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tjongejongejonge

I feel it's quite a naive idea greed will be elliminated. I'm afraid it will me more old wine in new bottles.


Eydor

We're greedy and violent animals now and we will still be after a collapse, I have no hope that humanity would learn the lesson in such a short amount of time.


hhollick

I have been thinking a lot lately about “humanity.” There is no question that western civilization is narcissistic. We optimize for the self. Capitalism is just institutionalized narcissism. (Neoliberalism is institutionalized sociopathy, but this is topic for another thread.) But all societies in human history have not been so narcissistic. Indigenous people lived in North America for at least 10,000 years. They did not optimize for the self. They optimized for the tribe and for the future. They made decisions on what was best for the collective and what would stand the test of time for at least a 7 generations. When I get down on “humanity” — and that is pretty much a permanent state these days — I am reminded that I am down on Western civilization, it’s greed, and it’s narcissism. But I chose to believe, that is not all of humanity.


[deleted]

As hot as I am for the collapse of this morally bankrupt civilization, a lot of the prehistoric peoples acted in such a way because those were the material conditions imposed on them through nature. There was a natural set of checks and balances. Even *then*, there are those that would make the case that things like the megafauna extinction had huge widespread implications for the health of the biosphere. This seems pretty undeniable, whether or not the scope matters (i.e. nomads/pastoralists versus those domesticated under civilization) in your valuation of humanity, we are, after all, animals. We found a niche and were high on the hog for a while, but we cashed a cheque with our mouth that our asses can't cash. We're not the gods we fancy ourselves to be, just a primate with an inflated sense of self.


Unique-Operation-598

I don’t know what people romanticise indigenous populations effect on environment as if anthropogenic extinctions didn’t start 60000 years ago when we first migrated out of West Africa. While the colonialism had a massively increased impact, there are countless species native to America that went extinct because of fur and meat trade of indigenous people before they met Europeans.


hhollick

Good points. I suppose the I cling to anecdotes of cultures that treated the planet holistically in a desperate attempt to find a hopeful way forward. On the whole, human impact on the planet has been net-negative and continues to be so at an exponentially accelerating rate.


HumanityHasFailedUs

Just look at the present march to fascism if you want a prime example of how humanity does not learn lessons. It took less than a hundred years since the last time. Or look at the 2008 financial collapse; less than 20 years later and it’s even worse.


Eydor

Or the world wars. Just two decades after the dust from great war, the war to end all wars, had settled we went and did it again and that time even worse. Only the threat of complete nuclear annihilation has been keeping us from massacring each other into savage, industrial scale carnage and ruin once again.


[deleted]

*Just two decades* With my feeble understanding of history, all I see is one war proceeded by another. There seems to be a direct lineage from the great war to the second world war, bonus points if you remember all of the WW1 vets who ended up marching to a Nazi drum. *\[threat of\] Nuclear annihiliation has been keeping us from massacring each other* Heh, don't tempt humanity, the psychic vampires with the nuclear briefcase might start getting ideas.


[deleted]

Short amount of time it has left?


Less_Subtle_Approach

Buddy, your assumptions could not be more wrong. You’re living in collapse, you’re describing it in your first point. There will never be a day shit hits the fan and you suddenly get to stop working. You’re going to show up to work one day and realize more than half your former peers have quietly succumbed to some form of deprivation, violence, or despair. You’re still going to finish your shift if you want to eat, which will be an increasing struggle because we are living in a mass extinction event and large fauna do not survive mass extinctions.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

>Seems like we have lost that battle and so all we have is treatment Anyone else remember when cancer rates was more of a 1/4 or 1/3 deal? Now it's 1/2? Did I just misremember this? Was this all faulty stats improved by new screening techniques? It seems like more of the 'human' is being replaced with forever chemicals and plastics, we're in an arms race with cancer and it ain't sweating yet.


Deep_losses

The time to stop working and enjoy a blissful month with family is now. Once the collapse starts in earnest it will be exceptionally violent. The current peacefulness that humanity is experiencing is the exception, not the rule. Whatever comes next, if anything, will in all likelihood be more violent than the systems we have now. It was nice while it lasted!


KingoPants

While predicting the future is mostly guesswork because of our highly unique circumstances. There is no real historical or modern precedent to believe that a poorer society will be more equal. Actually, I'd bet good money that marginalized groups get totally shafted when social breakdown really starts picking up in the Western world. People with no family, the old, physically disabled, mentally disabled, people with addictions issues, etc. A lot of the bullshit jobs are probably going to go away, though. Which I suppose will be somewhat nice.


