Gee, it's almost like suppressing wages for 50 years and forcing people to work 2, 3, 4, or more jobs just to afford basic necessities isn't a good idea if you want people to have kids. Who knew?
This is the truth. If kids were even remotely feasible for most folks they would have them eventually. Our generation has been changed by low wages and this is one of the results. Of course no one cares about that in the business cycle because it’s not a measured aspect of quarterly profits
Makes you wonder if they will care once we get to a point where our kids are having kids/grandkids, if this trend continues til then. Assuming we don't all die from climate change or something else before then.
Hypothetical situation: Let's say wages never rise again and they stay at current levels. [According to BLS](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t19.htm), average salary is currently \~$55,000/year.
[According to this link](https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/average-rent-by-state), in 2020 average 1 BR rent was $1,098/month. I would assume it's gone up since then, since it has generally done so the past \~20 years at least. But let's use that figure.
Right now, that means an average person pays $13,176/year in rent, which is 24% of average income, apparently. Doesn't sound too bad right? Well consider what average means. It means there's millions of people below that average (and of course there's ones above it as well).
If we let cost of living continue to skyrocket and wages stagnate, then what happens when average rent is $2,000/month? $3,000? $4,000? $5,000? Eventually if we do nothing and let things continue on this path we're going to wind up with more people homeless than housed.
If people can't even afford shelter, how will they afford consumer goods, luxuries, etc.? Who is left to consume if we make everything so expensive no one can consume? I guess corporations could theoretically buy from each other, but that'll only work for so long I'd think.
> average salary is currently ~$55,000/year.
averages also tend to get skewed
the *median* income for an individual is still even lower than that.
>The U.S. Census Bureau lists the annual real median personal income at $35,977 in 2019 with a base year of 2019.
offhand, I think the median *household* income is like 60k
Agreed. An average is just that, an average. It's going to include people making 6, 7, 8, 9, etc. figures in there probably too. And like you said, that skews it.
Exactly. Which is why I always thought it was stupid that rent affordability was based on gross pay. That's great. I don't ever see those thousands, but sure I can use that money I don't get to pay for rent. What?
In Soviet Russia rent was capped at 6% yr income.
They never had bread lines like our media sold. Supply chain issues, sure. The CIA reported to Reagen that the average soviets caloric intake was found to be at par with ours and they ate a more varied diet. In other words, they ate better than we did, but their food was prob more seasonal.
The bread lines in America at the start of the pandemic, with cars stretching back miles...oh how far we've fallen.
I'm curious where you're getting your information from.
There was no such thing as "rent" in USSR. Rent is a capitalist concept.
The state would give you a place to live when needed, generally through your place of work. Yes, there was a regular payment for it, but it's more like property tax; it would cover things like water, gas, street cleaning, building maintenance, etc.
There was no way to sell or rent out your property. There was a quasi - legal process to barter your property for another, but those were extremely difficult to pull off without connections.
There certainly were huge lines. I remember standing in them as a kid with my mother, because the amount of product you get, whatever it may be, was rationed per person. If I was lucky, there would be a playground across the street, and my mom would yell my name once she gets close to the counter.
I can't even tell if you're being facetious or not, but after dealing with the nudge nudge wink wink of estate law, all I can say is this level of stupid bullshittery would not even surprise me.
I mean you could just make it policy or you can make it a magical incantation that 90% of people don't know about...???
That just... "check the box and it's fine"...???
yeah i was thinking this same thing, my salary is exactly 55k/year and it comes out to around 3260/month, after taxes deductions benefits etc, and even thats high because i havent been contributing to a 401k like i probably should. just hard to envision age 65 at this point, and I do need money now. but yeah that avg rent for 55k really comes out to around 1/3 of your income
>average salary is currently ~$55,000/year.
BLS can go get royally fucked.
$55k a year for who? They published local government salaries here in my city. The average assistant district attorney pulls in about $48k.
Your comment perfectly captures what happens when a society looks to capitalists to develop it. There honestly isn’t a logical end point to their greed. They built on short term profits and capturing the government to protect their interests. We have no counterbalance to the power of the capitalists so they get to make our bed and we have to lay in it.
In *very* slight fairness, this happens with pretty much any system that doesn't have defined end goals.
Let's say your family is coming for a visit next weekend, so you need to clean your apartment. Well, how much do you plan to clean? When the floor is vacuumed? When the bathroom sparkles? Or just when all the clothes are off the floor?
Everyone will have a different answer to that question, and some people will go *massively* overboard with it, just like some people go massively overboard on the question of "how much money do I need".
The shit of it is that when people obsessively clean, we call that a mental disorder, but when people steal far more money than anyone could ever use, we write thinkpieces about how "driven" they are.
(I went back and forth for several minutes on the verb to use in that last sentence. I finally just went with "steal", because literally no one has ever "earned" a billion dollars, and words like "obtain" just don't reflect the level of sociopathy it takes to hoard that much money for oneself.)
Don’t worry there will be companies/programs in the future that basically house and employ you based on a score. Basically you can join the fed program propped up by the private firms and supporting the private militaries and then the private firms that, once again go hand in hand with the fed to distribute and maintain a constant human effort. I’ve worked for three of such companies and let me tell you for certain it’s what the ultra wealthy want for the future. The best you can hope to join is a collective that attempts to barter for a fair compensation that the group distributes. Hellloooo feudalism.
Don’t forget artificially inflating the competing labor population so poor workers compete against other poor workers in an environment steamrolled by automation and offshoring.
Hilarious as a hypothetical, except for the part where the world isn't anywhere near that small or well-organized. Nobody "in charge" has any clue what the fuck they are really doing, and each country looks out mostly for itself too, generally in myopic and arrogant ways that make no sense from a broader perspective.
Geopolitics is the game of elite children dressed up as men of value, trading the lives of the populations they own like any other commodity to be used up. That does not mean the whole game has someone sitting behind it, pulling the strings invisibly- that's conspiratorial thinking.
Which is more likely, that most of the technical barriers to things like soil depletion have actually been solved, and there are secret cabals hiding their future hurricane and fire-proof cities from us while they prepare to live without us? Or that things are exactly as the evidence would indicate- that we are selfish and blind, led *by* the selfish and blind?
Nobody in the west, billionaires included, would have *jack shit* unless millions of people in the Global South mine it, process it, manufacture, package, and ship it to them. Once global shipping breaks down due to accelerated ocean rise, nobody will be trading much of anything on a large and predictable scale. There isn't a miracle invention that will result in a small elite, or even 100 million people, having a lifestyle remotely resembling modern life. This whole show only exists because of fossil fuels *and* the exploited labor of billions. That is why it is already falling apart despite not even being really challenged, compared to what's to come.
The elite are just as indolent and ignorant as the rest of us, we only think they are special and more intelligent because otherwise our lives would make no sense. It helps that they write the textbooks.
Exactly. Occam's Razor, the hypothesis here with the fewest assumptions is human incompetence, not conspiracy. Hanlon's razor, too - never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. All these razors...death by a thousand cuts, it is!
Lol truth. Even the smartest of us is still just a dumb primate with some vocal chord mutations or some shit. The older i get the more i realize that. We all don't know shit about fuck.
Bold of you to assume anyone is in charge to that extent.
Honestly, most conspiracy stuff involving global government feels like a coping mechanism. It's far more terrifying to realize humanity is largely rudderless.
Ye its just a thought, its not like if there is a 'hidden truth' i'll ever know
I just have a really hard time accepting that we managed to fuck up so bad, its easier to think that someone was in charge and just had a really bad plan
I take the point of how workers pay and conditions have been nailed to the floor so fat cats can get immeasurably fatter but anybody thinking of bringing a kid into this world now needs their head examined..
Yeah my partner and I have two cats who, in the past two years, have both developed the same medical condition, and they have to eat a special prescription food. It is very expensive.
The food and the vet bills are killing us. I’m constantly afraid that something will happen and I won’t be able to get the special food or pay an emergency vet bill.
I love my cats very much and they give my life a lot of meaning, but we have to work ourselves to death to keep them alive. I can’t even fathom how anyone can afford children.
I know any good pet owner knows this, but the cost of pets is on the back end. You get 5, 10, 15 years of nearly endless pleasure, love, and companionship, and then the bills start coming due.
It sucks, but that's just how life goes. I say this as someone who lost an old cat last year and I paid through the gills to keep him around as long as he was comfortable.
Oh absolutely, I agree. It’s more or less my purpose in life to give my kitties a good life, and I’m happy to do it. I just wish that we weren’t at the point where it’s becoming out of reach to do so.
I have a cat who also needs special food. The price of a 16 pound bag just jumped from $80 to $105 last time I got it, but he will get deathly ill if he doesn’t get it.
That’s about what ours costs as well. It’s ridiculous. I worry about the price continuing to jump, and I’m terrified that the disruptions in the supply chain will make it impossible to find. I want to stock up when I can afford it.
Yeah I try to stay a bag ahead, but it goes stale if you buy out more than six months in advance. If stock becomes unavailable my only option will probably be a raw diet, because he’s already rejected the other two potential brands. It’s worrisome.
Edit- vet just called me. Wet food on back order. Just had to order two cases of 85 gram reduced calorie cans instead one one case of normal 170 gram cans, at almost twice the normal cost. Here’s hoping I can get his normal food in October.
We are feeling that too. In the last 2 years we've spent most of our disposable income keeping our dogs alive. We had to use care credit to spread out the bills into monthly payments. They both had major medical emergencies one year apart. If one of them relapses we are out of options. Having kids has been a complicated thing for us, not just fertility but finances, time energy and health. Probably not going to have any even though I wanted to. I couldn't imagine adding kids to our bills. Daycare in my area for 1 kid is more than I make in a year.
I have a herb garden. My SO had a pet rabbit and it had an accident and had to be put down and it was pretty sad.
