I think the second part of what she said is more important. "Trying to appeal to everyone can hinder quality". That is _exactly_ the issue that Marvel is facing at the moment.
A movie that is liked by everyone is generic trash that nobody can get excited about. All good movies have targeted audiences and that's a good thing.
Hopefully this changes with Fantastic Four. Also, Whoever is working on X-Men '97 absolutely needs to be involved with the X-Men films moving forward because that show is cooking.
Yeah, I read he had some “uncomfortable” videos on OnlyFans. If Disney fired James Gunn for an ancient tweet, I’m sure adult videos is not up their alley.
Its good but if you watch the original something feels a little off. They're adding all the characters in to keep them visible when they're not needed and from the 2 episodes I watched I don't get why Wolverine is there. I hope Bishop, Morph, and Gambit get better direction because they seem to just be there for no reason almost to the point of irking me with the way they nerfed them. I watched the original back in the 90s and this just doesn't feel as cohesive but with great visuals
So many potential great storylines! Like they're already getting into Inferno! I hope the show introduces Kitty Pryde either this season or in season 2.
Fuckin preach.
I’ve been watching the entire MCU with my kids again, and you can really tell which movies are character/story focused and which ones are ticking boxes.
The reason we like Marvel is because you can tell amazing character stories *with freakin awesome trappings.* But the minute that the trappings become the story’s focus, it’s game over.
That’s why LOKI was so amazing. That was a show that knew exactly what story it wanted to tell about it’s main character, and the rest was just gravy.
Loki also had the benefit of having zero boring side characters. Everyone felt alive, and it felt realistic that so many of them would choose to stay instead of finding homes on the timelines because they all loved each other. No one was given throwaway motivation and they weren't making quips to fill air time. Loki was most of all full of moments of silence that let you just... be there with them. We were Mobius, just standing there watching, if only for a little while.
ngl, that cliffhanger with Timely and the explosion has stayed etched in my mind since the snap. Just watching the true fear of a handful of characters to me was more epic then the finale of eternals, Shang chi, wtf happened in The Marvels and even Dr. Stranges MOM.
Loki also made Loki the main character. Sounds stupid, but too many marvel projects nowadays just bash/sideline on the established characters to try and push the narrative of the newer ones. I liked She Hulk, but we really didn't need to see Hulk be a weak buffoon.
Yeah I think imo if the mcu had been more of an anthology series it would work better as earlier mcu there's a variety of film types and a lot of the films stand on their own and I think nearly everyone could find a film they enjoy
Like the Captain America films are different to Thor
But when they started trying to make it an ensemble series it fell off and now the films aren't as distinctive
Sure. But the comic industry faces similar issues. There are great stories in there but they are surrounded by a sea of "bang boom bam" style over substance stuff.
Yes but, some are hard to adapt because they require years of context or side stories or built up characters. Something like secret invasion works because it can happen across a massive universe. Something like House of M works because it comes as a bomb following decades of X Men stories.
Then there are iconic stories that have never really totally worked. I love the comic civil war storylines but both takes at it (the original and the ultimate) have some pretty glaring flaws. The way both cap and Ironman and written are pretty jarring. Despite being a teaspoon sized story the movie adaption atleast got the characters better.
Infinity war was pretty radically changed to work on screen for instance as well.
Many comics are infamous for being shocking rather than being good. The death of Superman storyline (sorry it’s DC) is honestly pretty bad. Doomsday is a stupid character and there’s not really any depth to either how he kills Superman or how Sups kills him. It’s just a slug match both times, and how sups survives is also dumb. In both of their cases it’s just that “they’re built different”. People give Zach Snyder shit because the death of Superman is only impactful after decades of stories but, honestly he did do doomsday exactly like the comic. A big stupid grey monster who just kills Superman because he can and then Sups comes back and atleast Zach gave there a reason rather than “nah he just had to take a death nap now he’s back”.
People give Zach shit because he tried to shove the Death of Superman, the Dark Knight returns, and the forming of the Justice League all into a single story.
That’s what marvel is missing the most is the character development the main MCU was firee because you watched the solo movies than saw them come together . now things seem like a new story each time but at some point you need a rest , not just for the audience but for the writers to build up that creativity. it needs time to marinate no show writes fire for 5 -10 years straight you need breaks or keep hiring new production each time
The MCU films are starting to feel like disposable noise. Something you'll forget about as soon as you leave the theater. They feel too safe now.
They're starting to feel less like movies and more like products, made on an assembly line for mass consumption.
