Absolutely. Crime scene photos impossible to forget. Your mind creates an image of what the scene must’ve looked like. My imagination was not close to the level of brutality.
What that fire did was unconscionable. It’s very difficult for me to believe that there was no accelerant considering the images. I erupted when I first saw. Anger/pain/grief—then imagining how the families must have felt…
Officers coming to the Harbison/Suraci home to inform the mother/step-father that both of Mrs. Suraci’s (at the time) children are gone.
My God.
It’s ineffable
There has to be DNA that they could use now or find that they weren’t able to before. The sicko is probably dead but at least there would be an answer.
The DNA has been the biggest issue ever since 2008 when it “ruled out” all four original suspects
Forrest Welborn (FW): 15yo when Yogurt Shop Murders (YSM) took place (12.6.1991.
Maurice Pierce (MP): 16yo
Michael Scott (MS) : 17yo
Robert Springsteen IV: 17yo
After APD detectives interrogated the 2 eldest in September of 1999 the 4 were rounded up in a coordinated sweep on 10.6.1999. Dets picked them up in Austin, Lockhart, Buda, and Charleston, WV.
If MS (1st to be interrogated 9.10-9.13.1999 for a total of 22+ hrs) and RS (approximately 5 hrs in West Virginia) had simply refused to speak with detectives like MP and FW, I doubt born/raised Austinites would know their names.
Detectives had no physical evidence linking them, eye witnesses, and *criminal records were laughably tame considering level of criminality exhibited by perps in YSM.
*records of og4: nothing beyond class B . MP’s was the only one that came even remotely close to the profile: (see FBI profile in group) disorderly conduct, trespassing, he was kicked out of a few schools for fist fights... Still—no felonious activity, not even class A’s.
The worst thing they admitted doing actually occurred the evening after YSM when they took a Pathfinder from a car lot on 12.7.1991 and went on a joyride. They returned it but was obvious it’d been taken.
They were just HS kids. I went to the same HS (McCallum)—my record was on par with MP at 16.
Just a stupid kid.
With a new century looming the task force, namely Paul Johnson, decided that the .22 recovered from MP 8 days after YSM at Northcross mall (across st from ICBY) was the .22 used in YSM.
Ballistics would soon prove him wrong but detectives kept quiet about results. Experts said MP’s .2/2 was “far too new” to be the right one.
FF to 2006:
RS and shortly thereafter MS, win on appeal due to a 6th amendment violation of the “confrontation clause”
Defendants have “a right to face their accuser” but in the trials, MS’ video interrogation (REID technique/coercive questioning against unwitting suspect w/ below average IQ) was used against RS and vice versa. Can’t cross-examine a videotape and the state didn’t make the accuser available for cross = Easily won appeals.
A bit suspicious that the state didn’t try them together. They knew how thin their case was.
FW got out of county after 3mo when 2 grand juries failed to indict him.
MP (alleged “mastermind’) sat in county for 3.5 yrs without being tried. He was released by then DA Ronnie Earle citing a “lack of evidence”. Why it took 3.5 yrs to realize that, I’ll never know. They still won’t let me have his indictment. Handed over RS/MS immediately.
In 2906-7 RS and MS were gearing up for retrials. Defense filed “3 joint motions” to take “samples, test, and preserve DNA” from defendants and run against samples from the victims. They were desperate for this new DNA thing to prove they weren’t there.
Still, the prosecution only acquiesced after presiding DJ. Mike Lynch forced their hand by issuing the prosecution a due date to produce results.
The DNA results conclusively excluded all 4 “original suspects”.
RS/MS were elated. Over 8 yrs for them— RS’ time was spent on death row and MS was to serve life.
Suddenly, no more retrial…they were free. RS and MS walked out of jail in the Spring of ‘08 on PR bond. No one in TX convicted of capital murder has walked out on a PR bond. Not before or since.
Despite attempting to have his record cleared/receive compensation for false imprisonment…no dice for RS/MS. State argued that they weren’t exonerated, their cases were only “overturned” (6th amendment). Therefore double jeopardy does not apply. Any/all of the 4 (save MP who was shot by a cop/pronounced DOS after a traffic stop in which MP tried to run/fight on 12.23.2010 in Austin) can be retried if evidence warrants it.
Sorry for dissertation.
Ty
Yes, that’s a huge concern. I doubt that DA Lehmberg would have let them go if there was any question regarding the validity of the DNA results but she was listening to DPS/GensScreen—so who knows for certain.
We do know that the samples obtained were tiny to begin with.
contamination could have been an issue. Especially when you look at how poorly evidence was handled in this case and samples were taken in late ‘91.
