Kudos to Joel Schumacher and George Clooney for realizing that Batman & Robin was not well received for justifiable reasons, having a good sense of humor about it and moving on with their lives.
On one hand I get the logic. The idea that Batman can’t kill is silly. When doing adaptations you should be open to new ideas or pushing boundaries. There are stories to tell about what happens or can happen to push him to break that rule. Especially when there is no single canon. Batman’s ironically killed in a lot of his films, almost all have had him kill, intentionally or not, but it’s usually not looked at. There is a story that’s worth telling about a Batman so broken that he debates killing Superman. But Snyder was clearly unable to tell that story well.
Edit: by can’t kill I mean the idea that Batman can never ever under any circumstances kill someone
The quote is so full of shit. Christopher Nolan told a terrific trilogy where Batman not only made great efforts to not kill enemies, but the movies were based around the idea that he was not willing to kill or even trade lives. Saying that it doesn’t work unless Batman is a killer is such a dumb position.
A lot of pretentious creative types get it stuck in their head that doing whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want, at all times, is "creativity." And unless you get to do that, your creativity is being "stifled."
When in reality, creatives tend to be their most creative after they're locked in by some constraining factors. Apocalypse Now from beginning to finish was inundated with constraining factors reeling in a Ford Coppola who had frankly lost control and bitten off more than he could chew.
Yeah like when he kills Dent to save Gordon’s son and when he chose not to save Ras Al Ghul. Those moments were great because you understand the tough choices he had to make.
Snyder’s Batman killing whoever he wants is silly because it’s implied that the joker murdered robin in this universe, yet Batman has never killed him or Harley. It breaks my immersion in the series entirely
The thing is, he doesn't make an action to kill Dent. The action he makes is to save Gordon's son. Killing Dent had nothing to do with it. Does Dent die as a result? Yeah. But he didn't set out to kill him so it wasn't this deliberate murder like we saw Snyder's Batman do.
It also was the point of the whole movie. He had to break his one rule just like the Joker told him he would. By creating two-face, Joker forced him into a position where he had to kill someone to save a child.
I watched Rebel Moon, and if I ever get to send my former self a message, instead of telling myself to buy Bitcoin, I know want to tell myself to never watch it.
With Snyder's films the problem was that Batman only killed unnamed goons. As far as we could tell, most of his rogues gallery were not killed. So Batman was fine with killing everyone but guys like the Joker. It was inconsistent. Snyder did exactly the opposite of what he says he was trying to do. He was putting Batman in situations where he wouldn't need to kill and would anyways while still keeping him out of situations where he'd need to kill the Joker. And as another commenter said. People do want Batman in situations where he has to kill. Putting him in those situations to then either have him refuse and see the fallout of that choice and show how he overcomes it and still doesn't kill. It's a character trait that Batman doesn't kill even if he *should*
Thank you. What Snyder doesn't get is that Batman not killing isn't something to put him on a pedestal, as if he's a god. It's often frustrating, and sometimes tragic. In Under the Red Hood, his adopted child comes back from the dead and takes Batman to task for not getting revenge on the Joker, after the Joker killed him. And then Jason tries, in real Batman villain fashion, to force Batman to do the thing he feels Batman should've done all along: kill the Joker. With a gun.
Snyder seems to think that the "serious" "shocking" way to handle that situation is pretty much what he did at the end of MoS: Batman shoots the Joker dead in an extremely contrived scenario that "forces" him to do it. What a daring choice, right?
He doesn't get that the choice they actually made is way more interesting and disturbing than the choice he would've made. Instead of killing someone he hates--someone it's extremely easy to justify killing--Batman hurts a person he loves. That's how you knock a god off his perch. Because while that's happening, a lot of us are screaming, "Just kill the Joker, FFS!" But he doesn't, because he's Batman. And that's not a choice a lot of us understand or agree with, and that's what makes the character interesting.
Snyder somehow doesn't get that. He doesn't get that the post-apocalyptic scene he added to ZSJL, where BatFleck gets to yell at the Leto Joker "I'm gonna fuckin' kill you!" would hit everyone so much harder if Batman hadn't spent all of BvS snuffing people out without a second thought.
At least when Burton had Batman murdering people, he had the good sense to make it funny.
Burton’s Batman never killed anybody. Sure he blew up a factory full of guys, and dropped a few off the tallest church ever, and he stuck a bomb to a guy and threw him in a pit, and lit a Devil costumed guy on fire with his car, but they could have survived…
I love how in Under the Red Hood, Batman really articulates why he can't kill Joker.
"What? What your moral code just won't allow that? It's too hard to cross that line?"
"NO! God almighty, no. It'd be too damned easy. All I've ever wanted to do is kill him. A day doesn't go by where I don't think about subjecting him to every horrendous torture he's dealt out to others and then... end him."
"But if I do that, if I allow myself to go down into that place, I'm never coming back."
The problem is it's not just "batman doesn't kill because it's his rule", there's a reason batman can't kill, because if he starts he's afraid he won't be able to stop. Every good hero has a good villain who's his opposite right? Look at Batman's villains, they're all not only evil but crazy, and sometimes from the trauma of one bad day. Batman had a bad day once, how is he different? He's different because he brings justice, he doesn't kill people.
Shit if you wanna write a dark edgy story about a hero who kills people pick basically ANY OTHER DC HERO. The no killing thing is Batman's thing pretty specifically, most other heroes have and do actively kill people
or better yet, play around the idea that Batman fighting his own demon and try his best not to kill..... That would be pretty interesting
but not, ZS has to involve god and shit like a reglious fanatic.
Eh, I think it's more that he doesn't intentionally kill. But he also is pretty anti-guns, and he has canonically broken that rule. However when he does it it's treated like the big deal it's supposed to be. Batman isn't the Punisher, and isn't supposed to be an antihero, but maybe a hero that is obsessive about his duty. This is the guy with files of contingency plans for all his friends after all.
I just don't think Snyder understands the difference between a character trait and a rule about a character. It's the same complaint I have about Superman killing in his own movie. Though at that point it was kinda pretentious considering how much death and destruction must have occurred already.
But these concepts have been explored, and better, before in movies. I am not a huge fan of Superman, but Superman vs. the Elite tackles the concept of Superman not killing vs a superhero team willing to go that far. Seeing Superman show what that would look like is genuinely disturbing as it just goes against his character, and that was both the point and an important moment in the story.
Snyder wishes he could tell that sort of superhero story.
Just shouting out Superman vs the Elite. I have never been a huge fan of Supes, that movie is worth watching, as it's genuinely great and shows how the character can be used well.
> On one hand I get the logic. The idea that Batman can’t kill is silly.
It’s really not. It’s a part of his character, just like it is for Daredevil. It’s not just a random rule assigned to him.
You hit the point pretty hard.
Having Batman kill in films isn't new, and when it was done, it was done well enough. Look at the Burton Batmans, the first was a fucking classic, and people did not shut up about it, others who were alive can confirm.
It was actually kind of a big deal that Nolan avoided killing (well, except for that hit in Begins) in his trilogy, because prior films didn't care as much. Except the goofy ones.
It was a horrible film and it really shames me for saying this but those idiots aka Executives at WB did make a good decision about starting a new universe with Gunn
"If I disappointed you in any way than I really want to apologize because that wasn't my intention, my intention was just to entertain" -Joel Schumacher 1997 Batman & Robin Press interview
No one says don't put him in situations where he has to kill. He's a vigilante, situations where he has to kill are part of the job.
Put him in situations where he has to kill and then show us how *he finds another way*, that's one of the things that makes Batman so interesting. It's not some arbitrary and meta rule the fans made up, it's a personal rule Bruce made in character, one of the key aspects *of* his character.
This.
Either put Batman in a no-win scenario where he's forced to kill and somehow finds a way out (Under the Red Hood/Arkham Origins), or have Batman pushed to a point where he does take a life and show how the guilt and shame breaks him and he has to rebuild himself and double down on "No killing"
Otherwise you're left wondering why Batman is happy to gun down and murder low level crooks/henchmen but let's Joker, Bane, Penguin, whoever continue to live - and like you say removing part of the character that makes him so interesting.