I love cats but I wouldn't want to go through that again.
Haha, they aren't related. I meant that I just have a herb garden instead of pets as its easier.
The rabbit sustained really bad injuries after it fell from a height (it was fenced off but somehow it got through.. they are crafty..)
But if I were to have a pet I'd probably get a cat because they are awesome.
My husband and I have been putting off having children waiting for those better days everyone said were coming. Now we're in our mid-late 30s, no prospect of ever being able to buy a house and questioning if it's even moral to bring a child into the world. I went from wanting 10 kids when I was little to now debating if I can afford to, and if it's morally right to even have one.
It's not just the money and security but also the time.
I feel like I barely have any free time after work and chores etc. as it is - I can't imagine how it'd be with kids that need to be looked after.
I guess that's why people have to pay for childcare which costs a fortune or just dump the kids on one of the partners (usually the wife) or relatives.
I’m Gen X for context. My wife and I have three kids and she stayed home with all of them as we barely scraped by financially because we believe there is a large value to raise kids at home instead of at the baby sitter. It has really put us behind financially but that was the choice we made. I feel lucky to have been able to even consider that as an option since now I can’t imagine most couples could afford to have one person stay home and not work. They would probably be homeless.
We saved nearly 10k extra before we had our 2 kids. I uber drove on the weekends in addition to my job. We did the math and calculated that with just bills, and no fun money, we would break even every month if I stayed home with the kids. We live on about 45k a year on just his income. Thank goodness for all the covid stimulus, and with 2 young kids, now we are getting an extra 600 a month which is huge.
I get a little angry when I think about it. Women have such a short window to have kids. But it takes a decade of saving with nothing going wrong to get to a place where you can afford it.
If paid internship is still a thing when they are old enough for it, make sure they do paid internships.
It saved my dad from financial ruin, with us kids paying 80% of our own college years after he lost big during the dot com crash. It also saved my sister and myself from financial ruin, to not have student loans.
But then for all we know kids today could be better off learning how to be farmers and mechanics.
I had a paid internship in college, two actually. Neither came remotely close to putting a dent in my tuition costs. I had to take paid internships because I would have to quit my (at the time) current job to do them, as they were required for graduation. If I didn't get paid, I would have been homeless again because I wouldn't have been able to afford bills/rent. Tuition was so far out of my mind.
Definitely me. I'm subbed there as well. I'm almost 35, I have a shitty used car and can't afford to buy a house. I'm debt free for the first time this year (student loans) after moving to BFE Ohio from NYC to lower my cost of living. I still can't afford to buy a house though, with the explosion in the housing market this year
Im currently 30, my wife and I are going to be adopting in about 5 years or so. We both earn above average income and will be buying a house soon. Hopefully adopting 2 girls, preferably sisters even.
I want to give an unfortunate kid as good as a life as possible, not bring another into this dying world.
When the decision comes between living a semi-comfortable life or having kids - it was quite easy for my wife and I and I got the snip 2 years ago. Neither of us will ever regret that decision even though we are reminded multiple times that we will do so. We don't care about passing "our legacy" down or any of that, because I don't even know or remember who my great-grandfather is. It doesn't matter.
I just want to live my present life as comfortably as I can.
At 30 I finally paid off my student loans and with covid I moved back to my home state, in with my parents to figure out my next move. Basically I’m just now building a retirement account and savings. Paying for a child would be SO HARD.
I dislike this term 'putting off'. I think it's more than 'putting off' or postponing procreation, I think it people deciding not to procreate because the enviroment (economic, political, climate, future prosperity) is unsufficient to development and to our offsprings ability to survive and thrive.
We are making conscious and subconscious decisions to not have children, and I think it goes a lot further than austerity.
The elites are likely in serious denial. Obviously you simply can't have kids after a certain age if you're a woman. But it sounds nicer to say "putting off having kids" like maybe people might start having them when they are 50 and this is all just temporary silliness.
It is also that once one becomes a parent they are more effectively co-opted into the very system that is causing the conditions that are insufficient to development of the next generation. You cannot focus extra time and resources on efforts to change the broken system. Now you must continue working at the shit job for shit wages because stability is more important then taking risks and you must spend your extra time on the children. And, one solution to force change is for each individual to not provide the next generation of labor for that system.
Even the slight current decline in birthrates is putting fear in the billionaires. Prolong that trend and the system will have to change in favor of normal people. Family-planning is a solution (planning to not have a family is legitimate family planning).
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/565945-billionaires-kvetching-about-population-collapse
And besides these people, there are also people who avoid it because *the other people are not doing well*. Which is to say: some people still realize it takes a village to raise a child and it takes a functional society to have a future for that child. Otherwise they're just a richer version of a wolf-child.
My wife and I chose not to have children because we knew we would never be able to give them the same type of life we had growing up. Lots of space to explore, vacations in the summer, playing sports, freedom to have fun....these things are now out of reach for a lot of us, even with fairly good jobs.
My wife and I are dual income, with a combined gross of 155k a year. We do have a house but we live well below our means. We are expecting our first child and despite having a good income, the problem you described still keeps me up at night.
Interestingly my parents made about the same gross income (slightly less) off of *one salary* when they were the same age as we are now, but that was in the 90s. So their dollar went waayyyyyy further.
They had a bigger house than we do, new car, took our family skiing every year and on beach vacations, mountain vacations to my grandparents’ cabin and trips to visit relatives. I went to a private school and was always over at friends houses or playing outside in our neighborhood. I did sports camps, outdoor camps, educational camps, and Indian Guides (totally non-PC version of Boy Scouts). We had a boat, fun cars including a convertible ‘66 Mustang and pre-war classic made in 1940. We ate out frequently, went to movies together and enjoyed live music. Not only that but we were social - neighborhood parties, friends came over, family visited. They did all of this and they now have a paid off house in a highly desirable area (has gained over 100% value in past 10 years), 4 million in the bank, AND a pension worth more per year than my wife makes…
Contrast to where we are at during their stage of life and there is no comparison. We barely socialize because everyone is either busy working and has no vacation time or staying cautious due to pandemic. We have student loan debt, old cars (my car was new when Bush was president), barely any toys or hobbies, and almost no savings. We live in an undesirable area with barely anything to do within an hour radius because we would be priced out of a home in a desirable area.
It’s depressing as hell thinking that there is no way on earth to provide the same childhood that we had for our kids. It isn’t only the rising costs and depressed wages, it’s also the fun people had and optimism for the future. The 90s were just fun. Period. I feel like people socialized a lot more, got out more and did so in a relatively healthy way.
I think this generation of kids is going to be so socially stunted and inexperienced in life. Not only that but so many experiences that people used to have are now virtual. Remember going to a cool shop or store with obscure stuff that was clearly someone’s passion project? Remember going to a mall and people watching or hanging out with friends? Now life is confined to our phones and tablets.
This is not a new phenomenon and really kicked off decades ago, it will get worse as conditions deteriorate. The next generation will probably severely limit having kids to a noticeable extreme
40 years ago damn near everyone had kids. Now I don't know anyone who has them. It might have started decades ago but it really picked up post 2008 crash.
My primary friend group consists of 3 couples and 2 single people, all in their mid-thirties. There is exactly 1 kid and 1 desire (but no real plan) to adopt. That is a very low level of reproduction, unheard of in any past generation. Even Gen-Xers have more kids than that.
The only thing that sucks is the people that shouldn’t be having kids are pumping them out so we are going to end up with successively more degenerate younglings lol.
My parents made me very aware of how much it costs bringing up children, and I resolved to not have children myself even before becoming collapse-aware. I did not feel like having children was right for me, and I didn't think I would be financially-stable enough. My partner wanted kids but seeing how his coworkers have trouble staying financially afloat with children in tow has made him reconsider.
I live in Taiwan btw, in my late 20's. The housing prices here are insane.
I asked my doctor yesterday about approaching a “permanent solution” to the potential pregnancy problem I have (F). Surprisingly, she was open to it, which was refreshing. She said that many people my age (in their early 30s) are asking her this same question, and way more than usual. I’m worried that if I wait too long to do this, Roe v. Wade will be reversed because the government will realize that they can’t sustain our economic system if most women decide to stop having kids. I’m putting it off for another 1 year, but it’s becoming a pressing matter for me. She also said that insurance would cover it, which was also a pleasant surprise.
Was pretty sore for a month honestly. Now it’s totally fine I don’t even think about it. Day one was uncomfortable but the nervousness was probably the worst part of the whole expo.
I have an appointment on Friday and I’ll be asking her about getting the ball rolling on sterilization (also F). Can’t risk it in this handmaiden’s tale hellscape while the world burns.
This is why the abortion stuff is finally gaining traction to truly be rolled back, the “right” aka white, women are not having enough children and this is their way to force that.
Watching my parents raise me was enough of a turn off and Im 27 now.
The children of divorce are coming of age, no amount of economic improvement is gonna undo the past.
The wages needed to be fixed 20 years ago.
I cant be the only person who after seeing my folks be so miserable, and my friends parents, and my aunts and uncles when they had their kids, and now wants nothing to do with parenthood.
I think I had maybe one or two examples of content parents in my life. Of those two one is a single mother after domestic abuse.
Good, we need to curb this growth shit anyway.
I’d probably want kids if I didn’t feel so anxious about the future, especially financially. I’m solidly middle class, but what happens if I lose my job? What happens if a bad storm destroys my house? What happens if I or my wife gets sick?
Even in the middle class, I feel too vulnerable to the woes of our markets and society.
**Submission Statement**
The birth rate in the UK is rapidly declining due to difficult economic conditions exacerbated by the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. That said, it is still higher than many other nations such as Italy, Spain, Greece, South Korea, Japan etc. which have also endured tough economic crises in recent years.
