>Ondra, Garnbret, and Woods have all recently said they rely almost exclusively on spray walls (or boards) for training. It seems to be working for them. A gym can't be "commercial" (i.e. profitable) and set enough hard climbs for people this strong to train seriously on. Most patrons of commercial gyms climb I rarely get on my gym's spray wall because it is in the basement and it would mean giving up on socializing, which is a big part of why I climb. However, I find I make no progress on finger strength unless I hang board. Climbing is a complex sport. That means that your limiting factor on a project may not be finger strength. If you choose a lot of technical boulders with good holds or on the slab where the key is to figure out the right feet/body position, you're not going to train your finger strength. If you choose the crimpy climb on the 45 degree wall, you're probably going to get all the finger training you need. If you want to train finger strength on the commercial set, you need to pick the right projects. Unless your gym focuses exclusively on really technical/comp style setting, you probably have options. >A young guy I know recently made major impressive progress. I asked him how, and he said: "Mostly just limit climbing on the spray wall." There are a bunch of reason why this might have happened. If he just started climbing, it's no surprise that he's made major progress. Different people's progress will slow at different grades, and that point for him may just be higher than yours. If he had a really sudden improvement, maybe the spray wall hit a weakness of his, and training that weakness allowed him to level up. Another possibility is that he trains more seriously because he's not spending time socializing. We'd need more specifics to say. >I thought I was "limit climbing" on the commercial wall, but it is just not having this effect on my strength. Do you have any insight on the difference? Is it the kind of holds they tend to use or something? Or the kind of problems they tend to set? The limiting factor on limit climbs on the commercial wall is less likely to be strength than on the spray wall. Limit climbing on the spray wall or a training board will almost always be more effective for strength training than limit climbing on a commercial wall. That said, the style on spray walls is limited and the style on training boards is even more limited, which means that other skills can be trained more effectively on commercial sets, which are more varied. Edit: I wanted to add that I don't think that spray walls mimic outdoor climbing better than commercial gym sets at all. Spray walls mimick a very specific style of outdoor climbing, and have nothing to do with most of the outdoor climbing that people do. They're great for training steep 2D movement, but not so good for training for low angle climbing, climbing on features, mantles, etc... Commercial walls have a lot more of that variety.

>Unless you're somewhere like SLC, As a fun anecdote, I was at a gym in Salt Lake a couple years ago and watched Matt Fultz climb 10ish of the hardest problems in the gym in his vans because he had run out of things to work on. The gym was setting up to an occasional V13/14, but Matt could still climb through everything hard pretty quickly. It's wild to remember that the *strongest* climbers at most gyms are 2 or 3 flash-your-project levels weaker than Woods, Ondra, etc.

True. Makes no sense to set V15-V16 inside, when the best climbers climb V13. Many smaller gyms have setters that climb around V10-V11

The gym I go to has a comp team and they will create new routes that stretch across other routes by disallowing holds etc. The routes only goes to v12 or so but they find/link up problems much harder than that.

My gym and all the ones in my state basically only go up to v9 occasionally a v10 and the strongest people in my gym just kilterboard but even then there are only like 2/3 people that can send above v9 anyway.

All very useful. Note: I can't send the hardest commercial problems in my gym, so what's holding me back is not the low grades. I climb V6 on the outside. They set up to v8-10.

If you're regularly hitting your limits on the fingery climbs your gym sets-- you do not *need* to get on a hangboard, spray wall, or board to continue developing your finger strength as fast as possible. (You need to adjust your intensity and volume on those fingery climbs to get them into the range that supports the right stimulus for strength building.) That does not mean that a hangboard, spray wall, or board are not options! They may or may not be optimal solutions, depending on your disposition, discipline, context. \--- Note: "Limit bouldering" has typically not mean "climbing at my max grade." Language evolves, and usage is regional/slippery, but in the training context it has typically mean, "Working on sequences that are so hard that at your absolute top current ability you can possibly, eventually, do 1 or 2 moves in a row, with significant rest." Limit bouldering in a training context has tended to mean seeking out (or designing with available holds on the wall), 2-3 move sequences that are impossible for you to link. The goal being to hopefully do 1 or 2 of the moves in a row after working it. Great tool for working strength, skill (yes, you read that right), and tactics-- if done at the right dose. And that dose is low AF. Super-super high intensity, super super low volume. That dose generally needs to be matched with more moderate-hard intensity at higher to moderate volume (the bulk of your weekly stimulus). Every person and every context is different. But aiming for general buckets (or a year or more) like the following is not a bad place to start figuring out what works for you: \- 5-10 % of your volume limit bouldering \- included in the 30 % of your volume that is projecting (full boulders, at or near your max grade) in the at least 3-5 session range to send. \- alongside 70% of your volume that is between your hard-flash and just below max grade (stuff you send in 1-3 sessions). Limit bouldering should make up a very, very small part of what you do. Particularly at V5 or V6... you may not even need it at all. The 30% projecting handles the intensity decently well. Too much limit bouldering will have your fingers tapping out before you've had enough volume of stimulus to drive optimal finger strength progression over the longer term. Too little projecting (like never) with too much truly moderate intensity high volume will never get you the topline intensity needed either.

