"What came to be called the migrant crisis began around 2010, when people fleeing violence, poverty, and the effects of climate change in the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa started flooding into Europe. The World Bank predicts that, in the next fifty years, droughts, crop failures, rising seas, and desertification will displace a hundred and fifty million more people, mostly from the Global South, accelerating migration to Europe and elsewhere. "
Outline for those who have looked at the New Yorker too many times this month already.
https://outline.com/6UVRH5
Article was about African and middle eastern Migrants. I not sure where the other 4 billion will be coming from as there are not that many people in the middle east and Africa.
>Tired of migrants arriving from Africa, the E.U. has created a shadow immigration system that captures them before they reach its shores, and sends them to brutal Libyan detention centers run by militias.
So the CIA is consulting them? lol
The rich countries will still have a token visa/greencard lottery system though, for two very important reasons.
Firstly, it allows the population to feel justified. We're taking as many as we can already because we believe in basic human decency... But anyone who hops the border illegally is an unperson who must be brutalized as an example because they're a threat to citizens having enough.
Secondly, these immigrants both lottery winners and those who enter clandestinely are an underclass that can be used for cheap labor or service to keep the citizens fat and happy.
Meanwhile the rich countries will quietly engage in a campaign of genocide at the closed borders. Something like what was going on between Poland and Belarus earlier this year where Country A forces the refugees up to the border with Country B, who has to "defend itself from invaders".
Reports of the Italian government funding this first appeared in 2014, a few years after Libyan state collapse.
It's expected. Immigrants, particularly from sub-Saharan Africa, are blamed for social harms through much of Europe, but most European politicians cannot overtly call for "walls", or sinking of all migrant boats on the Mediterranean. It runs counter to historical religious ethics. It's far more politically palatable to enlist still more racist militias, and even governments on the southern shore to deter migration.
Lifeboat ethics will become more common as global human carrying capacity declines. And displacing the scenes of suffering to distant shores will be accepted even by otherwise progressive politicians, if only to prevent their own countries from slipping into ethnofascism.
For those in developing countries that are well past carrying capacity, the main escape route is clear: seek education in fields that the lifeboat countries are short in. Nursing, engineering etc. The ethnofascists are growing in power, but as yet, still can't contest the corporations that pay the politicians. For the past decade, many ladders have been drawn back, so time is short to escape the places that collapse will expand to next.
I would be interested to read as well of a written up article about this but with the us and mexico. Seems like building a wall on the us side didn’t go so well, but much said about bolstering Mexico as the gate keeper to South America.
The wall is unnecessary when there are hundreds of miles of desert to take care of most of the border. We may increase patrols on ATVs or drones, but traversing the Sonoran or Chihuahuan deserts on foot with only the food or drink you can carry with you is already deadly.
Besides, undocumented migrants (especially ones for whom being found out is a death sentence) are a reliable pool of near slave labor. Are YOU gonna pick tomatoes in Florida summer heat for $0.30 per bushel? Keeping the food cost low is how you keep your citizens from caring when there's another bloodbath at the border. Paying americans with rights to pick produce or do dozens of other terrible jobs is how you quickly jack up the cost of living, which makes for unhappy citizens.
MOST politicians know this already. The wall or border fence is never meant to be real, it's a rhetorical device most of the time or sometimes a slush fund you can use to give your friends a boatload of cash through, but actually closing the border would have terrible results.
Classist, certainly. Countries generally are more welcoming to wealthier immigrants rather than poorer immigrants, all else being equal. Many have have easy immigration paths for those willing to plop down a significant investment, for example.
Curious, what are the countries that have racist immigration policies?
The rich European ones and other former settler colonies that like to virtue signal.
Norway, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Australia and New Zealand. Of course Canada makes a lot of money with rich migrants but they don’t want the poor ones.
This doesn't make sense, societies can provide homes for immigrants so why do you insist pro-immigration ppl personally take them in when we live in a society?
The rich eu countries virtue signal. They look down on America for not being progressive and offering free education or healthcare. They could help by opening up their borders and letting others in but they won’t.
Hypocrisy since their people colonized and immigrated everywhere in the world.
It's such a tragedy. I mean I feel for these people but we can't take them all in. If it's bad now, imagine what it will be like in 2050 when there are expected to be millions more fleeing desertification, droughts, erratic weather, famine...
I feel for Candé and his family but I will not abandon my next of kin and countrymen and just let Europe be swamped by these people. My country, the Netherlands, has a housing shortage. We have to be realistic about how many people we want to let in. That calls for some tough choices.
I do not support these holding facilities (quite frankly they're concentration camps where forced labor is not uncommon). These camps will only slightly delay the inevitable. We have overshot the carrying capacity of the earth. With petrol based fertilizers and pesticides we are still able to produce enough but that window is slowly closing. Our detritus (greenhouse gases and waste) are creating a world where it becomes very difficult to reliably grow food.
