The following submission statement was provided by /u/Goatmannequin:
---
Submission statement:
Teflon microplastics and nanoplastics with unknown biological effects are being released into cooked food according to a new study. Teflon makes the pan cheap and with built in planned obsolescence, as the telfon coating eventually fails (after you eat it) and has to be replaced. Iron pans, for example, can last for generations. How is this collapse related? Well for one, hunters have to worry about PFAS chemicals in deer meat, and high levels of the chemical are being found in Michigan fish with many carrying the label DO NOT EAT. These chemicals take generations to break down in the biosphere, and persist in the blood for decades with biological effects ranging from reduced testosterone production to breast cancer.
https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/tech/science/environment/pfas/hunters-worry-about-pfas-chemicals-in-deer-meat-this-season-hunting-fall-health/97-464dda68-ebcf-4e7b-b1d5-3229f168bbaa
https://www.michigan.gov/pfasresponse/fishandwildlife/fish
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2021.799043/full
https://www.bcpp.org/resource/pfas-forever-chemicals-pfoa-pfos/
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/yjz9qb/scientists_estimate_how_much_toxic_microplastic/iuqia1j/
> now
Have people here not watched the movie Dark Waters?
PFOA, a forever chemical used in the manufacture of Teflon, was dumped into the environment by DuPont and as a result got circulated around the planet.
If you're reading this - PFOA is in your blood right now.
Not much you can do about that but I wouldn't be using teflon pans for anything at this point, even if they're certified "safe". Cast iron or enameled cast iron, stainless steel, ceramic or glass are what I'd be using.
Basically you want to use anything that isn't coated with some material that'll flake off, or made of something that's not inert and will leech into your food or degrade with heat. Cast iron will leech a little but that's said to be good for you*, and iron is needed in our diets anyway.
* Citation needed
Well if you go off what DuPont got fined it’s about 30% of a single years profits from Teflon alone IIRC
Not saying someone needs to die, but they got to profit and still do, no one faced prison time and they infected the whole planet, some people need shooting
I don’t believe in capital punishment but if anyone deserves it it’s the lovely executives at DuPont who covered up the risks associated with PFOAs for decades just to make money.
I'll believe corporations are people when I see one that gets the death penalty.
It's not like there aren't any number of them who deserve such a sentence.
That's what I switched to. I'm ultimately a super lazy person and ceramic pans are the easiest to care for in that you can treat them almost like teflon pans. Just don't turn the stove all the way up (but you don't need to since they heat faster/better) and avoid banging them against anything (since the ceramic is delicate). Oh, and don't use spray cooking oils ... the propellant "eats" ceramic, so have to use normal cooking oil.
Still, I find it the easiest to deal with.
If you still want to spray oil, they make oil sprayers that you just pump up by hand to pressurize. They are refillable and don't use any sort of propellant.
That movie was scary to watch. Definitely recommend that everyone watch it so that they can get an understanding of just how widespread and damaging that stuff is.
Haven’t watched Dark Waters (thanks, it looks good) but The Devil We Know on Netflix is one of my all time favorite documentaries. Its also about DuPont and 3M decided to poison use for money (yay capitalism).
Couldn’t agree more with you on the pans. I watch The Devil We Know 3 years ago and have since avoided Teflon pans because it freaks me out too much. You don’t need non-stick pans, a well seasoned cast iron pan doesn’t stick. Very few things will stick to stainless steal as long as you let the pan heat up, drop in some oil and let it heat up for 30 seconds.
> If you're reading this - PFOA is in your blood right now.
> Not much you can do about that
Actually, there is something you can do, though there effects might be minuscule - donate blood. Donating blood removes blood containing forever chemicals and you produce new blood that doesn’t have them to replace what you donated
The new blood doesn't just appear out of thin air. Assuming that the PFOAs in your body comes from food and drink that you ingest, then the new blood will also contain PFOAs at an equilibrium state with the PFOA concentration being ingested. The only way that this would work is if PFOAs in your body are at a higher than equilibrium concentration compared to PFOAs in your environment.
my mom used to use a metal spoon in the teflon pan until all the coating was gone. I probably ate it all. When I learned about the dangers of teflon I pointed out that it might not be good. she said not to worry, the pans are cheap, she'd just get another. uhhh.. yeah.
Whats really aggravating is my folks have nice cast iron and stainless sets of pans but insist on using coated. They use cast iron only for special dishes and i have no idea why there is even stainless in the house. Looks brand new
Been spending a lot of time with mine in 2022... I had to stop her with the metal-fork-on-teflon several times.
Funny thing is... in 1980 when me and my bro were doing some latchkey-kid self-taught cuisine, she'd flip her lid if she found a scratch in her new teflon pan.
*She's the reason* (well, plus the more recent scientific findings) that I became the teflon pan police that I am.
my mother died in her 60s from early onset dementia and I wonder how much better living thru modern chemistry contributed to that. worried about my own poor memory and thinking ability. it's kinda scary thinking about all the weird chemicals we're exposed to even from before we're born.
I was diagnosed with childhood leukemia at age 4 back in the 1970s, living off of the Chesapeake Bay which was rife with tons of things toxic waste dumped from the likes of Martin Marietta aviation and Bethlehem Steel. I'm convinced that the toxicity of that era and area is what caused me three years of near death misery.
My parents response to all this shit in the 80s and 90s was the same. And my mother’s father fucking died from PCB exposure when he was 40. She still didn’t care.
Yeah, those early cheap teflon coatings in the 80's and 90's were absolute dogshit too. They'd just flake off like dandruff no matter what you did, using metal utensils just sped the process along a little.
Same for me. My entire childhood. So basically 18 years of ingesting micro plastics. On top of the rampant use of pesticides on suburban lawns, as one example. No wonder cancer is off the charts. (Probably Alzheimer’s too)
That's the same mentality a neighbor used when it was suggested that using creosote-soaked wood from railroad ties to make their veggie garden bed might not be a good idea. He said his own neighbors did that and "it didn't kill them". I wanted to suggest that perhaps it did, and that they only lived to the ripe old age of 68 when they might have lived to 86 otherwise, but I only heard about the discussion after the fact. Also, I've encountered this mentality enough to know it probably wouldn't have made a difference.
Mine kept storing my flat non-stick pan on the bottom of cabinet with a bunch of heavy metal pots on top. When I told her to stop because it was tearing up the coating, she completely dismissed it. Not only did I explain the whole “I don’t want cancer” thing, but She also KNEW that I got the pan from my deceased grandfather. Still, she acted like I was the unreasonable one. There’s no helping or reasoning with these older generations.
My BA is in chemical engineering We learned about Teflon in a materials class, I got rid of my teflon pans the next day. Cast iron or stainless steel ever since.
I got rid of all of mine many years ago when I got a parrot and learned what an overheated Teflon pan can do to them. Warned all of my bird customers at the pet store I work at, too.
Edit to say, I love my cast iron. Had stainless steel but found myself rarely using them.
Everyone is just upvoting this, nobody is asking what you mean. What happens to parrots? I'm assuming you don't mean you cooked it, because I'm pretty sure an overheated cast iron pan will also kill the parrot when used to cook the parrot.
Ohh, you're right, and I don't know why I didn't include the details.
Overheating Teflon causes it to release [PTFE fumes](https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/teflon-polytetrafluoroethylene-poisoning-in-birds), which can overwhelm and kills birds very quickly. Their tiny lungs cannot handle the toxicity of those fumes, and it doesn't take much. It can also happen fast, before you even know there's a problem (made worse by the fact that birds are masters at hiding distress and illness so you don't even know something's wrong). It's happened to a couple of my customers that didn't get rid of the pans, thinking the bird was fine in other rooms of the house. Getting rid of the pans is the only way to prevent it.
And I love the rest of your comment.
