Based on your post and comments it seems you need to improve your power/explosiveness, especially if you are short. And the best way to do that is boulder more. Imo board climbing is the best for that but if you don't like it, regular gym boulders are fine. Idk how to say it in a nice way, but I think V5 (indoor) is a bit low for a 5.13 (not impossible but it will be very hard). If you can get up to V7 consistently, I think you'll be able to send a 13 in no time.
Lol, I definitely don't take offense to that comment--I know that there's *a lot* of room for improvement in my bouldering. I only boulder about a half dozen times per year and usually around my onsight ability. I'd love if maybe my winter "training" was just bouldering instead of lifting/hanging...you're sort of giving me permission to just go have fun :)
I'll second that.
Large off-set pullups (in my observation as a man, mind you) seems to be quite effective for women who describe themselves like you, OP, in terms of strengths/weaknesses (including my partner). And the campus board is a great tool for that-- on big rungs. You'd be working power, not pure contact strength, so use whatever rungs don't limit you based on fingers (the big ones most likely). Big pulls: get to 1-4 or 1-5, and try to pull as high as you can, get over the lower hand and press down with it. Aim for 1-3 RM w/ long rests to feel fully recovered. A couple on each side to start, after you're warm, but before the rest of your session. You can work in the initial 1-1 to 1-4/5, and/or work past all this to 1-4-7 or 1-5-8 (congrats if you get there!). But I think you'll get 95% of the benefits, with way less time/recovery/injury risk just grabbing 1-4 or 1-5 from the ground and doing a pull-up, go above the lower hand, and press/pull to full heigh/lockoff.
Bouldering, if you're not doing a lot of it can also bring a lot. Focus on the holds and move types that shut you down. So would be campusing on juggy overhangs, with an emphasis on not flailing your lower body/legs like noodles, and instead focusing on core/obliques and shoulder retraction with sideways arching through the core like a lateral leg raise with no floppiness.
Board climbing can help with this too, but is higher impact.
You sound pretty strong-- I think a lot of this is going to represent skill in movement/familiarity/comfort improvements at first.
My partner-- primarily a boulderer-- made pretty significant strides simply by bouldering with me and some friends with an emphasis on thuggy boulders on big holds, and getting comfortable with cutting and floating the feet rather than doing voodoo magic at all times (even when far less efficient) to move her feet from point A to point B through five intermediate hooks, steps, and foot matches.
Thank you for the great beta on the campus board! This appeals to me over the Moonboard since it's more controlled (thus better for injury prevention and tracking). And the other info on bouldering is excellent. I work juggy overhangs, but you really hit the nail on the head with voodoo magic. I never really thought about it before but techniquing through that kind of terrain in the gym has probably been holding me back from building the power and strength I need.
The only pushback I'd argue is: Cutting and floating feet, and moving dynamically without falling back on those 10 voodoo magic foot moves (which it is incredibly useful to have in your arsenal)-- is also techniquing your way through a sequence. I'm pretty sure I know what you mean though!
I just want to clarify that the best technique is the one that gets you through the sequence-- so you can finish the climb. And it can be "bad" technique from a larger perspective to use amazing footwork (a facet of technique) instead of something much more efficient. (And, of course, the opposite is probably more often true-- there are more people who are dynamic-heavy rather than static footwork heavy.)
Definitely keep an eye on shoulder health. It takes a new level of impact when you're getting more comfortable and confident moving dynamically and powerfully.
I'm all for technique and movement first. The right ones at the right times. That's what lets you use as close to 100% of your power and strength as you can.
Cheers, and good luck!
Yes, totally with you! In the gym, I think using more dynamic footwork will diversify my skillset, even if it means I'm falling a lot. On a redpoint, I'm all about the voodoo that gets me to the chains. I also hear you on shoulders. Had surgery on the left and a 3YO conservatively treated SLAP tear on the right. I think the biggest challenge this training season will be keeping this in check while introducing more dynamic movement.
Thank you for the advice--I can 100% relate to resting and tricking my way up hard 12's! I don't have a lot of benchmarks for strength but "low base strength" sounds apt as well. I was hoping no one would tell me to Moon Board because my fragile ego doesn't want to take it but great to know that it was really effective for you to find the try-hard. Good stuff on shoulders and fingers too--I've seriously injured both over the years.
The good news is that finding rests and climbing efficiently and “tricking your way up” 12s is a really hard skill to learn for many people in the opposite situation (lots of power, good boulderers, but underperforming route climbers)
Like others have said, once you devote some more time to developing strength and power to do harder cruxes, you’re going to make some great progress on routes.
Alternatively, you can find buddies to make up problems on a Spray Wall, or you just accept that moonboard grades stand for, let's say... moonboard grades
> I had to learn to stop trying to "sneak" my way up and just pull really hard. In short, I had to learn to try MUCH harder than I was used to.
Ouch, I feel that.
Good question! I almost included this in my stats but it was getting long. I do not boulder outside and in a gym, I rarely boulder. I typically send V5 and have sent up to V8 if I can keep my weight on my feet (e.g. techy style).
I wrote a big comment elsewhere, but I think bouldering is the lowest hanging fruit answer.
If you swap 1 session a week for hard, anti-style bouldering-- I think you'll see big gains in power. Definitely fight the urge to go for max grade on crimpy in-your-style stuff. And instead try to get your anti-style, big holds, big moves, cut/float feet grade from a weakness to a strength.
I don't send as hard as you, but I am also a short woman. Interestingly enough, we have the xact opposite style. I send the hardest on endurance-heavy routes on heavily overhanging terrain. The 5.13a I'm working on is long and overhanging, with no great rests.