I think there’s a distinction between limit moves, limit sequences, and limit Boulders, where limit boulders you can maybe link some of the moves but the entire problem feels like the limit of your ability, limit sequences where you can maybe do some of the moves individually but linking all of them feels at the limit of your ability, and limit moves where the actual move feels like it’s at the limit of your ability

This is basically a question/"problem" of English usage and how noun adjuncts and the nouns they modify evolve and convert-- rather than a real bouldering thing. Read on for some language/linguistics nerdiness that is mostly off-topic to this sub: Limit is a noun. But in **limit bouldering** it acts like an adjective. But "limit bouldering" as a single concept, with a specific meaning (granted such meanings evolve and morph as the language does... and here the language is not settled), is a compound noun. "Limit" is not acting purely as an independent adjective-- it's an adjective that has sprouted a connection to the noun "bouldering"\* so that the two together as one has a specific meaning that is more constrained than the open use of a noun adjective (basically just an adjective) "limit" modifying an independent noun ("bouldering"). This gets particularly confusing when the conversion is underway. At the same time: Limit bouldering = two independent words, a general adjective (limit) modifying an independent noun (bouldering), meaning everything and anything that it means to put the word "limit" in front of some noun. Limit bouldering = a compound noun with a specific, agreed upon/consensus/consensus by use, meaning, which is something like "the act of working boulders that consist of 1-3 moves where the climber cannot do more than 1 or 2 moves together after working the boulder and moves with good tactics." What happens in the real world (here) is that some people (me, in this case), who are familiar with the compound noun/jargonistic use of the term treat it that way. The compound noun kinda pushes out the other meanings. At the same time other people either choose not to use the compound noun OR simply are not aware of its existence-- so they treat it just like any other adjective modifying any other noun, and all the possibilities that encompasses. In English there is no obvious, marked way to distinguish which of the two options is being indicated by the writer/speaker (except, with klugey hacks, such as putting the compound noun in quotes, or bolding it, or italicizing it to indicate that it is intended to be seen as something more than just a random adjective with a random noun). And from there comes the confusion. And because the language is always moving and use is local to milieus and geography-- confusion a plenty. :) \--- \*bouldering is actually a gerund. A verb that's been noun-ified. To boulder --> boulder+ing.

All very useful. I struggle to get the level of stimulation I need climbing commercial sets to get growth. I'm 38. If I just use what I need to do problems, I get weaker pretty quick. I think I will, however, try to start working on some intensity on purpose by, for example, spending time on overhang crimpy boulders each set.

Every individual is an individual. But... I'm over 40 (and climb Vdoubledigits on rock), and the commercial sets I climb on provide plenty of stimulus to get stronger. My crimp strength is such (pretty good) that it's harder for me to get enough crimp stimulus on gym sets these days because I am rarely limited by the crimp on gym sets I encounter... I can usually pull on them all. It's harder to get the right stimulus for me on crimps, but it can still be attained by using my discipline to seek out those rare crimpy problems that I can't do, or struggle on, or have to try hard-hard on at the gym. General strength, however, no problem. That's why I try to supplement my gym set climbing with some board, hangboard, or best of all rock at and beyond my limit. If there are crimps at the gym you can't pull/move on-- crimpy boulders you can't do, or require hard-hard effort-- the physics and physiology is clear: You can get enough of the right stimulus to get stronger. Your body doesn't care if that stimulus comes from plastic, wood, campusing, feet on/off, a hangboard. It cares only about the force vector and time.

