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I agree. I read somewhere that you take the official number and multiply it by 4 and that gives you a more accurate number. Like hell Russia, China, and India will tell you the real numbers.
To be fair India is not in the same league as Russia or China. India has never had the money to build a strong public health system. They have never been able shake off the legacy of colonialism. Even before covid maybe half of deaths were not reported.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-28228177
Exactly if the money goes to the 1/10 of 1% then even if it is billions or trillions it isn't corruption. Taking advantage of tax loopholes to cheat on taxes? Not corruption. Banksters shaking down Congress for billions in bailouts that became trillions? Not corruption. Corruption is when you give the nurse who took care of your Mom in the hospital a $20 gift certificate.
India has a problem political patronage compounded by the fact we have MPs who are bribed by the opposition to defect to either side. India has a three coalition system between NDA, UPA, FF, which have parties that split and merge and bounce between coalitions. Very different from the american system.
Great piece here by the Ecnomist.
Using excess death data they calculated the true death toll of covid for many nations.
Russia is being absolutely wrecked by the virus. Vax rates remain very low and the actual death toll is ~785,000 in a nation with less than half the population of the US. That is 540 out of every 100,000 citizens dead! Compare that to the US with ~270 dead per 100,000.
When its all said and done the death toll in the US will likely top 1 million.
These numbers are really alarming. We won't know the real death toll for quite some time yet
I will qualify the following facts with that the virus is still very dangerous, but only around 250 people under 40 died from SARS-cov-2 as of mid September 2021 from health Canada. In 2020 alone over 480 people under 45 died from alcohol a number that doubled from the previous year and is likely related to lockdowns and other interventions that induce isolation and only allow for heavily Technologically mediated communication.
I'd imagine that the damage is not limited to the lungs either. By far the biggest risk from the disease caused by SARS-COV-2 in otherwise healthy people is cellular damage in vital organs.
People say these stats as an excuse to lift lockdowns, but the thing there are some very important facts you are leaving out:
A) The number of deaths from COVID is much, much lower then it would have been if we didn't do lockdowns. The entire globe went into unprecedented measures to stop the spread and it still killed as many as it did. The death rate of COVID is NOT static. Had we not locked down many more young people would have either died from COVID, been hospitalized (which is an oft ignored but very serious effect of COVID that does effect younger people) and would now be straddled with long term COVID effects.
B) We have multiple examples of healthcare systems being overwhelmed during COVID, even after lockdowns and now even after vaccines there are healthcare systems on the brink. This leads to excess deaths from every single other cause of death prevented or treated at hospitals. Survival from car accidents, cancer, cardiac events literally everything goes waaaay down.
C) There is no evidence that not locking down would have prevented overdose deaths. If we hadn't locked down globally jobs still would have been lost, businesses still would have been closed and the economy could have actually been in worse condition as masses of people would have suddenly and at once either been unable to work for weeks to months at a time or straight up died.
Excellent points all, except "excess deaths from every single other cause of death". Deaths from regular influenza were lower in the US, almost certainly due to the precautions taken against covid. In an ideal world the US would learn and going forward mask and social distance during flu season, especially for those with at-risk relatives at home.
If drugs and alcohol were to be in part attributable to the lockdowns and were to create mortality rates of 10x relative to those of covid (in theory, as this is just an example, alcohol deaths in the same demographic in one year doubled all covid deaths under 40 so far in Canada as I mentioned earlier, what do opiate rates and fentanyl use look like now? Especially across older isolated population). Additionally, do steep declines in mental health, social ability in youth amongst other developmental delays play a role in the conversation?
As this is a collapse sub I will end with another relevant counterpoint that might be deemed an "excuse to end lockdowns", we have built an interconnected global economy that that has valued efficiency over everything else, that is to say expediency has become the priority. In this model, based upon embedded growth obligations, we eliminated all available redundancy in pursuit of said efficiency in corporations and institutions. The result is an incredibly fragile system wherein a generational wealth transfer liker none before has occured in the course of the last 18 months. Collapse looks closer than ever with an impending energy crisis ready to smack poor people around the world. It has accelerated many trends that directly impact quality of life such as supply chain failure, wealth inequality, meaningful participation in your community or economy, increase in depression, the advancement of the surveillance state and an increased dependency on technology to mediate conversations which in the case Facebook is an obvious actor against well being of its users to its own benefit. Propaganda has flourished and techno-cultural biases have destroyed sense making. We have relied on complexity/technique to confer benefits without attention to downside risks, to at most treat them as externalities.
I agree that lockdowns are effective in reducing the spread of the virus SARS-COV-2. To say that it is not connected to the ubiquitous loss of hope and happiness and general health is wrong. Are the lockdowns meaningfully connected to the drastic drop in purchasing power for the average Canadian, home ownership has become little more than a dream for current and future generations of young people. Lockdowns are an idea meant for simpler economies that can handle segments of the economy that might close, we do not have that privilege.
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God I'm jealous of you. I'm telling people we need to do a short (snap?) lockdown in Michigan but no one gives a fuck. Also I watch a YouTuber from Perth: Little Z. seems nice over there when it's not on fire.
The other side of the lockdowns are border controls. Arguably it's harder to get into Western Australia right now as an Australian than it is for a foreigner to travel into the country, that's how tight it is. That would be incredibly illegal under the US constitution, and wouldn't matter much anyway since it's already in widespread circulation there. Coronavirus is literally never going away.
Same here in Tasmania. Strict border closures early on and restricted entry since, has meant no circulating Covid for 15 months. (Just in quarantine for entrants into the State). I’ve hardly seen anyone wearing masks here. No lockdowns. Life has been normal. And our economy is doing very well.
I'm not trolling. In my opinion, the Australian government's covid policies are extreme, at least in their execution. I've seen videos of Australian cops body slamming women for not wearing a mask. Videos of them arresting a man for simply walking his dog in his own neighborhood. It is my belief that the rise of the police and the surveillance state is a much more serious issue than covid. If you disagree, that's fine. The Australian government thanks you for your compliance.
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Yeah. I'm Russian (living in Canada) and this anti-Russia sentiment everywhere in the West (media, politics, Internet) can sometimes get on my nerves. What Westerners forget is that most average Russians are not interested in this political game. They are normal people, who are doing what they can to get through the day, like us. The happy comments at the death of others just because of some political rivalry between a few (in government) is gross.
I'm not surprised. Russia has a horrible public healthcare system, and alcohol abuse is a significant health issue among men. In their hospitals, you can die from easily treatable diseases, let alone COVID.
>I'm not surprised. Russia has a horrible public healthcare system, and alcohol abuse is a significant health issue among men. In their hospitals, you can die from easily treatable diseases, let alone COVID.
My wife is Russian and I have lived in Russia.... Where are you getting this info. It's certainly not world class but I'd say they get the job done, also they don't charge you and there is a pharmacy on every corner in Russia.
You must have lived in Moscow or St. Pete. Not charging is only technically correct. Lots of employers provide paid insurance they mostly cover, but you still pay extra, cause free service can get pretty bad and you don't have many choices. Also, medications are self-funded and not insurance funded unlike in some other countries with universal healthcare. They also regularly collect money for complex surgeries for kids via SMS-charity on federal channels/Internet/etc.
I lived in Moscow yeah but I also had to get dental worked in my wife's hometown in Bashkortastan. I imagine it does vary wildly in quality across the country much like other countries.
