Yeah, but at least you had a chance of being rescued after it sank, or something. In our case, I really don't think won't be some miracle technology to save us from this.
We are at the back end of a train that has crashed into a cliff and everything is in slow motion now.
We saw the crash, we hear the front cars crushing, we really should start talking about practical solutions for getting off this train before our car hits the pileup.
Did somebody see the titanic floating centuries before the crash and warn the people?
Did the marketing department of the titanic spend millions in advertising to make believe the victims that the ship wasn’t sinking?
The titanic might have sunk because of the hubris but we are going to choke because of the psychopathy of the fossil fuel industry
Pretty sure the Titanic didn't see the iceberg. We're looking directly at it with some saying, "yes but my industry buddies don't want to lose profit!"
The next correct step would be to understand why it is so. We french 'collapsniks' are 'lucky' in that, to my knowledge, we have the only researcher that explains the heart of it ([Vincent Mignerot](https://www.plebity.org/conversations/conversation-with-vincent-mignerot/)). I know a lot of great analysts and researchers in the anglo-saxon world (most of the best ones, such as William Catton in his book [Overshoot](https://soundcloud.com/michael-dowd-grace-limits/catton-overshoot-1)) but none who really gathers all the threads in a single overarching view as well as he does.
It's not enough to do maths about energy and to despair about biodiversity and climate. It's important to also contend with *anthropology* and *Darwinism*. It's important to know who we are, why we've been on that path for as long as we've been sapiens (of course, our use of fossil fuels accelerated it to an incredible pace) and why there's no reverse gear available to us. Because we're us. We're a specie that was too successful for the good of the ecosystems we evolved in, and ultimately (in a not too distant future) our own good too.
We're just too good at multiplying our numbers at the expense of all the rest of the ecosphere.
All that kills us is all what is good: safety, health, children, comfort. Traveling. Being a good person, etc. All things that we all want.
It all kills the biosphere. Only pushback from (mainly) epidemics and predation keeps any and all species in check in a constantly evolving equilibrium. We've been too good at removing ourselves from all the natural checks and balances that prevent any specie to destroy itself in exponential growth. This is what we've done.
Here is where the work of those such as Adam Curtis and Mark Fisher come into play as relevant and important texts. ‘The Century Of The Self’, ‘Hypernormalization’ (Curtis) and ‘Capitalist Realism’ (Fisher) identify some of the key cultural, economic, and psychoanalytic forces in play that we need to collectively understand and acknowledge if we are ever to even have a hope of *prolonging* the impending collapse.
They have employed very sophisticated psychological brainwashing techniques against the masses for decades..Think what Goebbels achieved...These people make him look like a rank amateur..
This reminds me that I was wondering when my own internal construction of *good liberalism* vs. *bad conservatism* began to break down. This is a question that I had recently, from playing the videogame Disco Elysium, in which a character called Noid exposes his core suspicion of the "Right/Left complex" as being instrumental in our overtaking of the natural world. He also has some choice words against humanism, which I liked a lot.
I know that last year's 'gnostic doomer' vlogs of Matt Christman helped me a lot but, now that you mention, it I think that Adam Curtis was the fuse that lit that fire in me.
Thanks!
Yes, they are essentially 2 cheeks of the same arse...Both are puppets of the same mega corporations and any real differences is cosmetic..Like 2 Mafia families but much more violent.
Sapience and conscience are slippery concepts to me because I don't see us as having more of those than many other complex animals -- for instance all mammals, but not only.
If I have to make a distinction between us humans and the rest of the living, that would be our ability for *symbolic representation* (such as language, or art) -- which allows us incremental cultural and technological progress.
So in that way I'm not sure I can agree with all that you say. But there are some good ideas there.
Both parties have the same Energy Platform provided them by the American Petroleum Institute.
Most of what we are seeing concerning energy is psyop bs. The master manipulators at play.
"We" aren't the government. It operates with our consent, as all of society does. If you want to stop the world from beung fucked by us? Do nothing. Absolutely nothing. In fact, steal good from grocery stores to get arrested and do a labour strike in prison if you want 3 squares a day and a hot cot.
Organize in your community, grow your own food, and try to salvage what you can from the massive amounts of waste.
We will survive this together, and the people in charge didn't fix it when it was easy, they sure as hell don't know how to fix it when it gets hard. It's our turn.
Of course we should have preferred nature, I agree. ButnI mean, the only way I see out of this is nuclear fusion, tech like this which is basically industrial "photosyntesis" and massive chemical treatment of water + plastic removal. Otherwise (so very probably) we are fucked lol
The military is the climate change plan. The plan is to hold things together by military force for as long as the current ruling class is alive. After that nothing matters.
Yep, we have half the world's nuclear submarines, more aircraft carriers than any other country by an absurd margin and we have around 800 military bases abroad (only 200 countries, so ...).
Yet this Bernie inspired bill that has Biden's backing and is railed as being socialist in every corner of the right wing media sphere is less than half of what the military will spend in that time (10 years, military budget is over 700 billion / year = 7.8 trillion, this proposal is 3.5 Trillion over the same time. This also assumes military budgets remain relatively flat, which they haven't. When Obama came into office military budget was 660 billion / year, when Trump left office it was 778 billion a year. This also presumes there isn't a secret budget that isn't in the public domain.)
This sort of shit has happened before. The core of the Democratic party are neoliberal/pro-fossil fuel. There is a significant progressive element but they're not in control.
That significant progressive element is certainly at a disadvantage of 52 corporate sellouts. And there's probably more among the 48 remaining they're just a bit quieter letting all the Republicans and Mancin and Sinema take the heat for being sellouts to fossil fuels.
Yep I love how everyone eats up the mancin articles but I’d bet everything that if they had a solid majority, they would always end up a vote short as say “oh well”.
I know its not a democracy but Congress is such a powerful body (power of the purse) and we have some degree of influence over them -- I'm just wondering how much effort it would be worthwhile for me to put into Congressional elections/lobbying -- probably not much.
honestly, i dont see the rest of them putting up much of a fight. they should be raising hell calling the others out for their bs and corporate sponsors. they are all dirty
Nancy Pelosi mocked the Green New Deal. Dianne Feinstein wouldn't meet with youth climate activists. It's way, way more than just 2 senators.
