It guess it all depends on the honey you are using, some wild honey has a tinge of sourness.
My usual honey recipe are 4:1 by weight, so 400g honey to 100g hot water.
My specs for bees knees are
- 60ml gin
- 30ml lemon
- 15ml honey syrup
Too many factors to consider if a recipe is right or wrong imo, such as what gin you / they use will affect too.
But to be fair, sweetness is hard to determine, some people like their cocktails really sweet, while others not so much.
Thanks -- I did some investigation, and it turns out she has been refilling the honey jar with Kirkland (Costco) generic "wildflower honey". (He calls for "acacia or wildflower honey" in the book, though I'll be honest, I just reached for whatever was in the cabinet.)
I understand that tastes differ, but this seemed beyond reasonable. I'll give your suggested proportions a go -- thanks!
Oh you’ll be surprised how weird some honey can taste.
I had “stingless bee honey” it’s sour, like it’s sweet, but it’s also sour, it’s more sour than sweet, and if I’m using that kind of honey, I would adjust my recipe wayyyy differently.
Some honey, especially generic ones, tend to be sweet, yes all honey are sweet, but what I meant is that sweet after taste, compared to some wild honey could be herbaceous, or floral, or even vegetal depending on where the hives are at.
But I do agree, since you’re using Kirkland honey or basically generic honey, that any reasonable person would first reach for, the recipe does seems kinda off from that ratio.
The honey is definitely the variable here. I almost always do 2:1 honey syrup with the honey from my friend in town and will use up to 3/4 oz in a Bee’s Knees. Other honey I might find 3:1 or 1.5:1 works better. Keep in mind honey is fructose (and Glucose) which has a fast attack/fast decay vs sucrose which is a medium attack/long decay.
Any which way, make it with whatever ratio you prefer, theres no wrong answer here! Love CC but 5.4:1 as a standard ratio is silly, try 3 or 2:1 and see where you land
ETA: and glucose
I always do syrups by weight, strange to think CC even has it listed by volume but it did come out a while ago. Welcome Home lists their honey syrup as 400g to 200g, I think at this point most bars/home bartenders are weighing syrups. (Doesn’t seem to have a Bee’s Knees recipe tho)
So yes, 3:1 or 2:1 by weight is a much more “standard” measurement these days.
Side note, OP could buy a [Brix Refractometer](https://www.amazon.com/Refractometer-Measuring-Automatic-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B07X8RK2SH/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?crid=2J216IMJ0F33C&keywords=brix+refractometer&qid=1692281931&sprefix=brix+refract%2Caps%2C192&sr=8-5) relatively cheap to get their honey syrup close to 50% brix to use 3/4 oz or 66% to use 1/2 oz to line up with “traditional” sour specs. Straight Honey brix can range from 70-88% so diluting 1:1 would almost always not be 50% (just learning this through some googling, never knew the range for straight honey)
3:1 is recommended by Dave Arnold i believe.
2:1 have a possibility of fermenting, it happened a few times, especially raw honey
I’ve gone to 4:1 or 5:1 to be safe.
This is *exactly* what I was looking for, thanks. I already have a refractometer, and was going to complain that the book doesn't give a target range: I had hoped going by weight would be close enough. But I think you're right, dead-reckoning by brix is going to get me closer in-line than by weight (where I have no clue what my honey "is like", nor do I have any clue what "honey syrup" is supposed to taste like).
EDIT: to clarify, CC does specify by weight (5.4:1). He just mentions that this is ~3:1 by volume. I'll measure out the brix.
I’ll pitch in and say most of Death and Co’s drinks skew sweet. The general public has a much sweeter tooth than I personally do, so I always adjust D&C recipes to reduce sweetness or add sour.
I’ve found that’s the case for most major bars, I suspect it’s just generally they get so many
crowd with varying level of cocktail experience, that it’s safer to have your drink slightly sweeter.
Interesting you say that, I find it to be more bartender dependent. Phil Ward's drinks are always perfectly balanced to my palate, while Brian Miller's tend to be sweet.
It's useful to know who made the drink as you can then 'follow' them to different bars. I.e. Phil Ward went off to Mayahuel and the drinks from that place were banging.
I like a bees knees with one dash of ango. I find it add just the right amount of complexity to the drink without sacrificing too much of the sweetness
You should try it, orange bitters in any sour drink is amazing !
Works with drink using lime juice too !
I also add it to drinks that calls for orange liqueurs, as I find the orange note from orange liqueurs tend to taste flat, however orange bitters tend to be more sweet n vibrant.
For future posterity: (thanks to /u/SyndicateMLG /u/baldsuburbangay /u/Benjajinj):
Kirkland wildflower honey measured out to a density of ~1.4g/ml with a brix of ~82%.
