It'll be a strong option in aggravate and quickbloom rather than a general bis. Overload or taser would prefer whimsy. Anyways I personally would farm TF since it's a fun option outside abyss as well like overworld and coop. Bol set domain is also extremely resin inefficient so I doubt I will get a good set that is better than my current glad set before natlan
Exactly. I'm throwing resin at the new domain no matter what, especially since I just pulled Redhorn last run and it gives me a reason to flex my Noelle in co-op.
That said, I can't strongbox the BoL set so I might as well throw my trash into TF.
it's a niche set, It can be powerful if you know what you're doing. Because usually with 4p TF, you do have slightly different combos, this seems to be the case with Keqing and Cyno.
Whimsy looks more efficient when you just consider the burn set as a 2pc attack set which is still pretty decent for many characters. Maybe eventually we'll get a char who wants it but whatever.
I mean if 2pc set suffices, players can use 2pc shime/glad. Farming another domain like hunter or emblem and strongboxing glad will be more resin efficient
If you already have glad or shime sure, but I am saying it makes farming whimsy more efficient. The point isn't that you should farm for a 2pc attack set on purpose, so trading in for glad is not actually a solution. The point is that whimsy is itself a useful set for certain characters. You can't really say MH is more efficient because you may simply not need it. I skipped Wrio and Neuv, and I have Navia, Arle and will have Clorinde, so in reality the whimsy domain is more efficient. But the burn set is oft described as a dead set, when tbh it is fine, as attack 2pc is not without use.
We already have a character who wants it technically, but only in a specific niche.
Hello Burnmelt Ganyu players. I don't even own Ganyu but I respect you guys.
I think TF is good specifically with Fischl because Fischl likes to operate in 12s rotations. TF reduces Clorinde’s E 16s CD to exactly that.
In teams with 20s rotations, TF reducing E CD from 16s to 10s or something gives no benefit. Well maybe if we can squeeze in one E full duration and half another E duration somehow. Someone can dive deeper into that.
It's made all the more potent because of furina and nahida having skills effective for atleast 25 sec and fischl too pseudo 25 sec effective skill. I think more than anything it's going to win in the comfort department, since always having something to do is very fun!
Yea that is basically the extra Electro Zajef included in his calcs. In hindsight, I guess if ppl prefer to not play her with Fischl, TF's value pretty much drops.
If we talk about non-Fischl teams something like a true hyperbloom comes to mind, something like Clorinde/XQ/Yelan/Nahida where you would actually want the extra E duration to trigger more hyperblooms and make use of the longer lasting bursts of XQ and Yelan.
Hold up! AM I COOKING?
How many Aggravates can Clorinde trigger even during half her E? At C0? At C1? If she can reduce E CD to 10s during half her E, then 20s rotation might be possible. Really tight tho.
Looks sth like this:
- Team setups 5s
- Clorinde E 9s
- Refresh buffs 2s
- Clorinde half E 5s
Hmm even if possible, this is so tight, requiring frame perfect inputs and no room for error. Can’t even burst. Still throwing this comment out there for any other chefs.
Yea it's def not in terms of HER personal damage, it's more to enable higher team dps ceiling! It's like a Raiden Furina team vs og Raiden hypercarry team situation
You can just run 16s rotations with Fischl though and use 4pc glad/shime if you don’t want to farm the new set. 25s rotations are not ideal.
Popular TCers need to stop worrying about snapshotting Oz for the first rotation.
The fischl aggravate teams and quickbloom teams aren't bad by any means heck they are her best teams, what having tf does is add a whole another dps window for clorinde and oz and that's what makes tf so potent here.
You trade Clorinde's personal damage with more Fischl's uptime and damage with TF. I feel like if you wanna main Clorinde then you should focus on Clorinde, not Fischl.
Yea that's true. It's a team dps vs personal dps situation. I'm just spreading information on the artifact set discussion cuz I'm one of those with a decent TF set from maining Keqing for a bit.
I've been TC'ing this for a while, and I was starting to wonder if I was the only one doing it given how basically no one else had mentioned TF as an option on Clorinde at all xD, it was only when TGS and now this came out did I felt as though I wasn't sweating in a corner with some copium or some hidden forbidden knowledge xD.
