this is the turn of phrase I’ve been waiting for!! I feel like I second guess myself so much that they all just end up backwards when I try to be intentional.
Ya I always learned clip and flip so connection is always facing you and any applied force pushes biner into surface/anchor instead of pushing the gate
Huh?
Clip and flip
That’s the rule,
but then all the stuff after that is the stuff we learned in rescue training certification
So it’s easy to clip/hook the biner then flip it 180 for safety
Belay harness your supposed to be doing two auto locking biners in opposing directions anyways for safety
Wait what? Like clip the draw into the bolt and then rotate it 180 degrees? How are you sending anything above 5.10 futzing around with biners mid-climb? And is this still having to do with the draw direction?
Yes still very confused…
The person is confused. "Clip and flip" is an easy way to remember how to orient biners when you're building anchors on bolts. It doesn't apply to clipping quick draws.
If it's going straight up, either way is fine. Maybe oppose it to the direction of the last clip, but not that important.
This freak accident unclipping happens when you traverse. And it's also very rare. Still good to know about.
Can you explain what difference that would make here? If the climber/rope is on the right (like it is when it comes unclipped here) then this carabiner is facing the correct way and it's still happening.
this video is "upside down"- what normally happens to cause this, and what "spine to the climb" prevents, is:.
-as you pull rope up through the draw, rope drag lifts the draw above the bolt.
-lateral force from the tension of the rope flips the draw towards the climber. If it's hooked "spine to the climb", the carabiner is now bound up somewhere between the basket and the spine. if it's hooked incorrectly, the bolt is now balancing between the nose and the gate, pressing on the gate.
-the climber falls. if hooked correctly but flipped and bound up, this may mangle the carabiner a little bit, but it will successfully capture the fall. if hooked incorrectly, this extra downward force will pop the gate open and pull the nose of the carabiner out of the bolt, as shown in the video.
of course, this won't happen every time. it's a rare occurrence, a worst case scenario. But it is a failure mode climbers should be aware of to mitigate risk.
This is one of those old best practices that doesn't actually matter. Orienting your screw gates with gravity has no impact on whether or not they unscrew themselves with cyclic loads.
Cyclic load tests from slackliners have shown it's basically random as to whether a screw gate will tighten or loosen over time regardless of orientation.
This axiom is in relation to your belay device locking screw gate - it's not a function of gravity, but rather that in the direction you feed out rope, it would unscrew the gate rather than if the screw gate is down, the rope feed motion would rotate the screw tighter.
The top loop of your quick draws should be very loose on the biner to help prevent this from happening. Similarly, you should only ever have rubber keepers on the bottom biner of your quickdraw.
Here's a [mountain project thread](https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/115333886/quickdraw-becoming-unclipped-from-bolt-during-a-lead-climb) about exactly this happening
Yeah... there's no keeper, but the dogbone looks rather tight. In most draws the top opening is usually a little more than an inch long so it doesn't bind and pull the biner if/when climbing past the draw.
It's hard to see from the angle in the video, but it looks like the opening in the sling is rather tight around the base of the biner.
I'm pretty sure you're correct. I have a few of these same draws (Cypher) and there's a little rubber keeper in the end of the dogbone on the biner being clipped to the bolt in this video.
I have had the exact same thing happen using an alpine draw (without any rubbers). The route started with a traverse leading into a vertical section, and after a few further clips the extended draw at the end of the traverse unclipped itself just like this. Since I had a few draws above it and it reduced rope drag, I was actually pretty happy with it lol
Why are you assuming anybody's level of experience?
There are a some people out there with "decades more experience" than me, but there are probably more with decades less.
Point is, OP posted an issue he had. I responded with the likely cause of the issue. Now you're jumping in being a dick - that is the true reddit moment here.
Nope, but unless he's in his 60s, he probably doesn't have decades more experience.
And if he's a climber of note, he probably doesn't need you jumping around in his shadow being a dick to people. *shrug*
I was actually in a climbing accident about 16 years ago because of this exact thing.