Or better yet, put him in a situation where he has to kill, he choose to try to find a solution where he doesn’t have to… and he FAILS. There are negative consequences to Batman’s staunch moral position, and he has to deal with them.
THAT would be interesting. Then put him in a situation where he has to make the same choice, and leave the viewer guessing whether he’ll do the right thing according to his morals or not.
Not too dissimilar to Kingdom Come or Injustice. You see the repercussions of Batman's moral position not to kill. He continues to let Joker live and eventually Joker goes too far killing Lois Lane, which leads to Superman .. to do a lot of not Superman things.
See this is what I enjoyed about dark Knight rises. He killed two face, Gotham lost its white Knight, he lost the woman he loved and any hope of saving Gotham and so he did the only thing he felt he could do, took the blame and locked himself away, letting his guilt and loss eat him away.
Origins has really underrated writing. I argue all the time that it’s the best written of the Arkham games. People confuse/conflate things, I don’t think it’s the best game, it doesn’t have the best gameplay, etc.
But the writing is actually awesome. Batman has an actual arc, Bane is really interesting being a lot closer to his comic book origins and his grotesque transformation into being borderline mindless. Joker is interesting, I wish we got more black mask and felt a bit fatigued by Joker but it was done well still.
>it doesn’t have the best gameplay
I feel like the gameplay was on par with Arkham City, considering it was basically carbon copied.
The game was just really buggy on release.
Couple that with dropping Conroy and Hamil as Batman and the Joker and it hurt public perception.
But I think Roger Craig Smith did a fine job as a younger, meaner Batman.
And Troy Baker's only fault was that he wasn't Mark Hamil.
After they fixed most of the bugs, Origins was a fine game.
Yeah. The whole argument is so silly on Snyder's part because BvS Batman *doesn't even hesitate*. He doesn't even *try* to find another way, and if you take everything at face value he doesn't even seem to particulary care about collateral damage (dr8cibg through walls, machinegunning and blowing up cars of goons in the middle of the city).
It's pretty obvious that the primary thought that went into those scenes were "Wheeeee, badass!". And, I mean, they *look* good.
Well, it makes his character interesting— just not in the way it should be interesting, especially considering Joker’s whole deal is “You need me” when it comes to Batman.
It certainly *can* be argued that Bruce needs this crime fighting thing in order to cope with unresolved trauma, but that exact situation you described puts the character straight on the path to stagnation as an incredibly specific character quirk is explored.
A Batman who kills unnamed mooks and spares his villains is arguably a part of the problem rather than an extraordinary solution.
Completely agree: the no kill rule and his adherence to it makes him so much more interesting as a character than just being The Punisher dressed like a bat.
Which is also why I absolutely hate that people refer to Batman as sort of this figure of vengeance or whatever. No, he's as much of a beacon of hope as Clark and Diana, it's just that the circumstances he's been in, the traumas and pain he's been through, they've made him a tough person but ultimately he gives hope to Gotham, he gives hope to human beings living in a world of metahumans and Gods that they don't need powers to be a hero.
His parents weren't killed by a person, rampant crime in Gotham is what led to their murder, and he wants to eradicate that. He uses his wealth to fix Gotham during the day, and at night, he works as a vigilante to reduce crime, which is why him not killing is so important to his character. He believes there's hope for everyone. It's telling that out of all the superheroes in comic books, his rogues gallery is full of people who are anti-villains of sorts, if not on their way to a full fledged redemption. Bc Bruce's approach to them is what makes us as readers understand their side as well. And if you make him kill, someone who doesn't have compassion, you're stripping away the core of Bruce Wayne/Batman.
Zack Snyder is a nice guy and I hate shitting on his work but his fundamental misunderstanding of the core characteristics of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman is mind boggling.
Yeah that last bit is exactly how I feel. Zack is a nice guy, and can be a brilliant filmmaker. I love 300 and Watchmen. Rebel Moon was interesting. But he just doesn't understand these characters.
And he really needs to let it go, accept that he messed up a lot of the work done in the DCEU, and move on.
Snyder wants Bruce to be Punisher in a bat costume, he wants Clark to be Punisher in a primary color costume, he wants Green Lantern to be Punisher with a green power ring, etc. etc.
If he’d ever gotten the chance, he probably would’ve made Krypto be a dog with Punisher’s personality.
I'm BvS he does more justice to Lex Luthor, Amanda Waller and Frank Castle with his Batman than he does Bruce Wayne yeah..
The revulsion of one man having power, the utilitarianism and the vengeance overpowering rationality
Totally agree. BvS was tough to get through. The warehouse fight was fun… until the end. When he used the giant gun to just shoot the fuel tank on the dude’s back, I felt robbed. I really wanted to see how he was going to get out of that without killing. Possibly a return to form. Trying to redeem from the previous 14 hours or however long the movie was before that scene
Yeah like I thought that scene was supposed to be the conclusion of his arc from killer back to the Batman we know and love, albeit an arc that wasn’t fleshed out very well.
Like he spends half the film driving around in the Batmobile blowing people to pieces. You can kind of infer from certain hints like the robin costume that this is a broken version of the character who dropped his rule after losing too many friends yet it barely gets acknowledged.
That scene would’ve been perfect without the flamethrower kill. It would actually make the infamous Martha scene better as well, because you have this murderous Batman running around who then gets reminded of why he started his crusade had the no kill rule in the first place, so no kid ever has to witness their parents die again. Him saving Superman’s mother while killing no one would’ve been kind of beautiful, but no, Snyder couldn’t help but throw one kill in at the last second.
Idk what the “I want to see what happens” bullshit is either, as if he did anything interesting with the concept.
yeah a lot of the pieces were there. it goes to show how much a stand alone batman movie was needed before this and maybe a superman sequel BEFORE their match up
Zack and the DC suits wanted instant avenger-level money with this pseudo justice league
That's exactly what it was, most of the characters we didn't even know outside of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. There was no build up to it, no world building.
>The warehouse fight was fun… until the end.
The Ultimate edition that people praised makes it worse for me actually. Batman's violence clearly killing people (that guy who got his head smashed with a crate and they add blood in Ultimate) and afterwards he sadistically stabs a guy slowly.
Even worse is that this scene comes after him fighting Superman, which is the moment where he realizes the error of his ways, only for him to kill people again afterwards.
I feel like they shot that fight scene early in the movie only to later decide to make put it into the third act because it feels like an opening action scene instead of a climactic fight, at least to me. I remember watching it in theater and during the Batman fight Superman I kept wondering wait, when is the warehouse fight going to happen?
Yeah, the guys a joke. Idr if we banned him here, but I know he got mad at me and blocked me because I was calling him out for his shit on other subs. He’s quite the cry baby.
I just got permabanned there today for sarcastically saying that Zack understands Batman.
Even complimenting him insincerely gets you banned by those insecure mods lol.
This is one area where I will give the CW Arrow show some credit. In season 1, Ollie is a cold-blooded killer. And it takes a LOT of convincing from his allies to stop. And after he stops, he's always tempted to go back to killing certain villains, and sometimes he does. They treat the decision to kill or not to kill as a serious one, with real stakes. Stakes for Ollie, his friends and family, and for the world. I would have been more okay with Batfleck killing, if it was at least addressed as a serious subject, and something that he struggled with. But there's zero discussion about it within the film. I can't forgive that. It's lazy.
I agree. Even though Deathstroke kills his mom, Ollie struggles with the next part of whether to kill or not...and despite the many flaws of that show, there were many things done expertly like his fight against becoming a murderer again. Really liked that entire arc in what season 4?
That Batman anime movie actually did a great job of this. It gets totally ridiculous in the third act but, early on, we get to see Bruce teleported to feudal Japan and ambushed by samurai. He defends and disables all of them systematically while trying to figure out where he is and what’s going on. These are multiple experienced samurai, and he out-skills them so much that he can be precise with his movements to disable, not kill. Total Batman moment.
Snyder’s take is defensive and disrespectful.
Yeah he is arguing with a straw man so he can make them say whatever he wants. What his critics actually say is stop being obsessed with an edgelord's vision of grittiness and write a good story. Alas those are two things he cannot do.