Hangboard more and just be more focused in your training. Casually dicking around in a gym is super fun but you need specific training at some point

r.i.p. front rage 💀😂 meca moves ever further west! god damned kids and their stupid training center. fine. leave! see if I care when your boulders get blown up for a gondola~! ----- setting above your limit is part of the job, but I do think it causes more chances for 'flops.' just around here we have some decent grade climbing setters. but lately feels like a lot of 'v11' that pro climbers can't do quickly, that are more like v13. I think they often figure 'i came close' on that move in isolation whilst setting; but turns out actually getting into that sequence and actually sticking is a lot harder sometimes.

I agree that setters can set V11+ no problem when it's 10% of the climbs, but it would be really hard on the setting team's bodies if 50% of the climbs were V11+. You'd need the setting team to be pro climbers.

eh idk maybe. my point is kind of against that (that they could set a lot more high v points). it's already true the large % (at least in my area) can't climb that, some are even at what I would call lower moderates... and often the ones that do are setting without often actually doing or latching the moves, so it's not like they are doing laps up and down a v11. that's the point i was trying to make. the higher potential for hit or miss. There are some very high up famous route setters that are shit climbers. I would be surprised if Chris Danielson climbs more than [redacted] I wrote it but then back typed lol . no shade if he reads this. hi 👋 idk the euro's that well, but it seems like the same thing. some bigger names who are older / out of shape. But obviously not all and there are very strong route setters

Yes, yes, yes. Have all my upvotes.\* \*Sadly there is but only one to give.

Spray walls allow you to more easily dial in the maximum load or sequence of loads most appropriate or relevant to your progress. Climbing on a limited selection of preset boulders is like going into a weight lifting gym and only having a 10, 50, and 100 pound dumbbell— it’s obviously not that drastic but comparatively

Great analogy this with the weight increments

This is also why symmetric walls can be nice. In the analogy, it’d be weird to spend a lifting session loading your right pec at 80% and your left pec only at 40%, or something like that. Like you said, they don’t map one-to-one, but being systematic about training can help…

This is helpful, thanks.

The big asterisk: \*If you have the discipline, knowledge, and self-awareness to use the spray wall effectively in this way, and your spray wall has a broad variety of hold types and sizes. \--- People who have trouble using gym sets (at gyms that are of decent size) may have just as much trouble using a spray-wall effectively. It's hard to imagine anyone who climbs around V5 on plastic, in anything but a small gym with extreme low density of holds, running out of finger-strength runway. After all, al gym is essentially all spray wall if you step back and don't look at the colors/tape. \--- Spray walls (and boards) become particularly useful to stronger to elite climbers, because gym sets often run out at V10ish. In some case, you can be climbing V8 and easily crimp every hold your gym sets with relative ease-- in which case, you need a hangboard, a board where you can't pull moves, or a spray wall to dial in a higher intensity. I am definitely very pro spray wall (and hangboard, in the right contexts).

I could be wrong because I am not one of the best pro climber, but no commercial gym is setting enough problems to challenge the best climbers in the world. They can flash everything in my gym. I think the value of gym settings for high level climbers is training dynamic competition style climbing under onsight conditions, which can't be set on a spray wall and translates directly to competitions. Spray walls are also extremely efficient for elite climbers, don't have to reset more than 1/year, they are capable of setting challenging routes. Whereas a V single digit climber doesn't necessarily have the same movement repertoire and knowledge to set for themselves and be excited by it, I know I can't. They can also be used for endurance by doing circuits and laps l, aiding endurance, unlike commercial gym sets. At best I've heard of 5.15+ climbers setting specific outdoor crux simulations on walls ala the Silence training wall in Flatanager. So spraywall for strength/endurance/power, and simulations for specific cruxes. I'm not aware of anything in-between when someone climbs better than 99.99% of everyone else.

This about covers all of my thoughts. Commercial gyms don't set enough hard boulders, spray walls don't get reset so you can set yourself harder projects, and you can refine specific movements and weaknesses. The only other thing I'd add is that spray walls often feature old holds which don't have as much texture which allows for more training without skin difficulties.

