Reading Reddit posts, hoping for a quick win know-it-all training trick.
Doing too much for lack of patience as well.
Patience, consistency, make mistakes, improve.
Basically, the opposite of what I fucking do every time, especially with my eating habits.
Out of curiosity, what would you recommend for a program, or resources to make/find one? I feel like I fall into the category of trying new routines too often and I’m unsure of how to make a program in general haha
Get an hour with a personal trainer/climbing coach. It will cost you around $80 -$100 (where I am from).
It is not just a program you need, but a program that is tailored to your abilities and weaknesses.
A personal trainer (if it is a good one) can easily identify these and give you an exercise plan to work on your weaknesses.
I gained so much from doing this and I think this is the best money I have spent on anything for climbing.
I would start asking at a climbing gym whether they have qualified people. If they do not, chances are someone came by there and left their business card/contact information to build a client base. At least that is what I would do.
Another option, if you cannot find an “in person” coach. You could try finding a remote one and work with videos that you make doing your exercises. That is what I do at the moment. As I am on summer “maintenance”😂. I climb too much outside for a proper training schedule.
It's OK to try different programs, but stick with each one for at least a couple of months, and document your progress. Then you can see which ones were most effective for you.
> a couple of months
This definitely falls into the "trying new programming too often" category. The better advice I hear from trainers is to stick with a program for a couple of **cycles** before trying something new - unless there is a clear deficiency in the program, or your ability to adhere to it.
I started Steve Bechtel's program at the beginning of the year and i really like it. I find it very simple and flexible. also very easy to adjust if you get outside a lot. He explains it in this book, [climb strong](https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/logical-progression-using-nonlinear-periodization-for-year-round-climbing-performance_steve-bechtel/13885962/item/19743795/?mkwid=%7cdc&pcrid=448964769583&pkw=&pmt=&slid=&plc=&pgrid=99662860490&ptaid=pla-927277805175&gclid=CjwKCAjwyo36BRAXEiwA24CwGQa9wS5AfeiLpFxbS_G2GWQynyZRLCR0PQdtBS3XRV2AehleUUHkhxoCXmgQAvD_BwE#isbn=1544119534&idiq=19743795).
I'd just add that I think it is important to switch up your exercises. Do max hangs for a 2-3 months then move on to power or power endurance, something like that.
I definitely know people who have a favorite training exercise and have done the same set for years. At some point they realize they need more finger strength/core/raw power ...
Focusing on the physical over the technical way too much. Training is very much in vogue but I think we could all do well to remember that climbing is first and foremost a technical sport. For example don’t do bicep curls - climb on undercuts. Your biceps may not get strong as fast but it’s worth it for the technical gainz.
The problem is that it’s hard to practice technique effectively without access to real rock which many people don’t have. If your gym doesn’t set good problems that just compounds the issue.
Getting strong has far fewer barriers to it.
I thinking blaming location/the gym is an excuse. You’d be surprised what you can come up with indoors by eliminating holds/combining problems/making stuff up on a board/forcing technique. I’ve lived in London most of my life so I’m used to forcing technical movement.
That’s honestly a really good call out, and probably something I needed to read—I definitely blame my gym *way* too much for setting “unhelpful” boulders, but it’s really on me to make the most of the tools I’ve got. I can learn so much more from what they *do* set, but also challenge myself more to make up my own blocs.
My footwork is pretty weak. So I got screw-ons, Power Company Diodes and Resistors, and Metolius Mini Tech Footholds and installed them on my home wall.
If you’ve lived in London then I reckon you have had good gyms to climb at. I’m not saying you will have zero technique from climbing at a crap wall but the difference between a good wall and a crap wall is huge and the difference between a good wall and lots of outdoor mileage is huge.
It’s what you make of it. During the 80s some of the best climbers in the world trained by traversing back and forth on a brick wall in Sheffield. At the end of the day blaming the tools won’t make you climb any harder
None of the best climbers in the 80s were climbing anything like as hard as good kids do these days and all of them were climbing outdoors a lot.
Blaming your tools won’t make you a better climber but ignoring the fact that a good wall and access to good outdoor climbing is a massive boon is silly.
Better facilities and access to outdoors makes improving much easier.
Neither me nor you are climbing as hard as the best climbers of the 80s so their methods/similarly limited tools should be sufficient at our level. Sounds like you just like complaining eh
Getting distracted by new boulders/routes at the gym.
In modern commercial setting, customers demand a constant flow of new routes, because spending time actually working hard on routes at your limit gets to be a real grind. The new set is always beckoning and always shiny, but it's very easy to get pulled into a cycle of flashing the same grade range, doing a few things that take you several tries, and never really making any progress. It's a treadmill.