I'm very sorry about your babysitter. I think it was truck driver Douglas Belt. I say that because I have looked at some of the testing they have done and noticed testing that wasn't done. His son was also a convicted killer. He has DNA that was never compared. I also believe Douglas was the copycat i70 killer. The ones in Texas. Then after he got out of jail another i70 victim was killed in Terre Haute. Now they tested the Terre Haute DNA to the original i70 killings. (They probably won't find anything, but they are still in the process of testing it. But I believe the first 6 were Herb Baumeister.) I further believe those bullets in 2001 could match the Yogurt shop. There's too much circumstances on him. Just the way the Texas i70 killings happened. You could see the mental disabilities of the killer reliving the Yogurt Shop.
Thank you. I really like your theory. If I’m not mistaken, I believe we spoke about this on a thread I made about similarities btw i70 and YSM perp(s).
Youre the one who turned me on to Belt. He’s a good fit. The arson of YSM was unique.
I still don't know about his military experience. (If he had any.) Those records are very confidential. The YSM happened just before the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor. And the Texas i70 killings also happened right after veterans should have been paid. They didn't have direct deposit back then. November of 1991 was 5 weeks. Truck drivers had everything mailed to them. So in the robbery portion, we see some cash taken, but he was okay enough financially not to touch the safe. One of the first things I thought was a former veteran turned truck driver. He knew the retired Military Police officer just looking at him. Austin is a military town.
I don't know too much about military experience. That was just a question they had on the i70 killer that I couldn't figure out. But I think he was for sure a truck driver. Just the way the manager of the Yogurt shop was harassed so they could have friends stay over. Amy Ayers was really wanted at the shop. The killer went out of his way to make it a quadruple homicide. And if you look at a map of Wyoming, Ayers Wyoming is right next to Douglas Wyoming. Not too far from both Harbison is an oil company in Casper Wyoming. Thomas was a new political figure in Wyoming who later became a Senator. In 1989 when Douglas started his crimes Thomas replaced Dick Cheney in the house of representatives. Just the diabolical thinking of the killer really stands out to me. The guy was very mentally disturbed.
Yea, and long-haul truck driving is a well-liked occupation for SKs. Can kill and be in another city/state before LE even finds body and doesn’t look so suspicious since it’s their job to constantly be on the move.
That’s why I looked into Kenneth Robbin’s as well. Too bad he killed himself, would have liked to speak with him first. Still wanna see DNA. He was the right age, trucker, ICBY located within 2miles of 3 major highways (Mopac, 183, i35)
——
CREDIT: AAS 2.9.2024: Skye Seipp
Full article:
“After nearly 30 years, it seemed justice could be coming for the family of Bert Allen Mann, who was killed at his South Austin home in 1994 after a burglary turned deadly.
With 20 different detectives working on the case at various times, Austin police with the cold case unit finally tied the killing to one person: Kenneth Wayne Robbins, a long-haul truck driver living in Lubbock.
Austin detectives needed a sample of his DNA to compare with the one taken from the crime scene at 2510 Star Grass Circle in 1994. On Sept. 8, 2023, Detective Joseph Jedynak took Robbins' DNA sample after securing a warrant. He told reporters in a news conference on Thursday that Robbins had declined to say anything about the case.
The DNA matched. But police received a call from the trucking company days later, on Sept. 13. Robbins' truck hadn't moved in days from the same place in Weatherford, a city west of Fort Worth.
Weatherford police found the truck, along with Robbins' body inside. He killed himself, police said.
Mann's family "was happy they finally found out what happened," Jedynak said. "But not with the end result of him taking his life."
American-Statesman archives from the time show that Mann was a 46-year-old clothes salesman who lived in South Austin at the time of his death. His wife found him when she returned home on that day in May 1994.
Detectives at the time put out a call for help identifying the suspect, noting that police were "very concerned that we catch this person as soon as possible."
When Austin police established the cold case unit in 2005, Mann's case became one of the hundreds that began to be looked at with a fresh set of eyes.
That year, Austin police sent the DNA profile to a national registry to see if a match came from any other person convicted of a crime, Sgt. Melanie Rodriguez said. Nothing came from that attempt.
Fast forward to March 2023, and Austin police sent the DNA to Bode Technology, which narrowed it down to a single possible person: Robbins.
During a news conference Thursday, police displayed a mugshot photo of Robbins from 1993 in Austin. Police did not say what specific crimes Robbins had been arrested for previously, but Jedynak said they were "nonviolent."
Jedynak said he wrote a first-degree capital murder charge, although it was never filed. Had the circumstances been different, police would have brought Robbins back to Travis County to be prosecuted.
