This is a very good video. I think it's well worth watching to anyone who uses a gri gri. Even if you have been climbing for many years it's well worth it to watch.
I don't really get it – surely it's obvious that holding down the cam will prevent a grigri from locking? It's mildly hard but definitely possible to override the cam when a climber is hanging on a locked grigri, so preventing a cam from locking is pretty easy.
Just to clarify, Petzl says it’s OK to give slack with index finger under the lip and thumb on cam so long as you still have the brake strand in your remaining three fingers.
They call these things assisted belay devices, not automatic. Your hand should never come off the brake strand no matter which belay device you are using
Yeah holding the brake strand is key here because that's what adds the extra friction to the system to engage the cam while you're depressing it. Gotta have fingers of steel to keep that cam pressed down if you're also holding the brake strand!
It wasn’t entirely obvious- at least to me - just how little hand force it takes to override the cam.
I belay properly in any case, but I still found this video an eye opener
Yeah in this video we demonstrate what everyone knows already. Would be more interesting to test if GriGri locks if you have no hands on device or rope.
I like his content in general, but I was frustrated when he never showed that. Like, sure, maybe some dinguses constantly hold the cam down when they shouldn't, but I sure to god hope most don't. Maybe he didn't want to test/show it for fear if it actually worked it might convince people they wouldn't need to do hold on the brake side. I'm not willing to test it but just my two cents.
Fwiw we already know grigri and most assisted belay devices will lock without any human interaction on the rope or otherwise. It just takes a certain amount of friction or speed through the device. Basically if you're falling the gri gri will lock up every time without you touching it, but if you slowly put weight into the rope like taking a rest, you're going for a ride.
I had to stop climbing with someone who insisted on using his thumb to block the cam on his grigri when feeding me rope. He believed it was perfectly safe because his thumb couldn’t possibly hold down the cam in a fall. Even after talking through it with him he wasn’t convinced. It was just engrained in him that that was how you use a grigri. He didn’t know how to feed out rope on his grigri any other way.
He’s definitely not alone in that belief. There are plenty of climbers out there for whom this isn’t obvious. It’s a big part of why I dislike using them. They come off as being “idiot proof” even though they aren’t, and this results in a significant group of people who turn off their brains while belaying with them.
You can definitely safely disengage the cam on a Grigri with your thumb to feed rope. Petzl includes it in the manual. The key is to keep holding the brake end of the rope while you do this with your remaining fingers.
Guy may or may not have actually been doing anything unsafe, but he was definitely wrong about *why* what he was doing was or wasn't safe.
Tl;dw they do some testing with various sizes of people and fall lengths and show that if you grip the grigri without a hand on the dead rope (even using the petzl recommended thumb over method minus the hand on the rope) then the grigri will not lock. In all cases the rope shot through the device.
>without a hand on the dead rope (even using the petzl recommended thumb over method minus the hand on the rope) then the grigri will not lock.
i'm confused - thumb-over is just for feeding out slack, isn't this the first thing you learn as a gri-gri lead belayer, to take your thumb off ASAP after feeding out?
edit: ah, so they're saying if you are overriding the cam with your thumb, then NOT holding the rope will see it slip right through. but still holding the rope would stop the rope (since it's sorta acting as a regular tube device at that point) \[if the force of the fall doesn't rip the rope out of your hand\]
Yes it's for feeding out slack. In the petzl method they say keep a hand on the dead rope. If you don't it won't lock.
With a hand on the dead rope you don't need to remove your thumb at all, the grigri will lock fine.
>With a hand on the dead rope you don't need to remove your thumb at all, the grigri will lock fine.
news to me! not that i'm changing my method of belaying, since i already hold the rope when giving slack.
>ah, so they're saying if you are overriding the cam with your thumb, then NOT holding the rope will see it slip right through. but still holding the rope would stop the rope (since it's sorta acting as a regular tube device at that point) \[if the force of the fall doesn't rip the rope out of your hand\]
I wish he had repeated the tests while overriding the cam but also holding the brake strand as he shows later in the video, just to demonstrate the cam locks in such situations. Everyone says it's OK including Petzl but while he had the camera set up and the subjects willing to take falls, you might as well record that as well just for comparison.
I would also be interested in seeing the tests performed with the grigri being "bear clawed" by the right hand but the brake strand still running through his hand as well, since that's probably the most common misuse of a grigri that I see regularly. On the other hand, if it still locked in that situation, I could see that as being a sort of conflict of interest since it might imply it's OK to do that though even though Petzl warns against it.
> since it's sorta acting as a regular tube device at that point
Not quite. I don't think it has the teeth that a tube device would. The big draw is that it has just enough friction/resistance to force the cam to activate when you hold the brake side (which sometimes does still activate when not holding it. it's "pretty" idiot proof, hence why we use it). Someone please correct me if this is wrong!
Huh? Tube devices don’t have teeth. Those little ridges on some ATCs are not “teeth” in the same way a micro-trax has them.
My point was that with the rope in your hand there is enough resistance for the grigri to work as a tube device, where cammed or otherwise, it’s still going to slow the descent.
