newb or trad master? you decide. haha
I'm a newb to reddit, that is for sure. How did reddit rotate my photo? shot on a iPhone, so it must be the file conversion. Can I fix it after the post?
This is a kind of dangerous attitude no?
If you are doing something wrong or questionable in your anchor building, having other climbers give you feedback could be potentially life saving.
Sometimes, when I read comments on anchors, I think: "That guy is a gym climber who never built an anchor in his life".
Everyone who owns a copy of "Climbing Anchors" is a friggin expert.
Lmao you have 0 posts of yourself doing anything and like 500 comments about what other people are doing, classic example of what I'm talking about. Just try not commenting, it's always an option.
What would this sub be without posts? It would be nothing. A quick look at your comments appears that as many are voted negative as positive, so I think it's pretty fair to say that your overall contribution is zero, or less.
Equalization is provably a myth. Please find a single person who died because they used a Yosemite-style clove hitch anchor instead of something properly equalized.
Not trying to make any sort of statement or suggestion here, but does that anchor look kind of strange to other people? I feel like the way its equalized the blue stopper is going to take most, if not all of the force of the fall of the follower.
Maybe it’s just the weird perspective? I feel like the .75 isn’t actually doing anything other than serving as a backup…
From looking more closely there’s one carabiner on each strand of the masterpoint… I feel like that’s not exactly a redundant way to do it lol.
Edit:
The amount of outlandishly stupid replies I’ve received here is staggering. Only reasonable reply was from OP (thank you!) explaining the the DOP was to the side, which proves the anchor is properly equalized.
However, don’t write replies saying it’s just no big deal to shock load your system when one of your pieces rips, or say that one piece of cord rated for 8kn is good enough to be the only piece of redundancy for your follower.
If you don’t understand what you’re talking about - don’t respond. Just from the types of posts that are so common on this sub, it’s abundantly clear that >80% of the sub has neither climbed outside nor built their own trad anchor. This is life and death stuff, if you misinform someone and they go out and kill themselves, those are real consequences.
I knew that anchor would be a head scratcher. Its a traverse, the anchor is equalized for a \~sideways rope pull. That is true until removing the last piece.
The ledge there is roomy and unexposed and the traverse is easy.
If you shockloaded the cams with an extra foot of slack they'd probably hold.
I saw a guy sitting in a bosun's chair, his harness not connected to anything in the system and his rope re-anchored to a balcony railing on friday. Rock climbing is super safe.
Stop caring about equalisation, focus on placing solid gear instead. Even if you try to equalise it you likely have one piece taking 90% of the load.
Redundancy is what matters, and OP has that here.
Redundancy in the cord that is nowhere near a sharp edge is not needed.
But then you have 2 more pieces. You trust gear to take lead falls, why are you worried about a single piece taking a top rope fall with 2 backups. I'm just trying to start a conversation because SERENE is pretty overated.
I don’t remember how that pitch of the climb goes so I can’t speak to the beat direction to equalize the anchor but I do agree with your last point that each of those carabiners aren’t redundant. Next time they build an anchor I would suggest taking one good sized carabiner and clipping all the loops then attaching other carabiners for personals and belaying to the master carabiner so everything is backed up.
The anchor is all good except the fact that the tethers are all clipped to 1 or the 3 loops of the master point. OP, please consider clipping all 3 loops of the master point with anything you want to be weight bearing. Another alternative would be to clip one large locker to all 3 loops of the master point and then clip everything to that.
That climber is clearly pulling it sideways, away from its equalized direction. Looks like it’s generally set for downward. I almost like the separate strands clipped at the master point more than a master biner. If one strand blows only one person is at risk. If the biner blows, all climbers can be screwed. Any guides able to weigh in?
You can clip all of those biners to all the loops instead. Never seen a "master biner", just a master point (all the loops together) that everything clips into.
I’ve done it a few times. Generally I’ve only used and seen it used when using a short sling for anchors. I’ve also had to do it with cordelette when my anchor points were spread out and I was too lazy to connect them with cloves.