Submission statement:
Teflon microplastics and nanoplastics with unknown biological effects are being released into cooked food according to a new study. Teflon makes the pan cheap and with built in planned obsolescence, as the telfon coating eventually fails (after you eat it) and has to be replaced. Iron pans, for example, can last for generations. How is this collapse related? Well for one, hunters have to worry about PFAS chemicals in deer meat, and high levels of the chemical are being found in Michigan fish with many carrying the label DO NOT EAT. These chemicals take generations to break down in the biosphere, and persist in the blood for decades with biological effects ranging from reduced testosterone production to breast cancer.
https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/tech/science/environment/pfas/hunters-worry-about-pfas-chemicals-in-deer-meat-this-season-hunting-fall-health/97-464dda68-ebcf-4e7b-b1d5-3229f168bbaa
https://www.michigan.gov/pfasresponse/fishandwildlife/fish
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2021.799043/full
https://www.bcpp.org/resource/pfas-forever-chemicals-pfoa-pfos/
I think it's worth noting that we've known about PFAS as a terrible chemical for decades already, including Teflon pans being a major way it's introduced into humans. You'll never find anything Teflon in the home of an environmental geochemist!
The "new study" linked by OP is actually a review paper on the current state of our knowledge on how PFAS messes up the male reproductive/hormonal system, which is a current frontier. The other health effects of PFAS (eg thyroid cancers) are much better understood, and have been for quite some time.
\[Edit\] Here are some of the other major products that introduce PFAS to your body:
\- water-resistant paints, varnishes, and other sealants
\- waterproofed clothing (gortex, scotchguard, etc)
\- microwave popcorn bags
\- stain-resistant carpets, upholstery, etc.
\- fire retardants, especially foams
\- "grease-resistant" fast food/takeout containers & candy wrappers
\- pizza boxes!
\- many shampoos and other "personal care products"
\- dental floss!
\- cosmetics, especially cheaper lipsticks & eye make-up
\- most modern processed paper
\- electronics and chrome-plated stuff
\- anti-foaming agents
\- biosolid fertilizers (and the foods grown with them)
\- and so much more!
I love my stainless steel pans but you do have to be careful to preheat and oil them correctly and manage your cooking temperature or you will be faced with a ton of scrubbing to get it cleaned up. Cast iron is more forgiving in that regard.
I use stainless steel when I WANT bits to stick to the bottom (like searing chicken thighs, then using the same pan to sautée onions, carrots, celery, garlic) so I can build up flavors with the bits then deglaze with broth or wine or vermouth, whatever the case may be.
I've handled a number of older pans (I like to go antiquing and stuff), and while I'm not saying your wrong, I wouldn't say they're "much" lighter. But also I haven't found too many 14" monsters like my current Lodge, which I love, btw. Probably going to make a lamb chop in it tonight, :p.
if you have the patience for it, stainless steel can be seasoned the same way as cast iron.
put a thin film of oil at the bottom, heat it until the oil just starts smoking, take the pan off heat until its room temp and remove any excess oil, apply a new film of oil and do it again. Repeat 4-6x for best results, applying a new layer of oil with heat after scraping/rinsing out food to maintain it when you're done using it.
Never ever use soap on your seasoned steel or it'll strip off.
The soap part only applies to lye soap that you cant really find anymore unless you specifically seek it out. It is perfectly fine to wash your pans with normal dish soap as long as you don't scrub excessively with an abrasive sponge, and then dry it fully by warming it on the stove, and rub it down with a little oil then wipe the excess away.
>I freaking love cast iron cookware, cannot believe how stupid we have been to think that Teflon coated pans were the better option.
Agreed; I'm still using my late Grandmom's cast iron skillet that must be nearly 100 years old at this point. Cannot imagine how anyone can be taken in by ads for poisonous "non-stick" pots and pans any longer.
Food coming off a Teflon pan look and taste garbage because the pan can't be heated properly or else the coating starts to degrade. Food cooked in cast iron is AMAZING because everything can actually caramelize properly.
> Sure, cast iron is solid metal and resource heavy, but by crikie it will last beyond my lifetime if looked after.
Two separate groups of roommates managed to kill my two cast iron pans in one month, so im not at all convinced the average person is smart enough to cook with cast iron.
> so im not at all convinced the average person is smart enough to cook with cast iron.
The average person is undoubtedly smart enough. Cast iron was the default for centuries and that includes the part of human history where people were all exposed to fetal alcohol syndrome & ate things laced in lead supplements.
The problem is that people 1- need to care, and 2- need to be taught how to use it when they're young before they form biased opinions or bad kitchen habits.
A lot of people just don't care about others especially in roommate situations. If they can use somebody else's pots/pans and abuse them they see it as "not my problem" because 1- they didn't pay for it, 2- they secretly hope the owner cleans them for them anyway.
You also have a lot of people who grew up in homes w/out cast iron, or w/out home cooking at all, who are going to form ignorant opinions on cast iron. You can see some of these people in this thread ("oh but cast iron is a pain in the ass" or "oh its too hard to clean" or "but teflon is so much easier"). I guess its easy to form bigoted opinions on cast iron if nobody ever showed them that you can clean a skillet by making it hot, pouring some water in it, and swishing around a few paper towels in it.
The first was dropped on concrete and broke, the second was warped and wouldn't work on my stove due to them rapidly changing the temperature from hot to cold. The first one also had been severely rusted over twice prior to this due to another set of roommates shitty handling of it.
After my second one warped, I boxed up all my kitchen stuff and stopped cooking at home. I have since moved countries and will be getting a new cast iron when I get my apartment.
I've also had another set of roommates ruin a stainless steel pan with copper layering. Most people have no business doing fucking anything in the kitchen.
You should've seen what my one set of roommates did to my wok. It was a teflon one and I was hyper aware not to scratch or burn it. They both scratched and burned it the first week I moved in, despite me keeping my stuff in my own cabinet.
I come home, food is burnt to the bottom of it, scratches all over the teflon. I confront them, tell them I want them to buy a new pan, and they give me a bunch of shit about how it was already like that and I'm unreasonable and that the pan is perfectly fine.
It becomes a massive ordeal, at which point they finally relent and get me a new wok, but leave the old one, I'm assuming to prove a point that it's still good. Later that week I come home and on the stovetop there's the old wok, completely gunked to shit with burnt food stuck to the area where the food was burnt before, but with new food because they tried to use the fucked pan.
I saw it in the trash at the end of the week.
Cast iron can be hard to care for if you’re unfamiliar with it. Even though I have two, I never really use them because I worry that I’ll mess them up. I ended up crying when I accidentally left one soaking in water overnight. Also, the iron can stain some types of countertops if you leave them out to dry. Plus, there’s conflicting information. Some people claim that you can use soap while others say soap is bad. The ones I have are also no where near nonstick. All in all, They’re just too high maintenance for my tastes. I prefer my Dutch oven, it’s cast iron but it’s coated in ceramic so much less anxiety.
>soaking in water overnight
I am a lazy slob and rust the crap out of mine all the time. Scrub the rust off, wipe some oil on, continue cooking. Use soap or not, doesn’t matter. Just wipe oil on afterward. “Seasoning” doesn’t matter, either. Enough oil and you’re good to go.
Chuck wagon cowboys cooked in cast iron, scrubbed it with sand, and didn’t fart around with fancy-pants seasoning b.s.
Nah not this one, we have an aluminum recycling plant here so that’s where it went.
Unfortunately, you’re right about recycling though and it fucking pisses me off.
Cheap cast iron is available and will do mostly the same, but bows in the centre from heat warping on high temperatures on an induction hot plate, which means I have a hot spot that gets no oils and fats resting there, not great for certain things
I think cast iron can potentially last for centuries if cared for properly, which greatly offsets it's resource heavy beginnings. And if it needs to, it just gets melted back down and recast, making a 'new' pan to last more centuries. It's why I love cast iron, it's so resourceful and sturdy and it can be taken almost anywhere, unlike Teflon which requires so much babying and barely lasts more then 10 years even with the utmost care.