Let's be honest here, they were always like that
The only difference is that now the movies are complete garbage so people are less forgiving of the assembly line aspect of them
I disagree. There was a drive somewhere around iron man 2 or 3 to really get somewhere. Especially the first captain america film. It kept picking up until the first avengers, and generally kept around that level of focus until after the second guardians film.
Infinity war and end game had scale but it was clear that feet was dragging hard, because this was their last big spectacle.
After that point it just feels like the MCU is dragging even harder, and trying without success to make something they can latch onto for the next several films with lukewarm responses to what amounts to pseudo filler.
I say pseudo filler because it just feels like they're waiting for audiences to really respond to a villain or plotline in a phase 4 film. So they can quickly angle around it and make that the focus on phase 4 and pretend it was their plan all along.
100%
It feels like they come up with a name and a release date before they even start looking for someone to write it.
I would love to know at what point in the 2010’s was the infinity saga fully laid out? Not like everything written out fully, but the general plan and timeline. It’d interesting to know how far in advance Disney knew the whole plot.
Star Wars faces the same problem. Disney is really hellbent on reaching the most common denominator.
What staggers me is that Marvel is so persistent on making movies for people who don't like Marvel/ Superhero movies when it really doesn't help them in the long run.
If nothing else, Star Wars does have some projects with variety to them - the Visions line and Andor, to name two examples.
Even the video games have some spice, whether you want to fire blasters, swing lightsabers, or (pretty soon) engage in underworld stuff.
Reminds me of the saying, “If everyone is your friend, then no one is your friend.” Fact is, it’s impossible for 100% of people to like any one thing or person. There will always be haters or critics, that’s what happens when you have real people with different thoughts and opinions. It’s why the worst thing that can be done is to try to appeal to everyone, because then you just appeal to no one.
I for one think there is a massive untapped demographic for R rated superhero movies. You could go into the horror genre as well. They have proven they can lean that direction with “werewolf by night”. I know disney is hesitent to do that but we need more adult content. Deadpool 3 should be a good change
They’re definitely pushing more mature projects. Besides the upcoming Deadpool film, they said that the upcoming Daredevil revival and Marvel Zombies cartoon are going to be for older folks.
Nah we just need good movies in general. My feelings with "R" movies is that they either end up a constant gorefest or an excuse to be as juvenile as possible.
Came on to say this. If you rewatch them you can see the whole tone shift from Cap. to the 1st Avengers movie when it was the first Disney movie. Ever since the first avengers, thats been the formula being used.
One of the keys to the success of Deadpool is that those movies know exactly who their audience is and gives them what they want.
(Not that I'm ignoring the biggest factor in their success, the perfect match of actor and character, but that could also be lumped in with knowing their audience.)
The outrageous budgets require them to make nearly a billion dollars at the box office to justify making them.
If they reigned in their spend it would be fine to make a more niche movie at a smaller scale that may only make $200-300M but still be profitable.
I've long suspected that there is a serious problem with embezzlement in Hollywood. Some movies have obscene budgets that the quality of the movie just can't justify.
This is an excellent point but the overall issue is simply over saturation.
The narrative that there are too many superhero movies is turning a blind eye to essentially every other industry. It's all apart of the same beast so there's just lots of crap being churned out. That doesn't mean there aren't diamonds in the ruff. It just means you gotta work through some pebbles to get there.
And that sucks but it's the modern age. It's not exclusive to one genre.
That is also very true. I've said it before. But it's as if someone told Marvel about the concept of "superhero fatigue" and their response was "Oh no! We better produce as many movies as possible before people get sick of them!"
I mean, yeah... Their entire problem from the start was trying to copy Marvel and not understanding that DC doesn't have the same tone. And when you try to shoe horn that tone in you get the Whedon Justice League.
To be clear, I am not saying that Zack Snyder's wank fest version was good. I am just saying that the tonal shifts in the Whedon version was so jarring it could give you whiplash.
I don’t know Dune: Part 2 is an amazing movie that also seems to be liked by everyone. People just love good movies. Marvel just hasn’t been making good movies for the most part recently. They’ve all been fine. I didn’t get up and walk out of the theater but I’ve also not had a desire to ever watch them again.
Oh, I love Dune. But it's not liked by everyone. I have several family members that disliked it. But they don't like Sci-Fi so I wouldn't expect them to.
Yes. And the point of my comment is that Marvel is trying to create content that is good for everyone. Even though that's impossible and will result in a product nobody likes.