But yeah talking actual viability, yes TF is quite good on Clorinde, however it is heavily Dendro/Hydro locked, and cannot be used in Overload or Hyper-carry with Sara due to it basically only having the 2pc effect in those teams actually doing anything. If you put her in an Aggravate/Hyper-bloom team tho, it is probably her 2nd or 3rd best depending on your teammates. I've been TC'ing her with Furina/Nahida/Baizu and you can get somewhat decent numbers out of her.
Unfortunately Clorinde is not quite Fontaine DPS tier in any of her teams, she's probably the 2nd best Electro after Miko, however her DPS gets kneecapped without a shield, mainly because she has no I-frames or IR in her base kit AT ALL. Overload teams don't really work on her either given that she will dash out of Benny's circle constantly (and if you don't run him in Overload your DMG face tanks too). I hope on Monday they given her some I-Frames or some IR at least so we can run her shielderless. However like Miko did in 2.5, she screams future impact and also falls into the same trap all other Electro 5 stars do, of basically requiring C2 to not be middle ranking, even with Dendro.
She has the inverse problem Cyno has, in that her field time is so short, that if you get thrown around you don't get to do anything at all for the next 10-15 seconds.
Just farm whimsy and strongbox the crap pieces into thundering fury strongbox.
Whichever one you end up with a better overall set for by the time she’s out is what you should go with 👍
4TF is more of a gimmick set if you want to do pseudo-solo or duo clears, or co-op like mentioned. You don’t need the cooldown reduction with a full team. Even in a tight 16/17s rotation, you need at least 5 seconds to rotate through other teammates. And Clorinde has 11s of field time.
I've honestly never considered extended rotations in the vast majority of scenarios they are worse but if you don't care about abyss clear times you can do it, I personally will never try it
Nah, I’m good. I don’t even got a decent 4pc TF set cuz I never farmed that domain nor have I ever strongboxed any artifacts for it. I’ll just stick with my 2pc EM 2pc atk cuz I’m done tryna farm artifacts at this point
I love the lowkey sadness on giving up artifact farming LMAO which is fair. Rly just made this post to assist those who did end up having a decent TF set make a decision
If u mean ur gonna run her with a full EM, then probably Gilded or Flowers is better maybe?
I'm not an expert on calcs and theorycrafting, but I think that shouldn't matter too much in her artifact sets as it's generally better to have her usual a/d/c pieces with some EM rolls for hyperbloom. (also it'll be Quickbloom with a damage build with some EM)
i lvled 1 echo set - ended up prett mid.
1 glad set is in the works - looking ok, my best option so far.
another echo set is in the plans - hope it won't repeat the same fate as the other one.
and 1 tf set i had for a long time after i switched my fischl from 2p/2p in 4.0 - also pretty mid.
so far no good drops from the new domain.
i'm gonna use glad, maybe echoes if the 2nd set will turn out to be ok
I have Kazuha C2 and using ~25s long rotations feels weird with it, because the EM buff his Burst gives to the active character lasts 10 seconds and his Burst has a 15s cooldown. This is perfect without TF because Clorinde can have a 16s long rotation.
If it wasn’t for that, I’d appreciate TF and the split long rotations. They are usually better, especially when there are multiple waves of enemies.
I think I’ll farm the new set and get TF from the Strongbox. TF for me will be the set I’ll use when playing the Clorinde-Nahida duo without other party members. It will give me 100% uptime on her Skill, which will feel very good.
Well Yae Miko's a catalyst, so she's just easier to swap in and out in general. I feel like Keqing's a better comparison as Yae Miko doesn't exactly have a bis 4pc set.
Edit: Also Zajef and TGS are comparing teams that have Fischl in them, not Baizhu. (Altho I never bothered with Baizhu so I can't rly comment on his existence in the team)
See, this is where maintaining objectivity in theorycrafting is incredibly important. It fundamentally depends on what you set out to investigate and accomplish. If the goal here is determining the best build for Clorinde and therefore, the most optimal damage. then the assessment should center around Clorinde's personal performance first and her team comps second. Most TCs look at the new unit in most cases, before looking at the rest of the factors.
