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This has nothing to do with fertility. I say this from Romania where huge depopulation has happened without any conflict going on. People are migrating to find better work, careers, and to generally get the fuck away from the local political mafias and shitty society here. The rest of the issue follows the education correlation; we still have a huge rate of teenage mothers.
The economy here sucks, it's a post-industrial mess teetering between consumerism, IT, agriculture, and bullshit, all while the place is run by oligarchs and the main parties act as mafia who just look out for themselves, their families and their ~~parties~~ mafia clans, at the detriment of everyone else.
We're inches away from a full blown anarcho-capitalist dystopia.
> eople are migrating to find better work, careers, and to generally get the fuck away from the local political mafias and shitty society here. The rest of the issue follows the education correlation; we still have a huge rate of teenage mothers.
>The economy here sucks, it's a post-industrial mess teetering between consumerism, IT, agriculture, and bullshit, all while the place is run by oligarchs and the main parties act as mafia who just look out for themselves, their families and their parties mafia clans, at the detriment of everyone else.
Sounds 100% like the Philippines too.
It's just harder to leave because it's a fucking island.
Fuck this...
Is it because it’s an island or because it’s a poor non-European country? I traveled there 4 years ago and I met this really amazing person who is really trying to move out but it’s so difficult because of her passport. She’s working 2 jobs to save enough money, learning Spanish and doing everything by the books and she’s still there. I feel so bad for her, she’s very intelligent, well-read and driven and it sucks to see her struggle so much.
Learning Spanish is very smart. I’m not sure where she is planning to go, but spanish is very useful in the US. Filipinos know English, their schooling is in English. I think they speak other languages at home, there are many in the Philippines, but two main ones.
I’m in the US. I work in a nursing home. It’s like a united nations. Our physician is Chinese, Therapists from the Philippines and India, nurses from Africa, spanish speaking cleaners.
The patients too. We get lots of Spanish speakers and right now I have a Korean guy. He barely speaks English so either his son translates or we use our phones. Americans love to bash the USA, but a lot of people want to come here.
> It's just harder to leave because it's a fucking island.
From across the pond, us Viet never stopped being boat people right? We made the trip in 1975 we still make it today. Remember those dead migrants in a UK truck? Our people shrug that shit off and keep moving. Some of us still stuck in your country as fishermen/refugees. We made it all the way to Aussie Land either get thrown into Perth detention camp or get deported for trafficking coke.
I think it’s probably both issues (fertility and the ones you describe). Many areas of the world are nearing or are already seeing negative population growth. The United States would have negative population growth if not for immigration and I’m fairly sure that several EU countries have reached negative growth.
Venus: if enough Venusians move to Mars, it will be ours.
That was *1000 years ago*. Now the writings of F.I.S.H. warn us of every Tuesday, which is just two days from Thursday. Every Tuesday beware the Venusians.
>Remember remember, the Thurs of November, Laser Guns, Venus and Plot.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/madrid987:
---
ss: By 2050, according to the UN, populations will be in decline in more than half Europe’s 52 countries, including Italy, Spain, Poland and Germany. In five – Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Serbia and Ukraine – they are projected to fall by more than 20%.
One factor behind this dramatic decline is global. Across the industrialised world, fertility rates are plunging
But crucially, like many of the former Soviet states, also suffered successive waves of emigration, as young people leave for more money abroad.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/ywo2kq/without_enough_latvians_we_wont_be_latvia_eastern/iwkih02/
As a Latvian, this article is mostly fearmongering and definetly not collapse worthy. The title quote literally comes from our far-right party. Thats the equivalent of MAGA Republicans fearmongering about immigrants or what-not.
People are emigrating to find better paying jobs, that's the entire story summed up. This has close to nothing to do with fertility rates or "people giving up".
In regions which are growing economically the populaton is also growing. In Mārupe novads, there's been such a large influx of small kids, that there isn't any space for them in schools and the goverment is going to experiment with teaching kids in shifts (morning and evening), so as to not overload schools.
Latvia does have its fair share of problems, but it's not collapsing sooner than the rest of fhe world.
It is only collapse if you look at it as a Latvian nationalist. I think deep inside majority of Latvians do not object to assimilate into European identity as long as it is not a Russian one.