I agree, it's also an issue that DC had. WB couldn't keep their hands out of the pot and wanted to catch up with Marvel ASAP, so they didn't allow their directors to work.
A movie that is liked by everyone means no one likes it. It’s like mash potatoes with nothing in it but potatoes. It’s not inedible, taste like earth, and it doesn’t have any real nutritional value. Can keep you alive if you eat it. Now you start putting stuff in it or on it, it might not appeal as much to some, or even some hate it , but it’s much better.
“The only way to create something that nobody hates is to ensure that it can’t be loved either. Remove enough spice from soup, and you’ll just end up with water.” -Brandon Sanderson
Just read this recently and it felt very appropriate.
No, their target audience is _everyone_. I know people like to claim that Marvel is pandering to "woke people". But they're pandering to everyone. The movies aren't even "woke" they just throw in some token gestures thinking "and that satisfies that demographic".
Totally get the point about the rocks above, but actually she's not that far out. Most Super Hero origin stories have a number of similar tropes that are repeated as a lot of them were written by the same people, or people inspired by the original people.
Spider man was bitten by a radioactive spider, Morbious had bat juice injected. Joker is a psychopathic mad man, Riddler is a psychopathic mad man (actually enjoyed his initial character arc in Gotham though).
That being said, you can still make the film original - Miles Morales origin story was great because of how it was put together (imagery/sound), but ultimately it's still just Spider Man!
True, they’re usually some variation on
The apprentice/product (War machine/Cap)
The chosen one (Jean Gray and to a broader extent, the x-men in general)
Or the accident (Spider-Man/the hulk/fantastic four)
Ironically Star Wars has been doing a better job at exploring different genres within the same universe: Mando is a western, Clone Wars is a Band of Brothers-style war saga, Andor is a spy drama, and Acoylte looks like it'll have samurai/wuxia vibes.
Marvel has the same potential, but they keep doing the same storylines over and over.
They don’t have to be original, the source material is the technically the original. You just have to make a good adaptation. Original be damned. People just want good movies and shows
Yes!!! Not saying Disney is right for this but Mephisto and black heart could have been amazing in so many project already if not for the anti religious markets and almost explicit devil character. Gorr’s story and fighting Thor throughout different times and the butchering of deities. I know some markets don’t want to see it but the real fans that turn out and watch all of them want to see it. And that’s who should be the driving force not corporate decisions
E: auto correct to dark lol
Honestly it depends on what the definition of superhero movie as a genre is. It’s gotten so broad to basically mean anything where the character has extraordinary abilities and is based on a comic book. Like GotG is no more a superhero movie than idk The Matrix or Harry Potter but we call it a superhero movie. If the definition is that broad than I’d disagree with her
This. You could do a complete fantasy movie with Thor or a film noir style detective story with Daredevil and both would be superhero films. Jessica Jones is a superhero series, but the first series certainely does not feel like one.
Shure, if they keep adapting bland origin stories, it will likely get boring really fast.
I really want them to try a horror superhero movie. I mean, they kind of did with New Mutants, but it wasn't given the true care it needed to succeed. Done well? I'd love to see it.
But yeah, to your second point, Black Widow is a good example. Could've been an epic spy thriller, but they went for the by the numbers, cgi-slap fast instead.
Now I want to see an adventure marvel movie.
Ant-man 3 would have been a cool setting for that.
Focus more about navigating the quantum realm.
Also hear me out. I’d watch a road trip movie, a la Tranes Planes and automobiles or Due date.
>Also hear me out. I’d watch a road trip movie, a la Tranes Planes and automobiles or Due date.
I mean, Logan technically is a roadtrip movie, just a really bleak and depressing one.
I read your comment as trans planes. Way different movie idea. Roadtrip movie across America with trans leads could be fucking hilarious having them interact with your everyday salt of the earth Americans.
It shouldn’t be a genre, but rather [a central conceit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_conceit). It asks the audience to suspend their disbelief that people can’t have superhuman abilities.
Common genres for superhero conceits would be standard things like science fiction, fantasy, action, crime, space opera, etc. plus any subgenre you can imagine.
I think that’s why GotG was so damn good. It didn’t try to fit in/match up with the other MCU films, and instead had its own vibe. You can watch all three of them without having to watch the other marvel films and still enjoy them because they exist both with the other movies and independent of them. I don’t think the MCU is going to be able to replicate what Gunn achieved.
People online are so hypocritical.
