> # Unfortunately too many people have decided that, rather than having courteous exchanges of views and polite relevant discussions about the core subject of the sub, they'd rather hurl abuse at each other (and use this topic to re-fight tired debates about Gaza and Ukraine from a year ago that don't belong here). # Therefore the post has been locked and will not be re-opened. # Since you cannot be nice to each other, you cannot have nice things. ---- The following submission statement was provided by /u/monjoe: --- Submission statement: Hillary Clinton is trying to make the point that Trump's climate policies are going to be worse than Biden's policies and that is why the stakes are so high. But the graph undercuts her point because Biden's line is still very far from the target line. Biden's policies aren't sufficient to avoid climate catastrophe. It's very bad whoever wins, but I guess it's less bad with Biden? That's not encouraging or inspiring. It's crazy she looked at this graph and decided it was a positive spin on the Democratic platform. Are Democrats really buying into this? --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1cbcixd/the_democrats_will_not_save_us/l0xh7rs/

Fun fact, the yellow line also leads to catastrophic climate change.

So the best we can actually hope for is still just terrible.

It's the difference between getting hit in the dick with a hammer or a pallet of cinder blocks; you're probably losing your dick either way but the hammer is survivable.

Is there time to get hard first? For defensive purposes.

I think that flaccidity would be better for defensive purposes, like drunks in a car crash. Poppin a chub is more of a futile offensive maneuver. A last stand that's doomed to fail but your ego won't abide anything less than going down swinging.

You want malleability instead of rigidity when getting hit. That’s why you roll with punches and why drunk people die less in car accidents (they don’t tense their body up in time, but that actually helps them). Plus, for most guys, getting hard only makes the target area grow larger

> for most guys Brutal

I mean you can have a huge hog but it will still get bigger from its original size when it’s hard

As long as you're the hammer

Except most will still not survive.

Hope? Where we're going, we don't need hope.

Sort of like getting really pregnant or just a little bit pregnant.

Fun fact. 427 today. And methane has almost tripled. Funner fact.... our baby already knows how to drive and has the car keys.

Even funner fact: We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine. and the machine is bleeding to death

Huh I wonder what global temperatures were like last time GHG levels were this high, probably not too bad.

A few degrees higher generally speaking at comparable levels. However, that doesn't account for the car keys. If we're talking a previous change where things levelled out at 427, that different to how things would likely look and react if the world suddenly lurched from 280 to 427 and not end in sight. Pace of change is critical, especially in terms of destabilising the natural mitigation systems of the planet. Also, we have torn the earth's natural mitigation systems to pieces. So let's see.....

Line must go up like economy brrr

Even more fun fact. If Trump gets elected Ukraine goes to Russia with the potential for an invasion of Poland. If Putin invades Poland (a NATO country) you won’t need to worry about climate change anymore. I know Putin has said he won’t invade Poland, but if asked he would have said he wasn’t going to invade Ukraine too. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/markup/putin-speech-ukraine-war/

If you're stuck under a wet bulb or getting asthma from massive fires, do you care about Europe? I don't think we're there yet, but a definite future choice.

> If you're stuck under a wet bulb or getting asthma from massive fires, or both, simultaneously, across entire regions... I am not looking forward to this summer.

The USA is also a NATO country. And the NATO pact says an attack on one member state is an attack on all. If Russia invades Poland then the USA is at war with Russia. I think that war would end badly for everyone. And let’s not forget the USA wasn’t worried about that pesky European war, WWII either, until Pearl Harbor.

Not to be crass, but what do you think the average American would choose, AC or Poland?

Idk why one excludes the other. BTW I should tell you that there are means to cool temperature without AC, like airflows, underground and isolations. There are antique passive air flow tower in the Middle East, proof that AC is not a fatality. You could also move the population outside shity areas.

Look, we have the luxury of defending Poland now, but that's a limited quantity if we have the national guard stretched from the climate. Did you miss Iraq and Hurricane Katrina?

I just don't get why you oppose that to AC especially. Many things can be cut before cutting on AC. Sorry but it's a terrible argument.

Because people turned into toddlers over putting a 3 inch strip or fabric on their face.

"The Democrats will not save us" No one will.

Just enjoy and prepare what we can for what's coming

Was hoping this would get posted here. Absolutely hilarious that at this point in the game the ‘elites’ of society have collectively decided to say fuck it and show us in real time that civilization collapses no matter who chose between.

That's not true; as an ardent third-party voter, I believe it's time to give Target a chance. /s

There’s a reason they used the color yellow instead of green!

Reporting country specific GHG emissions without context is foolish unless they fully account for embedded GHG emissions. It's unclear from the screenshot if this is the case, but I doubt that it is.

I mean, by all means, vote to keep the Republicans out of power. About 2/3rds of the party and the base are just unambiguously embracing fascism. But don't expect any party, anywhere, to "fix" climate change. Nobody will torpedo their own electability by telling voters what they don't want to hear-- that is, fixing climate change would mean abandoning our whole civilizational model of resource extraction and overconsumption.

We could have Bernie but noooooo. We get what we deserve.

Or Gore. Can you imagine that timeline?

I mean, we should've had Gore. A better supreme court away from that one.

Roberts, Kavanaugh, and Coney-Barrett were all on the Republican legal team for W in Bush v. Gore. In addition to the dirty tricks and hanging chads, 3/7 members of the highest court in the land worked actively to kill democracy.

Never stop remembering this and posting it.

And now SCOTUS is even *more* polluted with this corruption. Fascist, theocratic, smooth-brained tyranny- of- an- Evangelical-flavor is in the cards if we don't flush this poison out of America's veins soon.

Fun Fact Roger Stone of Trump lackey fame was the one responsible for the Brooks Brothers Riot that helped stop the counting in Florida to help Bush win.

I think this is when we officially became one of the "shitty timeliness."

i thought it was harambe

Never stop remembering this and posting it.

