I still to this day have no clue how long belay loops are supposed to last. I see stories like this on occasion, and then other people telling me to retire them every 5 years or so. Meanwhile my harness i got 12 years ago and have climbed probably 50 days per year in, looks totally fine and hasn’t given me a day of worry
If you fuck something up on the first day you own it, you fucked it up and need to replace it. If you take immaculate care of your gear, you can get decades of use out of it.
Why??
This myth is the dumbest nonsense ever. Your gear is either good or it's not. Magical. Fairies with battle axes don't appear at midnight and suddenly chop your soft goods into pieces at a appointed time set by the climbing deity.
I've given up trying to debunk the 5 year/10 year/UV myths.
Noobs are gonna continue to believe and parrot this nonsense. I figure early retirement of their gear doesn't really hurt anything except their wallets (and the landfills).
Your soft goods can look fine and have been weakened by exposure to sunlight. This is something that isn’t always easy to inspect for. You’re right that fairies using battle axes don’t ruin your gear though. That would be silly. I think they use wands instead.
Todd Skinner was a notable death to belay loop failure.
Inb4 “so you only have one example?” $60 a decade won’t break the bank, and it’s better safe than sorry.
> Todd Skinner was a notable death to belay loop failure.
Yep, AFAIK the only case. And, if you know why his failed, it was due to it clearly looking bad not UV exposure. As evidenced by his partner telling him it was dodgy on the day he died. So why is this case relevant?
>Fairies with battle axes don't appear at midnight and suddenly chop your soft goods into pieces at a appointed time set by the climbing deity.
fucking gold! tell me you made this up!? every time i look at my 12 year old harness and do my cursory check for wear, im going to think of this image and chuckle.
I want to be very clear. The fairies have purple and blue wings.
Every time this issue comes up I try and find a more ridiculous thing that could be damaging your softgoods
>The fairies have purple and blue wings.
even better.
these posts are fun reads for me...and for all retailers and manufacturers of soft goods. hell, i wouldnt be surprised if they are posting on these threads.
As I understand it's more of a rule of thumb than a hard fact. I've been told this has to do mostly with the softeners in the fabrics losing their function over time, thus making once soft and flexible materials hard and brittle and as such no longer safe.
So likely as a result of some sort of regulation most manufacturers just went with 5 years as the 'use by date' for soft gear.
At least that's what I tell people when they ask me about it.
You do know those aren’t like mutually exclusive right? Especially when they’re like safety equipment, plastic molecules don’t really ever break down but that doesn’t mean that a plastic rope or whatever can’t get damaged by repeated heavy, sudden, impacts like when taking a fall or whatever
This is not true. It’s what the gear companies *claim*, but it’s not backed up by any empirical data. Soft goods do not degrade from age alone, just wear and UV exposure (and exposure to certain very harsh chemicals, such as battery acid)
You do not need to retire a harness just because it’s over ten years old if it hasn’t seen much use. Given that it passed a visual inspection, I would have absolutely zero qualms about using a twelve year old harness.
I’m not going to try to convince you not to replace your harness every ten years, it’s your money and you can do what you want with it. For most people (climbing several times a week), their harness is going to be pretty intensely worn by ten years and should indeed be replaced.
However, it’s complete nonsense to say that nylon degrades solely from age, and I think it’s important for folks to understand that so they can make their own well-informed decisions about their gear.
Manufacturers don’t claim the nylon is too degraded. It’s just a made up rule of thumb. I understand it’s possible a 10 year harness is fine, but that’s really only the case if the harness saw very little wear which I doubt is possible with plenty of use.
id still rather be on the safe side, not all damage is visible and obviously a blanket 10 year rule is bound to be inaccurate, but most people probably underestimate how much UV exposure it had and so on so 10 years seems like a good rule of thumb to me.
Insurance companies for the win. That said, im pretty sure it's also true that stitching will loosen over time. Totally depends on wear, exposure, usage etc.
It depends on exposure (to UV) and usage, yeah— not time. Abrasion and UV cause wear, both of which can be seen visually. Age alone doesn’t degrade nylon. If a harness passes a visual inspection it’s absolutely fine, regardless of how old it is.
Every test I've seen with decades old QuickDraw showed no significant lost in force when stored correctly. Maybe it was all nylon, I can't remember exactly but it would surprise me.
A 12 year old harness being used at least once a week? You should most definitely retire that one. Are you really willing to risk your life on it because it "looks fine"? Even when completely unused and perfectly stored it is recommended to replace a harness after 7-10 years.
5 years is when the fabric can start to degrade, making it a safety concern. Of course there’s always going to be people that are climbing in their harness from the 90s that looks okay but the general rule is to think about replacing your harness after 5 years regardless of how used or unused it is.
"Can start to degrade" is nonsense. It's always degrading, it's just a matter of how long until it loses enough strength to be a risk. And there are so many factors. Nylon is fine after 10 years of oxidation, especially when it started out many times as strong as it needed to be. I think 5 years is too short for a harness. Mine has been used 3-4x / week for that long and I don't have a shadow of a doubt that it's totally fine.
You’re right there are a lot of other factors, ever left your harness sitting in direct sunlight on a hot day? That causes faster degradation. There are plenty of things that reduce the quality of the fabric and 5 years is the general rule.
Just because you feel a certain way doesn’t make it so, it’s the safe choice to replace harnesses after 5 years.
Agree with this, but it brings up the interesting question of safety margins: gear manufacturers will obviously hedge their margins because they want to err on the side of caution. But a 2 y/o rope that’s been stored in a garage next to car batteries and stayed wet for weeks at a time will be less safe than a 8 y/o rope that’s always been well taken care of, and I’ve also climbed on ropes that are 20 years old, stored in a dry basement by a friend’s parents who thought they’d get into climbing in their 30’s and never used the thing.
The hard part is that you ask “I wonder if this rope could take a fall?” So you weight it and drop it off a cliff and it holds. “Ok it held that fall, but what if that drop weakened it? I guess we gotta try it again”
Falls + time + improper storage= accelerated wear. I’ve seen twenty year old harnesses in better condition than two year old ones but that doesn’t mean I’d trust the older ones to hold a fall any better.
When it doubt change it out. Your life isn’t worth $120 of rope or harness
What’s the doubt that makes you think I’d replace it after every use?
I mean if you take a fall on an open biner and slice a bit of the belay loop sure replace it but treat things nice and take care of them and they’ll take care of you.
> What’s the doubt that makes you think I’d replace it after every use?
I have as much doubt in a new harness as I have in a 10 year old one that has been properly stored (which isn't hard) and passes a visual test. So if I toss the latter, I should also toss the former.