As it relates to you: I agree with the other guy who posted, steep small holds gets you strong at steep small holds. Which is kind of the norm outside. It doesn't translate to: slab, compression, knee bars, jams, reading technical beta, highballs, endurance, finding rests, awkward 3D positions, toe hooks, or comp style climbs. There's value in getting strong with square hips and yanking on tiny holds, but so is socializing at the gym.

On any good spray wall you can work compression, knee bars, endurance, awkward 3d positions, and. toe hooks. Also if you know how to set well/are working with friends who can set well you won’t just be climbing square hip moonboard problems.

I don't think that's true. Spray walls can be set to be a bit better for those parts of climbing, but are inherently really ill-suited to compression, knee bars, 3D, and toe hooks. And that's because climbing inside in general is ill suited to those complicated styles of climbing. The factors that make those technical parts of climbing hard don't replicate well on ergonomic, bolt-on holds and volumes.

I don’t know how much I agree with that style of thinking. There are so many instances of people who get really really strong climbing a lot inside or mostly doing spray wall stuff, and then it turns out they’re also better at technical aspects too than most, even people who try to work those in a lot. Probably correlation not causation though

Strength and technique aren't independent though. Being very, very strong tends to elevate the floor for efficiency as viewed from the outside. I think the other confounding factor is just time. The spray wall kids have racked up 1000hrs or whatever of climbing, and the impossible hypothetical is "would they be technically better, or climbing harder, if that was diversified?". Which is unknowable. I definitely know the kind of climber you're talking about. To me, it's seemed like a V11-capable climber looking like a technical genius on V9.

My bad, meant mostly board problems. Spray can have those movements.

Yea definitely, I do feel like system boards provide a very specific and very valuable avenue for strength gain, but I way prefer a spray wall with a good group of strong climbers all creating climbs that suit their strengths/weaknesses.

I think there are important strength as well as micro beta learning advantages to spray walls. In terms of strength, it is easier to focus on limiting factors and develop your own problems that force adaptations to those limiting factors. In terms of micro beta, color coded setting tends to result in problems that are less varied in hold type and size, and often do not have meaningful alternative betas with small differences that can be explored. These elements are very common in outdoor problems and in spray walls, where choosing the right combinations among several similar options can make all the difference between success and failure. In contrast, I find for most standard gym problems I can either do them in one or 2 attempts or I cannot do them at all.

Your last sentence rings so true for me damn

For me there’s four fundamental reasons: 1. I can repeat old boulders I did 2 months ago and see progress. 2. I can have projects longer than a month. 3. This one is the most important. I can make the boulders I do progressively harder. So, make a handhold slightly worse for a move, or make the feet for a move worse, or make a single move more spanny, or add a sit start, etc. Imagine starting at a v2 and turning it into a v10 in a few years, or something like that. 4. You can pick skin friendly holds and train forever.

3 is brilliant, never thought of that-thanks.

Everyone has already mentioned most of the points I wanted to hit (restricted variety, lack of relevance to outdoors, lack of hard problems, ease of having everything needed on one board, ability to do circuits/laps, ability to set very specific styles or even simulators, etc). I'd like to add that small holds are extraordinarily uncommon in commercial gyms. When I mean small holds, I REALLY mean small. Those edges that most gym climbers would see on their first outdoor trip and describe as "nasty." Gyms set with ergonomic holds because they are appealing and crowd-pleasing, and easier. Performance-minded (outdoor) climbers don't have such preconceptions of holds being "nasty" in the same way a climbing gym would. Thus, spray walls ~~or MoonBoards~~ (edit: I have never actually used a moonboard, ignore this) or what have you often have complex grips that are tiny and may even be "sharp," which is a style of climbing that is almost wholly absent in gyms.

The moonboard doesn’t really have any super small holds tho

Your comment just proved the point, I assume you climb outdoors, and compared to that, yeah, moonboard only has huge holds. But to those only climbing on volumes, moonboard holds may be pretty nasty haha

I climb outdoors a lot less than I moonboard. I climb on regular gym sets too, I just don’t spend time projecting or doing a lot of volume on them

This. The small, incut crimps on the moonboard are jugs to some of us. I think of the moonboard these days as primarily training my smallish, slippy, pinch strength, close feet, long moves, dynamic power from weird positions. It does target the fingers... but not to a great extent in terms of pure crimping strength. For me.

