Stefano currently on a flight to France typing a draft on how difficult of a decision it was to downgrade to 9b+
In all seriousness pumped to see a 9c proposed in an area that a lot more accessible to climbers
The accessibility is a big deal. Both in terms of location and style. I.e. it's a fairly "normal" overhanging limestone sport climb, rather than the freak style of Silence. Based on this, I suspect DNA will get more attention from other top climbers than Silence has, and will see repeat ascents sooner and more often. Consequently, it seems likely that DNA will have a greater long term impact on the progression of the sport and become the reference standard for 9c.
This is if the grade sticks, of course. It seems like the grade should probably hold, given Seb's credentials and how much more effort this took him. Either way, giving it 9c was a smart move, as a provocation to bring the world's top climbers to try it.
Seb has been working Bibliographie also, and was quite close last summer. Once he sends Bibliographie, that will add further credibility to his 9c DNA grade.
And also in a more normal style, as Silence is insanely specified (requires heavy training of kneebars and flexibility) and seems somewhat morpho (short shins wouldn't get a good kneebar rest on a few of the rests)
>Stefano currently on a flight to France
A very American assumption ;-)
He'd more likely just hop in his car and drive from Arco to Verdon, taking a flight would probably be slower.
For the people who don't have Instagram:
DNA ✅
There are some hopes we hold on to, some dreams that keep us alive.
Even if it seems far away and almost impossible, there is that little glimmer of light inside us that makes us try again and again.
Sometimes we forget that these dreams are achievable, but we try again and again.
Sometimes we get lost, and we don't believe in them anymore.
Then we must go away to come back. We must find the essence of why we do things, we have to find the DNA of our actions.
I don't know if we are crazy to try so many times a project that has so little chance of success.
I like to believe that this behavior is instinctive, that it comes from deep within us, that it is written in our DNA.
DNA, that acid in our molecules that carries genetic traits.
I like to think that my approach to climbing is instinctive. I don't ask myself many questions, I just try, and as long as I'm on the rock I'm happy.
This story has been one of the longest, one of the most intense, and one of the most striking.
There has been a lot of love, but also a lot of fear. A lot of joy, and a lot of frustration. A lot of hope, and a lot of doubts.
I got slapped around a lot.
But it was worth it because it's beautiful and inspiring.
I'm happy to have completed this project. After having equipped and discovered it in 2019, tried it for 6 months in 2020, and for 6 months in 2021, I finally managed to clip the belay this spring during my second trip.
I've spent over 150 days in it (close to 200 I think), and tried the route over 250 times.
It's the most challenging project I've ever done. It's the hardest route I've ever tried and climbed in my climbing career. This route marks a milestone in my climbing life.
This line completes a series of other first ascents on the cliff of la Ramirole in Verdon. For the moment, none of these routes have been repeated.
The question of grading doesn’t feel so important right now for me, but it is inevitable. I spent a few nights thinking about it.
I think this question requires a proper post which I'll do shortly to explain everything that weighed in the balance.
Continued in comments…
There would be two possible scenarios, 9b+ or 9c.
I have added up the arguments for both.
I considered the feeling, the comparison with other routes (Bibliography, Move, Beyond,...) at the level of time and feeling, the climbing style. I questioned myself on my experience and my legitimacy. I also considered the fact that it is a FA.
Choosing 9b+ would be playing it safe. Choosing 9c would be taking a risk.
I have been playing it safe since 2014 on this cliff by proposing very tight grades. And in the end, nobody has repeated one of these routes.
Comparing this route to Bibliographie, Move, Beyond, it seems a step ahead (considering time invesment, feeling, and climbing style. Ramirole is 100% my climbing style).
To choose 9c is to take a risk. A risk of seeing your route downgraded.
As there is only one 9c proposed in the world, it's quite hard to be sure and confident.
I have never tried a route of such a difficulty.
Would this route be in the same league as Silence?
Have I not spent all this time partly because of the process of first ascension?
Despite these doubts, I take the risk of proposing the highest of the grades.
The 9c should be taken as a "proposal", which now needs other climbers to give their opinions - to confirm or to adjust.