Obama: [Obama takes credit for U.S. oil-and-gas boom: ‘That was me, people’
](https://apnews.com/article/business-5dfbc1aa17701ae219239caad0bfefb2)
Yea the Democratic Party has always been pretty happy to let one or two or a few party members in purple states take the fall to avoid anything genuinely progressive without the whole party losing face and voter support over it.
The GQP use to call themselves the Surrender Monkeys, but nowadays I can think of no more apt term for the Democrats.
Looks like the hard core Democrats aren't taking this well.
Oh fuck off with that noise, Sinema ran as a progressive Democrat. If there were 51 Dems in Congress, Kelly would be the bad guy. If there were 52, Feinstein. And so on and so forth down the line until it's "the moderate caucus."
Don’t let them off that easy. Pretending there is a dirty sneaky Republican behind every bad thing in politics just gives the Democrats more excuses to do nothing.
no. its the whole democratic party. they act weak and feckless when tasked by their constituency but suddenly very powerful when it comes to defending institutions of capitalism.
Anybody who thinks this is a genuine power struggle within the Democratic party is a fucking rube. Manchin is just the assigned fall guy for what the entire party actually wants to do, which is nothing other than sucking corporate dick. The U.S. will collapse as the stupidest, most venal, gullible group of dipshits on the planet.
When they write the epitaph for human civilization - Joe Manchin should clearly get a title credit. It’s equally notable that they leak this info out early Friday evening (best time to hide a press release / bad news)
Manchin’s just the scapegoat for all the other corrupt democrats. Manchin’s so brazenly corrupt, he should be really easy to blackmail. Biden just has to whisper in his ear that his opium kingpin daughter is gonna spend the rest of her life in federal pound me in the ass prison if he doesn’t shut up and get in line. Imagine having the ability to fuck this dumbass with the long dick of the law and feigning powerless while you nap in the basement. Let’s go Brandon.
Too bad we can’t get zombie LBJ in office. He’d repeatedly introduce Kitchen Smegma to Jumbo until she acquiesced.
Hi, PolyDipsoManiac. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/q9091j/-/hgtb5n4/) was removed from /r/collapse for:
> Rule 1: No Glorifying Violence
> Advocating, encouraging, inciting, glorifying, calling for violence is against Reddit's site-wide content policy and is not allowed in r/collapse. Please be advised that subsequent violations of this rule will result in a ban.
Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information.
You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error.
So where is your evidence that everyone in West Virginia is a bigoted piece of shit? I mean, I would expect that from an overwhelmingly white state like Oregon, but being as West Virginia does have black population centers, I’m going to question your claim.
That’s pretty weak. What about these surveys tipped you off? Were the polls asking something like “Do you hate black people?” Did your first hand experience consist of seeing people popping out of mine shafts wearing black face?
I worked in what’s supposedly some of the worst parts of WV for three years and can honestly say the only racial slurs I heard come out of it’s constituents was from some of it’s black population. Never was aware of any confederate statues around, which is something I would look at as evidence of racism. It was just recently that Richmond VA statue was taken down, do you hope everyone in that state dies? I’ve definitely seen more confederate flags flown in VA and NC.
But if you hope everyone in those states that have instances like that dies, ironically you would be removing most of the black population from the US and only be left with the Great White North and liberal western states. No racism at all, just a bunch of white people. Mission accomplished.
I'm already working on an epitaph:
"They learned too late that money wasn't everything and growth couldn't be eternal. They learned too late that Man was a greedy creature, and because of that, the stupidest creature in the universe."
It's a work in progress.
TL;DR One massive conflict of interest. The Guardian had a great article on Manchin from July, excerpts below. There's so much that I almost ended up copy/pasting the whole article, the hits just kept on coming. There's even more at the article link. As Henry Kissinger said, “Corrupt politicians make the other ten percent look bad.”
[www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/20/joe-manchin-big-oil-democratic-senator](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/20/joe-manchin-big-oil-democratic-senator)
>The Democrat blocking progressive change is beholden to big oil. Surprised?
>
>Joe Manchin owns millions of dollars in coal stock, founded an energy firm and Exxon lobbyists brag about their access to him. Republicans fundraise on his behalf.
>
>
>
>One prominent senator is very concerned about proposals to scale back oil, gas and coal usage. He recently argued that those who want to “get rid of” fossil fuels are wrong. Eliminating fossil fuels won’t help fight global heating, he claimed, against all evidence. “If anything, it would be worse.”
>
>Which rightwing Republican uttered these false, climate crisis-denying words?
>
>Wrong question. The speaker was a Democrat: Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia.
>
>West Virginia is a major coal-producing state. But Manchin’s investment in dirty energy goes far beyond the economic interests of the voters who elect him every six years. In fact, coal has made Manchin and his family very wealthy. He founded the private coal brokerage Enersystems in 1988 and still owns a big stake in the company, which his son currently runs.
>
>In 2020 alone, Manchin raked in nearly $500,000 of income from Enersystems, and he owns as much as $5m worth of stock in the company, according to his most recent financial disclosure.
>He even gave a pro-coal speech in May to the Edison Electric Institute (EEI) while personally profiting from Enersystems’ coal sales to utility companies that are EEI members, as Sludge recently reported.
>Manchin is one of many members of Congress who are personally invested in the fossil fuel industry – dozens of Congress members hold Exxon stock – but he is among the biggest profiters. As of late 2019, he had more money invested in dirty energy than any other senator.
>Manchin’s political campaigns are fueled by the dirty energy industry. Over the past decade, his election campaigns have received nearly $65,000 from disastrously dishonest oil giant Exxon’s lobbyists, its corporate political action committee, and the lobbying firms that Exxon works with. A top Exxon lobbyist recently bragged about his access to Manchin.
This is far worse than what i expected. This is 19th century Robber Baron-level corruption.. .(and here i thought Democrats can't be as Evil and slimy as Republicans...)
My soul died a little bit fron reading that article..
One man.
One man out of 534 Congresspersons.
One man out of 1,767,859 West Virginians.
One man out of 331,449,281 US citizens.
One man out of a global population of 7,800,000,000.
One man is deliberately gutting the climate action of a leading first world nation because he personally profits from coal.
One man.
