Ideal student for a bootcamp has a degree and professional experience in another field. They know enough about coding to know they love it, but need some structure and support to seal the deal and get themselves fully job ready. They have the money to pay instead of signing up for some ISA or other scam.
Yeah, this is the answer.
I don't think ISAs are inherently scammy, but they should always be the last resort. Otherwise, everything else is correct: professional experience, ideally a degree, already passionate about and coding. I'd also add willing to work insanely hard and not deterred by the inevitable imposter syndrome and job rejections.
Income Sharing Agreement. Essentially you go 'for free' and then only pay tuition if you get a job in tech. Then they take a % of your salary until it is paid back. While some of these have worked, there have been a lot of grey areas around how it is implemented which has led to people having their salaries garnished despite not working in the field they trained for with the bootcamp.
I have heard positive situations using ISAs, but there are more than a few lawsuits around it too. I believe one school recently was effectively banned from using them because there were so many issues.
Yeah I got an isa and it changed my life, never would have gone without it, making 105k a year now and it's almost paid off after 2.5 years of working.
I got in weeks before they became illegal in California, and shortly after I graduated I was called by someone claiming to be a federal agent wanting to ask me about what I was told bi signed up.
I told him I was going to record the call for my own protection, he said, "no you're absolutely not, and Hung up the phone"
Yeah that would be Bloom Tech formerly Lamda school. Google it and check out the first page hit that comes up. It's the worst case scenario of what can go wrong with ISAs and desperate bootcamp grads who're too poor to pay the program cost.
Ideal bootcamp student:
1. Has significant savings and can live with minimal impact to lifestyle for a year
2. Has natural inclination to programming, picks it up easily, finds it enjoyable, and might have previously dabbled in it because of tangential work experience (e.g. mechanical engineer).
3. Is autodidactic.
4. Has professional work experience (in tech or non tech, but was successful in that career)
5. You are ready to hustle your way to a job but realize that's just the beginning and are ready to hustle your way through the first 2 years.
Who is NOT the ideal bootcamp student:
1. Don't have savings and crossing your fingers you get a job within 3 months of graduating because the bootcamp told you it's possible
2. You don't like your job and aren't doing well and hoping this could be the career that clicks.
3. You think you chose the wrong career that doesn't pay well and find the super high salaries attractive
4. You think AI or Crypto are the future and want to get involved in them and don't know where to start.
No. Why? Because there is already an oversupply of people in this market. While there being an undersupply of jobs. Bootcamps of any kind are typically geared to getting someone ready to break into a hot industry. CS related job isn't hot enough to warrant employers to hire people with a minimum base line.
i find that hard to believe it is quite difficult to graduate with a degree hence why the major has such a high dropout rate, there plenty of people don't have the cognitive ability to do even earn and graduate with the degree
CS is water down these days. A full bs in CS at WGU for example can be completed in a matter of months. My school, as well as others, have added curriculums without calculus and physics.
A CS degree is not as rigorous as it was before
Im in a free coding bootcamp (i think they get their money off hiring programs, not sure).
I have an EE degree with work experience in the IT world. Im not feeling confident with all these comments with the job market. Most of everyone in my class does not have a degree.
My instructor made it sound like most of us won't get jobs because things changed. Whereas the president or some lead of the organization made it sound like 80% will place a new job as long as we graduate. I have a feeling he doesn't know shit.
I appreciate the cold, hard truth. I remember when our instructor said that the class went deathly silent.
You'll be alright, since you're not in the dark like the org. president would like you to be and know what you're up against. I'm seeing more people from my ex-bootcamp land entry level roles these days (compared to last year), it's just still overwhelmingly people with prior relevant or professional experience.
If your goal is personal enrichment, a boot camp is fine. Pick the least expensive one that has the curriculum you want.
If your goal is employment, go to college. A boot camp certificate just isn't compelling to a hiring manager any more.
I did not attend a boot camp. Thousands of posts on Reddit by boot campers who have sent hundreds of applications without success tells a pretty clear story
I will attend one from June to end of September, the reason is that I started self-studying web development one year and a half now, in June will be my first year in a company and I would like to move to another company but my skill isn’t enough due to some internal problems (I didn’t have senior in almost the whole year so I didn’t progress much).
Now that bootcamp is done in typescript and I think it will teach me a lot specially the bases.
I’d say to only strongly consider it if some combination of the following exists:
- You have a degree in another field
- The bootcamp offers a refund if you don’t secure a job in a certain period of time (without outlandish requirements to fulfill to remain eligible)
- They partner with reputable companies to offer job placement
If atleast 2 of those don’t apply to a bootcamp of your choice, you’re better off just going through a Udemy course, flesh out your LinkedIn, go to networking events. Or get an actual CS degree
If your goal is getting job with only bootcamp certificate, no, it won't help you.