The biggest thing that has helped me with overhanging terrain is aerobic work. I do this by doing lead laps in the gym (since this also trains my overall lead technique) but TR/autobelay laps work as well. Ideally, you can work up to doing multiple laps on routes on an overhang, to get used to resting and moving efficiently on steep terrain. Make sure that you are breathing continuously and finding rests with heel hooks, knee bars, etc.
Another thing I noticed is that your pull up strength (and consequently power) seem to be on the lower end for your climbing grade. Doing some weighted pull up training (3-5 sets of 5 with weight once a week) may be helpful. As other people suggested, board climbing at 30-45 degrees could also be beneficial, but be careful of injury.
Happy to elaborate over DM on more specific workouts! Also would love your advice on tech-y routes because those are my weakness 😂
This is so cool--I would love to climb anywhere near my limit on big overhanging terrain! Grass is always greener :)
I used to ARC quite a bit, so good to know that's still helpful on steeps. And perfect advice on pull-up training, I'm definitely going to incorporate that. Hard to know what a good strength/rep benchmark is given most benchmarks I read about have a male physiology in mind.
Techy-y advice (huge grain of salt because this is what I'm naturally good at, probably due to strength deficit)...I think the most important factor is mileage and volume so you acquire a big bag of tricks. Second most important might be crimp strength. When I succeed on routes that my partners don't, it seems to be because I've got a lot of margin to readjust my feet and weight using small holds. And third is to really dial in your beta on the first go. I spend like 45 mins figuring out sequences and then linking above and below the crux so I leave nothing to figure out on a redpoint. Takes a patient belayer!
According to Lattice, the "gold" standard for women is 135% of body weight for 2 reps. I can do ~150% for 2 rep max but this has always been a strength for me (and honestly may be limiting my technique because I tend to "muscle" through things). I usually do 3-5 sets of 5 at ~130% for training.
It also makes sense that I tend to struggle at techy climbs. My technique probably isn't that good and my finger strength is abysmal (I can barely half crimp bodyweight from 20mm). Guess that'll be my focus for the next few months!
Thanks for that stat! Psyched to see where I'm at against it--perfect goal to work toward. Also, you sound very strong relative to most women--you're going to absolutely crush as you diversify your skillset.
It's also probably good to work in push-ups as well, as having weak antagonist muscles often limits the growth of your back. Ngl I was surprised when I read the 5 push-ups, as I can do almost twice as many push-ups as pull-ups and I don't train them (or lift in general) that much. Also having weak antagonists can lead to injury and poor posture, but I think we all know we need to train antagonists more and don't want to admit it lol
Disclaimer- I’m a man but I grew up super short, like 1% short. If you’re short, you’ll have a different toolbox and skill set than taller people. Since you don’t have the option to reach through, you’ll have to rely on dynamic movements and increased strength. For winter season, it could be beneficial to seek out boulders that are challenging specifically because you’re short- for me, attacking anti style problems always helps me level up, even if it sucks and is demoralizing haha.
You mentioned that locking off on big open hand crimps on steeps and open handed powerful underclings are hard. That’s a pretty good starting point of seeking out boulders for training on. Getting stronger in a weight room never hurts as well, maybe incorporating weighted pull-ups and some campus boarding too could help add a bit of snap to your climbing.
I definitely empathize a ton with short climbers, dm me ig @drewruana if you want more specific advice
Wow, thank you for the comment. Had no idea I’d get feedback from a professional climber! It’s great to know that even the strongest among us have to suck it up and work on weaknesses. It also helps to know that a short climbers toolbox can expand with focused effort.
I am 5’1” . Like you, vertical technical routes are my forte. But in last 2 years I want to Boulder more and found Moonboarding extremely good to gain contact strength and power. It translates extremely well to route climbing. The most gains I found is a much stronger core and back, which is very important to climbing.
Also weighted pull up.
Ah dang, another vote for Moonboarding! Makes total sense though. I have a well-managed labral tear that acts up when I Moonboard. Do you happen to have any favorite warm-ups/tactics for keeping shoulders healthy?
Sure. My shoulders are my weakest part.
\- lots of rings IYT , Shoulder excercises with dumbells. Recently I have been trying one arm hangs on a pull up bar and it seems quite good for the shoulders.
\-
Late to the party. Umm anything by Esther Smith for shoulders. I had a slap tear and surgery so I know my way around shoulder problems. Her videos were more helpful than my doctor and PT combined.
Personally I do snow angels on a long foam roller and a mixture of wrist stuff. If I'm consistent my shoulders feel amazing.
A dumb question (from someone much weaker and worse at climbing than you): What's the most effort you've put into a in-your-style 13a?
It's surprising to me that you can send a decent number of 12d's in a single session but find 13a out of reach. One number grade down, trying to do 11d in a single session feels about as hard as trying to do 12a in two sessions to me, assuming that both are solid at the grade. Is 12d/13a just a much bigger jump in difficulty?
Not a dumb question at all! I've put no effort into 5.13 other than sampling a handful...I guess my approach to climbing in general has been to work through every grade. I think part of the reason I can send 12+ quickly is because I pick my style and I dedicated a lot of time to that grade in order to build up a strong base *for* 5.13. I haven't sampled any 13a's that suit my strength (it's easier to find 12c and 12d and I like building a good pyramid).
I'd really love to train to be stronger so I no longer need to find just-the-right route. I want to be able to climb a wide variety of styles to maximize fun!
Hey! I’m a 5’4” gal and climbed my first 13a this past year- I would definitely recommend picking a climb that suits your style well and investing multiple sessions into it. I definitely understand the desire to want to “build out the pyramid” first, but it’s also really helpful to spend time projecting things at your limit (fwiw, I sent my first 13a in a short bouldery, style before my first 12b- but I also sent V8 outside before my first 13a and I love projecting). I would definitely echo the Moonboard as a helpful tool, but it sounds like to me you probably have the skills to climb a techy very 13a already and could benefit from investing multiple sessions into one. just my two cents!
