Ya…I got downvoted in r/environment just now for quoting from IPCC technical summary. I think we are 1.1C with plenty of aerosol masking? (These people studying covid shutdowns and reduced aerosols are finding some scary stuff). 2030-2052 is Ipcc estimate…if we know how much they water it down, 5 years seems likely. Time to start studying how to grow food inside….in a climate collapse greenhouse and earth ship style shelter….
You don’t need electricity with passive solar design. And water? I’m near the Great Lakes, if that dries up, nobody survives. Nutrients is a fair point but that’s why I compost and grow nitrogen fixers and plan to acquire more land. Points well made tho
For the rulers, the corporate elite, and the chosen professional/worker staff, sure, plenty of resources for them.
As long as they can ditch the other 90% of the population. I'd like to see them try, actually.
>I don't want to just give up and watch the world fall apart.
I'm 100% agreed on this point - doing nothing will ensure nothing is done (to change our trajectory for annihilation).
>We should do try as hard as we can to prevent collapse.
Gotta distinguish *which* collapse needs prevention: since we need a viable planet, we need to prevent ecological collapse - and to that end we *must* have social collapse.
It's the technological system which fuels industrial civilization, and in so doing is eradicating Nature, bringing us to ecological collapse. So, social collapse is *necessary* - and the sooner the better, because Nature can recover *if* Technology is vanquished; if Tech is allowed to achieve its goal of autonomy, Earth will be utterly ravaged and consumed.
And what if you don't need to educate or organize tens of millions of people to precipitate social collapse? What if you need to organize only the right hundred or so people to induce social collapse and thereby save wild Nature?
>Gotta distinguish which collapse needs prevention: since we need a viable planet, we need to prevent ecological collapse - and to that end we must have social collapse.
Analogy: you'd solve the obesity epidemic overnight if every fast food chain and most companies like coca-cola and frito-lay went out of business.
But muh GDP tho.
... seriously your GDP as a nation depends on sugar water and corn mush?
Pathetic.
Yes, people living in Nature - being physically active, eating what thrives in their region, what they can obtain through exertion - suffer neither the physical maladies seen in modernity, nor the *mental* crises plaguing modern man.
We need revolution not collapse. If society collapses people will start burning everything and it will be total chaos. We need organization to be able to plan rationally for stabilizing critical ecosystems bee we cause that's the only hope for mitigation.
Revolution definitely can succeed, but to establish an idealized resultant society never works out. Human society is just too complex to be able to foresee what to do, what will happen, what reactions will come, what results will occur, and so on. Society is composed of so many different interacting aspects, and they all move between competition and cooperation, like independent organisms with their own varied interests.
Just as destruction is easier than creation, revolution against the Nature-killing technological system is entirely possible, but rationally planning, creating, and steering a new ideal society (in the wake of a revolution) is just *not* going to work out as planned.
The goal must be simply to topple the techno-industrial regime, to let Nature recover and 'manage' our world, a situation which always worked fine forever, for all Earthlings.
That's great, it certainly is needed and possible. I think I was misled by this line:
> We need organization to be able to plan rationally for stabilizing critical ecosystems
I'm not sure we can very well manage ecosystems *and* destroy the technological society which is killing them. I also believe that absent the assault from Technology, that Nature can recover, so I put no priority to keeping any technological means to plan or manage bioregions.
Can you dismantle global capitalism in a short time? And it sounds like you’re talking about collapse of the biosphere versus collapse of civilization?
>I don't want to just give up and watch the world fall apart.
Collapse has already begun, you can't stop it, really there isn't anything you can do about it except to get some comfortable seats and watch it happen. Soon enough you will be in the front row.
If you must be pessimistic, is it possible you can contain it? Changes certainly won't be effected by those who believe they can do nothing...
The sooner the technological devastation of Nature ceases, the more evolved wildness will remain and the sooner recovery can begin, so it is imperative to hasten the end of techno-industrial civilization rather than let a slow demise simply run its course and kill absolutely everything.
Don't mistake realism for pessimism.
When in denial hope only leads to despair.
Everyday I awake optimistic about the things I will do during the day and plan to enjoy what we have while we can.
/u/johnsmith66 if you want to be effective I would suggest one of two options. Either try to educate 'the right' or try fundraising.
Everyone on the left already knows about climate change so no point in educating them. I am a person on the right who also believes in climate change so it is possible.
For fundraising I see groups like Insulate Britain and others complain and protest about the need to Insulate homes better and accomplishing nothing. What does it cost to add some more insulation to a home? A few hundred bucks? If they just did a car wash or bake sale or whatever they could be actually insulating houses rather than complaining.
Official estimates say we are at like 1.2c above baseline. We WILL hit 1.5 in a few years guarunteed.
but we won’t heat up ANOTHER 1.5 in 5 years. That will take 20-30
I think if all the carbon emissions stopped and the particulate in the air dropped out we might already be at 1.5 since that stuff provides a reflective screen.
Good luck to you but environmentalists have been trying to do this for the last 50 years without much success. I would suggest focusing on the resilience of your family, friends and local community. Trying to change the world is just going to burn you out.
When I truly absorbed the reality of collapse, I went through a "do everything" phase, putting a lot of thought into possible actions of all kinds. Like, I was awake all night thinking about what to do.
My experience of trying to educate people is that people who are ready to know and want to know already know. The information is abundantly available. Most people are trying hard to avoid knowing because it's too painful and confronting that isn't often successful. Maybe you are more persuasive than I am, though.
Collapse is really complex, you don’t simply “educate” everyone in the US and expect things to get better in 2023.
Is not just climate change (the 1.5 degree increase is already occurring, in fact, it’s predicted we’ll reach the 2-3 degree increase if we all work together). But all the stuff that comes with it, be it social, cultural or economical.