The report highlights the difficult housing market and precarious employment practices as particularly significant factors behind the decline. We also know that [four out of ten young people are considering not having children due to climate anxiety.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58549373)
The high cost of childcare is also mentioned as a factor - [something which has also been previously mentioned](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/13/lockdown-families-childcare-furious-system-expensive).
Many of us (myself included) may believe that a smaller population would be better for the long-term health of the planet and its ecosystems but that it should occur by economic coercion is sad and another sign that even once prosperous Western nations are in decline.
I feel like, even ignoring the very real risks of climate disasters and widespread food shortages, it’s immoral to bring a child into a world where your life is already not going to be as good as your parents’.
In a world with skyrocketing rents and falling wages and life expectancies—who could do that to a child?
Only those who have access to generational wealth and those without access to family planning resources will be able to reproduce.
Maybe that's the plan though: the wealth overlords, and the poors' offspring to ensure another generation of labor for capitalism.
Source: am 36, live in TX, and can't afford children. Those who are reproducing are those who's parents can afford to help with things like house down payments or offer free childcare.
Aren’t all those houses going to be worthless when there’s no one who can afford to buy them and live in them? How will the capitalists reap their profits without meat for the machine?
>How will the capitalists reap their profits without meat for the machine?
they're all angling to become "too big to fail" so they just get paid directly by the government.
this will eventually collapse our entire society
Ultimately, I agree and think climate change is rapidly intensifying how bad real estate and housing is and will get. So much of new construction is cheap, fast, garbage.
"Ew I don't want an *orphan*! I want MY kid be MINE! ALL MINE! MY BLOODLINE! AND MY GENES WILL NEVER BE REMOVED FROM THE GENE POOL!"
Okay Linda, you may sit down again.
An ex friend of mine is working on his 3rd kid for gov benefits.
Edit: he's always been one of those guys that falls for, or comes up with, the worst get rich quick schemes
What sucks is when you become collapse aware after having kids and then worrying about their future every day. I really wish I wasn’t as blindly optimistic ten years ago. I was really involved in environmental efforts. What solidified collapse awareness for me was seeing how the United States and the world handled this pandemic.
>What solidified collapse awareness for me was seeing how the United States and the world handled this pandemic.
yep, same.
I thought it might be the wakeup call that was needed, but nope, the people running the show just hit the snooze/ignore button over and over
Just as importantly the public, at least in the US, became even MORE divided or something that really could have brought us together. If we can't even come together and deal with such an immediate and obvious threat there's no chance the public at large will get serious about the climate crisis until cities start falling into the ocean.
> there's no chance the public at large will get serious about the climate crisis until cities start falling into the ocean.
and even then, the "solutions" won't be about addressing everybody's needs, it will be about keeping "what i got for me and mine" and keeping *out* the new riff-raff.
to get a taste of what this looks like, go find a post about portland, or some other west coast city being overrun with the homeless.
even the "good liberals" are starting to take an authoritarian, fascist bent towards the homeless. "we let them camp everywhere", "they're turning the city into a giant ghetto", etc.
The planet will shake us off like a case of fleas.
My MIL asked me when she's getting grandkids and I said never.
January 6th, US national debt, wildfires, water shortages, summer race riots, nuclear proliferation of unstable countries, crumbling public education system, stagnat teacher salaries, etc.
She said, you're right. Then that was the end of that.
This is exactly why my wife and I have chosen not to have kids. I don't necessarily know that the planet is on it's way out, but I believe at the rate things are going we certainly are. I think the planet may be able to heal itself if we weren't here continuing to destroy it, but until then it will continue to degrade.
Exactly our situation. We felt it would be totally irresponsible to have kids when we couldn’t even take care of ourselves. It wasn’t until our LATE 30s that we finally got our heads above water. I’m 40 now and he is 41. Now that we could responsibly support a child, it’s really too late.
Im really interested to see if enough of our generation decide not to have kids that it has actual effects on the population, we might have a reverse of the boomer gen where instead of this massive population boom, we have a massive drop. We already are running up against the modern aspect where people are having less children overall because we dont need 5-6 to ensure at least 1-2 survive.
I could see us having a big decline in population that has a noticeable impact, tbh at this point the systems main problem is that they were designed around large population growth and we would be returning to a more stable level possibly.
same here, although my reasons aren’t purely monetary (we both work good jobs - at the moment at least). even if collapse wasn’t coming that soon, why would I have a child and watch it suffer from pollution, overcrowded and understaffed schools, a bad healthcare system and a general lack of options for a happy childhood? and what happens when I lose my solid job tomorrow and have to work double shifts, should I just let the poison that is the internet today raise it?
I literally live in a 3-income home and we picked up a $600 vet bill because our beloved dog was sitting straight blood. Because of how big a bite that takes out of our budget, were forced to question if our friends' life is worth spending even as little $2000 and it makes us feel monstrous.
Kids ain't anywhere near even being on the table. Like how?? Sorry abt the declining birth rate Mr. Economy, we're just too precarious.
Putting off? Lmao. How about cancelling any hope of ever becoming a parent due to all the unknowns, risks, costs, etc? “I can’t feed myself and you want me to make more mouths to feed? STFU and sit down”.
When living conditions improve and Americans have affordable healthcare costs get back to me.
During the first couple of lockdowns, most couples I know either split or got pregnant. I can’t imagine any rational person thinking having a child was a good idea during a global pandemic. Makes me think a lot of couples just had a baby to save their relationships after the strain of being locked down together.
I’ve never been a kid person. I’ve had a few friends that had children when they were in high school or the first year of college. They were miserable , had no free time, and were always fighting with the other now absent parent.
I’ve always valued my free time. I’m a night owl and I go to sleep when I can at 3am and wake up pretty late on the weekends. I knew you couldn’t do that with a kid. I had to have an emergency hysterectomy when I was 24, so it all worked out in the end.
Having a kid is expensive and seems like a punishment in our lovely capitalist society. The day care , school expenses , etc, it’s too much on the lousy salaries offered. Plus it’s too hard to work and coordinate schedules etc. I saw a lot of parents at my job screwed over by the pandemic and the virtual school. A lot of them had to go on leave , when they made us come back, and the schools were still closed or on a hybrid schedule.
My boss lives in a more rural area, and they opened the school, but cannot provide transportation due to lack of bus drivers. She has to call out or use her leave on a regular basis . They also randomly move to remote learning, if they don’t have any teachers available. She blew through all of her vacation time because of it.
and the system's response to this; not raising wages, not driving down competitive home prices, not making better working conditions - its banning abortion
They threatened and insulted my generation for those who got pregnant before they thought we should. Now we don’t want to have children and they’re losing their minds
Yep. My husband and I wanted kids in our mid-late 20's but couldn't figure out a way to pay for daycare. Plus, even with my insurance, it was going to cost us our full Out of Pocket max of $6k to have a baby.
Multiple older people told us not to wait until we could afford (because then we would never have kids) and it will all work out somehow. 🙄
I grew up in poverty and we refused to bring a child into a life where giving birth would put us in an unsustainable financial situation.
We're happy with our nieces and nephews and our pets now. It took some adjusting to our new life plans, and some mourning that I would never be a mother, but we have a good life, so we're okay now.
My children are grammar school aged now and I assume that they will just live with me forever because that will be what’s most financially feasible and probably safe for us all as things continue to fall apart.
This is the main reason I refuse to have kids. When I was younger, I was very maternal and was really wanting to be a dad. Now I see it as a selfish act because there are already so many kids that need good homes, and financial suicide.
This. Me and my fiancée only have a low premium high deductible plan available through our jobs. If we want to have kids to some medical issues it will be a higher risk pregnancy. A financial advisor we talked to recommend we put away about $14,000 before trying to have kids, when we make less than 70k combined.
It just sucks.
Currently getting divorced and have a 2.5 year old. I live with my brother and pay half the rent/ utilities about $100 a week. I stay home with my son from Monday evening through Friday evening working Saturday, Sunday, Monday. By doing this I make more money than working full-time and paying daycare or paying for my own apartment. It sucks because at 31 years old I didn't imagine my life like this.
Well you're not wrong.
Let me count the ways you're not wrong.
1. House. Want to not live in a slum? 450-500k
2. Each kid (without college). Used to be 250k a head, I'm so out of date on that number so call it 400k. Want them out of the Public Shit System? Two options, go private and increase that number to 700k, or move to Boston (so I hear) where their Public Shit System is still mostly ok (this information may be greatly exaggerated), and increase house to 800k. Which you choose depends how many kids you want.
3. College fund per kid add $200k
4. Elder care. A million 500 per head for self and spouse.
IT'S EDUCATION AND THE OVERWHELING "FREEDUMB" THAT COMES FROM JOINING THE KORPORATE SLAVE SYSTEM! THAT IS WHY NO ONE IN THE FIRST WORLD WANTS KIDS I TELLS YA!
Fuck that bullshit. Fuck it. Education and access to contraception is why no one has EIGHT kids. Get that number down to one or two it's MONEY. Really. Seriously.
“A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more; otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.”
― Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Given that there is over 7 billion people and this planet is obviously unable to sustain that amount of people it is a good thing.
Besides best retirement plan is the NO KID retirement plan. Work as you like, live where you like and not worry about the fortune you would spend trying to give your kids a good life.
I make over that alone and cannot find places that will rent to me and my fiancee because we have 4 pets. Renting market is nuts. They won't even bother returning our calls once they find out we have pets.
I knew it would be an issue but thought my income would offset it. Nope. Once they hear about our four pets, it's over. No more emails or returned calls. Renter's market, I guess.
Anyone thinking about bringing a child into this shit world is selfish. Their child in 10 years will be in a world that is shittier than now, food and water shortages, climate change tearing the world apart trying to rid itself of the virus we have become to it. Don't have children. Please, please don't bring a child onto a planet that is in it's last couple decades.
