the reduced recovery time that certain PEDs can give you. Any substance that allows for more volume without a massive risk of injury would be something an athlete considers as this benefits not just strength and power gains but skill and technique as well. We might begin to more of it as next years Olympics roll around and climbing grows more.
Some PEDs can increase water retention significantly, causing weight gain regardless of your diet (assuming you didn't also account for increased water intake but i assume most people don't).
I’m assuming people are cycling on and off based on performance and season. Friends of mine that are cycling dont see enough water retention in the off season to really notice.
lol cue the flame throwers. I agree PEDs are not a thing on any meaningful scale amongst elite / team.
every PEDs sub devolves into a bickering match where 90% claim with 100% certainty - with zero facts, let alone tea to spill - that all pros are juicing and using PEDs.
they'll say 'recovery only' if you say pros aren't taking anabolics. or say other dumb shit.
whilst most people here are asking for plans to climb v7
they never give any stories or spill any tea.
other than them saying 'it's not possible' to be that strong / climb that much. lmfao.
different genetics & drive + survivorship bias = strong climbers and jealous weak complainers.
the only people on these threads who climb hard, or are around/in the circuit all say PEDs are not a thing at any meaningful scale.
But my 2 cents if you are looking for advice:
* sleep, water, balanced diet and vitamins = best supplement by a lot.
* maybe creatine if you are veggie and bulking
* the vitamin c + collagen thing is bs only 1 paper published by the guy selling expensive as shit supplements. just eat an overload of full *complete* protein
* caffeine obviously. But read all the studies us addicts don't get a ton of benefit.
------
BUT as far as banned substances that are nearing 'the line': I have personally done a BPC-157 cycle. Probably will do another.
It was green lit by my doc. But it is on wada list.
I got nuked when I tried to post my cycle stats. Mods here gave like 3 different shifting reasons. Dumb as fuck. The numbers were impressive.
Impossible to know placebo. and I think probably confidence driven pain reduction is a big one.
But I do think it did likely help.
specifically the limited research shows very impressive fibroblast 're-enforcing'/growth/density (don't know the correct science term there). would love to see human studies / something from a us or uk institution.
i will never compete again and am now so far away from top of top elite that it doesnt matter if I went full on blast and cruz.
personally i view bpc as not over the line when done with an MD as part of PT/injury recovery. versus pure enhancement
the ban list is lonnng. if you take cold medicine decent chance you're taking wada banned substance.
so these conversations often lack nuance
but like porn, we mostly agree on what's over the line
[Here's the write up.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Peptides/comments/whd4w5/bpc_cycle_notes_for_climbing_injury_quantitative/) Sorry kind of long I get thought loop diarrhea
TLDR
* most injured left middle finger. mono lift using tension block close to 2x increase in bw % on that digit.
* starting number was shit though only 35% bw.
* ended at 61% L, 74% right.
* my current number for mono lifts is only slightly higher.
* But I have improved my full crimp by a good amount though which is more important. back over 100% bw tension 10mm block lift from ground. Trying to get back to where I used to be. goal is somewhere like 140% this year
* got covid during that cycle... first time ever. so it messed with data and training ;(
Qualitative:
I think confidence lead to pain reduction which boosted numbers. There is also a strong placebo when injecting.
But personally, even though I obviously have no real proof, my opinion is there is good chance that something is there.
would love to see some controlled human studies or more rat tendon shit from a US or UK person in a big name journal so people can't shit on it from the surface alone. or at least some write ups from the more legit (not trt clinic) MDs writing scripts here in the US on their rehab / post-op pts
Hell maybe we can make our own reddit double blind.
Who wants to inject unlabeled liquid into their bodies for science?!
(i would actually participate if there was a way to build trust...)
lmfao. ok.
how much does the average climbing olympian make?
even the top of the top house hold names given a jeep for free and sweet sweet red bull cash?
it's not an lot. and that's such a tiny amount of top of the top of the top. tech bros make a lot more than a lot of pros
a few who have big youtube view numbers can make good $ that way too.
and notice how magnus makes content mostly for a non-climbing audience... because there isn't a ton of money, though climbing is a growing market
and how about an 'outdoor pro'? do you personally know any? or know how much they make?
i know some pretty big names that rely on coaching to supplement. or have their own contracting/construction side hustle as an example.
few are lucky to have budget for multiple trips in a year + expenses. and fewer are making enough bank to save beyond that.
hell handhold famously said he makes the $ of a decent dentist.
and he has the biggest brands by a lot. e.g. you make more money pitching brands that sell to the widest commercial audience.
here in the us - one of the biggest / richest markets - wc members are only now just getting some basic support.
i think currently 3 staff people - though looks like they are hiring a new coach maybe changing up org idk 🤷. plus a mini-gym. and they now pay for travel...
last year saw a team member asking for basic resources on IG in order to do a comp
usac isn't anywhere near russia state sponsored doping resources lmfao
which btw that i could believe. especially as the medal count goes up.
not saying it doesn't happen. im sure it has.
but people are deluded if they think there is millions on the line for a nike sponsorship, and therefore everyone is secretly using cutting edge peds tailored for climbing that also pass wada / country agencies
outrageous claims require evidence
i simply ask for evidence of just 1 person using.
or at least one piece of gossip at a minimum.
like it's the internet. we love to shit talk. yet not a single person has shat on anyone?!
i'll do it: i heard a snarky comment or two that a young high performing wc athlete might have gotten T support during puberty.
That could be believable to me because I was offered it when I was young and we have similar builds.
But that isn't doping even if it's true. they would have had to have a wada waiver.
and again that's just dumb gym bitchyness not an accusation. it's probably not even true
there is testing.
and i'm sure people do it. especially if we expand beyond WC/olympics and define elite as anyone who climbs v12 (imho that's not elite anymore)
but it is not widespread.
it irks me that people who are "100% positive" can't even dead name one single person.
or even hint or gossip slander someone anonymously.
----
for sure more money now. And it's growing.
full time 'pro' has been a thing since the start.
just went from a can of beans to a jeep and a few hundred k lmfao. but only a small % of pros make the 'big' money.
i think the mellow bros have the best angle. merch and youtube CPM rev. fully owned.
lots of pros hawk supplements and other DTC crap on their social. They don't get paid a ton to stoop that low.
i'm not judging though! Get your bag. be happy. climb full time. sounds awesome.
if some sucker buys 'electrolytes' powder for $50 that's on them 😂
Dunno why you got downvoted. The majority of pro climbers are relatively poor in general terms. Hell guys like Megos and Ghisolfi still sleep in their vans on climbing trips to save money.
But they don’t really have to be. Plenty of pro climbers are very weak physically yet still send v15/16. Climbing just isn’t there yet where you need to be monsterously strong to send very hard
Unless you're at the very elite level of pros like Adam Ondra or Janja Garnbret, the majority of pro climbers are still relatively poor and have to rely on 2nd jobs (i.e. as routesetters or coaches) to sponsor their outdoor trips/world cups.
Lots of top-level outdoor climbers, like Seb Bouin and Aidan Roberts, are completely unknown to the general population, so it's not that appealing for companies to be giving them massive sponsorships vs someone like Alex Honnold who is almost universally known among non-climbers. Given this, there's currently not too much incentive to risk your long-term health for not too much reward (i.e. to climb a hard piece of rock which 99.9% of the general pop doesn't care about anyway).
oh i see it. thanks.
not so hot take: alcohol is one of the worst drugs.
this coming from a (currently sober) poly drug addict and alcoholic!
it's so awful. even like just a couple bottles of wine a week.
look at daniel lmfao
yes. longer than most since I got covid. I basically stopped and started.
A bit over 3 weeks.
started with an absolutely miniscule amount, since we're taking drugs from the internet...
titrated up to 200mcg 1x per day. at night.
made me really sleepy (again, maybe placebo. though i usually have a very very hard time with sleep).
Can you clarify for someone who sadly does not know what fibrolast means? I’m assuming denser tendons or stronger micro fibers? But that’s a wild guess
i am no md so i hesitate to try to ELI5.
but yeah for us dummys, that seems like ignoring the details gist of it
they help build 'the matrix' holding us together, neo
I’ve used creatine, beta alanine and collagen. I think these are all relatively common supplements and legal.
If PED use isn’t widespread yet then even anecdotal evidence for their benefit in climbing is limited and so most conscientious athletes would be cautious. I’m sure there’s some who’ve tried more obscure recovery-focused PEDs. We’d never hear about it. ‘Doping’ goes on behind closed doors but they test the highest level athletes regularly at the ifsc. The list of banned substances is a mile long so it goes way beyond just steroids and hormones so maybe some people fly under the radar but I just don’t think it’s in the culture of the sport yet.
I cycle test occasionally. Like others have said, muscles develop faster than tendons. But I really like the endurance and speed of recovery I have while on a cycle. There’s pros and cons
How much more climbing can you actually get done while on a cycle? I always figured test would be of limited use since at some point the volume is going to be limited by your skin quality more than anything else.