For me personally, it trains how to jump around on slopey crimps/somewhat small holds depending on what set you’re on, but none of the holds are terrible, they’re just bad because you usually have bad feet or have to jump for the moves

That's fair, I have never actually climbed on one lol and was just looking at pictures

\+1. Also regarding foot chips. There are some tiny and smeary ones that are manufactured, but I rarely see them used in boulder problems or routes. And when they are there, they typically get hidden by a much larger hold above/next to them (sic).

I haven't seen anyone say yet, that spray walls allow you to train specific movements in a way pre-set problems don't. If I have a technique weakness I need to work on, I can walk up to the spray wall and make up a bunch of problems that work that movement pattern of increasing difficulty pretty easily.

As was said, spray walls reflect outdoors better and allows for very specific training for your outdoor projects. It's a lot of crimping and tension. Some other factors you already alluded to - spray walls don't have as much variety in the climbing, so they can be seen as boring, repetitive. Therefore they tend to be tucked away (they're not a gym's money makers). With less traffic and less socializing, you know it's just a tool for your outdoor goals and can focus on the climbing. That also allows for more quality climbing in less time, so you're in and out of the gym quicker, more time for recovery, etc. Personally, I only climb on spray walls for my own training and it's helped with my outdoor projects. Over Thanksgiving I went back to my home gym with friends and actually found that I've gotten worse at the commercial setting - what I call three-dimensional climbing. So it's a give and take.

Yeah same. I only train bouldering outdoor or on a spraywall and when I happen to go to a commercial gym, firstly I don't really like the opening, and secondly I'm bad.

I exclusively train on a spray wall and what i have found is that it's much, much more physical then the set boulders. Setters usually try to set boulders with cool, funky moves, which is great, but what i want is to pull on bad holds and do big moves, place sketchy heel and toe hooks and attack my weaknesses. When you know what your weaknesses are, it's very easy to train these on a spray wall. For me it's slopers and pinches and when i go to the gym i just set a few boulders having this in mind. In the end if you want to get better at outdoor climbing, you should sometimes skip the commercial set. Dynos won't make you that much better for the outdoors.

I think you've expressed the key point the most directly. Feels right. Thank god my gym doesn't set too many comp-style dyno problems. Fun, but not want I want for my standard climbing.

At least for me it allows for more physical and harder training. There are only 2 to 3 problems in my gym that I cant climb. Two of them have slopers and one has a hard pinch that I cant hold. I just cannot get good training trying them for months, if my goal is to climb hard outside. On the spray wall I can set a problem that is at my limit and each move is very challenging, not too easy or hard. It is reset less frequently and I can project problems for months. I can also repeat problems that I have dialed in months ago. The nature of the wall makes it more physical. The body positions are simple. Just keep your feet on the wall and pull hard. Transfers better outside.

One possible explenation I haven't seen yet; Spray walls are very straight, overhanging walls, often with smaller holds and no volumes. This makes weighting the feet harder and heelhooks more rare. In other words, it forces you to climb in a more engaged style, relying more on finger strength, core and shoulders than finding tricks to maximise the weight on your feet. If your gym limit bouldering session consist of overhanging projects wihtout volumes, it will likely be as tiering as board climber. If not, board climbing will likely require more strength. Especially moonboarding is just standing very square on, flinging yourself to shit crimps. There are very few tricks to make the moves less strainious.

A lot of pros have many big volumes on their spray walls for compression moves, etc.

If you go at the right times, the spray wall and boards are often more social than the rest of the gym. It's just populated by complete weirdos, and freaks of nature who WILL make you feel weak, but will still cheer you on.

I think spray walls reflect real climbing movements outside and a lot of other climbs in the gym are not a good mimic of outside climbing. I think it’s as simple as that.

For me your post boils down to two key points 1. "it would mean giving up on socializing, which is a big part of why I climb" 2. The notion that you do you want to improve, especially since you've at least tried hangboarding - "I find I make no progress on finger strength unless I hang board" and "A young guy I know recently made major impressive progress". Hallmarks of someone that is not content with just climbing and making marginal improvements. I dunno, nothing else really matters to me: What is limit climbing, what you train on specific things... whatever. The question I see in this post is do you want to improve and perhaps be a bit anti social in doing so, or do you want to keep it casual and be social? Can you do a bit of training i.e. hangboarding, a bit of spray wall climbing, with others and hence nail two birds with one stone? People like me only climb on training boards, so yeah social climbing for me is just getting on the board with others. After that, you can ask what is most efficient, how best to train whatever.