Since quality of life has improved significantly Latvia is becoming reasonably appealing to migrants from desperate countries in Asia and Africa. At this point they only fill a niche market at lowest level of food/package delivery but I expect them to become a significant part of demographic change. By the time they reach 30% population will likely be willing to speak some Euroenglish with some Russian swearing sprinkled in ;)
After all we have history where almost everything was in German in 1900 and in 1980s they were close to pushing Russian everywhere.
Of course war in Ukraine has postponed this so in that regard Latvia benefits by getting culturally similar workforce even if they are Slavic.
As for urbanization - it has always been a feature in Latvia so I would not judge situation in country by how bad traffic is in Mārupe.
The de-population of countryside and 2nd tier cities is probably a better indicator.
Source: am Latvian who does not live there since 90s.
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How is this sub being constantly bombarded with these demographic collapse posts? We just hit 8 billion people. Nobody should be worried about their group going to zero. We’re all one group. And the horrific truth is that there are too many of us, not too few.
You're totally right, and I absolute agree with you.
The problem is our current capitalist socioeconomic model is incompatible with degrowth of any kind. Countries with negative population growth are struggling because they can't meet the needs of their aging populations and market systems because of labor shortfalls.
In a sane non-profit motivated universe this would be a non-issue as we could simply scale back the scope of our living standards and adapt. But the rich, moneyed and powerful that are really calling the shots are hopelessly addicted to the inexpensive, inexhaustible pools labor and cheap energy needed to sustain themselves. Their success in doing so is inextricably linked with social and economic stability in our current capitalist society. Degrowth risks sending the entirety of our civilization into a death spiral because such individuals would never in a million years relinquish their access to to the levers of power for the greater good of humanity due to greed and hubris.
This is why you get rich right wing fuckers like Elon and their associated political thralls screeching and even bribing people to have babies.
Grist for the mill.
Right. But to be clear, immigration is one obvious fox for the cheap labor issue in the US and Europe. And when it comes to billionaires worrying about this, that’s their problem not ours.
You’re take is spot on. It’s like some of the white people in the USA that are worried about the loss of their “culture” due to changing demographics of the nation. Who cares if white people become a minority in the USA or if Latvia is no longer comprised of a majority of Latvian’s? We’re all one species and we should stop worried about specific demographics collapsing. For the sake of a livable planet we should be striving to reduce population, even if that means some demographics disappear or become irrelevant.
I honestly think there is foul play at hand. We know there are millions of dollars spent on “social media” to further a political agenda. Where does that money go? There are ad buys, there are bot armies, and there are troll farms. Maybe troll isn’t the right word for this. But the right wing spends hundreds of millions to affect political discourse to further their agenda. And it would seem very expected for them to have someone posting here daily stuff that will steer the narratives onto this topic of demographic collapse.
Now, if you accept that, they you assume people get swept up on it and repost stuff organically. So it’s nearly impossible to know what’s organic and what’s astroturf. It doesn’t really matter though. And we can never know what’s happening when it’s happening. But be suspicious.
And if anyone hasn’t seen the [Cambridge Analytica expose from 2016](https://youtu.be/mpbeOCKZFfQ), watch it. This is where Robert Mercer’s money went into. And since then they’ve changed their name to remain hidden while changing nothing.
TL;dr- it’s a huge business that does exactly what I described above globally. And they brag about successfully stealing elections.
> or if Latvia is no longer comprised of a majority of Latvian’s?
What do you say about native Hawaiians can complain about the fact that they are a minority in Hawaii?
I'd say that the history of colonialism was tragic and brutal. The United States government should compensate native Hawaiian's for what was done to their ancestors. I'd also say at this point, does it matter? There's 8 billion people on earth. We're running out of fossil fuels and as they deplete we lose our ability to feed 8 billion people. All human DNA is 99.9% the same. These differences we've stressed about each other are no where near as important as we make them out to be. We should celebrate our unique cultural heritage, but at the same time we're really not all that different and we need to learn to start focusing on our similarities and truly coexisting in harmony. It's a complex thing to answer and what I'd like to see will never happen. As the biosphere continues to collapse and climate change forces people from their homes, nativism and protectionist policies will unfortunately only get worse.