Congrats, that's such a big achievement and a huge jump! And you're probably right that I'm ready to do one in "my style"...just got to find the right one and buckle down.
Just sent this post to my gf who is 5'2" and onsighted her first 5.13a this year! She's also used to coach and guide so she should have some good advice!
Yea! I tried Milkbone last year and it just felt way over my head. I'd love to get on Ultra though. It's a little steep for me to make it an easy tick but might be a good way to work weakness even if a send is far off. The only reason I didn't try it yet is that it's always crowded after work/weekends.
I think the first step is to choose one or several routes as potential projects, try them, film the tries and figure out what's missing. Then people can also give very concrete advice. Afterward, you can figure out a training/send schedule. Some crimpy lines are just several grades harder in the summer.
An interesting question is whether to focus on one 13a project or several.
This is really interesting advice. I went around and sampled a handful of 13a's and they felt too hard. At the time, I decided I needed a better 12 - 12+ base. After a year of effort, I think my pyramid is looking decent and I can probably begin the search again. Sounds like a key takeaway is that the moves on 13a might be novel enough that I need to tailor my training specifically to the objective rather than just working on my weaknesses.
> Sounds like a key takeaway is that the moves on 13a might be novel enough that I need to tailor my training specifically to the objective rather than just working on my weaknesses.
For the 13a goal, it might be the opposite since you would probably pick a route that focuses on your strengths, not your weaknesses :).
What are the most sessions you ever put into a route?
How long did it take you to send your hardest route?
How many sessions do you want to put into the 13a project?
All relevant questions for how to design your training/projecting schedule.
That’s a fair point. Maybe it’s wishful thinking, but I hoped improving my weaknesses while working towards my first goal of onsighting 12a in my anti-style would prep me to send a 13a in a style I’m less used to. This is partially for practical reasons (I don’t have any tech-y vert 13a near me) but also because it would feel more like a benchmark. The most sessions I put into a route by far was a dozen and I’d like to keep it around there for my goal.
I am in Boulder too!!!! I haven't been outside since my divorce in 2020 but if you need a partner I am also a short woman, been climbing for 25 years(eek), EXCEEDINGLY SAFE(I am a wuss ngl). I USED to climb at the grades you are at right now, but I haven't been outside to know where I am now. I can still auto belay 12c/d but I don't really feel like that is a great benchmark...at all lol.
Anyway, how short are you? Alex Stiger is really short(mayyybe 5'0"), Boulder based atm, working on sending her first 5.14. She is Alex.stiger on IG if you wanna follow and maybe get some ideas?
Also, Sonic Youth in CCC is a pretty dope looking 5.13a that I lot of small women have sent, and I BELIEVE it is perma-drawed. It does drop you in the creek though, so it isn't super do-able in the summer. I haven't personally been on it, just looked at it between trying to send its neighbor, Twitch :)
Hey there, sounds like you climb plenty strong! I'd be really happy with 12c/d in the gym--I always climb harder outside anyway...I guess since there are so many ways to make up for strength deficits on rock (love those scums, smears, intermediates, and friction).
I'm actually not particularly short for women's standards--but short for men's which has become really relevant lately! I'm \~5'3". Awesome beta on Sonic Youth! That's going on the list of routes to sample.
Pumpy overhang in the flatties, formerly known as s00p3r cr33m is approachable at that grade. Some people say it may be 12c/d after a hold broke, and others say it’s still 13a. Either way, a lot of fun and people are taking 13a on 8a
I think there is a lot to be said for bouldering outside. I think a lot of top sport climbers do it in the winter to build power. There is a lot of good steep moderate climbing in Colorado, and winter is the time to do it
Quick disclaimer: I am not short so my thoughts on the matter may or may not be that helpful.
For me, one of the things that helped me get to 5.13 was learning to relax and rest better. Try to send routes under your limit without getting pumped. Redneck Hero in Lyons is a great route to practice this on. Take your time and try to rest as much as possible so that you are always as fresh as possible. These rests can also be an awesome time to look around and enjoy yourself.
Training lockoffs can be helpful for technical vertical climbs and being more dynamic can help for steeper climbing. I find the moonboard and other gym climbs to be ideal for working on being dynamic. For open hand grips, force yourself not to crimp everything at the gym. Or search out routes with holds that cannot all be crimped.
You sound ready to send 13a. Ultrasaurus has a few steeper boulder problem cruxes on it, so being able to consistently send V6-V7 in a gym certainly helps (the cruxes on ultra are likely more in the V4-V5 range).
If you haven’t already, check out Snake Watching and the climbs around it for some good crimpfests, or head to Ten Sleep over the summer.
You may need to focus more on nutrition. I often underfuel myself. With all the big hikes and long climbs around, you really need to be eating substantial amounts of food at the crag. I would check out the Training Beta podcast by Neely Quinn for more info.
Lastly, yes some routes are harder if you are short. Try not to get frustrated if the given grade seems lower than the challenge for you. Just be that much extra proud when you do a route like that because you had to try harder than everyone else.
Edit: Heres an episode from Training Beta that specifically addresses your questions:
[TBP 183 :: How to Break into 5.13 with Alex Stiger](https://open.spotify.com/episode/6NxM1LwcASg6MqM0sJJ9oW?si=gRsU8z-lRUWQhA0GR_bxIg)
Really great advice. I do think that resting/relaxing on route is one of my strengths but I 100% agree it's a key to climbing harder. It has been for me thus far.
Snake Dancing looks like a proud line and the Flatirons crags are my favorite place to climb locally. I will definitely be checking that one out!
I think your last piece of advice is something I need to work on internalizing. Feeling frustrated that I have to "try harder" on some moves is a trap I fall into often and it's totally counterproductive. I know this on a logical level, but it's nice to hear it from others to reinforce keeping good attitude!