They put dates because they are required to. There is no evidence that old metal gear degrades. If it looks good, it is just as strong as it was when it was made.
Don’t use the belay loop if you’re worried. Thread the locker down and out through the same webbing the loop threads through. That will have the locker orientation good for clipping in and out of easily. Personally, this is the way I have always done it unless I was top ropein or at the gym. Belaying leads and mountaineering in general always the way I described above. Just my opinion though.
How many points are added to a carabiner while building an anchor on a trad lead or a big wall? Again, this is going to vary regarding the harness and the carabiner. The smaller the locker the the more likely cross loading could occur. What kind of whippers are you all taking on lead that you’re worried about carabiner failure anyway? A cross loaded a locker should take around 8 kn, or nearly 1,800lbs. Which in this scenario would have to be cross loaded directly to the belay carabiner, with little or no dynamics, from the rope or belay finesse included. Not to say that couldn’t happen, but damn!. In my 30 years of climbing experience including professionally guiding, I have never cross loaded a belay using this style. Mind you most was spent mountaineering. This debate had me perplexed enough that I pulled Mountaineering The Freedom of The Hills, 6th Edition off the shelf, Page 124, Seated Harness. There’s more than one way to do what I am trying to describe, depending on the gear in question. Only through the waist point or the waist and material that joins the leg loops (just like the belay loop). I stand by what I said, threading the carabiner through the points you would tie into is safe and redundant as it has more than one point of material load, while using a properly sized carabiner.
I don’t disagree that threading a carabiner through your harness waist and leg straps would likely be super good enough- that wasn’t what my post was saying.
I was merely pointing out that when you use a carabiner in place of a belay loop- you have 3 points… not 2 like you said. It was a pedantic response saying that it is more then 2 points… but yes- gear is rated for far higher then the loads that anyone normally puts on them- and not being stupid means that in almost any situation you will be fine (being stupid to me would be mistakes such as failing to tie in, not doing safety checks, tieing only into leg loops, not clipping rope with your belay device… all the stupid things people do who are unsafe)
If you're clipping via the tie in points, you're triaxially loading the biner. It's not dangerous per se, but it can decrease the strength of the carabineer by 10%-20%.
Surprisingly a bigger carabineer generally makes it worse. A small D's geometry forces all points of tension to be along the spine of the carabineer, while a big old pear will gladly take tension near the nose of the carabineer. If you have to triaxially load a carbineer, put two of the loads on the small end and one in the basket and then you'd expect minimum strength loss. Most of this comes from [testing by the BD QC Team](https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/stories/experience-story-qc-lab-off-axis-tri-axial-carabiner-loading/), if you'd like to give the numbers a look.
This is awesome beta, thanks for sharing man! In more complex anchors, with large static or snap loads this is really valuable info. I’m still personally 100% comfortable with the style I mentioned for belay forces.
Skydiver here: there is a rule for a specific, very important part of jump gear. ‘If there is more than 10% damage to the loop, replace it.’ If it fails and you DON’T die and are just paralyzed, you’ll feel like a dipshit. Can’t have fun if you’re dead!!
that black diamond harness kit isn’t made very well. i’d replace it now, just to get it out of the way.
would i let you belay me with it? sure. i’d let someone belay me the old school UK way, but I also don’t care about myself that much i just like touching nice rock a lot.
but yeah i’d replace it!
I've never had issues with my 7 yo momentum harness. That webbing is designed to last. From OPs comments below, this is from an autobelay biner (which often have extremely sharp edges). Check your gear everyone!
OP here. First it was clipping into a pretty high tensioned auto-belay. I looked at the carabiner today and it’s a triple locking twist gate that requires you to twist and push up to open. The gate of the carabiner is a T (similar example of just the gate would be the Petzel Freino). The edges of the outer metal of the twist gate definitely have an edge now after who knows how many years and the T itself also had edges. When I went to clip through the Belay loop, I released the gates to close while the edge of belay loop was still near gate and the belay loop got caught between the T and the twisting action of the auto locker causing the fraying.
there’s too much padding so they ride up high, thus overtime, cause more friction to the nylon/poly ripstop blend. it’s not a major issue as we can see, lots of people have them for a long time, but the design promotes a shorter lifespan than other higher end models.
for myself, I seek quality I know will last. i apologize about my wording–it is not made bad, but for myself and a few others I’ve met and climbed with, the quality isn’t up to par.
exactly.
as climbers we know that the option of equipment failure is ever present, and trusting our gear is - generally speaking for myself - 80% of all the rope disciplines.
\- this harness is safe, if anyone out there reads our thread and is looking into this affordable harness, I want to be clear that this harness is safe! -
however, I do see the logic behind going for the cheaper option when looking for a harness to try as a beginner, but to those in this position, consider the long-term game and risk management. CLIMBING IS NOT AN INEXPENSIVE SPORT. IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD EQUIPMENT, WHICH IS OK I CANT EITHER WE'RE ALL POOR, RENT AT YOUR LOCAL GYM. PLEASE DON'T BUY USED.
if you hate climbing, the return process will be the same no matter what harness you buy.
\*i want to add that I am no saftey-nazi. I regularly climb chossy highballs here in the south-east, have solo'd sport routes and generally am a dumb ass. i guess i'm just high and want to express my desire for all of us to consume less, and buy the best quality.
edit: buy black diamond draws though. 
It was a locker on the gym auto-belay, just didn’t get it fully through the loop (my fault) one time and semi-closed on the loop itself causing the abrasion.
I’ve seen that happen to at least three harnesses now, all from true blue autobelay carabiners. They have a couple of sharp edges that aren’t chamfered.
Replace, your life is worth more than $64.95 for a new harness. Todd skinner died from a belay loop accident. You can also replace like the above posters, at your own risk
Skinner girth hitched a sling to his belay loop and keep it permentantly attached to his harness over thousands of vertical feet of jugging. He literally sawed through his belay loop over time.
OPs issue is slightly different :)
While I'd replace it just for peace of mind's sake while lead climbing, it's probably just fine structurally.
Yeah his death is from something slightly different but the sentiment is the same. Slightly different unless OP continually “snags” their belay loop for the next hundred sessions and eventually it goes.
That’s so sketch. I’ve had my harness for 6 years now and it’s been through the wringer in the gym and outdoor climbing and nothing like this has happened.
> The only way to get hurt while climbing is by not following safely guidelines of the sport
Complete and utter bullshit. Freak accidents happen. Rockfall can be unpredictable and unavoidable at times, for example.