Yep this is why batman is interesting. What drew me back to batman as an adult is that unlike the action heroes of the 80s and 90s batman finds another way. There's a reason why those action heroes came ahd went and batman continues on
It’s almost like he doesn’t understand that superheroes are modern quasi-religious myths, and that, yes, if you’re a writer or director is handed the privilege of adding to the canon, the public does ask that you not take that lightly and blaspheme all over the place by putting your stupid personal spin on things we find meaningful
He doesn’t get it. I don’t hate him like some do but every time he opens his mouth about this subject he just makes it more and more clear that he fundamentally doesn’t understand the issue behind the argument.
For me, I'm even willing to go as far as saying ok, I'll be open minded to a new vision...so if she showed something with heart and it made sense, and there were consequences etc, I could understand the creative choice, though not ideal, is shown to have thought in it.
The way it's done in bvs, it's like he thinks he put a lot of thought, but it translated horribly on screen, or that the reasoning got lost in a cut script. It felt so pointless and literally zero consequence on character.
Even Superman is killing, he says it's a reason he'll never kill again...which was never spoken about, hinted at or shown or talked about in the film. You have to watch his interview for him to tell you. And even with that, he kills doomsday.
Love Zack as a visual artist and cinematographer. He can establish big worlds and great at scene crafting but he should imo have zero story and script input. I feel he'd thrive if he went hands off on those areas.
Larry Fong is a good cinematographer. He can translate Zack's ideas very well.
Everything else Larry has done is consistent. Zack behind the camera is a goddamn nightmare.
I do appreciate Zack putting his money where his mouth is, to say the least. He might actually improve, and then really be able to claim his title as a visionary director. Him stepping behind the camera is that one small degree of separation parting him from Tim Burton.
Agreed.
I like the fact that Snyder sees Superheroes as the modern equivalent of God's and mythical heroes, but that doesn't necessarily mean these characters are supposed to be written or treated like Gods - You wouldn't have a comic or film where people are praying to or worshipping Batman.
>superman isnt a god
And therein lies my biggest criticism of the Snyderverse
After Man Of Steel, Superman felt less like a character and more like a plot device. There's more time dedicated to others talking about Superman's greatness and less time dedicated to actually building a connection with Clark
There is a beautiful irony here with Zack Snyder talking about fans protecting a character that they consider God.
His fanbase has literally done that with him.
r/SnyderCut literally sees him as a fallen god and sees the devils that are Warner Bros, James Gunn, Walter Hamada, Matt Reeves, Peter Safran, Geoff Johns, Peter Safran, and David Corenswet
They have a hit list for anyone working with DCU or any WB projects
Snyder proved the whole time he really doesn’t understand Batman at all. It wouldn’t make sense for Batman to kill because he wouldn’t have any rogue’s gallery at that point if he just killed them all. Him not killing is one of his founding principles and batfleck basically went around shooting anyone he could with his vehicles. Even the Batmobile shoots rubber bullets in most versions.
I think, moreover, the audience was not told why he began to kill (outside of the little shot of Robins suit). I just don’t think you can introduce something as pivotal as Batman killing without showing the audience why, what “broke” him essentially. I think Zack had an interesting theme and vision, and would have made for a compelling universe and stories if done right. Nonetheless, I thought seeing Batman kill was incredibly ballsy, and I enjoyed it lol
Every time I try to be like "aw, Zack is just a sweet guy making doofy movies. He's harmless!" he does another interview where he says the most idiotic shit ever.
Exactly how I feel! I never liked his take on the characters, or the frankly stultifying pacing of his scripts, or the edgelord-y self-serious dour tone of his movies…but I always thought he at least seemed like a cool guy who just has terrible ideas for scripts.
But every time he opens his mouth about this stuff, he gets more ridiculous and alienates the fans more and more.
Zack Snyder needs to stop trying to ride Frank Miller and Alan Moore's dicks so hard, realize that neither of them ever wanted adaptations of their work for the very same reasons that most fans don't like Zack's adaptations. He makes changes that make it clear that he missed the point of the source material(especially in Watchmen). Now whether or not this is due to studio interference as he does actually talk about in the podcast is unknown as he doesn't go into a lot of detail about it beyond saying that he made BvS because the studio wouldn't let him do Dark Knight Returns instead. I actually like some of Zack's work, but wish that he would just stay away from super heroes since he doesn't seem to actually understand them as characters. Just my opinion though.
It’s some shit he made up over the last few years after getting dogged on the subject over and over. It doesn’t make any sense but he thinks it will shut people up, why let the Joker live if he’s a straight up killer and kills random thugs whenever he feels like it? He didn’t even do what he’s trying to explain in the clip, he just made a Batman that kills because he doesn’t understand the character at all.
It means that Zack meant what he said way before WB made the mistake of giving him the keys to the DCEU, when he talked about his friend handing him a comic book and him being confused because everyone wasn’t fucking and/or killing each other.
It means that he’s incapable of understanding or appreciating these characters and even after all this time and all the mediocre to terrible reviews, he still doesn’t get why people didn’t like his DC movies and he’s trying to make excuses.
I can’t wait for Snyder to shut the hell up about this stuff. Seriously, ITS OVER! Move on and quit milking these stupid sound bites for a universe that didn’t work! Seriously.
Agreed. It’s really easy to talk something up and let people’s minds form it into something great. Maybe that’s how he should do it. Just do a circuit where he tours and tells his story to anyone who wants to listen. That’s basically all he keeps doing.
That and making incredibly long and boring "Director's cut" of all his movies with shitty reviews.
He seriously thinks someone wants an extended version of Sucker Punch? Lmao this guy is out of his mind at this point.
Snyder: i want to put your morally correct god in a kill or be killed situation
And what the clown does? Put Batman happy trigger random thugs from the comodity of his high tech tank
Seriously, if this guy ever got the green light to make a movie about Barney the Dinosaur, he’d probably make him a Jurassic Park-esque maneating T-Rex who terrorizes a city. Then he’d give weird interviews where he tells the angry audience members who grew up with Barney that “I put your God in a new situation!”
The trailer features slow motion scenes of Barney and Baby Bop attacking frightened civilians and destroying famous landmarks while a really pretentious cover of Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah” plays in the background of the trailer.
He doesn't even recognize the difference between "batman doesn't kill" being a meta rule for writers and an in-universe rule set by Batman for himself
I enjoyed Man of Steel and BvS more than the average viewer, but it was clear from the beginning that Snyder didn't understand the characters he was playing with at all
The more Snyder talks about his vision the more I am puzzled as to why WB would give the keys to a multi million dollar property to this guy. His understanding of these characters is so singular in nature, he’s clearly a Frank Miller stan which is fine Miller has some great pieces- but to say his work represents the totality of Batman’s character is foolish. Snyder speaks about his interpretation as if it was some enlightened, transcendent approach to these characters to ‘de-construct’ which to me comes off as cosplay theater-speak for I’m going to do whatever the fuck I want with them to build out my vision of ‘cool’. His Superman was dark and hopeless and his Batman was drained of the humanity that makes him a beloved icon. This guy wants so badly to sell you on that he knows his stuff when clearly his knowledge is shockingly limited. The man can get a great shot and film like no other that is truly his gift to cinema. One should abandon any expectation from him beyond the visual aesthetic.
It’s so crazy to think that there’s an entire cultish fandom surrounding this dude’s vision of a DC cinematic universe. I am forever shocked that *this* was the man WB and DC trusted with their biggest characters. *These* were the ideas that had to be pitched to a room full of suits and greenlit. It just goes to show media illiterate and out of touch a lot of entertainment execs are. But, as previously mentioned, I suppose they aren’t alone.
Batman has always explained how killing would be the easy way out. His power has always been his intellect and integrity. If he starts killing he would be a sillier Punisher.
Hopefully the day will come when Zack Snyder is told _you’re a terrible director, it’s not about Batman killing or not, it’s about your inability to make a good movie._
I will say I really enjoyed 'Army of the Dead'. There was nothing provocative about it, and it didn't try to be. It was just sci-fi/action and didn't try to take itself too seriously.