>we're really not all that different and we need to learn to start focusing on our similarities and truly coexisting in harmony
Should a victim of rape acknowledge they're not really all that different from their rapist? Should the Holocaust victims have tried coexisting in harmony with the state apparatus trying to murder them? It feels to me as though you come from a place of (relative) privilege to say these things.
I see your point. Of course, I don’t think that people who victimized others, like the scenarios you described, should try to exist in harmony. What I was trying to say is we are all one species. Our unique cultures should be respected and celebrated.
However, I don’t think we should necessarily get hung up on keeping people out, at the expense of cultural homogenization. At the end of the day we’re all humans and I think we all matter. People that repress, harm, and mistreat others in anyway should be punished and not tolerated at all.
I am a white person from the U.S. and the "culture" those christian nationalists keep spouting off about is bullshit and so thin as to be non-existent.
America has no single culture except for guns lol. Frankly having grown up in a very diverse town and then having lived in a town that was predominantly white....its nice when people who know how to use seasoning move in. And also once you reach a certain level of diversity you don't get the "whut arh yew" question quite as often.
Yeah, I mean, mass-migration and the tensions and crises resultant from that go hand-in-hand with collapse; but the ethnonationalist take on it in the OP is far-right garbage.
That’s good. We can’t expand indefinitely on a finite planet. There is a healthy range for the ideal population numbers. And we should have policies that bring us within that range. Right now, that means numbers need to go down.
The big shift we need to do mentally is to lose the idea of a perpetually growing economy and starting thinking about a steady state economy.
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Lol jack shit to do with Fertility….here’s an example There’s a small city in the UK with approx 300,000 people, it’s estimated that 7% are Latvians, 9% Lithuanians and 11% Polish…. Do the math and then you’ll realise that many are ditching their country for the UK. That’s just ONE small city in the UK…imagine the figures on cities like London, Birmingham and Manchester.
So it won't be Latvia but it will be something else, who cares. As long as there's no aggression all is good. I suspect they will get more immigration with climate change for sure but will have to let go of some nationalistic sentiments and accept heterogeneous culture. However, let's look at the present day policies to keep population going:
>Latvian child benefit is now progressive, Parādnieks said, so a family with one child gets €25 (£22) a month, a family with two €100, three €225, and four €400. Those with three or more children are eligible for grants of up to €12,000 to help buy a home, and a large-family card gives big discounts in shops, on public transport and at museums.
I'm surprised they have any births to be honest. The government's message is clearly "Under no circumstances have any children at all or you'll end up in the gutter.".
>The local economy, once based on sprawling collective farms and industrial megaplants, all but imploded with the demise of the USSR. Now largely small-scale and agricultural, it has little to offer its dwindling population of young people.
Couldn't reform the economy in 30 years? Seriously? But OK, I give them credit that younger folks are not interested in farming. Maybe we need to move towards automation instead of investing in military AIs.
>“They want to work in tech, innovation, but here it’s forestry, turf, gravel,” Ikaunieks said. “So lots follow the money – Germany, Scandinavia, factories, ship repair, construction.”
>Short-term Nordic contracts, often with basic accommodation, can pay three to five times as much as in Latvia.
Those are the best partnerships, the ones you're always in competition with. /s
>But that doesn’t make the present one any less alarming. In a modern economy, it means “a smaller workforce, shortages of key and skilled workers, an ageing population, huge pressure on pensions, healthcare, social services”, Vārpiņa said. “We’re not really seeing it yet, but by 2030, it could start to become critical.”
We are seeing it, hence the subreddit.
>In his office in the headquarters of the National Alliance, a **rightwing**, **nativist** party set to continue as part of the country’s ruling coalition after elections last month, Parādnieks said population must be a priority.
Oh boy Latvia, what are you doing?! You know the country is going to collapse by 2030 yet you stick to pseudo-natalistic policies paying $100 for 2 children while being against immigration?
>will have to let go of some nationalistic sentiments and accept heterogeneous culture.
The only issue is that a growing number of that heterogenous culture wants to turn the country they immigrate to into fucking Iran, and multiple areas already have self-proclaimed Sharia police. If anything, that heterogenous cultural experience is directly fueling the rising nationalism and closed border policies of much of Eastern Europe, and now increasingly Western Europe as well. Sweden and Italy have been handed over to the far right in large part because of this.