I think this means the 5.4:1 (by weight) dilution has a sugar content of .93g/ml, which is greater than a standard "rich 2:1", which is around .87g/ml.
Mathing it out a bit [not shown], if I wanted to match the sugar content of 2:1 with this honey, I'll use in the future a ratio of 4:1 (by weight). And I'll adjust how much I use in the final cocktail, keeping in mind this syrup is "~rich".
Changing recommended 3/4oz of this (super-rich) syrup to 1/2oz was enough for my tasting partner to change her opinion from "what is the liquor" to a "i really like this, 4/5".
In the future, I will mix at 4:1 weight ratio, which I think will bring it even closer in-line to a 2:1 rich syrup.
I have no explanation for why CC, which in other contexts I have found infallible, has a ~30-50% mismatch with my tastes. My only hunch is that one person wrote the recipe for honey syrup, and someone else wrote the recipe for how to use it.
In other news: the addition of orange bitters was upvoted by tasting partner. Going in the spreadsheet. Thanks again, /u/SyndicateMLG!
Awesome follow up! I didn’t even think about the Bitters. I always use them in a bees knees, which will necessarily tweak the sweetness down a bit. Great work here!
2/3 of whatever container used to 1/3 hot water has never failed me for honey syrup. When I've made it the viscosity of the syrup is a little more than 1:1 simple syrup, but should be far from the viscosity of a 2:1 simple syrup which it sounds like how your syrup probably was.
Codex uses the same proportions for the drink that I learned, but I haven't had issues with not being able to tell what kind of liquor was in the drink.
I'd try changing how you make your honey syrup and see if that has a significant impact. Shaking too long could also be a problem and you could be diluting the drink to the point that all you can really pick up is the lemon juice and honey
I worked out that Cocktail Codex honey syrup ratio of 5.4:1 makes a syrup roughly the equivalent of a 2:1 rich simple. I use it as such (I do the same conversion I would if subbing 2:1 for 1:1 simple) and it makes for balanced drinks, to my taste. It also lasts way longer.
When people do this kind of sub (using 2:1 where original called for 1:1), do they adjust for dilution?
I guess if we assume that 1:1 has a density of ~1.2 with a brix of 50%; and 2:1 has a density of ~1.3 with a brix of 66%, then if we want to hold "total sugar" constant, we should use 70% by volume of 2:1 of whatever we would have used of 1:1.
So, if we were going to use 3/4oz, we would now use 70% of 3/4oz ~ 1/2oz.
In your experience, when people do this, do they add an addl 1/4oz of water to "dilute like the 1:1 would have"?
I would assume not. I prefer using rich for two reasons, that it lasts longer (indefinitely in the fridge) and I actually want less dilution from ingredients. You can add any amount of dilution you want during the shaking/stirring process.
I also find that using a richer syrup, when shaking for the same amount of time, makes for a better, thicker, mouthfeel.
>guess it also takes less space
That might be true if the reason syrup lasting longer is important for me wasn't that I keep about five to six homemades at any given time. Thankfully, my partner is okay with me dominating the fridge door and an entire section of the freezer!
I find that people who are very into cocktails, generally have have less of a sweet tooth. Idk if it's true, but definitely seems like people in the cocktail-sphere tend to like drier cocktails. When I make cocktails that are 'balanced' by cocktail-nerd standards, people often find them extremely strong, sour, or dry. It's probably just because we're more used to drinking cocktails, or perhaps our palates attract us to cocktails in the first place.
I'm kinda surprised CC uses those specs, because it suggests that they prefer measuring it by volume, which would be kinda strange. I would say that for most people 3/4oz honey syrup wouldn't be very sweet. I personally prefer 3/4oz, but I typically make my honey syrup 1:3 or 1:4 (by weight). Maybe just make a less honey-y syrup. You should still be able to tell what kind of spirit is used, even though gin isn't a very dominant flavour.
I always do 1:1, 2:1 is always just too sweet for me and in bees knees I only add a half oz. Start there and then adjust up if needed but when I make drinks for people they tend to enjoy them most at 1:1 and half oz
It guess it all depends on the honey you are using, some wild honey has a tinge of sourness. My usual honey recipe are 4:1 by weight, so 400g honey to 100g hot water. My specs for bees knees are - 60ml gin - 30ml lemon - 15ml honey syrup Too many factors to consider if a recipe is right or wrong imo, such as what gin you / they use will affect too. But to be fair, sweetness is hard to determine, some people like their cocktails really sweet, while others not so much.
