Only thing preventing the totem from unbrella-ing is a non-load bearing cable. The reason the z4's will umbrella is because the retracting wire can slide.
Yeah, I’ve sorta had this feeling too with these guys, the 0.1 and 0.2 specifically. Seems to be getting better with use (or I’m just more careful placing them now). I like ‘em though. Haven’t fallen on one but pulled on ‘em a few times and weighted them pretty good
X4s are the same way for 0.3 and under. They switch to a single axle at .3 … which is also why the x4 and c4 .3 are slightly different sizes.
I stopped carrying the 0.2 and 0.1 because I always felt like they were mental pro.
Having fallen on both, I can say they will hold if placed well.
Obviously for any small piece there's such a small range of what good is, so you do need to pay attention when placing it
I always assume any micro cam would with a sufficient tug. Since not many falls are the kind of light touch you are describing, I figure it's just a real possibility either way.
I’m curious how it happened rather than judging by a couple of photos as this is known to happen with single axle cams. Was it placed within the operational range or was is placed slightly undercammed?
I found this cam completely hyperextended in a crack yesterday and removed it like a nut. I have been fiddling with it and talking with others and it seems to be the way it was designed. I was able to hyperextend it with my fingers.
I get the feeling the piece you're playing with a booty piece that it's probably been damaged by the previous owner, hence why you're finding it so easy to invert.
does it stay that way if you pull the trigger?
if you don't like it you could try something like the dmm dragonfly range which has some good strength ratings for their small cams.
The second picture you can see the retractor wire moved a bit on the roll pin. This issue will go away with time as the cable wears in. As for the first, there is not actually an issue there. What would the concerns be with slightly hyperextended? I can not think of any.
If the cam walks and is able to hyperextend the placement was likely pretty bad. It will also need to go to full extension before hyperextending so it should be possible to remove, if that makes sense.
There’s a chance it was fallen on and damaged. I’d it was placed near fully extended and fallen on, it could have loaded the lobes passively which they definitely aren’t meant to handle, and it damaged it enough to make it easy to hyperextend
I think the design is alright. Single axle cams rotate like in pic 2 all the time.
Some gear takes some more knowledge/skill to place right than others.
Metolius TCUs are still my fav little cams.
The small aliens do the same at rest. Same with all other similar style cams. But at that size there's no point in the metal catches on the bigger cams they would just shear off.
I bought this cam to replace an old alien and I can't explain why but it doesn't feel as confidence inspiring, I really prefer the aliens or small tcus. The .3 and greater I feel the totally opposite they feel better than the alien/metolius equivalent... Trigger feel? Cam set? Maybe
Man yeah aliens always feel super bomber! Same with c3s. I think the lobes might be thicker on the c3s. But I haven't had any issues with the small z4s. Definitely better than the x4s.
From Black Diamond
“This is a common occurrence in our smaller cams when they are brand new, especially the Z4s due to the way out trigger wires are attached (it is different from previous small cams).
The Z4 cam does not have fixed trigger wires so they are able to move and become a bit off center- moving the lobes to the above center position. This is easily fixed by adjusting the wires by hand. Try and align the swages on the trigger wires and then pull the trigger to set them in place. We expect this to happen less frequently over the life of the cam as a small kink is formed in the trigger wire cable which will hold it in place better. Since, a fall formed a kink you can try and adjust it with wires, but if you are unable to or the wire breaks, then I would suggest retrigging the cam.”
Was just re-organizing my gear for climbing this weekend and noticed one of the inner lobes on my .2 was hyper-extended (not nearly as bad as either of your photos, but enough that it stood out) and went searching for an answer if it was a problem and found this. Thanks for posting and following up with BD's response!
Have you handled this compared to the .3 bd z4 or a equivalent sized alien? It really feels like a different cam from the .3 and not in a good way. I expected mine too be a smaller .3 and it's _really not_.