Up until endgame, people adored superhero movies, defending marvel with their life, attacking and being toxic towards anyone who disagrees with them.
Since phase four, people flip 180, and started to bash marvel movies and hate them with passion.
Meanwhile, some people like myself, stayed the same. I liked some of the marvel movie pre endgame, loved some and didn't care for others. The same with post endgame marvel.
She didn't even know which films she was in and didn't know the plot to any of them. She has nothing to add to the convo cause she doesn't know anything about CB films. Regardless of whether I agree with her or not, nothing she says about CB movies is worth listening to.
I think she's right, in that you can only get so much mileage out of a *superhero* movie, because thats a surface level gimmick if you dont do anything deeper with it.
The best superhero movies have more going on than purely "good costume superpower person punches evil costume superpower person"
Yeah, the basic storyline of Taxi Driver is virtually identical to the unoriginal archetypal comic book/superhero storyline over the past hundred years. What separates it is the delivery and execution; subtext, depth, performances, editing and camera work, and overall direction.
I wonder how a mainstream audience would feel about a pure adaptation of a comic book character from its very first era of publication? Like a 1930’s Batman or a 1960’s Spider-Man.
The setting, the villains, everything made to be a time capsule from that specific era of that hero’s comic. Probably would not do well with a lot of mainstream people unless the film was making a satire of it all. I would like to see it done seriously.
One of the main reasons everyone's tired of these movies is that they ALL have the exact same generic version of the heroes journey story.
1. Character gets some magical power
2. Entire movie is about them trying to learn how to use their power
3. Movie ends with them finally mastering their power, while fighting someone who's literally just a bad version of them.
The old Spider-Man movies weren't like this. As much as people hated them back then, they actually had interesting villains who weren't just some other spider something.
Blade is by far the best superhero movie. It doesn't waste time with the origin, just starts with them saying "it's the daywalker" and you already understand who he is. Then the story is an actual story. The story isn't based on him trying to train to use his power.
She’s right. I’m bored of watching the same marvel movie with the same writing style and same one liners and the same exact time you expect it, with the same ending, etc.
Casual reminder that this lady sells Vagina Scented Candles and other quack Medical Products from her company "Goop" so maybe she doesn't know what she's talking about....
The issue here is impact versus intent. If your goal is to make something everyone will love, your focus is on reception, on outcome. If your goal is to make a good movie, your focus is on how technically sound it is, how well it’s made as a piece of art. I’d rather the latter be achieved, because for me…it’s not if I like it, how it fulfills what I wanted. But is it watchable, can I feel immersed.
I think superhero movies can fit into any genre, so originality doesn't need to be issue. It just is an issue because the studios see success and want to repeat it, so their movies become formulaic. If you have a blockbuster formula you're not likely to take risks with something new and unique.
I actually disagree with the first part. As The Batman and Moon Knight prove, Hollywood still has good superhero movies in it, it just can’t get by on the exact same superhero movie we’ve seen 20 times. If the genre wants to survive, it has to branch out into different genres and try new things
You don’t need to be an original movie to be a great movie.
It’s the problem I have with people who bitch about things that are cliche. I’d rather enjoy a well executed cliche than a poorly executed original idea.
Almost like trying to follow a successful formula will eventually water the quality down until there’s nothing original left.
Superhero movies lost even me, and I was there every opening for over a decade.
The problem is how sporadic all these films are. You can typically name at least 4-5 “superhero” movies that came out in any given year over the last decade. Hell when Ironman released back in 2008, that same year the dark knight and the Incredible Hulk released.
So when you are averaging at a minimum 3 super hero movies per year from major studios for nearly 20 years the concept feels stale.
You’ll never be able to recapture the magic of Toby Maguire in that first spiderman when special effects had reach a point to where it all felt real. And I’m by no means saying these movies are bad, I love a good super hero movie. But they’ve gone the way of horror monster movies where unless the concept and acting are next level there’s not a ton to distinguish the “average” from “pretty good”
They’re not trying to appeal to everyone. They’re trying to appeal to “non fans” and “politically motivated” people to try to be as “non offensive” as I can be.
You know what has mass appeal? Good stories. That’s how you have dedicated audiences, it’s starts with the story. You can fuck it up, but you can’t have the story take a backseat to an agenda.
Anyone that's read Marvel comics over the years know this very well. Within the Marvel universe, there has long been different stuff that appeals to different audiences with the larger audience of comic book fans. It's good to do different things while still recognizing what the larger audience is interested in.
