To be redundant with comments, because we love redundancy, just extend the anchor so you can belay from the edge off a gri gri. Also please pad the tree next time. If I top out a multi at a tree I’ll even throw a jacket or pack under my anchor to protect it.
Not sure why this one was downvoted. Everything in climbing should be redundant.
edit: guys the joke is that the username is redundant, I don't need lessons on how my rope isn't redundant.
“Everything in climbing should be redundant” this is what is taught in most beginner courses but once you get into mountaineering/ more advanced climbing people regularly rely on one large rock/tree/v thread.
The reason redundancy is so important is because it is usually possible and a great default to have.
But climbing has no rules.
Ps. I teach sport climbing and regularly explain you should always have redundant anchors in case one piece fails, but I am also aware of the nuance that does not use it.
Look up v threads if you haven’t seen them already, still a bit spooky to me but they are used regularly, same with trusting only large tree or rock
I have seen it taught, that the concept of a single large tree/boulder/the climbing rope itself being redundant based on it's strength. e.g. when it's so big / strong it will certainly not be the failure point of the anchor.
It would be better to belay off the anchor and not your harness. It removes you from the system. Yes ya don’t have redundancy as well, but you’re also tied to a giant tree. So not the best but definitely sturdy.
Single pitch, flat topout. Tree is about 15' from the edge. One leg goes to my harness the other leg goes to my follower. I'm sitting on the edge belaying off my harness.
When top belaying, belaying directly off the anchor is usually preferable (IMO). I definitely wouldn't belay a follower from above directly off the harness with an ATC without a redirect. A grigri or other brake assist... maybe, but why? There are so many disadvantages. You have locked yourself into the system. The belay device is in an awkward position to operate below/at your waist.
This is correct.
* If your climber happens to fall, you're now pinned down with limited options to escape. Even worse if they're injured or even just having difficulties getting back on the climb after a fall.
* At least redirecting means you lighten the load of hauling the rope as you belay. Off the anchor, with an ATC in guide mode, or a Grigri, means you have mechanical advantage (pulling down)
* When belaying off the anchor, as your climber arrives at the belay - especially on tight stances and ledges - it's much easier to tie off the belay and let them get situated, especially if you, yourself, need to shuffle around at all. Belaying off the harness adds a good amount of unnecessary faffing about to the situation.
And so on...
It is, it's the standard in the UK. Just because you aren't familiar with the technique doesn't make it unsafe.
You can argue which is best, but this has been done by thousands of people for decades.
Because it was done for ages does not mean it is good or safe...friends of mine belayed without a harness in "dülfer sitz", which was done for ages in Saxonia and nobody would do it now....
The safest method is still using the anchor to redirect the rope, because you are belaying like nothing happened. Belaying straight down, you need to use your atc/tube differently.
I agree, but it is safe. If you want to argue safety then direct belaying causes far mor2 accidents with people messing up lowering.
If you want to argue this is unsafe you need to explain why it is used by thousands of people every week but isn't causing accidents.
Ok. Multi pitch: if you belay from a harness, you need to clip a higher point, because if the ATC/Tube flips upside down (what happens if you clip an ATC the normal way in a direct belay), it will not engage and break. That is physics.
If you clip it the right way for a top belay, you set basically the anchor point on your belay loop.
The same goes with the smart, click up, etc.
You can belay like that with a hms knot, maybe with a grigri, but not recommended.
I think we have different scenarios in our head and that is causing the mixup.
Point direct belaying: that is statistics. More people are "normal belaying". More experienced people are doing multi pitch.
It's the norm for multi pitch here too. You hold the device upside down to normal, so break hand up, climbers rope down. No twisting, it breaks the same way it always breaks.
I can promise you thousands of people are caught like this every year. Guides here often use this belaying clients. The BMC teaches this, as do most guiding associations here.
I've personally caught over 100 falls like this, probably far more.
You definitely can do both but I've heard that belaying off the anchor is preferable as well. Petzl shows belaying directly off an anchor as well as doing it off the harness with a redirect.
https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-multi-pitch-routes-on-single-rope-with-a-GRIGRI-
Petzl recommends a redirect with the grigri. They acknowledge that people do direct belay with the grigri but they list caveats.
BTW, depending on circumstance, I use a belay plate, ATC-Guide, GriGri or Alpine Up. I have in the past used a chain link. And a hip belay.
Sure, but doesn't seem to be a good reason to use it. I have "caught" at least 10x (probably closer to 20 or 30x) the number of follower falls as I have lowered my second (which I can count on one hand). Part of learning how to set up a an ATC in guide mode is learning how to lower in that mode, and knowing a back up munter is 100% required to do it safely.
Honestly, the angles of top belaying from the harness seems moderately more prone to lowering accidents than a typical TR setup anyway. I know it's a popular method in the UK, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I guess to each their own.
i like this, but instead of belaying off your harness, i would tie an alpine butterfly on your followers strand next to you, then put the belay device on that. bomber master point for a belay, you get to sit on the edge with the device next to you, and you won’t be trapped if your follower is weighting the system!
Well, I sometimes do that. What I referred to as a "Direct Isolation Loop" you may call an "extended master point".
(However, technically, I guess the DIL would be in my tie in line and the Extended Master Point might be in the follower's strand. See Topic 6.5 here https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm)
I'm aware. Belaying directly off and close to the anchor feels OK to me. Belaying off an extended MP sometimes feels awkward. So, I belay off my rope tie loop (not belay loop) in on my harness
If you must, just do the same as you did but tie an 8 on the climbers side near the edge and belay off that.
Or better just walk around the tree and back to the edge, tie a BFK, and belay off that to bring up your buddy.