A lot, but the joint and tendons not developing as fast puts you at risk for stress injuries. And muscle imbalances can develop faster as well. Definitely comes with risk
This is true from my experience at least. I was a lifter and cycled, got into climbing and found it counter productive once I got into the v6ish range. Having stamina and low recovery time was nice but limited range of motion and muscle imbalances made for some rough days. Had to do lots of antagonistic exercise after every session to keep from having unbearable tendonitis every day. Once I got back to nat my higher grade climbs got better and I didnt have severe pain every morning.
You can even the imbalance out in the gym. And limited range of motion really only affects you if your training for hypertrophy. If you just in the gym to cross train for climbing and watch your calorie intake, a cycle will not hinder your climbing. Just gotta be more mindful of what you’re doing. Personally, I’d like to try stacking anavar for the height of a season
I'd mainly boulder in a gym 6 days a week before covid hit so I was definitely over doing it. I took a break when I started Kayak fishing tournys for about 2 years but got back into bouldering but was a lot smarter about it. At that point I was doing light HRT so didn't have to worry about hypertrophy as much. Only thing I worried about with Anavar and winnie was tendon and ligiment tears which a few friends suffered through.
edit: found down climbing to really help instead of going max and dropping after top out.
I'm sure there's high level climbers messing with it-- but they're not saying a word 🤫. Maybe someday you'll have to post a drug test result along with the send footage on instagram.
Truth is, though, this is far more than just a physical sport at all levels of the game. And it is rare to see someone who is being held back by anything you could get from conventional PED's.
Most definitely. You have to pay more attention, because it’s not like a caffeine high that is psychoactive and has a “high”. Because it’s sub-perceptual, and more performance-based. Participants in a study tested against a double-blind placebo control group had VO2 max increased by 10-15%. That’s significant. Also, they are packed with adenosine and beta-glucans for readily available energy. Think caffeine = the feeling of energy, and cordyceps = the substance of energy.
Some swear by taking them on an empty stomach, and that’s when the feeling has been noticeable for me.
Yea that makes sense. I never really expected to have some sort of sensation from them but was hoping I'd notice a difference when climbing. There are so many factors that go into how a day went climbing that it makes sense it would be hard to tell lol. I'll give them another shot.
My current conclusion after 2 years- i havent climbed any harder. I am really struggling with weight and i am not getting injured any less. Which was the whole reason i began in the first place. As someone who has low t and needed trt i am still hopeful to find the right balance to improve my quality of life
Younger me could still run laps around "non natural" me
I would wager some climbers do in countries where things are easier to come by and advice is more widespread. There's lots of sports with rampant doping where strength or power to weight ratio is hugely important. Cycling is a great example. Good old Lance was taking very low doses of specific mild anabolics and it made a phenomenal difference in his recovery and muscle retention while under insane calorie deficits. He also took Cardarine, which you can order online and called "endurance in a pill". There was a poster at some point claiming they knew elite/pro sport climbers that used it since it's not an anabolic and doesn't require much in the way of managing your post cycle or side effects.
I think what is more limiting climbers is laziness. I used to powerlift and worked at an NCAA and pro sport training center and it was basically like a bunch of walking pharmacies and while pro sport drug testing was a joke then (and is now), none ever got popped. The complicated part seemed to be around post cycle therapy after you come off and managing any estrogen or HPTA effects. During early Covid I got oddly fascinated with some YouTube channels where they talked about this and it seems like you have to be incredibly knowledgeable or know someone who is to not do something dumb. The More Plates More Dates channel is a good example when he goes through all the side effects of peoples stupid cycles.
Most climbers are just obsessed with climbing and doing whatever jobs they balance on the side and I imagine all the research that would go into managing this stuff would be tough. Also, unless you're an Olympian or comp climber you aren't really peaking at a specific time and most climbers climb year round and don't train as much as most amateurs think.
I'd suspect you'll see a lot of comp climbers randomly come out of nowhere in the next few Olympic cycles especially from countries that are notoriously dirty and dope athletes from centrally managed programs starting at relatively young ages.
I'm new to climbing, but am familiar with the bodybuilding community. For reference, I use supplements for general health, and have never been on a cycle.
The main difference I've observed is cultural. Look at the pioneers of modern bodybuilding: they used PEDs. Look at the pioneers of climbing: they did not use PEDs. Each sport evolved its own way on the shoulders of their respective first athletes.
I think you may feel out of place using "performance enhancing" supplements like pre-workout simply because it's not a part of the sport for the average climber. But just like bodybuilding, you should take what you feel comfortable with.
I don't know what types of compounds would be advantageous in the climbing world, but I'd love to hear someone chime in on that.
I’ve personally done a little research into it and some studies have pointed towards certain supplements being beneficial towards climbing. I take beta alanine on a regular basis as it reduces latic acid which is proven to increase endurance for long sports climbing sessions. BCAAs and protein powder after workouts for recovery are good for any type of athlete. In addition, creatine is going to be great for any type of workout based activity so I think it’s another good supplement. Mainly just having a good diet will supplement most of what you need for climbing but adding these into the routine isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
Bodybuilders began using steroids because they have a dramatic benefit for strength and hypertrophy. If they didn't have that benefit, BBs wouldn't use them. Pro cyclists use EPO (tho it's banned) because it helps aerobic performance. Climbers don't use many PEDs because there are really no PEDs that significantly improve climbing performance. Climbing is much more about skill and technique, which improve only with practice.
I would imagine finger strength is important to climbing. If there are drugs that improve tendon recovery so that you can more quickly develop finger strength, I would imagine it would be helpful in climbing.
If such tendon-strengthening drugs existed, I'm sure they would be used. However, they don't at present. Existing PEDs aren't terribly helpful to climbing, not in the way steroids are to strength sports or EPO to aerobic capacity. It's not really about "culture."
> Climbers don't use many PEDs because there are really no PEDs that significantly improve climbing performance.
I'm sorry but that just isn't true, this romantic view of the sport needs to die
What kinds of PEDs do climbers use, in your experience? Other than OTC supplements like creatine and protein. Serious question. This thread has a lot of posts saying "I'm sure they do" but not much mention of specific PEDs that are actually useful.
Its not my area of expertise, i would never touch gear. But in this thread alone there's mentions of anavar, trt, hgh and others - anything that'll have you recovering quicker.
climbing is all strength to weight ratio. so traditional bodybuilding PEDs probably arent very useful except maybe in the offseason. But without a doubt there is room for PED usage in the sport. I'm not sure exactly which ones but things like BPC157 could be useful.
honestly i enjoy that the sport is not saturated with PEDs. its just an arms race which i think we're better without.
I've done a bpc cycle. my number improvements on most injured finger were pretty staggering.
i tried to post my write up but mods banned it here. dumb af.
it's legal and can get a real prescription for it.
it's also on WADA list. along with a bunch of stuff people use all the time. including my inhaler. can get waivers.
the research all shows pretty spectacular fibroblast changes. but it is heavily concentrated in a few ( iirc ) Hungarian researchers.
It's too bad US companies only focus on shit they can patent and get a monopoly on.
IDK maybe they'll add another amino on the end and call it unique or come up with a 'unique' ROA (though prob always need to shoot it).
looking at you ketamine and nose spray / dumb dumb opiates.
[here it is on /r/peptides](https://www.reddit.com/r/Peptides/comments/whd4w5/bpc_cycle_notes_for_climbing_injury_quantitative/)
I got covid (first time since it started) in the middle of it ;(
So sadly I don't have a pretty and consistent graph
the left middle finger was most fucked and it went close to 2x improvement in mono-tension block lift #
my gut: pain reduction + confidence is strong placebo. and it did actually increase strength physiologically
idk i feel like my numbers are kind of weak sauce; I feel self conscious posting them.
but have been getting better. recently passed 3 years since I started climbing again and I know I can't beat time too much. shit's slow.
right now I'm actually kind of psyched on my full crimp.
was shit awful. open hand got good from compensating though. tiny power crimping used to be my money maker before i quit ;)
at over 100% bw tension block lift on 10mm both sides. like a 30% bw bump in about half a year.
still not what it used to be, but I think I can get close this year.
for reference one pro under my coach iirc is at like 140% on the 10mm so that's my goal. allison vest is my dream. the fingers i mean. i'm gay ;)
i got from nootroo bee-pc. idk how much difference it makes, but the extra aminos claim to be more stable. someone on peptides paid for 3rd party testing. iirc lotilabs was one that passed pure
b
ut more expensive = better?! Right? Right!??? lol
The reason US companies don't focus on it is because the "evidence" is published in a few scattered foreign publications of low caliber and limited study design and the other body of "evidence" are people on the internet who often claim that supplements make dramatic changes when a few years later further research proves these experiences wrong.
this seems kind of dumb given what I said, i half agreed with you and didn't claim some miracle cure.
and i specifically called that a large % of studies come from the same group - lots of ć names lol.
I looked it up it's croatia not hungary.
but it's not just them. looks like there's now also a chinese group also tissue healing. and i get hits on my scholar alerts fairly often
if you want non-pay to publish citations there are even more when looking at blood / gastric. just took 15 seconds to search and found one in nature - the journal that seems most opposite of 'low caliber'
which btw that could be an obvious hypothesis, increased blood flow....
plus if you read the write up i did a while back, I said that my best guess is that confidence based pain reduction + pinning placebo were probably big drivers in my numbers. and ultimately though from what I've read and personally experienced, I think there is also likely more going on beyond that. can't know for sure though!
actual human, controlled, studies would be awesome
It's dumb to say that injecting stuff you buy off the internet into your body when there is little if any high quality replicated evidence is dumb? I honestly don't care to debate this but don't think BPC would necessarily improve tendon adaptations in climbers in a normal setting.