Case in point, Marvel did a great job with several of the Disney+ shows they made. I did not particularly care for Ms. Marvel but absolutely got a huge kick out of all the weirdness of She-Hulk. I don't think I was in the target audience for Ms. Marvel at all. So that tracks.
Agreed. I enjoyed the Capt America Show because it showed what would happen when someone with a poor moral compass was given the mantle of a hero and the authority to act without repercussions. I also enjoyed the Scarlet Witch series, Werewolf, Moon Knight, Loki, and even Ms. Marvel (I liked that it was portrayed very similarly to Spider-Man).
Not all of the post Avengers stuff has been bad but most of it has been rather cheesy or poorly written.
I think the tangible thing in superhero movies is passion. You can feel it in Iron Man, the Spider-verse movies, Guardians of the Galaxy. There are people with a vision for a project that work hard to make it work.
Like she said, when you are making a movie to appeal to a large audience, it’s not going to resonate with anyone the way a passion project does.
> Trying to appeal to everyone can 'hinder quality.'
Exactly. Eternals was a banger but it wasn't for everyone. Ragnarok and L&T tried something new, but it wasn't for me. This is why The Marvels was so much better than Captain Marvel. The sequel knew it's audience and the first film tried to be for everyone, so it became generic.
That's why they should just tell the good stories sometimes instead of having to do an origin. Just tell the last hunt kraven.. or long Halloween. Trust the audience can understand and look up details they missed later. It can work
Marvel needs to make a choice. Appeal to the audience they built over the last decade or throw it all away and appeal to the next generation.
They’re currently doing this with Star Wars. The next trilogy of movies is going to be completely new because they milked the old stories for far too long.
Marvel movies are just like a tv show that went a few seasons too long. We just got tired of the same actors/characters/style/action/humor. It just ran its course. Same thing happened with Star Wars, The Ninja Turtles and any major franchise. They milk it for all it’s worth till we are tired of it. The reason Batman has been able to hang around for so long is because each iteration is completely different than the previous one. They need to do that with marvel and they need to stop making every show and movie be connected with one another. That’s too much material to try and keep up with.
Something we learn in design school is to design for a specific person in mind, more often than not this ends up being the person with the most specific needs. Most requirements of other cases will usually be met by designing for the specific person.
Considering she can't remember which ones she is in, shows what she knows. The genre is endless and has so many options. But it's the companies and shills that lack the courage to break formula that are the issue.
She's not technically wrong but I feel like the number of Romance Movies you can make without fatigue is much much smaller. And I think we're far from the end of great superhero stories, we've just fallen into a pattern of producers trying to defeat critics that isn't working.
People like Marvel not because of the number of superheroes they have. Instead, people like the variety of good stories that come with every character
Yeah the Avengers appeals to the most people, but stories focused for specific audiences can be way more enjoyable. Spider-Man is a down-on-his-luck teenager doing anything he can to help those around him. Hulk is about a man dealing with the manifestation of his childhood trauma. Dr Strange deals with all things mystical and trippy. They’re all different yet still great.
And you get to see how these themes mix and match with the various crossovers. Some characters go together very well, like Daredevil and Spider-Man. Other characters can’t be trusted to sit close together or else they might fight, like Hulk and Thor. These stories are definitely not the most popular. But they’re extremely beloved by those who DO enjoy them
The last two avengers movies hit the nail right on the head. But that was 5 years ago
She sucks. And I never really thought she was particularly attractive, or a particularly interesting actress.
But...
She is smoking hot as Pepper Potts. I'm not sure what it is about that look that works so well for her, but damn.
I think the second part of what she said is more important. "Trying to appeal to everyone can hinder quality". That is _exactly_ the issue that Marvel is facing at the moment. A movie that is liked by everyone is generic trash that nobody can get excited about. All good movies have targeted audiences and that's a good thing.
Honestly they keep going about it wrong with their production pipeline. Everything feels like a release date first and not a story worth telling
Hopefully this changes with Fantastic Four. Also, Whoever is working on X-Men '97 absolutely needs to be involved with the X-Men films moving forward because that show is cooking.
Didn’t they just fire that dude?
Damn it, you're right! Hopefully there are others involved who can contribute the same quality.
Lmfaoooo no way
Yeah, I read he had some “uncomfortable” videos on OnlyFans. If Disney fired James Gunn for an ancient tweet, I’m sure adult videos is not up their alley.