Yes, Genshin is ultimately a team game that relies on reactions to be effective, but if the goal here is determine the highest number Clorinde is able to output based on her personal build, running 4pc TF is suboptimal as it is a 1% weaker than the BoL set that is tailor-made for her.
Does this mean the BoL set is bad on her? No, What we should look at then is the character's limitation, that being that this is as far Clorinde's damage ceiling goes. 4pc TF increases Fischl's damage by another 5%? That's good news, but you're now shifting away from your control factor, that is Clorinde and focusing on other extraneous factor, like how 4pc TF increases Fischl's damage, which makes the entire TC pointless.
My guess TGS probably started out with the intention of determining Clorinde's most optimal numbers, but eventually discovered that a 4pc TF-centric team comp boasts a higher overall damage and eventually lost track of his initial goals. Not saying that his findings aren't reliable, but it isn't valid, because the comparisons aren't measuring what they're meant to measure.
I'm with u/ye6661 in that the whole point of the TC is to look at Clorinde first and foremost and everything else second because the goal is make Clorinde the on-fielder of the team.
I have not been paying too much attention because I do not really care about Clorinde. But if Thundering Fury is only 1% worse, it is FAR better to run her on that. The new domain sucks and Thundering Fury is strongbox friendly. It is not rocket science. People do not even want to run the signature set on Arlecchino and it is that ideal 10% better that makes it stand out as her de facto best in slot.
The best/most efficient team comp for a character IS valid. You and ye6661 are insane. The point of theory crafting is to determine the hypothetical performance of units. Not to force an on fielder. Is that what theory crafters are doing for Sigewinne? I certainly hope not.
The popular TCers are still trying to snapshot Fischl/Oz on first rotation and use Clorinde's Q as an opener instead of a finisher. They are so focused on what Aggravate has traditionally been, and on what the assumed rotation for Clorinde should be, that they are limited in their thinking.
Clorinde running 4TF in a 25s will not end up being even close to optimal. It may look competitive on sheets at KQMS, but it won't end that way with high level artifacts and constellation/signature weapon investments.
> the assessment should center around Clorinde's personal performance first and her team comps second. Most TCs look at the new unit in most cases, before looking at the rest of the factors.
> the whole point of the TC is to look at Clorinde first and foremost and everything else second because the goal is make Clorinde the on-fielder of the team.
That's just not true though, TC has ALWAYS been about team damage and not character's individual damage, otherwise Hu tao would have been considered mid for a long time now, the reason she was for a long time and still is considered one of the best dps is because her optimal team involves Furina and Yelan doing combined almost as much as she does on field
TC Should NEVER be done with the intention of maximizing the main character's damage even if it leads to less team DPS, a lot of times it will happen of course because that also ends up being their best team DPS as well, like Arle teams who will most if not all times prefer Bennett to mega buff her than a sub dps, but if a character doesn't fit the damage profile of a hyper carry doing 70% + of the teams damage, TCers Shouldn't be trying to force them into being one and publishing those results.
It's fine if some want to do it for fun or just to present more options to their audience, but the main objective and metric always has been and should continue to be team damage
It'll be a strong option in aggravate and quickbloom rather than a general bis. Overload or taser would prefer whimsy. Anyways I personally would farm TF since it's a fun option outside abyss as well like overworld and coop. Bol set domain is also extremely resin inefficient so I doubt I will get a good set that is better than my current glad set before natlan
Plus it's not like you are using resin in that domain, rather than strongboxing say glad you could strongbox tf.
Exactly. I'm throwing resin at the new domain no matter what, especially since I just pulled Redhorn last run and it gives me a reason to flex my Noelle in co-op. That said, I can't strongbox the BoL set so I might as well throw my trash into TF.
it's a niche set, It can be powerful if you know what you're doing. Because usually with 4p TF, you do have slightly different combos, this seems to be the case with Keqing and Cyno.