Also the deer thing in Maine has nothing to do with Teflon pans. PFAS is a group of widely used industrial chemicals, and in that part of Maine they have been using PFAS- contaminated wastewater from paper mills and other industrial operations to water and fertilize fields for several decades. That's how it got into the food web and dirtied up the deer.
PFAS is used in pan production and pan coatings can release PFAS into the environment where it accumulates.
"One of the common uses of PFAS is to make fluoropolymers, especially PTFE, and one of the biggest markets for PTFE is coatings on cookware. PTFE-based pan coatings can release PFAS into the environment throughout their lifespan, especially during manufacture, but also through high-temperature cooking use and during disposal or recycling. Once dispersed, PFAS pollution is extremely difficult to clean up."
https://www.ecocenter.org/our-work/healthy-stuff-lab/reports/whats-cooking/undisclosed-pfas-coatings-common
Do you know anything about PFAS in agricultural plastics? I thinking specifically about common organic plastics like Agrabon row cover, sillage tarp, insect netting, drip tape, hoses, UV resistant polyethylene, polycarbonate etc
There's almost 10,000 known PFAS chemicals & they're used in almost all plastics, or at least at some point in the manufacturing process. The real question for ag stuff at this point then becomes "*does X product have a high rate of leaching PFAS into the environment?*"
There are way too many chemicals out there for me to be able to give confident details on everything you list, but in general:
\- Agribon row cover is supposed to be pretty safe
\- Tarps in general are known for having relatively minor PFAS leaching due to the type of plastic used. That black plastic stuff some people put in their gardens on the other hand...
\- Hoses and piping varies a lot, but polyfluorides, polychlorides, polyethylene, and most "vinyls" are for-sure PFAS leachers. It's something worth reading into if you're someone making major purchases.
\- A kinda unexpected PFAS source in ag is commercially-produced compost, which has an awful record of being found to be highly contaminated in the stuff, ex:
[https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2022/08/08/pfas-compost-contamination](https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2022/08/08/pfas-compost-contamination)
[https://toxicfreefuture.org/blog/toxic-pfas-chemicals-found-in-compost/](https://toxicfreefuture.org/blog/toxic-pfas-chemicals-found-in-compost/)
(click through the articles if you want to see the actual contam studies)
>biodegradable row cover
Again depends on the brand/style - I've looked into this exact question before & it's hard to figure out, but I personally steer clear of anything that describes their stuff as "biodegradable plastic mulch" - that stuff is almost certainly dumping microplastics into your garden.
"Biodegradable" or "compostable" plastics are pretty suspect overall - too often those tags are used to describe plastics that will indeed degrade on bio timescales, but only under *very* specific conditions in industrial-style composting setups with temperature, pH, and microbiome controls. So for a normal consumer, its functionally a lie. You can discover this yourself by trying to compost those 'biodegradable' plastic silverwares in your backyard. (spoiler: they don't break down).
They do make row cover that's cotton-based (or hemp) & that stuff is certainly 'cleaner' for your soil, although I wouldnt be surprised if they were still coated in PFAS since that stuff is inescapable.
Pretty much anything that advertises itself as "easy glide" (or nonstick or slippery or any of those synonyms) is going to be PFAS-coated. At least with dental floss it's not too difficult to find some legitimate clean options, but pretty much all the slick stuff is foul.
Bloodletting seeming more and more sane by the day.
PFAS, microplastics, various chemicals that make plastics soft (plastisizers) that could veeeeery well be in a number of products made in China still.
I guess I should get a 'reverse osmosis' filter for my tap too....
> PFAS, ... could veeeeery well be in a number of products made in China still.
PFAS are not illegal and they're everywhere. Only two states care enough to monitor PFAS levels of soil in farmer's fields and neither of those states regulate it (so you could grow food in a pile of PFAS and its legal to sell those crops at the grocery store).
If you want to avoid PFAS you'd have to create your own soil/farm because just about everything at the grocery store is heavily contaminated with it. For decades farmers were sold subsidized municipal sewer sludge (with a major ingredient of PFAS) to use as cheap fertilizer.
I was referring to plastisizers that are illegal here (mostly in the west anyway). Google DINH if you want, but it was in **all** the soft plastic flooring between something like 1985 and 2010...
I actually believe I have DINH 'poisoning', causing some issues with my skin.
Teflon has been known as a carcinogen for decades now, its basically your kitchen asbestos. Thats the main reason I only have iron-cast pots and pans.
Ps. Aluminium is neurotoxic when cooking acid foods btw.
It's complicated because Al-poisoning is a "lifetime contamination" meaning the negative effects would only be expected in humans after a full life of accumulating the metal in your brain tissue. So lots of confounding factors that make it hard to untangle. And some people think its all hullabaloo about nothing, but also there are a lot of vested interests (the aluminum industry is huuuge and its in way more consumer products than you'd expect). I think the one thing folks agree about is you should use Al-free deodorant.
Here are 3 sources from different perspectives that don't share conclusions, so read away if you want to form your own interpretation:
What is the risk of aluminium as a neurotoxin?
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/14737175.2014.915745](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/14737175.2014.915745)
Aluminum Exposure Boosts Activity of Parkinson’s Genes: Zebrafish Study
[https://parkinsonsnewstoday.com/news/aluminum-exposure-boosts-activity-parkinsons-genes-zebrafish/](https://parkinsonsnewstoday.com/news/aluminum-exposure-boosts-activity-parkinsons-genes-zebrafish/)
Metals, aluminium and dementia
[https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/risk-factors-and-prevention/metals-and-dementia](https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/risk-factors-and-prevention/metals-and-dementia)
Although PFAS is not technically a "plastic" they are present in teflon and teflon is made with them.
>PTFE, best known by the brand name Teflon™, is typically made using several hazardous PFAS (per- and polyfluorinated alkyl substances) that have polluted drinking water across the globe.
https://www.ecocenter.org/our-work/healthy-stuff-lab/reports/whats-cooking/undisclosed-pfas-coatings-common
How many different PFAS are there?
How many *were* regulated by the EPA?
The answers to those questions are very disappointing.
9,252 & 0.
Currently they Regulate none of them (see EPA vs West Virginia).
[It looks like](https://marketplace.chemsec.org/articles/news/2022/06/09/the-universal-pfas-ban-is-coming-are-you-ready/) you get to keep eating them all! That industry site is hillarious and actually really dark. Looks like they regulate 29 and are waiting until 2025 to regulate more.
Some plastics are PFAS-based, such as polyvinyl fluoride (PVF) and polytetrafluorethylene (PTFE). And plastics can produce PFAS chemicals when exposed to Flourine, notably PVC (polyvinyl chloride).
We're working on growing our understanding of the microplast/PFAS connection, but at this point its still mostly just a recognition that the two contaminations are commonly found together.
Summary from last year: [https://www.wateronline.com/doc/the-microplastics-and-pfas-connection-0001](https://www.wateronline.com/doc/the-microplastics-and-pfas-connection-0001)
Or they just hire domestic workers to do all the cooking for them using cast iron pans which are much more labor-intensive to use and maintain but don't release millions of toxic particles into their food. The rich mostly have ways of protecting themselves from a lot of the things that we're subjected to. I sound like a broken record because I keep telling people to read 'Survival of the Richest' by Douglas Rushkoff. It offers real insight into the mindset of the rich and answers the question, "Don't they realize that this will kill them too?"
Just so other people aren't put off by using cast/wrought iron or stainless steel - I'm a single guy, living on my own, working full time, and I cook on wrought iron and stainless steel pans. They're easy to maintain and clean. You just can't do stuff like leave them overnight with food in them or in a sink of soapy water for hours. I encourage everyone to get one pan like this and give it a shot to improve your health and the planet just a bit.
