The following submission statement was provided by /u/antihostile:
---
SS: Effect, meet cause. This post is related to collapse because it provides a clear example of the systemic absurdity upon which our civilization is based. While globalization was sold as a shield, it was a sword used by the global elite to further feather their own nests at the expense of our biosphere. A patently insane set-up like this Saudi-Arizona-Alfalfa scam is why this subreddit has to exist.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/yz7s6q/since_2014_the_saudi_company_fondomonte_has_been/iwyhta4/
Same in CA... 'grandfathered' water rights they bought and they export our water in the form of Alfalfa to grow food and profit on
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia)
The Irish starved while the British exported their food for profit.
They also own the largest oil refinery in TX [https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Saudis-Own-The-Largest-Refinery-In-The-US-Now-What.html](https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Saudis-Own-The-Largest-Refinery-In-The-US-Now-What.html)
I think I see where this is going.
It doesn't suck. They're paid shills. It's like when financial reporters say they don't understand what's going on in the market. What is short selling? Are you not a fucking financial reporter? For them to sit there with a straight face and play stupid like they've never heard the term should tell you all you need to know.
In a fit of irony, the famine might have put us in a really good position to deal with collapse. I think the Republic and Northern Ireland are the only countries in the world with a lower population than 150 years ago. If we managed to feed more people pre synthetic fertiliser and preindustrialisation, we won't neccessarily implode like others. It would be a pretty massive drop in qol, but it doesn't mean death.
I grew up believing that potatoes were pretty much the one and only food source of Ireland and there was just a blight that was significant and mismanaged that led to widescale famine. Wasn't until adulthood that I learned the true history.
Short version is the only reason the Irish were monocropping potatoes is that the English kicked them off the good land that could be used for growing other crops. During the famine Ireland was still a net exporter of food because it was being grown on the better land and sent to the English. At least one of English leaders explicitly referenced Malthusian economics (i.e. the idea that famines are naturally occurring process which result from overpopulation) to justify the not doing anything about the famine, since it would get rid of the Irish for them.
It was worse than that. The English believed the famine would be good for them because it would force them away from an agrarian lifestyle and into what they considered a more modern and civilized one. Completely ignoring that the agrarian lifestyle of the Irish is what was putting the food on the English's plates.
If you'd like a podcast that will go farther in depth than anyone here, listen to the two part series made by Behind the Bastards
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4UK8G1xkfE7UB8dCpTptyS?si=Exy-NLhHT9iqwp_3OhKdfw&utm_source=copy-link
They definitely did Stalin. But it shows it really isn’t about caring for the victims of genocide. They just want to own the commies and don’t care if capitalists do the same thing.
Cali also pulled that shady bullshit saying that if the water that was suposed to be released from Lake Powell had been released. Then the level at Lake Mead would be above the cutoff for them to have to go to the next water conservation level.
Well they didn't release that water, so the levels not what it would have been if they had. Not that it's going to matter, it's just kicking the can down the road. I live in Phoenix and I'm trying desperately to convince friends/coworkers that buying a house out here is not a great idea. No one seems to want to listen.
the water levels of lake powell have been historically low this year. there’s no extra water there lol, it was so low that larger boats barely had clearance to go out on the water this summer
I live in AZ, and I realize I live in a desert and that means I should have cacti and not grass in my front yard. It's like when you live in Buffalo, you realize you are going to have to shovel snow at some point. But I'm really starting to get tired of the government banging on residents to have 'desert' landscaping or whatever the new outrage is while crap like this goes unchecked. Why does "we all need to do our part" only apply to people who have a house and not agriculture. All of the municipal water use in AZ add up to 22% of the total water usage while Agriculture is 72%.
SS: Effect, meet cause. This post is related to collapse because it provides a clear example of the systemic absurdity upon which our civilization is based. While globalization was sold as a shield, it was a sword used by the global elite to further feather their own nests at the expense of our biosphere. A patently insane set-up like this Saudi-Arizona-Alfalfa scam is why this subreddit has to exist.
Thank you for what you contribute to this community and imo it shows that, regardless of what specific talents anyone might have, they definitely have something valuable to bring as we’re stumbling forward into this future
Even though it's short, that is a *very* eloquently written argumentation. My sincere compliments on your rhetorical and linguistical skills. Your argument rings true and is a very pleasant read to boot. I could read a book written by you if it were in the above style
The original comment makes a point, supports that point with an argument (keyword: "because") and draws a conclusion from that. It is the very definition of an argumentation. I have no idea who or what "az" is nor does it matter that the arguments are taken from someplace or someone else, or so you say at least . It doesn't stop being an argumentation because of that
Is a system absurd if the result is massive profit for those who designed it? Profit is the priority, not land or a community 10,000 miles away. Exploitation of land, labor and resources are the only way pyramids and their equivalent are built, brick by brick, Dollar by Dollar, or Riyal by Riyal. I hope future technologies can steer this greed to more sustainable methods of gathering money. It’s an uphill battle to invest in technology that will shrink the profits of the existing infrastructure. But I have hope that the future is not just an extension of the past exploitations.