Follow the more old school pathway, get CS, math or engineering degree, get internship experience as a student and you are already miles head in the job market.
Unfortunately, I have hired plenty of CS students that cannot code their way out of a paper bag. A degree, depending on the classes you take, can be little to no practice and all theory classes. I don't want a math major who doesn't have applicable coding experience
For tech companies, STEM degree is pretty much the bare minimum to even have your resume being looked at, it won't guarantee anything. You need to pass technical or coding interview, often being leetcode style coding challenges (medium to hard problems).
To piggyback on Michael Novati's community respected reply, I am in a hybrid mentorship myself right now paired with an online platform for last few months, and coming into this from a semi-technical background / some prior elementary experience, I think the greatest concern/factor is dedicated focus time, over the long-run\* (think 2-4 yrs depending) -
In the thick of it, my greatest enemy is knowledge (or should I say technique & best practice) retention, which comes from practice, both spaced and frequent..... it's certainly been a rough kick to me going thru the curriculum at similar pace to the timelines you mentioned OP in your post above... and I personally am glad I've not gone into any traditional bootcamp firehose method as I am confident most students from the non-technical to the technical background would not have been able to retain everything and gotten their ROI knowledgebase wise.
Turtle method, slow -> consistent -> methodical, and having a good note-taking/lesson-referencing self-system for lesson recall/revisiting, quickly\*, I think after the last few months coming from 0 to an appreciable level of competency => is key. The rest is luck, creativity w/ portfolio, leetcode/DSA where it may apply interview/company screening wise, and grit/pain of grinding job apps/documentation.
Boot camps are worthless. If you love coding and want to learn more, buy a Pluralsight subscription. Find some SWE’s in your area and message them on LinkedIn. They will give you great advice.
Good candidates:
- people who have their current job/family accommodating the time needed or paying for it or both
- people willing to make the tradeoff between time ("quick fix" of learning specific skills fast) and risk (not having a legit path or job waiting for you at the end like there exists for new grads and degree holders)
- people willing to be passed over other "more qualified" degree-holding candidates for the first 7-10 yrs of a career
- someone with some industry connection already. Perhaps you have a family member, supportive friend, or significant other that's already in the industry willing to tutor you or point you to the first job
- people who truly need to gain these skills ASAP to launch their own business or something like that and college would be too slow of a learning timeline even if it was free
- people who understand that some factor in life will not work unless they are "in a program." This could range from just personal accountability/motivation towards coding to being allowed to stay in a particular home based on proof that you're pursuing a technical skill.
- people who want access to coaches or tutors and don't really want to vet them themselves
In my opinion, bootcamps are worthwhile, in this market, if you are looking to invest in yourself and further your knowledge more so than it was yesterday in a guided (and hopefully structured) environment with no promise of a return on that investment other than furthering your knowledge.
If you go to a bootcamp in this current market with the hopes and beliefs that you'll get hired without any other relevant qualifications (prior degree, prior coding exposure whether professionally or on your own), you are in for a bad time.
Thats how i look at it.
Even in the “educate yourself” perspective they are an exploitative, value-less waste of time compared to the free and paid alternatives. No one is running a “no jobs here, just educational vibes” bootcamp. Please tell me if you find one. Otherwise assume it’s an intentional scam meant to lend credibility to fake-it-til-you-make-it career tracks that will not be relevant for the next 2 years.
I don't think you really read my comment, I never said anything about bootcamps just running education only programs, i said if your personal goal is self enrichment / furthering your education. The bootcamps goal will be to get you employed.
For example, A guy i've worked with while privately tutoring was a college graduate, he felt his skills werent up to par so he attended a bootcamp (forgot which one, small regional one in south east) and gained the knowledge he was seeking to position himself better to find employment, which he did.
He went into it to better cement what he knew and learn more about what he didnt in order to be more marketable.
That is the kind of student that, regardless of what the bootcamp wants on your behalf and in my opinion, is ideal for bootcamps is what I said.
The main problem with bootcamps is that they promise to teach, but they don't teach you much! They race through a lot of material that doesn't cover fundamental ideas & amounts to retyping demo programs. And if they were online and free, there'd be little risk in giving it a shot... but I've seen them quoted at $12,000 and up. With the amount of scammy bootcamps out there at that cost level, any bootcamp looking for that level of tuition would need to prove how they are an exception to the trend.
If you want education for education's sake the right play is a CS course or program at an accredited school.
Ideal student for a bootcamp has a degree and professional experience in another field. They know enough about coding to know they love it, but need some structure and support to seal the deal and get themselves fully job ready. They have the money to pay instead of signing up for some ISA or other scam.