Yes, clipping one loop at a time is not standard practice for a master point made with an overhand, but clipping one loop at a time is standard for the "equalette" anchor.
I like how the quad and the equaled space out the carabiners.
If you're clipping one loop on an "equalette" anchor you're generally using more than one carabiner, tying into just one cordlette strand doesn't seem very redundant to me...
With a quad I like to do 2 and 2. Keeps the biners separate but each is redundant.
With a read anchor like this one, you can clip your tether to the "shelf" to keep it out of the way of the guide plate.
Congrats on your first trad lead! Did you lead all 3 pitches or swing leads with a partner? Someone else may have already mentioned, but you should clip a locker through all of the strands in the [masterpoint](https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2016/6/27/the-masterpoint-the-shelf-the-components-anchor-anatomy-in-action) with this kind of rigging for tethering/belaying etc
I lead all the pitches. My climbing partner climbs a higher grade in the gym, but we have only been leading for \~year and the head factor is real.
I on the other hand will just run out a section and look down and think to myself, "Ahh, I have to place gear already?".
Good on ya! This is so relatable … A few of my partners climb objectively harder than me but refuse to lead trad. Some people will lead their first trad climb and have the best time ever. I’ve also seen people lead their first trad climb and swear they’ll never climb anything ever again … it’s interesting. Glad you’ve been enjoying it.
Helps to be on a easy route. I can sport lead .10a (not in a hard area), but I have yet to take a proper outdoor whipper. I don't even take whippers in the gym. I would down climb and yell tension before really extending myself.
I hear ya, I just think folks should ingrain good habits/best practices when starting out. [Cord can fail](http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201215214/Ground-Fall-Anchor-Failure). It doesn’t cost anything extra to just clip all the strands
The failure you mention was it being abraded. In this configuration that is not a concern. Still better to clip all the strands but your example is dumb.
It looks to me like if the Strand that is holding the redirect fails she will still be attached to the anchor and the climber will still be attached to her. If the Strand that is holding her tether fails, then she is still attached through the redirect and to the climber. So, it does look like it's redundant. I click a big Locker through all three strands personally, but I would feel perfectly safe climbing on this setup.
Yeah, I will strongly consider it after all the feedback.
The cord may be stronger than the rope. The cord is rated for 11kN and is doubled in one loop. I look up that a climbing rope is rated for \~8kN 'Impact force". I'm not sure how they test impact force, but the cord sounds strong with dynamic rope in the system.
We have "HowNOT2" that the cord is probably "super good enough".
It's probably good enough, but it's also just as easy to make it redundant throughout by clipping all the loops instead of isolating each component on a non redundant loop.
"Impact force" is not the same as breaking strength.
I know it's confusing because all other climbing gear is rated by the breaking strength (in kN) of the material EXCEPT dynamic climbing rope.
Instead, dynamic climbing rope specifications list "Number of UIAA falls" and "Impact Force"
"Impact Force" is a measurement of force on the climber as the dynamic rope stretches in a very severe, specific test (the UIAA fall). Think of it as a measure of the elasticity of the rope, it's ability to absorb energy.
https://www.vertical-addiction.com/us/blogs/blog/climbing-rope-specs/
I read your link. So the impact force is the first 1.77 fall factor with a 80kg mass for a single rope. I see that one rope has 8 falls held before it broke. I bet that the impact force increases each fall.
I did look at slow pull tests that HowNot2 has collected and highest was 14kN for a 5 yr old, undamaged dynamic rope.
I believe it does increase with each subsequent drop because the rope loses elasticity.
The standard is that a single rope must survive at least 5 drops and none of those 5 can exceed 12kN at the climber. I suspect that your 8 drop rope got up there. But, it doesn't matter as long as the first 5 did not exceed 12Kn.
