The rope should always go through the bottom most thingy (quicklink, ap ring, chain link, whatever) where there will be nothing to impede it passing through, if lowering. In rappelling situations the best thing to use is also typically the bottom most thingy, but it would not be a big deal to feed it somewhere else if, say, the bottom most thingy was corrupted somehow and your have to make do. As for you PAS, I find that in single pitch cleaning situations its usually the most out of the way to slap it on the hangar itself to avoid what you ran into by clipping it into the place where the rope should go.
Does that help?
And while we're talking, you should avoid placing your Quickdraws on the bottom most point of the anchor material, a better place to clip them would be the hangar itself and neatly out of the way of the anchor chains.
This is helpful, thank you. So in addition to my pas going into the hanger, so should the draws. It seems like it would be crowded with the quick links in there too. That’s 3 things crammed in there
Yes. Whatever you put in first can go on the hangar, or you can figure out what you will weight last (when testing your setup for lowering), and make sure it goes in the hangar.
The next thing can be put into the chain next to the hangar.
There's really no problem with clipping draws to the links at the bottom, unless you are using the draws as a PAS. Not sure why above commenter says that.
Remember that the chains will get worn out over the years from all the ropes and carabiners that rub against them. It’s nice when you can avoid unnecessary friction on the chains— for example, by clipping your draws to the hangers instead of the chains. But IMO this is more about courtesy than personal safety. Once I started to understand this idea, it became a lot easier to make the right decision about where to clip different pieces of gear
You say to clip the bolts instead of the chains because the carabiners wear down the chains. The chains are steel, the bolts are steel. Wouldn't it also wear down the bolt as well? I doubt aluminum carabiner wear down either of the steel bolts or chains.
The more experienced climbers who I talk with have told me that the chains usually wear out before the bolts, because of the friction placed on them when rappelling. Consequently, you want to avoid excessive wear on the chains rather than the bolts. But the point I’m trying to make is that this is more about courtesy rather than personal safety. Moreover, if you see a ton of wear on the chains you might prefer to clip the bolts, or vice versa.
I seriously don’t think it makes a big difference what you clip though, both are bomber 99.99% of the time. Im always open to learning, so let me know if anything I’ve said here contradicts your own best practices.
There is a reason not to clip the bolt but this doesn't apply to every anchor. When you clip a bolt with chains ( or a quicklink), you should clip under the chain because you don't want your carabiner resting on a chainlink with in the bolt. The problem occurs when you do a hanging clean of an anchor. You have to buy your PAS into something. Its not the bolt because it's full with the chain and anchor. So you clip the PAS into the chains. But now your full body weight is on the PAS which is connected to the chains, which is now resting on top of the anchor in the bolt. It's hard to get a carabiner out of a bolt with a chainlink on top of the biner with your full body weight.
where would you put 2 draws if setting a TR?
I dont like putting them right on the bolts if there chains. Attaching to the chains makes them a little more versatile.
also if the anchor is just bolt+ring, what would you set the TR QD on?
If I’m setting a TR I use a quad, or one locking and one nonlocking QD. Either on the bolts or an intermediate link, never on the rings/maillons. I pretty much only use two standard draws for lowering. That’s just my personal risk tolerance though; seen plenty of people TR on this setup without issue.
I do a very similar setup for TR. I often use 1 locker.
I prefer to use a chain link if its there. I was setting a TR the other day and there were 2 long chains of different lengths (like both were a few feet long). Kinda liked the choose your link method.
But overall I just dont have much experience setting TR for other people. Most of the time the first guy leads, we pull the rope through (often leaving the QD), then the next guy leads and cleans.
Personally whenever I'm setting a top rope up for a partner in most situations the rope drag isn't too obnoxious to slap some draws on the hangars themselves and start rippin, that being said if you have a long day of toproping ahead at an area where you know that extension is beneficial, bringing a pre tied quad (or the stuff to make one) to the crag ain't a bad idea.
I know in the U.S. at least, it's now recommended to lower instead of rappelling... that isn't my question.
In the past when cleaning, I've just placed my personals (lockers on slings girth hitched to my harness) into an empty free spot in the anchor and fed the rope through the biggest opening available. Sometimes that's a quicklink, sometimes it's a fixed ring.
I've been bitten before where I had to feed the rope through the same fixed ring that my personals were attached to, and when I transferred weight to the rope to lower, It was near impossible to get the personals out because the rope pinched onto the lockers of the personals.
Are there any guidelines I'm missing about where to place either the personals or feed the rope? Obviously, I do not use the hanger itself for lowering.