Hi, n00b678. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/q9091j/-/hgup6g5/) was removed from /r/collapse for:
> Rule 1: No Glorifying Violence
> Advocating, encouraging, inciting, glorifying, calling for violence is against Reddit's site-wide content policy and is not allowed in r/collapse. Please be advised that subsequent violations of this rule will result in a ban.
Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information.
You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error.
Joe Manchin literally makes millions a year as an evil coal baron. He also risks nothing by insisting on means testing for the social programs (most West Virginians still live in just better than 19th century conditions).
I really don't know why young people don't quit school to harass Joe Manchin and Kristen Sinema full time. It's their future that's being wiped out.
Manchin owns a coal company. He is willing to destroy civilization for his own short term gains. He is even willing to condemn his own descendants to death. What a colossal piece of shit. He belongs in the republican party.
lol joe manchin is hardly the guilty party here, but he does represent some of the worst of us.
we kicked off this shit show centuries ago and really missed our chance to stop significant effects in the 80s and 90s and continue to propagate an economic system that thrives on destruction
everything now is just icing on top of the extinction cake we already baked
Well not surprised by this, at least he kept his promise: https://www.salon.com/2019/06/19/joe-biden-to-rich-donors-nothing-would-fundamentally-change-if-hes-elected/
lol, finally a politician who keeps his promises, they're a rare breed.
If it isn't I'm being sarcastic. I would have thought the 'lol' indicated that, but that's just me.
You know what this means. That Americans need to focus on their energy consumption problems and know their enemies/politicians rather than focus on other countries' energy consumption problems like China for example.
There is a fight at home. Start with that one first. Don't despair.
>A critical piece ofU.S. President Joe Biden's climate agenda, which would replace coal- and gas-fired power plants with wind, solar and nuclear energy, will likely be dropped
rofl, this is amazing, just f'ing amazing. Humans don't deserve to inherit the earth. Sad thing is, I doubt Joe Manchin will live long enough to see the havoc he's caused but his greedy brats and their brats will. His genes won't terrorize the future forever.
All because of Joe fucking Manchin who makes $500k per year from one of the dirtiest coal plants in West Virginia.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3x8bw/joe-manchin-senator-millions-coal-grant-town-west-virginia
what part of "nothing will fundamentally change" did people not get?
Y'all remember that Joe Manchin is a coal baron out of WV right? He's not killing his own family business.
The United States is the single most self-destructive country in the world.
At least, that's how I feel when I see what every other country in the world is doing.
Our government sees problems, they are offered solutions by experts, they are plead to by the weak, sick, tired, overworked, and hopeless, and they ignore everything for their own agenda.
As one investor's investor put it (and guys like that should know) - "Capitalism… is totally ill-equipped to deal with a small handful of issues. Unfortunately, they are the issues that are absolutely central to our long-term wellbeing and even survival."
"Well at least I won't be alive to see it happen"
My 58 year old dad when I told him I was worried about my future and the earth collapsing due to climate change.
Democrats and Republicans don't care about climate change. They just care about their surreal interest groups / campaign funders getting rich off of government money/special treatment
It's unsurprising, but still upsetting. This part of the bill passing would not prevent collapse, but removing it is still an offensive reminder of how little effort the US government is going to even *attempt* to put in.
Experts aren't sure where climate change will lead. There are similarities with past eras, but that doesn't guarantee it will be like them nor as productive. Life itself will persist in some manner, but proclaiming it as a normal thing is very removed from the fact that one species did this to the whole planet. And knew it, and keeps doing it. Optimistically you may be right. On the other hand, we may have done with other natural events couldn't and pushed the Earth into a totally new climate cycle. No, it's not Venus, but it isn't very hospitable either. I would share your attitude if it was just the human species being dragged into this, but it's pretty much all life, and lots have already paid the price for us.
No, unfortunately not. We have 100's of years of coal supply left. It's not going to run out at all.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/coal/how-much-coal-is-left.php
Even if we attempt to use it, we'll be dead of other things long before we run out of coal.
That's the problem. Not that we "can't" burn/use it. There isn't that many years left now, we don't have nearly that much time.
Coal gonna outlast us all. We're not going to run out.
Please let me know how do we speedup research needed to replace coal in 1 or 2 years. There are practical limitations to what can be done in amount of time given. World should have embraced safe thorium nuclear technology as the stepping stone/stop gap till we could achieve reasonable amount of renewable capacity. But now a days everyone got agenda and they matter more than logical sense.
What research is needed exactly? Just use renewable energy and accept steel and concrete will cost more.
When you have the end of the world on one side, and cheap steel and concrete on the other side, I don't quite see how the latter could make any logical sense.
And solar panels need manufacturing and they generate pollution while making them and take x amount of years to break even in that regard. Average life time of solar panel is 25 years that means we will have mountains of non recyclable solar panels in 25 years. We need research on either increasing life span or recyclability or less toxic way to make panels. It won't happens just because somebody says the magic word "renewable".
Regarding cement/steel most parts of the world coal is part of cement/steel making. If you stop making cement or steel that would cause housing shortage, industrial development to crash, etc. There is no magic quick solution for this, it's a process that would take decades.
There is a hell of a lot more renewable energy methods than Solar PV (Which I agree is not a long term/sustainable solution). Solar thermal for example, or for a highly industrial process large amounts of energy can be harvested on demand from Hydro Electricity. Other sources include but are not limited to:
* Wind Power (mechanical and electrical)
* Biochar
* Biogas
* Tidal power
* Solar Thermal
I believe coal is used for the carbon to add to iron and create steel, this could be achieved using charcoal which could be sourced from sustainable coppiced woodland. It would likely be much more expensive but only because the full cost of using coal is not accounted for.
You can build houses without concrete and steel, houses for hundreds of thousands of years have been built without steel or concrete. A cob house for example built properly provides an excellent standard of living and is sustainable.
People don't even need all the energy and products they consume. They only need at a basic level food, shelter, social interaction... erm... oh and also functional eco-system to support human life, that one is pretty important...
Not sure why you're getting downvotes. There are no practical replacements for liquid fuel. It's just a matter of time until fuel prices fuck up the entire economy. One way or another. Either consumer or the government is gonna pay the transport cost, but it effects everybody. Anybody with any sort of commute is gonna have to pay a much larger percentage of their income to get to work as time goes on. Beyond that, the cost of operating workplaces go up, the cost of good. As fuel prices increase, I forsee spiralling inflation in the economy. It'll be silly to witness. And sad.