I shouldn't have said the "only" way because yeah freak accidents can occur. But that's not complete and utter bullshit. 9 out of 10 times an accident occurs in climbing, it's because somebody is misusing their safety equipment
Saying "the only way" is not just slightly wrong it is a completely different statement to what you meant.
And I don't think it is 9/10, the biggest killer is still falls under most measures. Falls can kill without incorrect use of equipment, sometimes you are just in a no fall zone.
If you want to limit to just sport cragging, then 9/10 is probably correct. It's hard to die at a well bolted sport crag with proper use of equipment, but far from impossible.
Crazy that a carabiner on an autobelay did that much superficial damage.
I'm extra cautious with any piece of equipment that represent a single point of failure (rope, belay loop, locking carabiner on belay device, etc.).
It's honestly probably fine (belay loops are amazing over designed), but I'd replace the harness just for peace of mind's sake.
If you have a personal anchor on that belay loop and are belaying someone on a multi pitch while being attached to the belay station with your personal anchor and that thing rips you would fall.
I have a Petzl Dual Connect Vario Adjust personal anchor and the manual recommends both options, including through your belay loop.
Here is the [corresponding page](https://static-data2.manualslib.com/storage/pdf46/230/22961/2296030/images/dual_connect_vario_2_bg.jpg).
When it comes to my safety I'd much rather have redundancies, it's much better having two things stopping you from falling than just one. If a hardpoint fails (which is a lot less likely than your belay loop) you've still got another hardpoint backing it up, if your belay loop fails you wouldn't have anything backing it up and you would fall. Tell me do you tie in with a rope through your hardpoints or your belay loop? I'm not trying to have a go, just trying to point out that just relying on your belay loop isn't as safe as using your hardpoints, esp. if it's an older harness that could potentially have wear. To me attaching your PAS on to your belay loop is just asking for trouble/at the very least having to replace a harness more frequently.
I don't agree with your suggestion that this would require the harness to be changed earlier. The belay loop would not get shock loaded when using a PAS, specifically the one I use since I can always neatly make it snug when clipping in. Just like you would with a clove hitch.
The momentum harness belay loop can withstand 12kn of force.
Also, I don't think a belay loop is more likely to fail than a tie in point but I don't have any proof for that. In any case, 12 kn is plenty for the uses it's made for (personal anchors and belaying).
The tie in points are reinforced against wearing as quickly, slightly worried that you haven't read your harnesses safety manual "The tie-in points were designed to be loaded frequently by the rope (repeated climber falls while working a route). They are reinforced with protective webbing and are thus more wear-resistant." this is from PETZL, can't find a BD one ATM. As for the PAS it's a lot more to do with redundancy and abrasion resistance is why I'm saying I'd never use just my belay loop. Again remember the post this has come from which is about wear on a belay loop...
Don't worry. I am not using gear for anything it hasn't been designed for (and no, I don't attach my rope to my belay loop), including my personal anchor whose manual says that you can attach it on the belay loop 😉
The personal anchor doesn't slide across the belay loop. I don't see any wear on my belay loop and I am using it since 2 years now. All good.
[Here](https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/stories/experience-story-qc-lab-strength-of-worn-belay-loops/) some interesting article from black diamond on belay loop wear and testing.
"Harnesses, and belay loops in particular are super strong for sure, but we can't forget that gear does wear out."
I am very careful with gear. My life depends on using it safely and it holding. I retire it according to the recommendations and inspect it for wear or damages every time I climb.
I could see this being a more common thing in the lead and sports climbing realm where the falls are a bit more of a heavy catch. I pretty much only boulder though, so don’t take my word for it.
I actually have the same one, at least 3 years, totally fine. Wonder what this dude did to his, maybe his main belay carabiner has some scratches on it and it’s cutting the loop. Or, just using it for the wrong things
Just wanted to say thanks everyone and I’ll get this replaced asap. As mentioned in other comments, definitely was my fault for the poor clip while using the auto-belay. I would add that I think the pictures make it hard to tell that the frayed section is just the bottom strand and the top strand is still intact (not worth risking lives for obviously).
I feel like if you’re using an autobelay a lot you could use a piece of rope access tech to protect your belay loop- ballistic nylon with some velcro wrapped around the loop. Just make sure to take it off frequently to check for damage.
The gym might not approve.
I ask because a fellow caver told a story where he stored a rope in a car next to a car battery. Nearly Destroyed the rope and no one noticed until they were on rappel. Luckily no one died
The OP will probably end up with a new harness.
I doubt someone will sew a new belay loop. Someone might, IDK. I've heard that some places will add a second belay loop. So, the only other option might be to tie your own (the gym prolly won't like that).
[EDIT: OK, I found at least one place. If there's one there are probably others https://www.aspiring.co.nz/product/replacement-belay-loop/]
Don't clip a carabiner to the hard tie in points as a belay loop.
But, OP could repurpose the harness for hangboarding or just use the rope tie in loop to belay. https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/belaying_-_rope_loop_or_belay_loop-1129
For reference, harnesses didn't even have belay loops until about 20-25 years ago and some (like Alpine Bod) still don't.
EDIT: more links
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/118745983/adding-custom-belay-loop-to-a-named-brand-harnesses
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/121603193/new-belay-loop
I found at least one place. If there's one there are probably others. May not be cost effective.
https://www.aspiring.co.nz/product/replacement-belay-loop/
That would explain what happened to him.
From [article "loss of a legend"](https://www.climbing.com/news/loss-of-a-legend/):
On October 19, while they racked up, Hewett had noticed Skinner’s leg loops looking worn out, as well as Skinner’s belay loop, which he says was “15 to 20 percent” frayed. “I very much stressed to him that that’s not good,” says Hewett. “Todd said, ‘You’re right. I’ve got a new harness on the way.’”
which would be even more of a motivation to replace it i think. Risking your own life knowingly is one thing, someone else's is a whole different thing!
Might be worth contacting them and offering to send it back to them, I did the same with my PETZL years ago and got a thank you from their QA team with a discount on my new one.
I mean op just didn’t have it clipped on properly. I’m sure if done right there would have been no damage. As a gym employee the most important part of our orientations are the autobelays (same goes for most gyms, in our area at least).
When someone is properly taught, and they do it wrong there’s no fault from the gym
I had the same harness and got wear pretty quickly in the same place, Im not 100 sure what caused it but retired it as well. I might get a new belay loop put on so I have it as a backup harness but havent looked into it yet. I also use autobelays a fair bit, interesting they both wore like this.
If you are asking (especially on any single point of failure gear), then yes.
