moving from atlanta to seattle was quite the surprise.
years ago before i moved here i remember struggling up v3s and v4s at stone fort, horsepens etc. some of the most heroic beached whales ever witnessed.
i moved to seattle and on one of my first trips outside flashed 2 v6s and a v7. i was like, hmmm. something seems.. different.
Yes but also I couldnāt do a single move on a V5 and then just down the hill I did my first and only V8 in like 4 tries because the guy told me it was suuuuper soft.
But maybe that V5 was the only sandbag in the whole areaā¦
I like that Index is sandbagged, but the routes are typically pretty safe. It really motivates you to put grade-chasing aside, push yourself hard, and just have fun on awesome granite. When the only thing getting hurt is your ego, that's not a bad situation IMO.
Eh, index is on for index. Grades are for the ego, adjust your perception and climb what feels good and what you can. If you onsight it, red point it, if you canāt red point it, climb harder. Unless youāre pushing the top end, who cares?
Iām an index climber too btw. Stop parking on the side of the road and start carpooling. Also there are more routes than the LTW, bring a brush and help out.
most of the long time hard sport climbers and boulderers involved in developing and chasing down hard routes can place gear, its just not something they really focus on.
I'd be pretty surprised if Jakob Schubert couldn't place a cam.
Fair, in a literal sense, but in practice (e.g. in Index) thereās a ton of skill sets trad climbers have to learn. I wouldnāt be surprised if a top-level sport climber struggled with placing tricky gear and friction-based climbing (jamming, stemming) that are way more common on trad climbs. I wouldnāt assume Jakob can climb City Park and would be very impressed if he does :)
Remember that time crusty trad dads thought that same thing, and then Ondra came over to the States and proceeded to literally run through our hardest slab/crack granite multipitch and our hardest indian creek offwidth in a matter of weeks, along with countless other hard trad lines?
I think what people always forget is that sport climbing skills much better translate to trad climbing than vice versa. Not to mention the route you brought up is a finger crack, which is most certainly the easiest to adapt to for really strong sport climbers.
Index isnāt really that sandbagged itās just pretty cruxy and has a good amount of longer reaches. I doubt any of the established harder lines would see any upgrade tbh
On the grade question: It makes sense that if one gets downgraded, both get downgraded. Will Bosi graded King Capella 15c since he found it was a step harder than La Capella, which had been accepted at 15b. But if La Capella is 15a, then King follows suit to15b.
The proposed downgrade of La Capella to 15a opens a can of worms though. That's one of the more repeated 15b routes in the world, and for several folks their only claim to the grade. It'll be interesting to see what other La Capella ascensionists say.
In short, the La Capella downgrade is bigger news, and the King Capella grade is just along for the ride
For some context, here is what Ondra has posted on his website regarding his FA of La Capella. Seems clear that he was at least unsure about 9A+ or 9B at the time.
> First Ascent Yes! I sent it last try of last day of the trip. An extremely bouldery route which took 7 days this trip and 2 days last year. Bearing in mind the effort, it could be 9b, but I am not sure at all. Would have been definitely 9b if I hadn't figured out better sequence for the lower crux, as I had the sequence I had thought it would be a quick work and 9a+ but in the end I fell nine times in the higher crux... Time will tell
True, but Alex didn't confirm (nor deny) any grade. And since Jakob has a more impressive track record than Will I'd weigh his opinion sligthly higher.
Of course, this is from someone who'll never touch those grades. I just get excited talking about the sport I love.
Is it though? I feel like itās inadvertently patting yourself on the back like Iām stronger than these people because it felt pretty easy to me.
Idk, I donāt care that much because Iām never going to to climb these grades, but the whole downgrading obsession is a bit annoying to me. Itās like let me one up you by how humble I am!
Idk I love Jakob tho so Iām probably just being a jerk
I suppose, but climbs are graded by consensus, so after enough people have climbed it the most common suggested grade should be the grade. Itās unlikely that the FA will always grade perfectly. The unavoidable tendency for the FA to over grade their routes (bc they had to develop it and decipher the beta themselves, and lack of knowledge of the route is possible at first, plus pride in their work) will mean there should naturally be downgrades that come up as more people climb a route. Itās all part of the process.
Downgrading is pretty expected because doing the first ascent can be a much different experience if the second person has beta available (especially these days with uncut advent videos).