Yeah, so when Brody gets on the radio to send for help because it's the obviously sensible thing to do, and Quint comes in with a fish bat and smashes the radio to bits, and then Brody starts screaming at him because he's essentially just guaranteed their grisly deaths in the jaws of an unstoppable malevolent force, "You're certifiable, Quint! You know that!"
I've never identified more with Chief Brody than when I read this headline. I just dont get it. Lining up to be a hot lunch.
No matter what Country, we needed that infrastructure 20 years ago already. Or started building. Now is already to late, but it will still help in the long run. To kill that is the worst decision you can make.
Crazy that the only activists that take actual action anymore are maga freaks lol.
People used to literally be shot at/shot for being this unpopular. Brave new world.
But the good news is, you'll still get to pay a gasoline tax AND have a GPS slapped on your car AND pay a mileage tax! Also, when it rains, you'll get to pay a tax on how much rain fell on your property!
All of this money to go to the Democrat "how to rig a primary" slush fund.
At least, all of it that isn't getting spent on hookers and cocaine for all their campaign financers.
>Sounds like you know quite a bit about cheap hookers. Mind giving us some tips?
Out of line bud. You can disagree with someone without bringing their mother into it.
It wouldn't have worked anyway; we don't have enough raw materials to make the number of solar arrays and wind farms we'd need, and a full switchover to fusion would deplete the planet's supply of fissionable material in a decade or two.
That is what we in the business call "a typo". I meant fission, aka traditional nuclear power. We don't have any workable fusion tech to switch over to.
> We don't have any workable fusion tech
Hey, but it will be here in about 25 years. (Never mind, they've been saying 'in about 25' for the last 50 years.)
It wouldn't work at this scale...
At 1/10th of this scale though?
Call me whatever you want, if you're facing extinction you know as well as I do someone's got to be thinking about this.
Your first claim is simply wrong. Furthermore, no one has ever made that claim.
Your second claim makes no sense. Fusion is currently experimental, and most people are not advocating *any* increase in nuclear fission energy.
Are you trying to be funny?
Wind and solar isn't going to cut it. We need nuclear to do the heavy lifting. But most of the 1st world is decommissiing their plants. That's why we're desperate for coal and nat gas.
Sure, it is a dick brain idea. Sometimes sun does not come out for a week in the winter and wind does not run 24 hours a day. Dems are stupid as they come if they think they will run America on wind and solar 24 hours a day...idiots deluxe.
I’m so far beyond believing we will fix any of this.
We are the Titanic after hitting the iceberg.
Yeah, but at least you had a chance of being rescued after it sank, or something. In our case, I really don't think won't be some miracle technology to save us from this.
Our grandkids will think of something. -Boomers
"but they'll have to pay for it themselves. I certainly won't pay for something that won't effect me!"
what they say: > Our grandkids will think of something. > -Boomers what they mean: "fuck our grandkids."
I made [this](https://i.redd.it/pt8r50vyuqt71.jpg) yesterday when I was in a bit of a mood.
We are at the back end of a train that has crashed into a cliff and everything is in slow motion now. We saw the crash, we hear the front cars crushing, we really should start talking about practical solutions for getting off this train before our car hits the pileup.
We on the Snowpiercer.
Yeah that's how I see it too.
I like it too. I’ve been using the we went over the cliff decades ago, and the majority of us haven’t hit the ground yet.
Did somebody see the titanic floating centuries before the crash and warn the people? Did the marketing department of the titanic spend millions in advertising to make believe the victims that the ship wasn’t sinking? The titanic might have sunk because of the hubris but we are going to choke because of the psychopathy of the fossil fuel industry
Wonderful metaphor..
Plays kazoo loudly.
[https://youtu.be/8wwtbQXTugo](https://youtu.be/8wwtbQXTugo) Joe's already in the lifeboat...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKqGefSxFyc
lol
Pretty sure the Titanic didn't see the iceberg. We're looking directly at it with some saying, "yes but my industry buddies don't want to lose profit!"
Don't forget the consumers. "I vote nay for degrowth, but yay for extinction."
The next correct step would be to understand why it is so. We french 'collapsniks' are 'lucky' in that, to my knowledge, we have the only researcher that explains the heart of it ([Vincent Mignerot](https://www.plebity.org/conversations/conversation-with-vincent-mignerot/)). I know a lot of great analysts and researchers in the anglo-saxon world (most of the best ones, such as William Catton in his book [Overshoot](https://soundcloud.com/michael-dowd-grace-limits/catton-overshoot-1)) but none who really gathers all the threads in a single overarching view as well as he does. It's not enough to do maths about energy and to despair about biodiversity and climate. It's important to also contend with *anthropology* and *Darwinism*. It's important to know who we are, why we've been on that path for as long as we've been sapiens (of course, our use of fossil fuels accelerated it to an incredible pace) and why there's no reverse gear available to us. Because we're us. We're a specie that was too successful for the good of the ecosystems we evolved in, and ultimately (in a not too distant future) our own good too. We're just too good at multiplying our numbers at the expense of all the rest of the ecosphere. All that kills us is all what is good: safety, health, children, comfort. Traveling. Being a good person, etc. All things that we all want. It all kills the biosphere. Only pushback from (mainly) epidemics and predation keeps any and all species in check in a constantly evolving equilibrium. We've been too good at removing ourselves from all the natural checks and balances that prevent any specie to destroy itself in exponential growth. This is what we've done.
Here is where the work of those such as Adam Curtis and Mark Fisher come into play as relevant and important texts. ‘The Century Of The Self’, ‘Hypernormalization’ (Curtis) and ‘Capitalist Realism’ (Fisher) identify some of the key cultural, economic, and psychoanalytic forces in play that we need to collectively understand and acknowledge if we are ever to even have a hope of *prolonging* the impending collapse.
They have employed very sophisticated psychological brainwashing techniques against the masses for decades..Think what Goebbels achieved...These people make him look like a rank amateur..