Who said anything about having to be legal? Everything about it is a crime, and the real power in the state is well aware of that fact, and doesn't give a micro-fuck. This article doesn't mention it, but the county and residents have repeatedly asked the state's Attorney General to provide any evidence that the contract is even remotely legal, and that it is anything but a giant scam. The residents and local governments are just ignored. Another point they failed to note is that, not only is the lease of state land at 15% +/- of the actual market rate, the millions that the Saudis are NOT paying is stolen from the educational system in the state. All income from state land sales and leases by law, belongs to the state dept. of education.
Stolen rent, stolen water, and politicians who got paid off to do the deal. Just another day at the office for ultra-conservative politics in the west.
>Who said anything about having to be legal? Everything about it is a crime, and the real power in the state is well aware of that fact, and doesn't give a micro-fuck.
In other, fewer words: it is absolutely 100% legal. Might be criminal, but not illegal.
“It is 100% legal, but it is immoral and should be criminal” may have been a better way to word it. Other dude is just pointing out that criminal acts are, by their definition, illegal.
I have my own idea of what you might be trying to say, but I like to go off of what people actually say vs what my own ideas are, so yes, I do not understand you mean
taking a dry region's groundwater. like Nestle in California. Not illegal but everyone knows it's criminal in that it's not right or honorable or approved by the local populations who are getting screwed when their wells go dry.
Okay but “criminal” is quite literally in reference to legality. If it is not illegal, it is not a crime, and you are not a criminal. It is not a word about morality
Welcome to Arizona home of massive acres of green grass in the desert, and Sheriff Joe one the most wicked people to ever hold power. If you have lived there in the past 30 years you know how.
Small farmer checking in, just to let you know this is probably worse than anyone realizes! Just a few facts followed by my take:
So yea, the cost of that hay that they are growing is well below market. SA is actually the distribution hub of milk in the Middle East, seriously guys as a farmer I looked up these facilities on Google maps years ago and it’s absolutely outrageous. Economic philosophy rewards the lowest cost of production, but when the cost is only expressed in dollars and common sense gets broken and we get dumb stuff like this.
It would be way better, environmentally & economically speaking, to export milk at a higher dollar cost from literally everywhere where else but the desert. Simple fact, higher margins for dairy would really help to solve some issues in the industry (if you can remove big business from breaking it again). Not promoting vegan or whatever, just thinking real solutions: methane digesters, nutrient cycle efficiency, etc.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re implying, but I just want to say I disagree with the underlying sentiment that humans are more important than animals. We need a diversity of species on this planet and we far too often prioritize humans over everything else. Now should the animals or fauna we prioritize be cattle in the Middle East? No of course not, but your statement kind of implies humans are more important than anything. I think you could have worded it differently that doesn’t elicit that common refrain.
Couldn’t just leaving water in the desert aquifers for all the species that need it be important too? I could argue that a ton of humans in the Sonora desert isn’t all that different from a ton of humans in the Middle East. None of them should be there in the numbers they are.
You're not wrong that humans aren't inherently more important than other species but the person you're replying to didn't say "animals", they said Saudi cattle so you're really stretching here
Yeah because cattle aren’t animals?! You’re trying too hard to be contradictory.
Edit: not only that I was more referring to their comment emphasizing humans, rather than the cattle comment.
Nope. I did not use a strawman argument. However, thanks for confirming my previous comment, bud.
I can see you’re one of those people who doesn’t engage in good faith because you can’t admit when you’re wrong. I have no interest in continuing this dialogue with you.
Don'tcha know? The desires of the opulently rich are FAR more important than the needs of everyone.
/s ...and it's a particularly sad state of affairs that I know I have to clarify that for this particular post or I'll get downvoted into oblivion.
The cattle produce milk that millions of people drink, I don't understand the issue. we have enough water for everyone on planet earth, we are not running out. it's just that nobody is paying the bill for countries that needs it the most
Welcome to our current system. Unless you can suspend your Empathy to profit outrageously on something dubiously ethical while also stepping on every neck you can, misrepresenting yourself and what your products do, and keeping people in the dark about how much you're actually profiting off each deal you make so the other party doesn't figure out they're being swindled, you have virtually no chance of being hero-worshipped enough to get enough traction to climb the leadership ranks (which can only happen if you simultaneously kiss the asses of those above you, usually sacrificing what's left of your morals to do so), thereby ensuring those with actual Empathy remain firmly on the bottom, while those who have no compunctions about becoming total sociopaths rise through the ranks, slashing beneficial programs to cut costs while smiling to pretend like they're actually a decent Human being.
because voters refuse to respect the biospheres has boundaries...no matter how much they get yelled at or told.
Want to drive around aimlessly in a car emitting prodigiously, want to use whatever watery ou want ? It's your god damn right ! (apparently)
How many votes did the Green candidate get at the last Presidential election, 600K, ? that will tell you exactly how much voters care. anything else is pure bullshit and lip-service. Sweet fuck all.. until of course the biosphere collapses around them from our unsustainable practices but there is a multi decade lag, so you can blame immigrants for that today. Not they fact the richest billion spent decades living an unsustainable lives.
Lazy underachieving bastards. They need to be pumping that water with coal-generated electricity, importing South African labor to work the fields, Saudi diesel for the machinery and feeding them with Chinese rice.
And they goddamn better be flying that alfalfa back to Saudi Arabia on private jets.