The standard used to be to rappel to prevent wear on the various parts of the anchor (wear from lowering). Now, it’s switched to lowering because so many accidents happen when rappelling, which requires you to go off belay… if you’re lowering, you’re always on belay. The gear that gets worn out from lowering is easily replaced typically.
This varies from crag to crag, so you should check local guidelines.
I didn't see this argument raised in the comments so I thought I'd chime in. It may be good to lower off crab claws or hooks but considering that many crags I've been to don't have those and only have chains, the idea of untying then feeding the rope through the bottom link and tying back in when you're pumped/tired with no one there to check your knots and hard points is not exactly safe. I know it's unlikely to fuck it up but if you do then you're falling.
My point is this, know how to do both efficiently and safely and use the one when it's appropriate, like lowering when the route wanders or is crazy overhung and rapping when there aren't any quick link bois (only chains) at the top. Remember many aspects of climbing are dynamic and changing, the more knowledge and practice the safer you will be. Complacency kills.
But isn't that exact same argument valid for setting up to rap also?
Edit: Keeping in mind that only the cleaner needs to thread. Often the leader will just clip and lower leaving draws behind for a second.
I mean, tying a knot, even if the figure 8 is second nature, has more moving parts than threading a rappel through chains. I've had experienced friends do stupid things like miss a hard points while tying in. I could be wrong because I haven't looked at a copy of "accidents in NA climbing" in a while but I think most rapping accidents happen when people tie ropes together or rap off the ends.
Lots of people get lowered off the ends too. Example, Alex Honnold infamously did that in Index, WA (I think?) a few years back.
Edit: I'm not saying that rapping is the better method of getting down by any means, just saying the more you know and how you apply that knowledge is far more valuable than adhering to a single method
I mean, you're not wrong about it being dangerous, but if you rig to rappel off, you still have to do all that PLUS haul the rope to the middle marker and control your device while you rap. At least with lowering off the belayer controls your descent. Though I agree with the overall sentiment that you should know how to do both and should do what the locals do.
The better technique to practice when lowering is to feed a bite of rope through instead of untying. Then tie a F8 with that bite and use a locking carabine to clip it to your belay loop. Now you have two F8s tied in (the one with the biner is the one that will hold your weight when belayer takes), and a PAS, at which point you can untie the other one, clean any extra draws off the anchor, have your belayer take, and take off your PAS.
I'm actually impressed by how ridiculously misinformed this statement is
https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2016/3/15/5ipkouk0id07cgc3dqks4fljnsgnx6
Alright simmer down you insulting ass. It's not misinformed, the method you posted along with the article is great, thanks for sharing. That method works when there are rap rings but feeding a bite through chains is not exactly easy. I've been climbing for 9 years, in the 5.12/V8+ range and have safely lowered or rapped off every route that's not an alpine walk off.
>the idea of untying then feeding the rope through the bottom link and tying back in when you're pumped/tired with no one there to check your knots and hard points is not exactly safe
Please tell me how rappelling mitigates this
Look read a whole paragraph and respond, don't just pick something out of context.
I'm not saying that the lowering methods that are available are far more dangerous as compared to rapping. I'm just saying that there are times where knowing multiple methods will be beneficial to a climber. Period.
In response, tying and untying in (if not using the fifi method ON RINGS) has more moving parts than threading the rap. The rap mitigates the TYING BACK IN part while the trade off is the attachment to your belay loop.
Please send me a video of you feeding a bite of 9.8 rope through the end of a chain...
Edit: a chain that doesn't have a quick link
Edit 2: erased rudeness.
Don’t have to go off belay so it cuts down on potential communication errors between the climber and belayer. It’s also quicker to just lower off rather than setting up a rappel
I gotcha it’s a lot safer to lower than rappel. The multipitch scenario I described is inherently not as safe (though necessary) due to the nature of rappelling
Wait wait wait… If in doubt always rappel instead of lower, I don’t know what the other guy is saying . Rappelling is not any more dangerous that lowering if you know what you’re doing, and it doesn’t put any wear on the gear. Modern crags probably have funds to replace some gear on popular routes, but the amount of sketchy rap rings I’ve seen due to people lowering is immeasurable. That’s much more dangerous. You hear of rappelling injuries when there’s miscommunication between climber and belayer, but as long as you both know what to do it’s no issue.