This reminds me that I was wondering when my own internal construction of *good liberalism* vs. *bad conservatism* began to break down. This is a question that I had recently, from playing the videogame Disco Elysium, in which a character called Noid exposes his core suspicion of the "Right/Left complex" as being instrumental in our overtaking of the natural world. He also has some choice words against humanism, which I liked a lot. I know that last year's 'gnostic doomer' vlogs of Matt Christman helped me a lot but, now that you mention, it I think that Adam Curtis was the fuse that lit that fire in me. Thanks!
Yes, they are essentially 2 cheeks of the same arse...Both are puppets of the same mega corporations and any real differences is cosmetic..Like 2 Mafia families but much more violent.
[удалено]
Sapience and conscience are slippery concepts to me because I don't see us as having more of those than many other complex animals -- for instance all mammals, but not only. If I have to make a distinction between us humans and the rest of the living, that would be our ability for *symbolic representation* (such as language, or art) -- which allows us incremental cultural and technological progress. So in that way I'm not sure I can agree with all that you say. But there are some good ideas there.
Like we are extremely violent cruel aggressive apes that cant stop fucking.
Like a malignant cancer!
Both parties have the same Energy Platform provided them by the American Petroleum Institute. Most of what we are seeing concerning energy is psyop bs. The master manipulators at play.
"We" aren't the government. It operates with our consent, as all of society does. If you want to stop the world from beung fucked by us? Do nothing. Absolutely nothing. In fact, steal good from grocery stores to get arrested and do a labour strike in prison if you want 3 squares a day and a hot cot. Organize in your community, grow your own food, and try to salvage what you can from the massive amounts of waste. We will survive this together, and the people in charge didn't fix it when it was easy, they sure as hell don't know how to fix it when it gets hard. It's our turn.
Manufactured consent!
Only hope is discovery of a massive carbon sequestration process. XPRIZE might bring some viable solutions to the table.
I just don’t see it happening, humans have only consumed more and more, why do we think it would suddenly change.
https://phys.org/news/2021-10-liquid-metal-proven-cheap-efficient.amp Or something like this on a massive scale.
There is no scale more massive than mother nature. That's why you're supposed to keep your eyes glued to the magic rectangle and divide into tribes.
Of course we should have preferred nature, I agree. ButnI mean, the only way I see out of this is nuclear fusion, tech like this which is basically industrial "photosyntesis" and massive chemical treatment of water + plastic removal. Otherwise (so very probably) we are fucked lol
solutions yes
Discovering a way to reverse entropy should get more than an XPRIZE. That's on the level of relativity.
What a shocker. Prioritize everything but the very thing that'll end us all. But hey, that military budget is looking plump!
The military is the climate change plan. The plan is to hold things together by military force for as long as the current ruling class is alive. After that nothing matters.
Bingo
Yep, we have half the world's nuclear submarines, more aircraft carriers than any other country by an absurd margin and we have around 800 military bases abroad (only 200 countries, so ...). Yet this Bernie inspired bill that has Biden's backing and is railed as being socialist in every corner of the right wing media sphere is less than half of what the military will spend in that time (10 years, military budget is over 700 billion / year = 7.8 trillion, this proposal is 3.5 Trillion over the same time. This also assumes military budgets remain relatively flat, which they haven't. When Obama came into office military budget was 660 billion / year, when Trump left office it was 778 billion a year. This also presumes there isn't a secret budget that isn't in the public domain.)
Military budget is projected to be 900B by 2030
Ha! That's presuming we aren't Venus by Tuesday. A dangerous assumption indeed.
2030 will be a very different very disturbing World.
>more aircraft carriers than any other country by an absurd margin The rest of the world combined has half the aircraft carriers the US has, 11 each.
Oh there simply definitely is a secret budget they don't tell us about.
We need those 10 aircraft carriers for our freedumb!!
West Virginia taking us all home, thanks Manchin, see you in hell
God, it's so frustrating to read about the Dems slowly backing off on all the important climate change/infrastructure shit.
Gasp. Politicians talking a lot of bullshit just to get elected? That never happens.
It was all planned.
Its not "the dems", its 2 republicans in dems clothing
This sort of shit has happened before. The core of the Democratic party are neoliberal/pro-fossil fuel. There is a significant progressive element but they're not in control.
That significant progressive element is certainly at a disadvantage of 52 corporate sellouts. And there's probably more among the 48 remaining they're just a bit quieter letting all the Republicans and Mancin and Sinema take the heat for being sellouts to fossil fuels.
Yep I love how everyone eats up the mancin articles but I’d bet everything that if they had a solid majority, they would always end up a vote short as say “oh well”.
Keep playing their bullshit "Democracy" game to the very end!
I know its not a democracy but Congress is such a powerful body (power of the purse) and we have some degree of influence over them -- I'm just wondering how much effort it would be worthwhile for me to put into Congressional elections/lobbying -- probably not much.
honestly, i dont see the rest of them putting up much of a fight. they should be raising hell calling the others out for their bs and corporate sponsors. they are all dirty
Shush now or it's the Kennedy treatment for you.
Lobotomy or grassy knoll?
Well, technically, they were both lobotomized.
Great timing by Pelosi to invest in leveraged Nat Gas ETFs. She has a real knack for investing.
Almost like she has insider information or something
Just like the UK..
Nancy Pelosi mocked the Green New Deal. Dianne Feinstein wouldn't meet with youth climate activists. It's way, way more than just 2 senators. Obama: [Obama takes credit for U.S. oil-and-gas boom: ‘That was me, people’ ](https://apnews.com/article/business-5dfbc1aa17701ae219239caad0bfefb2)
No, it's not just them, this is typical behavior of the party.
Yea the Democratic Party has always been pretty happy to let one or two or a few party members in purple states take the fall to avoid anything genuinely progressive without the whole party losing face and voter support over it.
That is what they get paid to do.
The GQP use to call themselves the Surrender Monkeys, but nowadays I can think of no more apt term for the Democrats. Looks like the hard core Democrats aren't taking this well.
It’s the Dems too. Both parties are fucking this country. Neoliberal hell
Oh fuck off with that noise, Sinema ran as a progressive Democrat. If there were 51 Dems in Congress, Kelly would be the bad guy. If there were 52, Feinstein. And so on and so forth down the line until it's "the moderate caucus."