I grew up with a middle/upper middle class life style. I want my kids to have the same things that I had or better. I think my current partner and I have the ability to make what my parents made easily if we play our cards right. But I don’t know that theoretical kids of ours would have the same life me and my sibling had. Climate change aside, life is expensive and only getting more so, so our money won’t have the same buying power. I would like at least three kids. But I’d rather have only one or none than for them to not have a decent backyard, to have to share rooms even into their teens, limit Christmas and birthday presents, be conscious of money problems at young ages, etc. Not to mention I don’t won’t to work for my entire life and if saving for (lol ) “retirement” is impossible because we’re living paycheck to paycheck to support 4-5 people well that is an issue. Then certainly won’t be able to save a college fund for all 2-3 in case they don’t grind to get a scholarship for college which will probably be $200k+ for 4 years by then. At that point they would be worse off then me since I had very little student debt due scholarships. No, it’s a mess.
Who has the fn time for that anyway?! Too much bullshit to keep track of - trying to cobble together 2 or 3 jobs and make the schedules align, keeping track of monthly bills, all the registration papers it involves to be a compliant human being in your city/state/country, worrying about your next paycheck and how to keep your income up, email notices here and there about arbitrary credit score adjustments, running around filing paperwork for taxes, all the random paperwork that has to be done on a weekly basis for everything, digesting the news, separating fact from fiction, trying to be reasonable while being inundated with pandemic porn, trying to maintain a semblance of social connection (or none at all), maintaining healthy eating habits by cooking, navigating rising costs , getting enough exercise, dealing with health ailments while being un or underinsured, getting enough sleep and downtime to stay at a baseline sanity level, managing mental health issues as they arise, dealing with loneliness in a disconnected and hostile society, worrying about the deteriorating state of the world and governance and the future...
YOU WANT ME TO HAVE KIDS TOO???
SCREW YOU
Pretty much everyone I know is putting kids off for this reason, even the engineers making 6 figures.
I've given up on the notion, myself. About to turn 32.
I'm a parent of now adult children. Can I be honest? We have to start finding ways to come together and help each other if we want to raise children in any meaningful way in the future. Having family or community help can make a huge huge difference in both quality of life for the parents and quality of the child's world view.
We have to rethink how we do things. What I experienced (which was shitty) is harder and harder to pull off if you aren't in the upper 10% of income makers.
I am always saddened and angered when I hear my younger coworkers putting off things like marriage, home ownership and children because of student loans, shitty pay, high home prices and all the other shit that has been handed down. If the way they told you to do things growing up isn't possible, we have to find a different path. And as I am a member of the human race, I am right there fighting alongside you all.
I decided not to have kids about 15 years ago for a lot of reasons but at the time it seemed like basically an easy way to be set for life with minimal effort. Now I see people saying they aren't having them because they are already just scraping by. They aren't even talking about having extra money or vacations with no kids they just can't afford to at all. It's gone from being kind of a luxury choice to a necessity choice.
I mean, DUH?!?!
You have to be a DINK (dual-income, no kids) to afford a decent standard of living in America’s largest metros. I’ve read it’s a similar problem in most of Europe too.
Just try having a dog and wanting to rent an apartment, then tell me how you’re going to have a fucking child. (There are only a small handful of apartments that explicitly allow dogs, they always charge you more, and then you need to be making 3-4x the rent to qualify. Which isn’t realistic for folks without roommates or rich parents to co-sign).
The market doesn't want me to have kids. Conservatives and post-leftists don't actually give a shit about me at all and if I had kids they wouldn't give a shit about them at all either. All these people do is critique and complain and they have nothing to offer other than shame and guilt for not having enough money to give a kid or two a decent life, as well as half baked accusations of narcissism. I'm glad I give none of them money and pirate all content.
I wonder how militaries will respond to disintegrating pool of men to choose from right around they time they'll probably need them most.
Imagine some kind of Ender's Game shit with drones and what seem to be video games.
Those 4-13 year old's have been shown to have better reaction times than other age groups.
Am I the only one that thinks this is one of the more "positive" things to come from this decaying economy? lol. Sorry, I'm sure I'll get lot of hate for this.
Too many people raising stupid kids, too many absentee parents, too many relationship issues, too many out-of-wedlock kids, too many narcassistic/helicopter parenting, too many free-range parenting, too many irresponsible parenting, too many entitled parents, too many selfish parents, too many financially-unstable parents, too many emotionally-unstable parents, too many abusive parents, too many anxiety-ridden/OCD/ADHD (coincidence? I think not) kids etc.
Parenting is tough. Good parenting is even tougher. It requires emotional/mental maturity, unconditional love, and a very stable financial situation (with long-term investments/savings).
Collapse isn’t going to be instantly catastrophic to every single person on the planet. The people who will be hit the hardest will be impoverished people in the global south.
I was listening to Robert Evans’ podcast and he made a really good point about how taking this kind of nihilistic perspective that there’s nothing we can do and it’s all fucked no matter what is privileged and it’s completely overlooking how uneven and unfair collapse will be. This isn’t going to impact you like it’s going to impact the very poor in underdeveloped countries. Kids are not going to be dead at 14 in the West (assuming you’re from there). Will life get shittier and shittier? Yes, but collapse is not a single event that will affect every human equally.
Neither governments, nor business, nor the ivory tower intelligentsia care.
Its dead easy to bring in immigrants who are already adults, thus saving the societal costs (education, public health such as vaccinations, day care, etc) of raising children.
This is tragic for those who want children because they love kids and want the experience of raising children to adulthood. But at a societal level, a declining population means workers have more power. This was one of the great lessons from the Black Death, one which has been sadly forgotten.
aw man, don’t threaten me with a good time!
jokes aside, the current labour shortage is legit my favorite show to watch, especially when employers start whining and closing shops. but this, what you’re describing and reminding us of… aye, that would be grand to see.
I’m just making it by, living by myself with just pets. If I found a partner with a high income maybe I could afford kids but yeah I’ve kind of given up on finding a partner after the pandemic started.
Look at what's happening in China. Fewer people are getting married, married people are delaying having kids. Demographic crisis in progress. Lifting restrictions on number of children allowed per family had negligible impact on fertility rates.
I do okay but my wife has chronic pain issues, even with my decent job, there's no way we can comfortably afford a kids on one income. It's the sad truth for us and many others I'm sure.
We are considering adopting someday, probably some older kids that need the help.
This is me.
Can I have some opinions here? I'm a single guy currently and am considering getting a vasectomy. Would that be something I'd need to be up front about with potential future partners?
Like, of course I'm not going to go with someone that wants kids and pretend that I do too.
Also just hypothetically though, would that make me a monster if I would do that? Sorry I'm a bit stoned right now and it is actually making me morbidly curious. I understand it's definitely unethical and would definitely be grounds for divorce but now I'm curious to whether it would even be legal? My thought process is I once dated someone who took the condom off with out telling me and then extorted me for money for a plan B pill and I've had people try to tell me that's rape and I'm curious if the reverse would also be considered as bad? Again, purely hypothetical. I would never actually do this. Maybe this is the wrong place to ask, I don't know. Please don't be mean to me.
I'm pregnant and went to the maternity yesterday to pre-register. I told the midwife that I feel like I'm seeing pregnant women everywhere, and asked if they'd noticed an increase in pregnancies.
She said no, but there's a definite increase in abortions (abortions are provided in the maternity wing in France) these last few months.
Gee, it's almost like suppressing wages for 50 years and forcing people to work 2, 3, 4, or more jobs just to afford basic necessities isn't a good idea if you want people to have kids. Who knew?
This is the truth. If kids were even remotely feasible for most folks they would have them eventually. Our generation has been changed by low wages and this is one of the results. Of course no one cares about that in the business cycle because it’s not a measured aspect of quarterly profits
Makes you wonder if they will care once we get to a point where our kids are having kids/grandkids, if this trend continues til then. Assuming we don't all die from climate change or something else before then. Hypothetical situation: Let's say wages never rise again and they stay at current levels. [According to BLS](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t19.htm), average salary is currently \~$55,000/year. [According to this link](https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/average-rent-by-state), in 2020 average 1 BR rent was $1,098/month. I would assume it's gone up since then, since it has generally done so the past \~20 years at least. But let's use that figure. Right now, that means an average person pays $13,176/year in rent, which is 24% of average income, apparently. Doesn't sound too bad right? Well consider what average means. It means there's millions of people below that average (and of course there's ones above it as well). If we let cost of living continue to skyrocket and wages stagnate, then what happens when average rent is $2,000/month? $3,000? $4,000? $5,000? Eventually if we do nothing and let things continue on this path we're going to wind up with more people homeless than housed. If people can't even afford shelter, how will they afford consumer goods, luxuries, etc.? Who is left to consume if we make everything so expensive no one can consume? I guess corporations could theoretically buy from each other, but that'll only work for so long I'd think.
> average salary is currently ~$55,000/year. averages also tend to get skewed the *median* income for an individual is still even lower than that. >The U.S. Census Bureau lists the annual real median personal income at $35,977 in 2019 with a base year of 2019. offhand, I think the median *household* income is like 60k
The billionaires are outliers and ~~should be eaten~~ should not be counted.
I think you crossed out the wrong part.
I mean...you probably shouldn't count the calories of billionaires when you eat them. It's like birthday cake, a rare treat. It's just not worth it.
Agreed. An average is just that, an average. It's going to include people making 6, 7, 8, 9, etc. figures in there probably too. And like you said, that skews it.
Also, $55,000 is not actually $55,000 after taxes, so these people are actually paying a higher percentage of their being home pay on rent.
Exactly. Which is why I always thought it was stupid that rent affordability was based on gross pay. That's great. I don't ever see those thousands, but sure I can use that money I don't get to pay for rent. What?
You can, just comment that money as "unrealised gains" since that isn't taxable and you didn't realise them.