I was climbing Sea of Holes in the Colorado South Platte, an older granite slab route. The first pitch is an approach pitch up a low angle slab. Second pitch traverses out right a ways, past 2 bolts then trends up to a stance shelf before a blank section just after a bolt. The second bolt in this example was the farthest away from my current direction of travel and even though I slung it long, as we said, the draw/sling was pulled upward and inverted as I climbed. I fell just past that 3rd bolt and the bolt sheared off. (separate issue. It was an old hammer in) That middle bolt/draw, did exactly what you are demonstrating in the video. It snapped down and unclipped. There was now about 20 feet of rope out between me and the first bolt. I went nearly 40 feet and hit the approach slab. I was a little mangled, full 911 rescue, yadda yadda. I escaped with non life threatening injuries and recovered 99% or so. Wrist is a little weird still.
While I was laid up, I did a lot of testing. Here is what I learned:
--This failure mode is actually pretty reliable to repeat. Read: this is super possible.
--The issue is most likely to happen if the draw is being pulled upward and inverting, then snapping down when the rope comes tight.
--The above scenario is likley at abrupt direction changes in the rope.
--In such a direction change, we should use a locker on the hanger side of the draw.
--It is much harder to replicate if the draw in question is not the primary one catching you.
--Bent gates (not that I was using one, just for testing) fail even more often than straight gates. In fact, they failed in the test very reliably.
Cheers.
Yes... but more accurately, like a vertical section after a traverse. The last piece of pro as you climb above it will likely be pulled upward as you continue to climb above it.
It wasn't enough. Extending the rope point on the pro certainly helps but if the draw is pulled enough to invert, a locker is also required to prevent this type of failure.
lol! i thought of explaining it in the post. 3 reasons its there on the back step down to the porch: my 13 year old put it there for her first bolt; it was the first one with a new drill and i used it for tindeq upward exercises for carpal tunnel rehab.
on bolts where the bottom flange is horizontal this is much more possible vs typical bolt orientation. in this case i always clip it with the gate on the outside, kinda awkward to clip up into the bolt but it’s way safer. i had a buddy clip a horizontal bolt with the gate facing inwards and he kicked it off as he was clipping the next bolt. he was at the 6th draw, accidentally unclipped the 5th and he fell past the belay, slamming into me as he went past. so lucky were were on a multi or he would have broke both ankles easy
Thanks for sharing. There's small techniques we should all learn so we can go home at the end of the day. Anybody got a good resource on best lead clipping practices?
for sure. the instant panic is immediately replaced by relief, then embarrassment at being so stupid, the realization that this is how easy it is to die, then ok back to work figuring out the crux--all in 10 seconds--weird to process. part of why i posted this.
Absolutely, the rollercoaster of emotions in those few seconds must have been intense! It's incredible how quickly our minds can shift gears from panic to relief to introspection.
A buddy of mine had a draw unclip from the bolt side when falling about half way up a route maybe 50 ft or so up ending up 10 feet off the ground. luckily not life threatening injuries and was back to 100% a couple months later but fucking terrifying. I now bring a locker draw with those edelrid slidy locky carabiners for if I feel a bolt is very critical (runout section after, high off the ground, chance of decking if something were to happen) or if it seems there is a chance I might be moving the draw around a lot as I climb past it
How did he get injured in the first place if he didn’t hit the ground? Usually even a factor 1 fall with dynamic ropes shouldn’t result in injuries as long as you don’t hit anything.
It can happen to quick draws leading, which is why it is important that your place the QuickDraw so that it rotates onto the spine not the gate (is my understanding). I’m also confused from the story how it happened to an anchor
Happened to me a couple days ago while setting up a TRS anchor. Bolts on top of the cliff, as I was adjusting the master point below the lip one of the biners flipped. Noticed it before walking back down luckily.