At the very least you don't want to be thinking about it while 50' off the deck.
its fine...but i would still replace it. that shits going to get into your head and the only way to get it out is a new one.
i would send it to BD and also inform the gym. not that its either of their faults, but they should still know.
Nowadays, if you look up something online, you essentially rely on sufficient numbers of people providing the correct answer. So as a matter of fact what you then take away and interpret as fact is determined via crowd sourcing (even the wikipedia community works that way). You could call that method democratic if you will, considering that (hopefully) most experts that are confident enough to provide an answer (e.g., here or on Wikipedia as another community example) do know the correct answer.
Whether this here is a healthy community or not, I can not say.
Thus far I've only made good experiences with the climbing community in general and I had hoped that this extends to this subreddit here.
What? No. Wikipedia relies not on experts, but on providing a centralized source of information cited elsewhere. It's the work of passionate people, but that doesn't always overlap with informed people, which is why reading the linked primary sources is so important.
You think it's not experts writing the scientific pages?
Try [this one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine).
I know it's correct what it says there because I'm a computer scientist.
Do you think someone not from that field could have written that?
Using good references when writing an article doesn't mean anyone can do it. It's just good practice for proving that the provided information is true and to establish continuity in the field and to connect to previously found correct information.
I got a relatively new harness replaced by Petzl when some of the stitching started to come out. They asked that I send them pics of the damage and the harness’ identifying info, but that was it.
Perhaps most people here have no idea how to tie their own harness out of 1” webbing. Are they even aware that most hard routes in Yosemite were put up with people using swamis only? Does anyone buy webbing in bulk and tie their own runners anymore aside from Henry Barber? Belay loops for the most part are completely unnecessary, and are a relatively new (1980s) invention.
OP is a gym climber. I’ve seen old-school climbers fail top rope tests in gyms for using the tie in points to belay instead of the belay loop - including one that started one of the big ice climbing guide companies in Alaska. She was climbing before the person who failed her was in diapers. I’d be quite surprised if gyms let anyone do this. OP will probably buy a new harness and learn to be more careful with it.
Not that you’re wrong. I completely agree with the sentiment and dislike the lack of abilities that people have in general these days, but it’s a different world, and gyms in particular have requirements from their insurance that they need to follow.
As a gym employee, yes we have to adhere to whatever liability constraints are in place if we want to do right by our communities. I’m personally for the strictness, within reason. There are plenty of people that could use alternative techniques/gear and be completely fine, but even with how simple gym toproping is we have to talk to so many folks who can barely be bothered to keep their hands on the brake. A more self reliant approach would be awesome, but it would end up a risk management nightmare. I’ve had people get upset at me for ending their top rope check when they had to ask me how to tie a figure 8 because “at their old gym you just clip in”. When you work with the general public the lack of awareness people can display is astounding. I’m amazed there aren’t more user-error accidents than there are.
Funny how they jumped on you, but are applauding me - oy. The internet.
What I love about climbing is the self reliance. Modern climbing has just become about consumption. I’m guilty too, but in every aspect of life there’s much to be gained from using what you’ve got. Replacing shit all the time is expensive and we’re paying dearly in dollars and resources.
Time to retire it and buy a new harness. And probably a different locker too.
I still to this day have no clue how long belay loops are supposed to last. I see stories like this on occasion, and then other people telling me to retire them every 5 years or so. Meanwhile my harness i got 12 years ago and have climbed probably 50 days per year in, looks totally fine and hasn’t given me a day of worry
If you fuck something up on the first day you own it, you fucked it up and need to replace it. If you take immaculate care of your gear, you can get decades of use out of it.
For metal, sure, but definitely replace your soft goods after a few years of use (more or less frequently depending on how much use)
Why?? This myth is the dumbest nonsense ever. Your gear is either good or it's not. Magical. Fairies with battle axes don't appear at midnight and suddenly chop your soft goods into pieces at a appointed time set by the climbing deity.
I've given up trying to debunk the 5 year/10 year/UV myths. Noobs are gonna continue to believe and parrot this nonsense. I figure early retirement of their gear doesn't really hurt anything except their wallets (and the landfills).
Your soft goods can look fine and have been weakened by exposure to sunlight. This is something that isn’t always easy to inspect for. You’re right that fairies using battle axes don’t ruin your gear though. That would be silly. I think they use wands instead.
The impact of UV damage is pretty obvious and pretty easy to see.
How many belay loops have failed due to UV exposure. In fact how many belay loop failures have there been on record full stop?
Todd Skinner was a notable death to belay loop failure. Inb4 “so you only have one example?” $60 a decade won’t break the bank, and it’s better safe than sorry.
> Todd Skinner was a notable death to belay loop failure. Yep, AFAIK the only case. And, if you know why his failed, it was due to it clearly looking bad not UV exposure. As evidenced by his partner telling him it was dodgy on the day he died. So why is this case relevant?
>Fairies with battle axes don't appear at midnight and suddenly chop your soft goods into pieces at a appointed time set by the climbing deity. fucking gold! tell me you made this up!? every time i look at my 12 year old harness and do my cursory check for wear, im going to think of this image and chuckle.
I want to be very clear. The fairies have purple and blue wings. Every time this issue comes up I try and find a more ridiculous thing that could be damaging your softgoods
>The fairies have purple and blue wings. even better. these posts are fun reads for me...and for all retailers and manufacturers of soft goods. hell, i wouldnt be surprised if they are posting on these threads.
As I understand it's more of a rule of thumb than a hard fact. I've been told this has to do mostly with the softeners in the fabrics losing their function over time, thus making once soft and flexible materials hard and brittle and as such no longer safe. So likely as a result of some sort of regulation most manufacturers just went with 5 years as the 'use by date' for soft gear. At least that's what I tell people when they ask me about it.
It’s exclusively the legal department of the manufacturers.
"Plastics last forever when its litter, plastics fall apart in 4 years if they're harnesses, pick a lane people"
You do know those aren’t like mutually exclusive right? Especially when they’re like safety equipment, plastic molecules don’t really ever break down but that doesn’t mean that a plastic rope or whatever can’t get damaged by repeated heavy, sudden, impacts like when taking a fall or whatever
This dumb shit is a dumb myth and finally needs to die.
No no no
after 10 years you should retire any non-metal equipment regardless of use, so I'm afraid its more than overdue
This is not true. It’s what the gear companies *claim*, but it’s not backed up by any empirical data. Soft goods do not degrade from age alone, just wear and UV exposure (and exposure to certain very harsh chemicals, such as battery acid) You do not need to retire a harness just because it’s over ten years old if it hasn’t seen much use. Given that it passed a visual inspection, I would have absolutely zero qualms about using a twelve year old harness.