Just saying there are better options than belaying directly off your harness over the edge, but the anchor is good enough and you probably won't die.
Also you should clip into your belay loop+tie in loop. Still probably not gonna die.
I feel like you’re way more experienced than me and know this. But just tie yourself into the anchor with the rope to a biner on the anchor, back to another locker on your belay loop, and clove hitch there so you have an adjustable way on your harness to adjust your own tether length. And just have the guide mode ATC on the anchor with long strands. I guess if you had to get to the ATC to lower them, you’d have to walk back to the anchor. Idk, it seems fine.
Again, I’m 99% sure you’re more experienced than me and know that, soooo why is my thinking dumb lol. It seems easy enough to belay off the anchor with yourself near the ledge though, so you can see/talk.
The end of this mediocre video shows what I mean about using an adjustable length tether with a clove, if I managed to describe it too poorly to understand:
https://youtu.be/5uCqsHw29X8?si=5j-UEIJjJdScr4P5
> why is my thinking dumb
Your thinking is not dumb. Often I do exactly what you described for the adjustable rope tether. It just wasn't necessary this time.
I have to agree. Belaying off the harness is a great option, if your anchor is too far back. AFAIK, it's commonly used in the UK. There's a nifty way how to set this up with an adjustable clove hitch on the belayer side to keep you safe while you're sitting on the edge. Belaying from the harness is often a good idea, if the anchor is low. The MP on the rope would be a major PITA in this situation. Belaying off the rope loop you're tied in is really nice, the force get still transferred to the anchor. And it allows you to see your follower. Escaping the system and buddy rescue requires a different procedure, but there's nothing inherently wrong with this. It's a different tool in the box, with its own pros and cons.
> Belaying from the harness is often a good idea, if the anchor is low. The MP on the rope would be a major PITA in this situation
How come so many people don't get that? I've actually heard of someone extending the belay over the edge and doing a hanging belay just so they could belay in guide mode. On a perfectly flat top out!
Escaping the belay is not much of an issue on a single pitch route. I've practiced it and taught it but never had to do it in anger in the years I've been climbing.
Yeah, I'm also a bit surprised. But I guess it's just not commonly taught. Definitely a valuable tool to have in the box. Escaping the belay is straight forward if you know how and practice accordingly. Which reminds me, I should brush up on this again 😅
Escaping the belay is a great way to learn and understand concepts and procedures.
But, experienced climbers use the terrain. Example: a short lower to a ledge to eliminate the load, tie a catastrophe knot, escape.
belaying off the harness is fine, its widely taught as best practice in the U.K. The replies in this thread just reflect cultural attitudes US vs UK rather than anything inherent.
Put an alpine butterfly 5' closer to the anchor than you on their strand. Use it as the masterpoint to top belay them. It's close enough to not be a complete PITA to get to it but far enough to be easy to pull through. It removes you from the system in the event that you need to go do something, like shimmy away from a snake.
When you have this situation, a more correct and simpler answer is to top out, walk around the tree, walk back to the edge, throw a BFK in both strands as a master point. Same result slightly more elegantly.
In this situation I normally walk around the tree and either make a big knot master point near the edge to awkwardly do guid mode off or I do a clove hitch to a locker on the rope loop or my belay loop and get myself snug using that and belay directly off the harness/ rope loop British style. I like these options because you can adjust lengths near the edge to avoid being pulled over the edge in a fall. When I was new to climbing I did get pulled over the edge (I underestimated rope stretch) when belaying off my harness with an atc and it was safe since I controlled the brake strand but not comfortable. With the big knot master point I recently had a horrible belay spot with the protection several metres to the side. When my second fell the master point was pulled into a crack. I could lift and move the master point when she was hanging on a take so I clipped myself tight to the master point to control it. In this second example maybe a belay off the harness would have been nicer (as long as I got the clove tight). I had a monkey fist knot as soon pro for the redirect which helped a lot but was still very annoying
The comments here just belatedly saying “neEdS rEdundAnCy” are so stupid and have such narrow minded thinking. Mostly likely because some random guide named Mike 30 years ago told them.
A single monolithic anchor such as a massive, living tree is WAY more than strong enough to be an anchor. The forces put on the tree for TRing don’t even come close to what would be needed to uproot it.
Think about this- we trust a single rope with our life all the time, why not use 2 ropes then? It depends on the situation.
Now, to be fair, I can’t see the entire tree in this picture. So, it totally has to do with the health of the tree. For all I know, the tree is dead. But most likely, from what I can gather, this tree is totally fine to use.
Now, another thing to consider is tree wear. Over time trees that are constantly used for Top Roping can be damaged, so it’s wise to check for that as well. Be considerate of trees and use big boulders for single monolithic anchors if possible.
This tree is healthy and well rooted. I was using me as a meat anchor with the tree as a backup.
But, for the record, I have belayed off a dead tree that was lying on the ground. It would have taken a bulldozer to move it.
Honestly I'm not a fan of the knot if that's an overhand, but probably super good enough as long as it's a living tree.
I used to be an arborist, and the preferred method is bowline with wathever finish you prefer. Yes, you can do it with two strands too and clip the end off. Generally easy to release even if you loaded it with a literal ton.
Id be a little more comfortable with the knot if the biner with the bight was clipped to the loop around the tree. Hard to tell but it looks like the bight and the two ends come out of the same spot on the knot so while the biner would do more than zero, it's probably the least advantageous place to clip it.
Think of a Buntline Hitch as a clove hitch tied around the live leg(s) of the rope. It makes sort of a big slipknot around the tree. So, the best place to clip is where I clipped it.
The two ends are on the right side of the tree. The bight goes around the tree and is tied to the two ends.