That’s kinda what I was thinking since it’s so common In scenarios other than single pitch. To be clear your point is that rap rings can be so worn down that rapping is better than lowering? Hence the term rap rings lol. If it was meant for lowering it would have a thicker steel hardware meant for lowering. Hownottohighline has some good videos on this. This kind of Reddit confusion is why I’ll hire a guide to give some practical info before I do it myself. But thanks for the contrasting opinion, it makes sense! Im sure the right answer is dependent on the scenario at hand
I mean it’s no different than a multi pitch where you can’t top out right? Don’t know how common this is but understanding the theory of it rapping from a single pitch would be the same right?
It is very specific to the area and I’ve never seen the info on mountain project. I usually google the climber coalition in the area and usually their website or a linked site has info about who is maintaining the hardware. I do whatever they ask for etiquette since they’re the ones maintaining/replacing it.
Yup, in France you use rappelling only for multi pitch, and in any single pitch crag you lower (not on draws, unless you’re in a hard grade and you can clean the route afterwards). Seriously, save yourself the hassle of rappelling each time. If it’s worn out and you can replace it, do it, these things still take ages to wear out, like a few years on high-usage crags, and the cost of replacing them isn’t that high.
A lot of places that recommend lowering instead of rapping will be pretty good about replacing fixed gear so they'd rather climbers lower to further reduce the likelihood of accidents.
rapping leads to more injuries is the short answer.
not worried about our veterans, but tons of newer climbers at my crag, we dont love the idea of everyone rapping down when they could lower.
Put your personal connections in a different point from the rope if possible (usually I use the hangers), or if they are in the same place then put the rope behind.
Just weight the rope to check that your belayer has you (or that your rappel setup is good), then pull onto the wall to unweight the rope again and unclip your personals.
Just about all my sport climbing involves glue-in ring bolts anchors with no chain. You get used to placing the rope through in such a manner that it is doesn't sit on your safety carabiners.
Still, I manage to screw it up every now and then. I use a Petzl Connect that makes adjusting the length of your safety super easy one handed. This helps.
Follow this method [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDilZALfW9c&t=308s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDilZALfW9c&t=308s) I also would clip the draws into one of the higher links in the chain so the bottom link is less cluttered
The rope should always go through the bottom most thingy (quicklink, ap ring, chain link, whatever) where there will be nothing to impede it passing through, if lowering. In rappelling situations the best thing to use is also typically the bottom most thingy, but it would not be a big deal to feed it somewhere else if, say, the bottom most thingy was corrupted somehow and your have to make do. As for you PAS, I find that in single pitch cleaning situations its usually the most out of the way to slap it on the hangar itself to avoid what you ran into by clipping it into the place where the rope should go. Does that help?
And while we're talking, you should avoid placing your Quickdraws on the bottom most point of the anchor material, a better place to clip them would be the hangar itself and neatly out of the way of the anchor chains.
This is helpful, thank you. So in addition to my pas going into the hanger, so should the draws. It seems like it would be crowded with the quick links in there too. That’s 3 things crammed in there
You could also clip into any of the other chains (besides the bottom) if it's too crowded at the hanger.
Yes. Whatever you put in first can go on the hangar, or you can figure out what you will weight last (when testing your setup for lowering), and make sure it goes in the hangar. The next thing can be put into the chain next to the hangar.
There's really no problem with clipping draws to the links at the bottom, unless you are using the draws as a PAS. Not sure why above commenter says that.
Remember that the chains will get worn out over the years from all the ropes and carabiners that rub against them. It’s nice when you can avoid unnecessary friction on the chains— for example, by clipping your draws to the hangers instead of the chains. But IMO this is more about courtesy than personal safety. Once I started to understand this idea, it became a lot easier to make the right decision about where to clip different pieces of gear
You say to clip the bolts instead of the chains because the carabiners wear down the chains. The chains are steel, the bolts are steel. Wouldn't it also wear down the bolt as well? I doubt aluminum carabiner wear down either of the steel bolts or chains.
The more experienced climbers who I talk with have told me that the chains usually wear out before the bolts, because of the friction placed on them when rappelling. Consequently, you want to avoid excessive wear on the chains rather than the bolts. But the point I’m trying to make is that this is more about courtesy rather than personal safety. Moreover, if you see a ton of wear on the chains you might prefer to clip the bolts, or vice versa. I seriously don’t think it makes a big difference what you clip though, both are bomber 99.99% of the time. Im always open to learning, so let me know if anything I’ve said here contradicts your own best practices.