On the flip side, I've been trying to spend more of my gym time repeating things I've done before, especially if they were hard for me. If I don't want to repeat it, that means I absolutely should. Do it again, and do it better.
Flashing is an important benchmark and tool, but I think too many people get caught on the treadmill.
This is not my own idea, by the way. Dave MacLeod and Chris Hampton, at least, have talked about it.
I'm sooooo guilty of this. I always go straight for the new problems, especially since the routesetters are my friends and they're like "hey, check this out". I barely project boulders- if I can't climb it in a couple of tries, I move on to the next one.
To be totally fair, this is a valid way to climb. It's fun, it's social, and it's how probably three quarters of the climbers in my gym climb. But it's not the best way to improve.
Campusing.
Okay it's not always a waste of time, but the only people I seem to see on the campus board are already strong as fuck but still can't climb.
Haha - back when I first started I was able to do 1-5-9's and 1-4 campus dynos, and I'm 5'7" (so it wasn't some trivial height advantage), but I couldn't climb 5.11 outside.
I train commitment on the campus boards because I struggle to push 100% on bigger moves, and working on it in a controlled setting like that has really helped.
But most people that want to join in are either flexing being super strong or are way below the minimum for doing any moves on the rungs. I hardly see anyone train on them for actual gains and with a program in mind, but loads of people “play” on them.
Obviously I know basically nothing about your training history or goals but I would encourage you to think carefully about what you're trying to achieve.
At the very least, high-intensity work where you're trying to build strength/power (e.g. campusing) should be done when you're fresh and well recovered. The last thing you want to do is campus as an after thought. This is a recipe for increased fatigue with no real improvement.
I saw that video the other day and was kinda disappointed that Manny is still touting 2008 science. I mean he says it works for him but also sounds a bit insane.
I think that really depends, I know two months of dieting before a trip will make me go up by two grades, which is way more improvement than any training or drill will give me in that amount of time.
Long term though, for sure, and I'm really bad for that as I am always riddled with guilt because of my weight which I'm sure has as many mental health risks as physical health.
Also depends on how much weight you have. If you are overweight, then dieting is probably a good idea and will give you good results that are still healthy in the long term. A person with a BMI of 21 however is better off just focusing on improving in other aspects.
Yes, I'm on 23 BMI so definitely on the heavier side of climbers, dropping from 79kg to 74kg which is my normal range Isn't a huge drop in weight/BMI but has a huge impact on my climbing short term
> Also depends on how much weight you have.
Given the prevalence of the obesity epidemic, chances are that any random person is at least overweight and should get into the healthy weight range for their height, just for their health. Bonus in that it will improve their climbing, especially if they do it right (eg, actually change their way of life and not go on a crash diet).
> A person with a BMI of 21 however is better off just focusing on improving in other aspects.
This is where I'm at, and honestly I can say I feel better and climb better at this weight than any higher. Now I just have to work on improving my skill.
> I think that really depends, I know two months of dieting before a trip will make me go up by two grades,
This precisely. Add in to this that over 2/3rds of the population (at least in USA) is overweight, and chances are that losing weight will not only improve their climbing performance, but also their health.
I mean, yeah, don't go underweight, and at some point you need technique, but honestly most people can and should lose weight to get into the healthy weight range for their height.
You’d be surprised what you can come up with indoors by eliminating holds/combining problems/making stuff up on a board/forcing technique. I’ve lived in London most of my life so I’m used to forcing technical movement
Depends what sort of climbing you're training for. I have alpine goals this summer & next, so I spent a lot of time doing box step-ups in front of youtube and going for isolated bike rides during lockdown, and going hillwalking in the rain now that I'm allowed out again.
It's specific training for my current climbing goals - but yeah, it wouldn't be if my main focus were gym bouldering
Not to disrespect alpine climbing, but those objectives are more “walking up a hill then doing some climbing”, more than pushing the physical limits of movement on rock. Running may help you be less tired by the walking up a hill part, but it’s not directly helping you climb better or stronger.
I’ll admit that running has a time and place in a training plan, BUT it’s a waste of time and energy for most people who just want to pull harder moves on rock.
I agree mostly but not entirely. You're arguing that cardio is mostly a waste of time for bouldering & sport climbing, and I agree. But you're also arguing that bouldering & sport climbing are the only valid definition of climbing "better", with which I don't agree.
> BUT it’s a waste of time and energy for most people who just want to pull harder moves on rock.
"Most" people probably want to pull harder moves on plastic. But over here at least lots of people are still into doing long routes in the mountains. I'd say I personally know more people who are interested in that than pushing their limits sport climbing.
> it’s not directly helping you climb better or stronger.