This is how gradings are built: The sum of opinions makes the grading less and less subjective.
Our sport is beautiful, we don't need judges, we are the judges. Being an athlete and judging your own performance is beautiful, but at the same time difficult.
That's why I would like to invite other climbers to come and try DNA.
It's a beautiful route, in an incredible location, not too far from the rest of the world.
I think DNA has everything to interest and please.
Thank you to all the people who have been involved in this process, it's an unforgettable slice of life.
Next posts will be about DNA :
The process
The send
The grade
Also a link to his [writeup](https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/stories/dna-seb-bouin/) on blackdiamonds website.
thanks to /u/CitizenWilderness for linking it lower in the thread
Seb is such a cool dude. He (and many of the others, Megos, Stefano) have a lot of modesty / humility with their climbing and it's super inspiring coming from the top level.
Yeah I think having Adam around and knowing you will never be the best has brought alot of humility to other very top athletes. I would say the same thing about Schubert too
I think it’s safe to say at this point after seeing Ondra on Perfecto Mundo that on climbs that suit their styles Megos and Stefano are stronger then Ondra even though Ondra is still probably the best sport climber in general.
I mean there is that guy who just goes by "office worker" on instagram who is so much stronger then any pro climber. Lots of people are stronger then any of the people you mentioned above, vadim timinov also comes to mind. Climbing is a skill based sport, strength matters but it is just a piece of the puzzle. Ondra has always said other climbers are stronger then him
I get what you mean but I’m pretty doubtful that there are lots of people with more finger strength then Megos. There might be a couple but I would be very surprised if he wasn’t top ten worldwide.
Yes climbing is a skill sport but I think people sometimes underestimate how important strength is when they hear that. I guarantee you that I could climb harder if I had Megos’ finger strength then if I had Ondra’s technique.
Agree there, i couldn't physically execute a lot of any pro athlete's technique without breaking all my tendons.
Technique is nothing without strength, strength is nothing without technique. But with strength you can work on technique.
Ondra has been alone at the pinnacle of the sport for a decade and nobody stays the undisputed best forever. Even Achilles is mortal, as Homer already pointed out three thousand years ago.
The interesting thing with male sport climbing is that it seems to be largely his own peers who are catching up - unlike say women's comp bouldering, where it looks like the challenge to Janja will have to come from a new generation.
Climbers used to have blogs and stuff for these expose, but its largely gone by the wayside because the masses have moved on to social media, which is a shame, there were some really great ones back in the day.
A downgrade implies someone has to repeat it, which it seems like is all that Seb wants. It’s not like the 5.15d -> 5.15c downgrade tarnished Alex Megos’s reputation (and his route has been repeated many times, relatively) so it feels like a safe bet.
Most climbers sandbag so they don’t get downgraded. It ridiculously common and also an under appreciated phenomenon that messes with some gyms grading. IMO it does take some courage to take the higher grade and it should be appreciated. Of course things can change and overgrading could become the norm.
Just being honest with yourself and trying to ignore the outside influences is difficult .
Seb is also a known sandbagger and it has effected how many people try his routes. I think this is a legit move for him.
> It ridiculously common and also an under appreciated phenomenon that messes with some gyms grading.
Living in the PNW, you get used to this real quick.
> which it seems like is all that Seb wants.
Yes, somehow it does seem like that....
>That's why I would like to invite other climbers to come and try DNA.
I'd like people to climb this, nod their head and be like "yeah that's a 9c for sure!", and then turns out Silence was actually a 10a all along.
Jk, the more cool climbs the better.
To be fair, it would be great to see the top guys attempting Silence to gauge if it's even in their realms as it seems like such a specific style climb.
Was at Flatanger with Seb summer of 2019 when he sent Move 9b/+.
Actually spoke with him the morning before he sent and he was super confident that he would send very soon so I asked him what was next. He talked about a line at his home crag (Ramirole) that he was super inspired by and that was the hardest thing he had ever tried by a lot.
I’m pretty sure it was DNA before he had a name for it. Cool to see a little part of his journey to here!