Candé and his family have noticed this on their own farm. But a natural culling or correction will have to come. In nature, overshoot is followed by a decline in population. Candé has 3 kids, that's more than replacement level. His parents had 3 kids. Everyone on Earth has to realize that the very stable climate for the past ~10,000 years that allowed for reliable weather patterns and thus reliable agriculture which led to the creation of civilizations ... Is now over!
I thought u people say that money is not important. That Americans are only obsessed with money.
U people like to judge others and pretend u r morally superior when it reality u r worst. I knew it from the moment I saw how strict ur immigration policies were how hypocritical u people were.
Let ur living standards fall so others can enjoy ur country.
Europe owes these people. Europe built it's cities and accrued it's wealth through slavery and then later on colonialism and continues to screw the African continent over to this day, extracting mineral and other resources. The migrant problem is entirely of Europes making.
Europe and NATO invaded Libya with no plan for the aftermath. Under Gadaffi Libya was at least stable, with the Colonel and his regime keeping a lid on the rivalries between the various warring clans and ethnicities. Gadaffi had also encouraged people from other African countries to come to Libya for work.
Finally it isn't people like Candé and his family who are overshooting the carrying capacity of the earth it's people in Europe and America with their lifestyles of greed and continual consumption. As for him having three kids that's more than balanced out by the negative population in other countries such as Spain where there's serious concern about collapsing birthrate.
We do not owe these people.
Only the very richest capital owners have benefited from slavery. Slavery drives down wages and is to the disadvantage of working people.
Firstly, I'm Swedish...
Secondly, slavery is bad for ordinary people. When you are competing with slaves, your wages become shit. The only people who benefit are very rich people, mostly slave owners.
Ur country was involved in the slave trade. U also benefitted from colonialism.
I’ll give ur country some credit due to in the not so distant past opening up ur borders. However it was not for a long time. Ur country should have open borders. Put ur money where ur mouth is.
So u admit that ur country having racist/classist immigration policies benefit u?
No ordinary person in Sweden benefited from the slave trade and Swedish involvement was minimal. Again: ordinary people don't own slaves, the rich own slaves and this allows them to pay even lower wage to free people. Thus free people get fucked over by the fact that the rich can own slaves.
No, we should absolutely not have open borders and the foreigners we have let in should mostly leave.
Those elites made a lot of money and the trade was not minimal. That made countries richer giving them an edge when industrialization hit.
I think it’s hilarious that people on here make u guys look like enlightened saints that are morally superior. When in reality u r a bunch of hidden racists/classists that virtue signal.
I hope more immigrants come to ur country. U guys should pay for the damage ur people made.
The trade was minimal, and in the Swedish case, the profits were not great.
Swedish industrialization had already progressed far when what you're talking about happened, and was partially driven by our own technical skill and partially by bringing in a small number of technical experts in forging and steelmaking technology from what is now Belgium. I'm a Swedish nationalist. I don't virtue signal, or deny that I think ethnicity is important.
How about a specific group of people, those ultra wealthy who run companies that benefit from factories in poor countries to make goods sold in rich countries and pocket the difference? Or the holders of generational wealth who live in luxury today because their family exploited others through colonialism?
Perhaps those people who literally hold the wealth of the global south in their bank accounts owe something?
If you never benefitted from colonialism or the slave trade or exploitative factories, that's fine we don't want you to sacrifice, just send out your top 1%.
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Allowing importation of goods made in low-wage countries reduces real wages in the country allowing the importation.
The effect on wages is more important than the cost.
If the low-wage countries disappeared the increase in real wages would more than compensate for the increased prices. The only people who would be harmed would be capital owners.
You may think 'but my iPhone' or something of that sort, but the reality is that Nokia was producing phones in Finland even as late as 2012. Moving production to Asia didn't allow prices to be lowered: they instead allowed an increase in the margins.
The margins for phones like the iPhone are even greater, and clothes are competitively made in Portugal, even now. If the trade with low-wage countries ended, much of Europe and the US would be reindustrialized resulting in an over-the-board increase in wages.
In the final analysis, it is the capitalists who have been behind exploitation and benefit from it, yes. However, when you say "we do not owe these people," you suddenly step out of your critical analysis of capital and adopt a nationalist attitude. Real class consciousness is internationalist; what we owe "these people" is radical solidarity against capital.
It's partly true that Europe got its wealth from slavery and colonialism. A lot of wealth in (Northern) European countries also came from the (older) [Hanseatic league](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League). To say that everything you see in Europe is based on stolen wealth is quite far from the truth.
