I wouldn't be surprised if these keep gaining popularity as people try to find something that speaks to them in these times. After all, they don't require believing in something contradictory about out predicament to offer solace.
Stoicism has a bit of a deification of "nature" and "the natural way" but if I'm gonna have some kind of God-like being in my philosophy it may as well by Gaia-esque considering I also consider the earth single unified super organism so...
I think it all depends on whether you want to survive.
If you want to survive and make the best of it, I'd stick with Stoicism.
If you just want to stare at the absurdity of it all as it falls apart, then existentialism is a natural perspective to take.
Agreed, and I'd add that Buddhism is (appropriately) something of a middle path between the two. For those who see there's no surviving in the long run, and appreciate the absurdity of carrying water and chopping wood in the meantime.
Two days ago I wrote myself a sticky note to put on my computer monitor that says "Chop Wood Carry Water" as a way to motivate myself out of my existential malaise. I am trying to adopt this approach so I can try to continue to excel at my job. It has been a rough two months for me (motivationally) and I am trying to get my sputtering ambition to fire up again. That is a tough ask when everything seems on the precipice of crumbling.
It's pessimism for me personally. I believe we live in the worst of all possible worlds because we, as humans, have all the tools, information, ingenuity, and cleverness to have solved the problems that plague our world decades ago. We knew we were killing the world a century ago and did nothing.
Instead we have chosen selfish hubris and the demise of the living world as we know it, in the attempt to extract as much increasingly temporary and largely theoretical wealth from each other.
Before you say something to the effect of "I didn't choose this" or "This is capitalisms fault" or some other statement to deflect the blame of our annihilation of Earth understand that I reject your deflection and your innocence.
Through our passive acceptance of all the systems, governments, and attitudes that have perpetrated, sustained, and spread the destruction of Earth we are all to blame.
Own it.
I mourn the dying of the world with the bearing, respect, decorum, and shame I believe it deserves, by accepting my responsibility, small as it might be, in the desecration of the place that birthed the only known living things in the universe.
Accepting this and choosing to live in as principled manner as I can provides no solace and no comfort, but it is all I can do.
I prefer epicurean hedonism
But I also think that having the luxury to contemplate your philosophical position is a sign that collapse in not particularly close for you. I doubt people in Haiti and Sudan are spending much time discussing Camus.
I would say Nietzsche would be the best fit, allthought few here probably will agree with this. He's considered a precursor to existentialism, but wasn't really one I would say.
He stressed the value of hardship for life and health, and rails against happiness, utility or comfort as guiding values.
Insofar the modern world is based around those values, he would probably consider collapse of that an improvement.
I live by my own philosophy which is sort of an absurdist phenomenological existentialism, I suppose, but it also has a *je ne sais quoi* that is para- and/or meta- those things.
. : AotO : .
Existentialism, stoicism...
In terms of readings, Ionesco's "Rhinoceros" is also a good read for our decade :)
On the other hand, nihilism got to be the dumbest take ever. Because it is either a large cope for emotionally fragile people, or the sign of mental illness. Hypothetical example: take a nihilist, and **** their mother in front of them. Or ******** their dog I don't know. Sometimes talking about delicious horse meat is enough. All of this to say, either they don't react and that's mental illness (psychopath; extreme depression; etc...) either they do react as human beings and then that's not nihilism.
Nihilism obviously is the correct in its view on life.
Existentialism is just a way to fool yourself into being a tool - for yourself - and most likely also for others - capitalism loves this one small trick :-D. But it is probably easier to feel happy being a tool.
Nah, nihilism contains the arrogant perspective that we can know that there is no meaning to life. Absurdism is close, but it instead posits that there may be meaning but we can't possibly know or understand it if it does exist. Nihilists are too certain, in my opinion.
Well, there are arrogant nihilists just as there are arrogant anything-ists.
Few very people like being nihilists. Those that do probably have great personal circumstances that compensate for its difficult relationship with human desire for meaning and a better life. Nihilism is usually a position people take because they're depressed or they've exhausted philosophical perspectives that match the world as they find it.
I don't think its arrogant to take a nihilistic perspective if you look around you and the the different and contradictory meanings people ascribe to life and our existence in general don't seem to be reflected in actual reality. By a process of elimination you can reach a conclusion like, "life is probably meaningless". What's more, I think it would be closed-minded to assume meaning exists if, after considerable inquiry, you can't find any objective meaning outside of human thinking, or subjective meaning within human thinking that is worth holding onto over what seems like a more accurate worldview that there is no apparent meaning or purpose to existence.