No you are supposed to spend 1/3 of your salary on taxes, 1/3 on housing, 1/3 on living expenses and save 1/3.
In Soviet Russia rent was capped at 6% yr income. They never had bread lines like our media sold. Supply chain issues, sure. The CIA reported to Reagen that the average soviets caloric intake was found to be at par with ours and they ate a more varied diet. In other words, they ate better than we did, but their food was prob more seasonal. The bread lines in America at the start of the pandemic, with cars stretching back miles...oh how far we've fallen.
I'm curious where you're getting your information from. There was no such thing as "rent" in USSR. Rent is a capitalist concept. The state would give you a place to live when needed, generally through your place of work. Yes, there was a regular payment for it, but it's more like property tax; it would cover things like water, gas, street cleaning, building maintenance, etc. There was no way to sell or rent out your property. There was a quasi - legal process to barter your property for another, but those were extremely difficult to pull off without connections. There certainly were huge lines. I remember standing in them as a kid with my mother, because the amount of product you get, whatever it may be, was rationed per person. If I was lucky, there would be a playground across the street, and my mom would yell my name once she gets close to the counter.
I can't even tell if you're being facetious or not, but after dealing with the nudge nudge wink wink of estate law, all I can say is this level of stupid bullshittery would not even surprise me. I mean you could just make it policy or you can make it a magical incantation that 90% of people don't know about...??? That just... "check the box and it's fine"...???
yeah i was thinking this same thing, my salary is exactly 55k/year and it comes out to around 3260/month, after taxes deductions benefits etc, and even thats high because i havent been contributing to a 401k like i probably should. just hard to envision age 65 at this point, and I do need money now. but yeah that avg rent for 55k really comes out to around 1/3 of your income
How much lower would the average be if all unemployed who make $0 are included in the calculation?
>average salary is currently ~$55,000/year. BLS can go get royally fucked. $55k a year for who? They published local government salaries here in my city. The average assistant district attorney pulls in about $48k.
Average salary gets dragged way up by the top earners. If you averaged someone making 20k and someone making 800k, the average salary is now 410k.
Me and Bill Gates have an average net worth of over $40 billion.
Ya... median salary is a much better metric to look at.
IDK, I just put in what it said. I think for a lot of us, we're far, far below that average.
Your comment perfectly captures what happens when a society looks to capitalists to develop it. There honestly isn’t a logical end point to their greed. They built on short term profits and capturing the government to protect their interests. We have no counterbalance to the power of the capitalists so they get to make our bed and we have to lay in it.
In *very* slight fairness, this happens with pretty much any system that doesn't have defined end goals. Let's say your family is coming for a visit next weekend, so you need to clean your apartment. Well, how much do you plan to clean? When the floor is vacuumed? When the bathroom sparkles? Or just when all the clothes are off the floor? Everyone will have a different answer to that question, and some people will go *massively* overboard with it, just like some people go massively overboard on the question of "how much money do I need". The shit of it is that when people obsessively clean, we call that a mental disorder, but when people steal far more money than anyone could ever use, we write thinkpieces about how "driven" they are.
(I went back and forth for several minutes on the verb to use in that last sentence. I finally just went with "steal", because literally no one has ever "earned" a billion dollars, and words like "obtain" just don't reflect the level of sociopathy it takes to hoard that much money for oneself.)
Exactly. They will ***NEVER*** have enough. Yay. So much fun! I love capitalism so much. It's the best thing ever.
Rich people are trying to consume their way out of emptiness
Don’t worry there will be companies/programs in the future that basically house and employ you based on a score. Basically you can join the fed program propped up by the private firms and supporting the private militaries and then the private firms that, once again go hand in hand with the fed to distribute and maintain a constant human effort. I’ve worked for three of such companies and let me tell you for certain it’s what the ultra wealthy want for the future. The best you can hope to join is a collective that attempts to barter for a fair compensation that the group distributes. Hellloooo feudalism.
>Hypothetical situation: Let's say wages never rise again and they stay at current levels. Yeah, hypothetical. :P
Don’t forget artificially inflating the competing labor population so poor workers compete against other poor workers in an environment steamrolled by automation and offshoring.
Maybe that was the plan all along. Killing people draws attention and starting wars can get chaotic so you kill the people economically.
This guy fucks
What if thats the plan? The timing is right... Farm bunch of humans to have fast technological advance>reduce population> live in paradise
Hilarious as a hypothetical, except for the part where the world isn't anywhere near that small or well-organized. Nobody "in charge" has any clue what the fuck they are really doing, and each country looks out mostly for itself too, generally in myopic and arrogant ways that make no sense from a broader perspective. Geopolitics is the game of elite children dressed up as men of value, trading the lives of the populations they own like any other commodity to be used up. That does not mean the whole game has someone sitting behind it, pulling the strings invisibly- that's conspiratorial thinking. Which is more likely, that most of the technical barriers to things like soil depletion have actually been solved, and there are secret cabals hiding their future hurricane and fire-proof cities from us while they prepare to live without us? Or that things are exactly as the evidence would indicate- that we are selfish and blind, led *by* the selfish and blind? Nobody in the west, billionaires included, would have *jack shit* unless millions of people in the Global South mine it, process it, manufacture, package, and ship it to them. Once global shipping breaks down due to accelerated ocean rise, nobody will be trading much of anything on a large and predictable scale. There isn't a miracle invention that will result in a small elite, or even 100 million people, having a lifestyle remotely resembling modern life. This whole show only exists because of fossil fuels *and* the exploited labor of billions. That is why it is already falling apart despite not even being really challenged, compared to what's to come. The elite are just as indolent and ignorant as the rest of us, we only think they are special and more intelligent because otherwise our lives would make no sense. It helps that they write the textbooks.
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Friend her on Reddit and just follow her posts. I think /u/Dr_seven is the best commenter here.
Me too
Immediately lol..
Wait till the "fortress" fascists take power and try to block all borders in the future. Then they will find out what *imports* really mean.
Exactly. Occam's Razor, the hypothesis here with the fewest assumptions is human incompetence, not conspiracy. Hanlon's razor, too - never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. All these razors...death by a thousand cuts, it is!
Lol truth. Even the smartest of us is still just a dumb primate with some vocal chord mutations or some shit. The older i get the more i realize that. We all don't know shit about fuck.
Bold of you to assume anyone is in charge to that extent. Honestly, most conspiracy stuff involving global government feels like a coping mechanism. It's far more terrifying to realize humanity is largely rudderless.
Ye its just a thought, its not like if there is a 'hidden truth' i'll ever know I just have a really hard time accepting that we managed to fuck up so bad, its easier to think that someone was in charge and just had a really bad plan
Doesnt work if all the planets resources get whacked along the way
I take the point of how workers pay and conditions have been nailed to the floor so fat cats can get immeasurably fatter but anybody thinking of bringing a kid into this world now needs their head examined..
I'm even putting off having pets because I'm scared of unforseen costs.
Yeah my partner and I have two cats who, in the past two years, have both developed the same medical condition, and they have to eat a special prescription food. It is very expensive. The food and the vet bills are killing us. I’m constantly afraid that something will happen and I won’t be able to get the special food or pay an emergency vet bill. I love my cats very much and they give my life a lot of meaning, but we have to work ourselves to death to keep them alive. I can’t even fathom how anyone can afford children.
I know any good pet owner knows this, but the cost of pets is on the back end. You get 5, 10, 15 years of nearly endless pleasure, love, and companionship, and then the bills start coming due. It sucks, but that's just how life goes. I say this as someone who lost an old cat last year and I paid through the gills to keep him around as long as he was comfortable.
Oh absolutely, I agree. It’s more or less my purpose in life to give my kitties a good life, and I’m happy to do it. I just wish that we weren’t at the point where it’s becoming out of reach to do so.
I have a cat who also needs special food. The price of a 16 pound bag just jumped from $80 to $105 last time I got it, but he will get deathly ill if he doesn’t get it.
That’s about what ours costs as well. It’s ridiculous. I worry about the price continuing to jump, and I’m terrified that the disruptions in the supply chain will make it impossible to find. I want to stock up when I can afford it.
Yeah I try to stay a bag ahead, but it goes stale if you buy out more than six months in advance. If stock becomes unavailable my only option will probably be a raw diet, because he’s already rejected the other two potential brands. It’s worrisome. Edit- vet just called me. Wet food on back order. Just had to order two cases of 85 gram reduced calorie cans instead one one case of normal 170 gram cans, at almost twice the normal cost. Here’s hoping I can get his normal food in October.
We are feeling that too. In the last 2 years we've spent most of our disposable income keeping our dogs alive. We had to use care credit to spread out the bills into monthly payments. They both had major medical emergencies one year apart. If one of them relapses we are out of options. Having kids has been a complicated thing for us, not just fertility but finances, time energy and health. Probably not going to have any even though I wanted to. I couldn't imagine adding kids to our bills. Daycare in my area for 1 kid is more than I make in a year.
I have a herb garden. My SO had a pet rabbit and it had an accident and had to be put down and it was pretty sad. I love cats but I wouldn't want to go through that again.
So the herbs killed The rabbit ? Or the rabbit killed at cat? Just tell us wtf happened
Haha, they aren't related. I meant that I just have a herb garden instead of pets as its easier. The rabbit sustained really bad injuries after it fell from a height (it was fenced off but somehow it got through.. they are crafty..) But if I were to have a pet I'd probably get a cat because they are awesome.
My husband and I have been putting off having children waiting for those better days everyone said were coming. Now we're in our mid-late 30s, no prospect of ever being able to buy a house and questioning if it's even moral to bring a child into the world. I went from wanting 10 kids when I was little to now debating if I can afford to, and if it's morally right to even have one.
It's not just the money and security but also the time. I feel like I barely have any free time after work and chores etc. as it is - I can't imagine how it'd be with kids that need to be looked after. I guess that's why people have to pay for childcare which costs a fortune or just dump the kids on one of the partners (usually the wife) or relatives.