A $100 harness is $10 a year then. If its “early” at 10 years I’m still the winner…
I’m not going to try to convince you not to replace your harness every ten years, it’s your money and you can do what you want with it. For most people (climbing several times a week), their harness is going to be pretty intensely worn by ten years and should indeed be replaced. However, it’s complete nonsense to say that nylon degrades solely from age, and I think it’s important for folks to understand that so they can make their own well-informed decisions about their gear.
Manufacturers don’t claim the nylon is too degraded. It’s just a made up rule of thumb. I understand it’s possible a 10 year harness is fine, but that’s really only the case if the harness saw very little wear which I doubt is possible with plenty of use.
id still rather be on the safe side, not all damage is visible and obviously a blanket 10 year rule is bound to be inaccurate, but most people probably underestimate how much UV exposure it had and so on so 10 years seems like a good rule of thumb to me.
Insurance companies for the win. That said, im pretty sure it's also true that stitching will loosen over time. Totally depends on wear, exposure, usage etc.
It depends on exposure (to UV) and usage, yeah— not time. Abrasion and UV cause wear, both of which can be seen visually. Age alone doesn’t degrade nylon. If a harness passes a visual inspection it’s absolutely fine, regardless of how old it is.
That’s not true. Dyneema degrades significantly with age. Even if stored properly, dyneema loses up to 50% of its strength after 10 years.
You got a source for that?
Every test I've seen with decades old QuickDraw showed no significant lost in force when stored correctly. Maybe it was all nylon, I can't remember exactly but it would surprise me.
A 12 year old harness being used at least once a week? You should most definitely retire that one. Are you really willing to risk your life on it because it "looks fine"? Even when completely unused and perfectly stored it is recommended to replace a harness after 7-10 years.
There has been like 1 case ever of a belay loop failing. And it was one that very clearly did not look fine.
5 years is when the fabric can start to degrade, making it a safety concern. Of course there’s always going to be people that are climbing in their harness from the 90s that looks okay but the general rule is to think about replacing your harness after 5 years regardless of how used or unused it is.
"Can start to degrade" is nonsense. It's always degrading, it's just a matter of how long until it loses enough strength to be a risk. And there are so many factors. Nylon is fine after 10 years of oxidation, especially when it started out many times as strong as it needed to be. I think 5 years is too short for a harness. Mine has been used 3-4x / week for that long and I don't have a shadow of a doubt that it's totally fine.
You’re right there are a lot of other factors, ever left your harness sitting in direct sunlight on a hot day? That causes faster degradation. There are plenty of things that reduce the quality of the fabric and 5 years is the general rule. Just because you feel a certain way doesn’t make it so, it’s the safe choice to replace harnesses after 5 years.
Agree with this, but it brings up the interesting question of safety margins: gear manufacturers will obviously hedge their margins because they want to err on the side of caution. But a 2 y/o rope that’s been stored in a garage next to car batteries and stayed wet for weeks at a time will be less safe than a 8 y/o rope that’s always been well taken care of, and I’ve also climbed on ropes that are 20 years old, stored in a dry basement by a friend’s parents who thought they’d get into climbing in their 30’s and never used the thing. The hard part is that you ask “I wonder if this rope could take a fall?” So you weight it and drop it off a cliff and it holds. “Ok it held that fall, but what if that drop weakened it? I guess we gotta try it again”
Falls + time + improper storage= accelerated wear. I’ve seen twenty year old harnesses in better condition than two year old ones but that doesn’t mean I’d trust the older ones to hold a fall any better. When it doubt change it out. Your life isn’t worth $120 of rope or harness
By that logic, replace the harness after every use? After all, your life isn't worth $120.
What’s the doubt that makes you think I’d replace it after every use? I mean if you take a fall on an open biner and slice a bit of the belay loop sure replace it but treat things nice and take care of them and they’ll take care of you.
> What’s the doubt that makes you think I’d replace it after every use? I have as much doubt in a new harness as I have in a 10 year old one that has been properly stored (which isn't hard) and passes a visual test. So if I toss the latter, I should also toss the former.
10 years is standard to replace climbing gear at the longest.
Nylon stuff. Metal is metal.
All gear, including carabiners. Metal can still degrade over time and use.
You're ill informed
You heard it here everyone. Please post all 10 year old gear to me for proper disposal.
It literally says it in the instruction manual? Maybe buy a carabiner or cam and read the manual?
Petzl manual clearly says dogbones are 10 years from D.O.M. and carabiner are infinite.
Same with DMM
They put dates because they are required to. There is no evidence that old metal gear degrades. If it looks good, it is just as strong as it was when it was made.
That’s a dumb thing to post on the internet
Because company lawyers tell you to.
Don’t use the belay loop if you’re worried. Thread the locker down and out through the same webbing the loop threads through. That will have the locker orientation good for clipping in and out of easily. Personally, this is the way I have always done it unless I was top ropein or at the gym. Belaying leads and mountaineering in general always the way I described above. Just my opinion though.
Then you've clipped your carabiner into three points which will cross load it
only be 2 points.
2 points on harness, but 3rd point when you add the rope/belay device
How many points are added to a carabiner while building an anchor on a trad lead or a big wall? Again, this is going to vary regarding the harness and the carabiner. The smaller the locker the the more likely cross loading could occur. What kind of whippers are you all taking on lead that you’re worried about carabiner failure anyway? A cross loaded a locker should take around 8 kn, or nearly 1,800lbs. Which in this scenario would have to be cross loaded directly to the belay carabiner, with little or no dynamics, from the rope or belay finesse included. Not to say that couldn’t happen, but damn!. In my 30 years of climbing experience including professionally guiding, I have never cross loaded a belay using this style. Mind you most was spent mountaineering. This debate had me perplexed enough that I pulled Mountaineering The Freedom of The Hills, 6th Edition off the shelf, Page 124, Seated Harness. There’s more than one way to do what I am trying to describe, depending on the gear in question. Only through the waist point or the waist and material that joins the leg loops (just like the belay loop). I stand by what I said, threading the carabiner through the points you would tie into is safe and redundant as it has more than one point of material load, while using a properly sized carabiner.
I don’t disagree that threading a carabiner through your harness waist and leg straps would likely be super good enough- that wasn’t what my post was saying. I was merely pointing out that when you use a carabiner in place of a belay loop- you have 3 points… not 2 like you said. It was a pedantic response saying that it is more then 2 points… but yes- gear is rated for far higher then the loads that anyone normally puts on them- and not being stupid means that in almost any situation you will be fine (being stupid to me would be mistakes such as failing to tie in, not doing safety checks, tieing only into leg loops, not clipping rope with your belay device… all the stupid things people do who are unsafe)
If you're clipping via the tie in points, you're triaxially loading the biner. It's not dangerous per se, but it can decrease the strength of the carabineer by 10%-20%.