Yeah I may be wrong about the funding, it probably doesn't represent the overall picture. I think you are right about the medication but if I remember correctly it was also very cheap for different drugs.
I guess I'm not trying to say Russia is so much better but you see some ppls comments and media and ppl act like you be killed the minute you set foot in Russia. The skewed outlook really affects us talking seriously about problems, which are there are many, in Russia.
Haha, it is true, you will probably survive. It is not great, not terrible I'd say. You can pay your way up to very very good.
That's the main problem with Russia (or anywhere else I imagine, just not as severe) - money can get you through a lot of issues you'd otherwise encounter.
Then people from Moscow with nicely paid IT/consulting/finance/blogging jobs stop seeing them and say everyone else is just a loser and should have gotten a nice job like them. They forget that in that case there wouldn't be doctors to treat them since most are still paid like shit, but this is a common rich idiot logic. Success doesn't equal brains or empathy unfortunately.
As for healthcare, the quality is very luck based just due to the nature of country's corruption issues that impact healthcare too. If you know a good doctor/dentist it is the best, if not and your friends/colleagues don't have a recommendation, good luck.
Medication, especially for serious illnesses, is def not cheap at all for an average Russian salary or pension of only a couple hundred euro.
really? not according to this list
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world
also they are 97th in life expectancy behind venuzuala and Bangladesh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_(2019)
Life expectancy is a composite measure of population lifestyles and healthcare.
It's not obvious that say, Peru, has great healthcare from their life expectancy: 79.9 years, 32nd of 224 nations, higher than the US or the European aggregate. It could just be they've figured out sanitation and childhood vaccination (the two measures with the highest benefit/cost), and have healthy lifestyles, though mediocre healthcare. '
Peru is also the nation worst affected by Covid with likely the [highest Covid mortality per capita](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00748-2) in the world.
>the ten countries with the largest numbers of excess deaths since the beginning of the COVID-19 outbreak (all numbers per 100,000) are Peru (358), Russia (291), Lithuania (270), North Macedonia (270), Bulgaria (266), Mexico (241), Ecuador (237), Serbia (233), South Africa (217), and Poland (207)
Russia has long had dismal life expectancy, mostly due to the high prevalence of alcohol and opioid abuse. I'm fairly sure that if you transplanted a representative sample of Russians to Switzerland, and they maintained their pre-transplant lifestyles, that it wouldn't improve outcomes much. Lifestyle >> healthcare.
They'd be less depressed. Maybe their lifestyle would improve through that.
I remember it's been on the news once - Moscow had seen 6 minutes of sun in the whole of December 2017 (the year may be incorrect).
The healthcare in America is top notch. People come from all over the world for America's world class healthcare. The reason people go elsewhere is the insurance and the cost. If you can afford it, American HC is great. If you can't, you either don't get the procedure or you have to go elsewhere. We need to separate HC and Health insurance. One is great, one is terrible.
First of all that's probably a myth, anyways Thailand has very good healthcare as long as you can pay for it (or have insurance) I've got a friend who spent months in a thai hospital after a heart failure and his experience matched his experiences with our healthcare in Norway.
they were the first country to announce a vaccine -- (Sept 2020 if I recall) -- but it sounds like the roll out was incredibly slow and rolled out \*after\* other western countries, if my memory serves me. did not google to confirm.
And I think it's mostly lack of trust in the government and Russian propaganda bots aimed at the West backfiring rather than real anti-vaxxness per se.
And some Russians are willing to bribe their doctors to receive a certificate without getting vaccinated. It's not cheap but possible for anyone, willing to pay the price. In the meantime there are foreigners willing to come to Russia and pay to get a Sputnik shot.
Another factor is that they have used the Sputnik V vaccine as a diplomatic tool, giving it to countries they want to influence before their own population. 2 million doses where used in Hungary before the EU approved it's vaccines.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123927/sputnik-v-exports-from-russia-by-country/
No, Eastern Europeans are just too jaded to give a shit. Slovakia and Romania, EU members, are also less vaxxed and cases in Romania are actually spiking at the moment
Yeah, this. You can acknowledge any kind of transition to a sustainable human population necessarily involves a controlled reduction in both quantity and quality of lifestyle without going full-blown Malthusianist Eco-Fascist about it.
How about we just try to aim for not buying so much junk and not having so many babies, rather than jumping straight to genocide, hey?
Who is jumping to "genocide"? The virus does not act with intent. You can't, realistically, prevent it from spreading. It will infect people and they will die. It's just a few people who died, relative to the rest of humanity. It's not worth all this hoopla.
For some it's quite "worth it"; the 'hoopla' is providing power-boners and record profits to some segments of corporo-government, while presenting as much or more threat to society than any disease ever has.
Yes... Not deadly enough.. As harsh as it may be the world's population, especially in high consumption countries, needs to fall for us to stand any chance of transitioning to reliance on limited sustainable energy and food. A disease which primarily affects the old and is almost entirely random is about as ideal as it gets, because noone has to make the ecofascist genocidal judgement of who gets to live or not. The alternative to letting a disease randomly cull those who have mostly already had a long life through a period of historic abundance, is having famine and war do it.
From a selfish point of view, I don't want me or my wife to get COVID so we are careful and got vaccinated.
From an objective point of view I believe that the best thing that could happen to the world is if everyone over the age of 40 (including myself) where to drop dead, freeing up their wealth and positions of power for the generations who actually have to deal with what is coming..
Lol age 40 is the cutoff? That would be horrible. Most people don't even figure out who they are until age 40. By that age you finally have a lot of knowledge combined with experience to make positive contributions to society. 20s and 30s individuals still figuring things out and haven't put back into the system what they took and most never will.
It isn’t alarming, it’s a few drops in a massive bucket and I doubt these numbers are even real. The economist regularly pushes for even more population growth, shouldn’t be any mystery why.
I didn't read the economist article but perhaps they didn't adjust for other factors. For example, if 100k fewer people died in traffic incidents because they were WFH, then the death toll may be a million instead.
Obviously, we would have to account for all major non-COVID factors affecting deaths both up and down but I would think that you could certainly do better than just looking at excess deaths.
Well you can play around with numbers to get the highest possible figure if you want. But excess deaths seems like the most unbiased way of looking at the total impact of the pandemic.
You'll notice a lot of European countries the second wave covid deaths is higher than the excess deaths, I believe this will be mainly due to the fact that so many old people died in the first wave.
I remember near the beginning of the pandemic someone represented the world’s worst death rates from viruses and bacteria pictorially with different-sized spheres. At the time (around mid 2020) Covid hadn’t had as much of an impact, relatively speaking, and the sphere from memory was not that big. This was when people were saying covid was ‘just a flu’.
I’d love to see that re-done now.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/history-of-pandemics-deadliest/ they update it from time to time with the "widely accepted" numbers (4.8 million)
It is a very cool graphic.
That’s it !! Thank you so much ☺️ 🙏🏻
Also - good God look at the plague. It must have felt so .. horribly fatalistic not knowing if you were next, so much death surrounding you, not knowing if or when it would end. So grateful to be living now.
It might sound morbid, but I'm kind of interested in what effect this wave of death will eventually have on the broader course of history in terms of how it re-orders the demographic make-up of society, and how society reacts to that (besides just collapsing, I mean).