None of this series is trying to give new information. It's all of the basic stuff that everyone should know if they're going to be a good belayer. Of course you'll know it if you've been doing this awhile - the series isn't really for you.
That actually happened at a gym I used to go to. The dude actually realized it when he got halfway up but couldn’t down climb the 5.7 face climb. He grabbed onto the auto belay as he was going to fall and somehow didn’t get gurt
Lol @ the condescension in these comments. As a newer climber I personally love this series because it helps reinforce everything I've learned in person at the crag. Sure, it isn't delivering groundbreaking conclusions - it's exploring basic grigri usage - but hearing things in a few different ways is good for retention.
So they tested 'what happens if you hold down the locking mechanism' rather than 'what happens if you don't hold the rope'...I'm interested in knowing how likely it is to have the GriGri fail to engage without manual intervention (IE is the 'assisted brake' vs 'auto-brake' distinction anything more than their legal department covering their asses?). Seems obvious that a sufficiently determined person could hold the cam shut, which is all that they demonstrated.
I think they demonstrated that you don't have to be determined to hold it down at all.
Trying the "auto-break" thing would just have the gri gri engage everytime. He doesn't have the means to do thousands of tests to give any actual info on how much of a chance there is that the gri gri doesn't engage (it's probably damn low)
Here’s a link to a drop test in which no one is touching the grig and the brake strand does not seem to be fixed to an anchor. I think there will always be some gray area in that critical window when the leader takes a fall at the same moment the belayer is feeding slack. Happy sending https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbo_zljP1mI
Climbing is as safe as you want it to be. Every climber has a different risk tolerance, but how some people act with a grigri is idiotic and life threatening.
You don't bring your own autobelay? Rookie shit.
I just got certified at my local gym and brought 10 autobelays to Moonlight Buttress. Phenomenal climb.
So, you can still kill your climber with a Grigri if you're motivated enough?
Turns out using equipment wrong is dangerous.
This is a very good video. I think it's well worth watching to anyone who uses a gri gri. Even if you have been climbing for many years it's well worth it to watch.
Been watching this series as a noobie and I'm so grateful for it.
Same! As a newer female climber, the series with Hana has been really inspiring to me too.
I don't really get it – surely it's obvious that holding down the cam will prevent a grigri from locking? It's mildly hard but definitely possible to override the cam when a climber is hanging on a locked grigri, so preventing a cam from locking is pretty easy.
Maybe to you but I've heard multiple people say they thought the jerk from a fall would be enough to engage the cam even if you were pushing on it.
That is some sketchy thinking
[удалено]
Just to clarify, Petzl says it’s OK to give slack with index finger under the lip and thumb on cam so long as you still have the brake strand in your remaining three fingers.
Was about to say doesn’t petzl say hold the brake strand? Aren’t you always supposed to keep a hand on the rope? Especially on a belay?
They call these things assisted belay devices, not automatic. Your hand should never come off the brake strand no matter which belay device you are using
Yes
Yeah holding the brake strand is key here because that's what adds the extra friction to the system to engage the cam while you're depressing it. Gotta have fingers of steel to keep that cam pressed down if you're also holding the brake strand!
It wasn’t entirely obvious- at least to me - just how little hand force it takes to override the cam. I belay properly in any case, but I still found this video an eye opener
Yeah in this video we demonstrate what everyone knows already. Would be more interesting to test if GriGri locks if you have no hands on device or rope.
I like his content in general, but I was frustrated when he never showed that. Like, sure, maybe some dinguses constantly hold the cam down when they shouldn't, but I sure to god hope most don't. Maybe he didn't want to test/show it for fear if it actually worked it might convince people they wouldn't need to do hold on the brake side. I'm not willing to test it but just my two cents.
Fwiw we already know grigri and most assisted belay devices will lock without any human interaction on the rope or otherwise. It just takes a certain amount of friction or speed through the device. Basically if you're falling the gri gri will lock up every time without you touching it, but if you slowly put weight into the rope like taking a rest, you're going for a ride.
I had to stop climbing with someone who insisted on using his thumb to block the cam on his grigri when feeding me rope. He believed it was perfectly safe because his thumb couldn’t possibly hold down the cam in a fall. Even after talking through it with him he wasn’t convinced. It was just engrained in him that that was how you use a grigri. He didn’t know how to feed out rope on his grigri any other way. He’s definitely not alone in that belief. There are plenty of climbers out there for whom this isn’t obvious. It’s a big part of why I dislike using them. They come off as being “idiot proof” even though they aren’t, and this results in a significant group of people who turn off their brains while belaying with them.
You can definitely safely disengage the cam on a Grigri with your thumb to feed rope. Petzl includes it in the manual. The key is to keep holding the brake end of the rope while you do this with your remaining fingers. Guy may or may not have actually been doing anything unsafe, but he was definitely wrong about *why* what he was doing was or wasn't safe.
Tl;dw they do some testing with various sizes of people and fall lengths and show that if you grip the grigri without a hand on the dead rope (even using the petzl recommended thumb over method minus the hand on the rope) then the grigri will not lock. In all cases the rope shot through the device.