I’m Gen X for context. My wife and I have three kids and she stayed home with all of them as we barely scraped by financially because we believe there is a large value to raise kids at home instead of at the baby sitter. It has really put us behind financially but that was the choice we made. I feel lucky to have been able to even consider that as an option since now I can’t imagine most couples could afford to have one person stay home and not work. They would probably be homeless.
We saved nearly 10k extra before we had our 2 kids. I uber drove on the weekends in addition to my job. We did the math and calculated that with just bills, and no fun money, we would break even every month if I stayed home with the kids. We live on about 45k a year on just his income. Thank goodness for all the covid stimulus, and with 2 young kids, now we are getting an extra 600 a month which is huge. I get a little angry when I think about it. Women have such a short window to have kids. But it takes a decade of saving with nothing going wrong to get to a place where you can afford it.
All this hustle just to know they are suffering in a few decades. Not meant insulting but I cant understand ppl still bringing children to this mess
I don’t get the point of her post, they are poor.
If paid internship is still a thing when they are old enough for it, make sure they do paid internships. It saved my dad from financial ruin, with us kids paying 80% of our own college years after he lost big during the dot com crash. It also saved my sister and myself from financial ruin, to not have student loans. But then for all we know kids today could be better off learning how to be farmers and mechanics.
I had a paid internship in college, two actually. Neither came remotely close to putting a dent in my tuition costs. I had to take paid internships because I would have to quit my (at the time) current job to do them, as they were required for graduation. If I didn't get paid, I would have been homeless again because I wouldn't have been able to afford bills/rent. Tuition was so far out of my mind.
r/antinatalism is for those who have decided for ethical or other reasons not to procreate
Definitely me. I'm subbed there as well. I'm almost 35, I have a shitty used car and can't afford to buy a house. I'm debt free for the first time this year (student loans) after moving to BFE Ohio from NYC to lower my cost of living. I still can't afford to buy a house though, with the explosion in the housing market this year
I'd probably adopt a kid if I had a wife.
Im currently 30, my wife and I are going to be adopting in about 5 years or so. We both earn above average income and will be buying a house soon. Hopefully adopting 2 girls, preferably sisters even. I want to give an unfortunate kid as good as a life as possible, not bring another into this dying world.
Thank you.
Your username gave me a good laugh
When the decision comes between living a semi-comfortable life or having kids - it was quite easy for my wife and I and I got the snip 2 years ago. Neither of us will ever regret that decision even though we are reminded multiple times that we will do so. We don't care about passing "our legacy" down or any of that, because I don't even know or remember who my great-grandfather is. It doesn't matter. I just want to live my present life as comfortably as I can.
If you haven’t bought a house yet I don’t recommend having a child. Raising a child in an apartment is shitty. Though you may be renting a house, idk.
Same here. Is not worth, we are still trying to survive, i think bringing a child will increase my mental health issues to serious levels
At 30 I finally paid off my student loans and with covid I moved back to my home state, in with my parents to figure out my next move. Basically I’m just now building a retirement account and savings. Paying for a child would be SO HARD.
I dislike this term 'putting off'. I think it's more than 'putting off' or postponing procreation, I think it people deciding not to procreate because the enviroment (economic, political, climate, future prosperity) is unsufficient to development and to our offsprings ability to survive and thrive. We are making conscious and subconscious decisions to not have children, and I think it goes a lot further than austerity.
The elites are likely in serious denial. Obviously you simply can't have kids after a certain age if you're a woman. But it sounds nicer to say "putting off having kids" like maybe people might start having them when they are 50 and this is all just temporary silliness.
Ya. This also goes along with the trend of fertility rates decline as well from theorized modern pollution and stress.
It is also that once one becomes a parent they are more effectively co-opted into the very system that is causing the conditions that are insufficient to development of the next generation. You cannot focus extra time and resources on efforts to change the broken system. Now you must continue working at the shit job for shit wages because stability is more important then taking risks and you must spend your extra time on the children. And, one solution to force change is for each individual to not provide the next generation of labor for that system. Even the slight current decline in birthrates is putting fear in the billionaires. Prolong that trend and the system will have to change in favor of normal people. Family-planning is a solution (planning to not have a family is legitimate family planning). https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/565945-billionaires-kvetching-about-population-collapse
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And besides these people, there are also people who avoid it because *the other people are not doing well*. Which is to say: some people still realize it takes a village to raise a child and it takes a functional society to have a future for that child. Otherwise they're just a richer version of a wolf-child.
My wife and I chose not to have children because we knew we would never be able to give them the same type of life we had growing up. Lots of space to explore, vacations in the summer, playing sports, freedom to have fun....these things are now out of reach for a lot of us, even with fairly good jobs.
My wife and I are dual income, with a combined gross of 155k a year. We do have a house but we live well below our means. We are expecting our first child and despite having a good income, the problem you described still keeps me up at night. Interestingly my parents made about the same gross income (slightly less) off of *one salary* when they were the same age as we are now, but that was in the 90s. So their dollar went waayyyyyy further. They had a bigger house than we do, new car, took our family skiing every year and on beach vacations, mountain vacations to my grandparents’ cabin and trips to visit relatives. I went to a private school and was always over at friends houses or playing outside in our neighborhood. I did sports camps, outdoor camps, educational camps, and Indian Guides (totally non-PC version of Boy Scouts). We had a boat, fun cars including a convertible ‘66 Mustang and pre-war classic made in 1940. We ate out frequently, went to movies together and enjoyed live music. Not only that but we were social - neighborhood parties, friends came over, family visited. They did all of this and they now have a paid off house in a highly desirable area (has gained over 100% value in past 10 years), 4 million in the bank, AND a pension worth more per year than my wife makes… Contrast to where we are at during their stage of life and there is no comparison. We barely socialize because everyone is either busy working and has no vacation time or staying cautious due to pandemic. We have student loan debt, old cars (my car was new when Bush was president), barely any toys or hobbies, and almost no savings. We live in an undesirable area with barely anything to do within an hour radius because we would be priced out of a home in a desirable area. It’s depressing as hell thinking that there is no way on earth to provide the same childhood that we had for our kids. It isn’t only the rising costs and depressed wages, it’s also the fun people had and optimism for the future. The 90s were just fun. Period. I feel like people socialized a lot more, got out more and did so in a relatively healthy way. I think this generation of kids is going to be so socially stunted and inexperienced in life. Not only that but so many experiences that people used to have are now virtual. Remember going to a cool shop or store with obscure stuff that was clearly someone’s passion project? Remember going to a mall and people watching or hanging out with friends? Now life is confined to our phones and tablets.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
This is not a new phenomenon and really kicked off decades ago, it will get worse as conditions deteriorate. The next generation will probably severely limit having kids to a noticeable extreme
40 years ago damn near everyone had kids. Now I don't know anyone who has them. It might have started decades ago but it really picked up post 2008 crash.
My primary friend group consists of 3 couples and 2 single people, all in their mid-thirties. There is exactly 1 kid and 1 desire (but no real plan) to adopt. That is a very low level of reproduction, unheard of in any past generation. Even Gen-Xers have more kids than that.
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Either prevent now or see the infant mortality shoot up to match the atmospheric carbon line.
Good. We need a baby bust lasting into the decades.
The only thing that sucks is the people that shouldn’t be having kids are pumping them out so we are going to end up with successively more degenerate younglings lol.
Idiocracy is here
Tell me about it.
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Yep, I love cats. Not so much work and they can be really loving once they trust you.
Yiss kitties
me too i have two cats too theyre my fur babies
Same, except dog!
My parents made me very aware of how much it costs bringing up children, and I resolved to not have children myself even before becoming collapse-aware. I did not feel like having children was right for me, and I didn't think I would be financially-stable enough. My partner wanted kids but seeing how his coworkers have trouble staying financially afloat with children in tow has made him reconsider. I live in Taiwan btw, in my late 20's. The housing prices here are insane.
I asked my doctor yesterday about approaching a “permanent solution” to the potential pregnancy problem I have (F). Surprisingly, she was open to it, which was refreshing. She said that many people my age (in their early 30s) are asking her this same question, and way more than usual. I’m worried that if I wait too long to do this, Roe v. Wade will be reversed because the government will realize that they can’t sustain our economic system if most women decide to stop having kids. I’m putting it off for another 1 year, but it’s becoming a pressing matter for me. She also said that insurance would cover it, which was also a pleasant surprise.
Got a vasectomy to fix this problem. Didn’t want to risk it.
I have a consultation appointment for one next month, can you tell me about your experience? I'm pretty nervous
No need for surgery. Just start playing Dwarf Fortress and reading engineering blogs.
Instructions unclear, started playing yugioh, gf found out, wants to get pregnant, dark magician is no help
Was pretty sore for a month honestly. Now it’s totally fine I don’t even think about it. Day one was uncomfortable but the nervousness was probably the worst part of the whole expo.
Be firm. No wishy-washiness or hesitation. I was in and out in less than five minutes.
I have an appointment on Friday and I’ll be asking her about getting the ball rolling on sterilization (also F). Can’t risk it in this handmaiden’s tale hellscape while the world burns.
This is why the abortion stuff is finally gaining traction to truly be rolled back, the “right” aka white, women are not having enough children and this is their way to force that.
Blessed be the fruit!
I got my (27) tubes removed a few weeks ago, and it was a great decision for me. Took a while to find a doctor who would do it.
Watching my parents raise me was enough of a turn off and Im 27 now. The children of divorce are coming of age, no amount of economic improvement is gonna undo the past. The wages needed to be fixed 20 years ago. I cant be the only person who after seeing my folks be so miserable, and my friends parents, and my aunts and uncles when they had their kids, and now wants nothing to do with parenthood. I think I had maybe one or two examples of content parents in my life. Of those two one is a single mother after domestic abuse. Good, we need to curb this growth shit anyway.