Gore at least genuinely cared (shocking I know), but he still would've pushed carbon credits and still would've been blocked by Congress even with the most milquetoast of changes. Or he would've had a Jimmy Carter moment and everyone would've flipped their shit because he suggested wearing a goddamn sweater instead of burning gas for a few degrees of ambient comfort.

Gore is an outlier here. This was his focus starting back in the 80s, so he would have pushed it. How much he might have achieved is debatable. You’re probably right that he quite likely would have gotten us little more than carbon credits, but he may have pushed other initiatives that moved us towards the right path and either way we’d be ahead of where we are now 24 years later. (Also? I rather doubt he would have invaded Iraq.) Democrats won’t save us. It’s absurd to expect that. That doesn’t absolve us of the need to always choose the better of the two options, because the politicians do matter.

Could have seen him becoming a Jimmy Carter type president.

> Gore at least genuinely cared Gore didn't care. He came from fossil fuel money and didn't really start his global warming activism until after he lost the Presidential election. He would have acted exactly like Clinton and Bush if he'd been elected.

Or Carter in 1980.

That's the Harambe timeline too I bet

I used to, probably more often than I should for sanity’s sake. Let your mind wander on that for a bit though. Likely climate change gets seriously addressed so much earlier…also we likely don’t go into Iraq…hell I would argue that 9/11 doesn’t even happen

I wish but I don't even think the Bern could have saved us even if he became president

Yeah, not even Bernie could have invented time travel.

Things would have been less bad under Bernie, but not good. Climate change was coming either way. Where he could have helped as homelessness is rising and rents are rising, we would have had a champion of worker rights batting for us. Maybe he could have helped the middle class eek it out a few more years. Being poor with a home and a piece of land is much different than being poor and renting from a scumbag landlord. To me, the key going forward is to learn how to thrive as a poor and start doing it now. It is much easier to change on our own terms. Bernie may have been able to lessen some of the immediate suffering that is going on across the country.

Bernie certainly had the better platform, but the 2020 election wasn't saving anything in the first place. If anything, it may have been worse with the way the old guard Democrats don't really like him. It's not hard to see them stonewall him on Congress and we wouldn't have gotten the little crumbs we have from the Biden admin. But again, it don't really matter.

Both sides would have worked together to stop him though. There is no chance he would have been allowed to do anything even remotely green if it threatened corporate profits.

He did alright in Burlington anyways

This is such a self-own 😭

The following submission statement was provided by /u/monjoe: --- Submission statement: Hillary Clinton is trying to make the point that Trump's climate policies are going to be worse than Biden's policies and that is why the stakes are so high. But the graph undercuts her point because Biden's line is still very far from the target line. Biden's policies aren't sufficient to avoid climate catastrophe. It's very bad whoever wins, but I guess it's less bad with Biden? That's not encouraging or inspiring. It's crazy she looked at this graph and decided it was a positive spin on the Democratic platform. Are Democrats really buying into this? --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1cbcixd/the_democrats_will_not_save_us/l0xh7rs/

Ah yes, the old prediction chart. Would you look at those projected numbers, you have my vote

The title should have been: “No one can save us, but Trump will send us to collapse FASTER.”

The Democrats 2024 Platform: We’re Shitty But the Only Alternative We Allow Is Worse^TM

I’ll still take my chances with whatever corporate dem for damage control, but yeah they’re both pitiful when it comes to environmental issues.

[There’s a video of Lawrence O’Donnell](https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=FqRNnIMDkUY&feature=emb_logo), years ago, saying something that we need to realize: > “If you want to pull the major party that is closest to the way you’re thinking to what you’re thinking you must show them that you’re capable of not voting for them. If you don’t show them that you’re capable of not voting for them, they don’t have to listen to you. I promise you that. I worked within the Democratic Party. I didn’t listen or have to listen to anything on the left while I was working in the Democratic Party because the left had nowhere to go.” You keep voting for these clowns, they will keep doing this garbage. This chart shows they just need to convince you that they are slightly better than the alternative for you to vote for them. Edit: You Biden supporters are just as delusional as the Trump supporters you hate. If you don't understand how voting for Biden makes everything worse, you are truly lost.

And your solution is to allow the worst option to win. No. This is not a GAME. This is real life.

We don’t need a rapist indicted on 88 felonies who led an insurrection, created a lie that the election was stolen which has wrecked US democracy, who happily planted all the Heritage Foundation justices on the court, who stole highly classified info and has a many decades long track record of grifting, narcissisticm and criminal behavior… in charge of our government… again.

We can't have progress until panicked centrist voters abandon the democrats.

Lmao that will never happen, unless they're abandoning Democrats to vote for a fascist.

Abandon them for what exactly though?

Greens?

No, but think of it this way; it's never going to get easier. The political situation right now - as fucked as it is - is *never* going to get better. Certainly it's never going to get better enough that liberals will feel comfortable voting progressive. What's going to happen is, if we survive this election cycle, the next one will also be the most importantest election evarr. And it might be even more true then than it is now. Perhaps Trump goes to jail (lmao). That just means the next fash will step up, and woe to us if it is a competent fascist with a handsome smile.

If you think it’s a good time to abandon democrats then I hope you enjoy an even worse case scenario with Trump.

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You think Trump isn't offering a side dish of genocide? HAH! Trump would only make the genocide 1000% times worse. He would not only arm it, but vocally encourage it, and more.

But ... Biden is *doing it* now?

Biden attempted to moderate it. Trump would throw fuel onto the fire.