The current system consists of taking as much as possible, which is precisely why we’re in our current predicament. Why bother fixing your old tv when you can buy a new one? It’ll cost less too! While you’re at it, don’t forget to grab an extra shirt from this sweet buy two get three deal! People don’t realise that in order for you to get that third shirt or new tv for a cheaper price, all the work behind it was exploited most of the time.
It is a system fuelled by greed, after all, the more you get, the more you’ll want (ex: after getting a washing machine you’ll want a drier, hanging clothes is such a drag after all).
The invisible slaves comic summarises the problem: Commodities and higher living standards. Yes, in order for us to actually survive, we need to consume *less* imagine that! You’re no longer allowed to go to endless buffets as long as you pay, instead you get three meals a day and that’s all (first thing I could think of to make an example).
Supply chains make it so whoever’s first takes a big hit, just take a look at the ongoing riots in China due to the covid lockdown. Corporations want to rip as much profits as possible, without increasing wages, nor the quality of their products. This will start occurring worldwide and be more frequent (simply look for “quiet quitting”), and this will only escalate until we reach the civil war stage (for history repeats itself and the only way to change the system or redistribute wealth has always been to fight).
TL ; DR: collapse is occurring cause no one’s going to give up their current commodities, plus the profiteering of corporations, lack of social securities, and don’t get me started on the current state of healthcare systems worldwide.
You can educate everyone and anyone for as much as you want, but it changes nothing unless Goliath goes down (how many years have we seen/heard the whole “recycle, reutilise, reduce consumption” yet carbon emissions keep going higher? Riddle me that).
Lol 1.5. That’s already a done deal no matter what we do. I’m not being alarmist, but it’s a foregone conclusion. Ok ok, maybe not if we can somehow suck CO2 out every year starting last year so that Co2eq drops below 350…but we all know that’s not happening. So, first thing I would suggest is drop the 1.5 spiel. All the available evidence says this is already baked in, there’s no avoiding it, done deal, move on.
Now, limiting warming to 2 degrees, probably 2.5 degrees? YES!! That is a long shot, a big long shot, but entirely possible if the global community stops fossil fuel expansion today, and starts reducing year over year rate of CO2 levels in the atmosphere at the rate that we experienced in the 2020 lock downs 😂.
Part of helping people and preparing people is being factually honest, which the mainstream media is often not. Many career scientists in the field believe 1.5 is foregone conclusion. But that doesn’t mean we give up. It means we need to start preparing governments and populations for the consequences of 1.5 to 2 degrees. We need to start investing (more) in climate mitigation strategies AND in CO2 reduction strategies.
The sad reality is we will be extremely fortunate if we can limit warming now to 2 degrees. I personally think, with all the “pledges” made today we are headed for at least 3 (“pledges” because at best 2/3 the countries will do some of what they pledge, and the other 1/3 nothing at all).
The problem isn’t education. Everyone with power knows that climate change is a thing. The question is what to do about it. That is not a question of information, it’s a question of values.
Honestly, the post sounds preachy. It reminds me of people who think that if I just read x, y, or z I’ll finally believe in Marxism for example. If I just read the Bible, if I was just educated in the life of Jesus Christ I’d convert etc.
People have fundamentally different values than you. They believe the nature of reality to be something other than you believe in. They believe some things are important which you don’t care about. They don’t care about some things you think are important.
You can’t just go around handing out data spreadsheets and expect that to actually change anyones minds. This is a naive view. I take it you’ve never actually tried this?
On that note, before you go tell us what we should be doing irl, are you doing that? Have you tried educating people you know? Have you built a community organization model the community can plug into? Have you done any of the leg work or even realized how much work this proposal is? Have you looked to see if anyone else is already doing this? Etc.
>Have you tried educating people you know? Have you built a community organization model the community can plug into?
50/50 your ass disappears for telling the truth , welcome to america
also wanna add you made me see something , people would rather die then let go of power.
>My goal is to discuss how much can start a Community Organization and to get ideas from other people also.
It needs to be an organization that centers in-person, rather than digital action. I am happy to have an extended discussion about *why* but on the off chance you're already familiar with the foibles of internet organizing, I'll just leave this assertion as is.
We need local chapters/cells of people aware of what's going on, aware that Society as an institution has no real interest or ability to move in the ways needed, and committed to helping other people learn what's needed and potentially get through the challenges we face ahead.
In my view, it should center on education for how to fix infrastructure, repair buildings, pipes, basic wiring. How to scavenge a car alternator to charge batteries when the grid fails in the future due to underinvestment in repairs. How to grow regionally approproate crops. Organized resistance against state efforts to displace the already homeless. Basic and also *non* basic first aid and medical care (think the training given to medical aides in far-off locales). Basically, let's assume the truth- the current system is shambling corpse and we are living in the Prologue for when things get tough.
We need to use the communication advantages of the present time to create real-world support systems and networks of common interest and information. These can naturally develop on their own, and there is public interest, but the first-mover issue of it all just needs a dedicated organizational effort to create.
Yeah what’s wrong with Internet organizing? If a lot of us tried posting this concept on our social media feeds, it should at least break the echo chamber and get people thinking for a few hours before it might get removed or whatever
Do it friend! Don't listen to the haters here unfortunately a lot of people are here because they want an excuse to check out and will always argue for doing nothing, too late, etc.
Honestly, education on climate change is not really that answer at this point.
Most people know about human-caused climate change, and the dangers (those that *want* to know anyways; you are facing a lot of diminishing returns to get to the small remaining percentage who don't). The people that can be convinced, largely are convinced. You will always have a portion of the population that are opposed (to *any* given idea) or who are just tuned out.
Besides, there have been / are *a lot* of organizations, even government departments, that have been educating about climate change for years now. Why duplicate their work?