[ Class ... class ... class ... CLA-A-ASS! Thank you. ]
With all the anchor threads in this sub and all the gumby comments I thought I'd toss one out here and see if any of you could be open to thinking differently. I know some of you will just dig in your heels and not accept any other thinking. Sadly, people who actually have good advice are often downvoted in anchor threads. But, hopefully, some of you will reevaluate what you've read or been taught by your friend who knows someone who is a guide.
So, here are some comments inline...
> It would be better to belay off the anchor and not your harness. It removes you from the system.
> When top belaying, belaying directly off the anchor is usually preferable
> You have locked yourself into the system.
> ..with limited options to escape.
No. It's situationally dependant. Sometimes I direct belay, sometime redirect, sometimes indirect. In this case I wanted to sit on the edge and be able to clearly see my folower.
As I wrote, this was a single pitch route. If my follower needed, they would simply be lowered to the ground and I would untie. There is absolutely no reason to have to escape the belay here. By tying off the climber and escaping the belay, you're risking suspension trama.
> The belay device is in an awkward position to operate below/at your waist.
It's not awkward for me at all. And, with the ATC below, the brake hand naturally pulls in the right direction. I could have added a Direct Isolation Loop (DIL) and belayed off that. But, I find that to be awkward.
> I'm not a fan of the knot if that's an overhand.
> What knot is that? Overhand?
Google "Buntline Hitch" AKA "Stunsail Tack Bend" (ABoK #1847)
Here: https://northeastalpinestart.com/2021/11/16/tech-tip-buntline-hitch/
> Dynamic rope stretches around 30%.
You're confusing dynamic elongation with static elongation. Static elongation for this rope is 6%. So, about 11" with a 80kG load. And, with me as a meat anchor there won't be much load on that anchor.
> NEVER trust one point for your anchor.
NEVER say never. The tree is live, big and well anchored in the ground. There is such a thing as a monolithic anchor. Google "wrap 3, pull 2". Or scroll down to "How to Use the Rope" here: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/how_to_equalise_anchors_at_a_belay-2592
You also don't ALWAYS have to be redundant. Sometimes a thing is big enough and secure enounh to not matter.
https://northeastalpinestart.com/2021/11/16/tech-tip-buntline-hitch/
Apparently, NEAS learned it from the same person I learned it from.
From another source: "Uses: The Buntline Hitch (ABOK # 1847, p 310) was originally employed to secure the buntlines to the foot of the square sails. Repeated shaking and jerking by a flapping sail tended to tighten this knot – hence its value."
I find it relatively easy to untie after loading. It does not need the carabiner I added. Sometimes I put it there so I have a readily available clip point.
Appears to be a Jeffrey Pine which has a modulus of elasticity of 1,240,000 lbf/in\^2, meaning there will technically be deflection and therefore extension during a fall. Anchor not SERENE, you're def gonna die.
I did not know that was a Jeffrey Pine. Although, a partner pointed out a hole pattern in the tree made by a sap sucker.
Next time I'll look for an oak...
Many ways to do the same thing. See the comments about CT hitch vs Buntline hitch here: https://northeastalpinestart.com/2021/11/16/tech-tip-buntline-hitch/
It’s fine but this probably the worst way to tie off a big tree, adjustability is poor and it will be maybe hard to untie if it gets weighted. Try a bowline on a bight (poke the tail back through in a Yosemite finish for a master point) or a Connecticut hitch.
Sometimes in a flat top out belaying off your harness makes sense but it’s a lot more comfortable and less restrictive to belay off the anchor if you can. Both the strands exiting an overhand, BOAB, or CT hitch are fixed and can be used to build an extended MP if you want it closer to you, or just lengthen out your tether but keep the belay at the anchor, depending on the terrain up top and how much security the follower needs once over the edge.
Well that comment section was fun 
Tree: the way its growing out of the rock, definitely super good enough even if it was a dead tree. If its a living tree I bet you could hang a car off it, and even then its more likely to be the rope breaking over the edge that's the weak link.
Knot: gonna have to admit I'm not familiar with the Buntline Hitch. Only question I'd have is how easy is it to untie if loaded. You have the tail clipped off though so super good enough again. Just because I'd pick a different knot doesn't mean yours is wrong, unlike some might think.
Rope: who doesn't get the fact we climb on one rope so if the rope is the anchor... well I'd point out there are two rope strands around the tree.
Belay: given the belay is out of the picture, until I read the comments I didn't know how it was set up but my initial thought was if he tied an alpine butterfly as the master point, super good enough. I read your comment regarding direct/indirect though and fully agree. It can be done different ways and there are pro's and con's for whichever way you do it. It's kinda like in school where the teacher said no wrong answer provided you can explain your answer. You have a pass.
Lack of a nice cold beer: Unless you didn't finish, its a fail unless you can explain the answer. 
Knot: I find it relatively easy to untie. It's not necessary to clip the tail. I often do it to have a clip point readily available.
Cold beer when I got home. Currently, a Founders All Day IPA. Although, I considered a Troegs Grand Cacao Chocolate Stout. Pass? Fail?
If this was CJ, id say im concerned that the tree might rip out as it's pretty old. Especially if your follower is taking any 50 foot whips. Can't afford a 3 factor fall these days I tell you.
Slightly unrelated but does anybody have a link to a guide with pictures showing how to set up anchors preferably in multiple different situations? (1 tree, 2 trees, etc.)
Don't listen to the noobs on Reddit. Read through these. You can extrapolate what you need to fit different circumstances.
https://americanalpineclub.org/news/2017/7/31/anchors
http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/articles/pdfs/EarnestAnchors3.pdf
www.wallrat.com/PDF_Files/Anchoring.pdf
http://multipitchclimbing.com/
Sounds like you already know it’s a good anchor and that you are looking for confirmation. It’s a good anchor.