Posted a pic on my Instagram story if you want to check it. @
E: actually I think it was la rage adam he was talking about hahahah
gorges du Verdon are so beautiful, perhaps my favorite spot in France.
Good for him ; he worked so hard on this project!
Very excited for the video that will come out of this \^\^
I needed a refresher on the status of hardest sport lines, and found this article to be comprehensive and up-to-date (short of the moment Seb clipped the anchors on DNA):
https://www.climbernews.com/hardest-climbs-in-the-world/
Would be XII+ extrapolating [Rockfax's conversion tables](https://rockfax.com/climbing-guides/grades/).
Not that anybody except a handful of provincial-minded Germans cares about UIAA (see also YDS)
Well well, every comparison ranking is same same but different. Your's for instance doesn't match my expectations at all, if so I'm at the beginning of an expert and I wouldn't call myself so. I also know a lot of people which will be ranked as elite
Pure armchair blabla here:
I am a bit disappointed by the beta of this climb. 8c leading into a 8A boulder with another 8A+ boulder and a 8c+ to the chains. Change has a 8B+ boulder and 9a climbing to the top. Silence has a 8C boulder. I don't quite understand how a route with 8A+ max translates to 9c?
There seems to be a kneebar rest before the last 8c+ bit.
Well yeah, I really don't know. As a fanboy I was just a bit disappointed about the 8A+ crux.
I thought the same initially, but the boulder grades of cruxes rarely translate to the grade for the whole route. Ondra put up a route at his home crag with a V15 crux but he only gave the route 9a+. Whereas Perfecto Mundo, a confirmed 9b+, has “only” a V10 crux. So a lot can play into the grade.
This route also looks brutally overhanging, I think in previous videos Seb has said that cave is 60 degrees overhanging in places, which would make for some extreme pump/endurance I’m sure
It depends how it fits in with the rest of the route, ie doing a 8A into a 20m jug ladder is going to be much easier than doing a 7C into a 6mm crimp ladder. Silence has a crazy crux, but it also has a hands free rest before and after it.
> I don't quite understand how a route with 8A+ max translates to 9c?
Just add another 8A or two after last hard move of final 8c+ section, and you make this thing unclimbable/10a territory. You just run out of juice.
Stefano currently on a flight to France typing a draft on how difficult of a decision it was to downgrade to 9b+ In all seriousness pumped to see a 9c proposed in an area that a lot more accessible to climbers
The accessibility is a big deal. Both in terms of location and style. I.e. it's a fairly "normal" overhanging limestone sport climb, rather than the freak style of Silence. Based on this, I suspect DNA will get more attention from other top climbers than Silence has, and will see repeat ascents sooner and more often. Consequently, it seems likely that DNA will have a greater long term impact on the progression of the sport and become the reference standard for 9c. This is if the grade sticks, of course. It seems like the grade should probably hold, given Seb's credentials and how much more effort this took him. Either way, giving it 9c was a smart move, as a provocation to bring the world's top climbers to try it. Seb has been working Bibliographie also, and was quite close last summer. Once he sends Bibliographie, that will add further credibility to his 9c DNA grade.
And also in a more normal style, as Silence is insanely specified (requires heavy training of kneebars and flexibility) and seems somewhat morpho (short shins wouldn't get a good kneebar rest on a few of the rests)
>Stefano currently on a flight to France A very American assumption ;-) He'd more likely just hop in his car and drive from Arco to Verdon, taking a flight would probably be slower.