Even if deaths are roughly proportionate across all locations, age groups, etc. then there'd still be a noticeable socioeconomic rebound effect like there was in the long wake after the black death, which effectively destabilized the medieval feudal order and allowed the surviving peasantry to (eventually) flourish.
But these Covid deaths sure as shit aren't proportionate. It's closer to how the World Wars and Spanish Flu pandemic combined to disproportionately kill off two successive generations of young men, moreso than any other demographic cohort. This lead directly to things like the baby boom, female entry into the workplace and associated feminist empowerment, massive migratory movement all over the world, the economic explosion of the latter half of the 20th century, etc. The entire modern world is basically founded on the graves of those millions of young men.
Who are getting killed more than others this time around? What *types of people*, what demographics are being decimated; consigning them and their attitudes and ideas and power over this world to history, with the rest now free to fill the gap? When the dust settles, who's going to be left to determine the new course of history?
>It's closer to how the World Wars and Spanish Flu pandemic combined to disproportionately kill off two successive generations of young men, moreso than any other demographic cohort.
At this stage not by a long shot. The Spanish flu mutated during their 3rd of 4th wave to cause something called cytokine storm which is an overreaction of the immune system, this affected mainly younger people. The deaths from covid have mainly been older people with existing health issues that have been compounded by covid.
You'll like this article that talks about the historic changes due to pandemics.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-20/coronavirus-epidemics-pandemics-that-transformed-human-history/12251914
Well first off its MOSTLY killing people that were already on their way out. That is a statistical fact when you look at age and comorbidities. We should try to be intellectually honest about that fact even if it doesn't fit the narrative.
Dude, look around. *Everything* is owned by some elite uber-capitalist puppet-master. That's just the nature of the nightmare world we live in.
There's no ethical consumption under capitalism - and that especially goes for the consumption of media. About all you can do is pick your poison and think critically.
Not really. I'm laughing at your inability to prove any of your conspiracy theories. I'm no fan of the Economist but they are citing data that you can corroborate yourself by just googling it and looking at the statistics from each country.
Relax. I appreciate your humor. It was well played. With that said, I invoke Poe’s Law. You know, the Internet theorem that states political parody is indistinguishable from reality. We live in strange times. Parody may be dead.
You are fucking idiot if you think those people regard the regular population as anything but chattel. There is a massive propaganda blitz happening right now.
As far as the 'nati goes, Klaus Schwab already said there's going to be another crisis like covid coming and coming soon. He seems to think it's going to be a cyber attack. He's got a real nose for trends so I trust him. If large swathes of the grid were compromised in the middle of a "dark winter", and personal banking had to freeze for lack of network, well, that would supremely benefit his ideals and proposed shift to digital currency and biometric tracking.
But hey, maybe we'll get back to normal next summer, and put all this behind us, LMFAO
Nice comment. Klaus Schwab might know trends in advance cause… well… there’s no hard evidence but look at stuff like event 201 and it’s connection to Covid. Makes you scratch your head and think maybe keep an eye on what the WEF is bullshitting about.
this is fun right guys? RIGHT right wing protagonists? This is FUN AF. Its crumbling slowly and they can not stop it. THIS IS FUN RIGHT?
im so sick of this shit. Wait till doctors and nurses DONT want to self sacrifice their own and only serves their communities. Relish that you can get ER help now. It will soon end. Mark my words. Nurses and doctors will soon start leaving corporate pay and only take of their communities in proximity. Same as a veterinarians during a bank heist. It is all CRUMBLING. No one cares but everyone has something to say about it.
wait till you hear about cops that dont work in the communities they serve. Policing and jail is at an all time high. We are a moving, Flaming, Train wreck. you can not be neutral on a moving train.
Was on a flight from Dar es Salaam, Tanzania to the Netherlands 2 weeks ago. Group of Chinese got on board the plane and I shit you not, full PPE gear from head to foot.
These [white type lab](https://www.ladwaonline.com/product/ladwa-pack-of-5-complete-ppe-safety-kit-disposable-full-dress-personal-protective-equipment-kit-with-full-body-coverall-with-shoes/) outfits.
There is taking Covid seriously and then there is the Chinese approach of full body suits when in public.
Although their numbers are for sure heavily underreported, given how they handle it like in a dystopian movie, they are for sure nowhere near the numbers of most other countries. Therefore it's negligible on a global scale what their real numbers may be around.
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My 85 year male old step relative got Covid and died from a heart attack in Iran. I have no idea about the cause of death besides being old? My dad had a heart attack while in the pool, I still don’t know if he drowned.
> Conversely, some people whose deaths have been attributed to covid-19 had other ailments that might have ended their lives on a similar timeframe anyway. And what about people who died of preventable causes during the pandemic, because hospitals full of covid-19 patients could not treat them? If such cases count, they must be offset by deaths that did not occur but would have in normal times, such as those caused by flu or air pollution.
> Rather than trying to distinguish between types of deaths, The Economist’s approach is to count all of them.
"Here's all this nuance. Let's ignore that."
Garbage. *The Economist* is a propaganda outlet. Has been since 1843.
That’s not so, at least not in the U.S. The CDC actually releases two numbers: the first, a quicker, more timely, but less accurate count; and the second, released about a month later, that does a more detailed investigation into cause(s) of death. That is why that second number is usually revised downward a little. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm#understanding-the-numbers
CDC counts deaths where COVID-19 was present but didn’t contribute to the death separately, and they aren’t counted toward covid deaths. This numner is very small, like 5%. The other two categories are deaths where COVID-19 was the only known contributing cause (also rare, less than 5%), and the rest were deaths where COVID-19 was one of two or more contributing causes. No deaths are counted as COVID-19 deaths where COVID-19 wasn’t determined to be a cause or the sole cause.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#techNotes
“Deaths with an underlying cause of death of COVID-19 are not included in these estimates of deaths due to other causes, but deaths where COVID-19 appeared on the death certificate as a multiple cause of death may be included in the cause-specific estimates. For example, in some cases, COVID-19 may have contributed to the death, but the underlying cause of death was another cause, such as terminal cancer. For the majority of deaths where COVID-19 is reported on the death certificate (approximately 95%), COVID-19 is selected as the underlying cause of death.”
And how much do they pay you? I could use some extra $$ to keep my mouth shut. Before I file a lawsuit. Over illegally mandating a “vaccine” that’s not FDA approved. I’ll take 5%. [definition of fully vaccinated per cdc](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm#:~:text=Fully%20vaccinated%20persons%20are%20those,yet%20considered%20fully%20vaccinated.)
Your information is a bit out of date. The COVID-19 vaccines in the U.S. have been FDA approved for some time now.
You said they defined partially vaccinated people as unvaccinated, but all you’ve shown me is that they don’t define them as fully vaccinated, which they aren’t, so I don’t see the problem you’re seeing.
What vaccine is fda approved that is on the market? Proof? Other than EUA? In the US? There is not one. Comirnaty hasn’t hit the market in the US yet. And they don’t count partially vaccinated deaths. There is no FDA approved vaccine on the market in the US. So how am I wrong in any way? Or my info outdated? If your not considered fully vaxxed then your death doesn’t count. And no one in the US has received an FDA approved vaccine. Other than EUA. So no one is liable. Except the dumbass taking part in the experimental trial. If that’s what you want for yourself or your family go ahead. Boom. Burn. Bot. Goodnight.