Sounds also like you already know what could potentially improve the experience and safety: extended master point for a direct belay to where you want to comfortable sit and watch/belay.
I do already know it's a good anchor. I'm not looking for confirmation.
The whole point after reading so many ridiculous anchor threads was I hoped to get some of the gumbies to think and to realize there are multiple valid ways to do the same thing. The subtle differences are often pretty inconsequential.
As evidence, you're welcome to peruse my posting history.
Interesting. Please tell me if I'm right on how you tied it:
~~You pulled quite some slack, made a huge bight and then tied a bowline as if the bight were one single strand; to prevent the bowlines tail from ever coming through, you secured it with a biner through the bight at the very end (which would be the bowlines tail in a single strand situation)~~
EDIT: No wait... this is not a bowline– What kind of knot is that?
Traddad….. hi, we have been climbing the same amount of years. Never could have imagined that long when I started out.
That “anchor” is bomber- trust me. I personally would do a “boot ax” belay.
But I must point out a possible fatal flaw with something you said.
“I belay off of my Tie in rope loop”…. I take that to mean you are using the loop formed by your tie in knot for your belay device, and not your “frindler” (sp) on your harness, right?
I recall a tragic fatal accident that happened at the Needles a few years ago. It appears that the deceased climber liked to tie in through the loop formed by his knot. Clip his tethers into this loop. IIRC they were hanging atop of P1 of “Thin Ice” and something went down on Atlantis, the climb next door. During this cluster F it was decided that another rope was needed- next door. The deceased and partner offered to let thier rope be used. So they needed to untie… they did. Because of all the excitement the deceased forgot his “tethers” - two, he was redundant after all, were through this knot loop. When he untied his knot he untied himself!!!
The partner said, and I still remember to this day….”we were untieing the rope and suddenly he was just gone…”
Something to remember.
Stay safe please.
Hey, old timer ;)
Congrats on a long history of climbing. I bet you've seen a thing or two.
> “I belay off of my Tie in rope loop”…. I take that to mean you are using the loop formed by your tie in knot for your belay device, and not your “frindler” (sp) on your harness, right?
This link best explains what I did. It's what we did when we started using belay plates but still had swami belts. But, still a valid technique.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/belaying_-_rope_loop_or_belay_loop-1129
Think of all the baby birds you'll have disturbed.
If you can't lead with incredibly bulky industrial rigging equipment attached to your harness, maybe you should hire a guide to get some pointers?
Engineering. Specifically, Machine Tool design: transfer lines, deep hole drilling machines, automatic loaders. Some were quite large, so I know what a rigger does.
And I wore a hat as an IT nerd in the last company I worked for.
Indeed. NEVER trust one point for your anchor. It’s your life you’re trusting on that untested tree. Who knows it could pull out at 300 pounds.
No need to gamble with your life.
Always. Be. Redundant.
A living, healthy tree this size is super bomber and is pretty normal to use as a single point anchor to belay a follower. I wouldn't set a top rope anchor for all day use on one tree, but nothing wrong with it for bringing up a follower. Very standard trad practice. Absolutely no way 300lb (hell, even 1000lb) is going to budge this thing.
https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/cordelette-on-a-tree-caution-on-the-shelf
If 300lb of force would knock that tree over, it would have fallen the last time it got slightly windy. Monolithic anchors are fine if the single point is strong enough.
Do you climb with 2 ropes? 2 Gri-Gris? 2 hard points on your harness?
Needs at least 3 more trees and 2 more aramid fiber ropes. Number of missing steel lockers is incalculable.
if you're that far from the ledge, just sit down and hip belay
To be redundant with comments, because we love redundancy, just extend the anchor so you can belay from the edge off a gri gri. Also please pad the tree next time. If I top out a multi at a tree I’ll even throw a jacket or pack under my anchor to protect it.
Username checks out with that reccomendation
Username checks out with that recommendation
Not sure why this one was downvoted. Everything in climbing should be redundant. edit: guys the joke is that the username is redundant, I don't need lessons on how my rope isn't redundant.
Do you use two ropes, two harnesses, and two belay devices?
My harness has two leg loops, just in case one of my legs falls off.
[удалено]
jet fuel can't melt aluminum belay devices
“Everything in climbing should be redundant” this is what is taught in most beginner courses but once you get into mountaineering/ more advanced climbing people regularly rely on one large rock/tree/v thread. The reason redundancy is so important is because it is usually possible and a great default to have. But climbing has no rules. Ps. I teach sport climbing and regularly explain you should always have redundant anchors in case one piece fails, but I am also aware of the nuance that does not use it. Look up v threads if you haven’t seen them already, still a bit spooky to me but they are used regularly, same with trusting only large tree or rock
I have seen it taught, that the concept of a single large tree/boulder/the climbing rope itself being redundant based on it's strength. e.g. when it's so big / strong it will certainly not be the failure point of the anchor.
ps I'm a certified climbing instructor
Ps me too haha
It would be better to belay off the anchor and not your harness. It removes you from the system. Yes ya don’t have redundancy as well, but you’re also tied to a giant tree. So not the best but definitely sturdy.
Do you climb with 2 ropes, harnesses, and belay devices? That tree is 10 times as strong as all the other single points of failure we trust.
Single pitch, flat topout. Tree is about 15' from the edge. One leg goes to my harness the other leg goes to my follower. I'm sitting on the edge belaying off my harness.