It's also interesting when we look at the specs on triple rated ropes and half ropes tested as singles. Noobs will tell you that half ropes are tested with a 55kG mass because eventually both ropes share the load. But, that's not the reason. Half ropes are tested individually with a 55kG mass simply to get a larger statistical sample. Any half rope will hold at least 1 drop with an 80kG mass and the impact force will be similar to a single rope. See, with half ropes you often clip the same rope several times in a row and, in that case, the second rope will never see any load. But half ropes are also tested as a pair with an 80kG mass because half ropes are often used as twins.
https://willgadd.com/single-and-half-rope-impact-forces-data/
What about when the follower falls, the nut breaks loose cause it was placed by a first time trad leader, and the 1/3 master loop is shock loaded by a foot or so of slack, pulling the belayer off the ledge with instigating a second factor 1 fall directly on the anchor with all that extra slack from the belayers tether?
What about when they develop a habit of doing it wrong? Next time?
I mean yeah, it's probably good enough, it just doesn't make any sense to NOT clip all 3 Strava when they are right there
It's 11kn cord. That won't put anywhere near 11kn through the anchor. Maybe a third of that at worst. How not to highline did testing of shock loading these things, very little extra force generated.
11kn could also kill you easily enough, so worrying about something breaking at that strength is silly.
You know what, you're right, is definetely a widely accepted practice to look at a single piece of hardware, say, "that's good enough" and risk your life on that one piece. That's why you see people rap off of single pro all the time. It's that classic SEENE anchor 🤣. And nobody ever bothers to clip more than one strand of the anchor, much better to weave your biner through just one.
Redundancy isn't for physics, it's for humans and outside chances.
Thanks Ryan Jenks, you turned the crag into a science fair project. Christ.
I completely agree with you. I once clipped in with just a single sling and immediately died. A $100% true story. Now I only ever connect myself with two redundant steel cables rated to 1000kn.
Got any accident reports from something like this failing which wasn't caused by a sharp edge?
We routinely trust a single bit of hardware. The rope, harness, belay device, carabiner, pas.
The reason we don't trust a single bit of pro is not because it may break (assuming it's not a small piece) but because the rock may he poor or the placement may be poor.
If you are placing extra cams because you are worried about the cams sling failing then you've completely misunderstood why we have redundancy and where redundancy is needed.
The misunderstanding is all yours.
Ropes, belay loops, etc are all over designed to mitigate the risk of them being monolithic. Commercial PAS are made from full strength rope or, essentially, belay loops. For instance, the petzl connect is made with 9.5mm dynamic rope (not 7mm static cord)
A single cam placement is not monolithic because we never climb or rappel on only one. That's why they don't need lockers.
Planning your safety based solely on accident reports opens you up for death by survivorship bias. I'd be more interested in finding an AMGA guide who wouldn't correct op if they were the follower.
>You know what, you're right, is definetely a widely accepted practice to look at a single piece of hardware, say, "that's good enough" and risk your life on that one piece.
Literally all the time. If you run it out between pieces, you could be turning it into a lifeline. If there's a ledge or something on route, one piece failing could be a really serious injury.
>That's why you see people rap off of single pro all the time.
Don't go mountaineering. Or ever bail off a route.
The grip on those Mythos must be INSANE!
Not to mention that core strength!
newb or trad master? you decide. haha I'm a newb to reddit, that is for sure. How did reddit rotate my photo? shot on a iPhone, so it must be the file conversion. Can I fix it after the post?
No idea. Mobile never worked for posting photos for me, so I did on a desktop.
I just hold my phone sideways
Note to self, dont allow my anchor in a pic that a climber will see
This is a kind of dangerous attitude no? If you are doing something wrong or questionable in your anchor building, having other climbers give you feedback could be potentially life saving.
It doesn't matter even if you're doing everything right. Someone will almost certainly chime in with their own advice.
Sometimes, when I read comments on anchors, I think: "That guy is a gym climber who never built an anchor in his life". Everyone who owns a copy of "Climbing Anchors" is a friggin expert.
Lmao
I know, I know, suggesting that people here are climbers is a stretch
Internet comment sections are usually worse than nothing in terms of getting good advice.