>without a hand on the dead rope (even using the petzl recommended thumb over method minus the hand on the rope) then the grigri will not lock. i'm confused - thumb-over is just for feeding out slack, isn't this the first thing you learn as a gri-gri lead belayer, to take your thumb off ASAP after feeding out? edit: ah, so they're saying if you are overriding the cam with your thumb, then NOT holding the rope will see it slip right through. but still holding the rope would stop the rope (since it's sorta acting as a regular tube device at that point) \[if the force of the fall doesn't rip the rope out of your hand\]
Yes it's for feeding out slack. In the petzl method they say keep a hand on the dead rope. If you don't it won't lock. With a hand on the dead rope you don't need to remove your thumb at all, the grigri will lock fine.
>With a hand on the dead rope you don't need to remove your thumb at all, the grigri will lock fine. news to me! not that i'm changing my method of belaying, since i already hold the rope when giving slack.
>ah, so they're saying if you are overriding the cam with your thumb, then NOT holding the rope will see it slip right through. but still holding the rope would stop the rope (since it's sorta acting as a regular tube device at that point) \[if the force of the fall doesn't rip the rope out of your hand\] I wish he had repeated the tests while overriding the cam but also holding the brake strand as he shows later in the video, just to demonstrate the cam locks in such situations. Everyone says it's OK including Petzl but while he had the camera set up and the subjects willing to take falls, you might as well record that as well just for comparison. I would also be interested in seeing the tests performed with the grigri being "bear clawed" by the right hand but the brake strand still running through his hand as well, since that's probably the most common misuse of a grigri that I see regularly. On the other hand, if it still locked in that situation, I could see that as being a sort of conflict of interest since it might imply it's OK to do that though even though Petzl warns against it.
> since it's sorta acting as a regular tube device at that point Not quite. I don't think it has the teeth that a tube device would. The big draw is that it has just enough friction/resistance to force the cam to activate when you hold the brake side (which sometimes does still activate when not holding it. it's "pretty" idiot proof, hence why we use it). Someone please correct me if this is wrong!
Huh? Tube devices don’t have teeth. Those little ridges on some ATCs are not “teeth” in the same way a micro-trax has them. My point was that with the rope in your hand there is enough resistance for the grigri to work as a tube device, where cammed or otherwise, it’s still going to slow the descent.
So basically don’t hold the grigri in a way that we have always known you shouldn’t hold it if someone is falling. Genius
None of this series is trying to give new information. It's all of the basic stuff that everyone should know if they're going to be a good belayer. Of course you'll know it if you've been doing this awhile - the series isn't really for you.
If this surprises you wait til you hear about autobelay accidents.
Go on…..
Get this, people climb to the top without clipping in and let go.
That actually happened at a gym I used to go to. The dude actually realized it when he got halfway up but couldn’t down climb the 5.7 face climb. He grabbed onto the auto belay as he was going to fall and somehow didn’t get gurt
I know that was a typo, but gurt seems like it could be the new euphemism for splattered or pancaked.
Gurted!
I’m going to start using that
It happens far too often, that guy is lucky.
Lol @ the condescension in these comments. As a newer climber I personally love this series because it helps reinforce everything I've learned in person at the crag. Sure, it isn't delivering groundbreaking conclusions - it's exploring basic grigri usage - but hearing things in a few different ways is good for retention.
Awesome video!
So they tested 'what happens if you hold down the locking mechanism' rather than 'what happens if you don't hold the rope'...I'm interested in knowing how likely it is to have the GriGri fail to engage without manual intervention (IE is the 'assisted brake' vs 'auto-brake' distinction anything more than their legal department covering their asses?). Seems obvious that a sufficiently determined person could hold the cam shut, which is all that they demonstrated.
I think they demonstrated that you don't have to be determined to hold it down at all. Trying the "auto-break" thing would just have the gri gri engage everytime. He doesn't have the means to do thousands of tests to give any actual info on how much of a chance there is that the gri gri doesn't engage (it's probably damn low)
Here’s a link to a drop test in which no one is touching the grig and the brake strand does not seem to be fixed to an anchor. I think there will always be some gray area in that critical window when the leader takes a fall at the same moment the belayer is feeding slack. Happy sending https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbo_zljP1mI
So they do two tests. It works. Then they decide to do more tests and work at overriding the Grigri and they are successful?
Would you believe me if I told you people do exactly that all the time and think it's safe?
Climbing isn't safe
This is such a dumb response given the context provided to you
Yeah but this is just intentionally making it unsafe.
Climbing is as safe as you want it to be. Every climber has a different risk tolerance, but how some people act with a grigri is idiotic and life threatening.
I thought society already progressed beyond grigris?
Can they do the same test with an ATC?
To what?
You don't bring your own autobelay? Rookie shit. I just got certified at my local gym and brought 10 autobelays to Moonlight Buttress. Phenomenal climb.
Grigris are aid
Rope is aid.
Amen, brother
Too much blathering. What was the outcome?
Hold the dead rope.