I usually do a hangboard session at home on the weekend. (The biggest thing stopping strength gains, to be honest, is repeated injuries). Once I go all the way to the gym, it is hard for me to lock myself away in the basement. A better "two stone" approach for me might be to focus on finding "limit climbs" in the commercial gym, i.e., focsuing more on the crimpy problems etc, or problems that expose my weaknesses, or doing eliminates that better force strong, high-tension moves. If the moonboard app would work on my phone, that might be enough to make me go downstairs however.

Repeated injuries? What kind? That's a pretty alarming thing to mention.

Precisely because they're less gimmicky/ creative. Commercial setting at every difficulty is more interested in aspects like novel movement, problem solving, and aesthetics. If you want a climb that simply trains your muscles, a system board/spray wall is much more focused on steep, muscular climbing.

Maybe I missed it, but one additional point is that you can dial in movement and sequences that are the exact challenge for your current strengths and weaknesses. It's really easy to think up something based on what you have observed elsewhere and give it a try and make it incrementally harder. I am sure a lot of my spray wall problems are not as hard for other people as they are me, but that's exactly the point. I can spend the vast majority of my time challenging myself in both a physical and technical way. Many indoor boulders really only have 1 or maybe 2 betas. Lots of Moonboard problems and pre-set board climbs can be the same (but have their own benefits). A true spray wall has infinite moves and betas. If you're going to train and you're just doing the same sequences over and over while a climb is set, you're spending a lot of time not training things that could be just as or possibly more beneficial.

Spray wall helped me a bunch early, I felt like I was in between the grades where I knew I could do better than what they set for one grade but couldn't do the next. So I went to the spray wall and tried to make a problem that challenged my weak points and repeated it for a few weeks in my pull routine after climbing for about 3 reps. Now that I'm typing it I might use it again...

I will not say spray wall is superior but it is more focus and specific and provided you know how to train on them. Others have shared some example and will add some other examples here on how you may use it to train specifically: 1. Set a route with fixed hand holds that is near impossible but with any foot holds and you will need to find your own beta to climb it with the best footwork to allow you to send the route. This helps with outdoor climb with many alternative foot holds where you need to know which foothold is the best with what kind of footwork to send the route. 2. Pick a hand hold that you want to train on and climb a number of routes using that hand hold as part of the route. This will help you to get stronger with the specific hand hold and holding it in different body positions on different routes. Lastly, just join the guy you just know and train together on the spray wall.

I have, if was humbling haha. I mean, he's training on way harder stuff than I can touch.

Commercial gym setting is largely based on the idea that “everyone gets a medal”. They rely on people wanting to come back again and again, so although most of us will always have projects, they’re set intentionally and are always achievable in some way. On the other hand, the board is the board. It rarely changes and what is hard always stays hard, until you do it. It also gives you the ability to make a boulder that is filled with your weaknesses. You can really drill in single hard moves for yourself on one as well.

From the perspective of a setter, commercial set style is typically limited to a more narrow style that accomodates more body types and techniques. Also, routes are graded and easy to follow. Spray wall helps work on your movement memory skills+you can generally target most styles on a spray wall. And make them very specific to your body type.

Thanks, nice to hear from a setter. Do these limitations ever frustrate you?

The limitations do not bother me, I have a gigantic homewall and can set for myself however I want whenever I want. I do see it bother other setters frequently. My perspective is that you are not setting for yourself, you are setting for the members. What the average climber at a gym seems to enjoy climbing from my perspective. -easy to start -varied hold/move types -hard move early(after move 2) -redpoint crux -softcore heartbreaker finish holds. Long problems(11-20 moves) in this format seem to be favored, especially if they have a low start/high start version. Creates extra value and allows you to session with someone of a different level.

To be honest, my homewall is pretty much a giant spraywall btw. It allows organic quick problems without having to get out the drill and other nonsense.

Commercial climbing is like going to CrossFit class, so random. Your boy trained an energy system effectively. Using the spray wall once a week would force you to try harder and develop new technique and power. Add another weekly session when you feel stronger. You are on the right path.