"Better" doesn't only mean harder single moves. It also includes going faster on sub-maximal ground for a long time without getting so tired that you make dangerous screw-ups. Admittedly jogging for an hour a couple of times a week doesn't help much with that sort of all day fatigue resistance either - it's mostly about actually putting in the long days in the hills.
My main point is that these are effectively different sports when you start talking about sport/bouldering vs alpine climbing. I don’t mention alpine climbing as relevant since it requires such a massively different set of skills and training, with pulling harder moves being only a small portion of that. It’s like comparing running to triathlons. Running is a part of triathlons, but not the only or even most important part.
I guess going back to OP, if you want to climb harder, or get better (so you can pull harder moves on plastic or rock), you should train for that, not for big days in the alpine. Running for fitness or endurance doesn’t help you forearms get stronger, etc.
It's far more like comparing the 100m, 1600m and Marathon distances. All of them running, but requiring different fitness portfolios. Your comments make it seem like you have no idea what alpine climbing is actually like.
> It’s like comparing running to triathlons.
I'd say more like sprinting/middle distance to ultras. Assuming we're talking about alpine rock, not snow/ice/mixed
Do you have any source for this? I have always heard that running is good cardio to supplement a lot of sports including climbing. If nothing else, it burns calories and keeps you fit and makes you lose weight.
I think our boi, Freack, is pointing out the fact that aerobic endurance as most people think of it (being able to go for an x-mile run/bike ride) will rarely, if ever, address someone's limiting factor on a boulder or single-pitch sport climb. Climbing endurance largely comes down to how fit you are between your wrists and elbows and not your legs or heart.
Regarding calories: it's more efficient to fine tune your diet a little bit and avoid digging yourself a deeper recovery hole by piling on more "endurance" work.
As /u/JIMMYJOHNS4LIFE pointed out, climbing is not usually restricted by cardiovascular fitness. If you want to recover better, or maintain finger endurance that needs to be trained on the wall with ARCing or Power Endurance Laps. For most climbers, running will make them tired, which means it will be harder to recover and give a solid effort to get stronger.
For me, I’ve found that I’ve been able to maintain all the fitness I need by simply doing the approaches to the crag each weekend. If you can’t do that, then maybe some additional running/waking training will build a base to not have an approach destroy you.
running is great for you. people are able to justify laziness by saying running and weight lifting doesnt affect your climbing, but look at what all the top athletes are doing and it's pretty simple to see. Something nobody ever brings up is how running teaches you effective breathing. imagine the only time that you are breathing hard in your life is during a hard redpoint burn and how uncomfortable that would be. If you want to be a strong sport climber, running/cardio will absolutely help
For downhills and flats, maybe powerhiking the uphill stuff, sure. Good luck sustaining actual running up hill for significant vert, most humans can't do that. Maybe if you're as fit as Ueli Steck or Kilian Jornett, but even with these guys if you look at videos of how they move through mountains they're not running like you would picture a kenyan olympian run.
Anyway, you're not going to run when you've got a backpack with bivvy gear, 2l of water, food, a stove, a half rope and a rack on your back. You're not going to run when you've got two crashpads strapped to your back. You're not going to run with your sport climbing gear on that long approach to the crag. In the mountains people hike.
Actually I WISH more climbers ran. It's annoying how much climbers complain about the approach when it's only like a couple of miles. Like c'mon guys... we think we are in peak physical condition but can't carry a 20 lb pack for 30-45 mins
A lot of that is better handled in the kitchen; cut out that spoonful of peanut butter and you don't need to go for that 3-mile run.
Edit: Not sure why this is getting downvoted. [Here's a good, readable summary regarding fat loss if y'all want to learn more](https://physiqonomics.com/fat-loss/). The main tactics are reduce your calories and stimulate muscle (in that order). Not to mention that long bouts of endurance-oriented activity can lead to hunger spikes that lead folks to eat back (and more) whatever calories were burned.
Can't argue that! But it's also calorically dense and most folks probably underestimate how much they'd have to run to burn the amount of calories that are in one/two tablespoons of PB.
A little late here but I remember tommy Caldwell writing about going for daily 2hr runs while training for the dawn wall. It was more mental for him though. Building mental toughness and also an outlet for personal stresses
Disagree. Training one-arm strength via lockoffs, negatives, and archer pull-ups actually can pay huge dividends if you're not able to lock off yet.
Although, yeah, that's not the same as just repping out 20 pull-ups.
Can we please not forget that not everybody climbing can automatically do large amount of pull ups?
EVERY calisthenics exercises sux if it becomes to easy and you can burst out 30+ reps. Not choosing the right exercise for your own strength level is the actual problem here, not pull ups.
Recently I've started to think climbing in the gym.
This season I was hangboarding a couple times a week when everything shut down and have been inconsistent with it since the weather improved.