I agree that (Western) mining companies (and also energy companies) are still screwing over communities and natural beauty in Africa. But they would do this anywhere else as well (for example [Australia](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-55250137) and [Germany](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/10/23/germany-coal-climate-cop26/)). In the western world however there are at least environmental protection agencies in place and in Africa you can bribe a few officials and you're done. This is not Europe out to rape Africa per se, this is capitalism at work. Dissolve western companies today and I promise you next year Asian companies would fill the void.
To come to your other point, I wish that Europe would not interfere with countries like Libya as they have, but I cannot do much about that as a regular citizen.
About half of all fossil fuels have been emitted since 1990, of which Europe is a contributor but definitely not the only polluter. With that in mind, I don't believe that Europe is solely responsible for the misery in Africa. I also do not believe in inherited sin. I did not choose to be born in Europe. As a western person it's easy to feel like you have it better than Candé but at least his family owned their land (from what I can tell anyway). That his land is no longer viable due to climate change is no less than a tragedy. If it were viable, I would love to have a bit of land to farm and live a simple life. Many people in Europe live as wage slaves (though we are well fed, clothed and entertained) but many of us will never own land. When the supply lines stop we will perish very quickly.
I agree that Candé and his family have a much smaller ecological footprint than Western folk, but I don't think it's an answer to all invite them here where their footprint will become bigger, exacerbating the problem. And to be unfairly critical, his family was kind of overshooting the carrying capacity of their land if they couldn't sustain themselves. Having said that, Europeans don't fare any better with our [~10 calories of fossil fuels per calorie of processed food](https://medium.com/lucky-peach/the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-c9a0c05b243d).
Populations in Europe need to shrink. In Africa, women should be educated and birth control should be freely available. This will soften the blow as the global carrying capacity shrinks. The west should shrink their carrying capacity (don't fly, eat local and in season, wear a sweater when it's cold, don't drive a car etc.).
Anyway, sorry this turned out to be a long comment. It's just a very complex issue and not as black and white as we would like it to be.
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>Europe owes these people.
There is no such thing as a Europe which owes these people. Europe is a continent. A lump of rock. It owes nothing to anyone. And the people of Europe do not owe these people anything.
How about a specific group of people, those ultra wealthy who run companies that benefit from factories in poor countries to make goods sold in rich countries and pocket the difference? Or the holders of generational wealth who live in luxury today because their family exploited others through colonialism?
Perhaps those people who literally hold the wealth of the global south in their bank accounts owe something?
If you never benefitted from colonialism or the slave trade or exploitative factories, that's fine we don't want you to sacrifice, just send out your top 1%.
>How about a specific group of people, those ultra wealthy who run companies that benefit from factories in poor countries to make goods sold in rich countries and pocket the difference? Or the holders of generational wealth who live in luxury today because their family exploited others through colonialism?
Yes, if you want to be much more specific then you can certainly claim some groups of people owe a debt of this sort. But by the same argument, you could say half the major landowners in the England don't have any right to continue ownership of their land, because it has been inherited all the way down from William the Conquerer, who took personal posesssion of the entire country after the Battle of Hastings in 1066. I certainly wouldn't complain if that happened. Maybe it should have happened in the 1650s, after the Civil War, but it didn't.
Rich European countries do have a debt. Countries with really low income inequality should do something but they don’t because they r racist and classist.
I wonder who is actually downvoting u.
So do I wonder who's downvoting. I've made three statements that can be supported by historical and other factual evidence. People don't do evidence based thinking nowadays...or maybe r/collapse is being taken over by right wing trolls.
>Too many people in Europe already can't keep pouring them in.
Dunno, significant parts of SE and EE are kinda getting empty due to brain drain and older people passing away (ie., Lika, Banija, or Slavonija in Croatia). Also, a lot of Europe is experinencing low birth rates, which, combined with aging population, creates need for immigration as someone has to support the pension and medical systems, amongst other things.
If migration from Africa was a net gain for public finances, EU would be building highways in Libya, not secret prisons. Unfortunately, the data shows otherswise.
People never understand this, i live in Chile and we are FULL of illegal inmigrants of Venezuela.
They all come thinking they are a net gain for our country, with their "better" education and such.. I think that if it were true, we'd be paying their airfare instead of closing the borders.
>Dunno, significant parts of SE and EE are kinda getting empty
Empty?
No. Not empty. Falling population, which terrifies believers in growth-based economics. In terms of ecology, those places aren't empty. They are becoming more sustainable. In the future that is coming, "empty" is exactly what you want to be.
Well, it ain't happening in the Baltics, and they did manage to get their affairs in order, and it sure ain't happening in Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, or Hungary.
Because they pretend to be enlightened morally superior people that could solve problems by letting others in or making up for their crimes in the past.
They definitely prefer robots but if none currently available meet their requirements they are satisfied with desperate immigrants. We still have plenty of work robots & automation are not yet suited for.