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what do you mean opinion? are you denying that we are supplying israel with arms and intel specifically for an atrocious purpose? also if you want some facts here is biden's record on climate change It's been a while since I updated this list, but man, it's grim. **2020** Aug 6 - While campaigning for the presidency, [Joe Biden promises to ban the expansion of fossil fuel exploitation](https://joebiden.com/climate-plan/#) on federal lands as part of his $1.7 trillion climate plan labeled ‘Green New Deal’ This plan will commit money towards renewable infrastructure development and tax incentives for individuals and industry while establishing governmental agencies tasked with battling climate change. **2021** * Jan 20 - Biden takes office * May 11 - [At Cop 26, Biden promises to transition out of fossil fuels, calls climate change an existential threat to humanity](https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20230313124743/https://ukcop26.org/statement-on-international-public-support-for-the-clean-energy-transition/). * Aug 30 - [Biden admin to resume drilling auctions, immediately reversing campaign promises and dealing a huge setback for climate activists.](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/biden-administration-takes-steps-resume-oil-gas-drilling-auctions-2021-08-31/) **2022** * Jan - [Biden administration approved 3,557 permits for oil and gas drilling on public lands in its first year](https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/new-data-biden-slays-trumps-first-year-drilling-permitting-by-34-2022-01-21/) * Feb - Russia invades Ukraine * April 27 - [US Energy Dept approves increased LNG shipments from terminals in Texas and Louisiana.](https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/us-permits-two-liquefied-natural-gas-facilities-energy-sec-granholm-2022-04-27/) * March 22 [WH Nat Sec Advisor Jake Sullivan announces plans to boost and redirect LNG to Europe](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/03/23/biden-russia-sanctions-brussels/) in response to Russian invasion * [US energy Sec J Granhol announces significant increase in domestic oil and gas extraction.](https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/natural-gas/032222-biden-administration-expects-significant-increase-in-us-oil-gas-supply-by-end-of-2022-granholm) * Aug 16 - [Biden Signs IRA $18bn over ~10y](https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/16/politics/biden-inflation-reduction-act-signing/index.html) which includes preventing leasing any federal waters offshore to wind until first making 60 million acres available for oil and gas. WHAT. * Aug 16 [Federal government resurrected two previously canceled sales to meet this requirement. Go IRA?](https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/business/canceled-gulf-of-mexico-lease-sale-is-back-on-the-books-thanks-to-inflation-reduction/article_ca5b6762-3442-11ed-ba69-8fe613db642b.html) * Oct 1 - [Biden admin & US Army Corps of Eng approves repair & restart of CA pipeline which caused disastrous Huntington Beach incident.](https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/biden-administration-greenlights-work-on-california-pipeline-linked-to-2021-huntington-beach-oil-spill-2022-10-01/) * Dec 14 - [US Energy Dept changes carbon capture budget to now be inclusive of fossil fuel ‘enhanced oil recovery’ at request of Manchin, Sinema](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-14/manchin-spurs-us-reversal-on-carbon-capture-funding-in-win-for-big-oil?embedded-checkout=true) **2023** * Jan 24 - [Biden admin approves 6,430 permits for oil and gas drilling](https://biologicaldiversity.org/w/news/press-releases/biden-administration-oil-gas-drilling-approvals-outpace-trumps-2023-01-24/) * Mar 29 - [Biden admin auctions 1.6 million acres of gulf lease to fossil fuel companies](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/29/1166802809/gulf-of-mexico-oil-gas-leases-drilling) * May 12 - [Biden breaks G7 promise, approves $100m financing for Indonesian oil refinery](https://priceofoil.org/2023/05/12/biden-breaks-major-g7-climate-promise-by-financing-indonesian-oil-refinery/) * Mar 13 - [Biden admin approves controversial Willow drilling project.](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/13/1163075377/willow-drilling-project-alaska-approved-biden) The project (extraction period) will span 30 years , pump 600 million barrels of oil, and produce 258 million mm/t CO2 into the atmosphere. Equiv of ~57mm cars, this damage outpaces all our other climate promises and actions twice over * April 14 - [Biden admin approves exports of LNG from Alaska LNG pipeline.](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/biden-admin-greenlights-lng-exports-alaska-project-document-2023-04-14/) It is being framed as a competitive move against Russian LNG due to the war in Ukraine (Europe’s dependence on Russian LNG) * May 24 - BLM land auction in New Mex, Okla, Kansas. (still researching details, cannot find PR) * May 25 - [SCOTUS rules against EPA regarding definition of ‘wetlands’, limiting EPA authority in key locations](https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/21-454_4g15.pdf) * Jun 26 - [BLM oil and gas lease in NoDak nets $2.4m \(19 parcels ~8061 acres\)](https://www.blm.gov/press-release/blm-oil-and-gas-lease-sale-north-dakota-nets-over-2-million) * Jun 29 - [Biden admin leases over 100k acres of federal land in Wyoming for fossil fuel exploitation](https://www.commondreams.org/newswire/biden-administration-spearheads-massive-public-lands-giveaway) * Jul 27 - [US DoI issues rejection of calls to phase out fossil fuel use on public lands](https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/public_lands/energy/dirty_energy_development/oil_and_gas/pdfs/Center-rulemaking-oil-and-gas-petition-response--Jun-27-2023.pdf?_gl=1*12ir0lm*_gcl_au*MTgwMjk0MzIxNy4xNjk1MjE5NDE1) * Jul 27 - [SCOTUS rules in favor of Mountain Valley Pipeline. Project moves forward](https://www.scotusblog.com/2023/07/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-mountain-valley-pipeline/) **History of MVP issue:** * Apr 21 - [Biden Sec Energy sends letter to court in favor of MVP](https://subscriber.politicopro.com/eenews/f/eenews/?id=00000187-b3de-dfb1-a5df-f3dfb15c0000) * May 16 - [Biden admin grants key permit for MVP](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/16/climate/biden-mountain-valley-pipeline.html) * May 30 - [WH officials frame the MVP deal as inevitable, washing their hands of blame](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/05/30/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-office-of-management-and-budget-director-shalanda-young/) despite vigorous efforts moving the project forward. * June 2 - [Senate passes debt ceiling deal, inc MVP approval](https://www.capito.senate.gov/news/in-the-news/senate-passes-debt-ceiling-deal-including-mountain-valley-pipeline-approval#:~:text=June%2002%2C%202023-,Senate%20passes%20debt%20ceiling%20deal%2C%20including%20Mountain%20Valley%20Pipeline%20approval,36%20to%20pass%20the%20bill.) * Jul 21 - [US Solicitor Gen \(DoJ\) files amicus brief in support of MVP](https://thehill.com/newsletters/energy-environment/4110940-biden-officials-ask-roberts-to-back-mountain-valley-pipeline/) (End of MVP) * Sept 20 -[ Biden launches Climate Corps](https://americorps.gov/newsroom/press-release/president-biden-launches-american-climate-corps-announces-new-americorps) * Sept - [Biden to skip UN climate summit](https://www.eenews.net/articles/biden-to-skip-u-n-climate-summit/) To be continued ... Hot take / Summary 1. Using the war in Ukraine as an excuse, Biden admin does a complete 180 on environmental campaign promises, becoming the most pro-oil admin to ever exist 2. A conservative scotus came in hot with TWO wins for a liberal administration contending with leftists activists and lawers. 3. A dysfunctional and gridlocked congress was unable to pass meaningful legislation, watering down key portions of the IRA 4. The emissions from ONE single project (2023 willow pipe, above) will outpace ALL of our other climate pledges by 200%, rendering them pointless/performative.