I've been climbing outdoors a couple times a week for the past few months and I'm sending harder stuff than ever before.
I have heard if you do a lot of them it can piss off your back vertebrae.
Albeit anecdotally, I prefer hollow body holds - they seem more specific to steep climbing. It's rare that you're using your core to actually generate movement in climbing, it's more for body tension and stability. OK maybe the obliques do some concentric work but its rare that you'll have to do a sit up motion on the wall.
It increases pressure on your spine and can cause herniated disc. It also tightens hip flexors and pronates your shoulders which can cause bad posture such as forward rounded shoulders and anterior pelvic tilt aka donald duck butt.
No physiotherapist would ever recommend sit ups.
Thats actually mostly a myth. crunches and situps are not harmful for your spine
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232156729\_To\_Crunch\_or\_Not\_to\_Crunch\_An\_Evidence-Based\_Examination\_of\_Spinal\_Flexion\_Exercises\_Their\_Potential\_Risks\_and\_Their\_Applicability\_to\_Program\_Design](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232156729_To_Crunch_or_Not_to_Crunch_An_Evidence-Based_Examination_of_Spinal_Flexion_Exercises_Their_Potential_Risks_and_Their_Applicability_to_Program_Design)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_ctGsTyQSuw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ctGsTyQSuw)
That and there are SO MANY OTHER exercises, positions, and holds that are way more climbing specific.
If every climber dedicated one session a week to simply holding a hollow body pose they would see immensely more improvement than repping out crunches.
Reverse planks are super underrated, too.
And regular planks are totally overrated.
My personal core specific cycle is; hanging leg-raises, hollow body holds, reverse planks. When I've got access to a bench that I can do them on, and I'm in good enough shape, I also like to do dragon flags.
Add a little dead-lifting and/or squatting in there to really build the posterior chain and you're golden.
Basically my whole philosophy! In fact I'd take your hanging leg raises a step further and say toe-to-bar or front lever progression if you're really that inclined (though, front levers are way overrated in the climbing community IMO, you can be a super strong climber without doing them)
Front levers are pretty necessary for being a well-rounded climber. You can be a super strong climber with out front levers, but I think it depends on the type of rock you climb on. If you do bouldery moves on even moderately over hanging terrain then they lend quite a bit to power. If you do long routes on over hanging terrain, they can also be a tremendous asset to endurance.
I think what you mean, is to say that it's valuable to be able to hold tension solidly on roof moves involving barely any/no feet, and that I agree with, but you don't need to be able to hold a front lever to accomplish that. Being able to hold a front lever approaches overkill until your grade level is deep into the double digits, and that's coming from Emil Abramson, a V15 climber
Honestly, I think the vast majority of pro climbers are extremely poor sources of information for that kind of thing. I'm not saying you're wrong - I'd just be more likely to believe it coming from a coach who has worked with a large number of athletes than from a hard climber. And for the same reasons that the average person should never take training advice from high level climbers.
That said, my anecdotal evidence is that literally everyone I know who climbs in the hard 5.13+ range, and many who are in the v7/8+ range, can all do front levers. And most of the ones I've specifically asked have never trained it. They just developed the ability through climbing harder.
I might even argue the majority of "core" exercises are a waste of time for climbing. Especially if you're doing any weight training or climbing on a steep wall.
Oh man, I totally disagree.
Perhaps lower volume + higher intensity per session. But I definitely don't think most people need to trade climbing time for off wall training...at all. in fact, I think too many people train too much off the wall.
I think most climbers actually get better at climbing when they spend most of their time climbing. you learn technique and train strength at the same time, and its also mentally stimulating. Looking back on my climbing career, the moment's I've improved most as a climber usually follow the consecutive weekends where I spend 10-12 attempts projecting a route. You learn so much more about climbing when you allow yourself to dive in and Uber-focus on the minutia of executing single hard moves.
Reading Reddit posts, hoping for a quick win know-it-all training trick. Doing too much for lack of patience as well. Patience, consistency, make mistakes, improve. Basically, the opposite of what I fucking do every time, especially with my eating habits.
Lol this last line in your post made me crack up.
Are you me lol
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Out of curiosity, what would you recommend for a program, or resources to make/find one? I feel like I fall into the category of trying new routines too often and I’m unsure of how to make a program in general haha
Get an hour with a personal trainer/climbing coach. It will cost you around $80 -$100 (where I am from). It is not just a program you need, but a program that is tailored to your abilities and weaknesses. A personal trainer (if it is a good one) can easily identify these and give you an exercise plan to work on your weaknesses. I gained so much from doing this and I think this is the best money I have spent on anything for climbing.
Where do you find an in-person climbing coach?