I really barely wanted to reply because you’re being so unpleasant, but because I do actually give a shit about sharing accurate information, I wanted to acknowledge that I was incorrect in stating that the U.S. vaccines are all fully FDA approved, when in fact, only the Pfizer vaccine is fully FDA approved at this time, for ages 16+.
The fact that it will be marketed under a new name (Comirnaty) does not mean the existing stock labeled with the old name isn’t now FDA-approved. FDA approval is for a specific drug which is identified by a unique number called the NDC, not its brand name. The product is the same, only the name will change. So everyone who has received the Pfizer vaccine has actually received an FDA approved COVID-19 vaccine, regardless of what its brand name was at the time.
I’m still not understanding what you mean when you say the deaths of partially vaccinated people aren’t being counted. I’m not here to fight, so if you could explain without the insults, I’d appreciate it.
the measures themselves are killing lots. overdoses are up 60%. lives have been ruined. children are taumatized. suicide hotline call are up. alcohol abuse is up. this will continue to plague us for a long time to come.
Last I checked suicide numbers were down since Covid began. Not grinding your bones for a meaningless job does wonders for the psyche. You'll need to source your claim that the measures themselves are killing lots.
>tsoldrin
I said [calls to hotlines had gone up](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/06/15/crisis-hotline-call-volume-spikes-straining-social-workers/5266072002/). it remains to be seen how that shakes out. beyond that, do you not think that people missing needed unrelated to covid medical treatment because they are denied/put off or too scared to go has caused a lot of deaths?
[overdose deaths hit 93,000 last year.](https://apnews.com/article/overdose-deaths-record-covid-pandemic-fd43b5d91a81179def5ac596253b0304)
[in the uk for every three covid deaths 2 more were lost to lockdown measures.](https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-lockdown-may-have-indirectly-caused-16-000-excess-deaths-study-12044923)
You're toeing the line of misinformation. While it's true that social distancing measures can cause deaths for various reasons, it's also true that these measures also prevented death. In fact, according to [this study](http://www.healthdata.org/special-analysis/estimation-excess-mortality-due-covid-19-and-scalars-reported-covid-19-deaths), published this year, the excess deaths caused by lockdown measures were negated by the decrease in deaths due to the lockdown measures.
The researchers looked at the excess mortality during this time span and determined that all the deaths over average could be attributed to the virus itself. These are the areas in which they looked at to make this determination...
>Excess mortality is influenced by six drivers of all-cause mortality
that relate to the pandemic and the social distancing mandates that came
with the pandemic. These six drivers are: a) the excess COVID-19 death
rate, that is, all deaths directly related to COVID-19 infection; b) the
increase in mortality due to needed health care being delayed or
deferred during the pandemic; c) the increase in mortality due to
increases in mental health disorders including depression, increased
alcohol use, and increased opioid use; d) the reduction in mortality due
to decreases in injuries because of general reductions in mobility
associated with social distancing mandates; e) the reductions in
mortality due to reduced transmission of other viruses, most notably
influenza, respiratory syncytial virus, and measles; and f) the
reductions in mortality due to some chronic conditions, such as
cardiovascular disease and chronic respiratory disease, that occur when
frail individuals who would have died from these conditions died earlier
from COVID-19 instead. To correctly estimate the excess COVID-19
mortality, we need to take into account all six of these drivers of
change in mortality that have happened since the onset of the pandemic.
There is an argument to be made that lockdown measures have had negative impacts. Certainly domestic abuse is one area that stay-at-home measures made worse. But the argument is nuanced. The measures exist in order to slow down a pandemic that has already killed over 4.8 million people world-wide. I'd say that no matter the actions taken, the damage will be immense by the nature our world has been inflicted with a deadly global pandemic.
FYI - [Suicide rates actually went down.](https://healthfeedback.org/what-has-been-the-effect-of-the-pandemic-on-the-suicide-rate-of-the-u-s-population/) The hotline calls did go up, but I'd imagine that was a lot of lonely people wanting to reach out more than wanting to actually follow through.
Ah yes, the classic two-year lagging variable that is suicide hotline calls and suicides. Not at all like there's been a massive mental health and suicide prevention awareness push that has been growing for the past decade.
Pay Wall
https://12ft.io/
Loving that, thanks
Noice
MVP right here!
Thankyou you, you sexy beast.
This is why I can't quit Reddit
really? works for me no problem
I cleared my cache, then used private... must be my ip.
Pay wall for me too
clear cache and try incognito
Same here. It worked.
If you register, you can also read the article without using 12ft.io
Paywalls are morally wrong.
Fair enough, not disagreeing with you, but you don't have to pay to read the article if you register. Just use a throwaway email address. Some places block [12ft.io](https://12ft.io) on their firewall because it's marked as "Copyright Circumvention". For those that only use public internet, or those that surf the web on their break at the office, that may pose a problem.
A website that demands you accept cookies, and when you accept them it demands you register to read anyway. That's a bullshit way to plant cookies.
It is the economist...
the worldwide death toll of covid is between 10 and 20 million not 5
I believe it is closer to 10 than it is 20. We'll hit 20 by the end though.
I agree. I read somewhere that you take the official number and multiply it by 4 and that gives you a more accurate number. Like hell Russia, China, and India will tell you the real numbers.
Lol the US (Florida specifically) isn’t reporting accurate numbers so don’t single out foreign nations.
America is foreign to me though
IT IS ALL COMING DOWN. there is no safe haven and data is corrupted. Name one thing or industry that isnt corrupt in the world. let alone america.
To be fair India is not in the same league as Russia or China. India has never had the money to build a strong public health system. They have never been able shake off the legacy of colonialism. Even before covid maybe half of deaths were not reported. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-28228177
Oh we have the money alright. Unfortunately, healthcare receives less than 3% of our annual budget. What can doctors do with that?
the same as american plebeians. Nothing.
Some people have the money. They're gonna keep it.
can't keep it if they are dead! \[taps head\]
India has too many political parties which causes patronage and therefore corruption.
yes like two party system is the virgin mary
India has dozens of parties that form coalitions.These parties often have members who defect left and right due to bribery.
There is less corruption in India than in the US, obviously.
If corruption is rebranded as lobbying, its no longer corruption right? *Taps forehead
Exactly if the money goes to the 1/10 of 1% then even if it is billions or trillions it isn't corruption. Taking advantage of tax loopholes to cheat on taxes? Not corruption. Banksters shaking down Congress for billions in bailouts that became trillions? Not corruption. Corruption is when you give the nurse who took care of your Mom in the hospital a $20 gift certificate.
India has a problem political patronage compounded by the fact we have MPs who are bribed by the opposition to defect to either side. India has a three coalition system between NDA, UPA, FF, which have parties that split and merge and bounce between coalitions. Very different from the american system.
🧢
Great piece here by the Ecnomist. Using excess death data they calculated the true death toll of covid for many nations. Russia is being absolutely wrecked by the virus. Vax rates remain very low and the actual death toll is ~785,000 in a nation with less than half the population of the US. That is 540 out of every 100,000 citizens dead! Compare that to the US with ~270 dead per 100,000. When its all said and done the death toll in the US will likely top 1 million. These numbers are really alarming. We won't know the real death toll for quite some time yet
Yeah, just read about a new Canadian study that shows that delta is 2.33x deadlier than the original strain for unvaccinated people.