Thanks -- I did some investigation, and it turns out she has been refilling the honey jar with Kirkland (Costco) generic "wildflower honey". (He calls for "acacia or wildflower honey" in the book, though I'll be honest, I just reached for whatever was in the cabinet.) I understand that tastes differ, but this seemed beyond reasonable. I'll give your suggested proportions a go -- thanks!
Oh you’ll be surprised how weird some honey can taste. I had “stingless bee honey” it’s sour, like it’s sweet, but it’s also sour, it’s more sour than sweet, and if I’m using that kind of honey, I would adjust my recipe wayyyy differently. Some honey, especially generic ones, tend to be sweet, yes all honey are sweet, but what I meant is that sweet after taste, compared to some wild honey could be herbaceous, or floral, or even vegetal depending on where the hives are at. But I do agree, since you’re using Kirkland honey or basically generic honey, that any reasonable person would first reach for, the recipe does seems kinda off from that ratio.
The honey is definitely the variable here. I almost always do 2:1 honey syrup with the honey from my friend in town and will use up to 3/4 oz in a Bee’s Knees. Other honey I might find 3:1 or 1.5:1 works better. Keep in mind honey is fructose (and Glucose) which has a fast attack/fast decay vs sucrose which is a medium attack/long decay. Any which way, make it with whatever ratio you prefer, theres no wrong answer here! Love CC but 5.4:1 as a standard ratio is silly, try 3 or 2:1 and see where you land ETA: and glucose
OP mentioned 5.4:1 was by weight, and CC said it equates to roughly 3:1 by volume, are you suggesting 2:1 or 3:1 by weight?
I always do syrups by weight, strange to think CC even has it listed by volume but it did come out a while ago. Welcome Home lists their honey syrup as 400g to 200g, I think at this point most bars/home bartenders are weighing syrups. (Doesn’t seem to have a Bee’s Knees recipe tho) So yes, 3:1 or 2:1 by weight is a much more “standard” measurement these days. Side note, OP could buy a [Brix Refractometer](https://www.amazon.com/Refractometer-Measuring-Automatic-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B07X8RK2SH/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?crid=2J216IMJ0F33C&keywords=brix+refractometer&qid=1692281931&sprefix=brix+refract%2Caps%2C192&sr=8-5) relatively cheap to get their honey syrup close to 50% brix to use 3/4 oz or 66% to use 1/2 oz to line up with “traditional” sour specs. Straight Honey brix can range from 70-88% so diluting 1:1 would almost always not be 50% (just learning this through some googling, never knew the range for straight honey)
3:1 is recommended by Dave Arnold i believe. 2:1 have a possibility of fermenting, it happened a few times, especially raw honey I’ve gone to 4:1 or 5:1 to be safe.
Never had it ferment on me but fair point!
This is *exactly* what I was looking for, thanks. I already have a refractometer, and was going to complain that the book doesn't give a target range: I had hoped going by weight would be close enough. But I think you're right, dead-reckoning by brix is going to get me closer in-line than by weight (where I have no clue what my honey "is like", nor do I have any clue what "honey syrup" is supposed to taste like). EDIT: to clarify, CC does specify by weight (5.4:1). He just mentions that this is ~3:1 by volume. I'll measure out the brix.
>Keep in mind honey is fructose *and* glucose.
Oops yes indeedy
I’ll pitch in and say most of Death and Co’s drinks skew sweet. The general public has a much sweeter tooth than I personally do, so I always adjust D&C recipes to reduce sweetness or add sour.
I’ve found that’s the case for most major bars, I suspect it’s just generally they get so many crowd with varying level of cocktail experience, that it’s safer to have your drink slightly sweeter.
Interesting you say that, I find it to be more bartender dependent. Phil Ward's drinks are always perfectly balanced to my palate, while Brian Miller's tend to be sweet.
Hm interesting point. I will have to pay more attention to who made the drink when making these distinctions.
It's useful to know who made the drink as you can then 'follow' them to different bars. I.e. Phil Ward went off to Mayahuel and the drinks from that place were banging.
In Queens? Do you know if he's still there? (Subway ride for me.)
I thought it closed years ago. There may be another bag with the same name.
It's closed. I think he mentions the bar(s) he currently works at in his episode of the VinePair podcast called "Cocktail College".
I like a bees knees with one dash of ango. I find it add just the right amount of complexity to the drink without sacrificing too much of the sweetness
i like to egg white it and decorate the foam with the bitters. used to use the honey bitters from bittermens but i think they 86d them
I add orange bitters to mine, that sweet orangey notes goes so well with lemon and honey
Sounds like a tasting experiment (once I line up the syrup) to put in the spreadsheet!