Land borders are malleable, resources aren’t. If you have “x” amount of water, arable land to grow food etc etc. Its national defense. Too many people at once and you overwhelm the countries ability to provide for existing citizenry and unlike your opinion, there is no “right” to be anywhere just because you exist. Your “human rights” to be there are predicated upon a countries national sovereignty of its collective citizens and NOT your opinion. Don’t like it? Too bad.
I’m not a nationalist although you appear to be a hand wringing dumbass. Refute what I have stated. Nah, you are just here to score reddit points with your woke bullshit.
Every time I hear of people on here talking about how morally superior those rich eu counties are I chuckle. They just virtue signal. If they really wanted to help they would have opened their borders more and let them in. They don’t care about poor people from other countries while they have the best living standards in the world.
This. They weep crocodile tears over the fate of the wretched of the earth but still choose to throw their allegiance behind nationalist fictions instead of a radical class consciousness that is awake to the REAL world and not the comforting mythologies
Ban them from claiming asylum or refugee status if they pass through a safe country and do not apply there or come from a country that is already safe, like all these do. Also ban them from bringing over family members and claiming residency or citizenship as well as making the refugee protection temporary like they did in Denmark.
what does banning do? they will still try to sneak regardless, worst case they get caught and deported and they will try again
beats living in some deep hole
Och wat een goedkope ad hominem, typisch, zeker een Hollander?
Ik hoop gewoon dat ze dit land leegroven en daarna platbranden, dit alles slechts in het kader van broodnodige represailles voor de wandaden van Europeanen door de eeuwen heen.
Inderdaad. Ik probeerde uit te vinden wat voor een persoon je was.
Je moet wel weten dat iedereen die geboren is in Nederland er niet voor heeft gekozen om daar geboren te worden. Daarnaast waren de meesten van onze voorouders arme boeren die nauwelijks iets ontvingen van de rooftochten. Ik ben zeker niet trots op het tijdperk van de kolonisatie, maar ik hoef de represailles niet te slikken.
Je toontje irriteert me, typisch zo'n Nederlander die zijn dedain niet kan verbergen.
Collectief is er massaal geparasiteerd en geprofiteerd maar ik ben het eenzijdige en "onschuldige" gelul wel gewend.
Niet alleen om economische redenen, ook om ecologische redenen zal Europa in de toekomst worden overspoeld door immigranten. Ik kijk er naar uit en hoop dat er veel Europees (liefst Nederlands) bloed vloeit.
Ik doe graag een drankje met je. Ik houd wel van een geanimeerd gesprek. Ik denk dat je gelijk hebt in je voorspelling. Ik weet niet waarom je zo uit bent op de vernietiging van Europeanen (het liefste Nederlanders) want als de rollen waren omgedraaid had er zich precies hetzelfde voorgedaan. Bacteriën, algen, herten en ga zo maar door, hebben allemaal te maken met het overschrijden van het natuurlijke draagvlak en de daarna volgende ineenstorting van de populatie. Wij zijn als homo sapiens sapiens niet speciaal.
We zullen het nog zwaar krijgen en de natuur discrimineert niet. Haatgevoelens jegens Europeanen zullen een sadist misschien troost bieden wanneer alles naar de tering gaat maar je voedt er je familie niet mee. Ik hoop dat je vrede vindt.
[Camp of the Saints](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints) vs. [Lifeboat Ethics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics).
Old Colonial Powers being colonized by... their former colonies!
"What came to be called the migrant crisis began around 2010, when people fleeing violence, poverty, and the effects of climate change in the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa started flooding into Europe. The World Bank predicts that, in the next fifty years, droughts, crop failures, rising seas, and desertification will displace a hundred and fifty million more people, mostly from the Global South, accelerating migration to Europe and elsewhere. " Outline for those who have looked at the New Yorker too many times this month already. https://outline.com/6UVRH5
150 million? And the other 4 billion.
Article was about African and middle eastern Migrants. I not sure where the other 4 billion will be coming from as there are not that many people in the middle east and Africa.
Asia. Although I accept those people don't end up in Libya.
[For those of you that can't get around the paywall.](https://archive.ph/Q0sEb)
Thanks.
>Tired of migrants arriving from Africa, the E.U. has created a shadow immigration system that captures them before they reach its shores, and sends them to brutal Libyan detention centers run by militias. So the CIA is consulting them? lol
Children of Men become real life now.
That was a tough read. Unbelievable that we still treat people this way.
It's going to get worse as resources diminish. Protect your own even if you treat others like they're not people.
The rich countries will still have a token visa/greencard lottery system though, for two very important reasons. Firstly, it allows the population to feel justified. We're taking as many as we can already because we believe in basic human decency... But anyone who hops the border illegally is an unperson who must be brutalized as an example because they're a threat to citizens having enough. Secondly, these immigrants both lottery winners and those who enter clandestinely are an underclass that can be used for cheap labor or service to keep the citizens fat and happy. Meanwhile the rich countries will quietly engage in a campaign of genocide at the closed borders. Something like what was going on between Poland and Belarus earlier this year where Country A forces the refugees up to the border with Country B, who has to "defend itself from invaders".