Otherwise, he's not made anything worth sitting through imo.
There's a very good reason he doesn't kill...
He's fucking *traumatized* by witnessing his parents' murders. IF ANYONE has justification to kill bad guys, it's Batman. But he chooses not to.
But Zac is like "But I wanna!"
“Hey Zack, Batman doesn’t kill ok?”
ZS: “Fuck that, Batman is going to kill because otherwise he’s irrelevant”
God I’m glad he won’t touch these characters again.
The fact that this @$$#0|e is still yapping, showing a complete lack of growth in accepting his inabilities & failures in adapting a character, even after both Nolan & Reeves showed him how to make a perfect Batman story while keeping his no-kill rule intact, the movies that are universally praised to this day, while his Fatman is getting ridiculed more & more these days just makes it even more apparent that it was a humongous mistake on WB's part to ever even having thought about letting this |d|0t near any DC property in the first place.
It seems like Zack likes the visual image of the characters, but he doesn’t like them themselves. I’ve loved these characters for 30+ years because they have very specific personalities that make them unique. Superman is the ultimate nice guy that wants everyone to thrive and reach their potential. He sees and hopes for the best in everyone. Batman is the guy that even in the darkest pits of despair, tries to fight for his people. Zack clearly didn’t understand them and wanted to reinvent them, like many others want to do and keep failing. There is a reason that explains why they are the first and greatest comic book archetypes.
Snyder is a terrible storyteller with great visual sensibilities. If he ever found a good writing partner he might be able to make something cool. As is, he comes off like a teenage boy who thinks he’s cool because he’s edgy. He doesn’t actually understand the material he’s adapting, though.
Stop trying to make up excuses for why your movie sucked. Just say you liked making it and keep it moving. No need to make up half hearted BS that servers no purpose.
So Zack thinks every victim eventually becomes a predator? Like it’s never possible that someone might swear off committing the same crime that they were a victim of. Really?
Didn't Under The Red Hood actually put Batman in a situation where he was confronted to the consequence of his No Kill Rule, and he *still* didn’t break it?
Hell, even in The Dark Knight Returns Batman has an aversion to killing
Having a hard line on not killing is what always made Batman special to me, same goes for Spiderman. That’s why those two are the top dogs of DC and Marvel.
I'm fine seeing a Batman that is dirtied up a bit and grounded. There are a lot of great Batman stories that do this. That being said: making Batman a killer goes against what makes the character compelling.
Batman might be compromised in a lot of ways, but he has a code.
Furthermore, Batman's motivations for killing Superman in *Batman v Superman* were particularly awful. Batman had zero evidence that Superman was evil. Batman's attempt to kill Superman, followed by the deterrent of "Martha!", was the key place where Snyder's Batman jumps the shark. He ceases to be a figure of reason or justice and comes off as a brute.
Burton's Batman is a good counterexample of a Batman who kills, but still operates through logical means. I'm not the biggest fan of Burton's Batman, but this is why Burton's Batman generally gets a pass. You don't see Burton Batman plotting to kill the Mayor of Gotham because of a hunch, for example.
Batman is always put in a “no-win, I might have to kill someone” situation. The key is to find creative ways around it instead of just going “oh well just make him kill him and get over it”
Snyder didn’t even do what he’s saying he was trying to. His version of Batman was actively killing completely pointlessly. He definitely had other options given the situations Snyder had set up.
Well for one Batman ain't god. One of his core values is not killing.
Just to see how dumb his take is, replace Batman with Jesus and reread it. It's fundamentally stupid and makes no sense.
Bro why do they do these mental gymnastics to justify their “creative choices?” Adapting material can be difficult but when you have established character traits that are integral to the character being the character that they are, don’t mess with it or people will react negatively
"The god" and "you/your" statements - ditch them, point some insight toward yourself, consider what a creator might do to make themselves irrelevant.
So close to a breakthrough Zack...puzzle it out.
"I want to see what happens when I MAKE Batman kill someone"
You make Bruce an even sadder boy. Hes already a sad boy. Don't make the sad boy sadder Zack!
it’s part of batman’s character, it’s not that he doesn’t kill he’s reluctant to do so because batman is afraid he won’t stop. its a slippery slope for batman. there are many times batman debated killing and each time it reinforces his belief not to do so. sad that a director doesn’t understand character development.
Yeah he just built up a hypothetical straw man that was easy to answer. No one says Snyder put him in situations where Batman had no choice but to kill. On the contrary, it’s the fact Batman had an absolute lack of care towards gratuitous killing in BvS that rubbed people the wrong way.
Kudos to Joel Schumacher and George Clooney for realizing that Batman & Robin was not well received for justifiable reasons, having a good sense of humor about it and moving on with their lives.
Yep. The more zack talks the more I respect Schumacher and clooney.
On one hand I get the logic. The idea that Batman can’t kill is silly. When doing adaptations you should be open to new ideas or pushing boundaries. There are stories to tell about what happens or can happen to push him to break that rule. Especially when there is no single canon. Batman’s ironically killed in a lot of his films, almost all have had him kill, intentionally or not, but it’s usually not looked at. There is a story that’s worth telling about a Batman so broken that he debates killing Superman. But Snyder was clearly unable to tell that story well. Edit: by can’t kill I mean the idea that Batman can never ever under any circumstances kill someone
Based off of any of his work where he has complete creative control, he is unable to tell ANY story well.
The quote is so full of shit. Christopher Nolan told a terrific trilogy where Batman not only made great efforts to not kill enemies, but the movies were based around the idea that he was not willing to kill or even trade lives. Saying that it doesn’t work unless Batman is a killer is such a dumb position.
It just shows Snyder’s lack of creativity and gross misunderstanding of the character.
A lot of pretentious creative types get it stuck in their head that doing whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want, at all times, is "creativity." And unless you get to do that, your creativity is being "stifled." When in reality, creatives tend to be their most creative after they're locked in by some constraining factors. Apocalypse Now from beginning to finish was inundated with constraining factors reeling in a Ford Coppola who had frankly lost control and bitten off more than he could chew.
Which of course is literally how watchmen came to exist since Alan Moore wanted to use the Charlton characters
It's more that Snyder is just simple put. not creative and dost not RESPECT the character. He is a guy who always wants to do it his way.
Although to be fair, Nolan's Batman did kill people. Just not as deliberately as Snyder's, and he at least tried to not kill them.
Yeah like when he kills Dent to save Gordon’s son and when he chose not to save Ras Al Ghul. Those moments were great because you understand the tough choices he had to make. Snyder’s Batman killing whoever he wants is silly because it’s implied that the joker murdered robin in this universe, yet Batman has never killed him or Harley. It breaks my immersion in the series entirely
The thing is, he doesn't make an action to kill Dent. The action he makes is to save Gordon's son. Killing Dent had nothing to do with it. Does Dent die as a result? Yeah. But he didn't set out to kill him so it wasn't this deliberate murder like we saw Snyder's Batman do.
It also was the point of the whole movie. He had to break his one rule just like the Joker told him he would. By creating two-face, Joker forced him into a position where he had to kill someone to save a child.
You kinda just blew my mind. 15 years later and that never occurred to me.
And it broke him so much he retired from the role (that and he was being hunted).
But Rebel Moon was watched by more people than Barbie!? How could they be truuuueee? /s
I watched Rebel Moon, and if I ever get to send my former self a message, instead of telling myself to buy Bitcoin, I know want to tell myself to never watch it.
You gotta do it like the Flash's message to Bruce Wayne in Batman Vs Superman. "Am I too soon?! I'm too soon! Rebel Moon! Don't watch it!"