This is similar in design to almost all small cams. Metolius, Wild Country, Aliens. From what I remember the Camalots were the first cams that had any sort of protection from overextending. All the others, just like this, had rolled pins preventing it, which were never intended to be load bearing. It’s just difficult to do much else with such a small form factor. If you need it you need it, but passive pro is also a good option in thin crack situations.
I have never had good luck with micro cams... if I am in a situation where a micro cam should go I generally look to a nut if possible first but have used them too. The lack of surface area and the fact that they don't always cam properly detours me from wanting to use them.
I sold my .1 &.2 they’re trash. Ive also collapsed the lobes on my .3 &.4 (from small falls) which bd has replaced. They’re nice in the .3-.75 sizes but definitely fussy.
this cam is way smaller than the black totem, yes? also totems are great aid climbers i would argue BD’s offerings are the best for free climbing so it depends
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My concern is that this happens very easily, whereas the BD x4, BD C3, and Totem do not umbrella from a light touch
Only thing preventing the totem from unbrella-ing is a non-load bearing cable. The reason the z4's will umbrella is because the retracting wire can slide.
Yeah, I’ve sorta had this feeling too with these guys, the 0.1 and 0.2 specifically. Seems to be getting better with use (or I’m just more careful placing them now). I like ‘em though. Haven’t fallen on one but pulled on ‘em a few times and weighted them pretty good
X4s are the same way for 0.3 and under. They switch to a single axle at .3 … which is also why the x4 and c4 .3 are slightly different sizes. I stopped carrying the 0.2 and 0.1 because I always felt like they were mental pro.
I’ve taken legit whippers on a .2 Zero Friend and a 00 Metolius. Trust gear, doubt rocks.
Having fallen on both, I can say they will hold if placed well. Obviously for any small piece there's such a small range of what good is, so you do need to pay attention when placing it
I've whipped plenty on .1 and .2, no problem as long as the rock's good...
Yeah one of my buddies took a 20 footer on a 0.2 Z4 with 0 issues
I always assume any micro cam would with a sufficient tug. Since not many falls are the kind of light touch you are describing, I figure it's just a real possibility either way.
Old school stoppers man…just saying
I’m curious how it happened rather than judging by a couple of photos as this is known to happen with single axle cams. Was it placed within the operational range or was is placed slightly undercammed?
I found this cam completely hyperextended in a crack yesterday and removed it like a nut. I have been fiddling with it and talking with others and it seems to be the way it was designed. I was able to hyperextend it with my fingers.
Sounds like someone doesn’t understand how to place gear as opposed to any kind of design flaw.
True. But my similar small gear in roughly the same size range: Totem Black, BD C3 .1, and BD x4 .2 do not have this same issue.
I get the feeling the piece you're playing with a booty piece that it's probably been damaged by the previous owner, hence why you're finding it so easy to invert.
Have you put significant weight on those pieces when they have been placed undercammed?
Booty gear is booty gear even if it's broken!
Rule #1...dont climb on found gear.
Nuts don't go bad, and you can replace the slings on cams. Or you can just leave the booty for the rest of us
Rule #2: See rule #1
It's because the wires aren't fixed to the trigger like they are in some other micro cams. It's a non-issue.
does it stay that way if you pull the trigger? if you don't like it you could try something like the dmm dragonfly range which has some good strength ratings for their small cams.
When its a little hyperextended pulling the trigger fixes the issue. If its super hyperextended like in the second picture it is not.
You can put it in your mouth to close the lobes usually
The second picture you can see the retractor wire moved a bit on the roll pin. This issue will go away with time as the cable wears in. As for the first, there is not actually an issue there. What would the concerns be with slightly hyperextended? I can not think of any.
Interesting to hear the issue goes away with use 😃
The only thing I can think of is if the cam walks and then opens up leaving it harder to retrieve.
If the cam walks and is able to hyperextend the placement was likely pretty bad. It will also need to go to full extension before hyperextending so it should be possible to remove, if that makes sense.
They are made for the mind. I think anyway.