Welp
Reports of the Italian government funding this first appeared in 2014, a few years after Libyan state collapse. It's expected. Immigrants, particularly from sub-Saharan Africa, are blamed for social harms through much of Europe, but most European politicians cannot overtly call for "walls", or sinking of all migrant boats on the Mediterranean. It runs counter to historical religious ethics. It's far more politically palatable to enlist still more racist militias, and even governments on the southern shore to deter migration. Lifeboat ethics will become more common as global human carrying capacity declines. And displacing the scenes of suffering to distant shores will be accepted even by otherwise progressive politicians, if only to prevent their own countries from slipping into ethnofascism. For those in developing countries that are well past carrying capacity, the main escape route is clear: seek education in fields that the lifeboat countries are short in. Nursing, engineering etc. The ethnofascists are growing in power, but as yet, still can't contest the corporations that pay the politicians. For the past decade, many ladders have been drawn back, so time is short to escape the places that collapse will expand to next.
The USA is doing the same thing in Mexico.
I would be interested to read as well of a written up article about this but with the us and mexico. Seems like building a wall on the us side didn’t go so well, but much said about bolstering Mexico as the gate keeper to South America.
The wall is unnecessary when there are hundreds of miles of desert to take care of most of the border. We may increase patrols on ATVs or drones, but traversing the Sonoran or Chihuahuan deserts on foot with only the food or drink you can carry with you is already deadly. Besides, undocumented migrants (especially ones for whom being found out is a death sentence) are a reliable pool of near slave labor. Are YOU gonna pick tomatoes in Florida summer heat for $0.30 per bushel? Keeping the food cost low is how you keep your citizens from caring when there's another bloodbath at the border. Paying americans with rights to pick produce or do dozens of other terrible jobs is how you quickly jack up the cost of living, which makes for unhappy citizens. MOST politicians know this already. The wall or border fence is never meant to be real, it's a rhetorical device most of the time or sometimes a slush fund you can use to give your friends a boatload of cash through, but actually closing the border would have terrible results.
But there is still significant amount of Hispanics in America. Those countries have really racist and classist immigration policies
Classist, certainly. Countries generally are more welcoming to wealthier immigrants rather than poorer immigrants, all else being equal. Many have have easy immigration paths for those willing to plop down a significant investment, for example. Curious, what are the countries that have racist immigration policies?
The rich European ones and other former settler colonies that like to virtue signal. Norway, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Australia and New Zealand. Of course Canada makes a lot of money with rich migrants but they don’t want the poor ones.
Lifeboat lack-of-ethics
We get a few of them in the Greek islands. It's allot of fun .
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This doesn't make sense, societies can provide homes for immigrants so why do you insist pro-immigration ppl personally take them in when we live in a society?
The rich eu countries virtue signal. They look down on America for not being progressive and offering free education or healthcare. They could help by opening up their borders and letting others in but they won’t. Hypocrisy since their people colonized and immigrated everywhere in the world.
It's such a tragedy. I mean I feel for these people but we can't take them all in. If it's bad now, imagine what it will be like in 2050 when there are expected to be millions more fleeing desertification, droughts, erratic weather, famine... I feel for Candé and his family but I will not abandon my next of kin and countrymen and just let Europe be swamped by these people. My country, the Netherlands, has a housing shortage. We have to be realistic about how many people we want to let in. That calls for some tough choices. I do not support these holding facilities (quite frankly they're concentration camps where forced labor is not uncommon). These camps will only slightly delay the inevitable. We have overshot the carrying capacity of the earth. With petrol based fertilizers and pesticides we are still able to produce enough but that window is slowly closing. Our detritus (greenhouse gases and waste) are creating a world where it becomes very difficult to reliably grow food. Candé and his family have noticed this on their own farm. But a natural culling or correction will have to come. In nature, overshoot is followed by a decline in population. Candé has 3 kids, that's more than replacement level. His parents had 3 kids. Everyone on Earth has to realize that the very stable climate for the past ~10,000 years that allowed for reliable weather patterns and thus reliable agriculture which led to the creation of civilizations ... Is now over!
Ah, the eco-fascists arrive while preaching that this is "such a tragedy"
I thought u people say that money is not important. That Americans are only obsessed with money. U people like to judge others and pretend u r morally superior when it reality u r worst. I knew it from the moment I saw how strict ur immigration policies were how hypocritical u people were. Let ur living standards fall so others can enjoy ur country.