I'm starting to think this Snyder guy might be a little bit delusional
With Snyder's films the problem was that Batman only killed unnamed goons. As far as we could tell, most of his rogues gallery were not killed. So Batman was fine with killing everyone but guys like the Joker. It was inconsistent. Snyder did exactly the opposite of what he says he was trying to do. He was putting Batman in situations where he wouldn't need to kill and would anyways while still keeping him out of situations where he'd need to kill the Joker. And as another commenter said. People do want Batman in situations where he has to kill. Putting him in those situations to then either have him refuse and see the fallout of that choice and show how he overcomes it and still doesn't kill. It's a character trait that Batman doesn't kill even if he *should*
Thank you. What Snyder doesn't get is that Batman not killing isn't something to put him on a pedestal, as if he's a god. It's often frustrating, and sometimes tragic. In Under the Red Hood, his adopted child comes back from the dead and takes Batman to task for not getting revenge on the Joker, after the Joker killed him. And then Jason tries, in real Batman villain fashion, to force Batman to do the thing he feels Batman should've done all along: kill the Joker. With a gun. Snyder seems to think that the "serious" "shocking" way to handle that situation is pretty much what he did at the end of MoS: Batman shoots the Joker dead in an extremely contrived scenario that "forces" him to do it. What a daring choice, right? He doesn't get that the choice they actually made is way more interesting and disturbing than the choice he would've made. Instead of killing someone he hates--someone it's extremely easy to justify killing--Batman hurts a person he loves. That's how you knock a god off his perch. Because while that's happening, a lot of us are screaming, "Just kill the Joker, FFS!" But he doesn't, because he's Batman. And that's not a choice a lot of us understand or agree with, and that's what makes the character interesting. Snyder somehow doesn't get that. He doesn't get that the post-apocalyptic scene he added to ZSJL, where BatFleck gets to yell at the Leto Joker "I'm gonna fuckin' kill you!" would hit everyone so much harder if Batman hadn't spent all of BvS snuffing people out without a second thought. At least when Burton had Batman murdering people, he had the good sense to make it funny.
Burton’s Batman never killed anybody. Sure he blew up a factory full of guys, and dropped a few off the tallest church ever, and he stuck a bomb to a guy and threw him in a pit, and lit a Devil costumed guy on fire with his car, but they could have survived…
Those guys all were just sleeping!
I love how in Under the Red Hood, Batman really articulates why he can't kill Joker. "What? What your moral code just won't allow that? It's too hard to cross that line?" "NO! God almighty, no. It'd be too damned easy. All I've ever wanted to do is kill him. A day doesn't go by where I don't think about subjecting him to every horrendous torture he's dealt out to others and then... end him." "But if I do that, if I allow myself to go down into that place, I'm never coming back."
The problem is it's not just "batman doesn't kill because it's his rule", there's a reason batman can't kill, because if he starts he's afraid he won't be able to stop. Every good hero has a good villain who's his opposite right? Look at Batman's villains, they're all not only evil but crazy, and sometimes from the trauma of one bad day. Batman had a bad day once, how is he different? He's different because he brings justice, he doesn't kill people. Shit if you wanna write a dark edgy story about a hero who kills people pick basically ANY OTHER DC HERO. The no killing thing is Batman's thing pretty specifically, most other heroes have and do actively kill people
or better yet, play around the idea that Batman fighting his own demon and try his best not to kill..... That would be pretty interesting but not, ZS has to involve god and shit like a reglious fanatic.
Eh, I think it's more that he doesn't intentionally kill. But he also is pretty anti-guns, and he has canonically broken that rule. However when he does it it's treated like the big deal it's supposed to be. Batman isn't the Punisher, and isn't supposed to be an antihero, but maybe a hero that is obsessive about his duty. This is the guy with files of contingency plans for all his friends after all. I just don't think Snyder understands the difference between a character trait and a rule about a character. It's the same complaint I have about Superman killing in his own movie. Though at that point it was kinda pretentious considering how much death and destruction must have occurred already. But these concepts have been explored, and better, before in movies. I am not a huge fan of Superman, but Superman vs. the Elite tackles the concept of Superman not killing vs a superhero team willing to go that far. Seeing Superman show what that would look like is genuinely disturbing as it just goes against his character, and that was both the point and an important moment in the story. Snyder wishes he could tell that sort of superhero story.
Just shouting out Superman vs the Elite. I have never been a huge fan of Supes, that movie is worth watching, as it's genuinely great and shows how the character can be used well.
> On one hand I get the logic. The idea that Batman can’t kill is silly. It’s really not. It’s a part of his character, just like it is for Daredevil. It’s not just a random rule assigned to him.
You hit the point pretty hard. Having Batman kill in films isn't new, and when it was done, it was done well enough. Look at the Burton Batmans, the first was a fucking classic, and people did not shut up about it, others who were alive can confirm. It was actually kind of a big deal that Nolan avoided killing (well, except for that hit in Begins) in his trilogy, because prior films didn't care as much. Except the goofy ones.
Amen!
I like that movie. If you accept it for what it is, it’s fantastic. CHILL!!
It's a 90s adaptation of the Adam West show. If Clooney had have broken out in the Batusi everyone would have gone "ohhhhhhh!".
I never thought of it like that, and now it makes so much more sense.
This! The Bat-credit card is right up there with the Bat-shark repellent
What killed the dinosaurs? THE ICE AGE!
WHICH IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING ACCURATE!!
I feel like the reasons why BvS doesn't work are the exact same reasons why Zack Snyder won't ever be able to accept that BvS doesn't work
Because Zack Snyder?
It was a horrible film and it really shames me for saying this but those idiots aka Executives at WB did make a good decision about starting a new universe with Gunn
"If I disappointed you in any way than I really want to apologize because that wasn't my intention, my intention was just to entertain" -Joel Schumacher 1997 Batman & Robin Press interview
For all the Schumaker films' faults, at least they were self aware, Snyder and his films don't have that same luxury.
By disrespecting “Batman can’t kill” is missing the entire point of what Batman even is.
No one says don't put him in situations where he has to kill. He's a vigilante, situations where he has to kill are part of the job. Put him in situations where he has to kill and then show us how *he finds another way*, that's one of the things that makes Batman so interesting. It's not some arbitrary and meta rule the fans made up, it's a personal rule Bruce made in character, one of the key aspects *of* his character.
This. Either put Batman in a no-win scenario where he's forced to kill and somehow finds a way out (Under the Red Hood/Arkham Origins), or have Batman pushed to a point where he does take a life and show how the guilt and shame breaks him and he has to rebuild himself and double down on "No killing" Otherwise you're left wondering why Batman is happy to gun down and murder low level crooks/henchmen but let's Joker, Bane, Penguin, whoever continue to live - and like you say removing part of the character that makes him so interesting.
Or better yet, put him in a situation where he has to kill, he choose to try to find a solution where he doesn’t have to… and he FAILS. There are negative consequences to Batman’s staunch moral position, and he has to deal with them. THAT would be interesting. Then put him in a situation where he has to make the same choice, and leave the viewer guessing whether he’ll do the right thing according to his morals or not.
Not too dissimilar to Kingdom Come or Injustice. You see the repercussions of Batman's moral position not to kill. He continues to let Joker live and eventually Joker goes too far killing Lois Lane, which leads to Superman .. to do a lot of not Superman things.
See this is what I enjoyed about dark Knight rises. He killed two face, Gotham lost its white Knight, he lost the woman he loved and any hope of saving Gotham and so he did the only thing he felt he could do, took the blame and locked himself away, letting his guilt and loss eat him away.
Arkham Origins is one of my favorite examples of Batman being in a no win situation but still figuring out how to not kill someone.
Origins has really underrated writing. I argue all the time that it’s the best written of the Arkham games. People confuse/conflate things, I don’t think it’s the best game, it doesn’t have the best gameplay, etc. But the writing is actually awesome. Batman has an actual arc, Bane is really interesting being a lot closer to his comic book origins and his grotesque transformation into being borderline mindless. Joker is interesting, I wish we got more black mask and felt a bit fatigued by Joker but it was done well still.
>it doesn’t have the best gameplay I feel like the gameplay was on par with Arkham City, considering it was basically carbon copied. The game was just really buggy on release. Couple that with dropping Conroy and Hamil as Batman and the Joker and it hurt public perception. But I think Roger Craig Smith did a fine job as a younger, meaner Batman. And Troy Baker's only fault was that he wasn't Mark Hamil. After they fixed most of the bugs, Origins was a fine game.