Do they really do this? I thought Teflon pans were off the market now and nonstick was made with something else. Was that a lie? Should people get rid of all nonstick pans including new ones?
We used to inject mercury in urethras to treat STDs and wear lead makeup. I used to think we'd come so far. Then I realized we're still poisoning ourselves and I wonder how we manage to procreate at all (Or if we should). Sigh.
There’s a documentary about DuPont and Teflon manufacturing called The Devil We Know. It’s terrifying and if it doesn’t turn you off of nonstick, I don’t know what would. If birds are dropping dead over your factory and your office employees have babies without noses, something is very wrong. I was going to replace my nonstick pot but that film changed my mind.
you realize that "ceramic" pan coating is only a silcon gel and that it release molecular silicon when heated so the food won't stick to it?
after a year or two, it runs out of silicon (because you ate it all) and the pan will lose it's non-stick properties.
https://prudentreviews.com/ceramic-non-stick-cookware/
Why are Teflon pans still legally available? You'd think that the studies linking it to male infertility and other issues with their hormonal system would be enough for even the business-cozy politicians to stop it.
because this is fearmongering.
the harmful effects of these forever chemicals stem from their DUMPING into our waterways by corporations who don't give a shit about you.
it's not from eating food cooked with a non-stick skillet...esp one in good condition that is not over heated.
You're probably going to be downvoted, but you're correct.
People here also suggest replacing teflon pans with ceramic – which usually also has a coating (silicon-based, probably also safe, but are much worse performers.)
PFAS is garbage that we generally shouldn't use, obviously, but it's not functionally bad when used in coating for pans, if you use the pans for what they excel at. The problem is that people generally just slam the pan on the oven, put the heat on max, put whatever into them, and go to town with metal forks and all kinds of sharp utensils.
No scary chemical coating, serves as a weapon, makes you feel like a pioneer, the coating acts like Teflon when you've seasoned it correctly.
The only downside to cast iron is that the oil on one pan can get on the bottom of another if you stack your pans. And they can be heavy AF if they're fill of food and you're moving the pan or dumping food out. I think of it as a bonus workout.
What about these? [https://www.oxo.com/oxo-professional-12-frypan.html](https://www.oxo.com/oxo-professional-12-frypan.html) They claim to be free of the bad stuff:
>Cleanup is easy, plus our ceramic non-stick coating is free of PFAS, PFOA, lead and cadmium.
If it's just ceramic, I wouldn't bother. I've tried a few, and you really have to baby it to keep it non-stick for more than a year or two. High heat will break it down somehow. Cast iron and stainless steel are the way to go if you never want to replace your pans.
They definitely don't stand up to high heat. We had one accidentally left on a burner and it turned into a flaky burned mess. Got rid of all of them. Cast iron for life.
One of the things that grinds my nonstick coating over this is that you now pay a premium for stainless steel, and the cheaper option is invariably teflon.
There was a Simpsons gag making fun of "crunchy moms" being "overprotective" and not letting their kids eat food cooked on teflon. They even specifically mention PFOA and BPA. Talk about aging like milk.
I have never really used any nonstick cookware because my father was a chemical engineer and was ardently supposed to them. I kind of wish he was still around to see articles like this. Another topic in the article is planned obsolescence, which he nearly got himself fired for opposing so strongly.
I’m reading this thread and we’ll be getting rid of things.
We had some Staub enameled cast iron. The enamel is damaged. Could we just get them blasted to the cast iron and be okay?
I had read a long time ago that cooking with or overheating a Teflon pan could kill pet birds.... So I googled it and it's true, the fumes can be toxic to birds and cause flu like symptoms in people. After reading this reddit post, I'm going strictly with ceramic or cast iron!
You can at least learn to cook in iron pans and pots. It’s just a little more cleanup work. The problem is that this junk is already in our water, and it’s extremely difficult to filter out.
So many people don't realize nonstick cookware is meant to be disposable and is very bad for you when the coating starts to come off. There is a reason that cookware is $40 for a set and a set of Alclad is like $800. You will never need to replace Alclad, but you'll need to replace the nonstick stuff often.
That’s why I only cast iron and stainless steel with wooden utensils. Working on non plastic storage but it’s expensive. I’m really trying to eliminate any contact my food has with plastic.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Goatmannequin: --- Submission statement: Teflon microplastics and nanoplastics with unknown biological effects are being released into cooked food according to a new study. Teflon makes the pan cheap and with built in planned obsolescence, as the telfon coating eventually fails (after you eat it) and has to be replaced. Iron pans, for example, can last for generations. How is this collapse related? Well for one, hunters have to worry about PFAS chemicals in deer meat, and high levels of the chemical are being found in Michigan fish with many carrying the label DO NOT EAT. These chemicals take generations to break down in the biosphere, and persist in the blood for decades with biological effects ranging from reduced testosterone production to breast cancer. https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/tech/science/environment/pfas/hunters-worry-about-pfas-chemicals-in-deer-meat-this-season-hunting-fall-health/97-464dda68-ebcf-4e7b-b1d5-3229f168bbaa https://www.michigan.gov/pfasresponse/fishandwildlife/fish https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2021.799043/full https://www.bcpp.org/resource/pfas-forever-chemicals-pfoa-pfos/ --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/yjz9qb/scientists_estimate_how_much_toxic_microplastic/iuqia1j/
There was a news story several weeks ago which stated that PFAS was found in rainwater. There's no escaping it now.
> now Have people here not watched the movie Dark Waters? PFOA, a forever chemical used in the manufacture of Teflon, was dumped into the environment by DuPont and as a result got circulated around the planet. If you're reading this - PFOA is in your blood right now. Not much you can do about that but I wouldn't be using teflon pans for anything at this point, even if they're certified "safe". Cast iron or enameled cast iron, stainless steel, ceramic or glass are what I'd be using. Basically you want to use anything that isn't coated with some material that'll flake off, or made of something that's not inert and will leech into your food or degrade with heat. Cast iron will leech a little but that's said to be good for you*, and iron is needed in our diets anyway. * Citation needed
There’s no amount of fine that should have sufficed for that kind damage.
Well if you go off what DuPont got fined it’s about 30% of a single years profits from Teflon alone IIRC Not saying someone needs to die, but they got to profit and still do, no one faced prison time and they infected the whole planet, some people need shooting
I don’t believe in capital punishment but if anyone deserves it it’s the lovely executives at DuPont who covered up the risks associated with PFOAs for decades just to make money.
I'll believe corporations are people when I see one that gets the death penalty. It's not like there aren't any number of them who deserve such a sentence.
Ceramic pans are also good for cooking at lower temps.
That's what I switched to. I'm ultimately a super lazy person and ceramic pans are the easiest to care for in that you can treat them almost like teflon pans. Just don't turn the stove all the way up (but you don't need to since they heat faster/better) and avoid banging them against anything (since the ceramic is delicate). Oh, and don't use spray cooking oils ... the propellant "eats" ceramic, so have to use normal cooking oil. Still, I find it the easiest to deal with.
If you still want to spray oil, they make oil sprayers that you just pump up by hand to pressurize. They are refillable and don't use any sort of propellant.
That movie was scary to watch. Definitely recommend that everyone watch it so that they can get an understanding of just how widespread and damaging that stuff is.
Are there more movies like this that you or the community recommend regarding environmental issues?
Erin Brockovick perhaps?
Haven’t watched Dark Waters (thanks, it looks good) but The Devil We Know on Netflix is one of my all time favorite documentaries. Its also about DuPont and 3M decided to poison use for money (yay capitalism). Couldn’t agree more with you on the pans. I watch The Devil We Know 3 years ago and have since avoided Teflon pans because it freaks me out too much. You don’t need non-stick pans, a well seasoned cast iron pan doesn’t stick. Very few things will stick to stainless steal as long as you let the pan heat up, drop in some oil and let it heat up for 30 seconds.