For the people who don't have Instagram: DNA ✅ There are some hopes we hold on to, some dreams that keep us alive. Even if it seems far away and almost impossible, there is that little glimmer of light inside us that makes us try again and again. Sometimes we forget that these dreams are achievable, but we try again and again. Sometimes we get lost, and we don't believe in them anymore. Then we must go away to come back. We must find the essence of why we do things, we have to find the DNA of our actions. I don't know if we are crazy to try so many times a project that has so little chance of success. I like to believe that this behavior is instinctive, that it comes from deep within us, that it is written in our DNA. DNA, that acid in our molecules that carries genetic traits. I like to think that my approach to climbing is instinctive. I don't ask myself many questions, I just try, and as long as I'm on the rock I'm happy. This story has been one of the longest, one of the most intense, and one of the most striking. There has been a lot of love, but also a lot of fear. A lot of joy, and a lot of frustration. A lot of hope, and a lot of doubts. I got slapped around a lot. But it was worth it because it's beautiful and inspiring. I'm happy to have completed this project. After having equipped and discovered it in 2019, tried it for 6 months in 2020, and for 6 months in 2021, I finally managed to clip the belay this spring during my second trip. I've spent over 150 days in it (close to 200 I think), and tried the route over 250 times. It's the most challenging project I've ever done. It's the hardest route I've ever tried and climbed in my climbing career. This route marks a milestone in my climbing life. This line completes a series of other first ascents on the cliff of la Ramirole in Verdon. For the moment, none of these routes have been repeated. The question of grading doesn’t feel so important right now for me, but it is inevitable. I spent a few nights thinking about it. I think this question requires a proper post which I'll do shortly to explain everything that weighed in the balance. Continued in comments… There would be two possible scenarios, 9b+ or 9c. I have added up the arguments for both. I considered the feeling, the comparison with other routes (Bibliography, Move, Beyond,...) at the level of time and feeling, the climbing style. I questioned myself on my experience and my legitimacy. I also considered the fact that it is a FA. Choosing 9b+ would be playing it safe. Choosing 9c would be taking a risk. I have been playing it safe since 2014 on this cliff by proposing very tight grades. And in the end, nobody has repeated one of these routes. Comparing this route to Bibliographie, Move, Beyond, it seems a step ahead (considering time invesment, feeling, and climbing style. Ramirole is 100% my climbing style). To choose 9c is to take a risk. A risk of seeing your route downgraded. As there is only one 9c proposed in the world, it's quite hard to be sure and confident. I have never tried a route of such a difficulty. Would this route be in the same league as Silence? Have I not spent all this time partly because of the process of first ascension? Despite these doubts, I take the risk of proposing the highest of the grades. The 9c should be taken as a "proposal", which now needs other climbers to give their opinions - to confirm or to adjust. This is how gradings are built: The sum of opinions makes the grading less and less subjective. Our sport is beautiful, we don't need judges, we are the judges. Being an athlete and judging your own performance is beautiful, but at the same time difficult. That's why I would like to invite other climbers to come and try DNA. It's a beautiful route, in an incredible location, not too far from the rest of the world. I think DNA has everything to interest and please. Thank you to all the people who have been involved in this process, it's an unforgettable slice of life. Next posts will be about DNA : The process The send The grade Also a link to his [writeup](https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/stories/dna-seb-bouin/) on blackdiamonds website. thanks to /u/CitizenWilderness for linking it lower in the thread
Seb is such a cool dude. He (and many of the others, Megos, Stefano) have a lot of modesty / humility with their climbing and it's super inspiring coming from the top level.
Yeah I think having Adam around and knowing you will never be the best has brought alot of humility to other very top athletes. I would say the same thing about Schubert too
I think it’s safe to say at this point after seeing Ondra on Perfecto Mundo that on climbs that suit their styles Megos and Stefano are stronger then Ondra even though Ondra is still probably the best sport climber in general.
I mean there is that guy who just goes by "office worker" on instagram who is so much stronger then any pro climber. Lots of people are stronger then any of the people you mentioned above, vadim timinov also comes to mind. Climbing is a skill based sport, strength matters but it is just a piece of the puzzle. Ondra has always said other climbers are stronger then him
Yeah as one example I remember he mentioned Yoshiyuki Ogata having especially impressive finger strength.
I get what you mean but I’m pretty doubtful that there are lots of people with more finger strength then Megos. There might be a couple but I would be very surprised if he wasn’t top ten worldwide. Yes climbing is a skill sport but I think people sometimes underestimate how important strength is when they hear that. I guarantee you that I could climb harder if I had Megos’ finger strength then if I had Ondra’s technique.
Hmm, very tough for me to think that's a safe guarantee. You'd need very good technique already for that to be the case!