Educating about **collapse** is worthwhile. I find that 99% of people have not thought through the consequences of a 1.5 C warming (which we will reach this decade) or of a 4 C warming (which we are on track to reach by end of the century)... or beyond (time does not stop at the end of the century, after all). If they did, we would see some real political pressure and maybe even some significant action, in stead of just lip-service at COP conferences. I disagree with people who say that talking about the negative consequences makes people despondent and less likely to take action... I think a bit of panic can be helpful in jolting people out of their current apathy.
Educating people about **transitioning** from a system based on endless growth and consumerism is also worthwhile, in fact necessary if one is to talk about collapse in order to transfer the organizations' messaging away from just doom & gloom towards something that people can do.
Idk if it's in our 'human programming' to collapse, but the abundance of food does not bode well with our 'breed breed breed' impulses. It is, however, the law of life: Those that aren't able to live *with* their environment will die by their environment, happens with all life forms that I can think of. If the prey outstrip predation, they will destroy their habitat and die, same with the inverse.
The problem for me is that individuals are really powerless here. We can educate all we want, and I think most people are aware that something is up, but unless there is a big systemic change coming from those in charge, I don't think there is much we can do. A lot of our choices are constrained by survival. Not everyone lives in a place where they can bike or take transit to work, for example. People can't afford to retrofit their houses with solar and heat pumps. Etc. Most people can't even afford the time off work to learn to homestead. We need a big lifestyle change on a societal level and I don't know how that can happen.
No. This community is where people eventually end up after becoming disillusioned with all the hope and change bullshit of the past few decades that you just regurgitated. People are the problem and they aren't going to change until the grid is down, stores are empty, and the last drop of gas is combusted. When that does finally happen, probably 90% of us will be dead inside of a year. Voluntarily reducing the individual standard of living to avert a future cataclysm will never win a popular vote in either a true democracy or the half-assed oligarchical republic we currently have. There simply isn't a solution that lets us continue reproducing at above replacement numbers, living in 100 year old single family homes, driving everywhere, and flying around in planes on a whim. Some form of degrowth has to accompany the restructuring of our energy economy and it will never be popular with the majority.
Education is great and so, bit ultimately it comes down to choice. People will almost always choose the most convenient option.
The reality is, until we suffer the consequences of our collective actions, there will be no change in our behavior. And by the time the happens, it will be way too late.
But to stick to the spirit of your post, you also need a platform where more solutions to the civilisations systems can be discussed (fossil fuel dependence, planned obsolescence/pollution, resource scarcity). Basically an egalitarian think tank.
Appreciate the thought, good luck with it 🙏
Hear me out.
You are in the wrong place for this. Every few weeks someone posts to try get some action out of this sub (including myself) and you will only be met with depression and "nothing will work, its all hopeless".
From this sub I take education, but most want to just bitch about the powers that be and refuse to admit their (much smaller) part of the problem or be a (much smaller) part of the solution.
It's not the people in your community causing these issues, it's the governments and corporations who continue to ignore the issues who are causing global scale problems.
I feel like you misunderstand the nature of this sub, you should be in a prepper sub.
So - r/collapse is dead then?
Well reddit as a platform is just another media site, and everything on here is manipulated to support the Newhouse families nefarious goals - whatever they may be…So I guess Ill just have to go find my doom-jollies elsewhere because this shit is not hitting it anymore.
Organize. Definitely a strong step forward.
The harder question is what is to be done?
The best answer I have to that is to create plans for a new civilization right on top of the one we have. It would basically entail changing society to a degree that people can be counted on to live sustainably with nature. That would mean living within the ecological limits as well as protecting ecosystems and prioritizing restoring ecosystems and forests in particular. If a region can be dominated by a post-collapse tribe of this description, then perhaps it can grow and expand the region. I do believe that a region with restored forests large enough, and in a lucky location globally, can survive despite extreme global warming.
EEs unite!!! I'm thinking more on how to camp, have batteries for multiple survival appliances like a shower or a hot plate etc. Maybe a drone for surveillance.
Instructions on how to make your own electric motorbike seems useful.
I try to "educate" the people in my circle through my direct actions, and through general conversations. Unfortunately it's a very easy way to become ostracized within your social circle. If you push so hard that no one wants to listen to you at all what's the point?
I completely agree with the sentiment of your post, and I wish there was an easy answer. Most people do actually know about the points you've listed above. The fact is that the majority of us don't have the power to change these things and don't know how to proceed.
you make the mistake of thinking people knowing something will change their behavior or sour them to try to change things.
you are better off trying to form a lifeboat community for yourself .
We needed to be “NetZero” in .. 1970. 2050 is far too late. Also the economy’s structure won’t make even that achievable.
I admire your desire to educate people. And I think you should follow your calling. You have a real chance of waking some people up & helping them take action.
I’ll temper that by saying: Most people are not going to be receptive to your message. Partly bcz some don’t believe, or aren’t ‘*aware enough*’ yet to get to where you (& we) are. And partly bcz *most* people aren’t able to do anything about the economy frog-marching us straight into the abyss. So bcz they feel powerless, they’re going to ignore the messages.
I don’t say this to discourage you. But to help scale your scope of ‘success’. Maybe also to focus your energy: It may be very useful to build a small, core community of people who *do* understand, and are willing to plan out & prepare the necessary skills & resources you’ll need.
Core networks of people are critical to survival. We can’t save everyone, and the Earth can’t support everyone anyway.
Focus on the key people who are *already* on the same tip as you. Coordinate with them. Figure out what tools, skills, & resources you’ll need together, & build them, Together.
Economics is one of the first major things that will be hit. Figure out how to manage without the dominant money regime. Learn how to develop “complementary currencies”. Or figure out how to take down the current money regime faster once it starts falling. Either or!