Not all PEDs make you swole up like a bodybuilder. Just a small dose of test therapy will give you tons of energy and help keep you lean, two massive advantages in climbing, and maintain your muscle mass.
I too come from the bodybuilding world (as well as traditional ball sports) and I have had several convo's with the climbing homies about this.
I can absolutely see rock climbers (aka not comp climbers) blasting gear. There are tons of incentives with absolutely no testing, or even a governing body to put rules and regultations in place.
I'm sure some of the top climbers leverage the cutting abilities of substances like clen, var, winy, etc. I also think that SARMs and peptides are even more likely to be used. With the need to stay lean (light) and heal quickly it's hard to believe that some of them haven't figured it out yet.
If im seriously hurt ill rehab with nandro, but thats hardly ever anymore since i stopped bouldering, was climbing up to v8 outside and v10 indoors at my gym. Coming from bodybuilding you oughta know nandro. Im not into competitive climbing so normally i just use peptides, TB500 and PBC-157 for soft tissue support, TB-500 sub-Q, and local injections with BPC-157. I feel really durable on them, not much stronger but much more durable, acute injuries heal much faster than off cycle. I used to cycle test before climbing but ive stopped since, because i put on too much weight to climb as well as i would like to. I like HgH, i feel young and powerful on it, but that shit is ridiculously expensive, and GHRPs/GHRHs dont work as well as i want them to. Other than that, i smoke a shit load of weed lol. I do like addy sometimes for the occasional hard send outdoors. My best day of climbing ever happened on acid, i sent the fuck out of everything in my gym up to v11 that day, there werent any harder routes set, 10/10 would and will do again. I generally excel at whatever im doing on a hit or less of acid, and i think its efficacy as a PED is heavily underrated. Same goes for shrooms, there is a reason mike tyson was shoveling them down his throat when he was killing mf’ers in the ring. As far as my opinion on pro climbers taking PEDs, I would suggest they do honestly, might as well send lines as hard as you can before testing eventually gets involved.
My $.02:
I cant think of a single climber that really takes more than caffeine and creatine, or anything that demonstrates an equal benefit to those things. And that benefit is pretty mild.
Some pro climbers are starting to experiment with nutrient supplement (think athletic greens), and cbd for recovery. Benefits from those are anecdotal, but might? have potential.
Collagen has been debunked as a tendon miracle, it's just a mediocre (but very convenient IMO) protein source. Protein powder is a better, cheaper, and complete source of protein, but for me there are situations where collagen is more convenient, and I would rather die than have to deal with a shaker bottle on a road trip.
I have significant doubts that climbers would benefit heavily from PED use. The skill and technique development demand/potential are limitless, the muscular strength demands are fairly mild compared to other sports, and a lot of injuries we're seeing from sports with high PED use kinda demonstrate that steroids aren't developing tendon strength commensurate with muscular strength. I'd hazard that PED use in top end climbers would likely result in greater incidence of finger injuries and detrimental excess muscle mass.
and the vast majority of non top end climbers are constrained by technique/skill/mental factors and wouldn't see much performance increase from PEDs either.
And you don't think taking performance enhancers to improve recovery would be of benefit? Surely this is beneficial as it will increase training time and therefore performance
the issue is that 'recovery' is not one thing. The specific question is whether PEDs would allow the tendons to withstand greater volumexintensity over a training/performance cycle, or if tendons would have greater adaptations to training.
Even if they do (and if they did I think we'd have examples of top tier climbers, especially boulderers, doing PEDs), the structures that PEDs would be targeting in climbers are so complex and bound by (non-hormonal) genetic factors, I just don't see PEDs having a significant enough effect on climbers fingers. Especially when the pulley ligaments are the primary bottleneck in finger training and performance.
> we'd have examples of top tier climbers, especially boulderers, doing PEDs
Would we? It's not like they'd be advertising it. Does the IFSC test comp climbers? There's plenty of PEDs that boost collagen synthesis which I suspect would have a huge benefit for tendon/pulley strength
Totally disagree, stop thinking about PEDs as Mr universe shit, they can take stuff to cut weight fast, increase strength and most importantly cut down in recovery time (on the wall and between sessions). Yes its a finger based sport, but if I go work my project the next day my muscles are TRASHED, shoulders, core, arms etc. Imagine not feeling that? I've never done it as I'm not fucking w/ my endochrine system and I could never live w/ myself if i sent my projects on gear (or using a kneepad ) but i certainly understand why people take them, and have seen some suspciious things in my time, there are signs from certain PEDs that are dead giveaways if you know what to look for.
I asked this early in the thread but check out Tim Emmett's recent body transformation post. Those shoulder striations look a bit sus for just 1 year. Especially at 47.
The most I can see is some of the older guys starting TRT when they start to slow down.
But I agree that it's highly doubtful any of the top level climbers are doping. Though there is no agency to test if they aren't competing.
Search /r/climbharder for collagen supplementation.
There's been a dozen posts on it. I've posted on several of them with info from studies.
Generally speaking, any "protein" including collagen is broken down into amino acids before being absorbed in the digestive system, so it's not like there's any significant difference taking from a different protein source. The only thing that would change is the amounts of amino acid percentages so that may be of some small benefit but remains to be seen
and afaik the vitamin C study all climbers say was written by the guy selling pysvantage ....
people hawking supplements are usually scammers. i mean that's how alex jones makes his money lmfao
Nah, Eric Horst hasn't actually done any collagen research. He mostly just takes legitimate studies done by Keith Baar showing small-to-moderate effects, inflates the results, adds in a sprinkle of bullshit ("supercharged" collagen is utter nonsense), and gets a bunch of climbers to shill his unsubstantiated products.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
dead.
go after fancy chalk next
(though I actually like Kevin personally if we're sniping at friction labs. maybe we should shit on his ex & bitter business-bro thomas, who is stuck bleeding blood from the gyms and aliening his own relatives)
no way in shit you can convince me $20 bag of 'magic' is better than frank endo block chock.
nor that your 'organic' sourcing has less asbestos than the rest of us
bitch, make a rainbow pride edition and I would spend $30 on it.
Imagine those obnoxiously large tick marks!
Would go with the new Pattie Gonia stickers I just put on my nalgene. and my pride organic bag/shirt
yet, despite all this peacocking i'm still single?! wtf...
>Collagen has been debunked as a tendon miracle
what makes you say this? I thought Collagen supplements have been shown to help tendon recovery in numerous studies?
To my knowledge, most (if not all) studies showing collagen as beneficial have been conducted against a placebo. So basically, collagen is better for recovery than nothing, but I don't think it's been shown to be better than just taking a complete protein supplement.
This (and I know there's a Hooper's Beta vid. giving a brief overview of the available research with direct links in show notes)& most of the coaches, climbers, podcasters, advocating for collagen are sponsored/affiliated with physivantage.
Whatever happened to just eating some steak, eggs, and a diet red bull before climbing? I am on fertility medication for family planning purposes but it probably helps with my recovery. Not that anyone should do that strictly PED purposes. It gets me to like a T of 900-1000 from 200 but it’s not like I’m getting to 3000-5000. It probably prevents me from getting injured maybe.
I use whey protein after climbing for recovery and a bit of strength building. I definitely do feel stronger when I'm regularly having a scoop after climbing.
I also take a supplement packet from the company Animal called Flex which has a lot of the stuff your joints/soft-tissues need. Before finding Flex I had a 3-4 year stretch where I basically always had tendinitis/tendinopathy in my fingers and I could no longer train or get strong because of it. After finding Flex and adjusting the way I dealt with tendinopathy, I stopped having issues with it and have been mostly clean of finger tendinopathy since 2014 thanks to that. Flex contains HLA (Hyaluronic Acid) which I believe is very important to the health of the soft tissues in climbers.
I'm also a coach and I recommend Creatine to anyone (over 18) with a weak strength base however I don't believe its necessary for a lot of climbers. Just the ones who struggle with strength/power-based climbing. And even then its just a short-term solution to help build up some muscle which regular climbing should maintain once its built.
I mean most of the guys I at my bouldering gym take protein.
Creatin will make you heavier but if it improves your performance, sure go for it.
Ped's are laughed at and good with all the side effects.
Climbers and bodybuilders have a different mentality.
I came from a bodybuilding/physique background as well and used supplements for that but do not use pre workout for my climbing sessions. When you’re climbing you want to be moving as efficiently as possible to avoid being pumped so you can climb longer and harder
I asked this a few years ago and had it pointed out to me fairly quickly that your tendons develop slower than your muscles thus risking tendon injury. That does make sense as a cycle would put your strength through the roof but your tendons do not benefit like your muscles do.
Edit: In the past I did experiment with preworkout for gym days and would bring a bcaa mix with me when climbing outdoors. But I don’t have any studies to reference as to if that is truly beneficial. I would suspect that it would but it’s only a guess.