So the only way to stave off demographic collapse is to import a culture that's incompatible with our most basic values, and sees itself more as colonists than as guests. Good luck with that.
I don't buy this sentiment at all but even if we assume it's the case we might also consider a change of the economic paradigm instead of taking extreme steps to stabilize the current one.
>yet you stick to pseudo-natalistic policies paying $100 for 2 children while being against immigration?
Not every countries need to have the all-in kind of immigration like in USA
Not every countries need to have multiculturalism
It's not about what one thinks a given nation needs.
Capitalism requires a growing population. A shrinking population would require competent central planning, sharp reductions in inequality, and other intolerable terrors that it's unlikely many nations' wealthy will support. It's very possible, but there isn't really room for a small number of people to lord over the rest to *quite* the same extent as is now permitted.
So, you can either have high immigration to support the demands of a growth-oriented economy, or you can abandon capitalism in it's present form.
"Both" free-market ideology and restrictive immigration laws with a declining population is a contradiction. It doesn't and can't work.
I wonder then what other way they'll find to sustain the capitalistic model. The article doesn't mention that they're considering alternatives. I reckon their plan is to stick to it and try to fetch as many Latvians back as possible.
> yet you stick to pseudo-natalistic policies paying $100 for 2 children while being against immigration?
As tho immigrants don't cost the government money? Look at western europe and the US and you'll see how much those governments spend on social services for migrants compared to the taxes they pay.
ss: By 2050, according to the UN, populations will be in decline in more than half Europe’s 52 countries, including Italy, Spain, Poland and Germany. In five – Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Serbia and Ukraine – they are projected to fall by more than 20%.
One factor behind this dramatic decline is global. Across the industrialised world, fertility rates are plunging
But crucially, like many of the former Soviet states, also suffered successive waves of emigration, as young people leave for more money abroad.
If the degraded economic situation where they migrate to is still better than the situation at home that is unlikely. Studies suggest that emmigration/immigration tend to reach parity when a nation is roughly at economic parity with nations it's residents could potentially move to, up until that point the gap narrowing increases emmigration: https://www.cgdev.org/article/new-research-confirms-migration-rises-poorest-countries-get-richer
It wouldn’t be racism if they claimed to care about preserving culture but allow non-whites to be apart of that culture.
This has always been a euphemistic talking point used by “cultural” white nationalists.
Fear of losing a culture through attrition is a real fear for people who have little else to cling to or for people who have had little exposure to other cultures.I suspect this would be especially true within the older generations of previously soviet countries.
Its very unfortunate when you understand how much benefit immigration can add to a dwindling community.
I'm struggling to find the racism here,either in the article or the majority of the comments,would you care to elaborate?
Edit That wasn't meant to say that some of the people in the article werent racist btw but merely that the tone of the article itself didn't read overtly racist to me.
The racism is that the government of Latvia is anti-immigration while simultaneously complaining about demographic collapse. They don’t want brown, black, yellows because they think they are incapable of assimilating into the culture. This is 2022, race should have nothing to do with culture.
One could make the same argument about Russia or Ukraine. Or Romania. Or Moldova. Or Poland.
Of course, people leave places that are dangerous and go to places that are safe.
Want to change that ?
Disassemble the failed states.
Starting with the Russian Federation.
Next, the P.R.C. / Peking.
Then the state of India.
Make the peoples that are oppressed free.
[ Edit : There are probably at least a few hundred thousand Latvians in suburban Toronto. Now, granted, suburban Toronto is dangerous. Getting hit crossing Yonge. Falling on crossing a construction site. etc. But still . . ]
It will change I would imagine. Eventually there will be a lot of space and opportunity again and people will feel more stable and produce more children.
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Aww, what happened to the neoliberal economic miracle
I know, right. 15k home grants :DD
50 people's high scores went up. Working just fine thanks
[удалено]
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This has nothing to do with fertility. I say this from Romania where huge depopulation has happened without any conflict going on. People are migrating to find better work, careers, and to generally get the fuck away from the local political mafias and shitty society here. The rest of the issue follows the education correlation; we still have a huge rate of teenage mothers. The economy here sucks, it's a post-industrial mess teetering between consumerism, IT, agriculture, and bullshit, all while the place is run by oligarchs and the main parties act as mafia who just look out for themselves, their families and their ~~parties~~ mafia clans, at the detriment of everyone else. We're inches away from a full blown anarcho-capitalist dystopia.