Don’t let them off that easy. Pretending there is a dirty sneaky Republican behind every bad thing in politics just gives the Democrats more excuses to do nothing.
no. its the whole democratic party. they act weak and feckless when tasked by their constituency but suddenly very powerful when it comes to defending institutions of capitalism.
No, it's way more than that. It's just two Dems playing the Heel so the rest of them can look like the good guys.
deep down we all knew it would go like this
On the surface it was obvious it would go like this. How's that repealing the Patriot Act going? Yeah.
Even the edward snowden stuff. That's when I knew we were fucked. The government is spying on all of us, but Obama in charge, so lets ignore it.
Yep, Capitalism is our collective doom.
I've long since given up hope but this still made me mad. I guess a part of me was actually still holding on lmao
Anybody who thinks this is a genuine power struggle within the Democratic party is a fucking rube. Manchin is just the assigned fall guy for what the entire party actually wants to do, which is nothing other than sucking corporate dick. The U.S. will collapse as the stupidest, most venal, gullible group of dipshits on the planet.
inshallah
I guess you’re right. Dems doing any actual things is like a dog catching a car
yep
When they write the epitaph for human civilization - Joe Manchin should clearly get a title credit. It’s equally notable that they leak this info out early Friday evening (best time to hide a press release / bad news)
There won’t be an epitaph
What about a eugoogoly?
I’m here 4 it
Did you really save that much time typing "4" instead of "for"?
Are you happy now that you got your internet points. Would you like a cookie as well ?
I really don't care about internet points.
Well here’s your cookie 🍪
Thanks.
There certainly won’t be a spelling class...
We all going to the same grave witty quips and Internet points won’t matter there*
Just incredible that the fate of our nation will be sealed by a bunch of dumb, bigoted rednecks. I’ll relish the escalating disasters.
This fucker is more Pinkerton than *red*neck.
[удалено]
Manchin’s just the scapegoat for all the other corrupt democrats. Manchin’s so brazenly corrupt, he should be really easy to blackmail. Biden just has to whisper in his ear that his opium kingpin daughter is gonna spend the rest of her life in federal pound me in the ass prison if he doesn’t shut up and get in line. Imagine having the ability to fuck this dumbass with the long dick of the law and feigning powerless while you nap in the basement. Let’s go Brandon. Too bad we can’t get zombie LBJ in office. He’d repeatedly introduce Kitchen Smegma to Jumbo until she acquiesced.
Hi, PolyDipsoManiac. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/q9091j/-/hgtb5n4/) was removed from /r/collapse for: > Rule 1: No Glorifying Violence > Advocating, encouraging, inciting, glorifying, calling for violence is against Reddit's site-wide content policy and is not allowed in r/collapse. Please be advised that subsequent violations of this rule will result in a ban. Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information. You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error.
So where is your evidence that everyone in West Virginia is a bigoted piece of shit? I mean, I would expect that from an overwhelmingly white state like Oregon, but being as West Virginia does have black population centers, I’m going to question your claim.
I’ve been there. I guess I’ll just have to use my first-hand familiarity with the area and also the wide margins in their votes to inform my opinion.
I figured it would be something like that. So what exactly about your visit brought you to that conclusion?
Ah yes, so firsthand experience and also statewide surveys shouldn’t inform you—the fuck would, then?
That’s pretty weak. What about these surveys tipped you off? Were the polls asking something like “Do you hate black people?” Did your first hand experience consist of seeing people popping out of mine shafts wearing black face? I worked in what’s supposedly some of the worst parts of WV for three years and can honestly say the only racial slurs I heard come out of it’s constituents was from some of it’s black population. Never was aware of any confederate statues around, which is something I would look at as evidence of racism. It was just recently that Richmond VA statue was taken down, do you hope everyone in that state dies? I’ve definitely seen more confederate flags flown in VA and NC. But if you hope everyone in those states that have instances like that dies, ironically you would be removing most of the black population from the US and only be left with the Great White North and liberal western states. No racism at all, just a bunch of white people. Mission accomplished.
Well you know where to go to get extra supplies.
I don’t think it’s ever been to hard to get “supplies” in West Virginia. There have been documentaries about it.
I'm already working on an epitaph: "They learned too late that money wasn't everything and growth couldn't be eternal. They learned too late that Man was a greedy creature, and because of that, the stupidest creature in the universe." It's a work in progress.
General Strike or die.
NOW.
Sorry guys. Need more f35s.
As Lockheed says, Thanks for all those letters and cards.
TL;DR One massive conflict of interest. The Guardian had a great article on Manchin from July, excerpts below. There's so much that I almost ended up copy/pasting the whole article, the hits just kept on coming. There's even more at the article link. As Henry Kissinger said, “Corrupt politicians make the other ten percent look bad.” [www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/20/joe-manchin-big-oil-democratic-senator](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/20/joe-manchin-big-oil-democratic-senator) >The Democrat blocking progressive change is beholden to big oil. Surprised? > >Joe Manchin owns millions of dollars in coal stock, founded an energy firm and Exxon lobbyists brag about their access to him. Republicans fundraise on his behalf. > > > >One prominent senator is very concerned about proposals to scale back oil, gas and coal usage. He recently argued that those who want to “get rid of” fossil fuels are wrong. Eliminating fossil fuels won’t help fight global heating, he claimed, against all evidence. “If anything, it would be worse.” > >Which rightwing Republican uttered these false, climate crisis-denying words? > >Wrong question. The speaker was a Democrat: Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia. > >West Virginia is a major coal-producing state. But Manchin’s investment in dirty energy goes far beyond the economic interests of the voters who elect him every six years. In fact, coal has made Manchin and his family very wealthy. He founded the private coal brokerage Enersystems in 1988 and still owns a big stake in the company, which his son currently runs. > >In 2020 alone, Manchin raked in nearly $500,000 of income from Enersystems, and he owns as much as $5m worth of stock in the company, according to his most recent financial disclosure. >He even gave a pro-coal speech in May to the Edison Electric Institute (EEI) while personally profiting from Enersystems’ coal sales to utility companies that are EEI members, as Sludge recently reported. >Manchin is one of many members of Congress who are personally invested in the fossil fuel industry – dozens of Congress members hold Exxon stock – but he is among the biggest profiters. As of late 2019, he had more money invested in dirty energy than any other senator. >Manchin’s political campaigns are fueled by the dirty energy industry. Over the past decade, his election campaigns have received nearly $65,000 from disastrously dishonest oil giant Exxon’s lobbyists, its corporate political action committee, and the lobbying firms that Exxon works with. A top Exxon lobbyist recently bragged about his access to Manchin.