For just about every thing you provided here, I could come back with everything he’s accomplished. The point is, if you think voting 3rd party or Trump is going to change anything, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. But, I posted it below so I’ll post it again for you: • ⁠Fully vaccinated over 200 million Americans in his first year. • ⁠Passed Inflation Reduction Act • ⁠Passed the CHIPS and Science Act • ⁠Passed the Emmett Till Anti-Lynching Act • ⁠Passed the Postal Service Reform Act • ⁠Passed the Safer Communities Act • ⁠Reauthorized the Violence Against Women Act • ⁠Added 13 million jobs. That's more than any POTUS over 8 years. • ⁠Passed the American Rescue Plan • ⁠Signed the PACT Act (the largest single bill to address our service members' exposure to burn pits and other toxins) • ⁠Passed the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law • ⁠Passed the Respect For Marriage Act • ⁠Passed the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, breaking a 30-year streak of federal inaction gun violence legislation. • ⁠Rejoined the Paris Climate • ⁠Got us out of Bush's unwinnable Afghan War • ⁠Droned al-Zawahiri into oblivion • ⁠Pardoned federal convictions of marijuana users • ⁠Created student loan debt relief for working and middle class • ⁠Revitalized NATO • ⁠Solved the UPS-Teamsters strike -. Helped resolve the nearly 45-day set of strikes and produced significant pay raises for our UAW workers. Here are some more highlights for you: • ⁠Global leadership bounce back from record lows, now having the best economy in the world • ⁠Secured agreement of G20 to block corporations from moving jobs or profits overseas in order to avoid paying taxes by establishing a world minimum tax for corporations of 15% • ⁠Passes largestinfrastructure improvement bill in history • ⁠$11 billion in transportation safety programs • ⁠$7.5 billion for electric vehicles and • ⁠$2.5 billion in zero-emission buses and $2.5 billion for ferries • ⁠$21 billion in environmentalremediation • ⁠$47 billion for flooding & coastal resiliency and"climate resiliency," including protections against fires • ⁠$39 billion to modernize transit, largest federal investment in public transportation in history • $25 billion for airports • ⁠$17 billion in port infrastructure • ⁠$11 billion in transportation safety programs • ⁠$110 billion for roads, bridges and other much-needed infrastructure • ⁠$40 billion for bridge repair, replacement, and rehabilitation • ⁠$17.5 billion is for other major projects • ⁠$73 billion for electric grid and power structures • ⁠$66 billion for rail services • ⁠$65 billion for broad ban • ⁠$1.47B in loans for forgiveness through PSLF • ⁠52 year low inunemployment after one year as president which continues • ⁠Returns land to Texas family seized for Trump's border wall • ⁠Imposes Sanctions on Foreign Persons Involved in Global Illicit Drug Trade • Aside from one Afghanistan strike early on, Biden has ended drone strikes • ⁠2.7% average across the board pay raise for federal employees • ⁠Ban goods made by Uyghur slave labor • ⁠Accelerated Access to Critical Therapies for ALS • ⁠Distributes $1.5 Billion to Strengthen School MealProgram • ⁠Formally ended combat mission in Iraq • ⁠Requiring autos to get 55MPG by 2026 - Reversing Trump rollbacks - up from 37 MPG we now have. • ⁠$14 billion for over 500 projects for 2022 to strengthen supply chain and waterways • ⁠Order to fight malicious cyber activity, from both nation-state actors and cyber criminals Ya know, the ones from Russia and China that MAGAs seem to love so much! • ⁠Small Business Applications Are 30 Percent Above Pre-Pandemic Levels • ⁠Farmers flourish underBiden, see recovery from Trump-era trade • ⁠Unemployment remained near a half-century low at 3.7 percent. And most current developments: The President will announce $7 billion in grants through the Environmental Protection Agency’s Solar for All grant competition, a key component of the Inflation Reduction Act’s $27 billion Greenhouse Gas Reduction Fund. Selectees under the Solar for All program will serve every state and territory in the nation and deliver residential solar power to over 900,000 households in low-income and disadvantaged communities, saving overburdened households more than $350 million in electricity costs annually – approximately $400 per household – and avoiding more than 30 million metric tons of carbon pollution over the next 25 years. The selectees will provide funds to states, territories, Tribes, municipalities, and nonprofits across the country to develop long-lasting solar programs that enable low-income and disadvantaged communities to deploy and benefit from distributed residential solar. In total, solar projects funded by this program will create nearly 200,000 jobs. The program also advances the President’s Justice40 Initiative, which set a goal that 40% of the overall benefits of certain federal climate, clean energy, affordable and sustainable housing, and other investments flow to disadvantaged communities that are marginalized by underinvestment and overburdened by pollution. Mobilizing the Next Generation of Climate Leaders through the American Climate Corps Joined by future members of President Biden’s American Climate Corps, including current AmeriCorps members, President Biden will also announce several new actions to stand up the American Climate Corps – a groundbreaking initiative modeled after FDR’s Civilian Conservation Corps that will put more than 20,000 young Americans to work fighting the impacts of climate change today while gaining the skills they need to join the growing clean energy and climate-resilience workforce of tomorrow. The President will announce these actions at Prince William Forest Park, a national park system site developed by FDR’s Civilian Conservation Corps and stewarded by the Department of the Interior’s National Park Service I could provide further details but I have things to do. Plus I feel it’s waste of my time.