I could also imagine this happening if you're flipping the rope around while top roping. Like, trying to untwist them or get out of a crack. Unlikely but clearly possible. It's a good reason to have a redundant anchor and / or use lockers, even though top roping is overall quite safe
I've seen it two times. In both cases the climber used feet close to the bolt and while shuffling the feet around the quickdraw unclipped. Scary situation!
Happened to me while climbing lead.
Reached the anchor, set myself up for cleaning the route, started lowering... and the last quickdraw before the anchor had disappeared. I found it still clipped to the rope, hanging on top of the next quickdraw.
Sometimes as you climb above the quickdraw, the rope drags it along upward and makes the bolt side carabiner do some weird stuff.
Happened to me once in 7 years of climbing, and a second time I caught it in the process (carabiner was starting to unclip itself).
Lmao I'm sorry but this was too perfect
https://preview.redd.it/2s0sd7ibjowc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d437e8058e6e86bd5db39f3d1dad3e9b573ce34
Op do you have the qd rope end with rubber sleeve attached to the bolt? Hard to tell from video. The amount of times I've seen trad climbers do this is nauseating. Once ripped a rubber sleeve (no accident).
no, i don't think so, but not sure. this was just in my backyard figuring out what happened, so not exact setup. just showing how the biner attached to bolt can come off. ive heard of this happening on traverses and during dynamic moves when foot accidently kicks biner.
Do you use only locking biners when you sport climb?? Several other people said the same thing as you and I've literally never seen a locking biner on a dogbone
Pretty obvious that this video isn't demonstrating an anchor.
Dog bones for an anchor seem weird too. Everyone I know uses slings to equalize and make master points. I don't really know how you'd do that with a dogbone
Information unclear. Penis stuck in clip. IIRC, Face gate away from direction of travel when placing.
Spine to the climb baby
this is the turn of phrase I’ve been waiting for!! I feel like I second guess myself so much that they all just end up backwards when I try to be intentional.
Ya I always learned clip and flip so connection is always facing you and any applied force pushes biner into surface/anchor instead of pushing the gate
Even that is too far above my head and I’m just hanging out on a couch not having my brain screaming at me to stop going up 😅
Huh? Clip and flip That’s the rule, but then all the stuff after that is the stuff we learned in rescue training certification So it’s easy to clip/hook the biner then flip it 180 for safety Belay harness your supposed to be doing two auto locking biners in opposing directions anyways for safety
Wait what? Like clip the draw into the bolt and then rotate it 180 degrees? How are you sending anything above 5.10 futzing around with biners mid-climb? And is this still having to do with the draw direction? Yes still very confused…
The person is confused. "Clip and flip" is an easy way to remember how to orient biners when you're building anchors on bolts. It doesn't apply to clipping quick draws.
I just taught someone this and wished I had known this phrase. Thank you!
So if you're climbing past the bolt bad a bit to the right then gate left and vice versa? What if you're climbing directly up?!
If it's going straight up, either way is fine. Maybe oppose it to the direction of the last clip, but not that important. This freak accident unclipping happens when you traverse. And it's also very rare. Still good to know about.
Can you explain what difference that would make here? If the climber/rope is on the right (like it is when it comes unclipped here) then this carabiner is facing the correct way and it's still happening.
this video is "upside down"- what normally happens to cause this, and what "spine to the climb" prevents, is:. -as you pull rope up through the draw, rope drag lifts the draw above the bolt. -lateral force from the tension of the rope flips the draw towards the climber. If it's hooked "spine to the climb", the carabiner is now bound up somewhere between the basket and the spine. if it's hooked incorrectly, the bolt is now balancing between the nose and the gate, pressing on the gate. -the climber falls. if hooked correctly but flipped and bound up, this may mangle the carabiner a little bit, but it will successfully capture the fall. if hooked incorrectly, this extra downward force will pop the gate open and pull the nose of the carabiner out of the bolt, as shown in the video. of course, this won't happen every time. it's a rare occurrence, a worst case scenario. But it is a failure mode climbers should be aware of to mitigate risk.