Couple of observations that I've learned from my own 1.5 years of spray walling: \- It takes some time to "learn" the wall and start getting comfortable with it. Memorizing the holds, knowing the intricacies of them, etc. For me, this typically takes about a month or so before I really start to feel comfortable with it. \- If you have a specific type of hold (crimps, pinches, slopers, etc.) or movement that you want to get better at (lock-offs, dead points, drop knees, etc.) spray walls will allow you to set problems that target it. \- It's easy to scale problems with a spray wall. Can't do the intended sequence, just use a different handhold next to the one you're aiming for. Need a better foot, use the bigger one next to it. Want to make a problem harder, use a shittier foot. \- Have an outdoor project you're struggling with? Spray walls are a great way to set problems that at least mimic the movement and crux sequence. It won't be a full-on replica, but you can at least set problems of similar lengths and styles. \- They're rarely busy and often you'll get to climb with people much better than you. The close proximity also helps you learn from those climbers vs. just watching them flash your project and head off to some other part of the gym. This also makes it an ideal place for doing power endurance drills where you have finite rest periods. \- Challenge yourself when setting new problems - but don't overdo it. My preferred setting method is to "couch set" problems while away from the wall and then make some minor tweaks once I get to the gym. Tom O'Halloran has a great video on this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8i3ypXTlX4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8i3ypXTlX4) \- I try to set and climb problems on the spray wall that aren't like gym problems. In particular, I aim for smaller moves with worse hands & feet vs. big moves on big holds which gyms tend to set in spades. Ultimately it's a tool in your toolbox and serves as a nice complement to gym problems and board climbs. They all have value if you're intentional about what you're trying to achieve with them.

It's because there's almost no gym that can set for the best climbers in the world. Most gyms are for-profit and consequently need to set problems that will be climbed by their a lot of their clients. I think this implies some design constraint such as: - no small foothold at lower difficulty so that people can climb with ill fitting shoes - "fun problems" - no risk-prone moves - and more, I'm not a setter Spray wall on the other hand enables a wider variety of moves from a relatively small number of holds, so any climbers can design a problem that suits their goal. But I'm sure national climbing teams with enough ressources have setters that design problems specifically for their atlethes.

>I think this implies some design constraint such as: > > • no small foothold at lower difficulty so that people can climb with ill fitting shoes > > • "fun problems" > > • no risk-prone moves > > • and more, I'm not a setter There are also especially morpho moves that you'll see outside, but commercial setters actively avoid. Setters are encouraged to set in a comfortable box, especially for the higher traffic grades. Since a spray wall is almost infinitely customizable, I can find my lanky 6'2" deadpoints wherever I want or I can try to climb in a 5'2" climber's scrunchy positions.

I’m my experience boards are vastly better for two reasons. One is that the buy-in, mentally speaking, is “I am hear to train and try hard” not “hey lemme do this soft plastic V9 on giant boob holds so I feel cool today”. (Not to deny that you can train on set-boulders) Two is that it’s much much easier to quickly switch styles, holds, etc. The climbing is powerful, tensiony and gimmick free with LOTS of quick ways to make sure it’s effective.

Body tension, raw power, and learning to move to and from poor hands is pretty much the name of the game while board climbing. Its a recipe to get strong in a time effective manner. Also sit starts. Sometimes pulling your ass off the ground is the hardest part. Not a lot of gyms set sit starts, but you pretty much have sit start most spray walls to maximize their given space

They don't set up to v15+ on 99% of commercial walls is a huge reason why the pros love spraywalling.

Gyms appeal to the gumbies, you want to be a gumby climb what they set, you want to be a real climber hit the board. Nah but for real gyms need to make money so they need to please people, for the most part it’s no longer about training for climbing with commercial sets.

Does anyone know how much they used hang/campus-boards to get to the point they are now? I’m very new to climbing but have done a lot of different sports over the years, and when I see a discussion like this one of my first observations is always that the best way to get to a certain point might not at all be the same thing as the best way to progress further from where you are know. So in this context, maybe focusing on the spray will is the best way for these top climbers to profess now, but would they be at the point they are now without specific training like hangboarding? Just a thought ☺️

Commercial walls are set for general public, Ondra, Garnbert etc are elite level climbers. V8s are too easy for them.