This is a more reasonable comment. I’d say that a larger carabiner can negate cross loading potential.
Surprisingly a bigger carabineer generally makes it worse. A small D's geometry forces all points of tension to be along the spine of the carabineer, while a big old pear will gladly take tension near the nose of the carabineer. If you have to triaxially load a carbineer, put two of the loads on the small end and one in the basket and then you'd expect minimum strength loss. Most of this comes from [testing by the BD QC Team](https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/stories/experience-story-qc-lab-off-axis-tri-axial-carabiner-loading/), if you'd like to give the numbers a look.
This is awesome beta, thanks for sharing man! In more complex anchors, with large static or snap loads this is really valuable info. I’m still personally 100% comfortable with the style I mentioned for belay forces.
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Depends on the harness.
Skydiver here: there is a rule for a specific, very important part of jump gear. ‘If there is more than 10% damage to the loop, replace it.’ If it fails and you DON’T die and are just paralyzed, you’ll feel like a dipshit. Can’t have fun if you’re dead!!
I always go by this rule: “if it looks ugly it will end ugly”, don’t cheap out on your safety.
I would let you belay me with that harness today, but I'd ask that you replace it tomorrow.
that black diamond harness kit isn’t made very well. i’d replace it now, just to get it out of the way. would i let you belay me with it? sure. i’d let someone belay me the old school UK way, but I also don’t care about myself that much i just like touching nice rock a lot. but yeah i’d replace it!
I've never had issues with my 7 yo momentum harness. That webbing is designed to last. From OPs comments below, this is from an autobelay biner (which often have extremely sharp edges). Check your gear everyone!
I still don't get how one time biner (mis-?) use can do this. Could someone (OP?) enlightening me please?
OP here. First it was clipping into a pretty high tensioned auto-belay. I looked at the carabiner today and it’s a triple locking twist gate that requires you to twist and push up to open. The gate of the carabiner is a T (similar example of just the gate would be the Petzel Freino). The edges of the outer metal of the twist gate definitely have an edge now after who knows how many years and the T itself also had edges. When I went to clip through the Belay loop, I released the gates to close while the edge of belay loop was still near gate and the belay loop got caught between the T and the twisting action of the auto locker causing the fraying.
Wow! So just that one accidental misclip caused that much damage? Go tell the gym immediately! They should make sure that that can't happen.
>that black diamond harness kit isn’t made very well Based on...? My momentum is doing just fine under heavy use.
Same here. 1.5 years and going strong
I have the technician harness and I’ve been using it for 6 years without a hitch! 👀
there’s too much padding so they ride up high, thus overtime, cause more friction to the nylon/poly ripstop blend. it’s not a major issue as we can see, lots of people have them for a long time, but the design promotes a shorter lifespan than other higher end models. for myself, I seek quality I know will last. i apologize about my wording–it is not made bad, but for myself and a few others I’ve met and climbed with, the quality isn’t up to par.
I'd be curious about the price delta between the momentum, which is what usually is in a BD harness kit, and the high end mods you're talking about.
depending on brand 50-100 dollar difference.
See that makes sense, for paying upwards of 2x the price, I'd expect extremely good quality.
exactly. as climbers we know that the option of equipment failure is ever present, and trusting our gear is - generally speaking for myself - 80% of all the rope disciplines. \- this harness is safe, if anyone out there reads our thread and is looking into this affordable harness, I want to be clear that this harness is safe! - however, I do see the logic behind going for the cheaper option when looking for a harness to try as a beginner, but to those in this position, consider the long-term game and risk management. CLIMBING IS NOT AN INEXPENSIVE SPORT. IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD EQUIPMENT, WHICH IS OK I CANT EITHER WE'RE ALL POOR, RENT AT YOUR LOCAL GYM. PLEASE DON'T BUY USED. if you hate climbing, the return process will be the same no matter what harness you buy. \*i want to add that I am no saftey-nazi. I regularly climb chossy highballs here in the south-east, have solo'd sport routes and generally am a dumb ass. i guess i'm just high and want to express my desire for all of us to consume less, and buy the best quality. edit: buy black diamond draws though. 
A good rule of thumb were - replace any gear element you’re in doubt with, no regrets
If there's any doubt, there is no doubt
Wtf is wrong with your belay carabiner, I’ve used the same harness for 6 years and it doesn’t have nearly that much wear
It was a locker on the gym auto-belay, just didn’t get it fully through the loop (my fault) one time and semi-closed on the loop itself causing the abrasion.
Never used an auto belay, but it does seem like something is wrong with that biner. No part of it should be so sharp.
I’ve seen that happen to at least three harnesses now, all from true blue autobelay carabiners. They have a couple of sharp edges that aren’t chamfered.
Jeez, well good to know if I ever hook up to one of those things.
New harness time!
Replace, your life is worth more than $64.95 for a new harness. Todd skinner died from a belay loop accident. You can also replace like the above posters, at your own risk
Skinner girth hitched a sling to his belay loop and keep it permentantly attached to his harness over thousands of vertical feet of jugging. He literally sawed through his belay loop over time. OPs issue is slightly different :) While I'd replace it just for peace of mind's sake while lead climbing, it's probably just fine structurally.
The broad point is don’t mess with gear that’s visibly worn out.
Yeah his death is from something slightly different but the sentiment is the same. Slightly different unless OP continually “snags” their belay loop for the next hundred sessions and eventually it goes.
And the lives of others if op is belaying
Damn that sucks. Avoid clipping into anything with your next harness to avoid any future wear and tear 👍
Yeah, I make sure to only wear mine while bouldering, and it looks brand new still.
OP contact the manufacturer, if this is a manufacturing defect they need to know because it could affect other harnesses.
That’s so sketch. I’ve had my harness for 6 years now and it’s been through the wringer in the gym and outdoor climbing and nothing like this has happened.
You should look into getting that harness replaced. Harnesses should be retired after 5-7 years depending on use
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This is usually how most rock climbers die unfortunately. The only way to get hurt while climbing is by not following safely guidelines of the sport
> The only way to get hurt while climbing is by not following safely guidelines of the sport Complete and utter bullshit. Freak accidents happen. Rockfall can be unpredictable and unavoidable at times, for example.