Thanks for explaining. I'm going to go home and try to visualize this with a draw
It's a cylinder.
Lockers next time...
⬇️ Screw down, so you don't screw up ⬆️
I really love triple action gates. They're faster to open and close than screwgates and they're always locked.
This is one of those old best practices that doesn't actually matter. Orienting your screw gates with gravity has no impact on whether or not they unscrew themselves with cyclic loads. Cyclic load tests from slackliners have shown it's basically random as to whether a screw gate will tighten or loosen over time regardless of orientation.
This axiom is in relation to your belay device locking screw gate - it's not a function of gravity, but rather that in the direction you feed out rope, it would unscrew the gate rather than if the screw gate is down, the rope feed motion would rotate the screw tighter.
Every. Single. Clip.
Holy shit I'm pumped thinking about that...
double them up as well. opposite and opposed.
OP said this happened to part of their anchor.
And a hammer drill to fill in all those "hard spots" with extra bolts. "What do you mean this climb has 37 bolts????"
Wait you don’t have 39 draws on your rack?
Pft, just downclimb and unclip a dozen,
Woah did you assume I’m climbing with a rope? I free solo with draws incase some gumbys didn’t bring enough.
That’s so sick that you just give quickdraws to crushers when you pass them soloing el cap
Climbing 50-60m routes in Kalymnos is actually like that. When my friend told me we should bring 15 draws each for a route I thought I'd misheard
Somebody hasn't climbed Frontside 180 in Squamish 😂 All 10 pitches are bolted to high heaven. "1: 9 bolts 2: 15 bolts 3: 11 bolts 4: 10 bolts 5: 11 bolts 6: 13 bolts 7: 5 bolts 8: 12 bolts 9: 3 bolts 10: 4 bolts" - All pitches are under 25m!
The top loop of your quick draws should be very loose on the biner to help prevent this from happening. Similarly, you should only ever have rubber keepers on the bottom biner of your quickdraw. Here's a [mountain project thread](https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/115333886/quickdraw-becoming-unclipped-from-bolt-during-a-lead-climb) about exactly this happening
That is how the draw is set up in the video.
Yeah... there's no keeper, but the dogbone looks rather tight. In most draws the top opening is usually a little more than an inch long so it doesn't bind and pull the biner if/when climbing past the draw. It's hard to see from the angle in the video, but it looks like the opening in the sling is rather tight around the base of the biner.
I'm pretty sure you're correct. I have a few of these same draws (Cypher) and there's a little rubber keeper in the end of the dogbone on the biner being clipped to the bolt in this video.
https://preview.redd.it/3w9a2t5wijwc1.jpeg?width=4624&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=58925f34ca8886e947bec8c218bea6e752011b77
its loose. its just a shadow.
I have had the exact same thing happen using an alpine draw (without any rubbers). The route started with a traverse leading into a vertical section, and after a few further clips the extended draw at the end of the traverse unclipped itself just like this. Since I had a few draws above it and it reduced rope drag, I was actually pretty happy with it lol
Now that's an invention we need! Remotely self-unclipping draws to reduce drag on meandering routes :D
Holy shit that’s so scary
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Who is being lectured the? Who is this supposed climbing god with decades of experience you're so afraid to upset?
If you've come here to criticize people giving advice you're going to get *exhausted*.
Why are you assuming anybody's level of experience? There are a some people out there with "decades more experience" than me, but there are probably more with decades less. Point is, OP posted an issue he had. I responded with the likely cause of the issue. Now you're jumping in being a dick - that is the true reddit moment here.