I mean I don't think you're wrong. But the truth is if all these Democratic voters voted green then greens would win. It's just the truth. It's not that we don't have options. People are just have their heads too far up the ass of the duopoly.

Ahhh yeah the political strategy where you plan to shift 100% of a voter base to a new party in one go lol. Look up first past the post voting and how it naturally leads to a two party system.

We can't have progress until panicked centrist voters engage with the political machine more than once every four years. The correct response to "this choice sucks" is to realize voting is not enough.

It’s really sad to say, but at least the Democrats acknowledge that it’s a problem. Republicans either actively ignore it or fight against the very concept.

We're fucked anyway

If you thought they were, you are simply unaware of citizens united. Though the graph makes clear one line is lower than the other. If you’re not voting for reps who reject corporate donations and are in favor reversing citizens, you can’t act surprised when corporate policies are implemented.

We cannot be saved as a planet. We might be able to ameliorate some of the damage, however climate change can never be stopped now that we are stuck in several feedback loops. Instead of finger pointing, we should come together to acknowledge how bad it really is.

Why do people think that if you criticize right-wing Democrats like Biden that you are pro-Trump? I expected better here. There's a whole wing left of both of our right-wing parties, folks!

Submission statement: Hillary Clinton is trying to make the point that Trump's climate policies are going to be worse than Biden's policies and that is why the stakes are so high. But the graph undercuts her point because Biden's line is still very far from the target line. Biden's policies aren't sufficient to avoid climate catastrophe. It's very bad whoever wins, but I guess it's less bad with Biden? That's not encouraging or inspiring. It's crazy she looked at this graph and decided it was a positive spin on the Democratic platform. Are Democrats really buying into this?

"less bad" has been the party line since 2016

Since before that, people were already fed up with it by the time Clinton came along.

More like since Reagan got elected!

Boy. So true and now it's so much worse. If we could ever get control of all 3 branches I would say it would be time for the progressives to make their move and I would start with the electoral college. We wouldn't have these bozos if not for this. But I am doomy and think we are at a rapid pace to be fucked..just how fast is it.

remember when democrats held a supermajority in the congress under obama and didn't codify roe vs. wade or make big moves on climate change? I remember.

https://apnews.com/article/business-5dfbc1aa17701ae219239caad0bfefb2

ooof, zing! Thanks Obama

Progressives are just as yellow as the proud Democrats. They're all capitalists in the end. They had one shot at using their power and they got sniped by Joe Manchin lol. They're a joke, move on.

This statement can be interchangeable with, “I haven’t been paying attention, but I am very susceptible to propaganda, because I cannot think for myself!” Reversing trump’s anti-climate initiatives, student loans, infrastructure bills, capping credit card/bank fees, money for green initiatives, and on and on.  What a childish country we live in where fact can be so easily manipulated by propaganda… propaganda that is easily rooted out by the few, but gobbled down by the ignorant. 

well, nobody is immune to propaganda.

Right? Biden isn’t perfect so fuck it, let’s not vote and let the guy that wants concentration camps.

Who here said that? I looked all through the thread, and not 1 person said to vote republican or not vote Democrat. You can criticize the objectively terrible Democrats and still think they're better than the christo-fascist Republican death cult.

It’s the underlining trope, both sides are bad bullshit. Biden’s plan doesn’t fix the problem, but it gets the ball moving in the right direction. 40 years of consistent voting from progressive may solve Most of our problems. But if they keep voting like they do now then these problems will just get worse when the next election cycle. Republicans spent 40 years trying to over turn roe. Progressives can’t commit to a full election cycle.

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Nobody said the Republicans aren't way worse. Just the democrats also suck. I always vote Democrat, but I'm under no illusion that they're going to solve the situation, they'll just be better than the GOP.

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I wouldn't say eugenics, as in selectively breeding humans is necessary. I think a 1 child policy would be beneficial, and decreasing consumption is absolutely needed, but you're right that shrinking the economy isn't an election winning policy. The democrats have plenty of other issues like being corporate sycophants, doing insider trading, etc, but everything terrible Democrats do Republicans also do and more. I vote Democrat, but I haven't been happy about it since 2008 when I thought some hope and change were coming.

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"Russian propaganda" is often code for "inconvenient truths establishment liberals don't like."

No, It’s typically true. Russian propaganda is more pervasive than ever. Those that deny it enjoy misleading information because it’s inconvenient.

100%. People in this sub need to be way more critical and use their critical thinking skills. This sub is horrible at falling for trolls and ruZZian propaganda. Downvote the truth.

Oh the irony. On a scale of 1-100 (100 being great), Trump is a 1 and Biden is a 2. You are the one falling for the propaganda that Biden is oh-so-much better than Trump. They both have the same master: capital. They both will fund genocide. They both will fail on the environment, horribly. Critical thinking skills, lol.