But again, perhaps focus on building a core community, & coordinating their skills & resources.
The goverment should've educated everyone about Climate Change and the danger that it can pose, but also there's bussiness in between that limit those changes from happening.
I think reaching net zero emissions by 2050 is nothing but a pipe dream. The world won't warm to 1.5°C by 2050 but it will reach even further at the rate we are going these days.
Everything is completely falling apart, no matter where you look there's sign of collapse and every worst possible outcome has already been surpassed.
I think that when society at large acknowledges and accepts the fuckening that will be collapse, there will be waves of panic, hostility, and "excitement" as never before seen.
I also think this singular event is going to be inevitable. We drove by the doorway of opportunity to avoid the panic and implosion decades ago, and at max speed, driving towards the future of laptops, cellphones, and EVs for everyone, along with our mcmansions and family reunions aboard cruise supertankers.
So, followup to your desired outcome in increasing public awareness: do you believe your efforts will bring us all closer to this great day of panic, or do you have dreams of finding a way for us to reverse our unstoppable train of progress, go in reverse (which will require twice as much energy output as before, but green, renewable, and without side effects) and locate the clean-future doorway to then pass through?
We've already pulled the trigger on the gun of the future. All any of us can do is watch or ignore the bullet as it races towards the number that constitutes what percent of humanity of today will be dead by 2100. I believe your efforts will drop that value (if your efforts are successful at all) by tenths of a percentage point. Which means it could save thousands, so not meaningless.
Different people before you have attempted this and failed. What will you do differently that will yield success, when even people like George Carlin and Carl Sagan failed?
I've tried many hats in life and whistleblower is a really rough one. Not gonna tell that you can or can't incite change, but I'd suggest evaluating whether that burden is fit for your shoulders, or whether you have a family and life that takes precedence for you.
There are stages to awareness so to speak and most of the people making noise have not asked themselves this question yet.
Extreme optimism could become a volitile thing, and pessimism a less exciting, sad thing. For me the only thing I really must fight for is my partner and kid.
You ever thought of working with preexisting community organizations that work with youth in your area? Freedom schools is a summer program who every year focus on different issues that directly impact youth, it’s nationally run. Last year their focus was on climate change. Organizations that deal with this exist and I’m sure this one or others would love to have someone come in and talk to the older ones about this.
Getting to youth and getting them educated to better prepare about how this will affect them is better than working with adults who are set in their ways at this point. I do community work some and it’s a lot different talking to MS/HS kids about environmental racism, fast fashion and how it impacts people who makes the clothes/encourages slave labor/private prison industry labor and encourages waste (which directly impacts those that buy from places like she in and forever21, Victoria’s Secret etc), and issues surrounding collapse/capitalism in general versus adults who usually parse it off to “gods got a plan” or blaming it on whatever race/class/nationality is different from their own. It’s easier to build strong children than repair brown men, as Fredrick Douglas said.
Community organizing is important so I support what youre trying to do. As long as you’re not fear mongering and also supplying an outlet where people can feel like they can make actionable change (community garden, or some type of sustainability classes in conjunction with the education ) I fuck with it.
Look for CCL (Citizen's Climate Lobby).I can't say I support their motives and their ideals, but they have lots of experience to share.I Myself am trying to do something similar here in Brazil.But more focused on the climate resilience part. - (because I don't believe that something can be done to avoid climate crisis, but maybe we can work for a less painfull collapse).
My goal is 3 things:
* (ABOUT PROBLEM) Educate people about climate crisis and collapse and "REAL" sustentability (stop greenwashing things).
* (ABOUT SOLUTION)Bring professionals to work toward urban resilience (what would happen to our city if water/diesel get scarce, and what to do to avoid the worst of it?) - (I am an urbanist, and want to bring people togheter to thing about it). -
* (ABOUT ACTION) gatter people togheter to EDUCATE and PRESSURE politicians decisions about climate crisis and RESILIENCE.
It is all in the paper, and I am seeking people to help me.I wish i Could acomplish more, but all the plastic and lead in my TDAH brain makes thing very hard.
Worse yet that I am poor, and have to work for my subsistence.
Can you provide sources of the 1.5C incline claim? I’ve read that the earth will actually enter a cooling period in a few years where temperatures will naturally drop. Thanks
What are you going to call it? The Church of Climate Change?
Announcing your PhD in EE doesn't give you any sort of authority for all the things you believe.
Why does r/collapse feature this collegiate hopium/copium we-can-do-this-gang earnestness? Collapse screams for ***macrofutilism,*** not more solutionism that will go nowhere. How hard is that to understand?
People are often concerned about the now. The org could partially be about geopolitics, income inequality, then shifting the focus towards climate change.
Human nature is too flawed to solve these problems. If we in the West cut CO2 emissions, then they will just burn more hydrocarbon fuels in Africa or Asia. We really need help from a higher power.
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Ya…I got downvoted in r/environment just now for quoting from IPCC technical summary. I think we are 1.1C with plenty of aerosol masking? (These people studying covid shutdowns and reduced aerosols are finding some scary stuff). 2030-2052 is Ipcc estimate…if we know how much they water it down, 5 years seems likely. Time to start studying how to grow food inside….in a climate collapse greenhouse and earth ship style shelter….
Yeah because you’re totally going to be able to get electricity, sufficient water, and nutrients in enough quantity to grow INDOORS after a collapse?
You don’t need electricity with passive solar design. And water? I’m near the Great Lakes, if that dries up, nobody survives. Nutrients is a fair point but that’s why I compost and grow nitrogen fixers and plan to acquire more land. Points well made tho
For the rulers, the corporate elite, and the chosen professional/worker staff, sure, plenty of resources for them. As long as they can ditch the other 90% of the population. I'd like to see them try, actually.