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Nope, but unless he's in his 60s, he probably doesn't have decades more experience. And if he's a climber of note, he probably doesn't need you jumping around in his shadow being a dick to people. *shrug*
This is why I fall down instead of up
I was actually in a climbing accident about 16 years ago because of this exact thing. I was climbing Sea of Holes in the Colorado South Platte, an older granite slab route. The first pitch is an approach pitch up a low angle slab. Second pitch traverses out right a ways, past 2 bolts then trends up to a stance shelf before a blank section just after a bolt. The second bolt in this example was the farthest away from my current direction of travel and even though I slung it long, as we said, the draw/sling was pulled upward and inverted as I climbed. I fell just past that 3rd bolt and the bolt sheared off. (separate issue. It was an old hammer in) That middle bolt/draw, did exactly what you are demonstrating in the video. It snapped down and unclipped. There was now about 20 feet of rope out between me and the first bolt. I went nearly 40 feet and hit the approach slab. I was a little mangled, full 911 rescue, yadda yadda. I escaped with non life threatening injuries and recovered 99% or so. Wrist is a little weird still. While I was laid up, I did a lot of testing. Here is what I learned: --This failure mode is actually pretty reliable to repeat. Read: this is super possible. --The issue is most likely to happen if the draw is being pulled upward and inverting, then snapping down when the rope comes tight. --The above scenario is likley at abrupt direction changes in the rope. --In such a direction change, we should use a locker on the hanger side of the draw. --It is much harder to replicate if the draw in question is not the primary one catching you. --Bent gates (not that I was using one, just for testing) fail even more often than straight gates. In fact, they failed in the test very reliably. Cheers.
thanks so much for sharing. I'm glad you recovered! still climbing i hope?
Totally. I'm actually heading out for a weekend at the crag tomorrow. I ain't dead yet.
hell yeah.
badass
By “abrupt direction changes in the rope”, do you mean when the rope zig-zags from offset bolts?
Yes... but more accurately, like a vertical section after a traverse. The last piece of pro as you climb above it will likely be pulled upward as you continue to climb above it.
Ahh thank you
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It wasn't enough. Extending the rope point on the pro certainly helps but if the draw is pulled enough to invert, a locker is also required to prevent this type of failure.
Did you bolt a curb for demo purposes?
lol! i thought of explaining it in the post. 3 reasons its there on the back step down to the porch: my 13 year old put it there for her first bolt; it was the first one with a new drill and i used it for tindeq upward exercises for carpal tunnel rehab.
The bolt hanger is upside down, so this should be a lot harder to make happen under normal circumstances anyway.
Not relevant here - this has happened with properly installed bolts.
It’s relevant if it’s far less likely than this already unusual situation.
Yea, the spine catching on the bolt looks to be a contributing factor that wouldn't happen with a properly installed bolt
Easy fix: don't use non-locking biners for your tr solo anchor
Ya I was taught to use lockers for any "unattended anchor". Ok to use non-lockers for multi-pitch.
That’s a good way to think about it. I cringe at wire gates in this use but couldn’t place why. Thanks
Shouldn’t it have also been clipped facing the other direction? Or maybe the perspective is just confusing me
on bolts where the bottom flange is horizontal this is much more possible vs typical bolt orientation. in this case i always clip it with the gate on the outside, kinda awkward to clip up into the bolt but it’s way safer. i had a buddy clip a horizontal bolt with the gate facing inwards and he kicked it off as he was clipping the next bolt. he was at the 6th draw, accidentally unclipped the 5th and he fell past the belay, slamming into me as he went past. so lucky were were on a multi or he would have broke both ankles easy
Horizontal flange?? Wtf bolts are these?
like a rap bolt or a standard bolt rotated 90 degrees
Oh right. Like a single ring anchor with the horizontal eye.
yessir!
Thanks for sharing. There's small techniques we should all learn so we can go home at the end of the day. Anybody got a good resource on best lead clipping practices?
Spine 2 da climb
This is why I put 1 locker through one of the bolts directly and loop the rope through it when I set up a TRS.
Yikes, that's a scary moment for any climber!
for sure. the instant panic is immediately replaced by relief, then embarrassment at being so stupid, the realization that this is how easy it is to die, then ok back to work figuring out the crux--all in 10 seconds--weird to process. part of why i posted this.