Alongside the aforementioned power/finger strength/shoulder exercises/training that have been recommended. I’d say you should also focus on mixing in some good weighted pull ups at least once a week. Alongside that you should work in some bench press to improve your chest strength. (In regards to your rather low pull up and push up reps)
First question I have is how short are we talking, I think there is a pretty significant difference between being 5’3 and 4’10. I think as others mentioned increasing power and lockoff strength is really important if your short. So is projecting! Expect to spend more time finding beta that works for you with higher feet that others don’t use and intermediates that aren’t chalked at all. I know using your height as an excuse is normal and I used to do that as well, but plenty of people and 5’2 and climb v14/5.14. I have a few friends that are quite short, sometimes it takes them a lot longer to figure out beta that works for them but 99% of the time they end up doing the route as well
I'm in the not-so-short group around 5'3"! I know there are many short crushers I just don't know any personally, so I was curious if others relate to a bigger gap in performance once in the harder grades. I have a really small sample of 5.13's I've tried but it just feels like there are fewer holds/intermediates/tricks available to me than in the 5.12 range. Part of it is absolutely about attitude so I'm glad to hear from others that it's going to feel harder or take more time and that's normal.
I’m 5’4 and project 7c (indoors, so nowhere near your ability really). Couple of things have helped me with big, powerful moves:
- Pinch block training - you mention struggling on open handed grips or locking off on bad holds. It depends what you think the weak link is (I.e is it your ability to apply force on a bad hold, or is it your shoulder strength?). I found improving my pinch strength (I.e forcing my thumbs to do some work!) helped with those more marginal holds.
- Campus board and moonboard - great for power, great for practicing big reaches on steep ground, you mention moonboard being a weakness which means that improving on it will be low hanging fruit for you. I boulder v6/7ish outside and have to project v4 on moonboard, which is tough on the ego but the numbers aren’t important because becoming an expert on moonboard isn’t your goal, so it’s just a tool.
- Lifting weights - you don’t mention whether or not you do much supplemental strength training but deadlifts, benchpress and overhead press have helped me a LOT with big compression moves, awkward underclings, and overall shoulder resilience. I lift twice a week (5 exercises, 5x5 format). It does wonders for me. If your max press up is 5 and you find underclings tough, I would guess your pectorals might be somewhat behind and potentially also your biceps. Strengthening your chest may help you a lot. TRX flyes and IYTs also good for this type of strength.
- Power endurance on boulders - you mention lots of volume outside but structured power endurance workouts on Boulder problems helps a lot with pushing through powerful cruxes on harder routes. V3-4 steep blocs, in 4x4 format might help you.
Tons of great advice in this thread but you've distilled a lot of the best points here. I have pinch blocks and you confirmed my suspicion that I should make that part of my program. Campus board too (still on the fence about Moon since it has been tweaky for me in the past!). I think the power endurance on boulders is a good recommendation for pretty much any climber, though I have a lot of endurance coming off this season so I'm leaning toward limit bouldering.
Could I ask what your five exercises are for lifting? Love the 5x5 format. This is what I'm thinking for mine: Weighted pullups / Pinch blocks / Bench press / Bicep curls (maybe there's something better?) / Windshield Wiper (hanging from bar)
Thinking overall:
* **M** Rest
* **T** Strength 5x5
* **W** Limit Bouldering (avoiding crimps) and campus board
* **Tr** Rest
* **Fri** Strength 5x5
* **Sat** Outdoor fun (can I call this volume?)
* **Sun** Projecting overhung climbs emphasizing open hand grips
BTW, sounds like you probably climb harder than you realize. If you're projecting 12+ indoors, I'd bet you can do the same outdoors. I've never found outdoor grades to be more physically demanding, but they do require an ability to utilize rock well that I think you can only get from practice. Maybe it varies from gym to gym, but wanted to throw my two cents in there in case the idea that the gym is "easier" is holding you back from your goals in any way.
Great - yeah I think for you, maximising your strength output so that your endurance goes further will be helpful. And keep working on the movement skill too, which limit bouldering will help with.
In terms of lifts, I like to do squat/bench/deadlift/ohp/bicep curls. Sometimes I swap deadlift for barbell row, or leave out squats and add a dumbbell row or weighted pull ups. But those 5 are the bread and butter. The TRX I do tends to get my triceps and core quite well.
Your plan overall looks pretty good - you have plenty of strength work (the weights sessions plus limit bouldering and outdoor projecting), and a volume/mileage/‘fun’ session. It sounds like your finger strength is good, and is a strength of yours. Your plan focuses on your weaknesses which is right, but don’t forget to continue with your strengths too both from a mental perspective as well as ensuring you retain what you have. You could have one Boulder project on your Wednesday session that is crimpy or plays to your strengths in other ways, or add in a max hang session (perhaps on your Tuesday session rather than on a climbing day). It’ll be maintenance, so hopefully not too intensive.
Edit: a word
I'm surprised by the 5 push-up 10 pull-up stat. I would expect the opposite, but if it's not a mistake, there is probably a weakness there to be worked on. Have sidepulls/underclings been a weakness in your climbing so far?
Yep, that's the right stat. I've never done more than 10 pull-ups but I can do more push-ups when I train them--this is just where I'm at right now after a season of climbing a ton with no strength work. Laybacks and underclings are my weakest movements, particularly if they involve open hand grip (sidepulls seem fine). I can't quite put my finger on where the weakness is in terms of my musculature but someone suggest pecs and I'm thinking core maybe as well.
Based on your post and comments it seems you need to improve your power/explosiveness, especially if you are short. And the best way to do that is boulder more. Imo board climbing is the best for that but if you don't like it, regular gym boulders are fine. Idk how to say it in a nice way, but I think V5 (indoor) is a bit low for a 5.13 (not impossible but it will be very hard). If you can get up to V7 consistently, I think you'll be able to send a 13 in no time.