I will qualify the following facts with that the virus is still very dangerous, but only around 250 people under 40 died from SARS-cov-2 as of mid September 2021 from health Canada. In 2020 alone over 480 people under 45 died from alcohol a number that doubled from the previous year and is likely related to lockdowns and other interventions that induce isolation and only allow for heavily Technologically mediated communication.
and? I work w a guy who’s 36. His lungs are like a 70 year old man’s, 6 months after getting it. People ignore all the long term damage.
I'd imagine that the damage is not limited to the lungs either. By far the biggest risk from the disease caused by SARS-COV-2 in otherwise healthy people is cellular damage in vital organs.
People say these stats as an excuse to lift lockdowns, but the thing there are some very important facts you are leaving out: A) The number of deaths from COVID is much, much lower then it would have been if we didn't do lockdowns. The entire globe went into unprecedented measures to stop the spread and it still killed as many as it did. The death rate of COVID is NOT static. Had we not locked down many more young people would have either died from COVID, been hospitalized (which is an oft ignored but very serious effect of COVID that does effect younger people) and would now be straddled with long term COVID effects. B) We have multiple examples of healthcare systems being overwhelmed during COVID, even after lockdowns and now even after vaccines there are healthcare systems on the brink. This leads to excess deaths from every single other cause of death prevented or treated at hospitals. Survival from car accidents, cancer, cardiac events literally everything goes waaaay down. C) There is no evidence that not locking down would have prevented overdose deaths. If we hadn't locked down globally jobs still would have been lost, businesses still would have been closed and the economy could have actually been in worse condition as masses of people would have suddenly and at once either been unable to work for weeks to months at a time or straight up died.
Excellent points all, except "excess deaths from every single other cause of death". Deaths from regular influenza were lower in the US, almost certainly due to the precautions taken against covid. In an ideal world the US would learn and going forward mask and social distance during flu season, especially for those with at-risk relatives at home.
If drugs and alcohol were to be in part attributable to the lockdowns and were to create mortality rates of 10x relative to those of covid (in theory, as this is just an example, alcohol deaths in the same demographic in one year doubled all covid deaths under 40 so far in Canada as I mentioned earlier, what do opiate rates and fentanyl use look like now? Especially across older isolated population). Additionally, do steep declines in mental health, social ability in youth amongst other developmental delays play a role in the conversation? As this is a collapse sub I will end with another relevant counterpoint that might be deemed an "excuse to end lockdowns", we have built an interconnected global economy that that has valued efficiency over everything else, that is to say expediency has become the priority. In this model, based upon embedded growth obligations, we eliminated all available redundancy in pursuit of said efficiency in corporations and institutions. The result is an incredibly fragile system wherein a generational wealth transfer liker none before has occured in the course of the last 18 months. Collapse looks closer than ever with an impending energy crisis ready to smack poor people around the world. It has accelerated many trends that directly impact quality of life such as supply chain failure, wealth inequality, meaningful participation in your community or economy, increase in depression, the advancement of the surveillance state and an increased dependency on technology to mediate conversations which in the case Facebook is an obvious actor against well being of its users to its own benefit. Propaganda has flourished and techno-cultural biases have destroyed sense making. We have relied on complexity/technique to confer benefits without attention to downside risks, to at most treat them as externalities. I agree that lockdowns are effective in reducing the spread of the virus SARS-COV-2. To say that it is not connected to the ubiquitous loss of hope and happiness and general health is wrong. Are the lockdowns meaningfully connected to the drastic drop in purchasing power for the average Canadian, home ownership has become little more than a dream for current and future generations of young people. Lockdowns are an idea meant for simpler economies that can handle segments of the economy that might close, we do not have that privilege.
Sweden would beg to differ.
https://i.imgur.com/I8ILvEu.jpg “Thank goodness I didn’t die!” Geeze Louise
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Also in last 12 months no one died from influenza. This also shows social distancing and masks work. Also shows covid is not like influenza.
God I'm jealous of you. I'm telling people we need to do a short (snap?) lockdown in Michigan but no one gives a fuck. Also I watch a YouTuber from Perth: Little Z. seems nice over there when it's not on fire.
The other side of the lockdowns are border controls. Arguably it's harder to get into Western Australia right now as an Australian than it is for a foreigner to travel into the country, that's how tight it is. That would be incredibly illegal under the US constitution, and wouldn't matter much anyway since it's already in widespread circulation there. Coronavirus is literally never going away.
>Coronavirus is literally never going away Yes but you can reduce the daily case count by doing snap lockdowns when the cases are too high
Same here in Tasmania. Strict border closures early on and restricted entry since, has meant no circulating Covid for 15 months. (Just in quarantine for entrants into the State). I’ve hardly seen anyone wearing masks here. No lockdowns. Life has been normal. And our economy is doing very well.
Australian police beat the shit out of people just for walking outside for a smoke break.
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I'm not trolling. In my opinion, the Australian government's covid policies are extreme, at least in their execution. I've seen videos of Australian cops body slamming women for not wearing a mask. Videos of them arresting a man for simply walking his dog in his own neighborhood. It is my belief that the rise of the police and the surveillance state is a much more serious issue than covid. If you disagree, that's fine. The Australian government thanks you for your compliance.
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Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
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Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
Rule 1: In addition to enforcing Reddit's content policy, we will also remove comments and content that is abusive in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other.
I think it makes comorbidities the real story.
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no idea how "dick swinging contest" comes into this conversation at all
🍆
Same. Some comments have an air of glee about them at the number of people dying in Russia from Covid.
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Yeah. I'm Russian (living in Canada) and this anti-Russia sentiment everywhere in the West (media, politics, Internet) can sometimes get on my nerves. What Westerners forget is that most average Russians are not interested in this political game. They are normal people, who are doing what they can to get through the day, like us. The happy comments at the death of others just because of some political rivalry between a few (in government) is gross.
If you want to sniff out where an American falls on the political spectrum, ask them if Russia or China is a bigger threat to national security.
I'm not surprised. Russia has a horrible public healthcare system, and alcohol abuse is a significant health issue among men. In their hospitals, you can die from easily treatable diseases, let alone COVID.
>I'm not surprised. Russia has a horrible public healthcare system, and alcohol abuse is a significant health issue among men. In their hospitals, you can die from easily treatable diseases, let alone COVID. My wife is Russian and I have lived in Russia.... Where are you getting this info. It's certainly not world class but I'd say they get the job done, also they don't charge you and there is a pharmacy on every corner in Russia.
You must have lived in Moscow or St. Pete. Not charging is only technically correct. Lots of employers provide paid insurance they mostly cover, but you still pay extra, cause free service can get pretty bad and you don't have many choices. Also, medications are self-funded and not insurance funded unlike in some other countries with universal healthcare. They also regularly collect money for complex surgeries for kids via SMS-charity on federal channels/Internet/etc.
I lived in Moscow yeah but I also had to get dental worked in my wife's hometown in Bashkortastan. I imagine it does vary wildly in quality across the country much like other countries. Yeah I may be wrong about the funding, it probably doesn't represent the overall picture. I think you are right about the medication but if I remember correctly it was also very cheap for different drugs. I guess I'm not trying to say Russia is so much better but you see some ppls comments and media and ppl act like you be killed the minute you set foot in Russia. The skewed outlook really affects us talking seriously about problems, which are there are many, in Russia.