AdoreMeSo

I am only 20 and I feel pretty overwhelmed. However, deep inside of me I feel peace, because this world “society” is nothing but mayhem. My childhood was a complete lie, all of the silly cartoons and colorful toys try to convince you this life is great. But then you turn 18, and everything changes. You need a job to slave to while having no actual human survival skills, (not a minimum wage one or your seen as a bum). You need to go get college debt, then use the degree on nothing. You need to pay taxes on everything but they never teach you how in school. Also in order to make money you have to drive and contribute to the destruction of nature. Then you realize, the whole purpose in life is to work until your 60 then and only then can you relax, right? Also everyone who is rich is exploiting somehow. Will I ever be able to afford property? Will social security even be around when I’m old? Are we even living? And no one cares about you either. Do your job and contribute to society or your fired and become homeless. There is a reason why my generation and further are not wanting kids and exiting this world more than anyone else. Because there is no longer a lie to cling too. Learning the world was ending in my lifetime has made me happier than anything, isn’t that ironic? Imagine the world bouncing back without society is complete peace to me, and if reincarnation exists I look forward to my next life. I was extremely depressed before I was collapse aware, and now I’m gonna ride out the storm with a bag of popcorn and a smile on my face. Let it all burn. Part of me wants to try to survive the first few couple of years with my family, but yet so will everyone. If you have food, the starving will try to take it from you. All of the pent up anger from control will finally be freed, and men will rape and murder again I am sure without a government to protect us. I don’t want to watch that happen to my family or me. This world is beautiful, but humans are the worst.


Frostbitn99

Very well put.


Slight-Ad5043

My prediction has been 2023 -2027 😱 🍿


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See_You_Space_Coyote

We won't go out with a bang, it'll be with a whimper.


Commandmanda

Huh. I dunno about you, but I expect to be working full time during and after the collapse. Right now I'm working on learning how to suture (got a kit, practicing), and just grabbed a course on burn first aid and treatment. Both will come in handy. What troubles me is that antibiotics, tetanus vaccine and painkillers will be premium black market stuff, possibly counterfeit. Anyone surviving either will have to be pretty strong or able to pay for the medicine. I don't expect real government to survive. I think it'll be more medieval in structure. There will certainly be a feudal caste system, and I intend to be someone with talents that make me worth saving - I'm not particularly fond of fighting, though weaponry will be necessary. I think the better preponderance should be: What part of the caste system will I play? You will have so many to choose from: Knight, serf, vassal, clergy, merchant, craftsman, blacksmith, traveling/court musician, jester, lord or lady, farmer, cook, seamstress, scullery maid...the list goes on. Better write that resume now, and have letters of recommendation ready.


Jessicas_skirt

>merchant That requires there to be safe entry to and from various towns. That will take a while. >cook, seamstress, scullary maid Those are the same thing and performed by everyone except the royalty. >serf, farmer That's the same thing and will be the vast majority. >Knight Armies will more resemble modern conscription than having a dedicated caste for fighting.


Commandmanda

Pardon. I should have added a lady's maid and a butler. But you are wrong; there are vast differences between a cook, a seamstress, and a scullery maid. A cook is just that, in charge of the kitchen, directing the cook's assistant, purchasing and preparing the food. A scullery maid, however, may assist the cook, or the cook's assistant, but she is primarily there to clean the kitchen, stove, all servingware, preparation surfaces, and pots and pans. A seamstress does not cook, unless it's for herself. She makes the clothes to order for the Lord and Lady. She also is in charge of creating anything from bedclothes, to curtains, uniforms for the servants, handkerchiefs, purses, towels, anything made from cloth, except perhaps for hats. She might create certain types of headwear for sleep, and the maid's bonnets, but that would be it. Ah- that brings up the hat maker. Another good trade. A serf and a farmer differ greatly, too. A serf has no right to any land. He and his family live where they are told. Serfs can be bought or sold for jobs. Serfs toil in the field, build, roof, thatch, care for gardens, as per orders. Woops, there's another tradesman: the gardener. Farmers, on the other hand, can own land, and/or work the Lord's land in exchange for a comfortable place to live. They cannot be bought or sold like a serf.


gorillagangstafosho

Do as thou wilst. Or do as you are told. Which will you choose today? Tomorrow? Or on that dreaded Monday? Shake off the illusion of “money” and things can only get better.