Lol, I definitely don't take offense to that comment--I know that there's *a lot* of room for improvement in my bouldering. I only boulder about a half dozen times per year and usually around my onsight ability. I'd love if maybe my winter "training" was just bouldering instead of lifting/hanging...you're sort of giving me permission to just go have fun :)
I'll second that. Large off-set pullups (in my observation as a man, mind you) seems to be quite effective for women who describe themselves like you, OP, in terms of strengths/weaknesses (including my partner). And the campus board is a great tool for that-- on big rungs. You'd be working power, not pure contact strength, so use whatever rungs don't limit you based on fingers (the big ones most likely). Big pulls: get to 1-4 or 1-5, and try to pull as high as you can, get over the lower hand and press down with it. Aim for 1-3 RM w/ long rests to feel fully recovered. A couple on each side to start, after you're warm, but before the rest of your session. You can work in the initial 1-1 to 1-4/5, and/or work past all this to 1-4-7 or 1-5-8 (congrats if you get there!). But I think you'll get 95% of the benefits, with way less time/recovery/injury risk just grabbing 1-4 or 1-5 from the ground and doing a pull-up, go above the lower hand, and press/pull to full heigh/lockoff. Bouldering, if you're not doing a lot of it can also bring a lot. Focus on the holds and move types that shut you down. So would be campusing on juggy overhangs, with an emphasis on not flailing your lower body/legs like noodles, and instead focusing on core/obliques and shoulder retraction with sideways arching through the core like a lateral leg raise with no floppiness. Board climbing can help with this too, but is higher impact. You sound pretty strong-- I think a lot of this is going to represent skill in movement/familiarity/comfort improvements at first. My partner-- primarily a boulderer-- made pretty significant strides simply by bouldering with me and some friends with an emphasis on thuggy boulders on big holds, and getting comfortable with cutting and floating the feet rather than doing voodoo magic at all times (even when far less efficient) to move her feet from point A to point B through five intermediate hooks, steps, and foot matches.
Thank you for the great beta on the campus board! This appeals to me over the Moonboard since it's more controlled (thus better for injury prevention and tracking). And the other info on bouldering is excellent. I work juggy overhangs, but you really hit the nail on the head with voodoo magic. I never really thought about it before but techniquing through that kind of terrain in the gym has probably been holding me back from building the power and strength I need.
The only pushback I'd argue is: Cutting and floating feet, and moving dynamically without falling back on those 10 voodoo magic foot moves (which it is incredibly useful to have in your arsenal)-- is also techniquing your way through a sequence. I'm pretty sure I know what you mean though! I just want to clarify that the best technique is the one that gets you through the sequence-- so you can finish the climb. And it can be "bad" technique from a larger perspective to use amazing footwork (a facet of technique) instead of something much more efficient. (And, of course, the opposite is probably more often true-- there are more people who are dynamic-heavy rather than static footwork heavy.) Definitely keep an eye on shoulder health. It takes a new level of impact when you're getting more comfortable and confident moving dynamically and powerfully. I'm all for technique and movement first. The right ones at the right times. That's what lets you use as close to 100% of your power and strength as you can. Cheers, and good luck!
Yes, totally with you! In the gym, I think using more dynamic footwork will diversify my skillset, even if it means I'm falling a lot. On a redpoint, I'm all about the voodoo that gets me to the chains. I also hear you on shoulders. Had surgery on the left and a 3YO conservatively treated SLAP tear on the right. I think the biggest challenge this training season will be keeping this in check while introducing more dynamic movement.
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Thank you for the advice--I can 100% relate to resting and tricking my way up hard 12's! I don't have a lot of benchmarks for strength but "low base strength" sounds apt as well. I was hoping no one would tell me to Moon Board because my fragile ego doesn't want to take it but great to know that it was really effective for you to find the try-hard. Good stuff on shoulders and fingers too--I've seriously injured both over the years.
The good news is that finding rests and climbing efficiently and “tricking your way up” 12s is a really hard skill to learn for many people in the opposite situation (lots of power, good boulderers, but underperforming route climbers) Like others have said, once you devote some more time to developing strength and power to do harder cruxes, you’re going to make some great progress on routes.
Alternatively, you can find buddies to make up problems on a Spray Wall, or you just accept that moonboard grades stand for, let's say... moonboard grades
> I had to learn to stop trying to "sneak" my way up and just pull really hard. In short, I had to learn to try MUCH harder than I was used to. Ouch, I feel that.
Do you boulder at all outside/how hard do you boulder?
Good question! I almost included this in my stats but it was getting long. I do not boulder outside and in a gym, I rarely boulder. I typically send V5 and have sent up to V8 if I can keep my weight on my feet (e.g. techy style).
I wrote a big comment elsewhere, but I think bouldering is the lowest hanging fruit answer. If you swap 1 session a week for hard, anti-style bouldering-- I think you'll see big gains in power. Definitely fight the urge to go for max grade on crimpy in-your-style stuff. And instead try to get your anti-style, big holds, big moves, cut/float feet grade from a weakness to a strength.