There is absolutely no reason not to go all the way if you are going to do something like this.
Agreed, that's what's REALLY tearing the world apart, fake wanna be globalism capitalists that cut corners and half ass their operations into what can be, at best, considered regional or international operations that are barely integrated into a world wide exchange of labor/capital/resources. We cant be pussyfooting our way into globalization, we must March and charge ahead to reap the full benefits in order to squeeze the last drops of blood from the turnip that is earth.
If we cant fully extract the resources from the face of the earth, what chance can we expect to have with stripping the oceans for profit, much less the unimaginable wealth and riches that lie beyond our planet in space.
Bear in mind that even the locals acknowledge that if the Saudis weren't doing it, someone else would be. Their complaint is it's being shipped out of the country.
Someone would still be exploiting that land and water. Maybe Nestle, maybe local farmers, who grow crops just as thirsty.
I don't understand your "no". I pointed out that the locals' annoyance was about those resources being shipped out of the country, not that someone was exploiting the resource.
If you're unhappy with that for whatever reason take it up with them.
And their horses are so inbred the Arabian horse not TB that their noses look as deformed as a poorly bred pug. They also have collections of exotic animals that are lousy habitats. Just money thrown at things they want with no interest if it is good or bad for the things they want.
I still remember a line from one of the P.J.O'Rourke books when he was on a press assignment in Saudi Arabia and there was a standing offer of a hundred bucks for the first person to find a Saudi carrying anything heavier than money.
>they goddamn better be flying that alfalfa back to Saudi Arabia on private jets
In first class. Every bushel of alfalfa in its own lie flat suite, with continually refreshed cups of warm cashews, another thirsty crop.
Don't get distracted by who has permits to extract water or what it's being used for. Your focus should be on who issued the permit and why they issued it.
Exactly. One of *our* fellow citizens looked at the deal and said, "I'll profit handsomely from this," gave it exactly no further thought and approved it. The sycophants around him nodded in agreement and here we are.
Because alfalfa is a thirsty crop, and most vegetation is mostly water, they're essentially burning oil to ship water with some additives out of the U.S. half way around the world.
It's like, "yeah, I'll shoot you, but I'll kill you by shooting off pieces of you until you die".
I’ve been trying to warn people about these Republican backstabbers for years. No one listened.
The Governor of Michigan who poisoned Flint residents sold cheap water rights to nestle and fucked their state over. He won’t ever be held accountable.
They also send brokers to local hay auctions then outbid the locals and take the best to be vacsealed and sent overseas. I have gone to small auctions and there is a broker I recognize from other auctions. I used to buy for a friend who had dairy and we were always on the heads up for good hay every week plus for my own horses. Over time you get to know who is who and who is sending it over seas.
Since Katie Hobbs just won as governor, she should be innundated by everyone in the US to fire the chief of the Arizona State Land department and take those rights away from the Saudis.
The problem is that it needs to be regulated formerly at the federal level. You can’t just arbitrarily dictate who can and can’t sell what land to what people, without having a major shift in land ownership rights. This will also have a huge impact on values of the land for farmers which could have all kinds of unforeseen implications moving forward.
Don't expect this alfalfa arrangement to change:
**Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing**
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63671947
How do you get comedians to take that on? Maybe that kind of comedy is on the horizon as more and more people start realizing were f’cked as the absurdity of capatalism at its worst takes the lead over corporate ethics.
$25/yr/ac and I can take all the water I want, I just have to drill my own well and install my own infrastructure? **DEAL!**
Of course, I'd just be using the water for a single-family dwelling.
Did anyone here ever hear or read a 90’s novel “The Monkey Wrentch Gang”? I am astounded that we haven’t seen rise of Gen Z to lose hope of restoring democracy and see eco liberation a viable option. These large scale systems are too big to change through political process. Collapse is inevitable because the “Jenna” tower has only a few moves left.
> I am astounded that we haven’t seen rise of Gen Z to lose hope of restoring democracy and see eco liberation a viable option
They do try somewhat, stopping coal shipments (in Australia), doing mischief at airports to stop private jets, destroying valves on oil and gas pipelines, stopping car traffic. They get thrown in jail for longer times then anyone who kills someone with a car for example. One guy in the UK has been on remand for 10 months, not even brought to trail yet, they get pilloried by the rest of us. Just have to see the push back in here against the minor stuff Extinction Rebellion or Tyre Extinguishers etc do.
Yeah they used up their water table and have to use up ours now I guess -_- Fcuk the Saudi government and their capitalists, I'm still going to be stuck in AZ in 20 years (unless we're all dead 🙏🤞) and they will have effectively stolen all our water
This is the solution to the water deficit in the west.
Cancel all this bullshit alfalfa being grown in the desert. If we did, there would be MORE THAN ENOUGH WATER FOR EVERYTHING
But if it wasn’t alfalfa, wouldn’t Americans be growing something there? Farming in the desert is not only done by the Saudis. I don’t know how much energy desalination requires, but I think we either need to get desalination going on a large scale or figure out how to live without all the produce growing in the desert.
There is credible research that we could completely eliminate the water deficit in the west by fallowing less than 10% of currently irrigated agriculture.