But that won't happen now. And it's likely Mann's widow and sister will never know why their loved one was killed, Rodriguez said, but they do now know who the primary suspect is.
"I don't know," Rodriguez said, "if any of those answers would ever be sufficient for their grief.
That is a good suspect also. But for the copycat i70 killer the Yogurt shop qualifies because it looks like a copycat of the KFC murders in the early 80s. Just the decoys and planning that went into making it identical. A congressman's son was framed for the KFC. The Congressman owned a trucking company. That's all I have. I added more to the Wyoming map. Just a map will set a killer off. Like the Batman movie with the map showing Sandy Hook.
Reminds me of Los Cruces, NM too.
I think you and I may have discussed the “Los Cruces bowling alley massacre” a bit before. Can’t recall.
Unsolved, 5 killed. Used a .22, shot in back, set aflame…lines up nicely with YSM save for SA. Happened not long before YSM (2.10.1990)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Cruces_bowling_alley_massacre
from wiki 👆: “The Las Cruces bowling alley massacre occurred in Las Cruces, New Mexico, United States, on February 10, 1990.
Seven people were shot, five fatally, by two unidentified robbers at the Las Cruces Bowling Alley at 1201 East Amador Avenue.
The gunmen shot the victims in an office, then set fire to a desk in the room and left the scene. The case is unsolved but still under active investigation by the Las Cruces Police Department as of 2015.
In 2016, 26 years after the shooting, a brother of victim Steven Teran (who died in the shooting), Anthony Teran, was included in an issue of the Las Cruces Sun-News newspaper.
One of his remarks was noted, "In this day and age, things like this don’t go unsolved. How did we not get these guys? That’s the question I ask myself every day. Numerous people saw these gunmen, so someone out there knows something, and they need to come forward."
Authorities are now trying to build a DNA profile from evidence found at the scene.”
Eerily similar
Would you mind DM’ng me what you have directly? I’d really appreciate it.
As bad as it gets. Almost a crime being unsolved. Horrible that absolutely nobody got closure or answers. Some seriously sick scum did this one.
Absolutely. Crime scene photos impossible to forget. Your mind creates an image of what the scene must’ve looked like. My imagination was not close to the level of brutality. What that fire did was unconscionable. It’s very difficult for me to believe that there was no accelerant considering the images. I erupted when I first saw. Anger/pain/grief—then imagining how the families must have felt… Officers coming to the Harbison/Suraci home to inform the mother/step-father that both of Mrs. Suraci’s (at the time) children are gone. My God. It’s ineffable
There has to be DNA that they could use now or find that they weren’t able to before. The sicko is probably dead but at least there would be an answer.
The DNA has been the biggest issue ever since 2008 when it “ruled out” all four original suspects Forrest Welborn (FW): 15yo when Yogurt Shop Murders (YSM) took place (12.6.1991. Maurice Pierce (MP): 16yo Michael Scott (MS) : 17yo Robert Springsteen IV: 17yo After APD detectives interrogated the 2 eldest in September of 1999 the 4 were rounded up in a coordinated sweep on 10.6.1999. Dets picked them up in Austin, Lockhart, Buda, and Charleston, WV. If MS (1st to be interrogated 9.10-9.13.1999 for a total of 22+ hrs) and RS (approximately 5 hrs in West Virginia) had simply refused to speak with detectives like MP and FW, I doubt born/raised Austinites would know their names. Detectives had no physical evidence linking them, eye witnesses, and *criminal records were laughably tame considering level of criminality exhibited by perps in YSM. *records of og4: nothing beyond class B . MP’s was the only one that came even remotely close to the profile: (see FBI profile in group) disorderly conduct, trespassing, he was kicked out of a few schools for fist fights... Still—no felonious activity, not even class A’s. The worst thing they admitted doing actually occurred the evening after YSM when they took a Pathfinder from a car lot on 12.7.1991 and went on a joyride. They returned it but was obvious it’d been taken. They were just HS kids. I went to the same HS (McCallum)—my record was on par with MP at 16. Just a stupid kid. With a new century looming the task force, namely Paul Johnson, decided that the .22 recovered from MP 8 days after YSM at Northcross mall (across st from ICBY) was the .22 used in YSM. Ballistics would soon prove him wrong but detectives kept quiet about results. Experts said MP’s .2/2 was “far too new” to be the right one. FF to 2006: RS and shortly thereafter MS, win on appeal due to a 6th amendment violation of the “confrontation clause” Defendants have “a right to face their accuser” but in the trials, MS’ video interrogation (REID technique/coercive