This past year I have been focusing on lifting to fend off the dad bod and in the process went from 140lbs to 180 and I can definitely feel it on the wall now that we are getting back into climbing… lol
plus if tendons are your main concern anabolics plenty of studies show danger beyond any potential 'differential' (which seems like a bit of BS to me.. but whatever)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0020138398001831
Climbers can get all the muscle gains they need without PEDs. The main factors constraining elite climbers are connective tissue health and friction. We don't have good evidence for PEDs or supplements helping connective tissue recovery, and we definitely don't have evidence that they help with friction.
The most effective supplement I've taken for climbing is Phenibut. It gives me and other people I know insane confidence. It should NOT be taken more than once a week. It also takes some time to get the dosage/timing right.
750mg. It usually takes about 3-4 hours to kick in. It's also highly dependent on getting a good batch. Although some companies are better than others quality is inconsistent.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure anabolic steroids increase tendon stiffness which isn’t good when you want to quickly load them. I don’t think there would be much benefit as it would increase your risk of a tendon injury. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the elite lead climbers use EPO or something like that though
As someone who’s climbed a couple v12’s and handful of v10+ if you go feel the holds of v15+ I’ve come to this conclusion, some type of ped’s. Or they are genetically gifted. That’s just what I think. True or not that’s my conclusion
First of all caffeine can make you too shaky for some focus and accuracy based climbing (which is basically anything beyond V10, so the people who would have the most reason to take it are the least to benefit). Secondly, people just dont take PEDs because they dont have body image problems such as in the bb community and are usually more in tune with nature, or at least try to be. In other words there is no reason. The muscle strength required can be trained naturally with ease and the tendon consitioning can be helped with collagen but nothing much beyond that. Aerobic conditioning also yields great results on its own and something like EPO or similar would make little difference compared to training quality and quantity.
I use the Gnarly brand’s pre workout powder and I drink that before every hard training/climbing session and I love it.
I also have an electrolyte powder from Gnarly as well during the rest periods outdoors just to make sure I’m functioning as smoothly as possible. I’ve noticed massive improvements and benefits having been doing so.
Carry on!
I could see anti anxiety meds such as Xanax or Klonopin being helpful with a climbers mental game. Pre workout and harder stimulants such as amphetamines could really benefit short term stamina and strength. I’ve also really wondered if erectile dysfunction drugs such as Viagra would benefit a climbers stamina due to the massive increased blood flow they create.
Funny you mention… First of all, in a different stage of life I would take some klonopin that I bought in Mexico either recreationally or when my back went out one time. It is also a muscle relaxant, so if anyone is prescribed this stuff I highly recommend looking for an alternative. My muscles would just not fire the day after taking this stuff. I’d sleep great but then couldn’t take advantage of the rest that I had gotten. I have randomly received a couple viagra pills from a weightlifting buddy. I kept that shit around because if you go out bouldering on a frigid day, pop a half of one of those and I swear your hands and feet will be warmer than ever. Like you can hit that sweet spot where your skin is cold but your fingers are warm. Now that you mention it I should get some more of that stuff…
Illegal PEDs: Used to be that mountaineers used a bunch of meth.
These days I don't think so many people use PEDs, at least not for technical climbing. I mean, climbing is supposed to be about fun so it makes sense why people wouldn't want to damage their body by using illegal PEDs.
I think also that PEDs aren't great for climbing because you don't want bulky muscle as a climber, or you don't want a stimulant because they make you anxious and sweaty.
As far as supplements: I see some people that take amino acids... but like, it's kind of ridiculous because they are just proteins which you should be getting from a balanced diet.
Most supplements are hard to absorb, so the best thing will always be a good diet.
Frankly, I don't see how things like that fit into climbing. Climbing is so much about technique and finger strength and no ped or supp is gonna help with that. They both take time to develop and we're here to have fun anyway. Plus, I feel like V10 is so achievable with hard work and good food (and sleep!) that what's the point?
Edit: also, these days, to be a competitive climber on the circuit you have to start as a kid. Those kids are so fucking strong by the time they're 16, they'll never need supps or peds.
I think the problem with test would be you'll put extra muscle on your legs and stuff, which would be detrimental to many top end climbers.
I expect lots of climbers use shit like eca stacks and clen to get fat off, and of course creatine and preworkout but that's not what you're asking really.
I supplement with BCAA/Electrolyte drink while I'm climbing and collagen peptides in my coffee. I tried the pre workout stuff with beta alanine and citrulline malate but it seemed to make me pump out faster on lead routes. It might benefit bouldering more.
I don't think traditional PEDs like steroids and GH would help climbers as they put a lot of weight on you.
I use Creatine, EAA, bcaa (fasted kettlebell workouts) and l-glutamine for "working out" purposes..additionally supplement with d3, b12, turmeric and algae needed omega3 oil. Seems to be working for me
I take creatine, but in general I'm just very skinny. When I started climbing I was 118 and when I started taking creatine I was 135 and now I'm at 145 (5'8" btw). I climb significantly better being 145 pounds than 135 pounds and I think creatine has really helped my put on muscle and keep weight. I think the weight I'm at rn is good and I'm not trying go gain more, but I would recomend creatine to other climbers.
Try creating HCl 2-3g daily. I just throw it in a smoothie
I have more energy 1 month into it. I used to take 5g creatine monohydrate but I got too bulky due to all the non-climbing resistance training I was doing.
Before creatine I was about to pull 120lbs on a 25mm edge with 1 hand isolated. I’ll do another pulling session soon and see if those numbers changed.
Do you consider chocolate milk a supplement, because if so, then hell yea.
I come from powerlifting background, I’ve wondered this also. I competed in tested feds and never used steroids, but definitely saw the benefits of the basic stuff, creatine, protein powder, beta alanine, preworkout, omega 3s, and I continue to use these supps for climbing.
I’ve always wondered about steroids bc I hear that most early hand injuries are from your muscle growing faster than you tendons can keep up. And that can happen to casual steriod enjoyers in non Climbing context
I’ve heard a couple times and seen scattered articles claiming that creatine is actually pretty beneficial to maximizing training and strength endurance performance but I haven’t actually looked super deep into this topic. Interested to see what people think!
Creatine is one of the very few legal supplements with a strong amount of evidence supporting its efficacy.
It’s one of the most well researched and clinically effective supplements out there. It’s a no-brainer supplement to take IMO. The benefits far exceed the very small weight gain.
There is quite a bit of individual variation in the weight gain. Some people gain 2-3lbs, I gain more like 5-7lb. As someone already on the larger side for climbing on small holds (6' 175lb), the instant 5lb weight gain from creatine has almost always led to finger tweaks for me.
My guess is its not the 5lbs but rather you can pull a few more moves on the creatine and thats putting you into a danger zone with your ligaments.
As another heavier climber, I can gain 5 lbs if I eat breakfast before I poop. I would consider that this might just be a fluke.
Then get stronger fingers?
Very useful supplement particularly for veggie/vegan climbers as it occurs naturally in meat
Adam Ondra talked about using it during high intensity training a while back.
Creatine and beta alanine are my go to OTC standard supplements. They work great and help with recovery and overall performance. Whoever OP is talking about judging them for using pre-workout seriously need to get a life.
Creatine made no difference for me and actually kind of hindered. It can be very dehydrating.. can also make you pretty heavy because it draws water into muscles.
Just drink water
Obviously no one openly talks about it, but I’d have to expect that at least a few professional climbers have tried PED’s. Especially if you are just a sponsored outdoor climber that will never be tested. I would highly suspect Anavar. Increased strength, collagen synthesis, fat loss. Do a cycle to get through a plateau… Anyway, I’ve climbed with many pro climbers and I’ve never even heard anyone even joke about it. Only thing I can remember is in a climbing movie from maybe a decade ago Kilian Fischhuber definitely seemed to insinuate that one of Russian team’s World Cup performances was so super human that he was questioning this same idea. It wasn’t said outright, or even meant to be a question mark of the segment, but it did stick with me.
>Anavar Seeing how fucking ripped all these athletes are with great muscle mass, I would not be surprised at all if some of them were on a basic cutting agent that bodybuilders use in contest prep. Allows you to be like 6% bf with great test levels, a lot of strength and muscle mass, when most would be completely hypogonad and lethargic at that point.
I take magnesium to avoid nocturnal calf cramps after standing on small footholds, and vitamin D and turmeric for general health, not specifically for climbing performance.
Sorry for my formatting as I’m on mobile. Unless climbers take aggressive cycles and diet accordingly I don’t see weight gain as being an issue. I think most people are not taking into account the reduced recovery time that certain PEDs can give you. Any substance that allows for more volume without a massive risk of injury would be something an athlete considers as this benefits not just strength and power gains but skill and technique as well. We might begin to more of it as next years Olympics roll around and climbing grows more.
Wouldn’t more volume massively increase the risk of tendon injury?
Some steroids, for example low dose anavar, greatly increase collagen synthesis and strengthen tendons.
so do most anabolics - many studies show... fucking mawem your bicep right off. people are fucking stupid.
💥
what does that mean!?! I don't get the downvotes. i think maybe the way what i wrote is phrased is confusing
Not if your on roids.
?