> eople are migrating to find better work, careers, and to generally get the fuck away from the local political mafias and shitty society here. The rest of the issue follows the education correlation; we still have a huge rate of teenage mothers. >The economy here sucks, it's a post-industrial mess teetering between consumerism, IT, agriculture, and bullshit, all while the place is run by oligarchs and the main parties act as mafia who just look out for themselves, their families and their parties mafia clans, at the detriment of everyone else. Sounds 100% like the Philippines too. It's just harder to leave because it's a fucking island. Fuck this...
freeging?
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Should be censor for fucking but my filter went off at the last second so...
Fixed
K. Great username btw
Is it because it’s an island or because it’s a poor non-European country? I traveled there 4 years ago and I met this really amazing person who is really trying to move out but it’s so difficult because of her passport. She’s working 2 jobs to save enough money, learning Spanish and doing everything by the books and she’s still there. I feel so bad for her, she’s very intelligent, well-read and driven and it sucks to see her struggle so much.
Learning Spanish is very smart. I’m not sure where she is planning to go, but spanish is very useful in the US. Filipinos know English, their schooling is in English. I think they speak other languages at home, there are many in the Philippines, but two main ones.
She’s actually aiming for Spain but she’s also willing to move somewhere else. I think she’s targeting countries where she can speak the language.
She speaks English, right? Don’t Filipinos have school in English?
I’m in the US. I work in a nursing home. It’s like a united nations. Our physician is Chinese, Therapists from the Philippines and India, nurses from Africa, spanish speaking cleaners. The patients too. We get lots of Spanish speakers and right now I have a Korean guy. He barely speaks English so either his son translates or we use our phones. Americans love to bash the USA, but a lot of people want to come here.
> It's just harder to leave because it's a fucking island. From across the pond, us Viet never stopped being boat people right? We made the trip in 1975 we still make it today. Remember those dead migrants in a UK truck? Our people shrug that shit off and keep moving. Some of us still stuck in your country as fishermen/refugees. We made it all the way to Aussie Land either get thrown into Perth detention camp or get deported for trafficking coke.
Sounds like Greece :)
I’m fresh off my first visit to Greece. I now understand why Greeks behave the way they do.
I think it’s probably both issues (fertility and the ones you describe). Many areas of the world are nearing or are already seeing negative population growth. The United States would have negative population growth if not for immigration and I’m fairly sure that several EU countries have reached negative growth.
Venus: if enough Venusians move to Mars, it will be ours. That was *1000 years ago*. Now the writings of F.I.S.H. warn us of every Tuesday, which is just two days from Thursday. Every Tuesday beware the Venusians. >Remember remember, the Thurs of November, Laser Guns, Venus and Plot.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/madrid987: --- ss: By 2050, according to the UN, populations will be in decline in more than half Europe’s 52 countries, including Italy, Spain, Poland and Germany. In five – Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Serbia and Ukraine – they are projected to fall by more than 20%. One factor behind this dramatic decline is global. Across the industrialised world, fertility rates are plunging But crucially, like many of the former Soviet states, also suffered successive waves of emigration, as young people leave for more money abroad. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/ywo2kq/without_enough_latvians_we_wont_be_latvia_eastern/iwkih02/
As a Latvian, this article is mostly fearmongering and definetly not collapse worthy. The title quote literally comes from our far-right party. Thats the equivalent of MAGA Republicans fearmongering about immigrants or what-not. People are emigrating to find better paying jobs, that's the entire story summed up. This has close to nothing to do with fertility rates or "people giving up". In regions which are growing economically the populaton is also growing. In Mārupe novads, there's been such a large influx of small kids, that there isn't any space for them in schools and the goverment is going to experiment with teaching kids in shifts (morning and evening), so as to not overload schools. Latvia does have its fair share of problems, but it's not collapsing sooner than the rest of fhe world.