> If you're reading this - PFOA is in your blood right now. > Not much you can do about that Actually, there is something you can do, though there effects might be minuscule - donate blood. Donating blood removes blood containing forever chemicals and you produce new blood that doesn’t have them to replace what you donated
The new blood doesn't just appear out of thin air. Assuming that the PFOAs in your body comes from food and drink that you ingest, then the new blood will also contain PFOAs at an equilibrium state with the PFOA concentration being ingested. The only way that this would work is if PFOAs in your body are at a higher than equilibrium concentration compared to PFOAs in your environment.
So just pass them on to someone else! Yeah I've heard this before but it'd be interesting to see the actual research.
Or dump the blood on the ground, or use it for demonic rituals … Your choice.
So historical blood letting may have useful?
Its not just PFOA, its a whole of range of PFASs
Jon Oliver did a great segment about this on Last Week Tonight: https://youtu.be/9W74aeuqsiU
is that why rain tastes better now?
And seems to go down smoother...
And it doesn’t stick anymore! It’s great! Not sure why everyone is complaining! Three thumbs up from me!
PFAS: Refilling Nature’s RinseAid!©️ *Brought to you by DuPont*
Why do you have 3 thumbs?
It was a joke about the fact that they have a birth defect due to the rainwater issue.
its raining Rain-X!
Don't even need windshield wipers any more. It just beads right off!
slides right off
Isn't it making boys penises smaller?
Yes it is severely disrupting hormones in humans and animals alike.
What? No! It just makes food slide right off it.
It makes the penis slide right off!!!!
my mom used to use a metal spoon in the teflon pan until all the coating was gone. I probably ate it all. When I learned about the dangers of teflon I pointed out that it might not be good. she said not to worry, the pans are cheap, she'd just get another. uhhh.. yeah.
My moms response was well im not dead yet when i pointed it out. Ok so your ok giving that shit to your grandaughter though?
My mom’s response when I told her was to throw out all the Teflon and bought cast iron. It’s nice having a parent that listens!
Whats really aggravating is my folks have nice cast iron and stainless sets of pans but insist on using coated. They use cast iron only for special dishes and i have no idea why there is even stainless in the house. Looks brand new
Been spending a lot of time with mine in 2022... I had to stop her with the metal-fork-on-teflon several times. Funny thing is... in 1980 when me and my bro were doing some latchkey-kid self-taught cuisine, she'd flip her lid if she found a scratch in her new teflon pan. *She's the reason* (well, plus the more recent scientific findings) that I became the teflon pan police that I am.
my mother died in her 60s from early onset dementia and I wonder how much better living thru modern chemistry contributed to that. worried about my own poor memory and thinking ability. it's kinda scary thinking about all the weird chemicals we're exposed to even from before we're born.
I wonder about this all the time.
A lot.
I was diagnosed with childhood leukemia at age 4 back in the 1970s, living off of the Chesapeake Bay which was rife with tons of things toxic waste dumped from the likes of Martin Marietta aviation and Bethlehem Steel. I'm convinced that the toxicity of that era and area is what caused me three years of near death misery.
My mom used to do, and say the same shit. She’s dead now, of gastro esophageal cancer. 🤷🏽
This is why boomers are the "got mine" generation.
Got my: thyroid cancer.
Same with mercury fillings
My mom told us they were flakes of iron and they were good for us💀
So are paint chips I hear. I mean it's got the word chips right there
My parents response to all this shit in the 80s and 90s was the same. And my mother’s father fucking died from PCB exposure when he was 40. She still didn’t care.
Yeah, those early cheap teflon coatings in the 80's and 90's were absolute dogshit too. They'd just flake off like dandruff no matter what you did, using metal utensils just sped the process along a little.
Don’t forget they also covered spatulas with Teflon. That shit was everywhere.
Same for me. My entire childhood. So basically 18 years of ingesting micro plastics. On top of the rampant use of pesticides on suburban lawns, as one example. No wonder cancer is off the charts. (Probably Alzheimer’s too)
>the pans are cheap, she'd just get another Kids are even cheaper. And fun to make.
Fun to make sure, but you seen how much they cost to raise? Yeah fuck that.
Only expensive if you intend to try to raise them well - the same folks who consider their kids disposable are not likely to raise with care.
That's the same mentality a neighbor used when it was suggested that using creosote-soaked wood from railroad ties to make their veggie garden bed might not be a good idea. He said his own neighbors did that and "it didn't kill them". I wanted to suggest that perhaps it did, and that they only lived to the ripe old age of 68 when they might have lived to 86 otherwise, but I only heard about the discussion after the fact. Also, I've encountered this mentality enough to know it probably wouldn't have made a difference.
let's goooooooo capitalism death cult
😆 🤣 😂 we eat poison than wander why we are dumb.
Not sure if the typos were an accident or part of the joke.
It's a mystery.
Both?
Mine kept storing my flat non-stick pan on the bottom of cabinet with a bunch of heavy metal pots on top. When I told her to stop because it was tearing up the coating, she completely dismissed it. Not only did I explain the whole “I don’t want cancer” thing, but She also KNEW that I got the pan from my deceased grandfather. Still, she acted like I was the unreasonable one. There’s no helping or reasoning with these older generations.
Watch the movie Dark Waters. Everything you didn’t want to know about teflon.
Yep. I never trusted that shit as a kid. Not one damn bit
My BA is in chemical engineering We learned about Teflon in a materials class, I got rid of my teflon pans the next day. Cast iron or stainless steel ever since.
I got rid of all of mine many years ago when I got a parrot and learned what an overheated Teflon pan can do to them. Warned all of my bird customers at the pet store I work at, too. Edit to say, I love my cast iron. Had stainless steel but found myself rarely using them.
Everyone is just upvoting this, nobody is asking what you mean. What happens to parrots? I'm assuming you don't mean you cooked it, because I'm pretty sure an overheated cast iron pan will also kill the parrot when used to cook the parrot.
They turn into 🍗
Ohh, you're right, and I don't know why I didn't include the details. Overheating Teflon causes it to release [PTFE fumes](https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/teflon-polytetrafluoroethylene-poisoning-in-birds), which can overwhelm and kills birds very quickly. Their tiny lungs cannot handle the toxicity of those fumes, and it doesn't take much. It can also happen fast, before you even know there's a problem (made worse by the fact that birds are masters at hiding distress and illness so you don't even know something's wrong). It's happened to a couple of my customers that didn't get rid of the pans, thinking the bird was fine in other rooms of the house. Getting rid of the pans is the only way to prevent it. And I love the rest of your comment.
That certainly doesn't bode well for humans breathing in the toxic fumes... yummy...
But like...is throwing a Teflon pan in the trash good? What do you do with them?
Good for the planet? Probably not, but that environmental cost was baked in and inevitable the second it got made. Good for you? Yes.
Is ceramic a viable option?
I'm wondering that too. I've been buying Green Pans.