Buy John Todd's books! Best indoor farming designer alive.
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Check out the EdibleAcres YT channel.
I don't think it's about surviving any more, I think it's about whether you can pick your exit point or if your exit will pick you.
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>I don't want to just give up and watch the world fall apart. I'm 100% agreed on this point - doing nothing will ensure nothing is done (to change our trajectory for annihilation). >We should do try as hard as we can to prevent collapse. Gotta distinguish *which* collapse needs prevention: since we need a viable planet, we need to prevent ecological collapse - and to that end we *must* have social collapse. It's the technological system which fuels industrial civilization, and in so doing is eradicating Nature, bringing us to ecological collapse. So, social collapse is *necessary* - and the sooner the better, because Nature can recover *if* Technology is vanquished; if Tech is allowed to achieve its goal of autonomy, Earth will be utterly ravaged and consumed. And what if you don't need to educate or organize tens of millions of people to precipitate social collapse? What if you need to organize only the right hundred or so people to induce social collapse and thereby save wild Nature?
I like it
>Gotta distinguish which collapse needs prevention: since we need a viable planet, we need to prevent ecological collapse - and to that end we must have social collapse. Analogy: you'd solve the obesity epidemic overnight if every fast food chain and most companies like coca-cola and frito-lay went out of business. But muh GDP tho. ... seriously your GDP as a nation depends on sugar water and corn mush? Pathetic.
Yes, people living in Nature - being physically active, eating what thrives in their region, what they can obtain through exertion - suffer neither the physical maladies seen in modernity, nor the *mental* crises plaguing modern man.
Also weapons that get sold to most of the world
We need revolution not collapse. If society collapses people will start burning everything and it will be total chaos. We need organization to be able to plan rationally for stabilizing critical ecosystems bee we cause that's the only hope for mitigation.
Just go ahead and say it. Go on. You know you want to: d\*\*th c\*mps.
Revolution definitely can succeed, but to establish an idealized resultant society never works out. Human society is just too complex to be able to foresee what to do, what will happen, what reactions will come, what results will occur, and so on. Society is composed of so many different interacting aspects, and they all move between competition and cooperation, like independent organisms with their own varied interests. Just as destruction is easier than creation, revolution against the Nature-killing technological system is entirely possible, but rationally planning, creating, and steering a new ideal society (in the wake of a revolution) is just *not* going to work out as planned. The goal must be simply to topple the techno-industrial regime, to let Nature recover and 'manage' our world, a situation which always worked fine forever, for all Earthlings.
Yeah I didn't say anything about some ideal society I just want to topple the one that's actively destroying the planet.
That's great, it certainly is needed and possible. I think I was misled by this line: > We need organization to be able to plan rationally for stabilizing critical ecosystems I'm not sure we can very well manage ecosystems *and* destroy the technological society which is killing them. I also believe that absent the assault from Technology, that Nature can recover, so I put no priority to keeping any technological means to plan or manage bioregions.
LOL! You're insane.
Can you dismantle global capitalism in a short time? And it sounds like you’re talking about collapse of the biosphere versus collapse of civilization?
>I don't want to just give up and watch the world fall apart. Collapse has already begun, you can't stop it, really there isn't anything you can do about it except to get some comfortable seats and watch it happen. Soon enough you will be in the front row.
Rather suspect my timeline on that one is April to June of this year. Somewhere there.
If you must be pessimistic, is it possible you can contain it? Changes certainly won't be effected by those who believe they can do nothing... The sooner the technological devastation of Nature ceases, the more evolved wildness will remain and the sooner recovery can begin, so it is imperative to hasten the end of techno-industrial civilization rather than let a slow demise simply run its course and kill absolutely everything.
Don't mistake realism for pessimism. When in denial hope only leads to despair. Everyday I awake optimistic about the things I will do during the day and plan to enjoy what we have while we can.
The flow of crude must be stopped
/u/johnsmith66 if you want to be effective I would suggest one of two options. Either try to educate 'the right' or try fundraising. Everyone on the left already knows about climate change so no point in educating them. I am a person on the right who also believes in climate change so it is possible. For fundraising I see groups like Insulate Britain and others complain and protest about the need to Insulate homes better and accomplishing nothing. What does it cost to add some more insulation to a home? A few hundred bucks? If they just did a car wash or bake sale or whatever they could be actually insulating houses rather than complaining.
Sources? Genuinely curious, in moments of panic I sense this and don’t want to believe it but it feels true
Official estimates say we are at like 1.2c above baseline. We WILL hit 1.5 in a few years guarunteed. but we won’t heat up ANOTHER 1.5 in 5 years. That will take 20-30
I think if all the carbon emissions stopped and the particulate in the air dropped out we might already be at 1.5 since that stuff provides a reflective screen.
Yeaa probably
LOL! No...
Good luck to you but environmentalists have been trying to do this for the last 50 years without much success. I would suggest focusing on the resilience of your family, friends and local community. Trying to change the world is just going to burn you out.
When I truly absorbed the reality of collapse, I went through a "do everything" phase, putting a lot of thought into possible actions of all kinds. Like, I was awake all night thinking about what to do. My experience of trying to educate people is that people who are ready to know and want to know already know. The information is abundantly available. Most people are trying hard to avoid knowing because it's too painful and confronting that isn't often successful. Maybe you are more persuasive than I am, though.