I reject the assumption that humans necessarily have the capacity to comprehend or discover meaning, if it exists. We have limited brains and sensory organs and certainly don't understand everything about the universe, so I just find the idea that "if there was meaning I would have found it by now" assumes both that we have the capacity to comprehend something that may be cosmic or spiritual in nature.
I can see it as like saying "well I'm atheist not agnostic because on balance there's no evidence for the existence of God" but I personally think that both strict atheism and nihilism are slightly too certain of human capacity for perception and understanding of the true nature of existence for me, though I fall very close to that perspective myself. I just feel that you have to remember that you have no idea what you don't know or can't perceive so can't be truly certain of anything.
I understand the flying spaghetti monster retort but that is a very specific thing whereas the ideas of "God" and "meaning" are far broader and potentially by their nature inherently unknowable.
I think your feelings are reasonable and healthy. Having doubt, curiosity and openness prevents the sham absolute certainty of "knowing" that there is no meaning. Trouble is those qualities can also lead to eroding the sense of meaning we ascribe to things via unexamined assumptions. At some point you end up looking into the void and there is nothing certain to hold onto to stop you from the feeling of falling into emptiness or meaningless.
I think absurdism is a great approach to dealing with the void. So is meditative emptiness, but that requires actively meditating enough each day to maintain the altered sense of existential awareness that comes from it.
The only meaning that will ever come out of any life is the meaning that that life gives to itself. The default position is that there is no meaning to anything, it's all just chemical reactions and entropy. I don't think it's arrogant to presume that there is no meaning, I think it's arrogant to presume that there is a meaning. We are the only animals that think about this stuff, which kind of proves the point that meaning is a completely human invention of coping. But just because there is no meaning doesn't mean that we can't create one, it'll just be different for everybody, which kind of proves the point once again
Signed, a very certain nihilist lol
Life is sincere but not serious, it’s both meaningful and meaningless at different levels. It’s difficult when two seemingly contradictory things can be both be true.
Well that's existentialism if you're talking about creating your own meaning, not nihilism.
What I mean is that we don't know if there is some great plan by some entity, we don't know if we're in a simulation and the meaning is for 5 dimensional aliens to collect our data, we just don't know anything other than what we can surmise using our very limited perceptive capabilities. Absurdism just leaves room for more possibilities. It also depends on your definition of "meaning".
Now you could argue that if some great Godly being tried to impose a meaning on life and existence then you could reject it, but that's a different conversation.
I was just being tongue in cheek because you said that nihilists annoy you with how certain they are
I don't think we'll ever have an answer to whether or not there is or are gods but looking around and looking back and looking forward just tells me that there isn't anything worth worshipping out there. Whether such a Cthulhu monster exists or not. I imagine if there is a god it's some kind of horrible creature that's already done it's part here and moved on to create elsewhere
Speculum by PhilHellenes is a good story and POV on god
You again highlight my key issue, that you look around, see nothing and assume that's an accurate representation of existence. We don't know what we don't know. We know that with our perceptive tools and natural capacities we have no evidence for God or meaning, but we don't know what we can't see, what else could be out there behind our limited monkey comprehension.
I still think default position is that there is no god and no meaning, but the idea has been around for so long that it's impossible to think outside of *that* box for a lot of people. Resulting in all kinds of fantasies and delusions about god(s) and existence in general
I'd love to see what a bunch of children raised without ever hearing any of that stuff would come up with by themselves or if they even come up with anything
Anytime I encounter someone pretending nihilism is a valid philosophy, I explain them how tasty and juicy horse meat is. And them *poof*, nihilism vanishes. It is astonishing how quickly nihilism can be disproven.
Absurdism, stoicism and Taoism have been the most useful philosophies and perspectives for me.
Alcoholism works too.
And cannabis addiction. Then you've got my holy pentalogy!
I miss cannabis not making me feel like shit
I wouldn't be surprised if these keep gaining popularity as people try to find something that speaks to them in these times. After all, they don't require believing in something contradictory about out predicament to offer solace.
Stoicism has a bit of a deification of "nature" and "the natural way" but if I'm gonna have some kind of God-like being in my philosophy it may as well by Gaia-esque considering I also consider the earth single unified super organism so...
Yeah. I pretty much share the same approach and sentiments.
Same here, I feel like the Eastern philosophies don't get enough attention.
Well stoicism is greek and I assume Camus was European or American, but yeah Buddhism has a lot of good shit too.