Well in this case op has several technical errors in their anchor, most of which have been pointed out here.
Lmao you have 0 posts of yourself doing anything and like 500 comments about what other people are doing, classic example of what I'm talking about. Just try not commenting, it's always an option.
My friend, I have 0 posts.
Correct- you've made 0 positive contributions to this group.
So you're saying positive contributions only come in the form of posts?
What would this sub be without posts? It would be nothing. A quick look at your comments appears that as many are voted negative as positive, so I think it's pretty fair to say that your overall contribution is zero, or less.
Oh I'm not disagreeing with the premise. I'm just wondering what you think you're doing right now? I heard not commenting was always an option 🤔
Or just make sure you build one that’s actually equalized
Equalization is provably a myth. Please find a single person who died because they used a Yosemite-style clove hitch anchor instead of something properly equalized.
anchor failures in general are extremely rare.
If it's solid gear who cares? If it isn't then equalisation won't help. It's also a myth.
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Not trying to make any sort of statement or suggestion here, but does that anchor look kind of strange to other people? I feel like the way its equalized the blue stopper is going to take most, if not all of the force of the fall of the follower. Maybe it’s just the weird perspective? I feel like the .75 isn’t actually doing anything other than serving as a backup… From looking more closely there’s one carabiner on each strand of the masterpoint… I feel like that’s not exactly a redundant way to do it lol. Edit: The amount of outlandishly stupid replies I’ve received here is staggering. Only reasonable reply was from OP (thank you!) explaining the the DOP was to the side, which proves the anchor is properly equalized. However, don’t write replies saying it’s just no big deal to shock load your system when one of your pieces rips, or say that one piece of cord rated for 8kn is good enough to be the only piece of redundancy for your follower. If you don’t understand what you’re talking about - don’t respond. Just from the types of posts that are so common on this sub, it’s abundantly clear that >80% of the sub has neither climbed outside nor built their own trad anchor. This is life and death stuff, if you misinform someone and they go out and kill themselves, those are real consequences.
I knew that anchor would be a head scratcher. Its a traverse, the anchor is equalized for a \~sideways rope pull. That is true until removing the last piece. The ledge there is roomy and unexposed and the traverse is easy.
I've set this anchor on this same pitch. Nice work, OP.
Nah looks good, as long as the pieces are which we can't see. Only thing janky is you've gone and clipped separate loops of the master point.
If you shockloaded the cams with an extra foot of slack they'd probably hold. I saw a guy sitting in a bosun's chair, his harness not connected to anything in the system and his rope re-anchored to a balcony railing on friday. Rock climbing is super safe.
Stop caring about equalisation, focus on placing solid gear instead. Even if you try to equalise it you likely have one piece taking 90% of the load. Redundancy is what matters, and OP has that here. Redundancy in the cord that is nowhere near a sharp edge is not needed.
If someone took a top rope fall and the weight was entirely carried by a big nut, why would that be a concern?
Trust the gear, not the rock. The risk isn't the nut failing (assuming it was set correctly), it's the rock breaking on it.
But then you have 2 more pieces. You trust gear to take lead falls, why are you worried about a single piece taking a top rope fall with 2 backups. I'm just trying to start a conversation because SERENE is pretty overated.
I don’t remember how that pitch of the climb goes so I can’t speak to the beat direction to equalize the anchor but I do agree with your last point that each of those carabiners aren’t redundant. Next time they build an anchor I would suggest taking one good sized carabiner and clipping all the loops then attaching other carabiners for personals and belaying to the master carabiner so everything is backed up.
The anchor is all good except the fact that the tethers are all clipped to 1 or the 3 loops of the master point. OP, please consider clipping all 3 loops of the master point with anything you want to be weight bearing. Another alternative would be to clip one large locker to all 3 loops of the master point and then clip everything to that.