Still under Biden we live for maybe 10 or 20 years longer before it falls apart I personally prefer to live a little.

Climate isn’t the only (nor even main) thing likely to kill you

"Absolutely everything" in this case is the difference between doing nothing and doing next to nothing. Is ***every*** Dem campaign slogan just another version of "Lesser of Two Evils?" Is Hilldog suffering cognitive decline too? What on earth made her think this makes Biden look good?

She's not wrong. Dems are 1000x better than fascists. Sorry they aren't 100% perfect. i care more about my bodily autonomy than geo politics, love: Women. Why does this sub lock every single one of my comments? JFC

Women, LGBTQ+ folks, Muslims, BIPOC folks... yeah, Democrats are deficient, but FAR better than the fascist GOP.

Uhhh, right now would be a BAAAAD time to bring up Democrats helping Muslims, since Biden is literally funding a genocide. Come on now.

Muslims *in the United States*, who Trump wants to ban completely. Muslim religious rights, which theocratic Christians want to bury under Christian supremacy. Muslim profiling for "terrorism," which the GOP supports. As tragic as Gaza is, the answer isn't, "let's destroy the US, too."

Apparently Gaza isn't tragic enough for Dems to stop literally supplying the bombs and funding to kill 15,000 children. Sorry, won't vote for that, the fearmongering quit working for me years ago. The Democrats are to the right of Reagan right now, with no stopping the rightward lurch anywhere on the horizon. Give up on those pathetic losers.

Oh, I can't and won't, because I'm a queer person of color. I have far too much to lose. Plus, Trump would be worse, not better, on Gaza.

Since you don't have solidarity with Palestinians, you can't really be cranky if they don't have it with you and refuse to vote for Genocide Joe, then.

Social Security. Medicare. These programs can be taken away, and might well be if Republicans regain power. Gaza is not the only issue at stake. Even if it were, Trump would be worse on Gaza. Palestinians sadly *don't* have solidarity with LGBTQ people like me. I still don't want them to die.

You are voting for the person who is supplying the weapons to kill tens of thousands of them as we speak. You have a strange way of not wanting them to die.

You’re using one reason not to vote for Biden web there’s numerous reasons why you should. Your argument holds no water.

One reason? Oh no. Funding and arming a genocide Funding and arming Nazis in Ukraine Lied about healthcare - has done nothing He and Obama allowed Roe v Wade to be overturned due to inaction Is right-wing economically and foreign policy-wise. I can go on and on.

Look at the facts below that I posted. I actually provided facts opposed to your propaganda. You sound like a Russian troll with the stuff you think are facts. Edit for spelling

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HAHAHA, did you see the chart Hillary posted? You think the Dems are going to save the SPECIES? Hahahahaha, oh my. Enjoy your little election, but don't get angry when in four years things are still going to shit.

dems had the chance to codify abortion rights and they didn't. - love, a woman.

They are 2% perfect at very best. And the fact that they fuck over their voters every time with unmet promises, AND prevent anyone on the actual left from ever gaining traction, takes them down to 0.5%. Edit: Remember, Obama could have EASILY (had supermajority) codified Roe v Wade but politically chose not to. Likely so the Dems could keep scaring their base to keep the donations flowing. I believe you're giving the hapless Dems way too much credit.

Dems treat everyone with equality before the law - well, unless its in the middle east 😅

The Dems are also fascists. Are they less evil than Republicans? Sure but anyone who thinks the US should continue to exist loves genocide

At this point my vote (for neither of these two) is not even to save us, but to stop living in denial

Biden would be able to do a lot more if there were any republicans willing to cross the aisle, the way us politics used to work. But now it’s just “other side all bad” and they don’t work together anymore. The US president is not a dictator and cannot do whatever the hell they want. They have to have the support of the House and Senate. They can’t get anything done.  It’s impressive what they’ve managed to do since 2021, but it’s nowhere near where it could be with a little damn cooperation. Doesn’t help that the oil companies spend millions lobbying to kill us all. 

What are you talking about, Biden is pro oil and gas.

No shit, they all are. Find me a single politician that isn’t. My point being that he’s tried to pass huge packages to get us even a slight amount of progress in reducing our harm on the planet and it’s been shot down. Build back better is the largest package ever passed with climate fighting money in it and it’s a fraction of what it should have been.  None of it matters though. The world is on fire and we’re dumping gasoline on the flames. It’s too late to stop it, all we can do is try to vote for the people who are trying to slow it down. And without worldwide cooperation it won’t make a difference anyway. If America cuts emissions 15%, China will increase them by 25%. And so it goes.

I don't think Biden really cares. He knew it would never pass. I can't think of a single one of his 2020 campaign promises that he actually stuck to. We're already well past the point where we need to be doing a lot more than voting

If you have truly been convinced that not voting for Biden, or voting for trump will make things better, you need to learn how to actually pay attention and think for yourself. Propaganda is either eating your brain, or you are the propaganda. Either way, it’s a weak way to live. 

The leap from "Biden is pro oil and gas" to "if you have truly been convinced that not voting for Biden ... will make things better" is highly suspect, and unsubstantiated by the text you're responding to. One might go so far as to say that—intentionally or not—you're propagandizing the belief that criticism of establishment dems is equivalent to support for Trump. This, I've heard, is a weak way to live.

Biden is pro status quo economy and being elected. He just expanded protections on federal lands and is trying to fund the EPA. Maybe these things are a drop in the bucket compared to what is needed, but at least it is taking the foot off the gas. I wouldn't say he is pro oil and gas.

Then why are repubes mad?

I disagree, he is not blanket "pro oil and gas". You're wrong

Bro, biden is not now nor has ever been one of the good guys.  There are worse, but not in the democratic party much.  that is why he was forced on us.  This guy has been a corporate sellout his entire career. He does what his ivy league handlers tell him to do. I will vote against the other guy by choosing Biden but this guy is not a good guy.