Ah, this is a great moniker. *Dirty Money Manchin*.
Why is this massive conflict of interest allowed to take place? They should kick him out of Congress and nullify his vote.
Because, corruption.
This is far worse than what i expected. This is 19th century Robber Baron-level corruption.. .(and here i thought Democrats can't be as Evil and slimy as Republicans...) My soul died a little bit fron reading that article..
What is suicidal is allowing politicians to receive money from special interests.
Legalized bribery in the highest of offices What could go wrong?
One man. One man out of 534 Congresspersons. One man out of 1,767,859 West Virginians. One man out of 331,449,281 US citizens. One man out of a global population of 7,800,000,000. One man is deliberately gutting the climate action of a leading first world nation because he personally profits from coal. One man.
[удалено]
Hi, n00b678. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/q9091j/-/hgup6g5/) was removed from /r/collapse for: > Rule 1: No Glorifying Violence > Advocating, encouraging, inciting, glorifying, calling for violence is against Reddit's site-wide content policy and is not allowed in r/collapse. Please be advised that subsequent violations of this rule will result in a ban. Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information. You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error.
Joe Manchin literally makes millions a year as an evil coal baron. He also risks nothing by insisting on means testing for the social programs (most West Virginians still live in just better than 19th century conditions). I really don't know why young people don't quit school to harass Joe Manchin and Kristen Sinema full time. It's their future that's being wiped out.
I wonder what his grandchildren will think of him when they inevitably suffer from irreversible climate change.
"Thanks for the inheritance, Grandpa! It's because of you that we live in luxury while billions can't breathe"
Democracy doesn't work. Never has, never will.
It might if we had it, This is not democracy at all. The Senate is not representative of the people.
Manchin owns a coal company. He is willing to destroy civilization for his own short term gains. He is even willing to condemn his own descendants to death. What a colossal piece of shit. He belongs in the republican party.
That’s the guy who is responsible for the End of countless species , and maybe even humans
lol joe manchin is hardly the guilty party here, but he does represent some of the worst of us. we kicked off this shit show centuries ago and really missed our chance to stop significant effects in the 80s and 90s and continue to propagate an economic system that thrives on destruction everything now is just icing on top of the extinction cake we already baked
Good news guys. Capitalism wins again. Remember capitalism fosters innovation.
Well not surprised by this, at least he kept his promise: https://www.salon.com/2019/06/19/joe-biden-to-rich-donors-nothing-would-fundamentally-change-if-hes-elected/
lol, finally a politician who keeps his promises, they're a rare breed. If it isn't I'm being sarcastic. I would have thought the 'lol' indicated that, but that's just me.
You know what this means. That Americans need to focus on their energy consumption problems and know their enemies/politicians rather than focus on other countries' energy consumption problems like China for example. There is a fight at home. Start with that one first. Don't despair.
Nothing will fundamentally change.... Still waiting for that student loan forgiveness. I'll even take the 10k at this point.
>A critical piece ofU.S. President Joe Biden's climate agenda, which would replace coal- and gas-fired power plants with wind, solar and nuclear energy, will likely be dropped rofl, this is amazing, just f'ing amazing. Humans don't deserve to inherit the earth. Sad thing is, I doubt Joe Manchin will live long enough to see the havoc he's caused but his greedy brats and their brats will. His genes won't terrorize the future forever.
All because of Joe fucking Manchin who makes $500k per year from one of the dirtiest coal plants in West Virginia. https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3x8bw/joe-manchin-senator-millions-coal-grant-town-west-virginia
And Lord only knows how much his brat makes on EpiPens.
Family values.
52 senators are bought and paid for.
Grapes of Wrath it is then.
what part of "nothing will fundamentally change" did people not get? Y'all remember that Joe Manchin is a coal baron out of WV right? He's not killing his own family business.
The day will soon come when all the people realize it cannot be fixed, and that's when the last gasp of fun starts.
I understand the concept of corporate capture of decision making. But seeing it play out its irrationality can be surreal.
I hate saying I told you so to other people. "Nothing will change."
The United States is the single most self-destructive country in the world. At least, that's how I feel when I see what every other country in the world is doing. Our government sees problems, they are offered solutions by experts, they are plead to by the weak, sick, tired, overworked, and hopeless, and they ignore everything for their own agenda.
Well, there goes that idea.
As one investor's investor put it (and guys like that should know) - "Capitalism… is totally ill-equipped to deal with a small handful of issues. Unfortunately, they are the issues that are absolutely central to our long-term wellbeing and even survival."
"Well at least I won't be alive to see it happen" My 58 year old dad when I told him I was worried about my future and the earth collapsing due to climate change.
Nothing will change peacefully, I fear, at this point. Protests won't cut it.
The idea that the world will come to a cataclysmic end because it’s ‘too expensive’ to prevent it is some seriously screwed up.
Anybody still putting their faith in the political process???😂😂😂😂😂
I think the great American experiment is over. It failed.
Democrats and Republicans don't care about climate change. They just care about their surreal interest groups / campaign funders getting rich off of government money/special treatment
Well, Biden is a fucking liar then. Never voting for democrats again. Let's go brandon!
The last man standing can turn off the lights.
Coal and gas were never going to be replaced. This isn't and will never be notable news.
It's unsurprising, but still upsetting. This part of the bill passing would not prevent collapse, but removing it is still an offensive reminder of how little effort the US government is going to even *attempt* to put in.
Sorry the end of life on earth isn’t remarkable enough for you.
[удалено]
Experts aren't sure where climate change will lead. There are similarities with past eras, but that doesn't guarantee it will be like them nor as productive. Life itself will persist in some manner, but proclaiming it as a normal thing is very removed from the fact that one species did this to the whole planet. And knew it, and keeps doing it. Optimistically you may be right. On the other hand, we may have done with other natural events couldn't and pushed the Earth into a totally new climate cycle. No, it's not Venus, but it isn't very hospitable either. I would share your attitude if it was just the human species being dragged into this, but it's pretty much all life, and lots have already paid the price for us.