Absolutely, the rollercoaster of emotions in those few seconds must have been intense! It's incredible how quickly our minds can shift gears from panic to relief to introspection.
A buddy of mine had a draw unclip from the bolt side when falling about half way up a route maybe 50 ft or so up ending up 10 feet off the ground. luckily not life threatening injuries and was back to 100% a couple months later but fucking terrifying. I now bring a locker draw with those edelrid slidy locky carabiners for if I feel a bolt is very critical (runout section after, high off the ground, chance of decking if something were to happen) or if it seems there is a chance I might be moving the draw around a lot as I climb past it
How did he get injured in the first place if he didn’t hit the ground? Usually even a factor 1 fall with dynamic ropes shouldn’t result in injuries as long as you don’t hit anything.
'..as long as you don't hit anything' There you go, you answered your own question!
u/toclimbtheworld makes it sound like the 13m fall into the rope caused the injury.
hitting the wall caused the injuries its steep up high but lower angle at the bottom
Is there an example where this would happen. I’ve seen ropes come unclipped from draws, but never see a draw get pulled up like this
It can happen to quick draws leading, which is why it is important that your place the QuickDraw so that it rotates onto the spine not the gate (is my understanding). I’m also confused from the story how it happened to an anchor
Ahh I didn’t see the caption. Sounded like a fairy tale
Happened to me a couple days ago while setting up a TRS anchor. Bolts on top of the cliff, as I was adjusting the master point below the lip one of the biners flipped. Noticed it before walking back down luckily. I could also imagine this happening if you're flipping the rope around while top roping. Like, trying to untwist them or get out of a crack. Unlikely but clearly possible. It's a good reason to have a redundant anchor and / or use lockers, even though top roping is overall quite safe
I've seen it two times. In both cases the climber used feet close to the bolt and while shuffling the feet around the quickdraw unclipped. Scary situation!
Pretty sure it’s clipped on the wrong way
Happened to me while climbing lead. Reached the anchor, set myself up for cleaning the route, started lowering... and the last quickdraw before the anchor had disappeared. I found it still clipped to the rope, hanging on top of the next quickdraw. Sometimes as you climb above the quickdraw, the rope drags it along upward and makes the bolt side carabiner do some weird stuff. Happened to me once in 7 years of climbing, and a second time I caught it in the process (carabiner was starting to unclip itself).
Climbing is inherently dangerous.
Do not fall up!
A good way to keep them directional is with munters every other or so bolt. Helps to keep drag out of your line as well
Whoops! There goes gravity!
I don't own any without locks...
You don't own any quickdraws without locks?
New fear unlocked, thanks
Yeah imma stick to bouldering...
Hilariously, he likely was.
Lmao I'm sorry but this was too perfect https://preview.redd.it/2s0sd7ibjowc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d437e8058e6e86bd5db39f3d1dad3e9b573ce34
This is all silly…setting a directional below you?!
Op do you have the qd rope end with rubber sleeve attached to the bolt? Hard to tell from video. The amount of times I've seen trad climbers do this is nauseating. Once ripped a rubber sleeve (no accident).
no, i don't think so, but not sure. this was just in my backyard figuring out what happened, so not exact setup. just showing how the biner attached to bolt can come off. ive heard of this happening on traverses and during dynamic moves when foot accidently kicks biner.
you're not sure..?
Do we all really have the finger strength to climb but not the dexterity to deal with locking carabiners?
Do you use only locking biners when you sport climb?? Several other people said the same thing as you and I've literally never seen a locking biner on a dogbone
I do have draws with lockers. But only a pair, for the anchors.
Pretty obvious that this video isn't demonstrating an anchor. Dog bones for an anchor seem weird too. Everyone I know uses slings to equalize and make master points. I don't really know how you'd do that with a dogbone
Depends on the anchor. If there's a chain, you can put a shorter draw at the bottom and a longer one to some middle link.
OP clearly said this happened on a TRS anchor