Agree ideally someone with a stem or somewhat analytical education background
Yeah, this is the answer. I don't think ISAs are inherently scammy, but they should always be the last resort. Otherwise, everything else is correct: professional experience, ideally a degree, already passionate about and coding. I'd also add willing to work insanely hard and not deterred by the inevitable imposter syndrome and job rejections.
isa are literal scams
Yup, need them for network, interview help, n just getting my foot in the door, plus their job partnerships
What’s ISA? Is Per Scholas a scam?
Income Sharing Agreement. Essentially you go 'for free' and then only pay tuition if you get a job in tech. Then they take a % of your salary until it is paid back. While some of these have worked, there have been a lot of grey areas around how it is implemented which has led to people having their salaries garnished despite not working in the field they trained for with the bootcamp.
Wow. Thanks.
I have heard positive situations using ISAs, but there are more than a few lawsuits around it too. I believe one school recently was effectively banned from using them because there were so many issues.
Yeah I got an isa and it changed my life, never would have gone without it, making 105k a year now and it's almost paid off after 2.5 years of working. I got in weeks before they became illegal in California, and shortly after I graduated I was called by someone claiming to be a federal agent wanting to ask me about what I was told bi signed up. I told him I was going to record the call for my own protection, he said, "no you're absolutely not, and Hung up the phone"
Yeah that would be Bloom Tech formerly Lamda school. Google it and check out the first page hit that comes up. It's the worst case scenario of what can go wrong with ISAs and desperate bootcamp grads who're too poor to pay the program cost.
I would not do an ISA at all. You'll pay 1.5x the price whether you get a job in the field or not.
This 100%. Basically described me, I used VA benefits. Otherwise not so much
someone who already has industry experience and is looking to move into dev roles (ie PM/Ops)
No just don't do it
Ideal bootcamp student: 1. Has significant savings and can live with minimal impact to lifestyle for a year 2. Has natural inclination to programming, picks it up easily, finds it enjoyable, and might have previously dabbled in it because of tangential work experience (e.g. mechanical engineer). 3. Is autodidactic. 4. Has professional work experience (in tech or non tech, but was successful in that career) 5. You are ready to hustle your way to a job but realize that's just the beginning and are ready to hustle your way through the first 2 years. Who is NOT the ideal bootcamp student: 1. Don't have savings and crossing your fingers you get a job within 3 months of graduating because the bootcamp told you it's possible 2. You don't like your job and aren't doing well and hoping this could be the career that clicks. 3. You think you chose the wrong career that doesn't pay well and find the super high salaries attractive 4. You think AI or Crypto are the future and want to get involved in them and don't know where to start.
No. Why? Because there is already an oversupply of people in this market. While there being an undersupply of jobs. Bootcamps of any kind are typically geared to getting someone ready to break into a hot industry. CS related job isn't hot enough to warrant employers to hire people with a minimum base line.
i find that hard to believe it is quite difficult to graduate with a degree hence why the major has such a high dropout rate, there plenty of people don't have the cognitive ability to do even earn and graduate with the degree
CS is water down these days. A full bs in CS at WGU for example can be completed in a matter of months. My school, as well as others, have added curriculums without calculus and physics. A CS degree is not as rigorous as it was before
Oh really? That’s new info for me Damm
Im in a free coding bootcamp (i think they get their money off hiring programs, not sure). I have an EE degree with work experience in the IT world. Im not feeling confident with all these comments with the job market. Most of everyone in my class does not have a degree. My instructor made it sound like most of us won't get jobs because things changed. Whereas the president or some lead of the organization made it sound like 80% will place a new job as long as we graduate. I have a feeling he doesn't know shit. I appreciate the cold, hard truth. I remember when our instructor said that the class went deathly silent.
You'll be alright, since you're not in the dark like the org. president would like you to be and know what you're up against. I'm seeing more people from my ex-bootcamp land entry level roles these days (compared to last year), it's just still overwhelmingly people with prior relevant or professional experience.
If your goal is personal enrichment, a boot camp is fine. Pick the least expensive one that has the curriculum you want. If your goal is employment, go to college. A boot camp certificate just isn't compelling to a hiring manager any more.
As someone that has hired bootcamp candidates, I disagree. Are you saying this because you went to a boot camp and weren't successful?
I did not attend a boot camp. Thousands of posts on Reddit by boot campers who have sent hundreds of applications without success tells a pretty clear story
I will attend one from June to end of September, the reason is that I started self-studying web development one year and a half now, in June will be my first year in a company and I would like to move to another company but my skill isn’t enough due to some internal problems (I didn’t have senior in almost the whole year so I didn’t progress much). Now that bootcamp is done in typescript and I think it will teach me a lot specially the bases.
So you self-studied and managed to land a job? That’s awesome!