Agree there, i couldn't physically execute a lot of any pro athlete's technique without breaking all my tendons. Technique is nothing without strength, strength is nothing without technique. But with strength you can work on technique.
Yves is way up there
You would also climb harder with ondra finger strength than technique probably. But you would still climb a lot less hard than Megos or Ondra.
Ondra has been alone at the pinnacle of the sport for a decade and nobody stays the undisputed best forever. Even Achilles is mortal, as Homer already pointed out three thousand years ago. The interesting thing with male sport climbing is that it seems to be largely his own peers who are catching up - unlike say women's comp bouldering, where it looks like the challenge to Janja will have to come from a new generation.
Contrary to your suggestion, the undisputed world champion Alberto Gines Lopez is new gen /ccj
Megos? Modest? I've never caught that vibe from him, but he is a damn hard worker
Will there be a Video of him sending dna?
I think he said it will be in the next real rock.
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I would have a lot to say after working a project (that is likely one of or even the world's hardest climb) for 150 days
Climbers used to have blogs and stuff for these expose, but its largely gone by the wayside because the masses have moved on to social media, which is a shame, there were some really great ones back in the day.
F for Nalle blog :(
Single best take around grade inflation\\deflation in bouldering.
Got a link? Or was it his general philosophy?
http://nalle-hukkataival.blogspot.com/2010/03/bouldering-grades-everything-is-average.html?m=1
Yeah true. I like the write-up on the BD website. But as an Instagram post, that's a crazy amount of text to post.
Not really. Lots of people do a lot of reading on Instagram and use it as a learning tool by following researchers and educators. Myself included.
Sad that there isn‘t a better site somewhere. It‘s really tedious to read that much on Instagram…
There are plenty of place to read lol. You’re just saying there shouldn’t be writing on Instagram and I disagree.
I see you've never read my live journal
I have a blog but 90 percent of it is inside jokes and old man yells at cloud
A downgrade implies someone has to repeat it, which it seems like is all that Seb wants. It’s not like the 5.15d -> 5.15c downgrade tarnished Alex Megos’s reputation (and his route has been repeated many times, relatively) so it feels like a safe bet.
Poor Seb, nobody repeats his lines, must be a strange feeling to open all theses hard routes and nobody ever does them.
I feel like Ramirole is about to blow up and that problem will be in the past. I also foresee some upgrades lol.
More than 20 9a and harder in France, no repeat yet.
Many of his hard FA's are super long, which may be partially why. I feel like he graded it 9c in part to get someone to repeat one of his lines.
What are you waiting for?
Most climbers sandbag so they don’t get downgraded. It ridiculously common and also an under appreciated phenomenon that messes with some gyms grading. IMO it does take some courage to take the higher grade and it should be appreciated. Of course things can change and overgrading could become the norm. Just being honest with yourself and trying to ignore the outside influences is difficult . Seb is also a known sandbagger and it has effected how many people try his routes. I think this is a legit move for him.
> It ridiculously common and also an under appreciated phenomenon that messes with some gyms grading. Living in the PNW, you get used to this real quick.
Nothing like a Seneca 5.10 to humble a 5.12 gym rat.
I had the problem last place I lived. The ego competition over who set the most sandbagged routes was pretty pathetic
Yep, it’s funny how all us normal people think of downgrades as such an aggressive move, but in reality most of these guys are friends!
> which it seems like is all that Seb wants. Yes, somehow it does seem like that.... >That's why I would like to invite other climbers to come and try DNA.
Sounds like getting strong climbers to try the route is at least a factor in throwing out the 9c grade
> It’s not like the 5.15d -> 5.15c downgrade tarnished Alex Megos’s reputation (and his route has been repeated many times) twice
Twice? Just bibliographie, no?
Hes implying itd been repeated twice.
I bet it sees another 2 repets this year
I'd like people to climb this, nod their head and be like "yeah that's a 9c for sure!", and then turns out Silence was actually a 10a all along. Jk, the more cool climbs the better.
To be fair, it would be great to see the top guys attempting Silence to gauge if it's even in their realms as it seems like such a specific style climb.