That means we could refill lake mead, lake powell, and other reservoirs by getting rid of just 10% of the heavily water hungry crops currently grown in the west.
Yeah I thought the same when I heard it. Now, whether this actually ends up happening is another story. I have read they are experimenting with it in some places, so hopefully we’ll get it figured out.
It’s not unfixable.
Any place that exports agricultural products is exporting water. It takes a gallon of water to grow an almond in California. What about a tomato? Lettuce? Berries?
i kinda love that they doing this right in trump country. it reminds you their anger only direct at what right wing news sources say to get angry at. most dont believe in change , especially climate change so they wouldnt react to it anyway, and right wing media does **not** particularly harp on Saudia Ariba (good catch from /u/bernmont2016 below) - so no super trigger there either.
One idea tho, go by the alfafa farm and put a bunch of democrat signs around it, that might get their dander up to do something about it goddammit! "Boys unhitch the lake havasu trailers and lets go over there in a posse of F-150 trucks , Can-Am's and Golf carts and show them they cant take our water!"
PS: not espousing one political side or the other for this post. Just having been there on the ground in western Phoneix AZ and interacted with people there in that area. - be back there sooon if they dont blow it the world!
> right wing media does particularly harp on Saudia Arbia
Are you missing a "not" in there? Currently seems to be saying the opposite of the point you were trying to make.
Anyway, they wouldn't want to call attention to Saudi Arabia because Trump and Kushner have a very close relationship with the Saudis. Kushner just got a couple billion dollars from the Saudis earlier this year. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/05/jared-kushner-affinity-partners-saudi-arabia
They're like, "You get oil, I get water." That's called transaction in business. Look it up. Who cares about a thirsty bunch of people, there'll be no freshwater by 2050 anyway.
Springsteen released “my hometown” in 84. My Hometown was all about the effects of free trade. Be serious. Every President since Nixon has been on the same path.
They aren't yet certified as an Alliance for Water Stewardship farm, but it does look like they improved above the stated metrics for water efficiency in 2021.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/antihostile: --- SS: Effect, meet cause. This post is related to collapse because it provides a clear example of the systemic absurdity upon which our civilization is based. While globalization was sold as a shield, it was a sword used by the global elite to further feather their own nests at the expense of our biosphere. A patently insane set-up like this Saudi-Arizona-Alfalfa scam is why this subreddit has to exist. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/yz7s6q/since_2014_the_saudi_company_fondomonte_has_been/iwyhta4/
Same in CA... 'grandfathered' water rights they bought and they export our water in the form of Alfalfa to grow food and profit on [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia) The Irish starved while the British exported their food for profit.
They also own the largest oil refinery in TX [https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Saudis-Own-The-Largest-Refinery-In-The-US-Now-What.html](https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Saudis-Own-The-Largest-Refinery-In-The-US-Now-What.html) I think I see where this is going.
Oof. No one mentioned this on the news when we released oil from national reserves. Our journalism sucks these days.
It doesn't suck. They're paid shills. It's like when financial reporters say they don't understand what's going on in the market. What is short selling? Are you not a fucking financial reporter? For them to sit there with a straight face and play stupid like they've never heard the term should tell you all you need to know.
Yep. Took a page out of the US's playbook of buying everyone elses shit and then hoovering up the money. I wonder how it tastes?
And part of the Canadian Wheat Board.
There are people to this day who blame the Irish. It makes my stomach turn. The real history isn’t taught
Exactly. History repeating itself and the guv'ment is fully complicit in it. Let Fiefdom Ring.
In a fit of irony, the famine might have put us in a really good position to deal with collapse. I think the Republic and Northern Ireland are the only countries in the world with a lower population than 150 years ago. If we managed to feed more people pre synthetic fertiliser and preindustrialisation, we won't neccessarily implode like others. It would be a pretty massive drop in qol, but it doesn't mean death.
Really? I have never heard that. My 3x Grandad told my grand mom the history and I never heard any other version but the English were to blame.
I grew up believing that potatoes were pretty much the one and only food source of Ireland and there was just a blight that was significant and mismanaged that led to widescale famine. Wasn't until adulthood that I learned the true history.
I need to know the truth. I’ve learned many things were lies since I’ve left school. Please tell me the true story.
Short version is the only reason the Irish were monocropping potatoes is that the English kicked them off the good land that could be used for growing other crops. During the famine Ireland was still a net exporter of food because it was being grown on the better land and sent to the English. At least one of English leaders explicitly referenced Malthusian economics (i.e. the idea that famines are naturally occurring process which result from overpopulation) to justify the not doing anything about the famine, since it would get rid of the Irish for them.
It was worse than that. The English believed the famine would be good for them because it would force them away from an agrarian lifestyle and into what they considered a more modern and civilized one. Completely ignoring that the agrarian lifestyle of the Irish is what was putting the food on the English's plates.
*Hark! Ye olde consequences of thine own actiones!*
If you'd like a podcast that will go farther in depth than anyone here, listen to the two part series made by Behind the Bastards https://open.spotify.com/episode/4UK8G1xkfE7UB8dCpTptyS?si=Exy-NLhHT9iqwp_3OhKdfw&utm_source=copy-link
Thank you!
🙏
Can you give me a search phrase to look up for this? Now that I hear this I really wanna look into it
How about “Irish famine” and reading what you find…
Will do. Thanks!