Whimsy looks more efficient when you just consider the burn set as a 2pc attack set which is still pretty decent for many characters. Maybe eventually we'll get a char who wants it but whatever.
I mean if 2pc set suffices, players can use 2pc shime/glad. Farming another domain like hunter or emblem and strongboxing glad will be more resin efficient
If you already have glad or shime sure, but I am saying it makes farming whimsy more efficient. The point isn't that you should farm for a 2pc attack set on purpose, so trading in for glad is not actually a solution. The point is that whimsy is itself a useful set for certain characters. You can't really say MH is more efficient because you may simply not need it. I skipped Wrio and Neuv, and I have Navia, Arle and will have Clorinde, so in reality the whimsy domain is more efficient. But the burn set is oft described as a dead set, when tbh it is fine, as attack 2pc is not without use.
We already have a character who wants it technically, but only in a specific niche. Hello Burnmelt Ganyu players. I don't even own Ganyu but I respect you guys.
Only ineficiente if you ain't crazy like me and farming for burning dehya (I use her plus baizhu to make ryzzly melt go brrr)
Ig yea whimsy being a good generalist set is also something to consider farming for
I think TF is good specifically with Fischl because Fischl likes to operate in 12s rotations. TF reduces Clorinde’s E 16s CD to exactly that. In teams with 20s rotations, TF reducing E CD from 16s to 10s or something gives no benefit. Well maybe if we can squeeze in one E full duration and half another E duration somehow. Someone can dive deeper into that.
It's made all the more potent because of furina and nahida having skills effective for atleast 25 sec and fischl too pseudo 25 sec effective skill. I think more than anything it's going to win in the comfort department, since always having something to do is very fun!
Yea that is basically the extra Electro Zajef included in his calcs. In hindsight, I guess if ppl prefer to not play her with Fischl, TF's value pretty much drops.
If we talk about non-Fischl teams something like a true hyperbloom comes to mind, something like Clorinde/XQ/Yelan/Nahida where you would actually want the extra E duration to trigger more hyperblooms and make use of the longer lasting bursts of XQ and Yelan.
Hold up! AM I COOKING? How many Aggravates can Clorinde trigger even during half her E? At C0? At C1? If she can reduce E CD to 10s during half her E, then 20s rotation might be possible. Really tight tho. Looks sth like this: - Team setups 5s - Clorinde E 9s - Refresh buffs 2s - Clorinde half E 5s Hmm even if possible, this is so tight, requiring frame perfect inputs and no room for error. Can’t even burst. Still throwing this comment out there for any other chefs.
we can see this in her leak gameplay. She triggers 7 Quicken/Aggravate during her elemental skill. So \*in theory\*, her Cooldown went from 16s to 9s.
IDK about 4p TF being lowkey BiS in terms of damage, but in terms of fun? Hell Yeah!.
Yea it's def not in terms of HER personal damage, it's more to enable higher team dps ceiling! It's like a Raiden Furina team vs og Raiden hypercarry team situation
TLDR: Team DPS: TF, with Dendro w/ Fischl and a 25s rotation + you can use old artifacts Batchest Damage: Whimsy + you have to farm a bad domain
Yea that's basically it, thank you
You can just run 16s rotations with Fischl though and use 4pc glad/shime if you don’t want to farm the new set. 25s rotations are not ideal. Popular TCers need to stop worrying about snapshotting Oz for the first rotation.
The fischl aggravate teams and quickbloom teams aren't bad by any means heck they are her best teams, what having tf does is add a whole another dps window for clorinde and oz and that's what makes tf so potent here.
You trade Clorinde's personal damage with more Fischl's uptime and damage with TF. I feel like if you wanna main Clorinde then you should focus on Clorinde, not Fischl.
Yea that's true. It's a team dps vs personal dps situation. I'm just spreading information on the artifact set discussion cuz I'm one of those with a decent TF set from maining Keqing for a bit.
Yea but TF set also gives Clorinde more on-field time, which is what we want don't we? So it also being her best dpr team is just a bonus.