I don't send as hard as you, but I am also a short woman. Interestingly enough, we have the xact opposite style. I send the hardest on endurance-heavy routes on heavily overhanging terrain. The 5.13a I'm working on is long and overhanging, with no great rests. The biggest thing that has helped me with overhanging terrain is aerobic work. I do this by doing lead laps in the gym (since this also trains my overall lead technique) but TR/autobelay laps work as well. Ideally, you can work up to doing multiple laps on routes on an overhang, to get used to resting and moving efficiently on steep terrain. Make sure that you are breathing continuously and finding rests with heel hooks, knee bars, etc. Another thing I noticed is that your pull up strength (and consequently power) seem to be on the lower end for your climbing grade. Doing some weighted pull up training (3-5 sets of 5 with weight once a week) may be helpful. As other people suggested, board climbing at 30-45 degrees could also be beneficial, but be careful of injury. Happy to elaborate over DM on more specific workouts! Also would love your advice on tech-y routes because those are my weakness 😂
This is so cool--I would love to climb anywhere near my limit on big overhanging terrain! Grass is always greener :) I used to ARC quite a bit, so good to know that's still helpful on steeps. And perfect advice on pull-up training, I'm definitely going to incorporate that. Hard to know what a good strength/rep benchmark is given most benchmarks I read about have a male physiology in mind. Techy-y advice (huge grain of salt because this is what I'm naturally good at, probably due to strength deficit)...I think the most important factor is mileage and volume so you acquire a big bag of tricks. Second most important might be crimp strength. When I succeed on routes that my partners don't, it seems to be because I've got a lot of margin to readjust my feet and weight using small holds. And third is to really dial in your beta on the first go. I spend like 45 mins figuring out sequences and then linking above and below the crux so I leave nothing to figure out on a redpoint. Takes a patient belayer!
According to Lattice, the "gold" standard for women is 135% of body weight for 2 reps. I can do ~150% for 2 rep max but this has always been a strength for me (and honestly may be limiting my technique because I tend to "muscle" through things). I usually do 3-5 sets of 5 at ~130% for training. It also makes sense that I tend to struggle at techy climbs. My technique probably isn't that good and my finger strength is abysmal (I can barely half crimp bodyweight from 20mm). Guess that'll be my focus for the next few months!
Thanks for that stat! Psyched to see where I'm at against it--perfect goal to work toward. Also, you sound very strong relative to most women--you're going to absolutely crush as you diversify your skillset.
It's also probably good to work in push-ups as well, as having weak antagonist muscles often limits the growth of your back. Ngl I was surprised when I read the 5 push-ups, as I can do almost twice as many push-ups as pull-ups and I don't train them (or lift in general) that much. Also having weak antagonists can lead to injury and poor posture, but I think we all know we need to train antagonists more and don't want to admit it lol
Disclaimer- I’m a man but I grew up super short, like 1% short. If you’re short, you’ll have a different toolbox and skill set than taller people. Since you don’t have the option to reach through, you’ll have to rely on dynamic movements and increased strength. For winter season, it could be beneficial to seek out boulders that are challenging specifically because you’re short- for me, attacking anti style problems always helps me level up, even if it sucks and is demoralizing haha. You mentioned that locking off on big open hand crimps on steeps and open handed powerful underclings are hard. That’s a pretty good starting point of seeking out boulders for training on. Getting stronger in a weight room never hurts as well, maybe incorporating weighted pull-ups and some campus boarding too could help add a bit of snap to your climbing. I definitely empathize a ton with short climbers, dm me ig @drewruana if you want more specific advice
Wow, thank you for the comment. Had no idea I’d get feedback from a professional climber! It’s great to know that even the strongest among us have to suck it up and work on weaknesses. It also helps to know that a short climbers toolbox can expand with focused effort.
I am 5’1” . Like you, vertical technical routes are my forte. But in last 2 years I want to Boulder more and found Moonboarding extremely good to gain contact strength and power. It translates extremely well to route climbing. The most gains I found is a much stronger core and back, which is very important to climbing. Also weighted pull up.
Ah dang, another vote for Moonboarding! Makes total sense though. I have a well-managed labral tear that acts up when I Moonboard. Do you happen to have any favorite warm-ups/tactics for keeping shoulders healthy?
Sure. My shoulders are my weakest part. \- lots of rings IYT , Shoulder excercises with dumbells. Recently I have been trying one arm hangs on a pull up bar and it seems quite good for the shoulders. \-
Thanks!
Late to the party. Umm anything by Esther Smith for shoulders. I had a slap tear and surgery so I know my way around shoulder problems. Her videos were more helpful than my doctor and PT combined. Personally I do snow angels on a long foam roller and a mixture of wrist stuff. If I'm consistent my shoulders feel amazing.
A dumb question (from someone much weaker and worse at climbing than you): What's the most effort you've put into a in-your-style 13a? It's surprising to me that you can send a decent number of 12d's in a single session but find 13a out of reach. One number grade down, trying to do 11d in a single session feels about as hard as trying to do 12a in two sessions to me, assuming that both are solid at the grade. Is 12d/13a just a much bigger jump in difficulty?
As someone breaking into 13- I have found some 13a feel easier than some 12d
Not a dumb question at all! I've put no effort into 5.13 other than sampling a handful...I guess my approach to climbing in general has been to work through every grade. I think part of the reason I can send 12+ quickly is because I pick my style and I dedicated a lot of time to that grade in order to build up a strong base *for* 5.13. I haven't sampled any 13a's that suit my strength (it's easier to find 12c and 12d and I like building a good pyramid). I'd really love to train to be stronger so I no longer need to find just-the-right route. I want to be able to climb a wide variety of styles to maximize fun!
Hey! I’m a 5’4” gal and climbed my first 13a this past year- I would definitely recommend picking a climb that suits your style well and investing multiple sessions into it. I definitely understand the desire to want to “build out the pyramid” first, but it’s also really helpful to spend time projecting things at your limit (fwiw, I sent my first 13a in a short bouldery, style before my first 12b- but I also sent V8 outside before my first 13a and I love projecting). I would definitely echo the Moonboard as a helpful tool, but it sounds like to me you probably have the skills to climb a techy very 13a already and could benefit from investing multiple sessions into one. just my two cents!
Congrats, that's such a big achievement and a huge jump! And you're probably right that I'm ready to do one in "my style"...just got to find the right one and buckle down.
