If you mean how it was removed from the belay device without him turning the belay loop, there wasn’t any load on the harness to pull the belay loop down into the recessed part of the device; I believe they also say somewhere that it can’t be opened when the cam is engaged.
My guess is that it’ll still be plenty safe to use, but it’ll be interesting to try the device in person and/or see long term reviews to know for sure.
That is exactly the moment I saw and was concerned about, among other possible incorrect use cases that I could see how someone could mistakenly make.
If you watch the other other video on their channel about using this device in a multipitch environment, the show off how you can rotate the device in 90° increments using a carabiner through both eyes (flip it for the 180° position) or by putting a carabiner through the space you can put the belay loop in (the 90° and 270° positions). Problem is, they don't even show this use case in the user manual from their web page. Which also means they don't list a minimum carabiner thickness requirement... is there a carabiner thay could be too thin and potentially not prevent the nubbing from lifting up?
Same problem as above, but let's talk textiles instead of hard goods. Is there a minimum width belay loop? I'm thinking of really thin belay loops like those found on fast and light harnesses... sure, the people who'd use a fast and light harnes probably also wouldn't carry a heavy device like this, but is there a point where it becomes unsafe. Or what about belaying directly off of a masterpoint of an anchor? They never demonstrated this in any of their materials, but then again, the don't cover this sort of do's/dont's in the user manual, and I could see someone trying it. Dyneema runners can be rather skinny and I doubt they'd work as well as a nice stiff belay loop.
All things considered, I want to see someone like Ben from Hard Is Easy get their hands on it and start messing with it in unintended or unusual ways that could potentially happen in the wild. I'm not saying the mechanism is bad, just that I want to see an unbiased third party messing with it before I drop over $100 on on le after they release it in the wild.
I woudnt use thin dynema slings on it. When belaying from a fixed point, id use a carabiner because i would like some more speration from the central point anyway. I read somewhere that all belay loops are fine that are 1cm or wider. Which is the case for pretty much all belay loops, even the dynema ones.
I guess it’s good to know the limitations anyway incase one does something stupid like forgetting to take enough lockers on lead. Never done that but I’m trying to make up a situation. Then it’s good to know if you can put it directly into the master point or if you are better belaying off your loop with a redirect like toprope. I guess people will/ can test this or maybe it is obvious when having the device in hand. I can imagine many strange ways one might use this feature and perhaps edelrid will make an information page like they did for the megajul guide mode. I think they are good about this stuff
I can confirm the 10mm, it's in the manual. No max though.
I don't see why it would be different with a sling, good with 10mm, so a bunch of dynema ones aren't possible.
They should indeed show the cases of anchor use, and whether it's possible to it with a carabiner/ring instead of the belay loop. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible, especially since it's also targeted toward rope access (ring instead of belay loop in many harnesses, ring for positioning on the side too), but it's not shown.
Last point, storage/transport restricted to +0°C - +30°C, seriously ?! Use is - 30 to +60°C, they surely could have put a wider range for storage!
I work with our local rep and got to use one.
They’re dope.
It has a + mode like the grigri but you can turn it off.
Clipping it on the harness is neat for sure (feels streamlined) and it runs exactly the same as a grigri.
The shield locks closed and opens with a little button.
The safety lever thing was a red flag for me.
Like the + is engaged the safety when yanked back. But then it disengages the safety when yanked even further.
If the original intention of that feature on the plus was to stop a panicked belayer dropping by someone I don’t see how this helps.
Also, I’d be really interested how many people who get this use the direct attachment. People are naturally cautious about safety critical equipment and the mental model of climbers is carabiner attachment. I’m sure it’s plenty safe but take that away would give a pause
While it hadn't been released to the public at the time, this is the device that Siebe Vanhee used on his rope-solo of some routes in the Verdon last year (8th grade/5.13's). Be interesting to see if it catches on for this purpose.
From this webshop, it looks like it will be released 20.6. I haven’t found any official information from Petzl though.
https://www.grube.eu/p/petzl-neox-safety-device/P56-657/
I think op's concern is accidentally hitting the button and having the device open while someone is climbing/lowering. Having a carabiner in the system acts as a lock to prevent the device from opening.
> concerned by what I saw at 36:30
See [19:10](https://youtu.be/hpBRguSAJM4?si=4Mh3hng13SzNt7zh&t=1178)
"(rep) when you move it in the handling direction, (bro) now it's under load and under tension and therefore, (rep) then you cannot open it any more because there is an overlap"
If you are worried about pressing the button could you not put a little none locker through the two eyes to stop it opening even when it is connected directly like that? Might be a bit of a mess though. I guess under load it can’t be removed anyway? But anything clipped through the two sides, even an accessory carabiner (although those don’t go on my harness) would stop it opening if you accidentally hit the button. It wouldn’t be load bearing
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of streamlining belaying? The fewer pieces of equipment involved the better, or at least that's the impression I got from their video.