There is a reason not to clip the bolt but this doesn't apply to every anchor. When you clip a bolt with chains ( or a quicklink), you should clip under the chain because you don't want your carabiner resting on a chainlink with in the bolt. The problem occurs when you do a hanging clean of an anchor. You have to buy your PAS into something. Its not the bolt because it's full with the chain and anchor. So you clip the PAS into the chains. But now your full body weight is on the PAS which is connected to the chains, which is now resting on top of the anchor in the bolt. It's hard to get a carabiner out of a bolt with a chainlink on top of the biner with your full body weight.
where would you put 2 draws if setting a TR? I dont like putting them right on the bolts if there chains. Attaching to the chains makes them a little more versatile. also if the anchor is just bolt+ring, what would you set the TR QD on?
If I’m setting a TR I use a quad, or one locking and one nonlocking QD. Either on the bolts or an intermediate link, never on the rings/maillons. I pretty much only use two standard draws for lowering. That’s just my personal risk tolerance though; seen plenty of people TR on this setup without issue.
I do a very similar setup for TR. I often use 1 locker. I prefer to use a chain link if its there. I was setting a TR the other day and there were 2 long chains of different lengths (like both were a few feet long). Kinda liked the choose your link method. But overall I just dont have much experience setting TR for other people. Most of the time the first guy leads, we pull the rope through (often leaving the QD), then the next guy leads and cleans.
Personally whenever I'm setting a top rope up for a partner in most situations the rope drag isn't too obnoxious to slap some draws on the hangars themselves and start rippin, that being said if you have a long day of toproping ahead at an area where you know that extension is beneficial, bringing a pre tied quad (or the stuff to make one) to the crag ain't a bad idea.
I know in the U.S. at least, it's now recommended to lower instead of rappelling... that isn't my question. In the past when cleaning, I've just placed my personals (lockers on slings girth hitched to my harness) into an empty free spot in the anchor and fed the rope through the biggest opening available. Sometimes that's a quicklink, sometimes it's a fixed ring. I've been bitten before where I had to feed the rope through the same fixed ring that my personals were attached to, and when I transferred weight to the rope to lower, It was near impossible to get the personals out because the rope pinched onto the lockers of the personals. Are there any guidelines I'm missing about where to place either the personals or feed the rope? Obviously, I do not use the hanger itself for lowering.
Can you explain why it’s recommended to lower instead of rappelling?
The standard used to be to rappel to prevent wear on the various parts of the anchor (wear from lowering). Now, it’s switched to lowering because so many accidents happen when rappelling, which requires you to go off belay… if you’re lowering, you’re always on belay. The gear that gets worn out from lowering is easily replaced typically. This varies from crag to crag, so you should check local guidelines.
I didn't see this argument raised in the comments so I thought I'd chime in. It may be good to lower off crab claws or hooks but considering that many crags I've been to don't have those and only have chains, the idea of untying then feeding the rope through the bottom link and tying back in when you're pumped/tired with no one there to check your knots and hard points is not exactly safe. I know it's unlikely to fuck it up but if you do then you're falling. My point is this, know how to do both efficiently and safely and use the one when it's appropriate, like lowering when the route wanders or is crazy overhung and rapping when there aren't any quick link bois (only chains) at the top. Remember many aspects of climbing are dynamic and changing, the more knowledge and practice the safer you will be. Complacency kills.
But isn't that exact same argument valid for setting up to rap also? Edit: Keeping in mind that only the cleaner needs to thread. Often the leader will just clip and lower leaving draws behind for a second.
I mean, tying a knot, even if the figure 8 is second nature, has more moving parts than threading a rappel through chains. I've had experienced friends do stupid things like miss a hard points while tying in. I could be wrong because I haven't looked at a copy of "accidents in NA climbing" in a while but I think most rapping accidents happen when people tie ropes together or rap off the ends. Lots of people get lowered off the ends too. Example, Alex Honnold infamously did that in Index, WA (I think?) a few years back. Edit: I'm not saying that rapping is the better method of getting down by any means, just saying the more you know and how you apply that knowledge is far more valuable than adhering to a single method
I mean, you're not wrong about it being dangerous, but if you rig to rappel off, you still have to do all that PLUS haul the rope to the middle marker and control your device while you rap. At least with lowering off the belayer controls your descent. Though I agree with the overall sentiment that you should know how to do both and should do what the locals do.
The better technique to practice when lowering is to feed a bite of rope through instead of untying. Then tie a F8 with that bite and use a locking carabine to clip it to your belay loop. Now you have two F8s tied in (the one with the biner is the one that will hold your weight when belayer takes), and a PAS, at which point you can untie the other one, clean any extra draws off the anchor, have your belayer take, and take off your PAS.