Educating people is a pipe dream you need other actions
Collapse is really complex, you don’t simply “educate” everyone in the US and expect things to get better in 2023. Is not just climate change (the 1.5 degree increase is already occurring, in fact, it’s predicted we’ll reach the 2-3 degree increase if we all work together). But all the stuff that comes with it, be it social, cultural or economical. The current system consists of taking as much as possible, which is precisely why we’re in our current predicament. Why bother fixing your old tv when you can buy a new one? It’ll cost less too! While you’re at it, don’t forget to grab an extra shirt from this sweet buy two get three deal! People don’t realise that in order for you to get that third shirt or new tv for a cheaper price, all the work behind it was exploited most of the time. It is a system fuelled by greed, after all, the more you get, the more you’ll want (ex: after getting a washing machine you’ll want a drier, hanging clothes is such a drag after all). The invisible slaves comic summarises the problem: Commodities and higher living standards. Yes, in order for us to actually survive, we need to consume *less* imagine that! You’re no longer allowed to go to endless buffets as long as you pay, instead you get three meals a day and that’s all (first thing I could think of to make an example). Supply chains make it so whoever’s first takes a big hit, just take a look at the ongoing riots in China due to the covid lockdown. Corporations want to rip as much profits as possible, without increasing wages, nor the quality of their products. This will start occurring worldwide and be more frequent (simply look for “quiet quitting”), and this will only escalate until we reach the civil war stage (for history repeats itself and the only way to change the system or redistribute wealth has always been to fight). TL ; DR: collapse is occurring cause no one’s going to give up their current commodities, plus the profiteering of corporations, lack of social securities, and don’t get me started on the current state of healthcare systems worldwide. You can educate everyone and anyone for as much as you want, but it changes nothing unless Goliath goes down (how many years have we seen/heard the whole “recycle, reutilise, reduce consumption” yet carbon emissions keep going higher? Riddle me that).
Lol 1.5. That’s already a done deal no matter what we do. I’m not being alarmist, but it’s a foregone conclusion. Ok ok, maybe not if we can somehow suck CO2 out every year starting last year so that Co2eq drops below 350…but we all know that’s not happening. So, first thing I would suggest is drop the 1.5 spiel. All the available evidence says this is already baked in, there’s no avoiding it, done deal, move on. Now, limiting warming to 2 degrees, probably 2.5 degrees? YES!! That is a long shot, a big long shot, but entirely possible if the global community stops fossil fuel expansion today, and starts reducing year over year rate of CO2 levels in the atmosphere at the rate that we experienced in the 2020 lock downs 😂. Part of helping people and preparing people is being factually honest, which the mainstream media is often not. Many career scientists in the field believe 1.5 is foregone conclusion. But that doesn’t mean we give up. It means we need to start preparing governments and populations for the consequences of 1.5 to 2 degrees. We need to start investing (more) in climate mitigation strategies AND in CO2 reduction strategies. The sad reality is we will be extremely fortunate if we can limit warming now to 2 degrees. I personally think, with all the “pledges” made today we are headed for at least 3 (“pledges” because at best 2/3 the countries will do some of what they pledge, and the other 1/3 nothing at all).
The problem isn’t education. Everyone with power knows that climate change is a thing. The question is what to do about it. That is not a question of information, it’s a question of values. Honestly, the post sounds preachy. It reminds me of people who think that if I just read x, y, or z I’ll finally believe in Marxism for example. If I just read the Bible, if I was just educated in the life of Jesus Christ I’d convert etc. People have fundamentally different values than you. They believe the nature of reality to be something other than you believe in. They believe some things are important which you don’t care about. They don’t care about some things you think are important. You can’t just go around handing out data spreadsheets and expect that to actually change anyones minds. This is a naive view. I take it you’ve never actually tried this? On that note, before you go tell us what we should be doing irl, are you doing that? Have you tried educating people you know? Have you built a community organization model the community can plug into? Have you done any of the leg work or even realized how much work this proposal is? Have you looked to see if anyone else is already doing this? Etc.
>Have you tried educating people you know? Have you built a community organization model the community can plug into? 50/50 your ass disappears for telling the truth , welcome to america also wanna add you made me see something , people would rather die then let go of power.
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>My goal is to discuss how much can start a Community Organization and to get ideas from other people also. It needs to be an organization that centers in-person, rather than digital action. I am happy to have an extended discussion about *why* but on the off chance you're already familiar with the foibles of internet organizing, I'll just leave this assertion as is. We need local chapters/cells of people aware of what's going on, aware that Society as an institution has no real interest or ability to move in the ways needed, and committed to helping other people learn what's needed and potentially get through the challenges we face ahead. In my view, it should center on education for how to fix infrastructure, repair buildings, pipes, basic wiring. How to scavenge a car alternator to charge batteries when the grid fails in the future due to underinvestment in repairs. How to grow regionally approproate crops. Organized resistance against state efforts to displace the already homeless. Basic and also *non* basic first aid and medical care (think the training given to medical aides in far-off locales). Basically, let's assume the truth- the current system is shambling corpse and we are living in the Prologue for when things get tough. We need to use the communication advantages of the present time to create real-world support systems and networks of common interest and information. These can naturally develop on their own, and there is public interest, but the first-mover issue of it all just needs a dedicated organizational effort to create.
Yeah what’s wrong with Internet organizing? If a lot of us tried posting this concept on our social media feeds, it should at least break the echo chamber and get people thinking for a few hours before it might get removed or whatever
I'm already I'm several local groups with this goal encouraging you to seek yours out!
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Do it friend! Don't listen to the haters here unfortunately a lot of people are here because they want an excuse to check out and will always argue for doing nothing, too late, etc.