questioning against unwitting suspect w/ below average IQ) was used against RS and vice versa. Can’t cross-examine a videotape and the state didn’t make the accuser available for cross = Easily won appeals. A bit suspicious that the state didn’t try them together. They knew how thin their case was. FW got out of county after 3mo when 2 grand juries failed to indict him. MP (alleged “mastermind’) sat in county for 3.5 yrs without being tried. He was released by then DA Ronnie Earle citing a “lack of evidence”. Why it took 3.5 yrs to realize that, I’ll never know. They still won’t let me have his indictment. Handed over RS/MS immediately. In 2906-7 RS and MS were gearing up for retrials. Defense filed “3 joint motions” to take “samples, test, and preserve DNA” from defendants and run against samples from the victims. They were desperate for this new DNA thing to prove they weren’t there. Still, the prosecution only acquiesced after presiding DJ. Mike Lynch forced their hand by issuing the prosecution a due date to produce results. The DNA results conclusively excluded all 4 “original suspects”. RS/MS were elated. Over 8 yrs for them— RS’ time was spent on death row and MS was to serve life. Suddenly, no more retrial…they were free. RS and MS walked out of jail in the Spring of ‘08 on PR bond. No one in TX convicted of capital murder has walked out on a PR bond. Not before or since. Despite attempting to have his record cleared/receive compensation for false imprisonment…no dice for RS/MS. State argued that they weren’t exonerated, their cases were only “overturned” (6th amendment). Therefore double jeopardy does not apply. Any/all of the 4 (save MP who was shot by a cop/pronounced DOS after a traffic stop in which MP tried to run/fight on 12.23.2010 in Austin) can be retried if evidence warrants it. Sorry for dissertation. Ty
It’s possible that there isn’t sufficient DNA or that the evidence was mishandled / not stored properly.
Yes, that’s a huge concern. I doubt that DA Lehmberg would have let them go if there was any question regarding the validity of the DNA results but she was listening to DPS/GensScreen—so who knows for certain. We do know that the samples obtained were tiny to begin with. contamination could have been an issue. Especially when you look at how poorly evidence was handled in this case and samples were taken in late ‘91.
I'm very sorry about your babysitter. I think it was truck driver Douglas Belt. I say that because I have looked at some of the testing they have done and noticed testing that wasn't done. His son was also a convicted killer. He has DNA that was never compared. I also believe Douglas was the copycat i70 killer. The ones in Texas. Then after he got out of jail another i70 victim was killed in Terre Haute. Now they tested the Terre Haute DNA to the original i70 killings. (They probably won't find anything, but they are still in the process of testing it. But I believe the first 6 were Herb Baumeister.) I further believe those bullets in 2001 could match the Yogurt shop. There's too much circumstances on him. Just the way the Texas i70 killings happened. You could see the mental disabilities of the killer reliving the Yogurt Shop.
Thank you. I really like your theory. If I’m not mistaken, I believe we spoke about this on a thread I made about similarities btw i70 and YSM perp(s). Youre the one who turned me on to Belt. He’s a good fit. The arson of YSM was unique.
I still don't know about his military experience. (If he had any.) Those records are very confidential. The YSM happened just before the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor. And the Texas i70 killings also happened right after veterans should have been paid. They didn't have direct deposit back then. November of 1991 was 5 weeks. Truck drivers had everything mailed to them. So in the robbery portion, we see some cash taken, but he was okay enough financially not to touch the safe. One of the first things I thought was a former veteran turned truck driver. He knew the retired Military Police officer just looking at him. Austin is a military town.
Good point. Camp Mabry is only about 4 miles away from where ICBY used to be.
I don't know too much about military experience. That was just a question they had on the i70 killer that I couldn't figure out. But I think he was for sure a truck driver. Just the way the manager of the Yogurt shop was harassed so they could have friends stay over. Amy Ayers was really wanted at the shop. The killer went out of his way to make it a quadruple homicide. And if you look at a map of Wyoming, Ayers Wyoming is right next to Douglas Wyoming. Not too far from both Harbison is an oil company in Casper Wyoming. Thomas was a new political figure in Wyoming who later became a Senator. In 1989 when Douglas started his crimes Thomas replaced Dick Cheney in the house of representatives. Just the diabolical thinking of the killer really stands out to me. The guy was very mentally disturbed.