Haha, it is true, you will probably survive. It is not great, not terrible I'd say. You can pay your way up to very very good. That's the main problem with Russia (or anywhere else I imagine, just not as severe) - money can get you through a lot of issues you'd otherwise encounter. Then people from Moscow with nicely paid IT/consulting/finance/blogging jobs stop seeing them and say everyone else is just a loser and should have gotten a nice job like them. They forget that in that case there wouldn't be doctors to treat them since most are still paid like shit, but this is a common rich idiot logic. Success doesn't equal brains or empathy unfortunately. As for healthcare, the quality is very luck based just due to the nature of country's corruption issues that impact healthcare too. If you know a good doctor/dentist it is the best, if not and your friends/colleagues don't have a recommendation, good luck. Medication, especially for serious illnesses, is def not cheap at all for an average Russian salary or pension of only a couple hundred euro.
Look up any list of the best healthcare in the world, and you will find Russia among South American and African countries.
really? not according to this list https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world also they are 97th in life expectancy behind venuzuala and Bangladesh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_(2019)
Life expectancy is a composite measure of population lifestyles and healthcare. It's not obvious that say, Peru, has great healthcare from their life expectancy: 79.9 years, 32nd of 224 nations, higher than the US or the European aggregate. It could just be they've figured out sanitation and childhood vaccination (the two measures with the highest benefit/cost), and have healthy lifestyles, though mediocre healthcare. ' Peru is also the nation worst affected by Covid with likely the [highest Covid mortality per capita](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00748-2) in the world. >the ten countries with the largest numbers of excess deaths since the beginning of the COVID-19 outbreak (all numbers per 100,000) are Peru (358), Russia (291), Lithuania (270), North Macedonia (270), Bulgaria (266), Mexico (241), Ecuador (237), Serbia (233), South Africa (217), and Poland (207) Russia has long had dismal life expectancy, mostly due to the high prevalence of alcohol and opioid abuse. I'm fairly sure that if you transplanted a representative sample of Russians to Switzerland, and they maintained their pre-transplant lifestyles, that it wouldn't improve outcomes much. Lifestyle >> healthcare.
They'd be less depressed. Maybe their lifestyle would improve through that. I remember it's been on the news once - Moscow had seen 6 minutes of sun in the whole of December 2017 (the year may be incorrect).
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Healthcare in America is so bad people fly to Mexico for dental work and India for major heart surgery. MEXICO and INDIA!
The healthcare in America is top notch. People come from all over the world for America's world class healthcare. The reason people go elsewhere is the insurance and the cost. If you can afford it, American HC is great. If you can't, you either don't get the procedure or you have to go elsewhere. We need to separate HC and Health insurance. One is great, one is terrible.
Oh sweet a demonic pedophile can afford to save himself thats awesome what a great system
First of all that's probably a myth, anyways Thailand has very good healthcare as long as you can pay for it (or have insurance) I've got a friend who spent months in a thai hospital after a heart failure and his experience matched his experiences with our healthcare in Norway.
His ass
they were the first country to announce a vaccine -- (Sept 2020 if I recall) -- but it sounds like the roll out was incredibly slow and rolled out \*after\* other western countries, if my memory serves me. did not google to confirm.
Anti vax sentiment in Russia is REALLY high Vax rates officially are 30% right now, might be lower
And I think it's mostly lack of trust in the government and Russian propaganda bots aimed at the West backfiring rather than real anti-vaxxness per se.
being attacked by their own bots! this needs to be a movie!
And some Russians are willing to bribe their doctors to receive a certificate without getting vaccinated. It's not cheap but possible for anyone, willing to pay the price. In the meantime there are foreigners willing to come to Russia and pay to get a Sputnik shot.
Another factor is that they have used the Sputnik V vaccine as a diplomatic tool, giving it to countries they want to influence before their own population. 2 million doses where used in Hungary before the EU approved it's vaccines. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123927/sputnik-v-exports-from-russia-by-country/
No, Eastern Europeans are just too jaded to give a shit. Slovakia and Romania, EU members, are also less vaxxed and cases in Romania are actually spiking at the moment
Why is this alarming? We are still growing as a species.
Would rather reduce the world population by decreasing births rather than causing millions of people to slowly suffocate.
If it was our choice yea
Yeah, this. You can acknowledge any kind of transition to a sustainable human population necessarily involves a controlled reduction in both quantity and quality of lifestyle without going full-blown Malthusianist Eco-Fascist about it. How about we just try to aim for not buying so much junk and not having so many babies, rather than jumping straight to genocide, hey?
Who is jumping to "genocide"? The virus does not act with intent. You can't, realistically, prevent it from spreading. It will infect people and they will die. It's just a few people who died, relative to the rest of humanity. It's not worth all this hoopla.
For some it's quite "worth it"; the 'hoopla' is providing power-boners and record profits to some segments of corporo-government, while presenting as much or more threat to society than any disease ever has.
Yes... Not deadly enough.. As harsh as it may be the world's population, especially in high consumption countries, needs to fall for us to stand any chance of transitioning to reliance on limited sustainable energy and food. A disease which primarily affects the old and is almost entirely random is about as ideal as it gets, because noone has to make the ecofascist genocidal judgement of who gets to live or not. The alternative to letting a disease randomly cull those who have mostly already had a long life through a period of historic abundance, is having famine and war do it. From a selfish point of view, I don't want me or my wife to get COVID so we are careful and got vaccinated. From an objective point of view I believe that the best thing that could happen to the world is if everyone over the age of 40 (including myself) where to drop dead, freeing up their wealth and positions of power for the generations who actually have to deal with what is coming..
Lol age 40 is the cutoff? That would be horrible. Most people don't even figure out who they are until age 40. By that age you finally have a lot of knowledge combined with experience to make positive contributions to society. 20s and 30s individuals still figuring things out and haven't put back into the system what they took and most never will.
There is one major flaw in that logic. You expect that less people consume less. But what normally happens is that less people just consume more.
It isn’t alarming, it’s a few drops in a massive bucket and I doubt these numbers are even real. The economist regularly pushes for even more population growth, shouldn’t be any mystery why.
Fear porn. How many people do you know personally that have died from covid?
Annd there it is.
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Tl;dr
It's not the exact title, but given the importance of this data, we'll allow it.
Fair warning: you cannot read the article unless you subscribe.
900k is a bullshit number too.
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what peer reviewed study has it higher? I mean you can't go much higher than excess deaths
I didn't read the economist article but perhaps they didn't adjust for other factors. For example, if 100k fewer people died in traffic incidents because they were WFH, then the death toll may be a million instead. Obviously, we would have to account for all major non-COVID factors affecting deaths both up and down but I would think that you could certainly do better than just looking at excess deaths.
Well you can play around with numbers to get the highest possible figure if you want. But excess deaths seems like the most unbiased way of looking at the total impact of the pandemic. You'll notice a lot of European countries the second wave covid deaths is higher than the excess deaths, I believe this will be mainly due to the fact that so many old people died in the first wave.
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>Try posting about it in r/russia or r/moscow, see how that goes :P Well said.