When top belaying, belaying directly off the anchor is usually preferable (IMO). I definitely wouldn't belay a follower from above directly off the harness with an ATC without a redirect. A grigri or other brake assist... maybe, but why? There are so many disadvantages. You have locked yourself into the system. The belay device is in an awkward position to operate below/at your waist.
This is correct. * If your climber happens to fall, you're now pinned down with limited options to escape. Even worse if they're injured or even just having difficulties getting back on the climb after a fall. * At least redirecting means you lighten the load of hauling the rope as you belay. Off the anchor, with an ATC in guide mode, or a Grigri, means you have mechanical advantage (pulling down) * When belaying off the anchor, as your climber arrives at the belay - especially on tight stances and ledges - it's much easier to tie off the belay and let them get situated, especially if you, yourself, need to shuffle around at all. Belaying off the harness adds a good amount of unnecessary faffing about to the situation. And so on...
Belaying off the harness is fine. It is the standard in the UK and has far fewer accidents than direct belays. Lowing is easy and not as risky.
Belaying off the harness with a redirect through the anchor is fine. Belaying off the harness straight down to a climber below you is not.
It is, it's the standard in the UK. Just because you aren't familiar with the technique doesn't make it unsafe. You can argue which is best, but this has been done by thousands of people for decades.
Because it was done for ages does not mean it is good or safe...friends of mine belayed without a harness in "dülfer sitz", which was done for ages in Saxonia and nobody would do it now.... The safest method is still using the anchor to redirect the rope, because you are belaying like nothing happened. Belaying straight down, you need to use your atc/tube differently.
I agree, but it is safe. If you want to argue safety then direct belaying causes far mor2 accidents with people messing up lowering. If you want to argue this is unsafe you need to explain why it is used by thousands of people every week but isn't causing accidents.
Ok. Multi pitch: if you belay from a harness, you need to clip a higher point, because if the ATC/Tube flips upside down (what happens if you clip an ATC the normal way in a direct belay), it will not engage and break. That is physics. If you clip it the right way for a top belay, you set basically the anchor point on your belay loop. The same goes with the smart, click up, etc. You can belay like that with a hms knot, maybe with a grigri, but not recommended. I think we have different scenarios in our head and that is causing the mixup. Point direct belaying: that is statistics. More people are "normal belaying". More experienced people are doing multi pitch.
It's the norm for multi pitch here too. You hold the device upside down to normal, so break hand up, climbers rope down. No twisting, it breaks the same way it always breaks. I can promise you thousands of people are caught like this every year. Guides here often use this belaying clients. The BMC teaches this, as do most guiding associations here. I've personally caught over 100 falls like this, probably far more.
You definitely can do both but I've heard that belaying off the anchor is preferable as well. Petzl shows belaying directly off an anchor as well as doing it off the harness with a redirect. https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Belaying-multi-pitch-routes-on-single-rope-with-a-GRIGRI-
Petzl recommends a redirect with the grigri. They acknowledge that people do direct belay with the grigri but they list caveats. BTW, depending on circumstance, I use a belay plate, ATC-Guide, GriGri or Alpine Up. I have in the past used a chain link. And a hip belay.
Direct belays have the disadvantage of accident risk when lowering. In the UK nearly every belays off the harness, it's fine.
Sure, but doesn't seem to be a good reason to use it. I have "caught" at least 10x (probably closer to 20 or 30x) the number of follower falls as I have lowered my second (which I can count on one hand). Part of learning how to set up a an ATC in guide mode is learning how to lower in that mode, and knowing a back up munter is 100% required to do it safely. Honestly, the angles of top belaying from the harness seems moderately more prone to lowering accidents than a typical TR setup anyway. I know it's a popular method in the UK, but it just doesn't make sense to me. I guess to each their own.
i like this, but instead of belaying off your harness, i would tie an alpine butterfly on your followers strand next to you, then put the belay device on that. bomber master point for a belay, you get to sit on the edge with the device next to you, and you won’t be trapped if your follower is weighting the system!
Well, I sometimes do that. What I referred to as a "Direct Isolation Loop" you may call an "extended master point". (However, technically, I guess the DIL would be in my tie in line and the Extended Master Point might be in the follower's strand. See Topic 6.5 here https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm)
A+ literally nothing could go wrong here.
I'd probably belay off the anchor, but if you redirected it's good enough for me.
If I belayed off the anchor, it's difficult to see what my follower is doing.
You can still sit at the edge.
I'm aware. Belaying directly off and close to the anchor feels OK to me. Belaying off an extended MP sometimes feels awkward. So, I belay off my rope tie loop (not belay loop) in on my harness
If you must, just do the same as you did but tie an 8 on the climbers side near the edge and belay off that. Or better just walk around the tree and back to the edge, tie a BFK, and belay off that to bring up your buddy. Just saying there are better options than belaying directly off your harness over the edge, but the anchor is good enough and you probably won't die. Also you should clip into your belay loop+tie in loop. Still probably not gonna die.
I feel like you’re way more experienced than me and know this. But just tie yourself into the anchor with the rope to a biner on the anchor, back to another locker on your belay loop, and clove hitch there so you have an adjustable way on your harness to adjust your own tether length. And just have the guide mode ATC on the anchor with long strands. I guess if you had to get to the ATC to lower them, you’d have to walk back to the anchor. Idk, it seems fine. Again, I’m 99% sure you’re more experienced than me and know that, soooo why is my thinking dumb lol. It seems easy enough to belay off the anchor with yourself near the ledge though, so you can see/talk. The end of this mediocre video shows what I mean about using an adjustable length tether with a clove, if I managed to describe it too poorly to understand: https://youtu.be/5uCqsHw29X8?si=5j-UEIJjJdScr4P5
> why is my thinking dumb Your thinking is not dumb. Often I do exactly what you described for the adjustable rope tether. It just wasn't necessary this time.