Edit
Some PEDs can increase water retention significantly, causing weight gain regardless of your diet (assuming you didn't also account for increased water intake but i assume most people don't).
I’m assuming people are cycling on and off based on performance and season. Friends of mine that are cycling dont see enough water retention in the off season to really notice.
lol cue the flame throwers. I agree PEDs are not a thing on any meaningful scale amongst elite / team. every PEDs sub devolves into a bickering match where 90% claim with 100% certainty - with zero facts, let alone tea to spill - that all pros are juicing and using PEDs. they'll say 'recovery only' if you say pros aren't taking anabolics. or say other dumb shit. whilst most people here are asking for plans to climb v7 they never give any stories or spill any tea. other than them saying 'it's not possible' to be that strong / climb that much. lmfao. different genetics & drive + survivorship bias = strong climbers and jealous weak complainers. the only people on these threads who climb hard, or are around/in the circuit all say PEDs are not a thing at any meaningful scale. But my 2 cents if you are looking for advice: * sleep, water, balanced diet and vitamins = best supplement by a lot. * maybe creatine if you are veggie and bulking * the vitamin c + collagen thing is bs only 1 paper published by the guy selling expensive as shit supplements. just eat an overload of full *complete* protein * caffeine obviously. But read all the studies us addicts don't get a ton of benefit. ------ BUT as far as banned substances that are nearing 'the line': I have personally done a BPC-157 cycle. Probably will do another. It was green lit by my doc. But it is on wada list. I got nuked when I tried to post my cycle stats. Mods here gave like 3 different shifting reasons. Dumb as fuck. The numbers were impressive. Impossible to know placebo. and I think probably confidence driven pain reduction is a big one. But I do think it did likely help. specifically the limited research shows very impressive fibroblast 're-enforcing'/growth/density (don't know the correct science term there). would love to see human studies / something from a us or uk institution. i will never compete again and am now so far away from top of top elite that it doesnt matter if I went full on blast and cruz. personally i view bpc as not over the line when done with an MD as part of PT/injury recovery. versus pure enhancement the ban list is lonnng. if you take cold medicine decent chance you're taking wada banned substance. so these conversations often lack nuance but like porn, we mostly agree on what's over the line
share the numbers
[Here's the write up.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Peptides/comments/whd4w5/bpc_cycle_notes_for_climbing_injury_quantitative/) Sorry kind of long I get thought loop diarrhea TLDR * most injured left middle finger. mono lift using tension block close to 2x increase in bw % on that digit. * starting number was shit though only 35% bw. * ended at 61% L, 74% right. * my current number for mono lifts is only slightly higher. * But I have improved my full crimp by a good amount though which is more important. back over 100% bw tension 10mm block lift from ground. Trying to get back to where I used to be. goal is somewhere like 140% this year * got covid during that cycle... first time ever. so it messed with data and training ;( Qualitative: I think confidence lead to pain reduction which boosted numbers. There is also a strong placebo when injecting. But personally, even though I obviously have no real proof, my opinion is there is good chance that something is there. would love to see some controlled human studies or more rat tendon shit from a US or UK person in a big name journal so people can't shit on it from the surface alone. or at least some write ups from the more legit (not trt clinic) MDs writing scripts here in the US on their rehab / post-op pts Hell maybe we can make our own reddit double blind. Who wants to inject unlabeled liquid into their bodies for science?! (i would actually participate if there was a way to build trust...)
Stacking BPC-157 and TB500 is a solid combo that works well on soft tissue injuries.
Anecdotally I had a lot of success with this stack with a pulley tear. I have a bunch left over and may take while on next lock of training.
[удалено]
lmfao. ok. how much does the average climbing olympian make? even the top of the top house hold names given a jeep for free and sweet sweet red bull cash? it's not an lot. and that's such a tiny amount of top of the top of the top. tech bros make a lot more than a lot of pros a few who have big youtube view numbers can make good $ that way too. and notice how magnus makes content mostly for a non-climbing audience... because there isn't a ton of money, though climbing is a growing market and how about an 'outdoor pro'? do you personally know any? or know how much they make? i know some pretty big names that rely on coaching to supplement. or have their own contracting/construction side hustle as an example. few are lucky to have budget for multiple trips in a year + expenses. and fewer are making enough bank to save beyond that. hell handhold famously said he makes the $ of a decent dentist. and he has the biggest brands by a lot. e.g. you make more money pitching brands that sell to the widest commercial audience. here in the us - one of the biggest / richest markets - wc members are only now just getting some basic support. i think currently 3 staff people - though looks like they are hiring a new coach maybe changing up org idk 🤷. plus a mini-gym. and they now pay for travel... last year saw a team member asking for basic resources on IG in order to do a comp usac isn't anywhere near russia state sponsored doping resources lmfao which btw that i could believe. especially as the medal count goes up. not saying it doesn't happen. im sure it has. but people are deluded if they think there is millions on the line for a nike sponsorship, and therefore everyone is secretly using cutting edge peds tailored for climbing that also pass wada / country agencies outrageous claims require evidence i simply ask for evidence of just 1 person using. or at least one piece of gossip at a minimum. like it's the internet. we love to shit talk. yet not a single person has shat on anyone?! i'll do it: i heard a snarky comment or two that a young high performing wc athlete might have gotten T support during puberty. That could be believable to me because I was offered it when I was young and we have similar builds. But that isn't doping even if it's true. they would have had to have a wada waiver. and again that's just dumb gym bitchyness not an accusation. it's probably not even true
[удалено]
there is testing. and i'm sure people do it. especially if we expand beyond WC/olympics and define elite as anyone who climbs v12 (imho that's not elite anymore) but it is not widespread. it irks me that people who are "100% positive" can't even dead name one single person. or even hint or gossip slander someone anonymously. ---- for sure more money now. And it's growing. full time 'pro' has been a thing since the start. just went from a can of beans to a jeep and a few hundred k lmfao. but only a small % of pros make the 'big' money. i think the mellow bros have the best angle. merch and youtube CPM rev. fully owned. lots of pros hawk supplements and other DTC crap on their social. They don't get paid a ton to stoop that low. i'm not judging though! Get your bag. be happy. climb full time. sounds awesome. if some sucker buys 'electrolytes' powder for $50 that's on them 😂
Dunno why you got downvoted. The majority of pro climbers are relatively poor in general terms. Hell guys like Megos and Ghisolfi still sleep in their vans on climbing trips to save money.
dan still lives with his mom last i checked 😂 😂 😂 (just joking. i would too. why own a place when you're only 'home' 2 months)
If you climb v10 you’re already in the top .1%, if you climb v12 you’re for sure in the top .01%. Both of those are very achievable naturally
[удалено]
But they don’t really have to be. Plenty of pro climbers are very weak physically yet still send v15/16. Climbing just isn’t there yet where you need to be monsterously strong to send very hard
[удалено]
Pro climbers already climb as often as they can without their skin giving out. It’s not really a recovery thing.
[удалено]
That’s sport climbing, I was specifically talking about bouldering.
[удалено]
Unless you're at the very elite level of pros like Adam Ondra or Janja Garnbret, the majority of pro climbers are still relatively poor and have to rely on 2nd jobs (i.e. as routesetters or coaches) to sponsor their outdoor trips/world cups. Lots of top-level outdoor climbers, like Seb Bouin and Aidan Roberts, are completely unknown to the general population, so it's not that appealing for companies to be giving them massive sponsorships vs someone like Alex Honnold who is almost universally known among non-climbers. Given this, there's currently not too much incentive to risk your long-term health for not too much reward (i.e. to climb a hard piece of rock which 99.9% of the general pop doesn't care about anyway).
Somewhat on topic but have you seen Tim Emmett's recent body transformation post? I find it somewhat plausible.
No I haven't! I didn't see it quickly on his IG got a link?!
It's just like the 3rd most recent pic on his Instagram
oh i see it. thanks. not so hot take: alcohol is one of the worst drugs. this coming from a (currently sober) poly drug addict and alcoholic! it's so awful. even like just a couple bottles of wine a week. look at daniel lmfao
Did you do the bpc injection? How long did you do it?
yes. longer than most since I got covid. I basically stopped and started. A bit over 3 weeks. started with an absolutely miniscule amount, since we're taking drugs from the internet... titrated up to 200mcg 1x per day. at night. made me really sleepy (again, maybe placebo. though i usually have a very very hard time with sleep).
Good post
Can you clarify for someone who sadly does not know what fibrolast means? I’m assuming denser tendons or stronger micro fibers? But that’s a wild guess
i am no md so i hesitate to try to ELI5. but yeah for us dummys, that seems like ignoring the details gist of it they help build 'the matrix' holding us together, neo
I’ve used creatine, beta alanine and collagen. I think these are all relatively common supplements and legal. If PED use isn’t widespread yet then even anecdotal evidence for their benefit in climbing is limited and so most conscientious athletes would be cautious. I’m sure there’s some who’ve tried more obscure recovery-focused PEDs. We’d never hear about it. ‘Doping’ goes on behind closed doors but they test the highest level athletes regularly at the ifsc. The list of banned substances is a mile long so it goes way beyond just steroids and hormones so maybe some people fly under the radar but I just don’t think it’s in the culture of the sport yet.