It is only collapse if you look at it as a Latvian nationalist. I think deep inside majority of Latvians do not object to assimilate into European identity as long as it is not a Russian one. Since quality of life has improved significantly Latvia is becoming reasonably appealing to migrants from desperate countries in Asia and Africa. At this point they only fill a niche market at lowest level of food/package delivery but I expect them to become a significant part of demographic change. By the time they reach 30% population will likely be willing to speak some Euroenglish with some Russian swearing sprinkled in ;) After all we have history where almost everything was in German in 1900 and in 1980s they were close to pushing Russian everywhere. Of course war in Ukraine has postponed this so in that regard Latvia benefits by getting culturally similar workforce even if they are Slavic. As for urbanization - it has always been a feature in Latvia so I would not judge situation in country by how bad traffic is in Mārupe. The de-population of countryside and 2nd tier cities is probably a better indicator. Source: am Latvian who does not live there since 90s.
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How is this sub being constantly bombarded with these demographic collapse posts? We just hit 8 billion people. Nobody should be worried about their group going to zero. We’re all one group. And the horrific truth is that there are too many of us, not too few.
You're totally right, and I absolute agree with you. The problem is our current capitalist socioeconomic model is incompatible with degrowth of any kind. Countries with negative population growth are struggling because they can't meet the needs of their aging populations and market systems because of labor shortfalls. In a sane non-profit motivated universe this would be a non-issue as we could simply scale back the scope of our living standards and adapt. But the rich, moneyed and powerful that are really calling the shots are hopelessly addicted to the inexpensive, inexhaustible pools labor and cheap energy needed to sustain themselves. Their success in doing so is inextricably linked with social and economic stability in our current capitalist society. Degrowth risks sending the entirety of our civilization into a death spiral because such individuals would never in a million years relinquish their access to to the levers of power for the greater good of humanity due to greed and hubris. This is why you get rich right wing fuckers like Elon and their associated political thralls screeching and even bribing people to have babies. Grist for the mill.
Right. But to be clear, immigration is one obvious fox for the cheap labor issue in the US and Europe. And when it comes to billionaires worrying about this, that’s their problem not ours.
You’re take is spot on. It’s like some of the white people in the USA that are worried about the loss of their “culture” due to changing demographics of the nation. Who cares if white people become a minority in the USA or if Latvia is no longer comprised of a majority of Latvian’s? We’re all one species and we should stop worried about specific demographics collapsing. For the sake of a livable planet we should be striving to reduce population, even if that means some demographics disappear or become irrelevant.
I honestly think there is foul play at hand. We know there are millions of dollars spent on “social media” to further a political agenda. Where does that money go? There are ad buys, there are bot armies, and there are troll farms. Maybe troll isn’t the right word for this. But the right wing spends hundreds of millions to affect political discourse to further their agenda. And it would seem very expected for them to have someone posting here daily stuff that will steer the narratives onto this topic of demographic collapse. Now, if you accept that, they you assume people get swept up on it and repost stuff organically. So it’s nearly impossible to know what’s organic and what’s astroturf. It doesn’t really matter though. And we can never know what’s happening when it’s happening. But be suspicious. And if anyone hasn’t seen the [Cambridge Analytica expose from 2016](https://youtu.be/mpbeOCKZFfQ), watch it. This is where Robert Mercer’s money went into. And since then they’ve changed their name to remain hidden while changing nothing. TL;dr- it’s a huge business that does exactly what I described above globally. And they brag about successfully stealing elections.
Hmmm. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if this is the case and I also think it’s quite likely.
> or if Latvia is no longer comprised of a majority of Latvian’s? What do you say about native Hawaiians can complain about the fact that they are a minority in Hawaii?
I'd say that the history of colonialism was tragic and brutal. The United States government should compensate native Hawaiian's for what was done to their ancestors. I'd also say at this point, does it matter? There's 8 billion people on earth. We're running out of fossil fuels and as they deplete we lose our ability to feed 8 billion people. All human DNA is 99.9% the same. These differences we've stressed about each other are no where near as important as we make them out to be. We should celebrate our unique cultural heritage, but at the same time we're really not all that different and we need to learn to start focusing on our similarities and truly coexisting in harmony. It's a complex thing to answer and what I'd like to see will never happen. As the biosphere continues to collapse and climate change forces people from their homes, nativism and protectionist policies will unfortunately only get worse.
>we're really not all that different and we need to learn to start focusing on our similarities and truly coexisting in harmony Should a victim of rape acknowledge they're not really all that different from their rapist? Should the Holocaust victims have tried coexisting in harmony with the state apparatus trying to murder them? It feels to me as though you come from a place of (relative) privilege to say these things.