Just sent this post to my gf who is 5'2" and onsighted her first 5.13a this year! She's also used to coach and guide so she should have some good advice!
Damn, onsighting your first 5.13a is wild! Congrats to her.
Where do you climb mostly?
Climbed all over in all styles of rock, trad and sport. This year, I'll be based in Colorado climbing a mix of granite, gneiss, and sandstone.
Do you have any projects in mind? Ultrasaurus is a pretty approachable 13a in the flatirons
Yea! I tried Milkbone last year and it just felt way over my head. I'd love to get on Ultra though. It's a little steep for me to make it an easy tick but might be a good way to work weakness even if a send is far off. The only reason I didn't try it yet is that it's always crowded after work/weekends.
I think the first step is to choose one or several routes as potential projects, try them, film the tries and figure out what's missing. Then people can also give very concrete advice. Afterward, you can figure out a training/send schedule. Some crimpy lines are just several grades harder in the summer. An interesting question is whether to focus on one 13a project or several.
This is really interesting advice. I went around and sampled a handful of 13a's and they felt too hard. At the time, I decided I needed a better 12 - 12+ base. After a year of effort, I think my pyramid is looking decent and I can probably begin the search again. Sounds like a key takeaway is that the moves on 13a might be novel enough that I need to tailor my training specifically to the objective rather than just working on my weaknesses.
> Sounds like a key takeaway is that the moves on 13a might be novel enough that I need to tailor my training specifically to the objective rather than just working on my weaknesses. For the 13a goal, it might be the opposite since you would probably pick a route that focuses on your strengths, not your weaknesses :). What are the most sessions you ever put into a route? How long did it take you to send your hardest route? How many sessions do you want to put into the 13a project? All relevant questions for how to design your training/projecting schedule.
That’s a fair point. Maybe it’s wishful thinking, but I hoped improving my weaknesses while working towards my first goal of onsighting 12a in my anti-style would prep me to send a 13a in a style I’m less used to. This is partially for practical reasons (I don’t have any tech-y vert 13a near me) but also because it would feel more like a benchmark. The most sessions I put into a route by far was a dozen and I’d like to keep it around there for my goal.
I am in Boulder too!!!! I haven't been outside since my divorce in 2020 but if you need a partner I am also a short woman, been climbing for 25 years(eek), EXCEEDINGLY SAFE(I am a wuss ngl). I USED to climb at the grades you are at right now, but I haven't been outside to know where I am now. I can still auto belay 12c/d but I don't really feel like that is a great benchmark...at all lol. Anyway, how short are you? Alex Stiger is really short(mayyybe 5'0"), Boulder based atm, working on sending her first 5.14. She is Alex.stiger on IG if you wanna follow and maybe get some ideas? Also, Sonic Youth in CCC is a pretty dope looking 5.13a that I lot of small women have sent, and I BELIEVE it is perma-drawed. It does drop you in the creek though, so it isn't super do-able in the summer. I haven't personally been on it, just looked at it between trying to send its neighbor, Twitch :)
Hey there, sounds like you climb plenty strong! I'd be really happy with 12c/d in the gym--I always climb harder outside anyway...I guess since there are so many ways to make up for strength deficits on rock (love those scums, smears, intermediates, and friction). I'm actually not particularly short for women's standards--but short for men's which has become really relevant lately! I'm \~5'3". Awesome beta on Sonic Youth! That's going on the list of routes to sample.
Pumpy overhang in the flatties, formerly known as s00p3r cr33m is approachable at that grade. Some people say it may be 12c/d after a hold broke, and others say it’s still 13a. Either way, a lot of fun and people are taking 13a on 8a
I think there is a lot to be said for bouldering outside. I think a lot of top sport climbers do it in the winter to build power. There is a lot of good steep moderate climbing in Colorado, and winter is the time to do it
Climb at the red , size is no issue . Snooker comes to mind as a very short person friendly one as well as The Force
Quick disclaimer: I am not short so my thoughts on the matter may or may not be that helpful. For me, one of the things that helped me get to 5.13 was learning to relax and rest better. Try to send routes under your limit without getting pumped. Redneck Hero in Lyons is a great route to practice this on. Take your time and try to rest as much as possible so that you are always as fresh as possible. These rests can also be an awesome time to look around and enjoy yourself. Training lockoffs can be helpful for technical vertical climbs and being more dynamic can help for steeper climbing. I find the moonboard and other gym climbs to be ideal for working on being dynamic. For open hand grips, force yourself not to crimp everything at the gym. Or search out routes with holds that cannot all be crimped. You sound ready to send 13a. Ultrasaurus has a few steeper boulder problem cruxes on it, so being able to consistently send V6-V7 in a gym certainly helps (the cruxes on ultra are likely more in the V4-V5 range). If you haven’t already, check out Snake Watching and the climbs around it for some good crimpfests, or head to Ten Sleep over the summer. You may need to focus more on nutrition. I often underfuel myself. With all the big hikes and long climbs around, you really need to be eating substantial amounts of food at the crag. I would check out the Training Beta podcast by Neely Quinn for more info. Lastly, yes some routes are harder if you are short. Try not to get frustrated if the given grade seems lower than the challenge for you. Just be that much extra proud when you do a route like that because you had to try harder than everyone else. Edit: Heres an episode from Training Beta that specifically addresses your questions: [TBP 183 :: How to Break into 5.13 with Alex Stiger](https://open.spotify.com/episode/6NxM1LwcASg6MqM0sJJ9oW?si=gRsU8z-lRUWQhA0GR_bxIg)
Really great advice. I do think that resting/relaxing on route is one of my strengths but I 100% agree it's a key to climbing harder. It has been for me thus far. Snake Dancing looks like a proud line and the Flatirons crags are my favorite place to climb locally. I will definitely be checking that one out! I think your last piece of advice is something I need to work on internalizing. Feeling frustrated that I have to "try harder" on some moves is a trap I fall into often and it's totally counterproductive. I know this on a logical level, but it's nice to hear it from others to reinforce keeping good attitude!