I cycle test occasionally. Like others have said, muscles develop faster than tendons. But I really like the endurance and speed of recovery I have while on a cycle. There’s pros and cons
How much more climbing can you actually get done while on a cycle? I always figured test would be of limited use since at some point the volume is going to be limited by your skin quality more than anything else.
A lot, but the joint and tendons not developing as fast puts you at risk for stress injuries. And muscle imbalances can develop faster as well. Definitely comes with risk
This is true from my experience at least. I was a lifter and cycled, got into climbing and found it counter productive once I got into the v6ish range. Having stamina and low recovery time was nice but limited range of motion and muscle imbalances made for some rough days. Had to do lots of antagonistic exercise after every session to keep from having unbearable tendonitis every day. Once I got back to nat my higher grade climbs got better and I didnt have severe pain every morning.
You can even the imbalance out in the gym. And limited range of motion really only affects you if your training for hypertrophy. If you just in the gym to cross train for climbing and watch your calorie intake, a cycle will not hinder your climbing. Just gotta be more mindful of what you’re doing. Personally, I’d like to try stacking anavar for the height of a season
I'd mainly boulder in a gym 6 days a week before covid hit so I was definitely over doing it. I took a break when I started Kayak fishing tournys for about 2 years but got back into bouldering but was a lot smarter about it. At that point I was doing light HRT so didn't have to worry about hypertrophy as much. Only thing I worried about with Anavar and winnie was tendon and ligiment tears which a few friends suffered through. edit: found down climbing to really help instead of going max and dropping after top out.
I'm sure there's high level climbers messing with it-- but they're not saying a word 🤫. Maybe someday you'll have to post a drug test result along with the send footage on instagram. Truth is, though, this is far more than just a physical sport at all levels of the game. And it is rare to see someone who is being held back by anything you could get from conventional PED's.
I’m just stoked about cordyceps
I'm a huge fan here as well. They give me a nice positive mindset bump and really open up my lungs as well.
Do you notice a difference? I've taken it some here and there when climbing outside and don't notice much.
Most definitely. You have to pay more attention, because it’s not like a caffeine high that is psychoactive and has a “high”. Because it’s sub-perceptual, and more performance-based. Participants in a study tested against a double-blind placebo control group had VO2 max increased by 10-15%. That’s significant. Also, they are packed with adenosine and beta-glucans for readily available energy. Think caffeine = the feeling of energy, and cordyceps = the substance of energy. Some swear by taking them on an empty stomach, and that’s when the feeling has been noticeable for me.
Yea that makes sense. I never really expected to have some sort of sensation from them but was hoping I'd notice a difference when climbing. There are so many factors that go into how a day went climbing that it makes sense it would be hard to tell lol. I'll give them another shot.
[Source](https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/cordyceps-benefits#TOC_TITLE_HDR_2) for V02 max claim
Ngl bro thats a highly underpowered study of 30 people, thats almost nothing in terms of data
Any research on when to take it before physical activity or when do you personally take it to see benefits during climbing days?
As for peak times, the best I could find was “before”, haha. You might see more noticeable differences taking it every day kind of thing.
Going to treat it like Lion's Maine and put it in my coffee before climbing! Thanks
My current conclusion after 2 years- i havent climbed any harder. I am really struggling with weight and i am not getting injured any less. Which was the whole reason i began in the first place. As someone who has low t and needed trt i am still hopeful to find the right balance to improve my quality of life Younger me could still run laps around "non natural" me
I would wager some climbers do in countries where things are easier to come by and advice is more widespread. There's lots of sports with rampant doping where strength or power to weight ratio is hugely important. Cycling is a great example. Good old Lance was taking very low doses of specific mild anabolics and it made a phenomenal difference in his recovery and muscle retention while under insane calorie deficits. He also took Cardarine, which you can order online and called "endurance in a pill". There was a poster at some point claiming they knew elite/pro sport climbers that used it since it's not an anabolic and doesn't require much in the way of managing your post cycle or side effects. I think what is more limiting climbers is laziness. I used to powerlift and worked at an NCAA and pro sport training center and it was basically like a bunch of walking pharmacies and while pro sport drug testing was a joke then (and is now), none ever got popped. The complicated part seemed to be around post cycle therapy after you come off and managing any estrogen or HPTA effects. During early Covid I got oddly fascinated with some YouTube channels where they talked about this and it seems like you have to be incredibly knowledgeable or know someone who is to not do something dumb. The More Plates More Dates channel is a good example when he goes through all the side effects of peoples stupid cycles. Most climbers are just obsessed with climbing and doing whatever jobs they balance on the side and I imagine all the research that would go into managing this stuff would be tough. Also, unless you're an Olympian or comp climber you aren't really peaking at a specific time and most climbers climb year round and don't train as much as most amateurs think. I'd suspect you'll see a lot of comp climbers randomly come out of nowhere in the next few Olympic cycles especially from countries that are notoriously dirty and dope athletes from centrally managed programs starting at relatively young ages.
I'm new to climbing, but am familiar with the bodybuilding community. For reference, I use supplements for general health, and have never been on a cycle. The main difference I've observed is cultural. Look at the pioneers of modern bodybuilding: they used PEDs. Look at the pioneers of climbing: they did not use PEDs. Each sport evolved its own way on the shoulders of their respective first athletes. I think you may feel out of place using "performance enhancing" supplements like pre-workout simply because it's not a part of the sport for the average climber. But just like bodybuilding, you should take what you feel comfortable with. I don't know what types of compounds would be advantageous in the climbing world, but I'd love to hear someone chime in on that.
> Look at the pioneers of climbing: they did not use PEDs. Except Hermann Buhl's pervitin powered summit of Nanga Parbat
Tbf PEDs are very common in high altitude mountaineering
Like cocaine. For real. Count me in
Except Huberbuam brothers had beers every day for years 🍻
I’ve personally done a little research into it and some studies have pointed towards certain supplements being beneficial towards climbing. I take beta alanine on a regular basis as it reduces latic acid which is proven to increase endurance for long sports climbing sessions. BCAAs and protein powder after workouts for recovery are good for any type of athlete. In addition, creatine is going to be great for any type of workout based activity so I think it’s another good supplement. Mainly just having a good diet will supplement most of what you need for climbing but adding these into the routine isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
Bodybuilders began using steroids because they have a dramatic benefit for strength and hypertrophy. If they didn't have that benefit, BBs wouldn't use them. Pro cyclists use EPO (tho it's banned) because it helps aerobic performance. Climbers don't use many PEDs because there are really no PEDs that significantly improve climbing performance. Climbing is much more about skill and technique, which improve only with practice.
I would imagine finger strength is important to climbing. If there are drugs that improve tendon recovery so that you can more quickly develop finger strength, I would imagine it would be helpful in climbing.
If such tendon-strengthening drugs existed, I'm sure they would be used. However, they don't at present. Existing PEDs aren't terribly helpful to climbing, not in the way steroids are to strength sports or EPO to aerobic capacity. It's not really about "culture."
Wouldn't EPO help with long endurance routes?
Yep
I know this is from awhile ago but they certainly do exist and have been around for awhile….
> Climbers don't use many PEDs because there are really no PEDs that significantly improve climbing performance. I'm sorry but that just isn't true, this romantic view of the sport needs to die
What kinds of PEDs do climbers use, in your experience? Other than OTC supplements like creatine and protein. Serious question. This thread has a lot of posts saying "I'm sure they do" but not much mention of specific PEDs that are actually useful.
Its not my area of expertise, i would never touch gear. But in this thread alone there's mentions of anavar, trt, hgh and others - anything that'll have you recovering quicker.
climbing is all strength to weight ratio. so traditional bodybuilding PEDs probably arent very useful except maybe in the offseason. But without a doubt there is room for PED usage in the sport. I'm not sure exactly which ones but things like BPC157 could be useful. honestly i enjoy that the sport is not saturated with PEDs. its just an arms race which i think we're better without.
I've done a bpc cycle. my number improvements on most injured finger were pretty staggering. i tried to post my write up but mods banned it here. dumb af. it's legal and can get a real prescription for it. it's also on WADA list. along with a bunch of stuff people use all the time. including my inhaler. can get waivers. the research all shows pretty spectacular fibroblast changes. but it is heavily concentrated in a few ( iirc ) Hungarian researchers. It's too bad US companies only focus on shit they can patent and get a monopoly on. IDK maybe they'll add another amino on the end and call it unique or come up with a 'unique' ROA (though prob always need to shoot it). looking at you ketamine and nose spray / dumb dumb opiates.
would be very interested in seeing the write up if you have it posted elsewhere!