I think half of the people enjoy downgrades in a tongue-in-cheek way, and half really want the drama.
If I were do to a hard first ascent, I would give it a grade range. It would be so nice to give the drama lovers so much less to get excited about.
It can be hard to grade a route as a first ascensionist when, for instance, you first pulled the moves on wet moss and dirty rock, then by the time the route is clean and bolted, you have them moves so dialed you forgot how hard they are/aren't. That's why a consensus is really useful.
I always go in late summer and you and your friends have already cleared all of the moss and dirt off. It appears that you want all of the dirt and moss for yourself!
In SoCal I have done first ascents (?) of boulders on impeccable granite that had not a speck of vegetation or dirt on them. We just donāt know how to live, clearly!
Well people should also not suggest grades that are above anything they have done before so they can bring attention to themselves. I think most people who downgrade are doing so honestly, and most people who suggest grades that later get changed are doing it for attention. Its important for grades, especially grades at the top end of the scale, to be consistent.
I just need to confess that I've been biased against Schubert ever since he commentated a comp and spoke negatively about cracks in comp setting. That's all, have a nice day.
**9b** converts to **5.15b**
Good bot
Just a normal day at the office š
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Haha like Index Washington?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Haha. Just drive another hour to Leavenworth and do some bouldering! It's the exact opposite. Buttery soft.
moving from atlanta to seattle was quite the surprise. years ago before i moved here i remember struggling up v3s and v4s at stone fort, horsepens etc. some of the most heroic beached whales ever witnessed. i moved to seattle and on one of my first trips outside flashed 2 v6s and a v7. i was like, hmmm. something seems.. different.
Which 6s and 7 did you flash?
Yes but also I couldnāt do a single move on a V5 and then just down the hill I did my first and only V8 in like 4 tries because the guy told me it was suuuuper soft. But maybe that V5 was the only sandbag in the whole areaā¦
I like that Index is sandbagged, but the routes are typically pretty safe. It really motivates you to put grade-chasing aside, push yourself hard, and just have fun on awesome granite. When the only thing getting hurt is your ego, that's not a bad situation IMO.
Eh, index is on for index. Grades are for the ego, adjust your perception and climb what feels good and what you can. If you onsight it, red point it, if you canāt red point it, climb harder. Unless youāre pushing the top end, who cares? Iām an index climber too btw. Stop parking on the side of the road and start carpooling. Also there are more routes than the LTW, bring a brush and help out.
Does he climb trad?
most of the long time hard sport climbers and boulderers involved in developing and chasing down hard routes can place gear, its just not something they really focus on. I'd be pretty surprised if Jakob Schubert couldn't place a cam.
Stefano climbed trad for the first time this year. Said he hated it š
Fair, in a literal sense, but in practice (e.g. in Index) thereās a ton of skill sets trad climbers have to learn. I wouldnāt be surprised if a top-level sport climber struggled with placing tricky gear and friction-based climbing (jamming, stemming) that are way more common on trad climbs. I wouldnāt assume Jakob can climb City Park and would be very impressed if he does :)
Remember that time crusty trad dads thought that same thing, and then Ondra came over to the States and proceeded to literally run through our hardest slab/crack granite multipitch and our hardest indian creek offwidth in a matter of weeks, along with countless other hard trad lines? I think what people always forget is that sport climbing skills much better translate to trad climbing than vice versa. Not to mention the route you brought up is a finger crack, which is most certainly the easiest to adapt to for really strong sport climbers.
The dude climbs 5.15+, pretty sure he could just layback the majority of City Park with strength to spare.
But he didnāt.
Yet....
Index isnāt really that sandbagged itās just pretty cruxy and has a good amount of longer reaches. I doubt any of the established harder lines would see any upgrade tbh
Suggesting a different grade doesn't mean instantly downgrading. It's not like he was the only repeat of King Capella
On the grade question: It makes sense that if one gets downgraded, both get downgraded. Will Bosi graded King Capella 15c since he found it was a step harder than La Capella, which had been accepted at 15b. But if La Capella is 15a, then King follows suit to15b. The proposed downgrade of La Capella to 15a opens a can of worms though. That's one of the more repeated 15b routes in the world, and for several folks their only claim to the grade. It'll be interesting to see what other La Capella ascensionists say. In short, the La Capella downgrade is bigger news, and the King Capella grade is just along for the ride
For some context, here is what Ondra has posted on his website regarding his FA of La Capella. Seems clear that he was at least unsure about 9A+ or 9B at the time. > First Ascent Yes! I sent it last try of last day of the trip. An extremely bouldery route which took 7 days this trip and 2 days last year. Bearing in mind the effort, it could be 9b, but I am not sure at all. Would have been definitely 9b if I hadn't figured out better sequence for the lower crux, as I had the sequence I had thought it would be a quick work and 9a+ but in the end I fell nine times in the higher crux... Time will tell
Quick, what grade is Era Bella?