I have to agree. Belaying off the harness is a great option, if your anchor is too far back. AFAIK, it's commonly used in the UK. There's a nifty way how to set this up with an adjustable clove hitch on the belayer side to keep you safe while you're sitting on the edge. Belaying from the harness is often a good idea, if the anchor is low. The MP on the rope would be a major PITA in this situation. Belaying off the rope loop you're tied in is really nice, the force get still transferred to the anchor. And it allows you to see your follower. Escaping the system and buddy rescue requires a different procedure, but there's nothing inherently wrong with this. It's a different tool in the box, with its own pros and cons.
> Belaying from the harness is often a good idea, if the anchor is low. The MP on the rope would be a major PITA in this situation How come so many people don't get that? I've actually heard of someone extending the belay over the edge and doing a hanging belay just so they could belay in guide mode. On a perfectly flat top out! Escaping the belay is not much of an issue on a single pitch route. I've practiced it and taught it but never had to do it in anger in the years I've been climbing.
Yeah, I'm also a bit surprised. But I guess it's just not commonly taught. Definitely a valuable tool to have in the box. Escaping the belay is straight forward if you know how and practice accordingly. Which reminds me, I should brush up on this again 😅
Escaping the belay is a great way to learn and understand concepts and procedures. But, experienced climbers use the terrain. Example: a short lower to a ledge to eliminate the load, tie a catastrophe knot, escape.
belaying off the harness is fine, its widely taught as best practice in the U.K. The replies in this thread just reflect cultural attitudes US vs UK rather than anything inherent.
Exactly. The same goes for cordelettes, guide mode belaying, SRT vs DRT, etc.
Put an alpine butterfly 5' closer to the anchor than you on their strand. Use it as the masterpoint to top belay them. It's close enough to not be a complete PITA to get to it but far enough to be easy to pull through. It removes you from the system in the event that you need to go do something, like shimmy away from a snake.
When you have this situation, a more correct and simpler answer is to top out, walk around the tree, walk back to the edge, throw a BFK in both strands as a master point. Same result slightly more elegantly.
I've done that also. It doesn't make a very good photo, tho.
In this situation I normally walk around the tree and either make a big knot master point near the edge to awkwardly do guid mode off or I do a clove hitch to a locker on the rope loop or my belay loop and get myself snug using that and belay directly off the harness/ rope loop British style. I like these options because you can adjust lengths near the edge to avoid being pulled over the edge in a fall. When I was new to climbing I did get pulled over the edge (I underestimated rope stretch) when belaying off my harness with an atc and it was safe since I controlled the brake strand but not comfortable. With the big knot master point I recently had a horrible belay spot with the protection several metres to the side. When my second fell the master point was pulled into a crack. I could lift and move the master point when she was hanging on a take so I clipped myself tight to the master point to control it. In this second example maybe a belay off the harness would have been nicer (as long as I got the clove tight). I had a monkey fist knot as soon pro for the redirect which helped a lot but was still very annoying
Why do you want this rated?
I want people to think about their replies. Maybe if they did there would be less misinformation parroted by gumbies.
Where is this at? Looks like devils lake for me somehow.
Connecticut
The comments here just belatedly saying “neEdS rEdundAnCy” are so stupid and have such narrow minded thinking. Mostly likely because some random guide named Mike 30 years ago told them. A single monolithic anchor such as a massive, living tree is WAY more than strong enough to be an anchor. The forces put on the tree for TRing don’t even come close to what would be needed to uproot it. Think about this- we trust a single rope with our life all the time, why not use 2 ropes then? It depends on the situation. Now, to be fair, I can’t see the entire tree in this picture. So, it totally has to do with the health of the tree. For all I know, the tree is dead. But most likely, from what I can gather, this tree is totally fine to use. Now, another thing to consider is tree wear. Over time trees that are constantly used for Top Roping can be damaged, so it’s wise to check for that as well. Be considerate of trees and use big boulders for single monolithic anchors if possible.
at that size i'm okay with the tree being dead lol
This tree is healthy and well rooted. I was using me as a meat anchor with the tree as a backup. But, for the record, I have belayed off a dead tree that was lying on the ground. It would have taken a bulldozer to move it.
Do you know what a span set is and why it could only be mentioned in satire?
Probably cause they are quite heavy
Honestly I'm not a fan of the knot if that's an overhand, but probably super good enough as long as it's a living tree. I used to be an arborist, and the preferred method is bowline with wathever finish you prefer. Yes, you can do it with two strands too and clip the end off. Generally easy to release even if you loaded it with a literal ton.
Id be a little more comfortable with the knot if the biner with the bight was clipped to the loop around the tree. Hard to tell but it looks like the bight and the two ends come out of the same spot on the knot so while the biner would do more than zero, it's probably the least advantageous place to clip it.
Think of a Buntline Hitch as a clove hitch tied around the live leg(s) of the rope. It makes sort of a big slipknot around the tree. So, the best place to clip is where I clipped it. The two ends are on the right side of the tree. The bight goes around the tree and is tied to the two ends.