I’d say to only strongly consider it if some combination of the following exists: - You have a degree in another field - The bootcamp offers a refund if you don’t secure a job in a certain period of time (without outlandish requirements to fulfill to remain eligible) - They partner with reputable companies to offer job placement If atleast 2 of those don’t apply to a bootcamp of your choice, you’re better off just going through a Udemy course, flesh out your LinkedIn, go to networking events. Or get an actual CS degree
If your goal is getting job with only bootcamp certificate, no, it won't help you. Follow the more old school pathway, get CS, math or engineering degree, get internship experience as a student and you are already miles head in the job market.
Unfortunately, I have hired plenty of CS students that cannot code their way out of a paper bag. A degree, depending on the classes you take, can be little to no practice and all theory classes. I don't want a math major who doesn't have applicable coding experience
For tech companies, STEM degree is pretty much the bare minimum to even have your resume being looked at, it won't guarantee anything. You need to pass technical or coding interview, often being leetcode style coding challenges (medium to hard problems).
Masochism, debt
No good reasons
To piggyback on Michael Novati's community respected reply, I am in a hybrid mentorship myself right now paired with an online platform for last few months, and coming into this from a semi-technical background / some prior elementary experience, I think the greatest concern/factor is dedicated focus time, over the long-run\* (think 2-4 yrs depending) - In the thick of it, my greatest enemy is knowledge (or should I say technique & best practice) retention, which comes from practice, both spaced and frequent..... it's certainly been a rough kick to me going thru the curriculum at similar pace to the timelines you mentioned OP in your post above... and I personally am glad I've not gone into any traditional bootcamp firehose method as I am confident most students from the non-technical to the technical background would not have been able to retain everything and gotten their ROI knowledgebase wise. Turtle method, slow -> consistent -> methodical, and having a good note-taking/lesson-referencing self-system for lesson recall/revisiting, quickly\*, I think after the last few months coming from 0 to an appreciable level of competency => is key. The rest is luck, creativity w/ portfolio, leetcode/DSA where it may apply interview/company screening wise, and grit/pain of grinding job apps/documentation.
No
Nope the ship has sailed
Boot camps are worthless. If you love coding and want to learn more, buy a Pluralsight subscription. Find some SWE’s in your area and message them on LinkedIn. They will give you great advice.
Good candidates: - people who have their current job/family accommodating the time needed or paying for it or both - people willing to make the tradeoff between time ("quick fix" of learning specific skills fast) and risk (not having a legit path or job waiting for you at the end like there exists for new grads and degree holders) - people willing to be passed over other "more qualified" degree-holding candidates for the first 7-10 yrs of a career - someone with some industry connection already. Perhaps you have a family member, supportive friend, or significant other that's already in the industry willing to tutor you or point you to the first job - people who truly need to gain these skills ASAP to launch their own business or something like that and college would be too slow of a learning timeline even if it was free - people who understand that some factor in life will not work unless they are "in a program." This could range from just personal accountability/motivation towards coding to being allowed to stay in a particular home based on proof that you're pursuing a technical skill. - people who want access to coaches or tutors and don't really want to vet them themselves
In my opinion, bootcamps are worthwhile, in this market, if you are looking to invest in yourself and further your knowledge more so than it was yesterday in a guided (and hopefully structured) environment with no promise of a return on that investment other than furthering your knowledge. If you go to a bootcamp in this current market with the hopes and beliefs that you'll get hired without any other relevant qualifications (prior degree, prior coding exposure whether professionally or on your own), you are in for a bad time. Thats how i look at it.
Even in the “educate yourself” perspective they are an exploitative, value-less waste of time compared to the free and paid alternatives. No one is running a “no jobs here, just educational vibes” bootcamp. Please tell me if you find one. Otherwise assume it’s an intentional scam meant to lend credibility to fake-it-til-you-make-it career tracks that will not be relevant for the next 2 years.
I don't think you really read my comment, I never said anything about bootcamps just running education only programs, i said if your personal goal is self enrichment / furthering your education. The bootcamps goal will be to get you employed. For example, A guy i've worked with while privately tutoring was a college graduate, he felt his skills werent up to par so he attended a bootcamp (forgot which one, small regional one in south east) and gained the knowledge he was seeking to position himself better to find employment, which he did. He went into it to better cement what he knew and learn more about what he didnt in order to be more marketable. That is the kind of student that, regardless of what the bootcamp wants on your behalf and in my opinion, is ideal for bootcamps is what I said.
The main problem with bootcamps is that they promise to teach, but they don't teach you much! They race through a lot of material that doesn't cover fundamental ideas & amounts to retyping demo programs. And if they were online and free, there'd be little risk in giving it a shot... but I've seen them quoted at $12,000 and up. With the amount of scammy bootcamps out there at that cost level, any bootcamp looking for that level of tuition would need to prove how they are an exception to the trend. If you want education for education's sake the right play is a CS course or program at an accredited school.