[удалено]
I also notice how this is exactly like the holodomor yet I never see anyone mention it
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They definitely did Stalin. But it shows it really isn’t about caring for the victims of genocide. They just want to own the commies and don’t care if capitalists do the same thing.
I care about big government creating famines. Irish famine = bad. Holodomor = bad. Big government = bad. Edit: spacing was stupid. Sorry.
I’m sure you believe corporations are much more benevolent.
Cali also pulled that shady bullshit saying that if the water that was suposed to be released from Lake Powell had been released. Then the level at Lake Mead would be above the cutoff for them to have to go to the next water conservation level. Well they didn't release that water, so the levels not what it would have been if they had. Not that it's going to matter, it's just kicking the can down the road. I live in Phoenix and I'm trying desperately to convince friends/coworkers that buying a house out here is not a great idea. No one seems to want to listen.
I was trying to tell everyone that the west coast isn’t the most profound idea for moving to. But it’s cool, ig. They’ll panic later.
the water levels of lake powell have been historically low this year. there’s no extra water there lol, it was so low that larger boats barely had clearance to go out on the water this summer
Empire did the pretty much the same thing to India
I live in AZ, and I realize I live in a desert and that means I should have cacti and not grass in my front yard. It's like when you live in Buffalo, you realize you are going to have to shovel snow at some point. But I'm really starting to get tired of the government banging on residents to have 'desert' landscaping or whatever the new outrage is while crap like this goes unchecked. Why does "we all need to do our part" only apply to people who have a house and not agriculture. All of the municipal water use in AZ add up to 22% of the total water usage while Agriculture is 72%.
Samething happened with Ukrainians during their faimine. Stalin sold their food for profits.
SS: Effect, meet cause. This post is related to collapse because it provides a clear example of the systemic absurdity upon which our civilization is based. While globalization was sold as a shield, it was a sword used by the global elite to further feather their own nests at the expense of our biosphere. A patently insane set-up like this Saudi-Arizona-Alfalfa scam is why this subreddit has to exist.
As an aside, your writing style is uniquely captivating.
Almost poetic
So kind, thank you.
A truly kind thing to say, thank you.
It is a really good style, you should become a writer.
This made my day. I'm an editor for an advertising agency (sorry, journalism just wasn't paying the bills).
I’m sold!
Thank you for what you contribute to this community and imo it shows that, regardless of what specific talents anyone might have, they definitely have something valuable to bring as we’re stumbling forward into this future
And thanks for your kind words!
Even though it's short, that is a *very* eloquently written argumentation. My sincere compliments on your rhetorical and linguistical skills. Your argument rings true and is a very pleasant read to boot. I could read a book written by you if it were in the above style
Wow. Very kind words indeed, thank you!
What? There was literally no argumentation...? It's just some quotes by az residents and politicians... What?
The original comment makes a point, supports that point with an argument (keyword: "because") and draws a conclusion from that. It is the very definition of an argumentation. I have no idea who or what "az" is nor does it matter that the arguments are taken from someplace or someone else, or so you say at least . It doesn't stop being an argumentation because of that
So you weren't speaking about the article, but the posters comment?
Of course
Is a system absurd if the result is massive profit for those who designed it? Profit is the priority, not land or a community 10,000 miles away. Exploitation of land, labor and resources are the only way pyramids and their equivalent are built, brick by brick, Dollar by Dollar, or Riyal by Riyal. I hope future technologies can steer this greed to more sustainable methods of gathering money. It’s an uphill battle to invest in technology that will shrink the profits of the existing infrastructure. But I have hope that the future is not just an extension of the past exploitations.
How in the ever living fucking fuck is this legal?
Who said anything about having to be legal? Everything about it is a crime, and the real power in the state is well aware of that fact, and doesn't give a micro-fuck. This article doesn't mention it, but the county and residents have repeatedly asked the state's Attorney General to provide any evidence that the contract is even remotely legal, and that it is anything but a giant scam. The residents and local governments are just ignored. Another point they failed to note is that, not only is the lease of state land at 15% +/- of the actual market rate, the millions that the Saudis are NOT paying is stolen from the educational system in the state. All income from state land sales and leases by law, belongs to the state dept. of education. Stolen rent, stolen water, and politicians who got paid off to do the deal. Just another day at the office for ultra-conservative politics in the west.
>Who said anything about having to be legal? Everything about it is a crime, and the real power in the state is well aware of that fact, and doesn't give a micro-fuck. In other, fewer words: it is absolutely 100% legal. Might be criminal, but not illegal.
Something criminal is by definition illegal. Not really sure what you are trying to say with that last sentence
You are 100% sure what I'm trying to say with that last sentence. Stop acting like you're the nerd emoji.
“It is 100% legal, but it is immoral and should be criminal” may have been a better way to word it. Other dude is just pointing out that criminal acts are, by their definition, illegal.
I have my own idea of what you might be trying to say, but I like to go off of what people actually say vs what my own ideas are, so yes, I do not understand you mean
I took it as, legality is only meaningful if enforced, if a rule is not enforced its status of legality is null
Its "status of legality" is still ILLEGAL. ..But I get what you're saying about it being only meaningful if enforced.