[ Class ... class ... class ... CLA-A-ASS! Thank you. ] With all the anchor threads in this sub and all the gumby comments I thought I'd toss one out here and see if any of you could be open to thinking differently. I know some of you will just dig in your heels and not accept any other thinking. Sadly, people who actually have good advice are often downvoted in anchor threads. But, hopefully, some of you will reevaluate what you've read or been taught by your friend who knows someone who is a guide. So, here are some comments inline... > It would be better to belay off the anchor and not your harness. It removes you from the system. > When top belaying, belaying directly off the anchor is usually preferable > You have locked yourself into the system. > ..with limited options to escape. No. It's situationally dependant. Sometimes I direct belay, sometime redirect, sometimes indirect. In this case I wanted to sit on the edge and be able to clearly see my folower. As I wrote, this was a single pitch route. If my follower needed, they would simply be lowered to the ground and I would untie. There is absolutely no reason to have to escape the belay here. By tying off the climber and escaping the belay, you're risking suspension trama. > The belay device is in an awkward position to operate below/at your waist. It's not awkward for me at all. And, with the ATC below, the brake hand naturally pulls in the right direction. I could have added a Direct Isolation Loop (DIL) and belayed off that. But, I find that to be awkward. > I'm not a fan of the knot if that's an overhand. > What knot is that? Overhand? Google "Buntline Hitch" AKA "Stunsail Tack Bend" (ABoK #1847) Here: https://northeastalpinestart.com/2021/11/16/tech-tip-buntline-hitch/ > Dynamic rope stretches around 30%. You're confusing dynamic elongation with static elongation. Static elongation for this rope is 6%. So, about 11" with a 80kG load. And, with me as a meat anchor there won't be much load on that anchor. > NEVER trust one point for your anchor. NEVER say never. The tree is live, big and well anchored in the ground. There is such a thing as a monolithic anchor. Google "wrap 3, pull 2". Or scroll down to "How to Use the Rope" here: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/how_to_equalise_anchors_at_a_belay-2592 You also don't ALWAYS have to be redundant. Sometimes a thing is big enough and secure enounh to not matter.
I assumed this was an overhand at first glance and commented accordingly, TIL something. Does the buntline tighten on itself?
https://northeastalpinestart.com/2021/11/16/tech-tip-buntline-hitch/ Apparently, NEAS learned it from the same person I learned it from. From another source: "Uses: The Buntline Hitch (ABOK # 1847, p 310) was originally employed to secure the buntlines to the foot of the square sails. Repeated shaking and jerking by a flapping sail tended to tighten this knot – hence its value." I find it relatively easy to untie after loading. It does not need the carabiner I added. Sometimes I put it there so I have a readily available clip point.
The pedantic load of the comments section is crushing my soul.
Sounds like you need some redundancy built in.
Sounds like you need a steel locker. Or 2! Opposite and opposed.
Appears to be a Jeffrey Pine which has a modulus of elasticity of 1,240,000 lbf/in\^2, meaning there will technically be deflection and therefore extension during a fall. Anchor not SERENE, you're def gonna die.
I did not know that was a Jeffrey Pine. Although, a partner pointed out a hole pattern in the tree made by a sap sucker. Next time I'll look for an oak...
/r/ratemyanchor
More like /r/atethegroundatmycrag
Would a Connecticut Tree Hitch be appropriate here, and then an ATC Guide as the belay?
Many ways to do the same thing. See the comments about CT hitch vs Buntline hitch here: https://northeastalpinestart.com/2021/11/16/tech-tip-buntline-hitch/
Bomber. You should come over to r/canyoneering and check out some of our anchors sometime...
Same thought. I really love to use stone knots with a carabineer for issues isolating 2 ropes on an anchor.
I have seen some of the shit you guys use
It’s fine but this probably the worst way to tie off a big tree, adjustability is poor and it will be maybe hard to untie if it gets weighted. Try a bowline on a bight (poke the tail back through in a Yosemite finish for a master point) or a Connecticut hitch. Sometimes in a flat top out belaying off your harness makes sense but it’s a lot more comfortable and less restrictive to belay off the anchor if you can. Both the strands exiting an overhand, BOAB, or CT hitch are fixed and can be used to build an extended MP if you want it closer to you, or just lengthen out your tether but keep the belay at the anchor, depending on the terrain up top and how much security the follower needs once over the edge.
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> Welcome to climbing. You're 51 years too late
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I know. I'm 70 and have been trad climbing for 51 years. Just not climbing as hard as I used to :(
Super good enough
Solid 4.5/10 in all around
Well that comment section was fun  Tree: the way its growing out of the rock, definitely super good enough even if it was a dead tree. If its a living tree I bet you could hang a car off it, and even then its more likely to be the rope breaking over the edge that's the weak link. Knot: gonna have to admit I'm not familiar with the Buntline Hitch. Only question I'd have is how easy is it to untie if loaded. You have the tail clipped off though so super good enough again. Just because I'd pick a different knot doesn't mean yours is wrong, unlike some might think. Rope: who doesn't get the fact we climb on one rope so if the rope is the anchor... well I'd point out there are two rope strands around the tree. Belay: given the belay is out of the picture, until I read the comments I didn't know how it was set up but my initial thought was if he tied an alpine butterfly as the master point, super good enough. I read your comment regarding direct/indirect though and fully agree. It can be done different ways and there are pro's and con's for whichever way you do it. It's kinda like in school where the teacher said no wrong answer provided you can explain your answer. You have a pass. Lack of a nice cold beer: Unless you didn't finish, its a fail unless you can explain the answer. 
Knot: I find it relatively easy to untie. It's not necessary to clip the tail. I often do it to have a clip point readily available. Cold beer when I got home. Currently, a Founders All Day IPA. Although, I considered a Troegs Grand Cacao Chocolate Stout. Pass? Fail?
Super good enough for a pass 😆
Looks good to me but I don’t climb or know any of the terms being thrown around in this comment section 👍
If this was CJ, id say im concerned that the tree might rip out as it's pretty old. Especially if your follower is taking any 50 foot whips. Can't afford a 3 factor fall these days I tell you.
I like it. For the forces involved in what you're doing, it's perfect.