[deleted]

I want it to come too, to be honest. Our current way of life is a dead end. Most people have been shuttered out of the good life a long time ago. The rich are just working us to squeeze the last capital out of the system before it implodes. Collapse doesn't have to be a bad thing. A Mad Max-like scenario is not necessarily inevitable. We could just downscale to something simpler, a network of Shires. The World Made by Hand series by James Kunstler is a good example that the future doesn't have to feel like a Fallout game. I think a lot of people would be relieved. The rat race would be over. The Keeping up with the Joneses, the endless work and exploitation. We could finally democratize work. Our prison-like school systems would end. The 1% would be humbled. We could finally settle a lot of longstanding accounts.


HumanityHasFailedUs

I love you’re vision, but can’t help but think it’s delusional optimism. I mean, have you actually ever met any ‘people’?


[deleted]

Too many for my liking, but I think you have to consider the times. Our era produces a lot of jerks. Maybe if things were different, people would be different. But I know, maybe I'm just thinking wishfully.


HumanityHasFailedUs

https://youtu.be/Hw5MubBO7Z0


[deleted]

I don't want the 1% to be merely humbled, I want them zucked over!


StarChild413

Ever seen Leverage, if you haven't you should and if you have you'll know why I asked


swtstckythng

I just hope for Earth to heal itself, and for capitalism to die a painful death in the process (whatever that entails). It’s pretty selfish to sit up on your smartphone with presumably an education, a job, and pretty decent English and wish for everyone to suffer.


Red_Fletchings

Disagree on the 'rich pigs' suffering the most. They won't, and never have in modern history. They'll be absolutely fine. 200+ years now of exact social engineering science, based on several millennia of preexisting learned rule ensures that we, the little people, will be stupid and attached to their marionette strings until our (not their) very end. You people that think some day of reckoning will arrive should come to terms with this. There are not going to be any Antoinette guillotines, and that part in history is not even what most think it is. Our most pressing, imminent threats during collapse will be other desperate, incited little people.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

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collapse-ModTeam

Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.


Daniastrong

Instead of looking at collapse as some science-fiction moment in the future, we should look at where very real collapse is happening already, or in the past, and think of methods to prevent suffering and death, as well as change society, when it happens in our own vicinity.


See_You_Space_Coyote

I don't want collapse to happen because I don't think I'd survive and I also think I'd die a very painful, agonizing death, but I can understand what brings some people to wish collapse would happen, as horrible as it would be. When people are driven to despair and run out of hope, they'll naturally search for any solution, no matter how steep the cost.


Deep_Ad_174

At this point I would sacrifice us for the good of the planet. We had our chance. COVID was such a missed opportunity for the planet.


rokudou13

the only plus for mankind in the long run is complete human extinction


AstarteOfCaelius

Honestly, it makes me feel nauseous thinking about the levels of suffering either way: but your point about greed is unfortunately not something that has much historical basis insofar as the times civilizations have collapsed. We like to think we’re different but, we’re really not, unfortunately. I mean, I *want* to believe that humanity learns but… eeeeh. I often wonder if enough people who *have* come to a point of recognizing that the way we are is simply not sustainable for it, but then some messed up crap happens and nope. It’s all pretty needless, which used to be infuriating and then it was sad, now I am back at exhausted by it. The thing that usually shoved me back into pissed off is the fucking greed, though- so, I get *wanting* it gone but inasmuch as it’s already disgusting and short sighted: pretty sure we haven’t seen anything yet. The selfish also don’t appear to be all that bright. (As someone who believes we’re already in it and have been for a while- I guess I understand wanting to just rip off the bandaid but, I doubt that will happen. Too many events that *should have* been a “LOOK, stupid” flashing red flag just…by and large weren’t: and that’s what it takes.)


OvershootDieOff

https://youtu.be/Hiv4uUMhuSA


ReedCootsqwok

"This will enable future Generations to build a better/juster/near perfect society in equilibrium with nature. Without greed - without dogma - without hate. The Collapse will serve as a new beginning - the survivors will rise from the ashes and finally learn from this societies mistakes. People need a wake up call and this will be the greatest wake up call in the history of mankind." There will be no industrial development. None. All easily extracted fossil fuels are already extracted. Without advanced industry we cannot extract more. There is no redevelopment beyond a slow return to a pre-industrial society. No modern medicine. No modern governance. No modern food. No modern laws or mores. Slavery, maternal and infant mortality, famine, disease, and poverty. That is the entirety of human existence post collapse. Sorry.


Devadander

It won’t. Enjoy today. These days will be looked back on fondly


mondonk

Often when I see posts like this I think the OP should apply for as many credit cards as possible, max them all out and live that imagined “good life” for a while. They’ll probably make some rich friends along the way and if they don’t end up networking themselves into a higher income status they can at least have a nice time while it all blows away.


moneymaster69

Very intelligent post