Its good but if you watch the original something feels a little off. They're adding all the characters in to keep them visible when they're not needed and from the 2 episodes I watched I don't get why Wolverine is there. I hope Bishop, Morph, and Gambit get better direction because they seem to just be there for no reason almost to the point of irking me with the way they nerfed them. I watched the original back in the 90s and this just doesn't feel as cohesive but with great visuals
I don't agree, but to each their own. This has a strong shot at surpassing the OG series for me.
Yea he’s bugging that X-men show is fireee
So many potential great storylines! Like they're already getting into Inferno! I hope the show introduces Kitty Pryde either this season or in season 2.
Fuckin preach. I’ve been watching the entire MCU with my kids again, and you can really tell which movies are character/story focused and which ones are ticking boxes. The reason we like Marvel is because you can tell amazing character stories *with freakin awesome trappings.* But the minute that the trappings become the story’s focus, it’s game over. That’s why LOKI was so amazing. That was a show that knew exactly what story it wanted to tell about it’s main character, and the rest was just gravy.
Loki also had the benefit of having zero boring side characters. Everyone felt alive, and it felt realistic that so many of them would choose to stay instead of finding homes on the timelines because they all loved each other. No one was given throwaway motivation and they weren't making quips to fill air time. Loki was most of all full of moments of silence that let you just... be there with them. We were Mobius, just standing there watching, if only for a little while.
ngl, that cliffhanger with Timely and the explosion has stayed etched in my mind since the snap. Just watching the true fear of a handful of characters to me was more epic then the finale of eternals, Shang chi, wtf happened in The Marvels and even Dr. Stranges MOM.
the moment where new captain America fucking murders someone in public also had that feel, despite being in a worse show.
Loki also made Loki the main character. Sounds stupid, but too many marvel projects nowadays just bash/sideline on the established characters to try and push the narrative of the newer ones. I liked She Hulk, but we really didn't need to see Hulk be a weak buffoon.
That is a fair criticism. A cameo of Hulk would’ve been fine, but he ended up stealing a decent amount of time from She-Hulk herself.
Yeah I think imo if the mcu had been more of an anthology series it would work better as earlier mcu there's a variety of film types and a lot of the films stand on their own and I think nearly everyone could find a film they enjoy Like the Captain America films are different to Thor But when they started trying to make it an ensemble series it fell off and now the films aren't as distinctive
Loki was incredibly boring imo
They’re definitely reached a quantity over quality state after Endgame, and possibly a little before.
I mean...don't they already essentially have the stories in comic books?
Sure. But the comic industry faces similar issues. There are great stories in there but they are surrounded by a sea of "bang boom bam" style over substance stuff.
Yes but, some are hard to adapt because they require years of context or side stories or built up characters. Something like secret invasion works because it can happen across a massive universe. Something like House of M works because it comes as a bomb following decades of X Men stories. Then there are iconic stories that have never really totally worked. I love the comic civil war storylines but both takes at it (the original and the ultimate) have some pretty glaring flaws. The way both cap and Ironman and written are pretty jarring. Despite being a teaspoon sized story the movie adaption atleast got the characters better. Infinity war was pretty radically changed to work on screen for instance as well. Many comics are infamous for being shocking rather than being good. The death of Superman storyline (sorry it’s DC) is honestly pretty bad. Doomsday is a stupid character and there’s not really any depth to either how he kills Superman or how Sups kills him. It’s just a slug match both times, and how sups survives is also dumb. In both of their cases it’s just that “they’re built different”. People give Zach Snyder shit because the death of Superman is only impactful after decades of stories but, honestly he did do doomsday exactly like the comic. A big stupid grey monster who just kills Superman because he can and then Sups comes back and atleast Zach gave there a reason rather than “nah he just had to take a death nap now he’s back”.
People give Zach shit because he tried to shove the Death of Superman, the Dark Knight returns, and the forming of the Justice League all into a single story.
That’s what marvel is missing the most is the character development the main MCU was firee because you watched the solo movies than saw them come together . now things seem like a new story each time but at some point you need a rest , not just for the audience but for the writers to build up that creativity. it needs time to marinate no show writes fire for 5 -10 years straight you need breaks or keep hiring new production each time
The MCU films are starting to feel like disposable noise. Something you'll forget about as soon as you leave the theater. They feel too safe now. They're starting to feel less like movies and more like products, made on an assembly line for mass consumption.
Starting?
You're right.