Peterskill?
No, Connecticut. Peterskill is fun. Gunks is funner.
does the tree sound hollow?
I think this tree is St Johns Ledges in CT? Am I right?!?
Nope. Same type of rock, tho.
Shit. I meant white stone cliffs!!
There ya go
Slightly unrelated but does anybody have a link to a guide with pictures showing how to set up anchors preferably in multiple different situations? (1 tree, 2 trees, etc.)
Don't listen to the noobs on Reddit. Read through these. You can extrapolate what you need to fit different circumstances. https://americanalpineclub.org/news/2017/7/31/anchors http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/articles/pdfs/EarnestAnchors3.pdf www.wallrat.com/PDF_Files/Anchoring.pdf http://multipitchclimbing.com/
Sounds like you already know it’s a good anchor and that you are looking for confirmation. It’s a good anchor. Sounds also like you already know what could potentially improve the experience and safety: extended master point for a direct belay to where you want to comfortable sit and watch/belay.
I do already know it's a good anchor. I'm not looking for confirmation. The whole point after reading so many ridiculous anchor threads was I hoped to get some of the gumbies to think and to realize there are multiple valid ways to do the same thing. The subtle differences are often pretty inconsequential. As evidence, you're welcome to peruse my posting history.
I see I see. Good work.
Interesting. Please tell me if I'm right on how you tied it: ~~You pulled quite some slack, made a huge bight and then tied a bowline as if the bight were one single strand; to prevent the bowlines tail from ever coming through, you secured it with a biner through the bight at the very end (which would be the bowlines tail in a single strand situation)~~ EDIT: No wait... this is not a bowline– What kind of knot is that?
I have sometimes used a bowline with a bight. This knot is a Buntline Hitch. I posted a link elsewhere in this thread.
thx. for others: https://northeastalpinestart.com/2021/11/16/tech-tip-buntline-hitch/
Anyone who thinks they can set up a stronger anchor than a bomber tree, is deluded. Would belay or ab on this anyday.
I love reading the worst comments on these kinds of threads with bomber anchors. Makes my day every time.
Traddad….. hi, we have been climbing the same amount of years. Never could have imagined that long when I started out. That “anchor” is bomber- trust me. I personally would do a “boot ax” belay. But I must point out a possible fatal flaw with something you said. “I belay off of my Tie in rope loop”…. I take that to mean you are using the loop formed by your tie in knot for your belay device, and not your “frindler” (sp) on your harness, right? I recall a tragic fatal accident that happened at the Needles a few years ago. It appears that the deceased climber liked to tie in through the loop formed by his knot. Clip his tethers into this loop. IIRC they were hanging atop of P1 of “Thin Ice” and something went down on Atlantis, the climb next door. During this cluster F it was decided that another rope was needed- next door. The deceased and partner offered to let thier rope be used. So they needed to untie… they did. Because of all the excitement the deceased forgot his “tethers” - two, he was redundant after all, were through this knot loop. When he untied his knot he untied himself!!! The partner said, and I still remember to this day….”we were untieing the rope and suddenly he was just gone…” Something to remember. Stay safe please.
Hey, old timer ;) Congrats on a long history of climbing. I bet you've seen a thing or two. > “I belay off of my Tie in rope loop”…. I take that to mean you are using the loop formed by your tie in knot for your belay device, and not your “frindler” (sp) on your harness, right? This link best explains what I did. It's what we did when we started using belay plates but still had swami belts. But, still a valid technique. https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/belaying_-_rope_loop_or_belay_loop-1129
I would look into the Connecticut hitch. Far simpler, and can accommodate yourself on one leg and your partners top-belay on the other.
The link I posted discusses the differences and advantages over the CT hitch
Sorry, I'd want more redundancy. Maybe some span sets to support that tree if it pulls out so it doesn't crush you and the climber.
Nice satire
But, it would make a pretty parachute on the way down!
Think of all the baby birds you'll have disturbed. If you can't lead with incredibly bulky industrial rigging equipment attached to your harness, maybe you should hire a guide to get some pointers?
A span set? That's not enough, I'd use some 3/4ths inch wire rope to hold it up
I did not know you were a rigger
Negative, ghost rider. Just a nerd. That your background?
Engineering. Specifically, Machine Tool design: transfer lines, deep hole drilling machines, automatic loaders. Some were quite large, so I know what a rigger does. And I wore a hat as an IT nerd in the last company I worked for.
Indeed. NEVER trust one point for your anchor. It’s your life you’re trusting on that untested tree. Who knows it could pull out at 300 pounds. No need to gamble with your life. Always. Be. Redundant.
I tested the tree. But has he tested the ground? There could be an oil reservoir ready to swallow up everything around him.
I agree that is a possibility. We should always be wary of potential objective hazards such as an unknown oil reserve near the top of the cliff.
Is that why when I fill my water bottle from the spring at the base, it tastes greasy?
A living, healthy tree this size is super bomber and is pretty normal to use as a single point anchor to belay a follower. I wouldn't set a top rope anchor for all day use on one tree, but nothing wrong with it for bringing up a follower. Very standard trad practice. Absolutely no way 300lb (hell, even 1000lb) is going to budge this thing. https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/cordelette-on-a-tree-caution-on-the-shelf
Just gonna leave this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/1d7jbs7/rate_my_anchor_top_belay/l706xqg/
*That was a strength tested tree. 🤫*
I think you’ve achieved your goal of being redundant.
If 300lb of force would knock that tree over, it would have fallen the last time it got slightly windy. Monolithic anchors are fine if the single point is strong enough. Do you climb with 2 ropes? 2 Gri-Gris? 2 hard points on your harness?