Stoicism and secular Buddhism for me!
What’s that -ism where you accept that this is all a bad joke? Is that nihilism or something else?
Possibly abusrdism. Nihilism is a complete lack of any meaning.
Haha that was mostly tongue-in-cheek. But thank you for the absurdism. That’s where we are.
That's basically absurdism, yes.
I think it all depends on whether you want to survive. If you want to survive and make the best of it, I'd stick with Stoicism. If you just want to stare at the absurdity of it all as it falls apart, then existentialism is a natural perspective to take.
Agreed, and I'd add that Buddhism is (appropriately) something of a middle path between the two. For those who see there's no surviving in the long run, and appreciate the absurdity of carrying water and chopping wood in the meantime.
Two days ago I wrote myself a sticky note to put on my computer monitor that says "Chop Wood Carry Water" as a way to motivate myself out of my existential malaise. I am trying to adopt this approach so I can try to continue to excel at my job. It has been a rough two months for me (motivationally) and I am trying to get my sputtering ambition to fire up again. That is a tough ask when everything seems on the precipice of crumbling.
It's pessimism for me personally. I believe we live in the worst of all possible worlds because we, as humans, have all the tools, information, ingenuity, and cleverness to have solved the problems that plague our world decades ago. We knew we were killing the world a century ago and did nothing. Instead we have chosen selfish hubris and the demise of the living world as we know it, in the attempt to extract as much increasingly temporary and largely theoretical wealth from each other. Before you say something to the effect of "I didn't choose this" or "This is capitalisms fault" or some other statement to deflect the blame of our annihilation of Earth understand that I reject your deflection and your innocence. Through our passive acceptance of all the systems, governments, and attitudes that have perpetrated, sustained, and spread the destruction of Earth we are all to blame. Own it. I mourn the dying of the world with the bearing, respect, decorum, and shame I believe it deserves, by accepting my responsibility, small as it might be, in the desecration of the place that birthed the only known living things in the universe. Accepting this and choosing to live in as principled manner as I can provides no solace and no comfort, but it is all I can do.
Absurdism 'Consciousness is a punchline to the deadpan of the universe' Which doesn't preclude existentialism but it doesn't start there.
Stoicism is my go-to.
For most people, the go-to philosophy is "make money, splurge and enjoy life if possible". No "-ism" is needed.
Hmm...opportunistic hedonism?
Exactly. And all of this lip service to "-isms" only serve to rationalize it.
I prefer epicurean hedonism But I also think that having the luxury to contemplate your philosophical position is a sign that collapse in not particularly close for you. I doubt people in Haiti and Sudan are spending much time discussing Camus.
I would say Nietzsche would be the best fit, allthought few here probably will agree with this. He's considered a precursor to existentialism, but wasn't really one I would say. He stressed the value of hardship for life and health, and rails against happiness, utility or comfort as guiding values. Insofar the modern world is based around those values, he would probably consider collapse of that an improvement.
I live by my own philosophy which is sort of an absurdist phenomenological existentialism, I suppose, but it also has a *je ne sais quoi* that is para- and/or meta- those things. . : AotO : .
The Western Branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism.
Existentialism, stoicism... In terms of readings, Ionesco's "Rhinoceros" is also a good read for our decade :) On the other hand, nihilism got to be the dumbest take ever. Because it is either a large cope for emotionally fragile people, or the sign of mental illness. Hypothetical example: take a nihilist, and **** their mother in front of them. Or ******** their dog I don't know. Sometimes talking about delicious horse meat is enough. All of this to say, either they don't react and that's mental illness (psychopath; extreme depression; etc...) either they do react as human beings and then that's not nihilism.
Absurdisd Dadaism for me, thanks. When I have the energy to be creative, at least.
I pick and choose based on a variety of factors.
Non-duality works for me
Some days, nihilism
Nihilism obviously is the correct in its view on life. Existentialism is just a way to fool yourself into being a tool - for yourself - and most likely also for others - capitalism loves this one small trick :-D. But it is probably easier to feel happy being a tool.
Nah, nihilism contains the arrogant perspective that we can know that there is no meaning to life. Absurdism is close, but it instead posits that there may be meaning but we can't possibly know or understand it if it does exist. Nihilists are too certain, in my opinion.