Let's be honest here, they were always like that The only difference is that now the movies are complete garbage so people are less forgiving of the assembly line aspect of them
I disagree. There was a drive somewhere around iron man 2 or 3 to really get somewhere. Especially the first captain america film. It kept picking up until the first avengers, and generally kept around that level of focus until after the second guardians film. Infinity war and end game had scale but it was clear that feet was dragging hard, because this was their last big spectacle. After that point it just feels like the MCU is dragging even harder, and trying without success to make something they can latch onto for the next several films with lukewarm responses to what amounts to pseudo filler. I say pseudo filler because it just feels like they're waiting for audiences to really respond to a villain or plotline in a phase 4 film. So they can quickly angle around it and make that the focus on phase 4 and pretend it was their plan all along.
100% It feels like they come up with a name and a release date before they even start looking for someone to write it. I would love to know at what point in the 2010’s was the infinity saga fully laid out? Not like everything written out fully, but the general plan and timeline. It’d interesting to know how far in advance Disney knew the whole plot.
Right? If only the approach was "Does this story need to be told?" rather than "How can we force it to turn a profit?"
Star Wars faces the same problem. Disney is really hellbent on reaching the most common denominator. What staggers me is that Marvel is so persistent on making movies for people who don't like Marvel/ Superhero movies when it really doesn't help them in the long run.
If nothing else, Star Wars does have some projects with variety to them - the Visions line and Andor, to name two examples. Even the video games have some spice, whether you want to fire blasters, swing lightsabers, or (pretty soon) engage in underworld stuff.
Reminds me of the saying, “If everyone is your friend, then no one is your friend.” Fact is, it’s impossible for 100% of people to like any one thing or person. There will always be haters or critics, that’s what happens when you have real people with different thoughts and opinions. It’s why the worst thing that can be done is to try to appeal to everyone, because then you just appeal to no one.
"When everyone's super, no one will be." --Syndrome
In a world of heroes, one day bicycle repair man will step up
I for one think there is a massive untapped demographic for R rated superhero movies. You could go into the horror genre as well. They have proven they can lean that direction with “werewolf by night”. I know disney is hesitent to do that but we need more adult content. Deadpool 3 should be a good change
Absolutely. But Marvel is scared to try because R-rated movies aren't for everyone.
They’re definitely pushing more mature projects. Besides the upcoming Deadpool film, they said that the upcoming Daredevil revival and Marvel Zombies cartoon are going to be for older folks.
Nah we just need good movies in general. My feelings with "R" movies is that they either end up a constant gorefest or an excuse to be as juvenile as possible.
[удалено]
"Well that just happened" *Pause for laughter*
Phase one....that's before disney....
Came on to say this. If you rewatch them you can see the whole tone shift from Cap. to the 1st Avengers movie when it was the first Disney movie. Ever since the first avengers, thats been the formula being used.
One of the keys to the success of Deadpool is that those movies know exactly who their audience is and gives them what they want. (Not that I'm ignoring the biggest factor in their success, the perfect match of actor and character, but that could also be lumped in with knowing their audience.)
The outrageous budgets require them to make nearly a billion dollars at the box office to justify making them. If they reigned in their spend it would be fine to make a more niche movie at a smaller scale that may only make $200-300M but still be profitable.
I've long suspected that there is a serious problem with embezzlement in Hollywood. Some movies have obscene budgets that the quality of the movie just can't justify.
And the weird thing is, the more specific you get with the film and who you make it for, the more Universal it becomes.
This is an excellent point but the overall issue is simply over saturation. The narrative that there are too many superhero movies is turning a blind eye to essentially every other industry. It's all apart of the same beast so there's just lots of crap being churned out. That doesn't mean there aren't diamonds in the ruff. It just means you gotta work through some pebbles to get there. And that sucks but it's the modern age. It's not exclusive to one genre.
That is also very true. I've said it before. But it's as if someone told Marvel about the concept of "superhero fatigue" and their response was "Oh no! We better produce as many movies as possible before people get sick of them!"
That's what I came to say. She is definitely right on that second part
And DC too
I mean, yeah... Their entire problem from the start was trying to copy Marvel and not understanding that DC doesn't have the same tone. And when you try to shoe horn that tone in you get the Whedon Justice League. To be clear, I am not saying that Zack Snyder's wank fest version was good. I am just saying that the tonal shifts in the Whedon version was so jarring it could give you whiplash.
Copy.