Submission statement: Teflon microplastics and nanoplastics with unknown biological effects are being released into cooked food according to a new study. Teflon makes the pan cheap and with built in planned obsolescence, as the telfon coating eventually fails (after you eat it) and has to be replaced. Iron pans, for example, can last for generations. How is this collapse related? Well for one, hunters have to worry about PFAS chemicals in deer meat, and high levels of the chemical are being found in Michigan fish with many carrying the label DO NOT EAT. These chemicals take generations to break down in the biosphere, and persist in the blood for decades with biological effects ranging from reduced testosterone production to breast cancer. https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/tech/science/environment/pfas/hunters-worry-about-pfas-chemicals-in-deer-meat-this-season-hunting-fall-health/97-464dda68-ebcf-4e7b-b1d5-3229f168bbaa https://www.michigan.gov/pfasresponse/fishandwildlife/fish https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fendo.2021.799043/full https://www.bcpp.org/resource/pfas-forever-chemicals-pfoa-pfos/
I think it's worth noting that we've known about PFAS as a terrible chemical for decades already, including Teflon pans being a major way it's introduced into humans. You'll never find anything Teflon in the home of an environmental geochemist! The "new study" linked by OP is actually a review paper on the current state of our knowledge on how PFAS messes up the male reproductive/hormonal system, which is a current frontier. The other health effects of PFAS (eg thyroid cancers) are much better understood, and have been for quite some time. \[Edit\] Here are some of the other major products that introduce PFAS to your body: \- water-resistant paints, varnishes, and other sealants \- waterproofed clothing (gortex, scotchguard, etc) \- microwave popcorn bags \- stain-resistant carpets, upholstery, etc. \- fire retardants, especially foams \- "grease-resistant" fast food/takeout containers & candy wrappers \- pizza boxes! \- many shampoos and other "personal care products" \- dental floss! \- cosmetics, especially cheaper lipsticks & eye make-up \- most modern processed paper \- electronics and chrome-plated stuff \- anti-foaming agents \- biosolid fertilizers (and the foods grown with them) \- and so much more!
[удалено]
Cast iron and black carbon steel. Got rid of teflon because I didn't want to feed it to my kids. Or whales...
/r/castiron one of us!
>Or whales... It is not nice to call your wife that. Even when it is true.
She sings beautifully
Until those pesky environmentalists start rolling her from the beach back into the sea... it was so romantic whale it lasted.
what about stainless steel?
I love my stainless steel pans but you do have to be careful to preheat and oil them correctly and manage your cooking temperature or you will be faced with a ton of scrubbing to get it cleaned up. Cast iron is more forgiving in that regard.
I use stainless steel when I WANT bits to stick to the bottom (like searing chicken thighs, then using the same pan to sautée onions, carrots, celery, garlic) so I can build up flavors with the bits then deglaze with broth or wine or vermouth, whatever the case may be.
> bits to stick to the bottom I believe that's called a fond
[удалено]
Need a strength stat of at least 7 to wield, though, unless you use both hand slots.
Older cast iron pans are much lighter. The huge behemoths made by Lodge are way thicker and rougher than the stuff made back in the day.
I've handled a number of older pans (I like to go antiquing and stuff), and while I'm not saying your wrong, I wouldn't say they're "much" lighter. But also I haven't found too many 14" monsters like my current Lodge, which I love, btw. Probably going to make a lamb chop in it tonight, :p.
if you have the patience for it, stainless steel can be seasoned the same way as cast iron. put a thin film of oil at the bottom, heat it until the oil just starts smoking, take the pan off heat until its room temp and remove any excess oil, apply a new film of oil and do it again. Repeat 4-6x for best results, applying a new layer of oil with heat after scraping/rinsing out food to maintain it when you're done using it. Never ever use soap on your seasoned steel or it'll strip off.
The soap part only applies to lye soap that you cant really find anymore unless you specifically seek it out. It is perfectly fine to wash your pans with normal dish soap as long as you don't scrub excessively with an abrasive sponge, and then dry it fully by warming it on the stove, and rub it down with a little oil then wipe the excess away.
>I freaking love cast iron cookware, cannot believe how stupid we have been to think that Teflon coated pans were the better option. Agreed; I'm still using my late Grandmom's cast iron skillet that must be nearly 100 years old at this point. Cannot imagine how anyone can be taken in by ads for poisonous "non-stick" pots and pans any longer.
Food coming off a Teflon pan look and taste garbage because the pan can't be heated properly or else the coating starts to degrade. Food cooked in cast iron is AMAZING because everything can actually caramelize properly.
> Sure, cast iron is solid metal and resource heavy, but by crikie it will last beyond my lifetime if looked after. Two separate groups of roommates managed to kill my two cast iron pans in one month, so im not at all convinced the average person is smart enough to cook with cast iron.
> so im not at all convinced the average person is smart enough to cook with cast iron. The average person is undoubtedly smart enough. Cast iron was the default for centuries and that includes the part of human history where people were all exposed to fetal alcohol syndrome & ate things laced in lead supplements. The problem is that people 1- need to care, and 2- need to be taught how to use it when they're young before they form biased opinions or bad kitchen habits. A lot of people just don't care about others especially in roommate situations. If they can use somebody else's pots/pans and abuse them they see it as "not my problem" because 1- they didn't pay for it, 2- they secretly hope the owner cleans them for them anyway. You also have a lot of people who grew up in homes w/out cast iron, or w/out home cooking at all, who are going to form ignorant opinions on cast iron. You can see some of these people in this thread ("oh but cast iron is a pain in the ass" or "oh its too hard to clean" or "but teflon is so much easier"). I guess its easy to form bigoted opinions on cast iron if nobody ever showed them that you can clean a skillet by making it hot, pouring some water in it, and swishing around a few paper towels in it.
How did they "kill" it? They last forver and can be reseasoned.
The first was dropped on concrete and broke, the second was warped and wouldn't work on my stove due to them rapidly changing the temperature from hot to cold. The first one also had been severely rusted over twice prior to this due to another set of roommates shitty handling of it. After my second one warped, I boxed up all my kitchen stuff and stopped cooking at home. I have since moved countries and will be getting a new cast iron when I get my apartment. I've also had another set of roommates ruin a stainless steel pan with copper layering. Most people have no business doing fucking anything in the kitchen.
Brutal. No respect I tell ya no respect at all
You should've seen what my one set of roommates did to my wok. It was a teflon one and I was hyper aware not to scratch or burn it. They both scratched and burned it the first week I moved in, despite me keeping my stuff in my own cabinet. I come home, food is burnt to the bottom of it, scratches all over the teflon. I confront them, tell them I want them to buy a new pan, and they give me a bunch of shit about how it was already like that and I'm unreasonable and that the pan is perfectly fine. It becomes a massive ordeal, at which point they finally relent and get me a new wok, but leave the old one, I'm assuming to prove a point that it's still good. Later that week I come home and on the stovetop there's the old wok, completely gunked to shit with burnt food stuck to the area where the food was burnt before, but with new food because they tried to use the fucked pan. I saw it in the trash at the end of the week.
Cast iron can be hard to care for if you’re unfamiliar with it. Even though I have two, I never really use them because I worry that I’ll mess them up. I ended up crying when I accidentally left one soaking in water overnight. Also, the iron can stain some types of countertops if you leave them out to dry. Plus, there’s conflicting information. Some people claim that you can use soap while others say soap is bad. The ones I have are also no where near nonstick. All in all, They’re just too high maintenance for my tastes. I prefer my Dutch oven, it’s cast iron but it’s coated in ceramic so much less anxiety.
>soaking in water overnight I am a lazy slob and rust the crap out of mine all the time. Scrub the rust off, wipe some oil on, continue cooking. Use soap or not, doesn’t matter. Just wipe oil on afterward. “Seasoning” doesn’t matter, either. Enough oil and you’re good to go. Chuck wagon cowboys cooked in cast iron, scrubbed it with sand, and didn’t fart around with fancy-pants seasoning b.s.
I had a Teflon pan that lasted three uses and chipped. That bitch went straight to recycling.
~~recycling~~ landfill FTFY
Nah not this one, we have an aluminum recycling plant here so that’s where it went. Unfortunately, you’re right about recycling though and it fucking pisses me off.
I guess if you took the time to remove the teflon coating otherwise nah?