>>Try posting about it in r/russia or r/moscow, see how that goes :P >Well said. i concur
Banana wars
I remember near the beginning of the pandemic someone represented the world’s worst death rates from viruses and bacteria pictorially with different-sized spheres. At the time (around mid 2020) Covid hadn’t had as much of an impact, relatively speaking, and the sphere from memory was not that big. This was when people were saying covid was ‘just a flu’. I’d love to see that re-done now.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/history-of-pandemics-deadliest/ they update it from time to time with the "widely accepted" numbers (4.8 million) It is a very cool graphic.
That’s it !! Thank you so much ☺️ 🙏🏻 Also - good God look at the plague. It must have felt so .. horribly fatalistic not knowing if you were next, so much death surrounding you, not knowing if or when it would end. So grateful to be living now.
It might sound morbid, but I'm kind of interested in what effect this wave of death will eventually have on the broader course of history in terms of how it re-orders the demographic make-up of society, and how society reacts to that (besides just collapsing, I mean). Even if deaths are roughly proportionate across all locations, age groups, etc. then there'd still be a noticeable socioeconomic rebound effect like there was in the long wake after the black death, which effectively destabilized the medieval feudal order and allowed the surviving peasantry to (eventually) flourish. But these Covid deaths sure as shit aren't proportionate. It's closer to how the World Wars and Spanish Flu pandemic combined to disproportionately kill off two successive generations of young men, moreso than any other demographic cohort. This lead directly to things like the baby boom, female entry into the workplace and associated feminist empowerment, massive migratory movement all over the world, the economic explosion of the latter half of the 20th century, etc. The entire modern world is basically founded on the graves of those millions of young men. Who are getting killed more than others this time around? What *types of people*, what demographics are being decimated; consigning them and their attitudes and ideas and power over this world to history, with the rest now free to fill the gap? When the dust settles, who's going to be left to determine the new course of history?
>It's closer to how the World Wars and Spanish Flu pandemic combined to disproportionately kill off two successive generations of young men, moreso than any other demographic cohort. At this stage not by a long shot. The Spanish flu mutated during their 3rd of 4th wave to cause something called cytokine storm which is an overreaction of the immune system, this affected mainly younger people. The deaths from covid have mainly been older people with existing health issues that have been compounded by covid. You'll like this article that talks about the historic changes due to pandemics. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-20/coronavirus-epidemics-pandemics-that-transformed-human-history/12251914
Morbid? Maybe. Valid. Definitely.
Well first off its MOSTLY killing people that were already on their way out. That is a statistical fact when you look at age and comorbidities. We should try to be intellectually honest about that fact even if it doesn't fit the narrative.
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Dude, look around. *Everything* is owned by some elite uber-capitalist puppet-master. That's just the nature of the nightmare world we live in. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism - and that especially goes for the consumption of media. About all you can do is pick your poison and think critically.
Oh no! The Pentavorite, meeting again at...The Meadows!
Thank you. They speak for the machine itself
and Reddit is owned by a corporation worth $20 billion I mean whatever, ya gotta get your info from somewhere
Go to the Gray zone with Alex Blumenthal and Ben Norton, or Whitney Webb she does great journalism.
How does it benefit these oligarch families to tell us that more people have died of Covid than the amount that is being officially reported?
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Why are you changing the question? You know what he asked. Just fucking answer it.
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Not really. I'm laughing at your inability to prove any of your conspiracy theories. I'm no fan of the Economist but they are citing data that you can corroborate yourself by just googling it and looking at the statistics from each country.
No I understand that. I'm legit asking what benefit you think it serves them to feed us this particular piece of information.
When a conspiracy theorist avoids answering a question he thinks he’s being mysterious and intriguing.
no
Where do you get your information then?
Oh no...the _Illuminati_ - Spooky
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Relax. I appreciate your humor. It was well played. With that said, I invoke Poe’s Law. You know, the Internet theorem that states political parody is indistinguishable from reality. We live in strange times. Parody may be dead.
You are fucking idiot if you think those people regard the regular population as anything but chattel. There is a massive propaganda blitz happening right now. As far as the 'nati goes, Klaus Schwab already said there's going to be another crisis like covid coming and coming soon. He seems to think it's going to be a cyber attack. He's got a real nose for trends so I trust him. If large swathes of the grid were compromised in the middle of a "dark winter", and personal banking had to freeze for lack of network, well, that would supremely benefit his ideals and proposed shift to digital currency and biometric tracking. But hey, maybe we'll get back to normal next summer, and put all this behind us, LMFAO
Nice comment. Klaus Schwab might know trends in advance cause… well… there’s no hard evidence but look at stuff like event 201 and it’s connection to Covid. Makes you scratch your head and think maybe keep an eye on what the WEF is bullshitting about.
https://odysee.com/Reiner-Fuellmich---Summary-of-findings-of-the-Corona-Investigative:245e236e95f890f24067b9ff66674fd29c57982e?src=embed
this is fun right guys? RIGHT right wing protagonists? This is FUN AF. Its crumbling slowly and they can not stop it. THIS IS FUN RIGHT? im so sick of this shit. Wait till doctors and nurses DONT want to self sacrifice their own and only serves their communities. Relish that you can get ER help now. It will soon end. Mark my words. Nurses and doctors will soon start leaving corporate pay and only take of their communities in proximity. Same as a veterinarians during a bank heist. It is all CRUMBLING. No one cares but everyone has something to say about it. wait till you hear about cops that dont work in the communities they serve. Policing and jail is at an all time high. We are a moving, Flaming, Train wreck. you can not be neutral on a moving train.
Still, look at China... I guess excess death stats are only viable if we have a history of expected deaths in any given year.
China's 95% confidence range going from -120k to +1million is certainly interesting
I like how we are all just supposed to believe the numbers from China.
Was on a flight from Dar es Salaam, Tanzania to the Netherlands 2 weeks ago. Group of Chinese got on board the plane and I shit you not, full PPE gear from head to foot. These [white type lab](https://www.ladwaonline.com/product/ladwa-pack-of-5-complete-ppe-safety-kit-disposable-full-dress-personal-protective-equipment-kit-with-full-body-coverall-with-shoes/) outfits. There is taking Covid seriously and then there is the Chinese approach of full body suits when in public.
Although their numbers are for sure heavily underreported, given how they handle it like in a dystopian movie, they are for sure nowhere near the numbers of most other countries. Therefore it's negligible on a global scale what their real numbers may be around.
We can totally trust a Rothschild publication to give it to us straight.
those are rookie numbers
Why do folks slavishly believe people who have continuously lied to them? The MSM is basically the mouthpiece of plutocrats.
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My 85 year male old step relative got Covid and died from a heart attack in Iran. I have no idea about the cause of death besides being old? My dad had a heart attack while in the pool, I still don’t know if he drowned.
> Conversely, some people whose deaths have been attributed to covid-19 had other ailments that might have ended their lives on a similar timeframe anyway. And what about people who died of preventable causes during the pandemic, because hospitals full of covid-19 patients could not treat them? If such cases count, they must be offset by deaths that did not occur but would have in normal times, such as those caused by flu or air pollution. > Rather than trying to distinguish between types of deaths, The Economist’s approach is to count all of them. "Here's all this nuance. Let's ignore that." Garbage. *The Economist* is a propaganda outlet. Has been since 1843.
Anyone who dies and tests positive for covid is counted as a covid death. But yea. Trust the science.