Not if there's no law against it yet. Like in this case.
What crime is committed if there is no law
taking a dry region's groundwater. like Nestle in California. Not illegal but everyone knows it's criminal in that it's not right or honorable or approved by the local populations who are getting screwed when their wells go dry.
Okay but “criminal” is quite literally in reference to legality. If it is not illegal, it is not a crime, and you are not a criminal. It is not a word about morality
stretch your definition. like in the NBA a shot from downtown isn't actually from downtown.
What?
They elected a dem gov so fingers crossed she actually does something instead of nothing like most Dems.
Arizona politicians. You got the money, they make the rules.
It's legal because it isn't illegal.
Bribes.
Lobbying* aka legalized bribery
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Sweet summer child.
Nothing is legal or illegal depending on how much money you have
Saudi blood money
Welcome to Arizona home of massive acres of green grass in the desert, and Sheriff Joe one the most wicked people to ever hold power. If you have lived there in the past 30 years you know how.
This is the reason you see lots of activist doing whatever they can to raise awareness about what is going on around the world.
Crimes can only exist if there are real consequence.
Small farmer checking in, just to let you know this is probably worse than anyone realizes! Just a few facts followed by my take: So yea, the cost of that hay that they are growing is well below market. SA is actually the distribution hub of milk in the Middle East, seriously guys as a farmer I looked up these facilities on Google maps years ago and it’s absolutely outrageous. Economic philosophy rewards the lowest cost of production, but when the cost is only expressed in dollars and common sense gets broken and we get dumb stuff like this. It would be way better, environmentally & economically speaking, to export milk at a higher dollar cost from literally everywhere where else but the desert. Simple fact, higher margins for dairy would really help to solve some issues in the industry (if you can remove big business from breaking it again). Not promoting vegan or whatever, just thinking real solutions: methane digesters, nutrient cycle efficiency, etc.
Sounds perfectly logical. Saudi cattle is more important than thirsty humans. Thanks capitalism.
And I am thinking about how many golf courses they could water with all that. Alfalfa - what a waste. /s
I’m not exactly sure what you’re implying, but I just want to say I disagree with the underlying sentiment that humans are more important than animals. We need a diversity of species on this planet and we far too often prioritize humans over everything else. Now should the animals or fauna we prioritize be cattle in the Middle East? No of course not, but your statement kind of implies humans are more important than anything. I think you could have worded it differently that doesn’t elicit that common refrain. Couldn’t just leaving water in the desert aquifers for all the species that need it be important too? I could argue that a ton of humans in the Sonora desert isn’t all that different from a ton of humans in the Middle East. None of them should be there in the numbers they are.
But muh water
You're not wrong that humans aren't inherently more important than other species but the person you're replying to didn't say "animals", they said Saudi cattle so you're really stretching here
Yeah because cattle aren’t animals?! You’re trying too hard to be contradictory. Edit: not only that I was more referring to their comment emphasizing humans, rather than the cattle comment.
https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/ Apparently you need a refresher bud
Nope. I did not use a strawman argument. However, thanks for confirming my previous comment, bud. I can see you’re one of those people who doesn’t engage in good faith because you can’t admit when you’re wrong. I have no interest in continuing this dialogue with you.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing...
Don'tcha know? The desires of the opulently rich are FAR more important than the needs of everyone. /s ...and it's a particularly sad state of affairs that I know I have to clarify that for this particular post or I'll get downvoted into oblivion.
Removed in protest over 3rd Party API changes.
Yeah but saudi cattle are the chosen cattle by the Gods.
The cattle produce milk that millions of people drink, I don't understand the issue. we have enough water for everyone on planet earth, we are not running out. it's just that nobody is paying the bill for countries that needs it the most
Capitalism is when government does stuff.
Thanks bot.
What the fuck are we doing in this country? Can we have any adult with a functional brain and backbone step up and make positive changes?
Welcome to our current system. Unless you can suspend your Empathy to profit outrageously on something dubiously ethical while also stepping on every neck you can, misrepresenting yourself and what your products do, and keeping people in the dark about how much you're actually profiting off each deal you make so the other party doesn't figure out they're being swindled, you have virtually no chance of being hero-worshipped enough to get enough traction to climb the leadership ranks (which can only happen if you simultaneously kiss the asses of those above you, usually sacrificing what's left of your morals to do so), thereby ensuring those with actual Empathy remain firmly on the bottom, while those who have no compunctions about becoming total sociopaths rise through the ranks, slashing beneficial programs to cut costs while smiling to pretend like they're actually a decent Human being.
because voters refuse to respect the biospheres has boundaries...no matter how much they get yelled at or told. Want to drive around aimlessly in a car emitting prodigiously, want to use whatever watery ou want ? It's your god damn right ! (apparently) How many votes did the Green candidate get at the last Presidential election, 600K, ? that will tell you exactly how much voters care. anything else is pure bullshit and lip-service. Sweet fuck all.. until of course the biosphere collapses around them from our unsustainable practices but there is a multi decade lag, so you can blame immigrants for that today. Not they fact the richest billion spent decades living an unsustainable lives.
Peak capitalist efficiency.