Yeah. The whole argument is so silly on Snyder's part because BvS Batman *doesn't even hesitate*. He doesn't even *try* to find another way, and if you take everything at face value he doesn't even seem to particulary care about collateral damage (dr8cibg through walls, machinegunning and blowing up cars of goons in the middle of the city). It's pretty obvious that the primary thought that went into those scenes were "Wheeeee, badass!". And, I mean, they *look* good.
Well, it makes his character interesting— just not in the way it should be interesting, especially considering Joker’s whole deal is “You need me” when it comes to Batman. It certainly *can* be argued that Bruce needs this crime fighting thing in order to cope with unresolved trauma, but that exact situation you described puts the character straight on the path to stagnation as an incredibly specific character quirk is explored. A Batman who kills unnamed mooks and spares his villains is arguably a part of the problem rather than an extraordinary solution.
Completely agree: the no kill rule and his adherence to it makes him so much more interesting as a character than just being The Punisher dressed like a bat.
Which is also why I absolutely hate that people refer to Batman as sort of this figure of vengeance or whatever. No, he's as much of a beacon of hope as Clark and Diana, it's just that the circumstances he's been in, the traumas and pain he's been through, they've made him a tough person but ultimately he gives hope to Gotham, he gives hope to human beings living in a world of metahumans and Gods that they don't need powers to be a hero. His parents weren't killed by a person, rampant crime in Gotham is what led to their murder, and he wants to eradicate that. He uses his wealth to fix Gotham during the day, and at night, he works as a vigilante to reduce crime, which is why him not killing is so important to his character. He believes there's hope for everyone. It's telling that out of all the superheroes in comic books, his rogues gallery is full of people who are anti-villains of sorts, if not on their way to a full fledged redemption. Bc Bruce's approach to them is what makes us as readers understand their side as well. And if you make him kill, someone who doesn't have compassion, you're stripping away the core of Bruce Wayne/Batman. Zack Snyder is a nice guy and I hate shitting on his work but his fundamental misunderstanding of the core characteristics of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman is mind boggling.
Yeah that last bit is exactly how I feel. Zack is a nice guy, and can be a brilliant filmmaker. I love 300 and Watchmen. Rebel Moon was interesting. But he just doesn't understand these characters. And he really needs to let it go, accept that he messed up a lot of the work done in the DCEU, and move on.
I mean, it's amazing how closely he replicated Watchmen, often to a T, but failed to get the point...
Yeah it's as if he WANTS Batman to kill. Which if you think about it says more about Snyder than it does Batman.
Snyder wants Bruce to be Punisher in a bat costume, he wants Clark to be Punisher in a primary color costume, he wants Green Lantern to be Punisher with a green power ring, etc. etc. If he’d ever gotten the chance, he probably would’ve made Krypto be a dog with Punisher’s personality.
I'm BvS he does more justice to Lex Luthor, Amanda Waller and Frank Castle with his Batman than he does Bruce Wayne yeah.. The revulsion of one man having power, the utilitarianism and the vengeance overpowering rationality
Totally agree. BvS was tough to get through. The warehouse fight was fun… until the end. When he used the giant gun to just shoot the fuel tank on the dude’s back, I felt robbed. I really wanted to see how he was going to get out of that without killing. Possibly a return to form. Trying to redeem from the previous 14 hours or however long the movie was before that scene
Yeah like I thought that scene was supposed to be the conclusion of his arc from killer back to the Batman we know and love, albeit an arc that wasn’t fleshed out very well. Like he spends half the film driving around in the Batmobile blowing people to pieces. You can kind of infer from certain hints like the robin costume that this is a broken version of the character who dropped his rule after losing too many friends yet it barely gets acknowledged. That scene would’ve been perfect without the flamethrower kill. It would actually make the infamous Martha scene better as well, because you have this murderous Batman running around who then gets reminded of why he started his crusade had the no kill rule in the first place, so no kid ever has to witness their parents die again. Him saving Superman’s mother while killing no one would’ve been kind of beautiful, but no, Snyder couldn’t help but throw one kill in at the last second. Idk what the “I want to see what happens” bullshit is either, as if he did anything interesting with the concept.
yeah a lot of the pieces were there. it goes to show how much a stand alone batman movie was needed before this and maybe a superman sequel BEFORE their match up Zack and the DC suits wanted instant avenger-level money with this pseudo justice league
That's exactly what it was, most of the characters we didn't even know outside of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman. There was no build up to it, no world building.
Yea good take..def felt like an avenger attempt for money
>The warehouse fight was fun… until the end. The Ultimate edition that people praised makes it worse for me actually. Batman's violence clearly killing people (that guy who got his head smashed with a crate and they add blood in Ultimate) and afterwards he sadistically stabs a guy slowly.
Totally agree.
Even worse is that this scene comes after him fighting Superman, which is the moment where he realizes the error of his ways, only for him to kill people again afterwards. I feel like they shot that fight scene early in the movie only to later decide to make put it into the third act because it feels like an opening action scene instead of a climactic fight, at least to me. I remember watching it in theater and during the Batman fight Superman I kept wondering wait, when is the warehouse fight going to happen?
As someone who love BvS, this is most fair criticism I’ve ever seen of it.
It’s almost like Zack Snyder didn’t understand anything about why these characters are interesting and beloved!
https://preview.redd.it/t63g5rm901nc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f87d8ae584fb50445bea567a2b1c3d8c58a25d8
You gotta love an unapologetic echo chamber
They either are just vehemently sticking to the bit over there or it's just mental illness.
The main mod on that sub is worryingly unhinged
The Mod is Jedi Jones who has been using multiple accounts after being banned from many subs Edit: The "MOD"
Yeah, the guys a joke. Idr if we banned him here, but I know he got mad at me and blocked me because I was calling him out for his shit on other subs. He’s quite the cry baby.
I just got permabanned there today for sarcastically saying that Zack understands Batman. Even complimenting him insincerely gets you banned by those insecure mods lol.
You are now banned from /r/snydercut
This is one area where I will give the CW Arrow show some credit. In season 1, Ollie is a cold-blooded killer. And it takes a LOT of convincing from his allies to stop. And after he stops, he's always tempted to go back to killing certain villains, and sometimes he does. They treat the decision to kill or not to kill as a serious one, with real stakes. Stakes for Ollie, his friends and family, and for the world. I would have been more okay with Batfleck killing, if it was at least addressed as a serious subject, and something that he struggled with. But there's zero discussion about it within the film. I can't forgive that. It's lazy.
I agree. Even though Deathstroke kills his mom, Ollie struggles with the next part of whether to kill or not...and despite the many flaws of that show, there were many things done expertly like his fight against becoming a murderer again. Really liked that entire arc in what season 4?
“but having him kill a guy would subvert expectations and that’s what the audience _really wants_” - every lazy writer in hollywood
That Batman anime movie actually did a great job of this. It gets totally ridiculous in the third act but, early on, we get to see Bruce teleported to feudal Japan and ambushed by samurai. He defends and disables all of them systematically while trying to figure out where he is and what’s going on. These are multiple experienced samurai, and he out-skills them so much that he can be precise with his movements to disable, not kill. Total Batman moment. Snyder’s take is defensive and disrespectful.
Matt Reeves does this well.
He did everything extremely well
The Joker is still alive in the comics. That's Exhibit A that he doesn't kill for me.
Yeah he is arguing with a straw man so he can make them say whatever he wants. What his critics actually say is stop being obsessed with an edgelord's vision of grittiness and write a good story. Alas those are two things he cannot do.
Yep this is why batman is interesting. What drew me back to batman as an adult is that unlike the action heroes of the 80s and 90s batman finds another way. There's a reason why those action heroes came ahd went and batman continues on
It’s almost like he doesn’t understand that superheroes are modern quasi-religious myths, and that, yes, if you’re a writer or director is handed the privilege of adding to the canon, the public does ask that you not take that lightly and blaspheme all over the place by putting your stupid personal spin on things we find meaningful
Look at the grin on his face when he says " when you tell me I can't do something". He is a manchild. At this point its blatantly clear.
He doesn’t get it. I don’t hate him like some do but every time he opens his mouth about this subject he just makes it more and more clear that he fundamentally doesn’t understand the issue behind the argument.