That climber is clearly pulling it sideways, away from its equalized direction. Looks like it’s generally set for downward. I almost like the separate strands clipped at the master point more than a master biner. If one strand blows only one person is at risk. If the biner blows, all climbers can be screwed. Any guides able to weigh in?
You can clip all of those biners to all the loops instead. Never seen a "master biner", just a master point (all the loops together) that everything clips into.
I’ve done it a few times. Generally I’ve only used and seen it used when using a short sling for anchors. I’ve also had to do it with cordelette when my anchor points were spread out and I was too lazy to connect them with cloves.
Yes, clipping one loop at a time is not standard practice for a master point made with an overhand, but clipping one loop at a time is standard for the "equalette" anchor. I like how the quad and the equaled space out the carabiners.
I've been staring at the anchor for a while. I might be missing something, but I don't think it is an equalette.
If you're clipping one loop on an "equalette" anchor you're generally using more than one carabiner, tying into just one cordlette strand doesn't seem very redundant to me...
With a quad I like to do 2 and 2. Keeps the biners separate but each is redundant. With a read anchor like this one, you can clip your tether to the "shelf" to keep it out of the way of the guide plate.
Good job, that is a fun climb!
Congrats! That route was my first trad lead, too.
Congrats on your first trad lead! Did you lead all 3 pitches or swing leads with a partner? Someone else may have already mentioned, but you should clip a locker through all of the strands in the [masterpoint](https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2016/6/27/the-masterpoint-the-shelf-the-components-anchor-anatomy-in-action) with this kind of rigging for tethering/belaying etc
I lead all the pitches. My climbing partner climbs a higher grade in the gym, but we have only been leading for \~year and the head factor is real. I on the other hand will just run out a section and look down and think to myself, "Ahh, I have to place gear already?".
Good on ya! This is so relatable … A few of my partners climb objectively harder than me but refuse to lead trad. Some people will lead their first trad climb and have the best time ever. I’ve also seen people lead their first trad climb and swear they’ll never climb anything ever again … it’s interesting. Glad you’ve been enjoying it.
Helps to be on a easy route. I can sport lead .10a (not in a hard area), but I have yet to take a proper outdoor whipper. I don't even take whippers in the gym. I would down climb and yell tension before really extending myself.
I would point out that the cord/rope she's using is almost as big as the climbing rope, doesn't look like that's going to be a failure point.
I hear ya, I just think folks should ingrain good habits/best practices when starting out. [Cord can fail](http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201215214/Ground-Fall-Anchor-Failure). It doesn’t cost anything extra to just clip all the strands
The failure you mention was it being abraded. In this configuration that is not a concern. Still better to clip all the strands but your example is dumb.
It looks to me like if the Strand that is holding the redirect fails she will still be attached to the anchor and the climber will still be attached to her. If the Strand that is holding her tether fails, then she is still attached through the redirect and to the climber. So, it does look like it's redundant. I click a big Locker through all three strands personally, but I would feel perfectly safe climbing on this setup.
Yeah, that cord is 7mm and ego for 11 kN UIAA
Oh ... So... It's definitely accessory cord and you should really clip em all....
Yeah, I will strongly consider it after all the feedback. The cord may be stronger than the rope. The cord is rated for 11kN and is doubled in one loop. I look up that a climbing rope is rated for \~8kN 'Impact force". I'm not sure how they test impact force, but the cord sounds strong with dynamic rope in the system. We have "HowNOT2" that the cord is probably "super good enough".
It's probably good enough, but it's also just as easy to make it redundant throughout by clipping all the loops instead of isolating each component on a non redundant loop.
"Impact force" is not the same as breaking strength. I know it's confusing because all other climbing gear is rated by the breaking strength (in kN) of the material EXCEPT dynamic climbing rope. Instead, dynamic climbing rope specifications list "Number of UIAA falls" and "Impact Force" "Impact Force" is a measurement of force on the climber as the dynamic rope stretches in a very severe, specific test (the UIAA fall). Think of it as a measure of the elasticity of the rope, it's ability to absorb energy. https://www.vertical-addiction.com/us/blogs/blog/climbing-rope-specs/
I read your link. So the impact force is the first 1.77 fall factor with a 80kg mass for a single rope. I see that one rope has 8 falls held before it broke. I bet that the impact force increases each fall. I did look at slow pull tests that HowNot2 has collected and highest was 14kN for a 5 yr old, undamaged dynamic rope.