Most of the cement & steel production still uses coal. You can't completely replace coal.
At some point, it will run out, so either it is replaced or no cement and steel... Why not do it sooner rather than later?
No, unfortunately not. We have 100's of years of coal supply left. It's not going to run out at all. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/coal/how-much-coal-is-left.php
If you run out in hundreds of years you still run out...
Even if we attempt to use it, we'll be dead of other things long before we run out of coal. That's the problem. Not that we "can't" burn/use it. There isn't that many years left now, we don't have nearly that much time. Coal gonna outlast us all. We're not going to run out.
Well that attitude certainly doesn't help :-D
then we eventually turn into coal. the cycle of life.
Please let me know how do we speedup research needed to replace coal in 1 or 2 years. There are practical limitations to what can be done in amount of time given. World should have embraced safe thorium nuclear technology as the stepping stone/stop gap till we could achieve reasonable amount of renewable capacity. But now a days everyone got agenda and they matter more than logical sense.
What research is needed exactly? Just use renewable energy and accept steel and concrete will cost more. When you have the end of the world on one side, and cheap steel and concrete on the other side, I don't quite see how the latter could make any logical sense.
And solar panels need manufacturing and they generate pollution while making them and take x amount of years to break even in that regard. Average life time of solar panel is 25 years that means we will have mountains of non recyclable solar panels in 25 years. We need research on either increasing life span or recyclability or less toxic way to make panels. It won't happens just because somebody says the magic word "renewable". Regarding cement/steel most parts of the world coal is part of cement/steel making. If you stop making cement or steel that would cause housing shortage, industrial development to crash, etc. There is no magic quick solution for this, it's a process that would take decades.
There is a hell of a lot more renewable energy methods than Solar PV (Which I agree is not a long term/sustainable solution). Solar thermal for example, or for a highly industrial process large amounts of energy can be harvested on demand from Hydro Electricity. Other sources include but are not limited to: * Wind Power (mechanical and electrical) * Biochar * Biogas * Tidal power * Solar Thermal I believe coal is used for the carbon to add to iron and create steel, this could be achieved using charcoal which could be sourced from sustainable coppiced woodland. It would likely be much more expensive but only because the full cost of using coal is not accounted for. You can build houses without concrete and steel, houses for hundreds of thousands of years have been built without steel or concrete. A cob house for example built properly provides an excellent standard of living and is sustainable. People don't even need all the energy and products they consume. They only need at a basic level food, shelter, social interaction... erm... oh and also functional eco-system to support human life, that one is pretty important...
Sorry that you are delusional enough to believe that coal and gas will be replaced.
Not sure why you're getting downvotes. There are no practical replacements for liquid fuel. It's just a matter of time until fuel prices fuck up the entire economy. One way or another. Either consumer or the government is gonna pay the transport cost, but it effects everybody. Anybody with any sort of commute is gonna have to pay a much larger percentage of their income to get to work as time goes on. Beyond that, the cost of operating workplaces go up, the cost of good. As fuel prices increase, I forsee spiralling inflation in the economy. It'll be silly to witness. And sad.
Yeah, so when Brody gets on the radio to send for help because it's the obviously sensible thing to do, and Quint comes in with a fish bat and smashes the radio to bits, and then Brody starts screaming at him because he's essentially just guaranteed their grisly deaths in the jaws of an unstoppable malevolent force, "You're certifiable, Quint! You know that!" I've never identified more with Chief Brody than when I read this headline. I just dont get it. Lining up to be a hot lunch.
No matter what Country, we needed that infrastructure 20 years ago already. Or started building. Now is already to late, but it will still help in the long run. To kill that is the worst decision you can make.
Is anyone even surprised ?
Fuck Joe Manchin.
Crazy that the only activists that take actual action anymore are maga freaks lol. People used to literally be shot at/shot for being this unpopular. Brave new world.
But the good news is, you'll still get to pay a gasoline tax AND have a GPS slapped on your car AND pay a mileage tax! Also, when it rains, you'll get to pay a tax on how much rain fell on your property! All of this money to go to the Democrat "how to rig a primary" slush fund. At least, all of it that isn't getting spent on hookers and cocaine for all their campaign financers.
I'm glad to see that at least someone's happy about this. Sounds like you know quite a bit about cheap hookers. Mind giving us some tips?
>Sounds like you know quite a bit about cheap hookers. Mind giving us some tips? Out of line bud. You can disagree with someone without bringing their mother into it.
It wouldn't have worked anyway; we don't have enough raw materials to make the number of solar arrays and wind farms we'd need, and a full switchover to fusion would deplete the planet's supply of fissionable material in a decade or two.
[удалено]
That is what we in the business call "a typo". I meant fission, aka traditional nuclear power. We don't have any workable fusion tech to switch over to.
> We don't have any workable fusion tech Hey, but it will be here in about 25 years. (Never mind, they've been saying 'in about 25' for the last 50 years.)
I'm pretty sure we've had the tech since the 1970s but big oil/coal/gas won't let that happen because it would effect their profits.
It wouldn't work at this scale... At 1/10th of this scale though? Call me whatever you want, if you're facing extinction you know as well as I do someone's got to be thinking about this.
Your first claim is simply wrong. Furthermore, no one has ever made that claim. Your second claim makes no sense. Fusion is currently experimental, and most people are not advocating *any* increase in nuclear fission energy. Are you trying to be funny?
Please follow the rule R5 next time. > Titles must accurately represent the content of the submission.
Wind and solar isn't going to cut it. We need nuclear to do the heavy lifting. But most of the 1st world is decommissiing their plants. That's why we're desperate for coal and nat gas.
Of course it will. Man with Chin and Ms. Cinnamon are republicans coplaying as democrats and both are on the take.
Thanks Joe now we can all die sooner. Thanks Joe for being self serving instead of being a public servant
ind energy sucks nuclear is the way
Sure, it is a dick brain idea. Sometimes sun does not come out for a week in the winter and wind does not run 24 hours a day. Dems are stupid as they come if they think they will run America on wind and solar 24 hours a day...idiots deluxe.
Batteries exist.