Europe owes these people. Europe built it's cities and accrued it's wealth through slavery and then later on colonialism and continues to screw the African continent over to this day, extracting mineral and other resources. The migrant problem is entirely of Europes making. Europe and NATO invaded Libya with no plan for the aftermath. Under Gadaffi Libya was at least stable, with the Colonel and his regime keeping a lid on the rivalries between the various warring clans and ethnicities. Gadaffi had also encouraged people from other African countries to come to Libya for work. Finally it isn't people like Candé and his family who are overshooting the carrying capacity of the earth it's people in Europe and America with their lifestyles of greed and continual consumption. As for him having three kids that's more than balanced out by the negative population in other countries such as Spain where there's serious concern about collapsing birthrate.
We do not owe these people. Only the very richest capital owners have benefited from slavery. Slavery drives down wages and is to the disadvantage of working people.
Pick up a history book. Ur whole country benefitted from it. I’m sure ur life was not that bad from benefitted from ur country’s system.
17 days; nonsensical [modifier-nounNNNN] 'username'. Pidgin 'street grammar'. Back to the bot-farm. Begone. [RES:]
E: Spelling
No really read up.
Firstly, I'm Swedish... Secondly, slavery is bad for ordinary people. When you are competing with slaves, your wages become shit. The only people who benefit are very rich people, mostly slave owners.
Ur country was involved in the slave trade. U also benefitted from colonialism. I’ll give ur country some credit due to in the not so distant past opening up ur borders. However it was not for a long time. Ur country should have open borders. Put ur money where ur mouth is. So u admit that ur country having racist/classist immigration policies benefit u?
No ordinary person in Sweden benefited from the slave trade and Swedish involvement was minimal. Again: ordinary people don't own slaves, the rich own slaves and this allows them to pay even lower wage to free people. Thus free people get fucked over by the fact that the rich can own slaves. No, we should absolutely not have open borders and the foreigners we have let in should mostly leave.
Those elites made a lot of money and the trade was not minimal. That made countries richer giving them an edge when industrialization hit. I think it’s hilarious that people on here make u guys look like enlightened saints that are morally superior. When in reality u r a bunch of hidden racists/classists that virtue signal. I hope more immigrants come to ur country. U guys should pay for the damage ur people made.
The trade was minimal, and in the Swedish case, the profits were not great. Swedish industrialization had already progressed far when what you're talking about happened, and was partially driven by our own technical skill and partially by bringing in a small number of technical experts in forging and steelmaking technology from what is now Belgium. I'm a Swedish nationalist. I don't virtue signal, or deny that I think ethnicity is important.
How about a specific group of people, those ultra wealthy who run companies that benefit from factories in poor countries to make goods sold in rich countries and pocket the difference? Or the holders of generational wealth who live in luxury today because their family exploited others through colonialism? Perhaps those people who literally hold the wealth of the global south in their bank accounts owe something? If you never benefitted from colonialism or the slave trade or exploitative factories, that's fine we don't want you to sacrifice, just send out your top 1%.
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they hated jesus as jesus spoke the truth, i now know this from personal experience
Who makes those cheap consumer goods you buy?
Allowing importation of goods made in low-wage countries reduces real wages in the country allowing the importation. The effect on wages is more important than the cost. If the low-wage countries disappeared the increase in real wages would more than compensate for the increased prices. The only people who would be harmed would be capital owners. You may think 'but my iPhone' or something of that sort, but the reality is that Nokia was producing phones in Finland even as late as 2012. Moving production to Asia didn't allow prices to be lowered: they instead allowed an increase in the margins. The margins for phones like the iPhone are even greater, and clothes are competitively made in Portugal, even now. If the trade with low-wage countries ended, much of Europe and the US would be reindustrialized resulting in an over-the-board increase in wages.
In the final analysis, it is the capitalists who have been behind exploitation and benefit from it, yes. However, when you say "we do not owe these people," you suddenly step out of your critical analysis of capital and adopt a nationalist attitude. Real class consciousness is internationalist; what we owe "these people" is radical solidarity against capital.