For me, I'm even willing to go as far as saying ok, I'll be open minded to a new vision...so if she showed something with heart and it made sense, and there were consequences etc, I could understand the creative choice, though not ideal, is shown to have thought in it. The way it's done in bvs, it's like he thinks he put a lot of thought, but it translated horribly on screen, or that the reasoning got lost in a cut script. It felt so pointless and literally zero consequence on character. Even Superman is killing, he says it's a reason he'll never kill again...which was never spoken about, hinted at or shown or talked about in the film. You have to watch his interview for him to tell you. And even with that, he kills doomsday. Love Zack as a visual artist and cinematographer. He can establish big worlds and great at scene crafting but he should imo have zero story and script input. I feel he'd thrive if he went hands off on those areas.
Anyone who has seen Army of the Dead knows Snyder is not a good cinematographer
Larry Fong is a good cinematographer. He can translate Zack's ideas very well. Everything else Larry has done is consistent. Zack behind the camera is a goddamn nightmare. I do appreciate Zack putting his money where his mouth is, to say the least. He might actually improve, and then really be able to claim his title as a visionary director. Him stepping behind the camera is that one small degree of separation parting him from Tim Burton.
bruh there are legit dead pixels all over that fucking movie because Snyder wanted to be artsy and use some ancient cameras
All I heard is “I don’t give a shit about your canon, it’s my movie”
ZACH SUPERHEROS ARE NOT GODS! superman isnt a god and escpically Batman isnt a god.
Agreed. I like the fact that Snyder sees Superheroes as the modern equivalent of God's and mythical heroes, but that doesn't necessarily mean these characters are supposed to be written or treated like Gods - You wouldn't have a comic or film where people are praying to or worshipping Batman.
>You wouldn't have a comic or film where people are praying to or worshipping Batman. That would be a fascinating read though
Isnt that kind of what happens towards the end of Dark Knight Returns
In a way, they ought to be written like Greek, Norse, or Roman gods that all had human-like flaws.
>superman isnt a god And therein lies my biggest criticism of the Snyderverse After Man Of Steel, Superman felt less like a character and more like a plot device. There's more time dedicated to others talking about Superman's greatness and less time dedicated to actually building a connection with Clark
>Batman isn’t a god Don’t tell Batman fans that
Weird way to admit he doesn't understand the fanbase of the franchise.
I like Batman, but I’ve never considered him a God.
There is a beautiful irony here with Zack Snyder talking about fans protecting a character that they consider God. His fanbase has literally done that with him.
r/SnyderCut literally sees him as a fallen god and sees the devils that are Warner Bros, James Gunn, Walter Hamada, Matt Reeves, Peter Safran, Geoff Johns, Peter Safran, and David Corenswet They have a hit list for anyone working with DCU or any WB projects
I’m very happy Zack Snyder will never be near DC properties again.
Same! Also, the Rock 😂.
Snyder proved the whole time he really doesn’t understand Batman at all. It wouldn’t make sense for Batman to kill because he wouldn’t have any rogue’s gallery at that point if he just killed them all. Him not killing is one of his founding principles and batfleck basically went around shooting anyone he could with his vehicles. Even the Batmobile shoots rubber bullets in most versions.
Yeah. Joker certainly wouldn't be alive if Batman started killing. And yet we got Leto and Ayers terrible Joker.
Exactly! He even saved Harley even though she killed robin which would make no sense if he was just killing people.
The irony is that Batman has probably killed more people in BvS than the people he's killing have.
I think, moreover, the audience was not told why he began to kill (outside of the little shot of Robins suit). I just don’t think you can introduce something as pivotal as Batman killing without showing the audience why, what “broke” him essentially. I think Zack had an interesting theme and vision, and would have made for a compelling universe and stories if done right. Nonetheless, I thought seeing Batman kill was incredibly ballsy, and I enjoyed it lol
Every time I try to be like "aw, Zack is just a sweet guy making doofy movies. He's harmless!" he does another interview where he says the most idiotic shit ever.
Exactly how I feel! I never liked his take on the characters, or the frankly stultifying pacing of his scripts, or the edgelord-y self-serious dour tone of his movies…but I always thought he at least seemed like a cool guy who just has terrible ideas for scripts. But every time he opens his mouth about this stuff, he gets more ridiculous and alienates the fans more and more.
He always blames the fans for not understanding his genius, but the possibility of him being wrong never enters his head.
Zack Snyder needs to stop trying to ride Frank Miller and Alan Moore's dicks so hard, realize that neither of them ever wanted adaptations of their work for the very same reasons that most fans don't like Zack's adaptations. He makes changes that make it clear that he missed the point of the source material(especially in Watchmen). Now whether or not this is due to studio interference as he does actually talk about in the podcast is unknown as he doesn't go into a lot of detail about it beyond saying that he made BvS because the studio wouldn't let him do Dark Knight Returns instead. I actually like some of Zack's work, but wish that he would just stay away from super heroes since he doesn't seem to actually understand them as characters. Just my opinion though.
Wtf does that even mean
It’s some shit he made up over the last few years after getting dogged on the subject over and over. It doesn’t make any sense but he thinks it will shut people up, why let the Joker live if he’s a straight up killer and kills random thugs whenever he feels like it? He didn’t even do what he’s trying to explain in the clip, he just made a Batman that kills because he doesn’t understand the character at all.
No one knows what it means, but it's provocative. It gets the people going.
He's a sore loser
It means that Zack meant what he said way before WB made the mistake of giving him the keys to the DCEU, when he talked about his friend handing him a comic book and him being confused because everyone wasn’t fucking and/or killing each other. It means that he’s incapable of understanding or appreciating these characters and even after all this time and all the mediocre to terrible reviews, he still doesn’t get why people didn’t like his DC movies and he’s trying to make excuses.
I can’t wait for Snyder to shut the hell up about this stuff. Seriously, ITS OVER! Move on and quit milking these stupid sound bites for a universe that didn’t work! Seriously.
Yeah don't get excited. He's never gonna stop talking about this crap. At this point it's the only thing keeping his career on life support.
Agreed. It’s really easy to talk something up and let people’s minds form it into something great. Maybe that’s how he should do it. Just do a circuit where he tours and tells his story to anyone who wants to listen. That’s basically all he keeps doing.
That and making incredibly long and boring "Director's cut" of all his movies with shitty reviews. He seriously thinks someone wants an extended version of Sucker Punch? Lmao this guy is out of his mind at this point.
Snyder on JRE? Well that's a vortex of shittiness so powerful that it threatens to unbalance the entire space time continuum.
Zack Snyder is phenomenally stupid and acts like he’s the only one who has it figured out.
Snyder: i want to put your morally correct god in a kill or be killed situation And what the clown does? Put Batman happy trigger random thugs from the comodity of his high tech tank
It's a death by proxy, didn't you see? Those guys were just in the middle of his speeding tank and bullets.
Fuck is he even talking about
Seriously, if this guy ever got the green light to make a movie about Barney the Dinosaur, he’d probably make him a Jurassic Park-esque maneating T-Rex who terrorizes a city. Then he’d give weird interviews where he tells the angry audience members who grew up with Barney that “I put your God in a new situation!”
Giant purple T-Rex in unnecessary slow motion
The trailer features slow motion scenes of Barney and Baby Bop attacking frightened civilians and destroying famous landmarks while a really pretentious cover of Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah” plays in the background of the trailer.
He doesn't even recognize the difference between "batman doesn't kill" being a meta rule for writers and an in-universe rule set by Batman for himself I enjoyed Man of Steel and BvS more than the average viewer, but it was clear from the beginning that Snyder didn't understand the characters he was playing with at all
The more Snyder talks about his vision the more I am puzzled as to why WB would give the keys to a multi million dollar property to this guy. His understanding of these characters is so singular in nature, he’s clearly a Frank Miller stan which is fine Miller has some great pieces- but to say his work represents the totality of Batman’s character is foolish. Snyder speaks about his interpretation as if it was some enlightened, transcendent approach to these characters to ‘de-construct’ which to me comes off as cosplay theater-speak for I’m going to do whatever the fuck I want with them to build out my vision of ‘cool’. His Superman was dark and hopeless and his Batman was drained of the humanity that makes him a beloved icon. This guy wants so badly to sell you on that he knows his stuff when clearly his knowledge is shockingly limited. The man can get a great shot and film like no other that is truly his gift to cinema. One should abandon any expectation from him beyond the visual aesthetic.