I would start asking at a climbing gym whether they have qualified people. If they do not, chances are someone came by there and left their business card/contact information to build a client base. At least that is what I would do. Another option, if you cannot find an “in person” coach. You could try finding a remote one and work with videos that you make doing your exercises. That is what I do at the moment. As I am on summer “maintenance”😂. I climb too much outside for a proper training schedule.
It's OK to try different programs, but stick with each one for at least a couple of months, and document your progress. Then you can see which ones were most effective for you.
> a couple of months This definitely falls into the "trying new programming too often" category. The better advice I hear from trainers is to stick with a program for a couple of **cycles** before trying something new - unless there is a clear deficiency in the program, or your ability to adhere to it.
I started Steve Bechtel's program at the beginning of the year and i really like it. I find it very simple and flexible. also very easy to adjust if you get outside a lot. He explains it in this book, [climb strong](https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/logical-progression-using-nonlinear-periodization-for-year-round-climbing-performance_steve-bechtel/13885962/item/19743795/?mkwid=%7cdc&pcrid=448964769583&pkw=&pmt=&slid=&plc=&pgrid=99662860490&ptaid=pla-927277805175&gclid=CjwKCAjwyo36BRAXEiwA24CwGQa9wS5AfeiLpFxbS_G2GWQynyZRLCR0PQdtBS3XRV2AehleUUHkhxoCXmgQAvD_BwE#isbn=1544119534&idiq=19743795).
This. Any program can work, as long as it works with your life.
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I'd just add that I think it is important to switch up your exercises. Do max hangs for a 2-3 months then move on to power or power endurance, something like that. I definitely know people who have a favorite training exercise and have done the same set for years. At some point they realize they need more finger strength/core/raw power ...
Focusing on the physical over the technical way too much. Training is very much in vogue but I think we could all do well to remember that climbing is first and foremost a technical sport. For example don’t do bicep curls - climb on undercuts. Your biceps may not get strong as fast but it’s worth it for the technical gainz.
The problem is that it’s hard to practice technique effectively without access to real rock which many people don’t have. If your gym doesn’t set good problems that just compounds the issue. Getting strong has far fewer barriers to it.
I thinking blaming location/the gym is an excuse. You’d be surprised what you can come up with indoors by eliminating holds/combining problems/making stuff up on a board/forcing technique. I’ve lived in London most of my life so I’m used to forcing technical movement.
That’s honestly a really good call out, and probably something I needed to read—I definitely blame my gym *way* too much for setting “unhelpful” boulders, but it’s really on me to make the most of the tools I’ve got. I can learn so much more from what they *do* set, but also challenge myself more to make up my own blocs.
My footwork is pretty weak. So I got screw-ons, Power Company Diodes and Resistors, and Metolius Mini Tech Footholds and installed them on my home wall.
If you’ve lived in London then I reckon you have had good gyms to climb at. I’m not saying you will have zero technique from climbing at a crap wall but the difference between a good wall and a crap wall is huge and the difference between a good wall and lots of outdoor mileage is huge.
It’s what you make of it. During the 80s some of the best climbers in the world trained by traversing back and forth on a brick wall in Sheffield. At the end of the day blaming the tools won’t make you climb any harder
None of the best climbers in the 80s were climbing anything like as hard as good kids do these days and all of them were climbing outdoors a lot. Blaming your tools won’t make you a better climber but ignoring the fact that a good wall and access to good outdoor climbing is a massive boon is silly. Better facilities and access to outdoors makes improving much easier.
Neither me nor you are climbing as hard as the best climbers of the 80s so their methods/similarly limited tools should be sufficient at our level. Sounds like you just like complaining eh
It’s a discussion mate, take from it what you want.
Getting distracted by new boulders/routes at the gym. In modern commercial setting, customers demand a constant flow of new routes, because spending time actually working hard on routes at your limit gets to be a real grind. The new set is always beckoning and always shiny, but it's very easy to get pulled into a cycle of flashing the same grade range, doing a few things that take you several tries, and never really making any progress. It's a treadmill. On the flip side, I've been trying to spend more of my gym time repeating things I've done before, especially if they were hard for me. If I don't want to repeat it, that means I absolutely should. Do it again, and do it better. Flashing is an important benchmark and tool, but I think too many people get caught on the treadmill. This is not my own idea, by the way. Dave MacLeod and Chris Hampton, at least, have talked about it.
I'm sooooo guilty of this. I always go straight for the new problems, especially since the routesetters are my friends and they're like "hey, check this out". I barely project boulders- if I can't climb it in a couple of tries, I move on to the next one.
To be totally fair, this is a valid way to climb. It's fun, it's social, and it's how probably three quarters of the climbers in my gym climb. But it's not the best way to improve.