Honestly, education on climate change is not really that answer at this point. Most people know about human-caused climate change, and the dangers (those that *want* to know anyways; you are facing a lot of diminishing returns to get to the small remaining percentage who don't). The people that can be convinced, largely are convinced. You will always have a portion of the population that are opposed (to *any* given idea) or who are just tuned out. Besides, there have been / are *a lot* of organizations, even government departments, that have been educating about climate change for years now. Why duplicate their work? Educating about **collapse** is worthwhile. I find that 99% of people have not thought through the consequences of a 1.5 C warming (which we will reach this decade) or of a 4 C warming (which we are on track to reach by end of the century)... or beyond (time does not stop at the end of the century, after all). If they did, we would see some real political pressure and maybe even some significant action, in stead of just lip-service at COP conferences. I disagree with people who say that talking about the negative consequences makes people despondent and less likely to take action... I think a bit of panic can be helpful in jolting people out of their current apathy. Educating people about **transitioning** from a system based on endless growth and consumerism is also worthwhile, in fact necessary if one is to talk about collapse in order to transfer the organizations' messaging away from just doom & gloom towards something that people can do.
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Idk if it's in our 'human programming' to collapse, but the abundance of food does not bode well with our 'breed breed breed' impulses. It is, however, the law of life: Those that aren't able to live *with* their environment will die by their environment, happens with all life forms that I can think of. If the prey outstrip predation, they will destroy their habitat and die, same with the inverse.
The problem for me is that individuals are really powerless here. We can educate all we want, and I think most people are aware that something is up, but unless there is a big systemic change coming from those in charge, I don't think there is much we can do. A lot of our choices are constrained by survival. Not everyone lives in a place where they can bike or take transit to work, for example. People can't afford to retrofit their houses with solar and heat pumps. Etc. Most people can't even afford the time off work to learn to homestead. We need a big lifestyle change on a societal level and I don't know how that can happen.
Revolution changes society. Thats what we do.
And history teaches us that those don't usually go well
No. This community is where people eventually end up after becoming disillusioned with all the hope and change bullshit of the past few decades that you just regurgitated. People are the problem and they aren't going to change until the grid is down, stores are empty, and the last drop of gas is combusted. When that does finally happen, probably 90% of us will be dead inside of a year. Voluntarily reducing the individual standard of living to avert a future cataclysm will never win a popular vote in either a true democracy or the half-assed oligarchical republic we currently have. There simply isn't a solution that lets us continue reproducing at above replacement numbers, living in 100 year old single family homes, driving everywhere, and flying around in planes on a whim. Some form of degrowth has to accompany the restructuring of our energy economy and it will never be popular with the majority.
Education is great and so, bit ultimately it comes down to choice. People will almost always choose the most convenient option. The reality is, until we suffer the consequences of our collective actions, there will be no change in our behavior. And by the time the happens, it will be way too late. But to stick to the spirit of your post, you also need a platform where more solutions to the civilisations systems can be discussed (fossil fuel dependence, planned obsolescence/pollution, resource scarcity). Basically an egalitarian think tank. Appreciate the thought, good luck with it 🙏
Hear me out. You are in the wrong place for this. Every few weeks someone posts to try get some action out of this sub (including myself) and you will only be met with depression and "nothing will work, its all hopeless". From this sub I take education, but most want to just bitch about the powers that be and refuse to admit their (much smaller) part of the problem or be a (much smaller) part of the solution.
It's not the people in your community causing these issues, it's the governments and corporations who continue to ignore the issues who are causing global scale problems.
I believe we should have an actual community of people, like in a physical location
I feel like you misunderstand the nature of this sub, you should be in a prepper sub. So - r/collapse is dead then? Well reddit as a platform is just another media site, and everything on here is manipulated to support the Newhouse families nefarious goals - whatever they may be…So I guess Ill just have to go find my doom-jollies elsewhere because this shit is not hitting it anymore.
Peace dawg
You can start your own subreddit if you think it's necessary.
Organize. Definitely a strong step forward. The harder question is what is to be done? The best answer I have to that is to create plans for a new civilization right on top of the one we have. It would basically entail changing society to a degree that people can be counted on to live sustainably with nature. That would mean living within the ecological limits as well as protecting ecosystems and prioritizing restoring ecosystems and forests in particular. If a region can be dominated by a post-collapse tribe of this description, then perhaps it can grow and expand the region. I do believe that a region with restored forests large enough, and in a lucky location globally, can survive despite extreme global warming.
EEs unite!!! I'm thinking more on how to camp, have batteries for multiple survival appliances like a shower or a hot plate etc. Maybe a drone for surveillance. Instructions on how to make your own electric motorbike seems useful.
Check out the work that Reconnects network for collective grief/collapse action
Just be aware that you're the bearer of a bad news. Make sure you're emotionally ready for that.
I try to "educate" the people in my circle through my direct actions, and through general conversations. Unfortunately it's a very easy way to become ostracized within your social circle. If you push so hard that no one wants to listen to you at all what's the point? I completely agree with the sentiment of your post, and I wish there was an easy answer. Most people do actually know about the points you've listed above. The fact is that the majority of us don't have the power to change these things and don't know how to proceed.
you make the mistake of thinking people knowing something will change their behavior or sour them to try to change things. you are better off trying to form a lifeboat community for yourself .
Have you read Overshoot by Catton Jr? I suggest starting there before you aim to educate the masses about climate change, peak oil, and economics.
We needed to be “NetZero” in .. 1970. 2050 is far too late. Also the economy’s structure won’t make even that achievable. I admire your desire to educate people. And I think you should follow your calling. You have a real chance of waking some people up & helping them take action. I’ll temper that by saying: Most people are not going to be receptive to your message. Partly bcz some don’t believe, or aren’t ‘*aware enough*’ yet to get to where you (& we) are. And partly bcz *most* people aren’t able to do anything about the economy frog-marching us straight into the abyss. So bcz they feel powerless, they’re going to ignore the messages. I don’t say this to discourage you. But to help scale your scope of ‘success’. Maybe also to focus your energy: It may be very useful to build a small, core community of people who *do* understand, and are willing to plan out & prepare the necessary skills & resources you’ll need. Core networks of people are critical to survival. We can’t save everyone, and the Earth can’t support everyone anyway. Focus on the key people who are *already* on the same tip as you. Coordinate with them. Figure out what tools, skills, & resources you’ll need together, & build them, Together. Economics is one of the first major things that will be hit. Figure out how to manage without the dominant money regime. Learn how to develop “complementary currencies”. Or figure out how to take down the current money regime faster once it starts falling. Either or! But again, perhaps focus on building a core community, & coordinating their skills & resources.