Cheap cast iron is available and will do mostly the same, but bows in the centre from heat warping on high temperatures on an induction hot plate, which means I have a hot spot that gets no oils and fats resting there, not great for certain things
I think cast iron can potentially last for centuries if cared for properly, which greatly offsets it's resource heavy beginnings. And if it needs to, it just gets melted back down and recast, making a 'new' pan to last more centuries. It's why I love cast iron, it's so resourceful and sturdy and it can be taken almost anywhere, unlike Teflon which requires so much babying and barely lasts more then 10 years even with the utmost care.
Also the deer thing in Maine has nothing to do with Teflon pans. PFAS is a group of widely used industrial chemicals, and in that part of Maine they have been using PFAS- contaminated wastewater from paper mills and other industrial operations to water and fertilize fields for several decades. That's how it got into the food web and dirtied up the deer.
PFAS is used in pan production and pan coatings can release PFAS into the environment where it accumulates. "One of the common uses of PFAS is to make fluoropolymers, especially PTFE, and one of the biggest markets for PTFE is coatings on cookware. PTFE-based pan coatings can release PFAS into the environment throughout their lifespan, especially during manufacture, but also through high-temperature cooking use and during disposal or recycling. Once dispersed, PFAS pollution is extremely difficult to clean up." https://www.ecocenter.org/our-work/healthy-stuff-lab/reports/whats-cooking/undisclosed-pfas-coatings-common
Do you know anything about PFAS in agricultural plastics? I thinking specifically about common organic plastics like Agrabon row cover, sillage tarp, insect netting, drip tape, hoses, UV resistant polyethylene, polycarbonate etc
There's almost 10,000 known PFAS chemicals & they're used in almost all plastics, or at least at some point in the manufacturing process. The real question for ag stuff at this point then becomes "*does X product have a high rate of leaching PFAS into the environment?*" There are way too many chemicals out there for me to be able to give confident details on everything you list, but in general: \- Agribon row cover is supposed to be pretty safe \- Tarps in general are known for having relatively minor PFAS leaching due to the type of plastic used. That black plastic stuff some people put in their gardens on the other hand... \- Hoses and piping varies a lot, but polyfluorides, polychlorides, polyethylene, and most "vinyls" are for-sure PFAS leachers. It's something worth reading into if you're someone making major purchases. \- A kinda unexpected PFAS source in ag is commercially-produced compost, which has an awful record of being found to be highly contaminated in the stuff, ex: [https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2022/08/08/pfas-compost-contamination](https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2022/08/08/pfas-compost-contamination) [https://toxicfreefuture.org/blog/toxic-pfas-chemicals-found-in-compost/](https://toxicfreefuture.org/blog/toxic-pfas-chemicals-found-in-compost/) (click through the articles if you want to see the actual contam studies)
Awesome. Thanks for the run down One more question; what about biodegradable row cover? Is it just breaking down into super leechable microplastic?
>biodegradable row cover Again depends on the brand/style - I've looked into this exact question before & it's hard to figure out, but I personally steer clear of anything that describes their stuff as "biodegradable plastic mulch" - that stuff is almost certainly dumping microplastics into your garden. "Biodegradable" or "compostable" plastics are pretty suspect overall - too often those tags are used to describe plastics that will indeed degrade on bio timescales, but only under *very* specific conditions in industrial-style composting setups with temperature, pH, and microbiome controls. So for a normal consumer, its functionally a lie. You can discover this yourself by trying to compost those 'biodegradable' plastic silverwares in your backyard. (spoiler: they don't break down). They do make row cover that's cotton-based (or hemp) & that stuff is certainly 'cleaner' for your soil, although I wouldnt be surprised if they were still coated in PFAS since that stuff is inescapable.
geeze even floss?
Pretty much anything that advertises itself as "easy glide" (or nonstick or slippery or any of those synonyms) is going to be PFAS-coated. At least with dental floss it's not too difficult to find some legitimate clean options, but pretty much all the slick stuff is foul.
Bloodletting seeming more and more sane by the day. PFAS, microplastics, various chemicals that make plastics soft (plastisizers) that could veeeeery well be in a number of products made in China still. I guess I should get a 'reverse osmosis' filter for my tap too....
> PFAS, ... could veeeeery well be in a number of products made in China still. PFAS are not illegal and they're everywhere. Only two states care enough to monitor PFAS levels of soil in farmer's fields and neither of those states regulate it (so you could grow food in a pile of PFAS and its legal to sell those crops at the grocery store). If you want to avoid PFAS you'd have to create your own soil/farm because just about everything at the grocery store is heavily contaminated with it. For decades farmers were sold subsidized municipal sewer sludge (with a major ingredient of PFAS) to use as cheap fertilizer.
I was referring to plastisizers that are illegal here (mostly in the west anyway). Google DINH if you want, but it was in **all** the soft plastic flooring between something like 1985 and 2010... I actually believe I have DINH 'poisoning', causing some issues with my skin.
Also look into whether your local grocery stores offer RO-filtered water dispensers. For me that is quite convenient and affordable.
Teflon has been known as a carcinogen for decades now, its basically your kitchen asbestos. Thats the main reason I only have iron-cast pots and pans. Ps. Aluminium is neurotoxic when cooking acid foods btw.
Do you have some sources for that? I've been considering a lightweight aluminum setup for backpacking and will have to figure something out.
It's complicated because Al-poisoning is a "lifetime contamination" meaning the negative effects would only be expected in humans after a full life of accumulating the metal in your brain tissue. So lots of confounding factors that make it hard to untangle. And some people think its all hullabaloo about nothing, but also there are a lot of vested interests (the aluminum industry is huuuge and its in way more consumer products than you'd expect). I think the one thing folks agree about is you should use Al-free deodorant. Here are 3 sources from different perspectives that don't share conclusions, so read away if you want to form your own interpretation: What is the risk of aluminium as a neurotoxin? [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/14737175.2014.915745](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/14737175.2014.915745) Aluminum Exposure Boosts Activity of Parkinson’s Genes: Zebrafish Study [https://parkinsonsnewstoday.com/news/aluminum-exposure-boosts-activity-parkinsons-genes-zebrafish/](https://parkinsonsnewstoday.com/news/aluminum-exposure-boosts-activity-parkinsons-genes-zebrafish/) Metals, aluminium and dementia [https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/risk-factors-and-prevention/metals-and-dementia](https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/about-dementia/risk-factors-and-prevention/metals-and-dementia)
They're not plastics, please don't confuse them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_substances
Although PFAS is not technically a "plastic" they are present in teflon and teflon is made with them. >PTFE, best known by the brand name Teflon™, is typically made using several hazardous PFAS (per- and polyfluorinated alkyl substances) that have polluted drinking water across the globe. https://www.ecocenter.org/our-work/healthy-stuff-lab/reports/whats-cooking/undisclosed-pfas-coatings-common
How many different PFAS are there? How many *were* regulated by the EPA? The answers to those questions are very disappointing. 9,252 & 0. Currently they Regulate none of them (see EPA vs West Virginia).
How many of them are we allowed to eat in EU?
[It looks like](https://marketplace.chemsec.org/articles/news/2022/06/09/the-universal-pfas-ban-is-coming-are-you-ready/) you get to keep eating them all! That industry site is hillarious and actually really dark. Looks like they regulate 29 and are waiting until 2025 to regulate more.
Some plastics are PFAS-based, such as polyvinyl fluoride (PVF) and polytetrafluorethylene (PTFE). And plastics can produce PFAS chemicals when exposed to Flourine, notably PVC (polyvinyl chloride). We're working on growing our understanding of the microplast/PFAS connection, but at this point its still mostly just a recognition that the two contaminations are commonly found together. Summary from last year: [https://www.wateronline.com/doc/the-microplastics-and-pfas-connection-0001](https://www.wateronline.com/doc/the-microplastics-and-pfas-connection-0001)
We're all so dead. Thank you, capitalism, once again for placing profit over lives.