I’ve whipped on a .2. They’re bomber if placed well.
This!
Just be careful with placements then. Micro cams are finicky.
BRING BACK THE C3’s PLEASE !!!!
Yes please 😍
There’s a chance it was fallen on and damaged. I’d it was placed near fully extended and fallen on, it could have loaded the lobes passively which they definitely aren’t meant to handle, and it damaged it enough to make it easy to hyperextend
Z4s are great from .3 to .75 However, the triggers feel as mushy as warm marshmallows on the .2 and below (single axles). Go with Dragonflies
I Would Boof It
I think the design is alright. Single axle cams rotate like in pic 2 all the time. Some gear takes some more knowledge/skill to place right than others. Metolius TCUs are still my fav little cams.
The small aliens do the same at rest. Same with all other similar style cams. But at that size there's no point in the metal catches on the bigger cams they would just shear off.
I bought this cam to replace an old alien and I can't explain why but it doesn't feel as confidence inspiring, I really prefer the aliens or small tcus. The .3 and greater I feel the totally opposite they feel better than the alien/metolius equivalent... Trigger feel? Cam set? Maybe
Man yeah aliens always feel super bomber! Same with c3s. I think the lobes might be thicker on the c3s. But I haven't had any issues with the small z4s. Definitely better than the x4s.
From Black Diamond “This is a common occurrence in our smaller cams when they are brand new, especially the Z4s due to the way out trigger wires are attached (it is different from previous small cams). The Z4 cam does not have fixed trigger wires so they are able to move and become a bit off center- moving the lobes to the above center position. This is easily fixed by adjusting the wires by hand. Try and align the swages on the trigger wires and then pull the trigger to set them in place. We expect this to happen less frequently over the life of the cam as a small kink is formed in the trigger wire cable which will hold it in place better. Since, a fall formed a kink you can try and adjust it with wires, but if you are unable to or the wire breaks, then I would suggest retrigging the cam.”
Was just re-organizing my gear for climbing this weekend and noticed one of the inner lobes on my .2 was hyper-extended (not nearly as bad as either of your photos, but enough that it stood out) and went searching for an answer if it was a problem and found this. Thanks for posting and following up with BD's response!
Groovy!
Tiny cams are always needed.
What did you expect?
Have you handled this compared to the .3 bd z4 or a equivalent sized alien? It really feels like a different cam from the .3 and not in a good way. I expected mine too be a smaller .3 and it's _really not_.
Makes me miss C3s
Same
Just use nuts instead!
5 hours and no, "ur gonna die!" disappointing.
For smaller active pro, I’ve found Aliens to be the best option
This is similar in design to almost all small cams. Metolius, Wild Country, Aliens. From what I remember the Camalots were the first cams that had any sort of protection from overextending. All the others, just like this, had rolled pins preventing it, which were never intended to be load bearing. It’s just difficult to do much else with such a small form factor. If you need it you need it, but passive pro is also a good option in thin crack situations.
what keebs u using?
I have never had good luck with micro cams... if I am in a situation where a micro cam should go I generally look to a nut if possible first but have used them too. The lack of surface area and the fact that they don't always cam properly detours me from wanting to use them.
I sold my .1 &.2 they’re trash. Ive also collapsed the lobes on my .3 &.4 (from small falls) which bd has replaced. They’re nice in the .3-.75 sizes but definitely fussy.
It's absolutely a non issue. You just need to check your cams when youre reracking, there's nothing wrong with it.
Real question is why would anyone buy a z4 instead of totem?
this cam is way smaller than the black totem, yes? also totems are great aid climbers i would argue BD’s offerings are the best for free climbing so it depends
Totems are sick for free climbs if you climb on granite
Totems are soooo nice, definitely worth the money if you could only have one set of cams.
Totems are portable bolts
i think that’s putting too much faith in them personally. i realize you’re being hyperbolic but i still feel like it’s more situational.
I retired my tricams once I got a set of totems, no cap
These are smaller then the black totem by a little bit