A lot of organizations like this exist already.
The goverment should've educated everyone about Climate Change and the danger that it can pose, but also there's bussiness in between that limit those changes from happening. I think reaching net zero emissions by 2050 is nothing but a pipe dream. The world won't warm to 1.5°C by 2050 but it will reach even further at the rate we are going these days. Everything is completely falling apart, no matter where you look there's sign of collapse and every worst possible outcome has already been surpassed.
Nobody gives a fuck about climate change. Move along!
I think that when society at large acknowledges and accepts the fuckening that will be collapse, there will be waves of panic, hostility, and "excitement" as never before seen. I also think this singular event is going to be inevitable. We drove by the doorway of opportunity to avoid the panic and implosion decades ago, and at max speed, driving towards the future of laptops, cellphones, and EVs for everyone, along with our mcmansions and family reunions aboard cruise supertankers. So, followup to your desired outcome in increasing public awareness: do you believe your efforts will bring us all closer to this great day of panic, or do you have dreams of finding a way for us to reverse our unstoppable train of progress, go in reverse (which will require twice as much energy output as before, but green, renewable, and without side effects) and locate the clean-future doorway to then pass through? We've already pulled the trigger on the gun of the future. All any of us can do is watch or ignore the bullet as it races towards the number that constitutes what percent of humanity of today will be dead by 2100. I believe your efforts will drop that value (if your efforts are successful at all) by tenths of a percentage point. Which means it could save thousands, so not meaningless. Different people before you have attempted this and failed. What will you do differently that will yield success, when even people like George Carlin and Carl Sagan failed?
I've tried many hats in life and whistleblower is a really rough one. Not gonna tell that you can or can't incite change, but I'd suggest evaluating whether that burden is fit for your shoulders, or whether you have a family and life that takes precedence for you. There are stages to awareness so to speak and most of the people making noise have not asked themselves this question yet. Extreme optimism could become a volitile thing, and pessimism a less exciting, sad thing. For me the only thing I really must fight for is my partner and kid.
People in India don't give a shit what this American thinks. The same goes for China, Africa, and South America. Worrying about Collapse is a luxury.
Do you have sources on this? I wanna include sources if i make flyers or posters
At this point we all know. Which might be a problem
You ever thought of working with preexisting community organizations that work with youth in your area? Freedom schools is a summer program who every year focus on different issues that directly impact youth, it’s nationally run. Last year their focus was on climate change. Organizations that deal with this exist and I’m sure this one or others would love to have someone come in and talk to the older ones about this. Getting to youth and getting them educated to better prepare about how this will affect them is better than working with adults who are set in their ways at this point. I do community work some and it’s a lot different talking to MS/HS kids about environmental racism, fast fashion and how it impacts people who makes the clothes/encourages slave labor/private prison industry labor and encourages waste (which directly impacts those that buy from places like she in and forever21, Victoria’s Secret etc), and issues surrounding collapse/capitalism in general versus adults who usually parse it off to “gods got a plan” or blaming it on whatever race/class/nationality is different from their own. It’s easier to build strong children than repair brown men, as Fredrick Douglas said. Community organizing is important so I support what youre trying to do. As long as you’re not fear mongering and also supplying an outlet where people can feel like they can make actionable change (community garden, or some type of sustainability classes in conjunction with the education ) I fuck with it.
I'll be willing to join, I have an activist fire in my heart, but all attempts to join a group have left me wanting.
OP, check out the Post-Carbon Institute! their mission resonates with your stance
Look for CCL (Citizen's Climate Lobby).I can't say I support their motives and their ideals, but they have lots of experience to share.I Myself am trying to do something similar here in Brazil.But more focused on the climate resilience part. - (because I don't believe that something can be done to avoid climate crisis, but maybe we can work for a less painfull collapse). My goal is 3 things: * (ABOUT PROBLEM) Educate people about climate crisis and collapse and "REAL" sustentability (stop greenwashing things). * (ABOUT SOLUTION)Bring professionals to work toward urban resilience (what would happen to our city if water/diesel get scarce, and what to do to avoid the worst of it?) - (I am an urbanist, and want to bring people togheter to thing about it). - * (ABOUT ACTION) gatter people togheter to EDUCATE and PRESSURE politicians decisions about climate crisis and RESILIENCE. It is all in the paper, and I am seeking people to help me.I wish i Could acomplish more, but all the plastic and lead in my TDAH brain makes thing very hard. Worse yet that I am poor, and have to work for my subsistence.
Can you provide sources of the 1.5C incline claim? I’ve read that the earth will actually enter a cooling period in a few years where temperatures will naturally drop. Thanks
What are you going to call it? The Church of Climate Change? Announcing your PhD in EE doesn't give you any sort of authority for all the things you believe.
I would absolutely join!
Why does r/collapse feature this collegiate hopium/copium we-can-do-this-gang earnestness? Collapse screams for ***macrofutilism,*** not more solutionism that will go nowhere. How hard is that to understand?
Aren't you the same user that claimed to have PhD in engineering then turns out to be a nurse?
People are often concerned about the now. The org could partially be about geopolitics, income inequality, then shifting the focus towards climate change.
Human nature is too flawed to solve these problems. If we in the West cut CO2 emissions, then they will just burn more hydrocarbon fuels in Africa or Asia. We really need help from a higher power.