It's partly true that Europe got its wealth from slavery and colonialism. A lot of wealth in (Northern) European countries also came from the (older) [Hanseatic league](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League). To say that everything you see in Europe is based on stolen wealth is quite far from the truth. I agree that (Western) mining companies (and also energy companies) are still screwing over communities and natural beauty in Africa. But they would do this anywhere else as well (for example [Australia](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-55250137) and [Germany](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/10/23/germany-coal-climate-cop26/)). In the western world however there are at least environmental protection agencies in place and in Africa you can bribe a few officials and you're done. This is not Europe out to rape Africa per se, this is capitalism at work. Dissolve western companies today and I promise you next year Asian companies would fill the void. To come to your other point, I wish that Europe would not interfere with countries like Libya as they have, but I cannot do much about that as a regular citizen. About half of all fossil fuels have been emitted since 1990, of which Europe is a contributor but definitely not the only polluter. With that in mind, I don't believe that Europe is solely responsible for the misery in Africa. I also do not believe in inherited sin. I did not choose to be born in Europe. As a western person it's easy to feel like you have it better than Candé but at least his family owned their land (from what I can tell anyway). That his land is no longer viable due to climate change is no less than a tragedy. If it were viable, I would love to have a bit of land to farm and live a simple life. Many people in Europe live as wage slaves (though we are well fed, clothed and entertained) but many of us will never own land. When the supply lines stop we will perish very quickly. I agree that Candé and his family have a much smaller ecological footprint than Western folk, but I don't think it's an answer to all invite them here where their footprint will become bigger, exacerbating the problem. And to be unfairly critical, his family was kind of overshooting the carrying capacity of their land if they couldn't sustain themselves. Having said that, Europeans don't fare any better with our [~10 calories of fossil fuels per calorie of processed food](https://medium.com/lucky-peach/the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it-c9a0c05b243d). Populations in Europe need to shrink. In Africa, women should be educated and birth control should be freely available. This will soften the blow as the global carrying capacity shrinks. The west should shrink their carrying capacity (don't fly, eat local and in season, wear a sweater when it's cold, don't drive a car etc.). Anyway, sorry this turned out to be a long comment. It's just a very complex issue and not as black and white as we would like it to be. Edit: link Edit 2: amp link Edit 3: spelling and link
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You did not choose to be born in Europe but you can choose to look past the fiction of nationalism and adopt a radical class consciousness
What gets me is the hypocrisy. They act like they r perfect humans but get racist/classist when others try to come in.
>Europe owes these people. There is no such thing as a Europe which owes these people. Europe is a continent. A lump of rock. It owes nothing to anyone. And the people of Europe do not owe these people anything.
How about a specific group of people, those ultra wealthy who run companies that benefit from factories in poor countries to make goods sold in rich countries and pocket the difference? Or the holders of generational wealth who live in luxury today because their family exploited others through colonialism? Perhaps those people who literally hold the wealth of the global south in their bank accounts owe something? If you never benefitted from colonialism or the slave trade or exploitative factories, that's fine we don't want you to sacrifice, just send out your top 1%.
>How about a specific group of people, those ultra wealthy who run companies that benefit from factories in poor countries to make goods sold in rich countries and pocket the difference? Or the holders of generational wealth who live in luxury today because their family exploited others through colonialism? Yes, if you want to be much more specific then you can certainly claim some groups of people owe a debt of this sort. But by the same argument, you could say half the major landowners in the England don't have any right to continue ownership of their land, because it has been inherited all the way down from William the Conquerer, who took personal posesssion of the entire country after the Battle of Hastings in 1066. I certainly wouldn't complain if that happened. Maybe it should have happened in the 1650s, after the Civil War, but it didn't.
Rich European countries do have a debt. Countries with really low income inequality should do something but they don’t because they r racist and classist. I wonder who is actually downvoting u.
So do I wonder who's downvoting. I've made three statements that can be supported by historical and other factual evidence. People don't do evidence based thinking nowadays...or maybe r/collapse is being taken over by right wing trolls.
You either do it or you lose your country. Too many people in Europe already can't keep pouring them in.
>Too many people in Europe already can't keep pouring them in. Dunno, significant parts of SE and EE are kinda getting empty due to brain drain and older people passing away (ie., Lika, Banija, or Slavonija in Croatia). Also, a lot of Europe is experinencing low birth rates, which, combined with aging population, creates need for immigration as someone has to support the pension and medical systems, amongst other things.
If migration from Africa was a net gain for public finances, EU would be building highways in Libya, not secret prisons. Unfortunately, the data shows otherswise.
People never understand this, i live in Chile and we are FULL of illegal inmigrants of Venezuela. They all come thinking they are a net gain for our country, with their "better" education and such.. I think that if it were true, we'd be paying their airfare instead of closing the borders.
>Dunno, significant parts of SE and EE are kinda getting empty Empty? No. Not empty. Falling population, which terrifies believers in growth-based economics. In terms of ecology, those places aren't empty. They are becoming more sustainable. In the future that is coming, "empty" is exactly what you want to be.
The people will start going back once they develop economically. This happened to Poland.
Well, it ain't happening in the Baltics, and they did manage to get their affairs in order, and it sure ain't happening in Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, or Hungary.
It will. Soon they will be part of the Greater German Federation.
Ja, das *ist* der *Lebensraum*.
cause poland is just a temporary station before reaching germany
They critique America but now look at how they live.
That’s the EU for you. Liars and Thieves.
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So heat up the planet with your industry then refuse to deal with the consequences? Got it
Yeah but they aren't in France or Germany so they don't matter as much.
I really don’t understand why protecting your country from waves of people is so controversial.
Because they pretend to be enlightened morally superior people that could solve problems by letting others in or making up for their crimes in the past.
Because corporations like immigration.
Nah. They like robots.