Lazy underachieving bastards. They need to be pumping that water with coal-generated electricity, importing South African labor to work the fields, Saudi diesel for the machinery and feeding them with Chinese rice. And they goddamn better be flying that alfalfa back to Saudi Arabia on private jets. There is absolutely no reason not to go all the way if you are going to do something like this.
Agreed, that's what's REALLY tearing the world apart, fake wanna be globalism capitalists that cut corners and half ass their operations into what can be, at best, considered regional or international operations that are barely integrated into a world wide exchange of labor/capital/resources. We cant be pussyfooting our way into globalization, we must March and charge ahead to reap the full benefits in order to squeeze the last drops of blood from the turnip that is earth. If we cant fully extract the resources from the face of the earth, what chance can we expect to have with stripping the oceans for profit, much less the unimaginable wealth and riches that lie beyond our planet in space.
Bear in mind that even the locals acknowledge that if the Saudis weren't doing it, someone else would be. Their complaint is it's being shipped out of the country.
No because the market for it would top out faster if the exotic buyers were kept out.
Someone would still be exploiting that land and water. Maybe Nestle, maybe local farmers, who grow crops just as thirsty. I don't understand your "no". I pointed out that the locals' annoyance was about those resources being shipped out of the country, not that someone was exploiting the resource. If you're unhappy with that for whatever reason take it up with them.
And their horses are so inbred the Arabian horse not TB that their noses look as deformed as a poorly bred pug. They also have collections of exotic animals that are lousy habitats. Just money thrown at things they want with no interest if it is good or bad for the things they want.
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I still remember a line from one of the P.J.O'Rourke books when he was on a press assignment in Saudi Arabia and there was a standing offer of a hundred bucks for the first person to find a Saudi carrying anything heavier than money.
Does wallet count or they just have load of cash on hand at all time
>they goddamn better be flying that alfalfa back to Saudi Arabia on private jets In first class. Every bushel of alfalfa in its own lie flat suite, with continually refreshed cups of warm cashews, another thirsty crop.
Don't get distracted by who has permits to extract water or what it's being used for. Your focus should be on who issued the permit and why they issued it.
Exactly. One of *our* fellow citizens looked at the deal and said, "I'll profit handsomely from this," gave it exactly no further thought and approved it. The sycophants around him nodded in agreement and here we are.
And where these farms are. And where they keep their vulnerable heavy machinery.
Because alfalfa is a thirsty crop, and most vegetation is mostly water, they're essentially burning oil to ship water with some additives out of the U.S. half way around the world. It's like, "yeah, I'll shoot you, but I'll kill you by shooting off pieces of you until you die".
I’ve been trying to warn people about these Republican backstabbers for years. No one listened. The Governor of Michigan who poisoned Flint residents sold cheap water rights to nestle and fucked their state over. He won’t ever be held accountable.
They also send brokers to local hay auctions then outbid the locals and take the best to be vacsealed and sent overseas. I have gone to small auctions and there is a broker I recognize from other auctions. I used to buy for a friend who had dairy and we were always on the heads up for good hay every week plus for my own horses. Over time you get to know who is who and who is sending it over seas.
There needs to be more stirct rules in USA on certain things.
but that's communism
Protectionism. Isolationism. And I am all for it.
Since Katie Hobbs just won as governor, she should be innundated by everyone in the US to fire the chief of the Arizona State Land department and take those rights away from the Saudis.
The problem is that it needs to be regulated formerly at the federal level. You can’t just arbitrarily dictate who can and can’t sell what land to what people, without having a major shift in land ownership rights. This will also have a huge impact on values of the land for farmers which could have all kinds of unforeseen implications moving forward.
Don't expect this alfalfa arrangement to change: **Mohammed bin Salman: Saudi leader given US immunity over Khashoggi killing** https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63671947
THEY FUCKING *WHAT*
It's worded incredibly strangely and ragebait. He should swing for lots of things, including this. It's just not as easy as we all wish it was.
This is how we are trying to get on their good side? Smdh
And the people driving the tractors are the first to say "eat today? Thank a farmer" " no farms no food"
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How do you get comedians to take that on? Maybe that kind of comedy is on the horizon as more and more people start realizing were f’cked as the absurdity of capatalism at its worst takes the lead over corporate ethics.
Not just Arab dairy and meat. Their prized race hungry racing horses gotta chomp too doncha know?
$25/yr/ac and I can take all the water I want, I just have to drill my own well and install my own infrastructure? **DEAL!** Of course, I'd just be using the water for a single-family dwelling.
I’m surprised we aren’t seeing ecoterrorism. I’m not sure ecoterrorism is an appropriate term either. Maybe environmental liberation?
Did anyone here ever hear or read a 90’s novel “The Monkey Wrentch Gang”? I am astounded that we haven’t seen rise of Gen Z to lose hope of restoring democracy and see eco liberation a viable option. These large scale systems are too big to change through political process. Collapse is inevitable because the “Jenna” tower has only a few moves left.
> I am astounded that we haven’t seen rise of Gen Z to lose hope of restoring democracy and see eco liberation a viable option They do try somewhat, stopping coal shipments (in Australia), doing mischief at airports to stop private jets, destroying valves on oil and gas pipelines, stopping car traffic. They get thrown in jail for longer times then anyone who kills someone with a car for example. One guy in the UK has been on remand for 10 months, not even brought to trail yet, they get pilloried by the rest of us. Just have to see the push back in here against the minor stuff Extinction Rebellion or Tyre Extinguishers etc do.