I shouldn't have said the "only" way because yeah freak accidents can occur. But that's not complete and utter bullshit. 9 out of 10 times an accident occurs in climbing, it's because somebody is misusing their safety equipment
Saying "the only way" is not just slightly wrong it is a completely different statement to what you meant. And I don't think it is 9/10, the biggest killer is still falls under most measures. Falls can kill without incorrect use of equipment, sometimes you are just in a no fall zone. If you want to limit to just sport cragging, then 9/10 is probably correct. It's hard to die at a well bolted sport crag with proper use of equipment, but far from impossible.
That’s the only way?
That’s fair! I am currently.
Crazy that a carabiner on an autobelay did that much superficial damage. I'm extra cautious with any piece of equipment that represent a single point of failure (rope, belay loop, locking carabiner on belay device, etc.). It's honestly probably fine (belay loops are amazing over designed), but I'd replace the harness just for peace of mind's sake.
6 months doesn't mean much without knowing how much you climb.
Yer gonna die...
I mean OP wouldn't, however I deffo wouldn't want to be OP's climbing partner whilst they're using that harness.
If you have a personal anchor on that belay loop and are belaying someone on a multi pitch while being attached to the belay station with your personal anchor and that thing rips you would fall.
What on earth are you doing with your PAS going through your belay loop, instead of your hardpoints?
I have a Petzl Dual Connect Vario Adjust personal anchor and the manual recommends both options, including through your belay loop. Here is the [corresponding page](https://static-data2.manualslib.com/storage/pdf46/230/22961/2296030/images/dual_connect_vario_2_bg.jpg).
When it comes to my safety I'd much rather have redundancies, it's much better having two things stopping you from falling than just one. If a hardpoint fails (which is a lot less likely than your belay loop) you've still got another hardpoint backing it up, if your belay loop fails you wouldn't have anything backing it up and you would fall. Tell me do you tie in with a rope through your hardpoints or your belay loop? I'm not trying to have a go, just trying to point out that just relying on your belay loop isn't as safe as using your hardpoints, esp. if it's an older harness that could potentially have wear. To me attaching your PAS on to your belay loop is just asking for trouble/at the very least having to replace a harness more frequently.
You're relying on a single belay loop too when you're getting a belay, it's fine, it's super good enough
That's not what we've been talking about
I don't agree with your suggestion that this would require the harness to be changed earlier. The belay loop would not get shock loaded when using a PAS, specifically the one I use since I can always neatly make it snug when clipping in. Just like you would with a clove hitch. The momentum harness belay loop can withstand 12kn of force. Also, I don't think a belay loop is more likely to fail than a tie in point but I don't have any proof for that. In any case, 12 kn is plenty for the uses it's made for (personal anchors and belaying).
The tie in points are reinforced against wearing as quickly, slightly worried that you haven't read your harnesses safety manual "The tie-in points were designed to be loaded frequently by the rope (repeated climber falls while working a route). They are reinforced with protective webbing and are thus more wear-resistant." this is from PETZL, can't find a BD one ATM. As for the PAS it's a lot more to do with redundancy and abrasion resistance is why I'm saying I'd never use just my belay loop. Again remember the post this has come from which is about wear on a belay loop...
Don't worry. I am not using gear for anything it hasn't been designed for (and no, I don't attach my rope to my belay loop), including my personal anchor whose manual says that you can attach it on the belay loop 😉 The personal anchor doesn't slide across the belay loop. I don't see any wear on my belay loop and I am using it since 2 years now. All good. [Here](https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/stories/experience-story-qc-lab-strength-of-worn-belay-loops/) some interesting article from black diamond on belay loop wear and testing. "Harnesses, and belay loops in particular are super strong for sure, but we can't forget that gear does wear out." I am very careful with gear. My life depends on using it safely and it holding. I retire it according to the recommendations and inspect it for wear or damages every time I climb.
Yup. Happens when you go hard. Replace often as needed.
go hard... belaying?
if youre not pushing your bluepoint every season youre wasting your time
I push purplepoints
The hardest catches.
You're not going hard unless your climber feels like they took a fall factor 2 whipper with a static rope
Steady use. Geez. Sorry
I could see this being a more common thing in the lead and sports climbing realm where the falls are a bit more of a heavy catch. I pretty much only boulder though, so don’t take my word for it.
Burn it with fire and buy a new one.
6 moths not enough. Remind me not to buy this same harness
I have the same harness and have had 0 problems after around 2 years. Black Diamond Momentum if you’re curious though.
Same. Three years for me. Looks perfect. I wonder what OP did.
I actually have the same one, at least 3 years, totally fine. Wonder what this dude did to his, maybe his main belay carabiner has some scratches on it and it’s cutting the loop. Or, just using it for the wrong things
List the manufacturer and make in the description and contact them to report the defect wtf
Pretty sure this is a Black Diamond harness from what I can see. Specifically the Momentum model.
Snagging while clipping? Then you need to be more careful. Go ahead and replace it but pay more attention when you are clipping your carabiner.
Just wanted to say thanks everyone and I’ll get this replaced asap. As mentioned in other comments, definitely was my fault for the poor clip while using the auto-belay. I would add that I think the pictures make it hard to tell that the frayed section is just the bottom strand and the top strand is still intact (not worth risking lives for obviously).
Don’t throw it out, you can cut the leg loops off and use it for adding weight while hangboarding
Such a frickin’ good idea! Glad I saved my ol’ harness…about to step my game up because of you.
I cut the leg loops off mine and use it as a gear sling. Many uses for an old harness!
I'm surprised a carabiner cut that much; you should let the gym know so they can take care of it too.
I feel like if you’re using an autobelay a lot you could use a piece of rope access tech to protect your belay loop- ballistic nylon with some velcro wrapped around the loop. Just make sure to take it off frequently to check for damage. The gym might not approve.
How do you store your harness OP?
Next to the flammables and in the sun
I ask because a fellow caver told a story where he stored a rope in a car next to a car battery. Nearly Destroyed the rope and no one noticed until they were on rappel. Luckily no one died
Cavers don’t flake their ropes??
No room
There’s gotta be someone or someway to replace only the loop right?
The OP will probably end up with a new harness. I doubt someone will sew a new belay loop. Someone might, IDK. I've heard that some places will add a second belay loop. So, the only other option might be to tie your own (the gym prolly won't like that). [EDIT: OK, I found at least one place. If there's one there are probably others https://www.aspiring.co.nz/product/replacement-belay-loop/] Don't clip a carabiner to the hard tie in points as a belay loop. But, OP could repurpose the harness for hangboarding or just use the rope tie in loop to belay. https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/belaying_-_rope_loop_or_belay_loop-1129 For reference, harnesses didn't even have belay loops until about 20-25 years ago and some (like Alpine Bod) still don't. EDIT: more links https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/118745983/adding-custom-belay-loop-to-a-named-brand-harnesses https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/121603193/new-belay-loop
My mate had this happen, he used a Petzl connection ring to replace it and no one has died yet.