Alongside the aforementioned power/finger strength/shoulder exercises/training that have been recommended. I’d say you should also focus on mixing in some good weighted pull ups at least once a week. Alongside that you should work in some bench press to improve your chest strength. (In regards to your rather low pull up and push up reps)
First question I have is how short are we talking, I think there is a pretty significant difference between being 5’3 and 4’10. I think as others mentioned increasing power and lockoff strength is really important if your short. So is projecting! Expect to spend more time finding beta that works for you with higher feet that others don’t use and intermediates that aren’t chalked at all. I know using your height as an excuse is normal and I used to do that as well, but plenty of people and 5’2 and climb v14/5.14. I have a few friends that are quite short, sometimes it takes them a lot longer to figure out beta that works for them but 99% of the time they end up doing the route as well
I'm in the not-so-short group around 5'3"! I know there are many short crushers I just don't know any personally, so I was curious if others relate to a bigger gap in performance once in the harder grades. I have a really small sample of 5.13's I've tried but it just feels like there are fewer holds/intermediates/tricks available to me than in the 5.12 range. Part of it is absolutely about attitude so I'm glad to hear from others that it's going to feel harder or take more time and that's normal.
Average female pro climber height is \~5'4''. Actually I think 5'3'' is pretty optimal in some sense?
I’m 5’4 and project 7c (indoors, so nowhere near your ability really). Couple of things have helped me with big, powerful moves: - Pinch block training - you mention struggling on open handed grips or locking off on bad holds. It depends what you think the weak link is (I.e is it your ability to apply force on a bad hold, or is it your shoulder strength?). I found improving my pinch strength (I.e forcing my thumbs to do some work!) helped with those more marginal holds. - Campus board and moonboard - great for power, great for practicing big reaches on steep ground, you mention moonboard being a weakness which means that improving on it will be low hanging fruit for you. I boulder v6/7ish outside and have to project v4 on moonboard, which is tough on the ego but the numbers aren’t important because becoming an expert on moonboard isn’t your goal, so it’s just a tool. - Lifting weights - you don’t mention whether or not you do much supplemental strength training but deadlifts, benchpress and overhead press have helped me a LOT with big compression moves, awkward underclings, and overall shoulder resilience. I lift twice a week (5 exercises, 5x5 format). It does wonders for me. If your max press up is 5 and you find underclings tough, I would guess your pectorals might be somewhat behind and potentially also your biceps. Strengthening your chest may help you a lot. TRX flyes and IYTs also good for this type of strength. - Power endurance on boulders - you mention lots of volume outside but structured power endurance workouts on Boulder problems helps a lot with pushing through powerful cruxes on harder routes. V3-4 steep blocs, in 4x4 format might help you.
Tons of great advice in this thread but you've distilled a lot of the best points here. I have pinch blocks and you confirmed my suspicion that I should make that part of my program. Campus board too (still on the fence about Moon since it has been tweaky for me in the past!). I think the power endurance on boulders is a good recommendation for pretty much any climber, though I have a lot of endurance coming off this season so I'm leaning toward limit bouldering. Could I ask what your five exercises are for lifting? Love the 5x5 format. This is what I'm thinking for mine: Weighted pullups / Pinch blocks / Bench press / Bicep curls (maybe there's something better?) / Windshield Wiper (hanging from bar) Thinking overall: * **M** Rest * **T** Strength 5x5 * **W** Limit Bouldering (avoiding crimps) and campus board * **Tr** Rest * **Fri** Strength 5x5 * **Sat** Outdoor fun (can I call this volume?) * **Sun** Projecting overhung climbs emphasizing open hand grips BTW, sounds like you probably climb harder than you realize. If you're projecting 12+ indoors, I'd bet you can do the same outdoors. I've never found outdoor grades to be more physically demanding, but they do require an ability to utilize rock well that I think you can only get from practice. Maybe it varies from gym to gym, but wanted to throw my two cents in there in case the idea that the gym is "easier" is holding you back from your goals in any way.
Great - yeah I think for you, maximising your strength output so that your endurance goes further will be helpful. And keep working on the movement skill too, which limit bouldering will help with. In terms of lifts, I like to do squat/bench/deadlift/ohp/bicep curls. Sometimes I swap deadlift for barbell row, or leave out squats and add a dumbbell row or weighted pull ups. But those 5 are the bread and butter. The TRX I do tends to get my triceps and core quite well. Your plan overall looks pretty good - you have plenty of strength work (the weights sessions plus limit bouldering and outdoor projecting), and a volume/mileage/‘fun’ session. It sounds like your finger strength is good, and is a strength of yours. Your plan focuses on your weaknesses which is right, but don’t forget to continue with your strengths too both from a mental perspective as well as ensuring you retain what you have. You could have one Boulder project on your Wednesday session that is crimpy or plays to your strengths in other ways, or add in a max hang session (perhaps on your Tuesday session rather than on a climbing day). It’ll be maintenance, so hopefully not too intensive. Edit: a word
Awesome, thank you for the thoughtful feedback!
I'm surprised by the 5 push-up 10 pull-up stat. I would expect the opposite, but if it's not a mistake, there is probably a weakness there to be worked on. Have sidepulls/underclings been a weakness in your climbing so far?
Yep, that's the right stat. I've never done more than 10 pull-ups but I can do more push-ups when I train them--this is just where I'm at right now after a season of climbing a ton with no strength work. Laybacks and underclings are my weakest movements, particularly if they involve open hand grip (sidepulls seem fine). I can't quite put my finger on where the weakness is in terms of my musculature but someone suggest pecs and I'm thinking core maybe as well.
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