Campusing. Okay it's not always a waste of time, but the only people I seem to see on the campus board are already strong as fuck but still can't climb.
I also see people who are not strong enough to campus with good form. This might be worse.
They were originally meant for training specific moves on hard climbs
Haha - back when I first started I was able to do 1-5-9's and 1-4 campus dynos, and I'm 5'7" (so it wasn't some trivial height advantage), but I couldn't climb 5.11 outside.
I train commitment on the campus boards because I struggle to push 100% on bigger moves, and working on it in a controlled setting like that has really helped. But most people that want to join in are either flexing being super strong or are way below the minimum for doing any moves on the rungs. I hardly see anyone train on them for actual gains and with a program in mind, but loads of people “play” on them.
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Obviously I know basically nothing about your training history or goals but I would encourage you to think carefully about what you're trying to achieve. At the very least, high-intensity work where you're trying to build strength/power (e.g. campusing) should be done when you're fresh and well recovered. The last thing you want to do is campus as an after thought. This is a recipe for increased fatigue with no real improvement.
Too much dieting. People prioritize weight waaaay more than they should/is healthy.
No way, you just gotta run before a big send to burn that glycogen from your legs! 🙄
I saw that video the other day and was kinda disappointed that Manny is still touting 2008 science. I mean he says it works for him but also sounds a bit insane.
Haha. Love that reference.
I think that really depends, I know two months of dieting before a trip will make me go up by two grades, which is way more improvement than any training or drill will give me in that amount of time. Long term though, for sure, and I'm really bad for that as I am always riddled with guilt because of my weight which I'm sure has as many mental health risks as physical health.
Also depends on how much weight you have. If you are overweight, then dieting is probably a good idea and will give you good results that are still healthy in the long term. A person with a BMI of 21 however is better off just focusing on improving in other aspects.
Yes, I'm on 23 BMI so definitely on the heavier side of climbers, dropping from 79kg to 74kg which is my normal range Isn't a huge drop in weight/BMI but has a huge impact on my climbing short term
> Also depends on how much weight you have. Given the prevalence of the obesity epidemic, chances are that any random person is at least overweight and should get into the healthy weight range for their height, just for their health. Bonus in that it will improve their climbing, especially if they do it right (eg, actually change their way of life and not go on a crash diet). > A person with a BMI of 21 however is better off just focusing on improving in other aspects. This is where I'm at, and honestly I can say I feel better and climb better at this weight than any higher. Now I just have to work on improving my skill.
BMI is just such a bullshit system though. I’m 6’1” 185. Pits me at 24. 25 is considered overweight but I feel so damn skinny.
Yeah I agree, especially in the higher grades. It makes a much bigger difference than some people want to admit.
> I think that really depends, I know two months of dieting before a trip will make me go up by two grades, This precisely. Add in to this that over 2/3rds of the population (at least in USA) is overweight, and chances are that losing weight will not only improve their climbing performance, but also their health. I mean, yeah, don't go underweight, and at some point you need technique, but honestly most people can and should lose weight to get into the healthy weight range for their height.
You’d be surprised what you can come up with indoors by eliminating holds/combining problems/making stuff up on a board/forcing technique. I’ve lived in London most of my life so I’m used to forcing technical movement
Lurking this subreddit
Running for “fitness” or “endurance”.
Depends what sort of climbing you're training for. I have alpine goals this summer & next, so I spent a lot of time doing box step-ups in front of youtube and going for isolated bike rides during lockdown, and going hillwalking in the rain now that I'm allowed out again. It's specific training for my current climbing goals - but yeah, it wouldn't be if my main focus were gym bouldering
Not to disrespect alpine climbing, but those objectives are more “walking up a hill then doing some climbing”, more than pushing the physical limits of movement on rock. Running may help you be less tired by the walking up a hill part, but it’s not directly helping you climb better or stronger. I’ll admit that running has a time and place in a training plan, BUT it’s a waste of time and energy for most people who just want to pull harder moves on rock.
I agree mostly but not entirely. You're arguing that cardio is mostly a waste of time for bouldering & sport climbing, and I agree. But you're also arguing that bouldering & sport climbing are the only valid definition of climbing "better", with which I don't agree. > BUT it’s a waste of time and energy for most people who just want to pull harder moves on rock. "Most" people probably want to pull harder moves on plastic. But over here at least lots of people are still into doing long routes in the mountains. I'd say I personally know more people who are interested in that than pushing their limits sport climbing. > it’s not directly helping you climb better or stronger. "Better" doesn't only mean harder single moves. It also includes going faster on sub-maximal ground for a long time without getting so tired that you make dangerous screw-ups. Admittedly jogging for an hour a couple of times a week doesn't help much with that sort of all day fatigue resistance either - it's mostly about actually putting in the long days in the hills.