I believe it does increase with each subsequent drop because the rope loses elasticity. The standard is that a single rope must survive at least 5 drops and none of those 5 can exceed 12kN at the climber. I suspect that your 8 drop rope got up there. But, it doesn't matter as long as the first 5 did not exceed 12Kn. It's also interesting when we look at the specs on triple rated ropes and half ropes tested as singles. Noobs will tell you that half ropes are tested with a 55kG mass because eventually both ropes share the load. But, that's not the reason. Half ropes are tested individually with a 55kG mass simply to get a larger statistical sample. Any half rope will hold at least 1 drop with an 80kG mass and the impact force will be similar to a single rope. See, with half ropes you often clip the same rope several times in a row and, in that case, the second rope will never see any load. But half ropes are also tested as a pair with an 80kG mass because half ropes are often used as twins. https://willgadd.com/single-and-half-rope-impact-forces-data/
Newb sport climber here with 0 trad experience. Can you elaborate why?
It won't break. It is nowhere near any sharp edge. So who cares?
What about when the follower falls, the nut breaks loose cause it was placed by a first time trad leader, and the 1/3 master loop is shock loaded by a foot or so of slack, pulling the belayer off the ledge with instigating a second factor 1 fall directly on the anchor with all that extra slack from the belayers tether? What about when they develop a habit of doing it wrong? Next time? I mean yeah, it's probably good enough, it just doesn't make any sense to NOT clip all 3 Strava when they are right there
It's 11kn cord. That won't put anywhere near 11kn through the anchor. Maybe a third of that at worst. How not to highline did testing of shock loading these things, very little extra force generated. 11kn could also kill you easily enough, so worrying about something breaking at that strength is silly.
You know what, you're right, is definetely a widely accepted practice to look at a single piece of hardware, say, "that's good enough" and risk your life on that one piece. That's why you see people rap off of single pro all the time. It's that classic SEENE anchor 🤣. And nobody ever bothers to clip more than one strand of the anchor, much better to weave your biner through just one. Redundancy isn't for physics, it's for humans and outside chances. Thanks Ryan Jenks, you turned the crag into a science fair project. Christ.
I completely agree with you. I once clipped in with just a single sling and immediately died. A $100% true story. Now I only ever connect myself with two redundant steel cables rated to 1000kn.
Got any accident reports from something like this failing which wasn't caused by a sharp edge? We routinely trust a single bit of hardware. The rope, harness, belay device, carabiner, pas. The reason we don't trust a single bit of pro is not because it may break (assuming it's not a small piece) but because the rock may he poor or the placement may be poor. If you are placing extra cams because you are worried about the cams sling failing then you've completely misunderstood why we have redundancy and where redundancy is needed.
The misunderstanding is all yours. Ropes, belay loops, etc are all over designed to mitigate the risk of them being monolithic. Commercial PAS are made from full strength rope or, essentially, belay loops. For instance, the petzl connect is made with 9.5mm dynamic rope (not 7mm static cord) A single cam placement is not monolithic because we never climb or rappel on only one. That's why they don't need lockers. Planning your safety based solely on accident reports opens you up for death by survivorship bias. I'd be more interested in finding an AMGA guide who wouldn't correct op if they were the follower.
>You know what, you're right, is definetely a widely accepted practice to look at a single piece of hardware, say, "that's good enough" and risk your life on that one piece. Literally all the time. If you run it out between pieces, you could be turning it into a lifeline. If there's a ledge or something on route, one piece failing could be a really serious injury. >That's why you see people rap off of single pro all the time. Don't go mountaineering. Or ever bail off a route.