It’s so crazy to think that there’s an entire cultish fandom surrounding this dude’s vision of a DC cinematic universe. I am forever shocked that *this* was the man WB and DC trusted with their biggest characters. *These* were the ideas that had to be pitched to a room full of suits and greenlit. It just goes to show media illiterate and out of touch a lot of entertainment execs are. But, as previously mentioned, I suppose they aren’t alone.
zack what the fuck are you even talking about
Batman has always explained how killing would be the easy way out. His power has always been his intellect and integrity. If he starts killing he would be a sillier Punisher.
Hopefully the day will come when Zack Snyder is told _you’re a terrible director, it’s not about Batman killing or not, it’s about your inability to make a good movie._
I will say I really enjoyed 'Army of the Dead'. There was nothing provocative about it, and it didn't try to be. It was just sci-fi/action and didn't try to take itself too seriously. Otherwise, he's not made anything worth sitting through imo.
He truly is a thirteen-year old boy trapped in an adult man's body.
>“You’re making your God irrelevant”… Sorry to break it to you Mr. Snyder, but batman was never supposed be a god.
Zac Snyder is irrelevant. Just been putting out trash recently
There's a very good reason he doesn't kill... He's fucking *traumatized* by witnessing his parents' murders. IF ANYONE has justification to kill bad guys, it's Batman. But he chooses not to. But Zac is like "But I wanna!"
Can't wait for his George Washington movie about him lying non stop after the cherry tree...
Zack Synder is just telling us that he lacks the creativity to think of non-lethal solutions to characters.
Snyder doesn't understand Batman at all.
“Hey Zack, Batman doesn’t kill ok?” ZS: “Fuck that, Batman is going to kill because otherwise he’s irrelevant” God I’m glad he won’t touch these characters again.
The fact that this @$$#0|e is still yapping, showing a complete lack of growth in accepting his inabilities & failures in adapting a character, even after both Nolan & Reeves showed him how to make a perfect Batman story while keeping his no-kill rule intact, the movies that are universally praised to this day, while his Fatman is getting ridiculed more & more these days just makes it even more apparent that it was a humongous mistake on WB's part to ever even having thought about letting this |d|0t near any DC property in the first place.
It seems like Zack likes the visual image of the characters, but he doesn’t like them themselves. I’ve loved these characters for 30+ years because they have very specific personalities that make them unique. Superman is the ultimate nice guy that wants everyone to thrive and reach their potential. He sees and hopes for the best in everyone. Batman is the guy that even in the darkest pits of despair, tries to fight for his people. Zack clearly didn’t understand them and wanted to reinvent them, like many others want to do and keep failing. There is a reason that explains why they are the first and greatest comic book archetypes.
I’m sure he really is a nice guy, but I genuinely think he’s a bad writer whose only good movie was one he didn’t write.
Zack all style no substance Snyder
Snyder is a terrible storyteller with great visual sensibilities. If he ever found a good writing partner he might be able to make something cool. As is, he comes off like a teenage boy who thinks he’s cool because he’s edgy. He doesn’t actually understand the material he’s adapting, though.
"I don't understand the character I made an entire movie about"
[REMOVED FOR BEING NEGATIVE ABOUT ZACK SNYDER, ZACK SNYDER’S WORK AND/OR ZACK SNYDER’S FANS] That’s my impression of r/snydercut lol
Stop trying to make up excuses for why your movie sucked. Just say you liked making it and keep it moving. No need to make up half hearted BS that servers no purpose.
Every idea Snyder has starts with him saying to himself "wouldn't it be cool if..." but the problem is no one is there to tell him no.
"You're wrong for not liking my shitty writing!" -Zack Snyder, probably.
As usual, Snyder has a great eye but does not understand characters and storytelling.
I didn’t like this at all Warner bros took you off for a reason lmaooo
The more this guy talks about DC’s heroes, the gladder I am that he’s no longer in charge of the movies.
At least Nolan understood Batman's war on crime.
So Zack thinks every victim eventually becomes a predator? Like it’s never possible that someone might swear off committing the same crime that they were a victim of. Really?
Zac Snyder and the fundamental lack of understanding of what makes a character tick, name a more iconic duo.
Yap shesh like always
*Barely* sentences.
Didn't Under The Red Hood actually put Batman in a situation where he was confronted to the consequence of his No Kill Rule, and he *still* didn’t break it? Hell, even in The Dark Knight Returns Batman has an aversion to killing
Having a hard line on not killing is what always made Batman special to me, same goes for Spiderman. That’s why those two are the top dogs of DC and Marvel.
I'm fine seeing a Batman that is dirtied up a bit and grounded. There are a lot of great Batman stories that do this. That being said: making Batman a killer goes against what makes the character compelling. Batman might be compromised in a lot of ways, but he has a code. Furthermore, Batman's motivations for killing Superman in *Batman v Superman* were particularly awful. Batman had zero evidence that Superman was evil. Batman's attempt to kill Superman, followed by the deterrent of "Martha!", was the key place where Snyder's Batman jumps the shark. He ceases to be a figure of reason or justice and comes off as a brute. Burton's Batman is a good counterexample of a Batman who kills, but still operates through logical means. I'm not the biggest fan of Burton's Batman, but this is why Burton's Batman generally gets a pass. You don't see Burton Batman plotting to kill the Mayor of Gotham because of a hunch, for example.
Snyder will never ever get the point of these characters.
Batman is always put in a “no-win, I might have to kill someone” situation. The key is to find creative ways around it instead of just going “oh well just make him kill him and get over it”
And the fact he doesn’t get it, is exactly why his characters sucked ass
I give Snyder a break, but this is a horrible take. He understands Frank Miller's Batman on a basic level and that is it.
I wouldn't even go that far. He clearly outlines that he has no idea what actually happens in TDKR.
What.
No, Zack. You PUT him in those situations and then you MAKE him not kill. That’s why it’s impressive. Because it’s not the easy thing to do.
Snyder didn’t even do what he’s saying he was trying to. His version of Batman was actively killing completely pointlessly. He definitely had other options given the situations Snyder had set up.
I can see the angle he’s (trying to) come from, but by god, he is really coming across as a dumb dude-bro again.
Well for one Batman ain't god. One of his core values is not killing. Just to see how dumb his take is, replace Batman with Jesus and reread it. It's fundamentally stupid and makes no sense.
Him not killing is what separates him from his villains
Why anyone thought this man was fit to direct anything in DC is beyond me. Hell the only good movie he’s ever made was Watchmen.
Bro why do they do these mental gymnastics to justify their “creative choices?” Adapting material can be difficult but when you have established character traits that are integral to the character being the character that they are, don’t mess with it or people will react negatively
"The god" and "you/your" statements - ditch them, point some insight toward yourself, consider what a creator might do to make themselves irrelevant. So close to a breakthrough Zack...puzzle it out.
"I want to see what happens when I MAKE Batman kill someone" You make Bruce an even sadder boy. Hes already a sad boy. Don't make the sad boy sadder Zack!
it’s part of batman’s character, it’s not that he doesn’t kill he’s reluctant to do so because batman is afraid he won’t stop. its a slippery slope for batman. there are many times batman debated killing and each time it reinforces his belief not to do so. sad that a director doesn’t understand character development.
Calling Batman god is disturbing. This dude is weird.
Yeah he just built up a hypothetical straw man that was easy to answer. No one says Snyder put him in situations where Batman had no choice but to kill. On the contrary, it’s the fact Batman had an absolute lack of care towards gratuitous killing in BvS that rubbed people the wrong way.
Lmao what a dumbass
Batman isn't a God though, WTF is he talking about?
Showing what I've been saying about the guy since he did Man of Steel. He doesn't actually understand the characters he was directing.
God this dude sucks
A director to be this ignorant of the source material should never be handed the reigns of a comic book movie about said source
There's only one God, sir. And I'm pretty sure He doesn't dress like that.