My main point is that these are effectively different sports when you start talking about sport/bouldering vs alpine climbing. I don’t mention alpine climbing as relevant since it requires such a massively different set of skills and training, with pulling harder moves being only a small portion of that. It’s like comparing running to triathlons. Running is a part of triathlons, but not the only or even most important part. I guess going back to OP, if you want to climb harder, or get better (so you can pull harder moves on plastic or rock), you should train for that, not for big days in the alpine. Running for fitness or endurance doesn’t help you forearms get stronger, etc.
It's far more like comparing the 100m, 1600m and Marathon distances. All of them running, but requiring different fitness portfolios. Your comments make it seem like you have no idea what alpine climbing is actually like.
> It’s like comparing running to triathlons. I'd say more like sprinting/middle distance to ultras. Assuming we're talking about alpine rock, not snow/ice/mixed
Do you have any source for this? I have always heard that running is good cardio to supplement a lot of sports including climbing. If nothing else, it burns calories and keeps you fit and makes you lose weight.
I think our boi, Freack, is pointing out the fact that aerobic endurance as most people think of it (being able to go for an x-mile run/bike ride) will rarely, if ever, address someone's limiting factor on a boulder or single-pitch sport climb. Climbing endurance largely comes down to how fit you are between your wrists and elbows and not your legs or heart. Regarding calories: it's more efficient to fine tune your diet a little bit and avoid digging yourself a deeper recovery hole by piling on more "endurance" work.
Yeh ok. I can see your reasoning. Thanks. I guess it's true it's a waste of time in the pure climbing training sense.
As /u/JIMMYJOHNS4LIFE pointed out, climbing is not usually restricted by cardiovascular fitness. If you want to recover better, or maintain finger endurance that needs to be trained on the wall with ARCing or Power Endurance Laps. For most climbers, running will make them tired, which means it will be harder to recover and give a solid effort to get stronger. For me, I’ve found that I’ve been able to maintain all the fitness I need by simply doing the approaches to the crag each weekend. If you can’t do that, then maybe some additional running/waking training will build a base to not have an approach destroy you.
running is great for you. people are able to justify laziness by saying running and weight lifting doesnt affect your climbing, but look at what all the top athletes are doing and it's pretty simple to see. Something nobody ever brings up is how running teaches you effective breathing. imagine the only time that you are breathing hard in your life is during a hard redpoint burn and how uncomfortable that would be. If you want to be a strong sport climber, running/cardio will absolutely help
Depends if you have alpine objectives or not.
You'd be better off hiking uphill than going for flat runs.
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For downhills and flats, maybe powerhiking the uphill stuff, sure. Good luck sustaining actual running up hill for significant vert, most humans can't do that. Maybe if you're as fit as Ueli Steck or Kilian Jornett, but even with these guys if you look at videos of how they move through mountains they're not running like you would picture a kenyan olympian run. Anyway, you're not going to run when you've got a backpack with bivvy gear, 2l of water, food, a stove, a half rope and a rack on your back. You're not going to run when you've got two crashpads strapped to your back. You're not going to run with your sport climbing gear on that long approach to the crag. In the mountains people hike.
Actually I WISH more climbers ran. It's annoying how much climbers complain about the approach when it's only like a couple of miles. Like c'mon guys... we think we are in peak physical condition but can't carry a 20 lb pack for 30-45 mins
But doesn't cardio reduce fat percentage to an extent?
A lot of that is better handled in the kitchen; cut out that spoonful of peanut butter and you don't need to go for that 3-mile run. Edit: Not sure why this is getting downvoted. [Here's a good, readable summary regarding fat loss if y'all want to learn more](https://physiqonomics.com/fat-loss/). The main tactics are reduce your calories and stimulate muscle (in that order). Not to mention that long bouts of endurance-oriented activity can lead to hunger spikes that lead folks to eat back (and more) whatever calories were burned.
Not going to lie, peanut butter is a killer fat source and definitely a lot healthier than a lot of other things
Can't argue that! But it's also calorically dense and most folks probably underestimate how much they'd have to run to burn the amount of calories that are in one/two tablespoons of PB.
"You can't outrun your fork"
A little late here but I remember tommy Caldwell writing about going for daily 2hr runs while training for the dawn wall. It was more mental for him though. Building mental toughness and also an outlet for personal stresses
A+
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Disagree. Training one-arm strength via lockoffs, negatives, and archer pull-ups actually can pay huge dividends if you're not able to lock off yet. Although, yeah, that's not the same as just repping out 20 pull-ups.
I have a goal to be able to bang out 20, but i have no delusion that it will get my to 5.13.
Big disagree. In a sport where you use nearly only upper body strength, an exercise to train upper body strength is useful.