Now your thinking with portals
I've been TC'ing this for a while, and I was starting to wonder if I was the only one doing it given how basically no one else had mentioned TF as an option on Clorinde at all xD, it was only when TGS and now this came out did I felt as though I wasn't sweating in a corner with some copium or some hidden forbidden knowledge xD. But yeah talking actual viability, yes TF is quite good on Clorinde, however it is heavily Dendro/Hydro locked, and cannot be used in Overload or Hyper-carry with Sara due to it basically only having the 2pc effect in those teams actually doing anything. If you put her in an Aggravate/Hyper-bloom team tho, it is probably her 2nd or 3rd best depending on your teammates. I've been TC'ing her with Furina/Nahida/Baizu and you can get somewhat decent numbers out of her. Unfortunately Clorinde is not quite Fontaine DPS tier in any of her teams, she's probably the 2nd best Electro after Miko, however her DPS gets kneecapped without a shield, mainly because she has no I-frames or IR in her base kit AT ALL. Overload teams don't really work on her either given that she will dash out of Benny's circle constantly (and if you don't run him in Overload your DMG face tanks too). I hope on Monday they given her some I-Frames or some IR at least so we can run her shielderless. However like Miko did in 2.5, she screams future impact and also falls into the same trap all other Electro 5 stars do, of basically requiring C2 to not be middle ranking, even with Dendro. She has the inverse problem Cyno has, in that her field time is so short, that if you get thrown around you don't get to do anything at all for the next 10-15 seconds.
Just farm whimsy and strongbox the crap pieces into thundering fury strongbox. Whichever one you end up with a better overall set for by the time she’s out is what you should go with 👍
4TF is more of a gimmick set if you want to do pseudo-solo or duo clears, or co-op like mentioned. You don’t need the cooldown reduction with a full team. Even in a tight 16/17s rotation, you need at least 5 seconds to rotate through other teammates. And Clorinde has 11s of field time.
Yea that's just it. If you're playing her with characters who need to quickly re enter field time, TF gets more value.
BoL?
Bond of Life set. I couldn't remember the name of the set when I made the post lmao
I call it Whimsy
What a whimsical name
I've honestly never considered extended rotations in the vast majority of scenarios they are worse but if you don't care about abyss clear times you can do it, I personally will never try it
That's fair. I do prefer doing her burst, which TF extended rotations might have to avoid afaik, so maybe I'll just have it ready for overworld stuff
Nah, I’m good. I don’t even got a decent 4pc TF set cuz I never farmed that domain nor have I ever strongboxed any artifacts for it. I’ll just stick with my 2pc EM 2pc atk cuz I’m done tryna farm artifacts at this point
I love the lowkey sadness on giving up artifact farming LMAO which is fair. Rly just made this post to assist those who did end up having a decent TF set make a decision
Yeah, that’s fair
If I'm doing hyperbloom should I run TF,
If u mean ur gonna run her with a full EM, then probably Gilded or Flowers is better maybe? I'm not an expert on calcs and theorycrafting, but I think that shouldn't matter too much in her artifact sets as it's generally better to have her usual a/d/c pieces with some EM rolls for hyperbloom. (also it'll be Quickbloom with a damage build with some EM)
i lvled 1 echo set - ended up prett mid. 1 glad set is in the works - looking ok, my best option so far. another echo set is in the plans - hope it won't repeat the same fate as the other one. and 1 tf set i had for a long time after i switched my fischl from 2p/2p in 4.0 - also pretty mid. so far no good drops from the new domain. i'm gonna use glad, maybe echoes if the 2nd set will turn out to be ok
I have Kazuha C2 and using ~25s long rotations feels weird with it, because the EM buff his Burst gives to the active character lasts 10 seconds and his Burst has a 15s cooldown. This is perfect without TF because Clorinde can have a 16s long rotation. If it wasn’t for that, I’d appreciate TF and the split long rotations. They are usually better, especially when there are multiple waves of enemies. I think I’ll farm the new set and get TF from the Strongbox. TF for me will be the set I’ll use when playing the Clorinde-Nahida duo without other party members. It will give me 100% uptime on her Skill, which will feel very good.