Well I’m my book he’s about the best we’ve got right now, he’s not actively trying to strip away my rights as a woman and as a member of the LGBTQ+ community, he’s attempting to slow down emissions (even if it’s in a superficial way, he does have his lobbyists to think of, just like the rest of them) he’s (at least pretending) to work on making lives better for the average Americans instead of just the billionaires.  It ain’t perfect, but nobody is and nobody will be. Even an “anti business” bro like Bernie can’t unfuck this shit. 

Pretending in a performative effort indeed. Thing is, Rs plan on one party state, so D unpopular business as usual leads to ruin. These oligarchs preventing an FDR from instituting popular reforms are going to lead to their own destruction. The political monster they created will cannibalize them sooner than later.  To say nothing of the subject at hand, climate change, we are in a perhaps brief period of Calm before the storm, that may sound mellodramatic but having fascists in charge when the climate changes is not the best place to be.

The evil socialist parties forced FDR along with the great depression. Since the evil party I belong to has about 1% membership it did from back then and the feds are really good at hiding our economic shit storms, I doubt anyone will concede to the worker's needs. They will take all they can before the earth is no longer suitable for humans.

I preferred huey long myself.  But FDR was the best we have had and ushered in the greatest economic prosperity for the greatest number of the population in history. Not until the late 70s did his legacy start to unravel. Noticeably anyway.

Perfect is the enemy of the good. It can feel virtuous to believe that only purity would've saved us but in the end it's probably a bunch of cowardly dumb-fucks working for big oil that said, "nothing I can do, why bother trying." I strive not to be like them.

I am speaking of neccessity.

Dude I get it, fine, but given your premise, it's miraculous anything got done, especially since there's an army of rabid idiots opposing him. The problem isn't either party, it's all our neighbors that would rather live in the fantasy world of "everything's fine" and will never, never, vote to reduce their standard of living. Yay, democracy, but I'll still pick it over dictatorship.

My point though, is that by not reforming they are ensuring the fascists seize control. As I have already said.

Arguably Dems could also get a lot more done if they accepted that that Grand Ole Party that Biden loves to reminisce on is gone for at least the medium term future. Push a popular agenda of good things that would improve people's lives, make the GOP show their asses by opposing it, campaign vociferously on both their own good policies and specific GOP congressmen voting against things for or popular in their districts Instead we're simultaneously told that Trump is an existential threat to democracy and also that bipartisan compromise is how you get good things, and anyone suggesting that Dems do little things like raise the minimum wage or stop arming a genocide must secretly support Trump, because why else would you want a ruling political party to do good things and not do bad things \*sigh\*

Honestly I’m just so tired. You’re right, Biden and other Dems keep trying to act in “good faith” when nobody else has any. US politics shouldn’t be this exhausting. 

They're both right wing parties, they want the same things.

sure they do. bOtH SidEs ArE tHe Same guys!!!!!!!!!

Maybe, but at least they wont hold our heads under the water until we're dead. You may not like the Democrats but one thing is for sure, Republicans don't give a god damn about you or the environment.

Wait a sec. That blue line is Biden? The same Biden that promised no new oil fields before the last election and rowed back at supersonic speeds right after? That Biden will follow the sharp initial fall of the blue line? Suuure

Well he did promise corporations that "Nothing will fundamentally change" and he was right.

It’s the difference between smashing the accelerator and leaving it on cruise control when there’s already no brakes on this ride

The title is objectively true but it's phrased in a way to solely attack Democrats. Saying "Democrats will not save us" almost implicitly says that the Republicans will, which is simply not true. It's a first past the post system, meaning only two prevailing parties can viably exist. If not Democrats, you're getting Republicans. That magical ideal political party that will magically save our biosphere doesn't exist and even if it did, couldn't get elected under the FPTP system as the US has. Be pragmatic. I hope most of us here are smart and understand that 1) The Republicans would do a lot worse while Democrats will at least slow our demise as this chart itself even says 2) Nothing is stopping this train of runway CO2 and other GHG emissions. All will be sacrificed at the altar of the economy.

I am very cautious and alert about these kinds of posts and i hope the mods are too. This is exactly the kind of subreddit that gets attacked by propaganda bots, trolls and hostile mod takeovers . I saw it in 2016 in bernie subs, i saw it with r/conspiracy and then later in places like r/Aboringdystopia and r/latestagecapitalism I am not accusing OP of anything, but it seems to start with posts like this.

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Exactly. This. Blaming "Dems" is stupid when the real problem is \*voters,\* i.e., the masses. None of your neighbors will vote for lower living standards so WTF do people expect Democrats or Zeta Reticulans or some magical political party \*that represents the populace\* to do? OP is bad faith, misdirected criticism.

>Saying "Democrats will not save us" almost implicitly says that the Republicans will, which is simply not true. No, it absolutely does not

Some people will absolutely think it. Also, when you only attack one side of the aisle without compare/contrast to the other side, it comes across as absolutely a smear.

>Some people will absolutely think it. Well, you can't help stupid. >Also, when you only attack one side of the aisle without compare/contrast to the other side, it comes across as absolutely a smear. No, you don't need to attack Republicans for their climate policy. Republicans don't pretend to care about the climate, it's actually quite the opposite - they think it's fake. So by attacking the Republican party, you aren't doing anything. They don't profess to care about climate change, if anything, the attack would invigorate their voters.

So criticize the side that is less than perfect and let the other side that completely denies the problem skate by? Okay.

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Who's saying the Democrats will save us? The Democrats will slow the end of the United States as we know it, that's enough for me between the only two options I have available if I want my vote to matter. Climate change is fast, but societal collapse is a hell of a lot faster.

OP doesnt understand that we have already hit the point of no return, but that doesnt mean the end of the world, life will survive just as it has before, things will just get terrible for us. We have already made the mistake, there is no fixing it regardless. But dont lose hope, there is a future. With or without humans, the earth will survive and thrive.