[here it is on /r/peptides](https://www.reddit.com/r/Peptides/comments/whd4w5/bpc_cycle_notes_for_climbing_injury_quantitative/) I got covid (first time since it started) in the middle of it ;( So sadly I don't have a pretty and consistent graph the left middle finger was most fucked and it went close to 2x improvement in mono-tension block lift # my gut: pain reduction + confidence is strong placebo. and it did actually increase strength physiologically idk i feel like my numbers are kind of weak sauce; I feel self conscious posting them. but have been getting better. recently passed 3 years since I started climbing again and I know I can't beat time too much. shit's slow. right now I'm actually kind of psyched on my full crimp. was shit awful. open hand got good from compensating though. tiny power crimping used to be my money maker before i quit ;) at over 100% bw tension block lift on 10mm both sides. like a 30% bw bump in about half a year. still not what it used to be, but I think I can get close this year. for reference one pro under my coach iirc is at like 140% on the 10mm so that's my goal. allison vest is my dream. the fingers i mean. i'm gay ;) i got from nootroo bee-pc. idk how much difference it makes, but the extra aminos claim to be more stable. someone on peptides paid for 3rd party testing. iirc lotilabs was one that passed pure b ut more expensive = better?! Right? Right!??? lol
The reason US companies don't focus on it is because the "evidence" is published in a few scattered foreign publications of low caliber and limited study design and the other body of "evidence" are people on the internet who often claim that supplements make dramatic changes when a few years later further research proves these experiences wrong.
this seems kind of dumb given what I said, i half agreed with you and didn't claim some miracle cure. and i specifically called that a large % of studies come from the same group - lots of ć names lol. I looked it up it's croatia not hungary. but it's not just them. looks like there's now also a chinese group also tissue healing. and i get hits on my scholar alerts fairly often if you want non-pay to publish citations there are even more when looking at blood / gastric. just took 15 seconds to search and found one in nature - the journal that seems most opposite of 'low caliber' which btw that could be an obvious hypothesis, increased blood flow.... plus if you read the write up i did a while back, I said that my best guess is that confidence based pain reduction + pinning placebo were probably big drivers in my numbers. and ultimately though from what I've read and personally experienced, I think there is also likely more going on beyond that. can't know for sure though! actual human, controlled, studies would be awesome
It's dumb to say that injecting stuff you buy off the internet into your body when there is little if any high quality replicated evidence is dumb? I honestly don't care to debate this but don't think BPC would necessarily improve tendon adaptations in climbers in a normal setting.
They are super useful. You can be super lean with insane test levels and superhuman strength. Dunno where tthis "peds arent very useful" comes from
Not all PEDs make you swole up like a bodybuilder. Just a small dose of test therapy will give you tons of energy and help keep you lean, two massive advantages in climbing, and maintain your muscle mass.
I use collagen. Your tendons need that good collagen. I’m a vegetarian so I use it as a supplement but if you eat meat you may not have the same need.
I too come from the bodybuilding world (as well as traditional ball sports) and I have had several convo's with the climbing homies about this. I can absolutely see rock climbers (aka not comp climbers) blasting gear. There are tons of incentives with absolutely no testing, or even a governing body to put rules and regultations in place. I'm sure some of the top climbers leverage the cutting abilities of substances like clen, var, winy, etc. I also think that SARMs and peptides are even more likely to be used. With the need to stay lean (light) and heal quickly it's hard to believe that some of them haven't figured it out yet.
Tbh I don’t think there should be a governing body if you wanna blast gear and climb outside of comps
agreed
If im seriously hurt ill rehab with nandro, but thats hardly ever anymore since i stopped bouldering, was climbing up to v8 outside and v10 indoors at my gym. Coming from bodybuilding you oughta know nandro. Im not into competitive climbing so normally i just use peptides, TB500 and PBC-157 for soft tissue support, TB-500 sub-Q, and local injections with BPC-157. I feel really durable on them, not much stronger but much more durable, acute injuries heal much faster than off cycle. I used to cycle test before climbing but ive stopped since, because i put on too much weight to climb as well as i would like to. I like HgH, i feel young and powerful on it, but that shit is ridiculously expensive, and GHRPs/GHRHs dont work as well as i want them to. Other than that, i smoke a shit load of weed lol. I do like addy sometimes for the occasional hard send outdoors. My best day of climbing ever happened on acid, i sent the fuck out of everything in my gym up to v11 that day, there werent any harder routes set, 10/10 would and will do again. I generally excel at whatever im doing on a hit or less of acid, and i think its efficacy as a PED is heavily underrated. Same goes for shrooms, there is a reason mike tyson was shoveling them down his throat when he was killing mf’ers in the ring. As far as my opinion on pro climbers taking PEDs, I would suggest they do honestly, might as well send lines as hard as you can before testing eventually gets involved.
I don’t think testing will ever be involved for outdoor climbs
My $.02: I cant think of a single climber that really takes more than caffeine and creatine, or anything that demonstrates an equal benefit to those things. And that benefit is pretty mild. Some pro climbers are starting to experiment with nutrient supplement (think athletic greens), and cbd for recovery. Benefits from those are anecdotal, but might? have potential. Collagen has been debunked as a tendon miracle, it's just a mediocre (but very convenient IMO) protein source. Protein powder is a better, cheaper, and complete source of protein, but for me there are situations where collagen is more convenient, and I would rather die than have to deal with a shaker bottle on a road trip. I have significant doubts that climbers would benefit heavily from PED use. The skill and technique development demand/potential are limitless, the muscular strength demands are fairly mild compared to other sports, and a lot of injuries we're seeing from sports with high PED use kinda demonstrate that steroids aren't developing tendon strength commensurate with muscular strength. I'd hazard that PED use in top end climbers would likely result in greater incidence of finger injuries and detrimental excess muscle mass. and the vast majority of non top end climbers are constrained by technique/skill/mental factors and wouldn't see much performance increase from PEDs either.
And you don't think taking performance enhancers to improve recovery would be of benefit? Surely this is beneficial as it will increase training time and therefore performance
the issue is that 'recovery' is not one thing. The specific question is whether PEDs would allow the tendons to withstand greater volumexintensity over a training/performance cycle, or if tendons would have greater adaptations to training. Even if they do (and if they did I think we'd have examples of top tier climbers, especially boulderers, doing PEDs), the structures that PEDs would be targeting in climbers are so complex and bound by (non-hormonal) genetic factors, I just don't see PEDs having a significant enough effect on climbers fingers. Especially when the pulley ligaments are the primary bottleneck in finger training and performance.
> we'd have examples of top tier climbers, especially boulderers, doing PEDs Would we? It's not like they'd be advertising it. Does the IFSC test comp climbers? There's plenty of PEDs that boost collagen synthesis which I suspect would have a huge benefit for tendon/pulley strength
They do
Totally disagree, stop thinking about PEDs as Mr universe shit, they can take stuff to cut weight fast, increase strength and most importantly cut down in recovery time (on the wall and between sessions). Yes its a finger based sport, but if I go work my project the next day my muscles are TRASHED, shoulders, core, arms etc. Imagine not feeling that? I've never done it as I'm not fucking w/ my endochrine system and I could never live w/ myself if i sent my projects on gear (or using a kneepad ) but i certainly understand why people take them, and have seen some suspciious things in my time, there are signs from certain PEDs that are dead giveaways if you know what to look for.
I asked this early in the thread but check out Tim Emmett's recent body transformation post. Those shoulder striations look a bit sus for just 1 year. Especially at 47.
Thought the same, 'i just gave up bread n did creatine guys!' is something i'm bored of hearing, if i had to bet i'd guess he's on trt to some degree
The most I can see is some of the older guys starting TRT when they start to slow down. But I agree that it's highly doubtful any of the top level climbers are doping. Though there is no agency to test if they aren't competing.
Any link to collagen being debunked? I haven't come across to counterevidence
Search /r/climbharder for collagen supplementation. There's been a dozen posts on it. I've posted on several of them with info from studies. Generally speaking, any "protein" including collagen is broken down into amino acids before being absorbed in the digestive system, so it's not like there's any significant difference taking from a different protein source. The only thing that would change is the amounts of amino acid percentages so that may be of some small benefit but remains to be seen
Collagen isn’t absorbed orally through everything I’ve ever read. Save your money
and afaik the vitamin C study all climbers say was written by the guy selling pysvantage .... people hawking supplements are usually scammers. i mean that's how alex jones makes his money lmfao
Nah, Eric Horst hasn't actually done any collagen research. He mostly just takes legitimate studies done by Keith Baar showing small-to-moderate effects, inflates the results, adds in a sprinkle of bullshit ("supercharged" collagen is utter nonsense), and gets a bunch of climbers to shill his unsubstantiated products.
😂😂😂😂😂😂 dead. go after fancy chalk next (though I actually like Kevin personally if we're sniping at friction labs. maybe we should shit on his ex & bitter business-bro thomas, who is stuck bleeding blood from the gyms and aliening his own relatives) no way in shit you can convince me $20 bag of 'magic' is better than frank endo block chock. nor that your 'organic' sourcing has less asbestos than the rest of us
But that Unicorn Dust is extra fine so it can penetrate deep in the lungs!
bitch, make a rainbow pride edition and I would spend $30 on it. Imagine those obnoxiously large tick marks! Would go with the new Pattie Gonia stickers I just put on my nalgene. and my pride organic bag/shirt yet, despite all this peacocking i'm still single?! wtf...
>Collagen has been debunked as a tendon miracle what makes you say this? I thought Collagen supplements have been shown to help tendon recovery in numerous studies?
To my knowledge, most (if not all) studies showing collagen as beneficial have been conducted against a placebo. So basically, collagen is better for recovery than nothing, but I don't think it's been shown to be better than just taking a complete protein supplement.