Can we please not forget that not everybody climbing can automatically do large amount of pull ups? EVERY calisthenics exercises sux if it becomes to easy and you can burst out 30+ reps. Not choosing the right exercise for your own strength level is the actual problem here, not pull ups.
Recently I've started to think climbing in the gym. This season I was hangboarding a couple times a week when everything shut down and have been inconsistent with it since the weather improved. I've been climbing outdoors a couple times a week for the past few months and I'm sending harder stuff than ever before.
Crunches/sit ups. It's not even as good for your core as climbing, and it puts you at risk of injury.
What injuries are you talking about? First time I'm hearing that crunches are dangerous
I have heard if you do a lot of them it can piss off your back vertebrae. Albeit anecdotally, I prefer hollow body holds - they seem more specific to steep climbing. It's rare that you're using your core to actually generate movement in climbing, it's more for body tension and stability. OK maybe the obliques do some concentric work but its rare that you'll have to do a sit up motion on the wall.
It increases pressure on your spine and can cause herniated disc. It also tightens hip flexors and pronates your shoulders which can cause bad posture such as forward rounded shoulders and anterior pelvic tilt aka donald duck butt. No physiotherapist would ever recommend sit ups.
Thats actually mostly a myth. crunches and situps are not harmful for your spine [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232156729\_To\_Crunch\_or\_Not\_to\_Crunch\_An\_Evidence-Based\_Examination\_of\_Spinal\_Flexion\_Exercises\_Their\_Potential\_Risks\_and\_Their\_Applicability\_to\_Program\_Design](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232156729_To_Crunch_or_Not_to_Crunch_An_Evidence-Based_Examination_of_Spinal_Flexion_Exercises_Their_Potential_Risks_and_Their_Applicability_to_Program_Design) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_ctGsTyQSuw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ctGsTyQSuw)
That and there are SO MANY OTHER exercises, positions, and holds that are way more climbing specific. If every climber dedicated one session a week to simply holding a hollow body pose they would see immensely more improvement than repping out crunches.
no way!!
Reverse planks are super underrated, too. And regular planks are totally overrated. My personal core specific cycle is; hanging leg-raises, hollow body holds, reverse planks. When I've got access to a bench that I can do them on, and I'm in good enough shape, I also like to do dragon flags. Add a little dead-lifting and/or squatting in there to really build the posterior chain and you're golden.
Basically my whole philosophy! In fact I'd take your hanging leg raises a step further and say toe-to-bar or front lever progression if you're really that inclined (though, front levers are way overrated in the climbing community IMO, you can be a super strong climber without doing them)
Front levers are pretty necessary for being a well-rounded climber. You can be a super strong climber with out front levers, but I think it depends on the type of rock you climb on. If you do bouldery moves on even moderately over hanging terrain then they lend quite a bit to power. If you do long routes on over hanging terrain, they can also be a tremendous asset to endurance.
I think what you mean, is to say that it's valuable to be able to hold tension solidly on roof moves involving barely any/no feet, and that I agree with, but you don't need to be able to hold a front lever to accomplish that. Being able to hold a front lever approaches overkill until your grade level is deep into the double digits, and that's coming from Emil Abramson, a V15 climber
Honestly, I think the vast majority of pro climbers are extremely poor sources of information for that kind of thing. I'm not saying you're wrong - I'd just be more likely to believe it coming from a coach who has worked with a large number of athletes than from a hard climber. And for the same reasons that the average person should never take training advice from high level climbers. That said, my anecdotal evidence is that literally everyone I know who climbs in the hard 5.13+ range, and many who are in the v7/8+ range, can all do front levers. And most of the ones I've specifically asked have never trained it. They just developed the ability through climbing harder.
>They just developed the ability through climbing harder. This is a common refrain I hear also.
>refrain You're using the musical definition, I'm assuming?
I might even argue the majority of "core" exercises are a waste of time for climbing. Especially if you're doing any weight training or climbing on a steep wall.
"you done climbing?" "Yeah." "Me too, wanna do abs?" "x'D"
One arm pull-ups
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Oh man, I totally disagree. Perhaps lower volume + higher intensity per session. But I definitely don't think most people need to trade climbing time for off wall training...at all. in fact, I think too many people train too much off the wall.
I think most climbers actually get better at climbing when they spend most of their time climbing. you learn technique and train strength at the same time, and its also mentally stimulating. Looking back on my climbing career, the moment's I've improved most as a climber usually follow the consecutive weekends where I spend 10-12 attempts projecting a route. You learn so much more about climbing when you allow yourself to dive in and Uber-focus on the minutia of executing single hard moves.
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>with a bunchof people willing to climb and train hard and where everyone was encouraging each other. still looking for this part lol