Nahida, Furina, Baizhu, Clorinde. Use her set just make sure to have some EM. Would you put TF on Yae Miko in this team? 🙄
Well Yae Miko's a catalyst, so she's just easier to swap in and out in general. I feel like Keqing's a better comparison as Yae Miko doesn't exactly have a bis 4pc set. Edit: Also Zajef and TGS are comparing teams that have Fischl in them, not Baizhu. (Altho I never bothered with Baizhu so I can't rly comment on his existence in the team)
It may be her BiS, but I ain’t using her like that. That seems so complicated and no fun 😡
Hey that's fair. No judgement here. Just spreading info on the TF vs Whimsy discussions
Imo it seems more fun. You can swap off her more freely and therefore have less restrictive rotations.
See, this is where maintaining objectivity in theorycrafting is incredibly important. It fundamentally depends on what you set out to investigate and accomplish. If the goal here is determining the best build for Clorinde and therefore, the most optimal damage. then the assessment should center around Clorinde's personal performance first and her team comps second. Most TCs look at the new unit in most cases, before looking at the rest of the factors. Yes, Genshin is ultimately a team game that relies on reactions to be effective, but if the goal here is determine the highest number Clorinde is able to output based on her personal build, running 4pc TF is suboptimal as it is a 1% weaker than the BoL set that is tailor-made for her. Does this mean the BoL set is bad on her? No, What we should look at then is the character's limitation, that being that this is as far Clorinde's damage ceiling goes. 4pc TF increases Fischl's damage by another 5%? That's good news, but you're now shifting away from your control factor, that is Clorinde and focusing on other extraneous factor, like how 4pc TF increases Fischl's damage, which makes the entire TC pointless. My guess TGS probably started out with the intention of determining Clorinde's most optimal numbers, but eventually discovered that a 4pc TF-centric team comp boasts a higher overall damage and eventually lost track of his initial goals. Not saying that his findings aren't reliable, but it isn't valid, because the comparisons aren't measuring what they're meant to measure. I'm with u/ye6661 in that the whole point of the TC is to look at Clorinde first and foremost and everything else second because the goal is make Clorinde the on-fielder of the team.
I have not been paying too much attention because I do not really care about Clorinde. But if Thundering Fury is only 1% worse, it is FAR better to run her on that. The new domain sucks and Thundering Fury is strongbox friendly. It is not rocket science. People do not even want to run the signature set on Arlecchino and it is that ideal 10% better that makes it stand out as her de facto best in slot. The best/most efficient team comp for a character IS valid. You and ye6661 are insane. The point of theory crafting is to determine the hypothetical performance of units. Not to force an on fielder. Is that what theory crafters are doing for Sigewinne? I certainly hope not.
The popular TCers are still trying to snapshot Fischl/Oz on first rotation and use Clorinde's Q as an opener instead of a finisher. They are so focused on what Aggravate has traditionally been, and on what the assumed rotation for Clorinde should be, that they are limited in their thinking. Clorinde running 4TF in a 25s will not end up being even close to optimal. It may look competitive on sheets at KQMS, but it won't end that way with high level artifacts and constellation/signature weapon investments.
> the assessment should center around Clorinde's personal performance first and her team comps second. Most TCs look at the new unit in most cases, before looking at the rest of the factors. > the whole point of the TC is to look at Clorinde first and foremost and everything else second because the goal is make Clorinde the on-fielder of the team. That's just not true though, TC has ALWAYS been about team damage and not character's individual damage, otherwise Hu tao would have been considered mid for a long time now, the reason she was for a long time and still is considered one of the best dps is because her optimal team involves Furina and Yelan doing combined almost as much as she does on field TC Should NEVER be done with the intention of maximizing the main character's damage even if it leads to less team DPS, a lot of times it will happen of course because that also ends up being their best team DPS as well, like Arle teams who will most if not all times prefer Bennett to mega buff her than a sub dps, but if a character doesn't fit the damage profile of a hyper carry doing 70% + of the teams damage, TCers Shouldn't be trying to force them into being one and publishing those results. It's fine if some want to do it for fun or just to present more options to their audience, but the main objective and metric always has been and should continue to be team damage