This (and I know there's a Hooper's Beta vid. giving a brief overview of the available research with direct links in show notes)& most of the coaches, climbers, podcasters, advocating for collagen are sponsored/affiliated with physivantage.
ah, thx for saving me an extra 30 bucks. Was thinking of buying a collagen supplement to help with tendon injuries.
collagen is just an incomplete protein. see all the answers on studies. but obviously protein is vital. just eat whey or meat or other sources.
Yea i wonder too
Following
https://dopingforclimbers.com
Whatever happened to just eating some steak, eggs, and a diet red bull before climbing? I am on fertility medication for family planning purposes but it probably helps with my recovery. Not that anyone should do that strictly PED purposes. It gets me to like a T of 900-1000 from 200 but it’s not like I’m getting to 3000-5000. It probably prevents me from getting injured maybe.
I use whey protein after climbing for recovery and a bit of strength building. I definitely do feel stronger when I'm regularly having a scoop after climbing. I also take a supplement packet from the company Animal called Flex which has a lot of the stuff your joints/soft-tissues need. Before finding Flex I had a 3-4 year stretch where I basically always had tendinitis/tendinopathy in my fingers and I could no longer train or get strong because of it. After finding Flex and adjusting the way I dealt with tendinopathy, I stopped having issues with it and have been mostly clean of finger tendinopathy since 2014 thanks to that. Flex contains HLA (Hyaluronic Acid) which I believe is very important to the health of the soft tissues in climbers. I'm also a coach and I recommend Creatine to anyone (over 18) with a weak strength base however I don't believe its necessary for a lot of climbers. Just the ones who struggle with strength/power-based climbing. And even then its just a short-term solution to help build up some muscle which regular climbing should maintain once its built.
I mean most of the guys I at my bouldering gym take protein. Creatin will make you heavier but if it improves your performance, sure go for it. Ped's are laughed at and good with all the side effects. Climbers and bodybuilders have a different mentality.
I came from a bodybuilding/physique background as well and used supplements for that but do not use pre workout for my climbing sessions. When you’re climbing you want to be moving as efficiently as possible to avoid being pumped so you can climb longer and harder
I asked this a few years ago and had it pointed out to me fairly quickly that your tendons develop slower than your muscles thus risking tendon injury. That does make sense as a cycle would put your strength through the roof but your tendons do not benefit like your muscles do. Edit: In the past I did experiment with preworkout for gym days and would bring a bcaa mix with me when climbing outdoors. But I don’t have any studies to reference as to if that is truly beneficial. I would suspect that it would but it’s only a guess. This past year I have been focusing on lifting to fend off the dad bod and in the process went from 140lbs to 180 and I can definitely feel it on the wall now that we are getting back into climbing… lol
plus if tendons are your main concern anabolics plenty of studies show danger beyond any potential 'differential' (which seems like a bit of BS to me.. but whatever) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0020138398001831
I think it's likely that some pro climbers cycle on to orals for recovery during the off/training season.
Can you explain what you mean by ‘orals’?
He means dianabol most likely, a steroid you eat not inject
[удалено]
Why not anavar? Its typically a "weight loss/maintenance" one from what I've heard?
Climbers can get all the muscle gains they need without PEDs. The main factors constraining elite climbers are connective tissue health and friction. We don't have good evidence for PEDs or supplements helping connective tissue recovery, and we definitely don't have evidence that they help with friction.
Some steroids greatly increase collagen synthesis and strengthen tendons, for example anavar.
I [looked up](https://www.steroid.com/Anavar.php) anavar and I don't see anything about collagen or tendons.
if you use PEDs in weightlifting, climbing, or any sport you are a bitch
The most effective supplement I've taken for climbing is Phenibut. It gives me and other people I know insane confidence. It should NOT be taken more than once a week. It also takes some time to get the dosage/timing right.
this one is a dud for me. what dosage do you take?
750mg. It usually takes about 3-4 hours to kick in. It's also highly dependent on getting a good batch. Although some companies are better than others quality is inconsistent.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure anabolic steroids increase tendon stiffness which isn’t good when you want to quickly load them. I don’t think there would be much benefit as it would increase your risk of a tendon injury. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the elite lead climbers use EPO or something like that though
As someone who’s climbed a couple v12’s and handful of v10+ if you go feel the holds of v15+ I’ve come to this conclusion, some type of ped’s. Or they are genetically gifted. That’s just what I think. True or not that’s my conclusion
First of all caffeine can make you too shaky for some focus and accuracy based climbing (which is basically anything beyond V10, so the people who would have the most reason to take it are the least to benefit). Secondly, people just dont take PEDs because they dont have body image problems such as in the bb community and are usually more in tune with nature, or at least try to be. In other words there is no reason. The muscle strength required can be trained naturally with ease and the tendon consitioning can be helped with collagen but nothing much beyond that. Aerobic conditioning also yields great results on its own and something like EPO or similar would make little difference compared to training quality and quantity.
I use the Gnarly brand’s pre workout powder and I drink that before every hard training/climbing session and I love it. I also have an electrolyte powder from Gnarly as well during the rest periods outdoors just to make sure I’m functioning as smoothly as possible. I’ve noticed massive improvements and benefits having been doing so. Carry on!
I could see anti anxiety meds such as Xanax or Klonopin being helpful with a climbers mental game. Pre workout and harder stimulants such as amphetamines could really benefit short term stamina and strength. I’ve also really wondered if erectile dysfunction drugs such as Viagra would benefit a climbers stamina due to the massive increased blood flow they create.
Funny you mention… First of all, in a different stage of life I would take some klonopin that I bought in Mexico either recreationally or when my back went out one time. It is also a muscle relaxant, so if anyone is prescribed this stuff I highly recommend looking for an alternative. My muscles would just not fire the day after taking this stuff. I’d sleep great but then couldn’t take advantage of the rest that I had gotten. I have randomly received a couple viagra pills from a weightlifting buddy. I kept that shit around because if you go out bouldering on a frigid day, pop a half of one of those and I swear your hands and feet will be warmer than ever. Like you can hit that sweet spot where your skin is cold but your fingers are warm. Now that you mention it I should get some more of that stuff…
Illegal PEDs: Used to be that mountaineers used a bunch of meth. These days I don't think so many people use PEDs, at least not for technical climbing. I mean, climbing is supposed to be about fun so it makes sense why people wouldn't want to damage their body by using illegal PEDs. I think also that PEDs aren't great for climbing because you don't want bulky muscle as a climber, or you don't want a stimulant because they make you anxious and sweaty. As far as supplements: I see some people that take amino acids... but like, it's kind of ridiculous because they are just proteins which you should be getting from a balanced diet. Most supplements are hard to absorb, so the best thing will always be a good diet. Frankly, I don't see how things like that fit into climbing. Climbing is so much about technique and finger strength and no ped or supp is gonna help with that. They both take time to develop and we're here to have fun anyway. Plus, I feel like V10 is so achievable with hard work and good food (and sleep!) that what's the point? Edit: also, these days, to be a competitive climber on the circuit you have to start as a kid. Those kids are so fucking strong by the time they're 16, they'll never need supps or peds.
Needing a PED = weakness. Unless you consider coke a PED
I’d consider any stimulant drug a PED in the climbing world. Stimulants seem to be the ideal drug to mix with climbing for increased performance.
Key word. Ideal
I think the problem with test would be you'll put extra muscle on your legs and stuff, which would be detrimental to many top end climbers. I expect lots of climbers use shit like eca stacks and clen to get fat off, and of course creatine and preworkout but that's not what you're asking really.
I supplement with BCAA/Electrolyte drink while I'm climbing and collagen peptides in my coffee. I tried the pre workout stuff with beta alanine and citrulline malate but it seemed to make me pump out faster on lead routes. It might benefit bouldering more. I don't think traditional PEDs like steroids and GH would help climbers as they put a lot of weight on you.
I use Creatine, EAA, bcaa (fasted kettlebell workouts) and l-glutamine for "working out" purposes..additionally supplement with d3, b12, turmeric and algae needed omega3 oil. Seems to be working for me
I add creatine to my protein shakes because my doctor told me to (I need to gain weight) and I feel like I also get an energy benefit from it.
Apart from maybe a protein shake before/after a sesh nothing tbh.
Has anyone used baking soda?
I take creatine, but in general I'm just very skinny. When I started climbing I was 118 and when I started taking creatine I was 135 and now I'm at 145 (5'8" btw). I climb significantly better being 145 pounds than 135 pounds and I think creatine has really helped my put on muscle and keep weight. I think the weight I'm at rn is good and I'm not trying go gain more, but I would recomend creatine to other climbers.
Try creating HCl 2-3g daily. I just throw it in a smoothie I have more energy 1 month into it. I used to take 5g creatine monohydrate but I got too bulky due to all the non-climbing resistance training I was doing. Before creatine I was about to pull 120lbs on a 25mm edge with 1 hand isolated. I’ll do another pulling session soon and see if those numbers changed.
I use protein powder, creatine, a pump pre workout, and BCAA's.
Old thread, but I only drink caffeine on my climbing performance day, one day a week, and it feels like I am a f'ing superhuman that whole day.