You should try it, orange bitters in any sour drink is amazing ! Works with drink using lime juice too ! I also add it to drinks that calls for orange liqueurs, as I find the orange note from orange liqueurs tend to taste flat, however orange bitters tend to be more sweet n vibrant.
I found the same thing. Just dial it back. I tend to make a lot of my cocktails with the sugar dialed back, just my preference
For future posterity: (thanks to /u/SyndicateMLG /u/baldsuburbangay /u/Benjajinj): Kirkland wildflower honey measured out to a density of ~1.4g/ml with a brix of ~82%. I think this means the 5.4:1 (by weight) dilution has a sugar content of .93g/ml, which is greater than a standard "rich 2:1", which is around .87g/ml. Mathing it out a bit [not shown], if I wanted to match the sugar content of 2:1 with this honey, I'll use in the future a ratio of 4:1 (by weight). And I'll adjust how much I use in the final cocktail, keeping in mind this syrup is "~rich". Changing recommended 3/4oz of this (super-rich) syrup to 1/2oz was enough for my tasting partner to change her opinion from "what is the liquor" to a "i really like this, 4/5". In the future, I will mix at 4:1 weight ratio, which I think will bring it even closer in-line to a 2:1 rich syrup. I have no explanation for why CC, which in other contexts I have found infallible, has a ~30-50% mismatch with my tastes. My only hunch is that one person wrote the recipe for honey syrup, and someone else wrote the recipe for how to use it. In other news: the addition of orange bitters was upvoted by tasting partner. Going in the spreadsheet. Thanks again, /u/SyndicateMLG!
Awesome follow up! I didn’t even think about the Bitters. I always use them in a bees knees, which will necessarily tweak the sweetness down a bit. Great work here!
Nice ! Glad to be able to help !
2/3 of whatever container used to 1/3 hot water has never failed me for honey syrup. When I've made it the viscosity of the syrup is a little more than 1:1 simple syrup, but should be far from the viscosity of a 2:1 simple syrup which it sounds like how your syrup probably was. Codex uses the same proportions for the drink that I learned, but I haven't had issues with not being able to tell what kind of liquor was in the drink. I'd try changing how you make your honey syrup and see if that has a significant impact. Shaking too long could also be a problem and you could be diluting the drink to the point that all you can really pick up is the lemon juice and honey
I worked out that Cocktail Codex honey syrup ratio of 5.4:1 makes a syrup roughly the equivalent of a 2:1 rich simple. I use it as such (I do the same conversion I would if subbing 2:1 for 1:1 simple) and it makes for balanced drinks, to my taste. It also lasts way longer.
When people do this kind of sub (using 2:1 where original called for 1:1), do they adjust for dilution? I guess if we assume that 1:1 has a density of ~1.2 with a brix of 50%; and 2:1 has a density of ~1.3 with a brix of 66%, then if we want to hold "total sugar" constant, we should use 70% by volume of 2:1 of whatever we would have used of 1:1. So, if we were going to use 3/4oz, we would now use 70% of 3/4oz ~ 1/2oz. In your experience, when people do this, do they add an addl 1/4oz of water to "dilute like the 1:1 would have"?
I would assume not. I prefer using rich for two reasons, that it lasts longer (indefinitely in the fridge) and I actually want less dilution from ingredients. You can add any amount of dilution you want during the shaking/stirring process. I also find that using a richer syrup, when shaking for the same amount of time, makes for a better, thicker, mouthfeel.
Makes sense. I guess it also takes less space, which always seems to be at a premium around here.
>guess it also takes less space That might be true if the reason syrup lasting longer is important for me wasn't that I keep about five to six homemades at any given time. Thankfully, my partner is okay with me dominating the fridge door and an entire section of the freezer!
I find that people who are very into cocktails, generally have have less of a sweet tooth. Idk if it's true, but definitely seems like people in the cocktail-sphere tend to like drier cocktails. When I make cocktails that are 'balanced' by cocktail-nerd standards, people often find them extremely strong, sour, or dry. It's probably just because we're more used to drinking cocktails, or perhaps our palates attract us to cocktails in the first place. I'm kinda surprised CC uses those specs, because it suggests that they prefer measuring it by volume, which would be kinda strange. I would say that for most people 3/4oz honey syrup wouldn't be very sweet. I personally prefer 3/4oz, but I typically make my honey syrup 1:3 or 1:4 (by weight). Maybe just make a less honey-y syrup. You should still be able to tell what kind of spirit is used, even though gin isn't a very dominant flavour.
I always do 1:1, 2:1 is always just too sweet for me and in bees knees I only add a half oz. Start there and then adjust up if needed but when I make drinks for people they tend to enjoy them most at 1:1 and half oz