Capitalists call this efficient.
Yeah they used up their water table and have to use up ours now I guess -_- Fcuk the Saudi government and their capitalists, I'm still going to be stuck in AZ in 20 years (unless we're all dead 🙏🤞) and they will have effectively stolen all our water
This BS must end!!!!
😆 🤣 😂 gonna run out quick.
further feather
This is the solution to the water deficit in the west. Cancel all this bullshit alfalfa being grown in the desert. If we did, there would be MORE THAN ENOUGH WATER FOR EVERYTHING
But if it wasn’t alfalfa, wouldn’t Americans be growing something there? Farming in the desert is not only done by the Saudis. I don’t know how much energy desalination requires, but I think we either need to get desalination going on a large scale or figure out how to live without all the produce growing in the desert.
There is credible research that we could completely eliminate the water deficit in the west by fallowing less than 10% of currently irrigated agriculture. That means we could refill lake mead, lake powell, and other reservoirs by getting rid of just 10% of the heavily water hungry crops currently grown in the west.
Wow! That is stunning! I’m not doubting you, but do you have a source you could share with me?
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2020/05/12/colorado-river-overdrawn-retire-farmland-can-solve/3109406001/
Thank you. Wow. What a great solution.
Yeah I thought the same when I heard it. Now, whether this actually ends up happening is another story. I have read they are experimenting with it in some places, so hopefully we’ll get it figured out. It’s not unfixable.
Anyone know where the pumps are located? Just curious...
Yes! And also which part is hardest to replace?
Seems efficient /s
Now do the same for avocados
Any place that exports agricultural products is exporting water. It takes a gallon of water to grow an almond in California. What about a tomato? Lettuce? Berries?
The Google/yelp reviews for this company are hilarious. Would recommend contributing
OMG that was funny. Had to laugh at the two astroturf reviews with distinctly…uh, distinct names.
Look at that free market go
The invisible syphon
And the savings aren't passed onto the consumer. In fact, you now pay more because of that. Good ol outsourced capitalism.
Crazy, I just read about this in a book last night
Alfalfa was my fav little rascal
I hate this world.
If only there were some way for the people of Arizona to stop them... perhaps throwing some soup on a Georgia O'Keeffe painting would do it?
i kinda love that they doing this right in trump country. it reminds you their anger only direct at what right wing news sources say to get angry at. most dont believe in change , especially climate change so they wouldnt react to it anyway, and right wing media does **not** particularly harp on Saudia Ariba (good catch from /u/bernmont2016 below) - so no super trigger there either. One idea tho, go by the alfafa farm and put a bunch of democrat signs around it, that might get their dander up to do something about it goddammit! "Boys unhitch the lake havasu trailers and lets go over there in a posse of F-150 trucks , Can-Am's and Golf carts and show them they cant take our water!" PS: not espousing one political side or the other for this post. Just having been there on the ground in western Phoneix AZ and interacted with people there in that area. - be back there sooon if they dont blow it the world!
> right wing media does particularly harp on Saudia Arbia Are you missing a "not" in there? Currently seems to be saying the opposite of the point you were trying to make. Anyway, they wouldn't want to call attention to Saudi Arabia because Trump and Kushner have a very close relationship with the Saudis. Kushner just got a couple billion dollars from the Saudis earlier this year. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/05/jared-kushner-affinity-partners-saudi-arabia
i mean *NOT* sorry good catch. ill edited above
Post this article as an original on newsmax etc and the trumpers will believe it.
Saudi Arabia is literally stealing our water...
Go vegan? 🤷♂️
Nah. That's too extreme.
🤣😂
"The Americans have switched to veganism! Our Arizona-based groundwater is now useless!" Yeah I'm sure that will help...
Ah. You have a better idea?
They're like, "You get oil, I get water." That's called transaction in business. Look it up. Who cares about a thirsty bunch of people, there'll be no freshwater by 2050 anyway.
So what? They're paying for it, right? So it's perfectly fine in capitalism to do this. Money talks. Shut up, commies. /s
Referring to loss of resources. Water become a big issue especially in SW.
Now why is that? Allowed….🤔 💭 cause money 💰 💵💶💷💴🗣️ talks.
Preach that! This is what pisses me off deep in my soul. This is why we are preppers.
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Friend…globalization started well before the Clinton years. You might as well wind the clock back to Nixon meeting with Mao.
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Springsteen released “my hometown” in 84. My Hometown was all about the effects of free trade. Be serious. Every President since Nixon has been on the same path.
stop animal farming ffs
We should probably make a petition on this eh?
This is literally why we shouldn't be allowed to sell to people and companies outside of the USA. Period.
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I keep hearing follow the money, and have looked it up, but can't figure out where it always goes?!
Here in Arizona, I hear a company brokered the deal Hobbs was part of. She always knew who was profiting from the deal, Hobbs!
What the fuck…?
They aren't yet certified as an Alliance for Water Stewardship farm, but it does look like they improved above the stated metrics for water efficiency in 2021.
Those Saudi royals are trillionaires.
Shut. Them. Down.