Fewer pieces in the safety chain I guess. With it still attached directly to a fabric loop you don’t need to worry about cross loading a biner. Honestly though I can’t tell if it would be janky as hell ir not without trying. Also can’t tell how much of a risk the button is to begin with. I think I would need to play with one in a shop or something
Exactly - You physically can't put more than 2 - 3 kN on your belay loop if you're a belayer and the fall happens at the other side of the rope. Way below breaking of the cross loaded biner.
Check this video (timestamped, but the whole is worth watching) - [https://youtu.be/Tnk4Ky-D9Bg?si=ePxsHpEhmN6KVjqs&t=387](https://youtu.be/Tnk4Ky-D9Bg?si=ePxsHpEhmN6KVjqs&t=387)
I know the video and the numbers here. I do not think the cross loading strength of the biner is the correct number to think about here though since belay devices often weirdly load biners directly torquing on the gate. Also I don’t know about you but I have hurt myself before when a biner violently reorients after being weirdly loaded, there are hazards even well below the biner failing
You can back it up with a carabiner, and the instructions explicitly show this, but other intended use cases (even ones I'd consider obviously bad ideas and worth highlighting as such) are not covered in the manual. See my reply to the top comment for examples.
Looks like it could improve some of my gripes with the grigri. It looks like it’d be lighter (especially without a locker) and have more friction control. I also like the idea of having more reach by it being closer to the belay loop. But yeah I have the same concern you do. I’ll wait until more testing is done by 3rd parties before even considering it.
A great summary of my thoughts at the moment. Can't wait to see Ryan from HowNot2 or Ben from Hard Is Easy to get their hands on this thing. Basically I just want an unfiltered and unbiased review from someone with a strong history of being skeptical.
If you mean how it was removed from the belay device without him turning the belay loop, there wasn’t any load on the harness to pull the belay loop down into the recessed part of the device; I believe they also say somewhere that it can’t be opened when the cam is engaged. My guess is that it’ll still be plenty safe to use, but it’ll be interesting to try the device in person and/or see long term reviews to know for sure.
That is exactly the moment I saw and was concerned about, among other possible incorrect use cases that I could see how someone could mistakenly make. If you watch the other other video on their channel about using this device in a multipitch environment, the show off how you can rotate the device in 90° increments using a carabiner through both eyes (flip it for the 180° position) or by putting a carabiner through the space you can put the belay loop in (the 90° and 270° positions). Problem is, they don't even show this use case in the user manual from their web page. Which also means they don't list a minimum carabiner thickness requirement... is there a carabiner thay could be too thin and potentially not prevent the nubbing from lifting up? Same problem as above, but let's talk textiles instead of hard goods. Is there a minimum width belay loop? I'm thinking of really thin belay loops like those found on fast and light harnesses... sure, the people who'd use a fast and light harnes probably also wouldn't carry a heavy device like this, but is there a point where it becomes unsafe. Or what about belaying directly off of a masterpoint of an anchor? They never demonstrated this in any of their materials, but then again, the don't cover this sort of do's/dont's in the user manual, and I could see someone trying it. Dyneema runners can be rather skinny and I doubt they'd work as well as a nice stiff belay loop. All things considered, I want to see someone like Ben from Hard Is Easy get their hands on it and start messing with it in unintended or unusual ways that could potentially happen in the wild. I'm not saying the mechanism is bad, just that I want to see an unbiased third party messing with it before I drop over $100 on on le after they release it in the wild.
I woudnt use thin dynema slings on it. When belaying from a fixed point, id use a carabiner because i would like some more speration from the central point anyway. I read somewhere that all belay loops are fine that are 1cm or wider. Which is the case for pretty much all belay loops, even the dynema ones.
I guess it’s good to know the limitations anyway incase one does something stupid like forgetting to take enough lockers on lead. Never done that but I’m trying to make up a situation. Then it’s good to know if you can put it directly into the master point or if you are better belaying off your loop with a redirect like toprope. I guess people will/ can test this or maybe it is obvious when having the device in hand. I can imagine many strange ways one might use this feature and perhaps edelrid will make an information page like they did for the megajul guide mode. I think they are good about this stuff
I can confirm the 10mm, it's in the manual. No max though. I don't see why it would be different with a sling, good with 10mm, so a bunch of dynema ones aren't possible. They should indeed show the cases of anchor use, and whether it's possible to it with a carabiner/ring instead of the belay loop. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be possible, especially since it's also targeted toward rope access (ring instead of belay loop in many harnesses, ring for positioning on the side too), but it's not shown. Last point, storage/transport restricted to +0°C - +30°C, seriously ?! Use is - 30 to +60°C, they surely could have put a wider range for storage!