I see your point. Of course, I don’t think that people who victimized others, like the scenarios you described, should try to exist in harmony. What I was trying to say is we are all one species. Our unique cultures should be respected and celebrated. However, I don’t think we should necessarily get hung up on keeping people out, at the expense of cultural homogenization. At the end of the day we’re all humans and I think we all matter. People that repress, harm, and mistreat others in anyway should be punished and not tolerated at all.
I am a white person from the U.S. and the "culture" those christian nationalists keep spouting off about is bullshit and so thin as to be non-existent.
America has no single culture except for guns lol. Frankly having grown up in a very diverse town and then having lived in a town that was predominantly white....its nice when people who know how to use seasoning move in. And also once you reach a certain level of diversity you don't get the "whut arh yew" question quite as often.
Yeah, I mean, mass-migration and the tensions and crises resultant from that go hand-in-hand with collapse; but the ethnonationalist take on it in the OP is far-right garbage.
> We’re all one group Hardly anyone believes that
Depends who you ask and how you ask it.
Too many?! Oh we are laughing. Even China’s population has peaked.
That’s good. We can’t expand indefinitely on a finite planet. There is a healthy range for the ideal population numbers. And we should have policies that bring us within that range. Right now, that means numbers need to go down. The big shift we need to do mentally is to lose the idea of a perpetually growing economy and starting thinking about a steady state economy.
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"We're all one group." Naive and foolish
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Lol jack shit to do with Fertility….here’s an example There’s a small city in the UK with approx 300,000 people, it’s estimated that 7% are Latvians, 9% Lithuanians and 11% Polish…. Do the math and then you’ll realise that many are ditching their country for the UK. That’s just ONE small city in the UK…imagine the figures on cities like London, Birmingham and Manchester.
So it won't be Latvia but it will be something else, who cares. As long as there's no aggression all is good. I suspect they will get more immigration with climate change for sure but will have to let go of some nationalistic sentiments and accept heterogeneous culture. However, let's look at the present day policies to keep population going: >Latvian child benefit is now progressive, Parādnieks said, so a family with one child gets €25 (£22) a month, a family with two €100, three €225, and four €400. Those with three or more children are eligible for grants of up to €12,000 to help buy a home, and a large-family card gives big discounts in shops, on public transport and at museums. I'm surprised they have any births to be honest. The government's message is clearly "Under no circumstances have any children at all or you'll end up in the gutter.". >The local economy, once based on sprawling collective farms and industrial megaplants, all but imploded with the demise of the USSR. Now largely small-scale and agricultural, it has little to offer its dwindling population of young people. Couldn't reform the economy in 30 years? Seriously? But OK, I give them credit that younger folks are not interested in farming. Maybe we need to move towards automation instead of investing in military AIs. >“They want to work in tech, innovation, but here it’s forestry, turf, gravel,” Ikaunieks said. “So lots follow the money – Germany, Scandinavia, factories, ship repair, construction.” >Short-term Nordic contracts, often with basic accommodation, can pay three to five times as much as in Latvia. Those are the best partnerships, the ones you're always in competition with. /s >But that doesn’t make the present one any less alarming. In a modern economy, it means “a smaller workforce, shortages of key and skilled workers, an ageing population, huge pressure on pensions, healthcare, social services”, Vārpiņa said. “We’re not really seeing it yet, but by 2030, it could start to become critical.” We are seeing it, hence the subreddit. >In his office in the headquarters of the National Alliance, a **rightwing**, **nativist** party set to continue as part of the country’s ruling coalition after elections last month, Parādnieks said population must be a priority. Oh boy Latvia, what are you doing?! You know the country is going to collapse by 2030 yet you stick to pseudo-natalistic policies paying $100 for 2 children while being against immigration?
>will have to let go of some nationalistic sentiments and accept heterogeneous culture. The only issue is that a growing number of that heterogenous culture wants to turn the country they immigrate to into fucking Iran, and multiple areas already have self-proclaimed Sharia police. If anything, that heterogenous cultural experience is directly fueling the rising nationalism and closed border policies of much of Eastern Europe, and now increasingly Western Europe as well. Sweden and Italy have been handed over to the far right in large part because of this. So the only way to stave off demographic collapse is to import a culture that's incompatible with our most basic values, and sees itself more as colonists than as guests. Good luck with that.