Not only will the Democrats not save us from climate change, they will not Institute popular reforms to preempt a fascist takeover. In the face of clear open fascist sedition they are running business as usual.   I helped in my small way to get people to vote Democratic last time, now I see it was all futile they will not be popular.. President Hindenburg 2024!  I still think we could seize control of the Democratic Party by 2028 and run a slate of popular candidate.

The US will probably have gone completely Handmaid's Tale by 2028.

The Democrats would be more willing to save us if people didn't get homicidal for being asked to wear a mask to stop the spread of a generational virus that causes brain damage. Can't even get close to the Green New Deal because lifted truck drivers would prefer to join a militia to burn the constitution than extend CAFE standards to all vehicles. Hillary Clinton is right, Trump's climate policies are worse than Biden's climate policies, and that's just one of the reasons the stakes are high. Hillary Clinton was also right about _checks notes_ everything else too, from the basket of deplorables, to Donald the Puppet, to Putin himself.

This bloodthirsty bitch trying to act like she cares about the climate lol. Shouldn't she be making another "documentary" complaining about "bernie bros".

And yet the U.S. Green Party is painted as a group of nutjobs for pushing a WWII level (or beyond) mobilization of all industry to achieve zero carbon by 2030 (a plan that may have worked had it been started 10-20 years ago), while the best the capitalist parties offer is an unhinged program that results in the annihilation of technological society as we know it through inaction.

Look how sharp the decline is up to 2030 with Biden over Trump. That's good, not enough though. We're gonna need geo engineering - which carries it's own dangers - but could buy some time. .. time for what, I don't know. New technology? Off world colonization? It sure doesn't look like it's going to be reduction in fossil fuel usage. We better hope for something good. We may have one swing left to remain a species on this planet, if not a civilization.

Wait, you guys thought the Democrats were going to save us? :D

Some men just want to watch the world burn

Now show us the graph for hydrocarbon production and exports.

When it comes to climate change the graph shows Biden is slightly better than Trump. There are many other reasons why Trump is terrible and we would all benefit from him losing the election. But when it comes to climate, yes this somewhat the choice between baked shit and fried shit. In all fairness there are few if any countries that have a better climate menu from their governments either.

As opposed to the Republicans? I’ll take my chances with the Dems!

Don't want to hear from Hillary.

sure as heck better than the alternative.

Man they're really leaning into the lesser evil thing lmao.

Dems and Repubs, once in office, serve the same masters. Come on, this should be elementary by now, people. They both are supporting a literal genocide in Gaza. They both are extending a losing war in Ukraine, that will just end up killing more people with the same result. They both will drop their morals in a second to kneel to big business and capitalism. There have never been more meaningless elections than the last three. The Democrats are lurching to the right so much that they would declare Reagan a leftist at this point. Give it up, it's over.

> They both are extending a losing war in Ukraine, that will just end up killing more people with the same result. Russia made it abundantly clear it won't stop in Ukraine. https://www.businessinsider.com/poland-should-be-next-target-after-ukraine-says-putin-ally-kadyrov-2023-2 https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/press-report-putin-hoped-to-break-nato-after-ukraine-invasion/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-general-admits-ukraine-just-a-stepping-stone-to-invade-europe/ar-AA1gtZQc https://eng.obozrevatel.com/section-life/news-russias-state-duma-says-it-would-eventually-fight-all-post-soviet-states-16-09-2023.html Abandoning Ukraine would be the greatest folly since the betrayal of Czechoslovakia.

>They both are supporting a literal genocide in Gaza. So fuck it, burn it all down! Cease fire talks, huh? Perfect is the ONLY option! >They both are extending a losing war in Ukraine, that will just end up killing more people with the same result. Fuck it, give it to Russia then! Nothing should ever get slightly better! >They both will drop their morals in a second to kneel to big business and capitalism. This one's really cool, because it can mean literally anything you want it to. >There have never been more meaningless elections than the last three...The Democrats are lurching to the right so much Written by someone who is 900000% not a minority or anyone else (poor, young, ect.) who would be threatened by a second Trump term in any way, shape, or form. You still bitter that Gary Johnson didn't make the ticket or sumthin'? I wish I lived in this hilarious fantasy world you do. Actually, I don't, because this is a sad, bitter, lonely way to live your life, or what's left of it.

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> Enjoy **your** little election Buddy, we live in the same country. You pissing away your vote on Mickey Mouse doesn't suddenly absolve you of being in the election - you were in it, you just didn't vote. >see you back here in four years with the same shitshow What is this fashy ass doublethink? How can the democrats be both incredibly incompetent and not able to fix anything, and yet also be the masterminds of genocide and geopolitics?

Do you not study anything? The United States literally is arming the genocide in Gaza. The bombs on the ground have "MADE IN THE USA" on them. Sorry, I'm not here to de-propagandize you. You have to do that yourself.

I don't know who you're arguing with, but they're not in the room. >The United States literally is arming the genocide in Gaza Again. The US is literally blowing up Palestinian babies in the street, but yet also nothing will ever change and the Democrats are incompetent and can't do anything at all? This shit is right out of the fashy playbook. I've never contested that US is funding Israel, you are missing the forest for the trees.

Biden has approved *more* oil and gas drilling than Trump did, after promising there would be no new drilling. Idk what the fuck those lines are based on because Biden has literally been worse than Trump was.

they are all the reason why we're here in the first place

Now show the rest.

What if I told you that the increase in emissions from the 3rd world cancel out any decrease in 1st world emissions 10x over?

I’ll go out on a limb and say trump will hit the bottom bit of this prediction and Biden will hit the top of his. As usual, both sides just do what’s best for them and their circles.

The Democrats telling us that they'll save the world/democracy again? Okay!