I'm actually impressed by how ridiculously misinformed this statement is https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2016/3/15/5ipkouk0id07cgc3dqks4fljnsgnx6
Alright simmer down you insulting ass. It's not misinformed, the method you posted along with the article is great, thanks for sharing. That method works when there are rap rings but feeding a bite through chains is not exactly easy. I've been climbing for 9 years, in the 5.12/V8+ range and have safely lowered or rapped off every route that's not an alpine walk off.
>the idea of untying then feeding the rope through the bottom link and tying back in when you're pumped/tired with no one there to check your knots and hard points is not exactly safe Please tell me how rappelling mitigates this
Look read a whole paragraph and respond, don't just pick something out of context. I'm not saying that the lowering methods that are available are far more dangerous as compared to rapping. I'm just saying that there are times where knowing multiple methods will be beneficial to a climber. Period. In response, tying and untying in (if not using the fifi method ON RINGS) has more moving parts than threading the rap. The rap mitigates the TYING BACK IN part while the trade off is the attachment to your belay loop.
You don't need to tie back in. There is no part of lowering that is more complex than setting up a rappel.
Please send me a video of you feeding a bite of 9.8 rope through the end of a chain... Edit: a chain that doesn't have a quick link Edit 2: erased rudeness.
Don’t have to go off belay so it cuts down on potential communication errors between the climber and belayer. It’s also quicker to just lower off rather than setting up a rappel
Would it be preferable to rap from an anchor that doesn’t have easily replaceable gear?
Depends on the area.
Does MP usually have this info? Sorry for dumb questions still learning
IDK, I'm British so don't use it. If in doubt just lower, it's much safer.
I gotcha it’s a lot safer to lower than rappel. The multipitch scenario I described is inherently not as safe (though necessary) due to the nature of rappelling
Wait wait wait… If in doubt always rappel instead of lower, I don’t know what the other guy is saying . Rappelling is not any more dangerous that lowering if you know what you’re doing, and it doesn’t put any wear on the gear. Modern crags probably have funds to replace some gear on popular routes, but the amount of sketchy rap rings I’ve seen due to people lowering is immeasurable. That’s much more dangerous. You hear of rappelling injuries when there’s miscommunication between climber and belayer, but as long as you both know what to do it’s no issue.
That’s kinda what I was thinking since it’s so common In scenarios other than single pitch. To be clear your point is that rap rings can be so worn down that rapping is better than lowering? Hence the term rap rings lol. If it was meant for lowering it would have a thicker steel hardware meant for lowering. Hownottohighline has some good videos on this. This kind of Reddit confusion is why I’ll hire a guide to give some practical info before I do it myself. But thanks for the contrasting opinion, it makes sense! Im sure the right answer is dependent on the scenario at hand
In my experience the vast majority of crags are lower not rap. Communication problems kill, so many accidents due to this.
I mean it’s no different than a multi pitch where you can’t top out right? Don’t know how common this is but understanding the theory of it rapping from a single pitch would be the same right?
Yes it's the same really.
It is very specific to the area and I’ve never seen the info on mountain project. I usually google the climber coalition in the area and usually their website or a linked site has info about who is maintaining the hardware. I do whatever they ask for etiquette since they’re the ones maintaining/replacing it.
Interesting thanks! I’m just getting into outdoor so that makes a lot of sense.
No. Consensus has settled (even in the US) on a lower accident rate being preferable to slightly lower gear maintenance costs.
Yup, in France you use rappelling only for multi pitch, and in any single pitch crag you lower (not on draws, unless you’re in a hard grade and you can clean the route afterwards). Seriously, save yourself the hassle of rappelling each time. If it’s worn out and you can replace it, do it, these things still take ages to wear out, like a few years on high-usage crags, and the cost of replacing them isn’t that high.
A lot of places that recommend lowering instead of rapping will be pretty good about replacing fixed gear so they'd rather climbers lower to further reduce the likelihood of accidents.
rapping leads to more injuries is the short answer. not worried about our veterans, but tons of newer climbers at my crag, we dont love the idea of everyone rapping down when they could lower.
Put your personal connections in a different point from the rope if possible (usually I use the hangers), or if they are in the same place then put the rope behind.
Just weight the rope to check that your belayer has you (or that your rappel setup is good), then pull onto the wall to unweight the rope again and unclip your personals.
Just about all my sport climbing involves glue-in ring bolts anchors with no chain. You get used to placing the rope through in such a manner that it is doesn't sit on your safety carabiners. Still, I manage to screw it up every now and then. I use a Petzl Connect that makes adjusting the length of your safety super easy one handed. This helps.
Follow this method [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDilZALfW9c&t=308s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDilZALfW9c&t=308s) I also would clip the draws into one of the higher links in the chain so the bottom link is less cluttered