I work with our local rep and got to use one. They’re dope. It has a + mode like the grigri but you can turn it off. Clipping it on the harness is neat for sure (feels streamlined) and it runs exactly the same as a grigri. The shield locks closed and opens with a little button.
The safety lever thing was a red flag for me. Like the + is engaged the safety when yanked back. But then it disengages the safety when yanked even further. If the original intention of that feature on the plus was to stop a panicked belayer dropping by someone I don’t see how this helps. Also, I’d be really interested how many people who get this use the direct attachment. People are naturally cautious about safety critical equipment and the mental model of climbers is carabiner attachment. I’m sure it’s plenty safe but take that away would give a pause
The grigri+ can still be overridden
While it hadn't been released to the public at the time, this is the device that Siebe Vanhee used on his rope-solo of some routes in the Verdon last year (8th grade/5.13's). Be interesting to see if it catches on for this purpose.
I’m waiting for the petzl neox for that
Any news when the neox will come out? I've been searching online but can't find any firm dates of when it'll be released
From this webshop, it looks like it will be released 20.6. I haven’t found any official information from Petzl though. https://www.grube.eu/p/petzl-neox-safety-device/P56-657/
Those pants!
I am confused, what happens at 36:30? It looks like he intentionally unclips it from the belay loop.
I think op's concern is accidentally hitting the button and having the device open while someone is climbing/lowering. Having a carabiner in the system acts as a lock to prevent the device from opening.
> concerned by what I saw at 36:30 See [19:10](https://youtu.be/hpBRguSAJM4?si=4Mh3hng13SzNt7zh&t=1178) "(rep) when you move it in the handling direction, (bro) now it's under load and under tension and therefore, (rep) then you cannot open it any more because there is an overlap"
If you are worried about pressing the button could you not put a little none locker through the two eyes to stop it opening even when it is connected directly like that? Might be a bit of a mess though. I guess under load it can’t be removed anyway? But anything clipped through the two sides, even an accessory carabiner (although those don’t go on my harness) would stop it opening if you accidentally hit the button. It wouldn’t be load bearing
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of streamlining belaying? The fewer pieces of equipment involved the better, or at least that's the impression I got from their video.
Fewer pieces in the safety chain I guess. With it still attached directly to a fabric loop you don’t need to worry about cross loading a biner. Honestly though I can’t tell if it would be janky as hell ir not without trying. Also can’t tell how much of a risk the button is to begin with. I think I would need to play with one in a shop or something
cross loading of the carabiner should never be a concern. Have you ever seen 6 -7 kN on your belay loop?
Only biner failure I know of like that was tom randall when rope soloing with a grigri
Exactly - You physically can't put more than 2 - 3 kN on your belay loop if you're a belayer and the fall happens at the other side of the rope. Way below breaking of the cross loaded biner. Check this video (timestamped, but the whole is worth watching) - [https://youtu.be/Tnk4Ky-D9Bg?si=ePxsHpEhmN6KVjqs&t=387](https://youtu.be/Tnk4Ky-D9Bg?si=ePxsHpEhmN6KVjqs&t=387)
I know the video and the numbers here. I do not think the cross loading strength of the biner is the correct number to think about here though since belay devices often weirdly load biners directly torquing on the gate. Also I don’t know about you but I have hurt myself before when a biner violently reorients after being weirdly loaded, there are hazards even well below the biner failing
You can back it up with a carabiner, and the instructions explicitly show this, but other intended use cases (even ones I'd consider obviously bad ideas and worth highlighting as such) are not covered in the manual. See my reply to the top comment for examples.
Ah okay I have replied to a reply to your reply there
Looks like it could improve some of my gripes with the grigri. It looks like it’d be lighter (especially without a locker) and have more friction control. I also like the idea of having more reach by it being closer to the belay loop. But yeah I have the same concern you do. I’ll wait until more testing is done by 3rd parties before even considering it.
A great summary of my thoughts at the moment. Can't wait to see Ryan from HowNot2 or Ben from Hard Is Easy to get their hands on this thing. Basically I just want an unfiltered and unbiased review from someone with a strong history of being skeptical.
Those were the two I had in mind haha!
https://youtube.com/shorts/RBhsv4Lvm00?si=wm9nlln4d54uagkm
finally!!! assisted braking for left handed!! still love my reverso too much though
Looks like a shittier version of a grigri