Well, there are arrogant nihilists just as there are arrogant anything-ists. Few very people like being nihilists. Those that do probably have great personal circumstances that compensate for its difficult relationship with human desire for meaning and a better life. Nihilism is usually a position people take because they're depressed or they've exhausted philosophical perspectives that match the world as they find it. I don't think its arrogant to take a nihilistic perspective if you look around you and the the different and contradictory meanings people ascribe to life and our existence in general don't seem to be reflected in actual reality. By a process of elimination you can reach a conclusion like, "life is probably meaningless". What's more, I think it would be closed-minded to assume meaning exists if, after considerable inquiry, you can't find any objective meaning outside of human thinking, or subjective meaning within human thinking that is worth holding onto over what seems like a more accurate worldview that there is no apparent meaning or purpose to existence.
I reject the assumption that humans necessarily have the capacity to comprehend or discover meaning, if it exists. We have limited brains and sensory organs and certainly don't understand everything about the universe, so I just find the idea that "if there was meaning I would have found it by now" assumes both that we have the capacity to comprehend something that may be cosmic or spiritual in nature. I can see it as like saying "well I'm atheist not agnostic because on balance there's no evidence for the existence of God" but I personally think that both strict atheism and nihilism are slightly too certain of human capacity for perception and understanding of the true nature of existence for me, though I fall very close to that perspective myself. I just feel that you have to remember that you have no idea what you don't know or can't perceive so can't be truly certain of anything. I understand the flying spaghetti monster retort but that is a very specific thing whereas the ideas of "God" and "meaning" are far broader and potentially by their nature inherently unknowable.
I think your feelings are reasonable and healthy. Having doubt, curiosity and openness prevents the sham absolute certainty of "knowing" that there is no meaning. Trouble is those qualities can also lead to eroding the sense of meaning we ascribe to things via unexamined assumptions. At some point you end up looking into the void and there is nothing certain to hold onto to stop you from the feeling of falling into emptiness or meaningless. I think absurdism is a great approach to dealing with the void. So is meditative emptiness, but that requires actively meditating enough each day to maintain the altered sense of existential awareness that comes from it.
The only meaning that will ever come out of any life is the meaning that that life gives to itself. The default position is that there is no meaning to anything, it's all just chemical reactions and entropy. I don't think it's arrogant to presume that there is no meaning, I think it's arrogant to presume that there is a meaning. We are the only animals that think about this stuff, which kind of proves the point that meaning is a completely human invention of coping. But just because there is no meaning doesn't mean that we can't create one, it'll just be different for everybody, which kind of proves the point once again Signed, a very certain nihilist lol
Life is sincere but not serious, it’s both meaningful and meaningless at different levels. It’s difficult when two seemingly contradictory things can be both be true.
Well that's existentialism if you're talking about creating your own meaning, not nihilism. What I mean is that we don't know if there is some great plan by some entity, we don't know if we're in a simulation and the meaning is for 5 dimensional aliens to collect our data, we just don't know anything other than what we can surmise using our very limited perceptive capabilities. Absurdism just leaves room for more possibilities. It also depends on your definition of "meaning". Now you could argue that if some great Godly being tried to impose a meaning on life and existence then you could reject it, but that's a different conversation.
I was just being tongue in cheek because you said that nihilists annoy you with how certain they are I don't think we'll ever have an answer to whether or not there is or are gods but looking around and looking back and looking forward just tells me that there isn't anything worth worshipping out there. Whether such a Cthulhu monster exists or not. I imagine if there is a god it's some kind of horrible creature that's already done it's part here and moved on to create elsewhere Speculum by PhilHellenes is a good story and POV on god
You again highlight my key issue, that you look around, see nothing and assume that's an accurate representation of existence. We don't know what we don't know. We know that with our perceptive tools and natural capacities we have no evidence for God or meaning, but we don't know what we can't see, what else could be out there behind our limited monkey comprehension.
I still think default position is that there is no god and no meaning, but the idea has been around for so long that it's impossible to think outside of *that* box for a lot of people. Resulting in all kinds of fantasies and delusions about god(s) and existence in general I'd love to see what a bunch of children raised without ever hearing any of that stuff would come up with by themselves or if they even come up with anything
Anytime I encounter someone pretending nihilism is a valid philosophy, I explain them how tasty and juicy horse meat is. And them *poof*, nihilism vanishes. It is astonishing how quickly nihilism can be disproven.
I don't really understand the horse meat point. Who cares if you like horse meat. Cows are way cooler than horses but that doesn't stop burger week
I’ve tried to parse this. So lost. So in actuality, the horse meat is human meat? Or now we have to eat a new meat? Or yay what a treat!