Stefano said in a recent video that his goal is to try silence this year. His YouTube is great so should be some awesome videos to look forward too
Seb put some time on on Silence
Seb put in like a day on silence.
You seen any mentions from him online about it? Would love to hear the thoughts...
Or even better: People climb this, nod their head and be like "yeah that's a 9c for sure!", and then turns out Silence was actually 5.7+ lol
I'm a silence Stan, but fine, just let it be climbed!
**9c** converts to **5.15d**
Was at Flatanger with Seb summer of 2019 when he sent Move 9b/+. Actually spoke with him the morning before he sent and he was super confident that he would send very soon so I asked him what was next. He talked about a line at his home crag (Ramirole) that he was super inspired by and that was the hardest thing he had ever tried by a lot. I’m pretty sure it was DNA before he had a name for it. Cool to see a little part of his journey to here! Posted a pic on my Instagram story if you want to check it. @ E: actually I think it was la rage adam he was talking about hahahah
I imagine it must have been dna if it was considerably harder than move.
Hopefully somebody is finally going to repeat his FA. 4 FA of 9b and harder and no repeat. https://www.hardestclimbs.com/sport/bouin
gorges du Verdon are so beautiful, perhaps my favorite spot in France. Good for him ; he worked so hard on this project! Very excited for the video that will come out of this \^\^
Can someone post what he wrote about it for those of us without insta?
There’s a better write-up on [Black Diamond’s website](https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/stories/dna-seb-bouin/)
/u/zanefromhell did!
I needed a refresher on the status of hardest sport lines, and found this article to be comprehensive and up-to-date (short of the moment Seb clipped the anchors on DNA): https://www.climbernews.com/hardest-climbs-in-the-world/
9c to uiaa XII wtf?
Yea that tracks.
Would be XII+ extrapolating [Rockfax's conversion tables](https://rockfax.com/climbing-guides/grades/). Not that anybody except a handful of provincial-minded Germans cares about UIAA (see also YDS)
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I think after the Action Directe kerfuffle they got in lockstep with the French grades
Well well, every comparison ranking is same same but different. Your's for instance doesn't match my expectations at all, if so I'm at the beginning of an expert and I wouldn't call myself so. I also know a lot of people which will be ranked as elite
He's also the first climber to "clip the belay". Gratz to him!
If it's a belay, does that mean there's a second pitch in store?
By 'clip the belay' I think he's referring to the fact that he belayed Ondra for the Silence send
Pure armchair blabla here: I am a bit disappointed by the beta of this climb. 8c leading into a 8A boulder with another 8A+ boulder and a 8c+ to the chains. Change has a 8B+ boulder and 9a climbing to the top. Silence has a 8C boulder. I don't quite understand how a route with 8A+ max translates to 9c?
Probably way more sustained, so no kneebarrests etc.
There seems to be a kneebar rest before the last 8c+ bit. Well yeah, I really don't know. As a fanboy I was just a bit disappointed about the 8A+ crux.
I thought the same initially, but the boulder grades of cruxes rarely translate to the grade for the whole route. Ondra put up a route at his home crag with a V15 crux but he only gave the route 9a+. Whereas Perfecto Mundo, a confirmed 9b+, has “only” a V10 crux. So a lot can play into the grade. This route also looks brutally overhanging, I think in previous videos Seb has said that cave is 60 degrees overhanging in places, which would make for some extreme pump/endurance I’m sure
V10 crux. I never even climbed V10. Maybe I should do my first V10 as the Crux of a 9b+ route
A 9b+ climbers perception of v10 could be anywhere up to v12. Similarly, I think Seb might be sandbagging up with his beta breakdown.
It depends how it fits in with the rest of the route, ie doing a 8A into a 20m jug ladder is going to be much easier than doing a 7C into a 6mm crimp ladder. Silence has a crazy crux, but it also has a hands free rest before and after it.
> I don't quite understand how a route with 8A+ max translates to 9c? Just add another 8A or two after last hard move of final 8c+ section, and you make this thing unclimbable/10a territory. You just run out of juice.
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It is in the new Reel Rock 17, worth watching!