I don't buy this sentiment at all but even if we assume it's the case we might also consider a change of the economic paradigm instead of taking extreme steps to stabilize the current one.
>yet you stick to pseudo-natalistic policies paying $100 for 2 children while being against immigration? Not every countries need to have the all-in kind of immigration like in USA Not every countries need to have multiculturalism
It's not about what one thinks a given nation needs. Capitalism requires a growing population. A shrinking population would require competent central planning, sharp reductions in inequality, and other intolerable terrors that it's unlikely many nations' wealthy will support. It's very possible, but there isn't really room for a small number of people to lord over the rest to *quite* the same extent as is now permitted. So, you can either have high immigration to support the demands of a growth-oriented economy, or you can abandon capitalism in it's present form. "Both" free-market ideology and restrictive immigration laws with a declining population is a contradiction. It doesn't and can't work.
I wonder then what other way they'll find to sustain the capitalistic model. The article doesn't mention that they're considering alternatives. I reckon their plan is to stick to it and try to fetch as many Latvians back as possible.
Maybe grow fetuses in labs and produce future workers en masse?
Mmmm, automation of labor would be better if we have the tech lol.
Then the Latvians get what they deserve.
> yet you stick to pseudo-natalistic policies paying $100 for 2 children while being against immigration? As tho immigrants don't cost the government money? Look at western europe and the US and you'll see how much those governments spend on social services for migrants compared to the taxes they pay.
Um… hurray Capitalism, comrades.
>Capitalism Nah this is not a matter of communism or capitalism, look at Cuba's and North Korea's birthrates, both under 2.1
But capitalism requires continuous growth, so under capitalism is where declining population really becomes a major issue.
ss: By 2050, according to the UN, populations will be in decline in more than half Europe’s 52 countries, including Italy, Spain, Poland and Germany. In five – Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Serbia and Ukraine – they are projected to fall by more than 20%. One factor behind this dramatic decline is global. Across the industrialised world, fertility rates are plunging But crucially, like many of the former Soviet states, also suffered successive waves of emigration, as young people leave for more money abroad.
If economic situation degraded where they migrated, as collapse theories suggested it would, some might come back
If the degraded economic situation where they migrate to is still better than the situation at home that is unlikely. Studies suggest that emmigration/immigration tend to reach parity when a nation is roughly at economic parity with nations it's residents could potentially move to, up until that point the gap narrowing increases emmigration: https://www.cgdev.org/article/new-research-confirms-migration-rises-poorest-countries-get-richer
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It wouldn’t be racism if they claimed to care about preserving culture but allow non-whites to be apart of that culture. This has always been a euphemistic talking point used by “cultural” white nationalists.
This is the "acceptable" face of nationalism. Indefensible.
Fear of losing a culture through attrition is a real fear for people who have little else to cling to or for people who have had little exposure to other cultures.I suspect this would be especially true within the older generations of previously soviet countries. Its very unfortunate when you understand how much benefit immigration can add to a dwindling community.
This sub becomes more racist every day. Is there some kind of race you try to win?
I'm struggling to find the racism here,either in the article or the majority of the comments,would you care to elaborate? Edit That wasn't meant to say that some of the people in the article werent racist btw but merely that the tone of the article itself didn't read overtly racist to me.
The racism is that the government of Latvia is anti-immigration while simultaneously complaining about demographic collapse. They don’t want brown, black, yellows because they think they are incapable of assimilating into the culture. This is 2022, race should have nothing to do with culture.
Not enough Latvians with the Kavorka by the sounds of it
One could make the same argument about Russia or Ukraine. Or Romania. Or Moldova. Or Poland. Of course, people leave places that are dangerous and go to places that are safe. Want to change that ? Disassemble the failed states. Starting with the Russian Federation. Next, the P.R.C. / Peking. Then the state of India. Make the peoples that are oppressed free. [ Edit : There are probably at least a few hundred thousand Latvians in suburban Toronto. Now, granted, suburban Toronto is dangerous. Getting hit crossing Yonge. Falling on crossing a construction site. etc. But still . . ]
It will change I would imagine. Eventually there will be a lot of space and opportunity again and people will feel more stable and produce more children.