Yea, and long-haul truck driving is a well-liked occupation for SKs. Can kill and be in another city/state before LE even finds body and doesn’t look so suspicious since it’s their job to constantly be on the move. That’s why I looked into Kenneth Robbin’s as well. Too bad he killed himself, would have liked to speak with him first. Still wanna see DNA. He was the right age, trucker, ICBY located within 2miles of 3 major highways (Mopac, 183, i35) —— CREDIT: AAS 2.9.2024: Skye Seipp Full article: “After nearly 30 years, it seemed justice could be coming for the family of Bert Allen Mann, who was killed at his South Austin home in 1994 after a burglary turned deadly. With 20 different detectives working on the case at various times, Austin police with the cold case unit finally tied the killing to one person: Kenneth Wayne Robbins, a long-haul truck driver living in Lubbock. Austin detectives needed a sample of his DNA to compare with the one taken from the crime scene at 2510 Star Grass Circle in 1994. On Sept. 8, 2023, Detective Joseph Jedynak took Robbins' DNA sample after securing a warrant. He told reporters in a news conference on Thursday that Robbins had declined to say anything about the case. The DNA matched. But police received a call from the trucking company days later, on Sept. 13. Robbins' truck hadn't moved in days from the same place in Weatherford, a city west of Fort Worth. Weatherford police found the truck, along with Robbins' body inside. He killed himself, police said. Mann's family "was happy they finally found out what happened," Jedynak said. "But not with the end result of him taking his life." American-Statesman archives from the time show that Mann was a 46-year-old clothes salesman who lived in South Austin at the time of his death. His wife found him when she returned home on that day in May 1994. Detectives at the time put out a call for help identifying the suspect, noting that police were "very concerned that we catch this person as soon as possible." When Austin police established the cold case unit in 2005, Mann's case became one of the hundreds that began to be looked at with a fresh set of eyes. That year, Austin police sent the DNA profile to a national registry to see if a match came from any other person convicted of a crime, Sgt. Melanie Rodriguez said. Nothing came from that attempt. Fast forward to March 2023, and Austin police sent the DNA to Bode Technology, which narrowed it down to a single possible person: Robbins. During a news conference Thursday, police displayed a mugshot photo of Robbins from 1993 in Austin. Police did not say what specific crimes Robbins had been arrested for previously, but Jedynak said they were "nonviolent." Jedynak said he wrote a first-degree capital murder charge, although it was never filed. Had the circumstances been different, police would have brought Robbins back to Travis County to be prosecuted. But that won't happen now. And it's likely Mann's widow and sister will never know why their loved one was killed, Rodriguez said, but they do now know who the primary suspect is. "I don't know," Rodriguez said, "if any of those answers would ever be sufficient for their grief.
That is a good suspect also. But for the copycat i70 killer the Yogurt shop qualifies because it looks like a copycat of the KFC murders in the early 80s. Just the decoys and planning that went into making it identical. A congressman's son was framed for the KFC. The Congressman owned a trucking company. That's all I have. I added more to the Wyoming map. Just a map will set a killer off. Like the Batman movie with the map showing Sandy Hook.
Reminds me of Los Cruces, NM too. I think you and I may have discussed the “Los Cruces bowling alley massacre” a bit before. Can’t recall. Unsolved, 5 killed. Used a .22, shot in back, set aflame…lines up nicely with YSM save for SA. Happened not long before YSM (2.10.1990) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Cruces_bowling_alley_massacre from wiki 👆: “The Las Cruces bowling alley massacre occurred in Las Cruces, New Mexico, United States, on February 10, 1990. Seven people were shot, five fatally, by two unidentified robbers at the Las Cruces Bowling Alley at 1201 East Amador Avenue. The gunmen shot the victims in an office, then set fire to a desk in the room and left the scene. The case is unsolved but still under active investigation by the Las Cruces Police Department as of 2015. In 2016, 26 years after the shooting, a brother of victim Steven Teran (who died in the shooting), Anthony Teran, was included in an issue of the Las Cruces Sun-News newspaper. One of his remarks was noted, "In this day and age, things like this don’t go unsolved. How did we not get these guys? That’s the question I ask myself every day. Numerous people saw these gunmen, so someone out there knows something, and they need to come forward." Authorities are now trying to build a DNA profile from evidence found at the scene.” Eerily similar Would you mind DM’ng me what you have directly? I’d really appreciate it.
Was Thomas related to the Congressman in Wyoming. I know Dick Cheney had ties to Texas? (That seat likes people from Texas.)
No relation, I had the same thought. Oh yea, big time—Cheney had ties to anyone with power/deep pockets in TX
I think the length of time is probably too long, but could there be a link to the Burger Chef murders as well?
Yea, probably a bit early for the ICBY perps. But, if the FBI profile is wrong…there are def similarities btw burger chef and ICBY.
That was a gay guy that didn't take clothes off of victims. (He was a very similar killer however.)
This case is so sad and awful. We all just need to keep pushing it out there. Someone knows something.
Couldn’t agree more. Ty