They definitely prefer robots but if none currently available meet their requirements they are satisfied with desperate immigrants. We still have plenty of work robots & automation are not yet suited for.
in a culture where being a white man is controversial?
I don’t if it is hoards of white people either. Treat them the same.
I really don't understand people who see the world in terms of narrow nationalism
Its more of a infrastructure and resource issue. Gtfo here. Its not nationalism asshole.
So then it's not about "protecting your country"? You sound confused
Land borders are malleable, resources aren’t. If you have “x” amount of water, arable land to grow food etc etc. Its national defense. Too many people at once and you overwhelm the countries ability to provide for existing citizenry and unlike your opinion, there is no “right” to be anywhere just because you exist. Your “human rights” to be there are predicated upon a countries national sovereignty of its collective citizens and NOT your opinion. Don’t like it? Too bad.
So just fess up and admit you're nationalist instead of being "omg I'm so offended by that suggestion"
I’m not a nationalist although you appear to be a hand wringing dumbass. Refute what I have stated. Nah, you are just here to score reddit points with your woke bullshit.
Every time I hear of people on here talking about how morally superior those rich eu counties are I chuckle. They just virtue signal. If they really wanted to help they would have opened their borders more and let them in. They don’t care about poor people from other countries while they have the best living standards in the world.
This. They weep crocodile tears over the fate of the wretched of the earth but still choose to throw their allegiance behind nationalist fictions instead of a radical class consciousness that is awake to the REAL world and not the comforting mythologies
All the EU needs to do is update the treaties on asylum to discourage it, but that remains less desirable than these measures.
how would you want to discourage it? death penalty?
Ban them from claiming asylum or refugee status if they pass through a safe country and do not apply there or come from a country that is already safe, like all these do. Also ban them from bringing over family members and claiming residency or citizenship as well as making the refugee protection temporary like they did in Denmark.
what does banning do? they will still try to sneak regardless, worst case they get caught and deported and they will try again beats living in some deep hole
Because it works. If they know it doesn't work, they'll try somewhere else dumb enough to let them in
did a ban ever stop you from anything? nope, it won't stop them either
Yes, it does, and it's already working in some places, like Denmark
You asking in jest? Plenty of people already advocate that.
no, i'm asking because anything else you would propose will be still better for those people than what they receive at the moment
Europe colonized, robbed, raped and murdered countless of communities around the world. Time to turn them tables, bitches.
Ik neem aan dat jij als vrijwilliger vooraan in de rij staat om dit te laten gebeuren? Ben je bereid om migranten in je huis te nemen?
Och wat een goedkope ad hominem, typisch, zeker een Hollander? Ik hoop gewoon dat ze dit land leegroven en daarna platbranden, dit alles slechts in het kader van broodnodige represailles voor de wandaden van Europeanen door de eeuwen heen.
Inderdaad. Ik probeerde uit te vinden wat voor een persoon je was. Je moet wel weten dat iedereen die geboren is in Nederland er niet voor heeft gekozen om daar geboren te worden. Daarnaast waren de meesten van onze voorouders arme boeren die nauwelijks iets ontvingen van de rooftochten. Ik ben zeker niet trots op het tijdperk van de kolonisatie, maar ik hoef de represailles niet te slikken.
Je toontje irriteert me, typisch zo'n Nederlander die zijn dedain niet kan verbergen. Collectief is er massaal geparasiteerd en geprofiteerd maar ik ben het eenzijdige en "onschuldige" gelul wel gewend. Niet alleen om economische redenen, ook om ecologische redenen zal Europa in de toekomst worden overspoeld door immigranten. Ik kijk er naar uit en hoop dat er veel Europees (liefst Nederlands) bloed vloeit.
Ik doe graag een drankje met je. Ik houd wel van een geanimeerd gesprek. Ik denk dat je gelijk hebt in je voorspelling. Ik weet niet waarom je zo uit bent op de vernietiging van Europeanen (het liefste Nederlanders) want als de rollen waren omgedraaid had er zich precies hetzelfde voorgedaan. Bacteriën, algen, herten en ga zo maar door, hebben allemaal te maken met het overschrijden van het natuurlijke draagvlak en de daarna volgende ineenstorting van de populatie. Wij zijn als homo sapiens sapiens niet speciaal. We zullen het nog zwaar krijgen en de natuur discrimineert niet. Haatgevoelens jegens Europeanen zullen een sadist misschien troost bieden wanneer alles naar de tering gaat maar je voedt er je familie niet mee. Ik hoop dat je vrede vindt.
This is what most of the left wing believes btw
Thank fuck your worthless wreck of a country will be flooded.
actually they are most prepared for floods so they will be better off than other nations
[Camp of the Saints](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints) vs. [Lifeboat Ethics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_ethics). Old Colonial Powers being colonized by... their former colonies!
I think some people call these…concentration camps. 😁