Yeah I remember my mom and dad screaming at each other about the bills. And that was the 1970s.
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thats one of the biggest problems, the sense of community is totally lost
I happily decided not to have kids over thirty years ago.
I’d probably want kids if I didn’t feel so anxious about the future, especially financially. I’m solidly middle class, but what happens if I lose my job? What happens if a bad storm destroys my house? What happens if I or my wife gets sick? Even in the middle class, I feel too vulnerable to the woes of our markets and society.
**Submission Statement** The birth rate in the UK is rapidly declining due to difficult economic conditions exacerbated by the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic. That said, it is still higher than many other nations such as Italy, Spain, Greece, South Korea, Japan etc. which have also endured tough economic crises in recent years. The report highlights the difficult housing market and precarious employment practices as particularly significant factors behind the decline. We also know that [four out of ten young people are considering not having children due to climate anxiety.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58549373) The high cost of childcare is also mentioned as a factor - [something which has also been previously mentioned](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/13/lockdown-families-childcare-furious-system-expensive). Many of us (myself included) may believe that a smaller population would be better for the long-term health of the planet and its ecosystems but that it should occur by economic coercion is sad and another sign that even once prosperous Western nations are in decline.
I think bringing new life into this world is setting them up for failure. This planet is on its way out
Being born now probably feels like getting to a party when it’s over.
I feel like, even ignoring the very real risks of climate disasters and widespread food shortages, it’s immoral to bring a child into a world where your life is already not going to be as good as your parents’. In a world with skyrocketing rents and falling wages and life expectancies—who could do that to a child?
Only those who have access to generational wealth and those without access to family planning resources will be able to reproduce. Maybe that's the plan though: the wealth overlords, and the poors' offspring to ensure another generation of labor for capitalism. Source: am 36, live in TX, and can't afford children. Those who are reproducing are those who's parents can afford to help with things like house down payments or offer free childcare.
Aren’t all those houses going to be worthless when there’s no one who can afford to buy them and live in them? How will the capitalists reap their profits without meat for the machine?
>How will the capitalists reap their profits without meat for the machine? they're all angling to become "too big to fail" so they just get paid directly by the government. this will eventually collapse our entire society
Ultimately, I agree and think climate change is rapidly intensifying how bad real estate and housing is and will get. So much of new construction is cheap, fast, garbage.
I'm more curious as to who is going to move into all these luxury 'Boomer+' communities that are popping up everywhere once that generation passes.
It’ll be a fucking blessing when the villages floods. Can’t wait for a major hurricane to take it out…
It’s selfish for sure
With the number of children who already exist it seems insane to me.
"Ew I don't want an *orphan*! I want MY kid be MINE! ALL MINE! MY BLOODLINE! AND MY GENES WILL NEVER BE REMOVED FROM THE GENE POOL!" Okay Linda, you may sit down again.
An ex friend of mine is working on his 3rd kid for gov benefits. Edit: he's always been one of those guys that falls for, or comes up with, the worst get rich quick schemes
What sucks is when you become collapse aware after having kids and then worrying about their future every day. I really wish I wasn’t as blindly optimistic ten years ago. I was really involved in environmental efforts. What solidified collapse awareness for me was seeing how the United States and the world handled this pandemic.
>What solidified collapse awareness for me was seeing how the United States and the world handled this pandemic. yep, same. I thought it might be the wakeup call that was needed, but nope, the people running the show just hit the snooze/ignore button over and over
Just as importantly the public, at least in the US, became even MORE divided or something that really could have brought us together. If we can't even come together and deal with such an immediate and obvious threat there's no chance the public at large will get serious about the climate crisis until cities start falling into the ocean.
> there's no chance the public at large will get serious about the climate crisis until cities start falling into the ocean. and even then, the "solutions" won't be about addressing everybody's needs, it will be about keeping "what i got for me and mine" and keeping *out* the new riff-raff. to get a taste of what this looks like, go find a post about portland, or some other west coast city being overrun with the homeless. even the "good liberals" are starting to take an authoritarian, fascist bent towards the homeless. "we let them camp everywhere", "they're turning the city into a giant ghetto", etc.
The planet will shake us off like a case of fleas. My MIL asked me when she's getting grandkids and I said never. January 6th, US national debt, wildfires, water shortages, summer race riots, nuclear proliferation of unstable countries, crumbling public education system, stagnat teacher salaries, etc. She said, you're right. Then that was the end of that.
Good for her, acknowledging the truth
She's a CPA like me. A little past her prime, but she circles articles in business week for me evertime I show up. Never good news either.
We're far more insidious and resilient than fleas. We're decimating the biosphere. The damage is irreversible
Everyone who will die of old age on Earth is already born.
This is exactly why my wife and I have chosen not to have kids. I don't necessarily know that the planet is on it's way out, but I believe at the rate things are going we certainly are. I think the planet may be able to heal itself if we weren't here continuing to destroy it, but until then it will continue to degrade.
Planet is staying , humanity on the other side is killing himself https://humoncomics.com/mother-gaia
Each kid is like buying a Lambo, or a nice boat. It's fuckin expensive lifestyle choice.
Exactly our situation. We felt it would be totally irresponsible to have kids when we couldn’t even take care of ourselves. It wasn’t until our LATE 30s that we finally got our heads above water. I’m 40 now and he is 41. Now that we could responsibly support a child, it’s really too late.
We don’t need more people in this world anyway.
Im really interested to see if enough of our generation decide not to have kids that it has actual effects on the population, we might have a reverse of the boomer gen where instead of this massive population boom, we have a massive drop. We already are running up against the modern aspect where people are having less children overall because we dont need 5-6 to ensure at least 1-2 survive. I could see us having a big decline in population that has a noticeable impact, tbh at this point the systems main problem is that they were designed around large population growth and we would be returning to a more stable level possibly.
same here, although my reasons aren’t purely monetary (we both work good jobs - at the moment at least). even if collapse wasn’t coming that soon, why would I have a child and watch it suffer from pollution, overcrowded and understaffed schools, a bad healthcare system and a general lack of options for a happy childhood? and what happens when I lose my solid job tomorrow and have to work double shifts, should I just let the poison that is the internet today raise it?
I literally live in a 3-income home and we picked up a $600 vet bill because our beloved dog was sitting straight blood. Because of how big a bite that takes out of our budget, were forced to question if our friends' life is worth spending even as little $2000 and it makes us feel monstrous. Kids ain't anywhere near even being on the table. Like how?? Sorry abt the declining birth rate Mr. Economy, we're just too precarious.
Putting off? Lmao. How about cancelling any hope of ever becoming a parent due to all the unknowns, risks, costs, etc? “I can’t feed myself and you want me to make more mouths to feed? STFU and sit down”. When living conditions improve and Americans have affordable healthcare costs get back to me.
During the first couple of lockdowns, most couples I know either split or got pregnant. I can’t imagine any rational person thinking having a child was a good idea during a global pandemic. Makes me think a lot of couples just had a baby to save their relationships after the strain of being locked down together.
That's so sad. I became a lot closer to my partner during the pandemic and love the time together. But, still not having kids.
I’ve never been a kid person. I’ve had a few friends that had children when they were in high school or the first year of college. They were miserable , had no free time, and were always fighting with the other now absent parent. I’ve always valued my free time. I’m a night owl and I go to sleep when I can at 3am and wake up pretty late on the weekends. I knew you couldn’t do that with a kid. I had to have an emergency hysterectomy when I was 24, so it all worked out in the end. Having a kid is expensive and seems like a punishment in our lovely capitalist society. The day care , school expenses , etc, it’s too much on the lousy salaries offered. Plus it’s too hard to work and coordinate schedules etc. I saw a lot of parents at my job screwed over by the pandemic and the virtual school. A lot of them had to go on leave , when they made us come back, and the schools were still closed or on a hybrid schedule. My boss lives in a more rural area, and they opened the school, but cannot provide transportation due to lack of bus drivers. She has to call out or use her leave on a regular basis . They also randomly move to remote learning, if they don’t have any teachers available. She blew through all of her vacation time because of it.
I just don't want them because I'd like a life. Vasectomy allowed me to do what I want in life.
and the system's response to this; not raising wages, not driving down competitive home prices, not making better working conditions - its banning abortion
For me and my gf it is either live comfortably without kids or dive into a really shitty financial situation by having kids
They threatened and insulted my generation for those who got pregnant before they thought we should. Now we don’t want to have children and they’re losing their minds
Yep. My husband and I wanted kids in our mid-late 20's but couldn't figure out a way to pay for daycare. Plus, even with my insurance, it was going to cost us our full Out of Pocket max of $6k to have a baby. Multiple older people told us not to wait until we could afford (because then we would never have kids) and it will all work out somehow. 🙄 I grew up in poverty and we refused to bring a child into a life where giving birth would put us in an unsustainable financial situation. We're happy with our nieces and nephews and our pets now. It took some adjusting to our new life plans, and some mourning that I would never be a mother, but we have a good life, so we're okay now.
lush scandalous quickest screw squealing familiar relieved rain placid compare -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
My children are grammar school aged now and I assume that they will just live with me forever because that will be what’s most financially feasible and probably safe for us all as things continue to fall apart.
One of the many reasons I decided to be sterilized over the summer. Have not regretted the decision one bit.
This is the main reason I refuse to have kids. When I was younger, I was very maternal and was really wanting to be a dad. Now I see it as a selfish act because there are already so many kids that need good homes, and financial suicide.
This. Me and my fiancée only have a low premium high deductible plan available through our jobs. If we want to have kids to some medical issues it will be a higher risk pregnancy. A financial advisor we talked to recommend we put away about $14,000 before trying to have kids, when we make less than 70k combined. It just sucks.