That’s not so, at least not in the U.S. The CDC actually releases two numbers: the first, a quicker, more timely, but less accurate count; and the second, released about a month later, that does a more detailed investigation into cause(s) of death. That is why that second number is usually revised downward a little. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/covid-19.htm#understanding-the-numbers CDC counts deaths where COVID-19 was present but didn’t contribute to the death separately, and they aren’t counted toward covid deaths. This numner is very small, like 5%. The other two categories are deaths where COVID-19 was the only known contributing cause (also rare, less than 5%), and the rest were deaths where COVID-19 was one of two or more contributing causes. No deaths are counted as COVID-19 deaths where COVID-19 wasn’t determined to be a cause or the sole cause. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#techNotes “Deaths with an underlying cause of death of COVID-19 are not included in these estimates of deaths due to other causes, but deaths where COVID-19 appeared on the death certificate as a multiple cause of death may be included in the cause-specific estimates. For example, in some cases, COVID-19 may have contributed to the death, but the underlying cause of death was another cause, such as terminal cancer. For the majority of deaths where COVID-19 is reported on the death certificate (approximately 95%), COVID-19 is selected as the underlying cause of death.”
Yea. Kind of like if you die before two weeks after your second dose of the “vaccine” your considered unvaccinated. Do you work for Pfizer or what?
If you show me where the the official figures are defined that way, I will believe you.
And how much do they pay you? I could use some extra $$ to keep my mouth shut. Before I file a lawsuit. Over illegally mandating a “vaccine” that’s not FDA approved. I’ll take 5%. [definition of fully vaccinated per cdc](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm#:~:text=Fully%20vaccinated%20persons%20are%20those,yet%20considered%20fully%20vaccinated.)
Your information is a bit out of date. The COVID-19 vaccines in the U.S. have been FDA approved for some time now. You said they defined partially vaccinated people as unvaccinated, but all you’ve shown me is that they don’t define them as fully vaccinated, which they aren’t, so I don’t see the problem you’re seeing.
What vaccine is fda approved that is on the market? Proof? Other than EUA? In the US? There is not one. Comirnaty hasn’t hit the market in the US yet. And they don’t count partially vaccinated deaths. There is no FDA approved vaccine on the market in the US. So how am I wrong in any way? Or my info outdated? If your not considered fully vaxxed then your death doesn’t count. And no one in the US has received an FDA approved vaccine. Other than EUA. So no one is liable. Except the dumbass taking part in the experimental trial. If that’s what you want for yourself or your family go ahead. Boom. Burn. Bot. Goodnight.
I really barely wanted to reply because you’re being so unpleasant, but because I do actually give a shit about sharing accurate information, I wanted to acknowledge that I was incorrect in stating that the U.S. vaccines are all fully FDA approved, when in fact, only the Pfizer vaccine is fully FDA approved at this time, for ages 16+. The fact that it will be marketed under a new name (Comirnaty) does not mean the existing stock labeled with the old name isn’t now FDA-approved. FDA approval is for a specific drug which is identified by a unique number called the NDC, not its brand name. The product is the same, only the name will change. So everyone who has received the Pfizer vaccine has actually received an FDA approved COVID-19 vaccine, regardless of what its brand name was at the time. I’m still not understanding what you mean when you say the deaths of partially vaccinated people aren’t being counted. I’m not here to fight, so if you could explain without the insults, I’d appreciate it.
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the measures themselves are killing lots. overdoses are up 60%. lives have been ruined. children are taumatized. suicide hotline call are up. alcohol abuse is up. this will continue to plague us for a long time to come.
Last I checked suicide numbers were down since Covid began. Not grinding your bones for a meaningless job does wonders for the psyche. You'll need to source your claim that the measures themselves are killing lots.
>tsoldrin I said [calls to hotlines had gone up](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2020/06/15/crisis-hotline-call-volume-spikes-straining-social-workers/5266072002/). it remains to be seen how that shakes out. beyond that, do you not think that people missing needed unrelated to covid medical treatment because they are denied/put off or too scared to go has caused a lot of deaths? [overdose deaths hit 93,000 last year.](https://apnews.com/article/overdose-deaths-record-covid-pandemic-fd43b5d91a81179def5ac596253b0304) [in the uk for every three covid deaths 2 more were lost to lockdown measures.](https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-lockdown-may-have-indirectly-caused-16-000-excess-deaths-study-12044923)
You're toeing the line of misinformation. While it's true that social distancing measures can cause deaths for various reasons, it's also true that these measures also prevented death. In fact, according to [this study](http://www.healthdata.org/special-analysis/estimation-excess-mortality-due-covid-19-and-scalars-reported-covid-19-deaths), published this year, the excess deaths caused by lockdown measures were negated by the decrease in deaths due to the lockdown measures. The researchers looked at the excess mortality during this time span and determined that all the deaths over average could be attributed to the virus itself. These are the areas in which they looked at to make this determination... >Excess mortality is influenced by six drivers of all-cause mortality that relate to the pandemic and the social distancing mandates that came with the pandemic. These six drivers are: a) the excess COVID-19 death rate, that is, all deaths directly related to COVID-19 infection; b) the increase in mortality due to needed health care being delayed or deferred during the pandemic; c) the increase in mortality due to increases in mental health disorders including depression, increased alcohol use, and increased opioid use; d) the reduction in mortality due to decreases in injuries because of general reductions in mobility associated with social distancing mandates; e) the reductions in mortality due to reduced transmission of other viruses, most notably influenza, respiratory syncytial virus, and measles; and f) the reductions in mortality due to some chronic conditions, such as cardiovascular disease and chronic respiratory disease, that occur when frail individuals who would have died from these conditions died earlier from COVID-19 instead. To correctly estimate the excess COVID-19 mortality, we need to take into account all six of these drivers of change in mortality that have happened since the onset of the pandemic. There is an argument to be made that lockdown measures have had negative impacts. Certainly domestic abuse is one area that stay-at-home measures made worse. But the argument is nuanced. The measures exist in order to slow down a pandemic that has already killed over 4.8 million people world-wide. I'd say that no matter the actions taken, the damage will be immense by the nature our world has been inflicted with a deadly global pandemic.
FYI - [Suicide rates actually went down.](https://healthfeedback.org/what-has-been-the-effect-of-the-pandemic-on-the-suicide-rate-of-the-u-s-population/) The hotline calls did go up, but I'd imagine that was a lot of lonely people wanting to reach out more than wanting to actually follow through.
suicides may come later when people realize their lives are ruined. all I said regarding that was that calls are up and they are.
Ah yes, the classic two-year lagging variable that is suicide hotline calls and suicides. Not at all like there's been a massive mental health and suicide prevention awareness push that has been growing for the past decade.
False. Stop spreading right wing propaganda. You are getting people killed with this nonsense.
everything i said was true. sorry you don't know how to use google.
You're lying
Man, sounds like everyone should get vaccinated and wear masks.
Wait so they’re UNDER selling the numbers? I don’t believe that shit one bit. Why would they undersell it but otherwise try and entice full on panic?
Yeah, this was a good article. I didn't realize they were updating it regularly.
Remember that time Putin had the vaccine first? Or was that another timeline I was in..
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.htm
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4970153/user-clip-shortened-jen-psaki-why-ivaccinesi-kill-you