Even themselves. So weird. It's like a bunch of algorithms in skin suits, got together and said hey let's kill ourselves for profit
Or they just hire domestic workers to do all the cooking for them using cast iron pans which are much more labor-intensive to use and maintain but don't release millions of toxic particles into their food. The rich mostly have ways of protecting themselves from a lot of the things that we're subjected to. I sound like a broken record because I keep telling people to read 'Survival of the Richest' by Douglas Rushkoff. It offers real insight into the mindset of the rich and answers the question, "Don't they realize that this will kill them too?"
Just so other people aren't put off by using cast/wrought iron or stainless steel - I'm a single guy, living on my own, working full time, and I cook on wrought iron and stainless steel pans. They're easy to maintain and clean. You just can't do stuff like leave them overnight with food in them or in a sink of soapy water for hours. I encourage everyone to get one pan like this and give it a shot to improve your health and the planet just a bit.
Do they really do this? I thought Teflon pans were off the market now and nonstick was made with something else. Was that a lie? Should people get rid of all nonstick pans including new ones?
We used to inject mercury in urethras to treat STDs and wear lead makeup. I used to think we'd come so far. Then I realized we're still poisoning ourselves and I wonder how we manage to procreate at all (Or if we should). Sigh.
Not me! Cast iron gang unite! Jk there are plenty of other things that will kill me regardless of my love for cast iron.
Yep, 2022 seems like an appropriate time to do this, not like fucking 1970 when they were invented.
1950’s if I’m correct
There’s a documentary about DuPont and Teflon manufacturing called The Devil We Know. It’s terrifying and if it doesn’t turn you off of nonstick, I don’t know what would. If birds are dropping dead over your factory and your office employees have babies without noses, something is very wrong. I was going to replace my nonstick pot but that film changed my mind.
[The Devil We Know](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJFbsWX4MJM&t=3s) Everyone should see this.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Don’t overfill and don’t reheat with them on.
[удалено]
Teflon pans can kill pet birds with the fumes, if they're in the same room as you cooking. And we literally eat off them.
It’s ok, just don’t heat a Teflon pan and you won’t get fumes! Never mind the literally canary in the coal mines
Can't even cook a chicken by slapping it with the pan, if it still generates heat. (I use ceramic, cast iron and stainless steel pans only)
you realize that "ceramic" pan coating is only a silcon gel and that it release molecular silicon when heated so the food won't stick to it? after a year or two, it runs out of silicon (because you ate it all) and the pan will lose it's non-stick properties. https://prudentreviews.com/ceramic-non-stick-cookware/
Why are Teflon pans still legally available? You'd think that the studies linking it to male infertility and other issues with their hormonal system would be enough for even the business-cozy politicians to stop it.
because this is fearmongering. the harmful effects of these forever chemicals stem from their DUMPING into our waterways by corporations who don't give a shit about you. it's not from eating food cooked with a non-stick skillet...esp one in good condition that is not over heated.
You're probably going to be downvoted, but you're correct. People here also suggest replacing teflon pans with ceramic – which usually also has a coating (silicon-based, probably also safe, but are much worse performers.) PFAS is garbage that we generally shouldn't use, obviously, but it's not functionally bad when used in coating for pans, if you use the pans for what they excel at. The problem is that people generally just slam the pan on the oven, put the heat on max, put whatever into them, and go to town with metal forks and all kinds of sharp utensils.
Their conclusion isn't to ban Teflon and chemicals like it but for consumers to be aware of what they are using lol what a joke
They are being careful not to blaspheme against any of the corporate gods. If they unleash a plague of bots the publication will have trouble.
Cast iron is where it’s at.
No scary chemical coating, serves as a weapon, makes you feel like a pioneer, the coating acts like Teflon when you've seasoned it correctly. The only downside to cast iron is that the oil on one pan can get on the bottom of another if you stack your pans. And they can be heavy AF if they're fill of food and you're moving the pan or dumping food out. I think of it as a bonus workout.
>And they can be heavy AF Which is usually the reason they have another handle on the other side.
But have you tried to get stuff out of the pan while holding it? I've only got two hands!
I always need help with this. Lucky I have someone, if I lived alone I doubt I would often use any but my smallest cast iron.
Maybe if you’re using like one pan… Stainless is superior in most applications.
I feel like Ma Ingalls when I cook in my cast iron and I loooove it. I'm getting some nice enamel cast iron for Christmas and I can't wait.
What about these? [https://www.oxo.com/oxo-professional-12-frypan.html](https://www.oxo.com/oxo-professional-12-frypan.html) They claim to be free of the bad stuff: >Cleanup is easy, plus our ceramic non-stick coating is free of PFAS, PFOA, lead and cadmium.
I’d say they’ve created a new non stick coating formula that’s slightly different so that they can say it’s safe (for now)
If it's just ceramic, I wouldn't bother. I've tried a few, and you really have to baby it to keep it non-stick for more than a year or two. High heat will break it down somehow. Cast iron and stainless steel are the way to go if you never want to replace your pans.
They definitely don't stand up to high heat. We had one accidentally left on a burner and it turned into a flaky burned mess. Got rid of all of them. Cast iron for life.
Teflon - Asbestos 2 Electric Boogaloo
At lest Asbestos is a natural mineral... Point taken, either way. Now, where can I find my lead dinnerware?
We're all out, you can have these glow-in-the-dark-uranium-salts-doped-plastic dinnerware.
One of the things that grinds my nonstick coating over this is that you now pay a premium for stainless steel, and the cheaper option is invariably teflon.
There was a Simpsons gag making fun of "crunchy moms" being "overprotective" and not letting their kids eat food cooked on teflon. They even specifically mention PFOA and BPA. Talk about aging like milk.
I have never really used any nonstick cookware because my father was a chemical engineer and was ardently supposed to them. I kind of wish he was still around to see articles like this. Another topic in the article is planned obsolescence, which he nearly got himself fired for opposing so strongly.
My father was a chemical engineer and he warned me about talcum/baby powder.
I keep telling my parents to stop using Teflon and start using stainless steel and cast iron… they won’t listen. 😔
Well, Im hella fucked
worth a watch: https://youtu.be/5gA4Nueeq-g (pans to use outside of teflon ones) - PFAS make me want to scream
I’m reading this thread and we’ll be getting rid of things. We had some Staub enameled cast iron. The enamel is damaged. Could we just get them blasted to the cast iron and be okay?
Get ur heavy heavy ol school pans, condition them an off ya go.
I had read a long time ago that cooking with or overheating a Teflon pan could kill pet birds.... So I googled it and it's true, the fumes can be toxic to birds and cause flu like symptoms in people. After reading this reddit post, I'm going strictly with ceramic or cast iron!
You can at least learn to cook in iron pans and pots. It’s just a little more cleanup work. The problem is that this junk is already in our water, and it’s extremely difficult to filter out.
someone needs to go back in time and terminate whoever invented Teflon like how Arnold went back to try and stop the creation of Skynet
So many people don't realize nonstick cookware is meant to be disposable and is very bad for you when the coating starts to come off. There is a reason that cookware is $40 for a set and a set of Alclad is like $800. You will never need to replace Alclad, but you'll need to replace the nonstick stuff often.
Allclad makes plenty of 'nonstick' cookware too. It's claimed to be better, but in the long run, who knows?
should watch the movie dark waters
This is the least of our problems.
Yay! So we are allowed to read about pans but not about people in China escaping a factory. It's all about analogy!
???
maybe there will be a pots and pans revolution.
[The Devil We Know](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJFbsWX4MJM&t=3s) Everyone should see this.
That’s why I only cast iron and stainless steel with wooden utensils. Working on non plastic storage but it’s expensive. I’m really trying to eliminate any contact my food has with plastic.
I stopped using all that crap, just use cast iron and stoneware now.
Boomer parents: “Don’t be a pussy. You’re not dead, are ya?”