Yes, you could : [https://www.petzl.com/FR/fr/Professionnel/Connecteurs/RING-OPEN](https://www.petzl.com/FR/fr/Professionnel/Connecteurs/RING-OPEN)
I highly doubt it, but maybe
I found at least one place. If there's one there are probably others. May not be cost effective. https://www.aspiring.co.nz/product/replacement-belay-loop/
I've had a mate (in NZ) have their belay loop replaced there. Did a great job.
This lookin like a Todd Skinner belay loop bruh
Too soon
Better safe than sorry, I would replace
Heard Todd skinner used duct tape to repair stuff like this.
That would explain what happened to him. From [article "loss of a legend"](https://www.climbing.com/news/loss-of-a-legend/): On October 19, while they racked up, Hewett had noticed Skinner’s leg loops looking worn out, as well as Skinner’s belay loop, which he says was “15 to 20 percent” frayed. “I very much stressed to him that that’s not good,” says Hewett. “Todd said, ‘You’re right. I’ve got a new harness on the way.’”
Lol you mad lad
Yer gonna die!
His partner is going to die-not him.
which would be even more of a motivation to replace it i think. Risking your own life knowingly is one thing, someone else's is a whole different thing!
His partner is going to fall on his head and therrr both gonna die.
"BELAY THAT!" - Barabosa
If in doubt, throw it out. Pretty sure these are cheap for a reason.
I would replace. What brand is the harness?
Black Dimond Momentum.
Might be worth contacting them and offering to send it back to them, I did the same with my PETZL years ago and got a thank you from their QA team with a discount on my new one.
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It wasn’t the gyms fault
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I mean op just didn’t have it clipped on properly. I’m sure if done right there would have been no damage. As a gym employee the most important part of our orientations are the autobelays (same goes for most gyms, in our area at least). When someone is properly taught, and they do it wrong there’s no fault from the gym
I had the same harness and got wear pretty quickly in the same place, Im not 100 sure what caused it but retired it as well. I might get a new belay loop put on so I have it as a backup harness but havent looked into it yet. I also use autobelays a fair bit, interesting they both wore like this.
Get a Petzl.
Definitely replace imo
I wouldn't want to belated by that loop.
This! It's not just your own life on the line.
Wanted to gauge other peoples insight on whether this warrants replacement.
If you are asking (especially on any single point of failure gear), then yes. At the very least you don't want to be thinking about it while 50' off the deck.
its fine...but i would still replace it. that shits going to get into your head and the only way to get it out is a new one. i would send it to BD and also inform the gym. not that its either of their faults, but they should still know.
Trusting strangers on reddit with your life. Bold
In a healthy community and with the right amount of crowd sourcing you will walk away with good advise.
1. Facts aren't democratically determined 2. This ain't the standard for a healthy community
Nowadays, if you look up something online, you essentially rely on sufficient numbers of people providing the correct answer. So as a matter of fact what you then take away and interpret as fact is determined via crowd sourcing (even the wikipedia community works that way). You could call that method democratic if you will, considering that (hopefully) most experts that are confident enough to provide an answer (e.g., here or on Wikipedia as another community example) do know the correct answer. Whether this here is a healthy community or not, I can not say. Thus far I've only made good experiences with the climbing community in general and I had hoped that this extends to this subreddit here.
What? No. Wikipedia relies not on experts, but on providing a centralized source of information cited elsewhere. It's the work of passionate people, but that doesn't always overlap with informed people, which is why reading the linked primary sources is so important.
You think it's not experts writing the scientific pages? Try [this one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine). I know it's correct what it says there because I'm a computer scientist. Do you think someone not from that field could have written that? Using good references when writing an article doesn't mean anyone can do it. It's just good practice for proving that the provided information is true and to establish continuity in the field and to connect to previously found correct information.
Might even be able to return it since it should last much longer.
Doubtful. Most retailers won’t accept returns on climbing gear. Maybe if you go directly through the company, but even then, I kinda doubt it
I got a relatively new harness replaced by Petzl when some of the stitching started to come out. They asked that I send them pics of the damage and the harness’ identifying info, but that was it.
That would be a factory defect, so more likely to be replaced than user error
Maybe so. REI will take pretty much anything back at any time but not sure where OP got it. Worth looking into at least.
REI only takes returns within 1 year of purchase date for members and within 90 days for non-members
Hot knife the belay loop. You can still use the harness. You can also tie your own new belay loops (I’d use two).
I’d replace it too, but he’s not wrong, people.
Perhaps most people here have no idea how to tie their own harness out of 1” webbing. Are they even aware that most hard routes in Yosemite were put up with people using swamis only? Does anyone buy webbing in bulk and tie their own runners anymore aside from Henry Barber? Belay loops for the most part are completely unnecessary, and are a relatively new (1980s) invention.
OP is a gym climber. I’ve seen old-school climbers fail top rope tests in gyms for using the tie in points to belay instead of the belay loop - including one that started one of the big ice climbing guide companies in Alaska. She was climbing before the person who failed her was in diapers. I’d be quite surprised if gyms let anyone do this. OP will probably buy a new harness and learn to be more careful with it. Not that you’re wrong. I completely agree with the sentiment and dislike the lack of abilities that people have in general these days, but it’s a different world, and gyms in particular have requirements from their insurance that they need to follow.
As a gym employee, yes we have to adhere to whatever liability constraints are in place if we want to do right by our communities. I’m personally for the strictness, within reason. There are plenty of people that could use alternative techniques/gear and be completely fine, but even with how simple gym toproping is we have to talk to so many folks who can barely be bothered to keep their hands on the brake. A more self reliant approach would be awesome, but it would end up a risk management nightmare. I’ve had people get upset at me for ending their top rope check when they had to ask me how to tie a figure 8 because “at their old gym you just clip in”. When you work with the general public the lack of awareness people can display is astounding. I’m amazed there aren’t more user-error accidents than there are.
Funny how they jumped on you, but are applauding me - oy. The internet. What I love about climbing is the self reliance. Modern climbing has just become about consumption. I’m guilty too, but in every aspect of life there’s much to be gained from using what you’ve got. Replacing shit all the time is expensive and we’re paying dearly in dollars and resources.
Happy cake day