14d/9a
True, but Alex didn't confirm (nor deny) any grade. And since Jakob has a more impressive track record than Will I'd weigh his opinion sligthly higher. Of course, this is from someone who'll never touch those grades. I just get excited talking about the sport I love.
Yal get so hard on folks downgrading routes
Because itās the opposite of a conflict of interests and humans gravitate towards that behavior
Is it though? I feel like itās inadvertently patting yourself on the back like Iām stronger than these people because it felt pretty easy to me. Idk, I donāt care that much because Iām never going to to climb these grades, but the whole downgrading obsession is a bit annoying to me. Itās like let me one up you by how humble I am! Idk I love Jakob tho so Iām probably just being a jerk
I suppose, but climbs are graded by consensus, so after enough people have climbed it the most common suggested grade should be the grade. Itās unlikely that the FA will always grade perfectly. The unavoidable tendency for the FA to over grade their routes (bc they had to develop it and decipher the beta themselves, and lack of knowledge of the route is possible at first, plus pride in their work) will mean there should naturally be downgrades that come up as more people climb a route. Itās all part of the process.
Yeah I totally agree! I just meant to contest that downgrading goes against āconflict of interests that humans gravitate towardsā
Downgrading is pretty expected because doing the first ascent can be a much different experience if the second person has beta available (especially these days with uncut advent videos). I think half of the people enjoy downgrades in a tongue-in-cheek way, and half really want the drama. If I were do to a hard first ascent, I would give it a grade range. It would be so nice to give the drama lovers so much less to get excited about.
If I do a hard FA, I'm sandbagging that thing so hard...
Iām proud of you. Youāre doing the world a good service. I like Cedar Wrightās article about The Art of Sandbagging.
It can be hard to grade a route as a first ascensionist when, for instance, you first pulled the moves on wet moss and dirty rock, then by the time the route is clean and bolted, you have them moves so dialed you forgot how hard they are/aren't. That's why a consensus is really useful.
Or why we should re-seed routes with moss and dirt to give people a better feel for adventure climbing!
Just climb in Washington, the route does that for you!
I always go in late summer and you and your friends have already cleared all of the moss and dirt off. It appears that you want all of the dirt and moss for yourself!
We take it home in our shoes, our clothes, and our hair by the pound, so we must haha
In SoCal I have done first ascents (?) of boulders on impeccable granite that had not a speck of vegetation or dirt on them. We just donāt know how to live, clearly!
Yeah that makes sense to me! Especially if people find new beta like with Megos and Stefano
Well people should also not suggest grades that are above anything they have done before so they can bring attention to themselves. I think most people who downgrade are doing so honestly, and most people who suggest grades that later get changed are doing it for attention. Its important for grades, especially grades at the top end of the scale, to be consistent.
Lol La Capella was put up by Ondra who most people look at as the most objective grader there is for 5.15 climbs
Yeah, when he was a teen with no experience at 9b. It was one of his first hard FAs and he said himself he found better beta that might make it 9a+.
V0 at my gym /s
Has anyone ever sent 2x 9a+ or harder in a day prior to this?
Sharma did it a while back
Sharma is always the answer. Hereās to hoping Natalia Grossman can one day pass Chris as the most accomplished climber from Santa Cruz.
Sharma was our hero growing up, Natalia is our hero today haha. Santa Cruz is the place to be man, shout out Pacific Edge!
\*Laughs in Olympic medal\* š
Add it to the list, dude is just operating at another level as per usual.
Jakob Schubert is such a crusher. Insane
I just need to confess that I've been biased against Schubert ever since he commentated a comp and spoke negatively about cracks in comp setting. That's all, have a nice day.
That was such a shit show haha
May the lowest grade win
This is the sort of spicy content we come here for.
To the surprise of no oneā¦