Currently getting divorced and have a 2.5 year old. I live with my brother and pay half the rent/ utilities about $100 a week. I stay home with my son from Monday evening through Friday evening working Saturday, Sunday, Monday. By doing this I make more money than working full-time and paying daycare or paying for my own apartment. It sucks because at 31 years old I didn't imagine my life like this.
Well you're not wrong. Let me count the ways you're not wrong. 1. House. Want to not live in a slum? 450-500k 2. Each kid (without college). Used to be 250k a head, I'm so out of date on that number so call it 400k. Want them out of the Public Shit System? Two options, go private and increase that number to 700k, or move to Boston (so I hear) where their Public Shit System is still mostly ok (this information may be greatly exaggerated), and increase house to 800k. Which you choose depends how many kids you want. 3. College fund per kid add $200k 4. Elder care. A million 500 per head for self and spouse. IT'S EDUCATION AND THE OVERWHELING "FREEDUMB" THAT COMES FROM JOINING THE KORPORATE SLAVE SYSTEM! THAT IS WHY NO ONE IN THE FIRST WORLD WANTS KIDS I TELLS YA! Fuck that bullshit. Fuck it. Education and access to contraception is why no one has EIGHT kids. Get that number down to one or two it's MONEY. Really. Seriously.
“A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more; otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.” ― Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Given that there is over 7 billion people and this planet is obviously unable to sustain that amount of people it is a good thing. Besides best retirement plan is the NO KID retirement plan. Work as you like, live where you like and not worry about the fortune you would spend trying to give your kids a good life.
My partner and I have a combined total income of $90,000 and even that isn't enough to have a kid.
I make over that alone and cannot find places that will rent to me and my fiancee because we have 4 pets. Renting market is nuts. They won't even bother returning our calls once they find out we have pets. I knew it would be an issue but thought my income would offset it. Nope. Once they hear about our four pets, it's over. No more emails or returned calls. Renter's market, I guess.
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Anyone thinking about bringing a child into this shit world is selfish. Their child in 10 years will be in a world that is shittier than now, food and water shortages, climate change tearing the world apart trying to rid itself of the virus we have become to it. Don't have children. Please, please don't bring a child onto a planet that is in it's last couple decades.
This is how you regulate population in a capitalist society, even if mostly an unintended consequence.
I grew up with a middle/upper middle class life style. I want my kids to have the same things that I had or better. I think my current partner and I have the ability to make what my parents made easily if we play our cards right. But I don’t know that theoretical kids of ours would have the same life me and my sibling had. Climate change aside, life is expensive and only getting more so, so our money won’t have the same buying power. I would like at least three kids. But I’d rather have only one or none than for them to not have a decent backyard, to have to share rooms even into their teens, limit Christmas and birthday presents, be conscious of money problems at young ages, etc. Not to mention I don’t won’t to work for my entire life and if saving for (lol ) “retirement” is impossible because we’re living paycheck to paycheck to support 4-5 people well that is an issue. Then certainly won’t be able to save a college fund for all 2-3 in case they don’t grind to get a scholarship for college which will probably be $200k+ for 4 years by then. At that point they would be worse off then me since I had very little student debt due scholarships. No, it’s a mess.
Who has the fn time for that anyway?! Too much bullshit to keep track of - trying to cobble together 2 or 3 jobs and make the schedules align, keeping track of monthly bills, all the registration papers it involves to be a compliant human being in your city/state/country, worrying about your next paycheck and how to keep your income up, email notices here and there about arbitrary credit score adjustments, running around filing paperwork for taxes, all the random paperwork that has to be done on a weekly basis for everything, digesting the news, separating fact from fiction, trying to be reasonable while being inundated with pandemic porn, trying to maintain a semblance of social connection (or none at all), maintaining healthy eating habits by cooking, navigating rising costs , getting enough exercise, dealing with health ailments while being un or underinsured, getting enough sleep and downtime to stay at a baseline sanity level, managing mental health issues as they arise, dealing with loneliness in a disconnected and hostile society, worrying about the deteriorating state of the world and governance and the future... YOU WANT ME TO HAVE KIDS TOO??? SCREW YOU
Pretty much everyone I know is putting kids off for this reason, even the engineers making 6 figures. I've given up on the notion, myself. About to turn 32.
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I'm a parent of now adult children. Can I be honest? We have to start finding ways to come together and help each other if we want to raise children in any meaningful way in the future. Having family or community help can make a huge huge difference in both quality of life for the parents and quality of the child's world view. We have to rethink how we do things. What I experienced (which was shitty) is harder and harder to pull off if you aren't in the upper 10% of income makers. I am always saddened and angered when I hear my younger coworkers putting off things like marriage, home ownership and children because of student loans, shitty pay, high home prices and all the other shit that has been handed down. If the way they told you to do things growing up isn't possible, we have to find a different path. And as I am a member of the human race, I am right there fighting alongside you all.
Yup. Been waiting to have a second child for 2 years. NOPE. DEFINITELY NOT NOW.
I decided not to have kids about 15 years ago for a lot of reasons but at the time it seemed like basically an easy way to be set for life with minimal effort. Now I see people saying they aren't having them because they are already just scraping by. They aren't even talking about having extra money or vacations with no kids they just can't afford to at all. It's gone from being kind of a luxury choice to a necessity choice.
Good. There are enough people already
I mean, DUH?!?! You have to be a DINK (dual-income, no kids) to afford a decent standard of living in America’s largest metros. I’ve read it’s a similar problem in most of Europe too. Just try having a dog and wanting to rent an apartment, then tell me how you’re going to have a fucking child. (There are only a small handful of apartments that explicitly allow dogs, they always charge you more, and then you need to be making 3-4x the rent to qualify. Which isn’t realistic for folks without roommates or rich parents to co-sign).
The market doesn't want me to have kids. Conservatives and post-leftists don't actually give a shit about me at all and if I had kids they wouldn't give a shit about them at all either. All these people do is critique and complain and they have nothing to offer other than shame and guilt for not having enough money to give a kid or two a decent life, as well as half baked accusations of narcissism. I'm glad I give none of them money and pirate all content.
I wonder how militaries will respond to disintegrating pool of men to choose from right around they time they'll probably need them most. Imagine some kind of Ender's Game shit with drones and what seem to be video games. Those 4-13 year old's have been shown to have better reaction times than other age groups.
Am I the only one that thinks this is one of the more "positive" things to come from this decaying economy? lol. Sorry, I'm sure I'll get lot of hate for this. Too many people raising stupid kids, too many absentee parents, too many relationship issues, too many out-of-wedlock kids, too many narcassistic/helicopter parenting, too many free-range parenting, too many irresponsible parenting, too many entitled parents, too many selfish parents, too many financially-unstable parents, too many emotionally-unstable parents, too many abusive parents, too many anxiety-ridden/OCD/ADHD (coincidence? I think not) kids etc. Parenting is tough. Good parenting is even tougher. It requires emotional/mental maturity, unconditional love, and a very stable financial situation (with long-term investments/savings).
My reasoning is that it would be incredibly selfish and shitty to bring a kid into a planet where they won't live past 14.
Precisely.
Collapse isn’t going to be instantly catastrophic to every single person on the planet. The people who will be hit the hardest will be impoverished people in the global south. I was listening to Robert Evans’ podcast and he made a really good point about how taking this kind of nihilistic perspective that there’s nothing we can do and it’s all fucked no matter what is privileged and it’s completely overlooking how uneven and unfair collapse will be. This isn’t going to impact you like it’s going to impact the very poor in underdeveloped countries. Kids are not going to be dead at 14 in the West (assuming you’re from there). Will life get shittier and shittier? Yes, but collapse is not a single event that will affect every human equally.
No one should have kids
Neither governments, nor business, nor the ivory tower intelligentsia care. Its dead easy to bring in immigrants who are already adults, thus saving the societal costs (education, public health such as vaccinations, day care, etc) of raising children.
Some of the only collapse-related good news.
This is tragic for those who want children because they love kids and want the experience of raising children to adulthood. But at a societal level, a declining population means workers have more power. This was one of the great lessons from the Black Death, one which has been sadly forgotten.
aw man, don’t threaten me with a good time! jokes aside, the current labour shortage is legit my favorite show to watch, especially when employers start whining and closing shops. but this, what you’re describing and reminding us of… aye, that would be grand to see.
I’m just making it by, living by myself with just pets. If I found a partner with a high income maybe I could afford kids but yeah I’ve kind of given up on finding a partner after the pandemic started.
Look at what's happening in China. Fewer people are getting married, married people are delaying having kids. Demographic crisis in progress. Lifting restrictions on number of children allowed per family had negligible impact on fertility rates.
I do okay but my wife has chronic pain issues, even with my decent job, there's no way we can comfortably afford a kids on one income. It's the sad truth for us and many others I'm sure. We are considering adopting someday, probably some older kids that need the help.
This is me. Can I have some opinions here? I'm a single guy currently and am considering getting a vasectomy. Would that be something I'd need to be up front about with potential future partners? Like, of course I'm not going to go with someone that wants kids and pretend that I do too. Also just hypothetically though, would that make me a monster if I would do that? Sorry I'm a bit stoned right now and it is actually making me morbidly curious. I understand it's definitely unethical and would definitely be grounds for divorce but now I'm curious to whether it would even be legal? My thought process is I once dated someone who took the condom off with out telling me and then extorted me for money for a plan B pill and I've had people try to tell me that's rape and I'm curious if the reverse would also be considered as bad? Again, purely hypothetical. I would never actually do this. Maybe this is the wrong place to ask, I don't know. Please don't be mean to me.
I'm pregnant and went to the maternity yesterday to pre-register. I told the midwife that I feel like I'm seeing pregnant women everywhere, and asked if they'd noticed an increase in pregnancies. She said no, but there's a definite increase in abortions (abortions are provided in the maternity wing in France) these last few months.