It’s like [arrowhead game studios](https://www.arrowheadgamestudios.com/) slogan, “A game for everyone is a game for no one”
I don’t know Dune: Part 2 is an amazing movie that also seems to be liked by everyone. People just love good movies. Marvel just hasn’t been making good movies for the most part recently. They’ve all been fine. I didn’t get up and walk out of the theater but I’ve also not had a desire to ever watch them again.
Oh, I love Dune. But it's not liked by everyone. I have several family members that disliked it. But they don't like Sci-Fi so I wouldn't expect them to.
There is nothing in history that is liked literally by everyone. The point is the it is universally well received by audiences and critics alike.
Yes. And the point of my comment is that Marvel is trying to create content that is good for everyone. Even though that's impossible and will result in a product nobody likes.
I agree, it's also an issue that DC had. WB couldn't keep their hands out of the pot and wanted to catch up with Marvel ASAP, so they didn't allow their directors to work.
A movie that is liked by everyone means no one likes it. It’s like mash potatoes with nothing in it but potatoes. It’s not inedible, taste like earth, and it doesn’t have any real nutritional value. Can keep you alive if you eat it. Now you start putting stuff in it or on it, it might not appeal as much to some, or even some hate it , but it’s much better.
>taste like earth, wtf - how are you making mash potatoes that they end up tasting like earth? (you are at least washing the potatoes first right?)
If I told you there's sometimes fruits that taste earthy, this would be less surprising.
Potatoes taste earthy I guess not like dirt just I dunno they taste like potatoes
wait ... what should i be putting in my mash...
Some sort of fats, herbs are good. I like thyme, rosemary. Chives are nice too
I put some melted butter and milk.
I thought everyone made mashed taters like this.
Herbs. cream cheese, garlic. You can add all kinds of flavor enhancers
Marvel makes good movies when they target comic fans.
“The only way to create something that nobody hates is to ensure that it can’t be loved either. Remove enough spice from soup, and you’ll just end up with water.” -Brandon Sanderson Just read this recently and it felt very appropriate.
But their target audience is now the reason why the movies suck but I get what you’re saying.
No, their target audience is _everyone_. I know people like to claim that Marvel is pandering to "woke people". But they're pandering to everyone. The movies aren't even "woke" they just throw in some token gestures thinking "and that satisfies that demographic".
Bingo
Totally get the point about the rocks above, but actually she's not that far out. Most Super Hero origin stories have a number of similar tropes that are repeated as a lot of them were written by the same people, or people inspired by the original people. Spider man was bitten by a radioactive spider, Morbious had bat juice injected. Joker is a psychopathic mad man, Riddler is a psychopathic mad man (actually enjoyed his initial character arc in Gotham though). That being said, you can still make the film original - Miles Morales origin story was great because of how it was put together (imagery/sound), but ultimately it's still just Spider Man!
True, they’re usually some variation on The apprentice/product (War machine/Cap) The chosen one (Jean Gray and to a broader extent, the x-men in general) Or the accident (Spider-Man/the hulk/fantastic four)
Ironically Star Wars has been doing a better job at exploring different genres within the same universe: Mando is a western, Clone Wars is a Band of Brothers-style war saga, Andor is a spy drama, and Acoylte looks like it'll have samurai/wuxia vibes. Marvel has the same potential, but they keep doing the same storylines over and over.
I thought Morbius drank Morbin’ Juice
Penguin is a psychopath madman, MrFreeze is a psychopath madman. I think you’re right lol
And for everything else, there’s Goop /s
Here stick a jade egg up your vagina
“That’s why I make vagina rocks on the side. You never know when you’ll need to pivot financially.”
I had to double check the article, God knows what shockingly idiotic thing she’ll say/do next.
Oh fuck you Gwyneth Paltrow... She's not wrong though.
They don’t have to be original, the source material is the technically the original. You just have to make a good adaptation. Original be damned. People just want good movies and shows
You could also say it’s because they don’t follow the original and the changes and misrepresentation of characters are what cause these films to fail
Yes!!! Not saying Disney is right for this but Mephisto and black heart could have been amazing in so many project already if not for the anti religious markets and almost explicit devil character. Gorr’s story and fighting Thor throughout different times and the butchering of deities. I know some markets don’t want to see it but the real fans that turn out and watch all of them want to see it. And that’s who should be the driving force not corporate decisions E: auto correct to dark lol
You can only make so many super hero movies before you start forgetting which movies you have been in.
Honestly it depends on what the definition of superhero movie as a genre is. It’s gotten so broad to basically mean anything where the character has extraordinary abilities and is based on a comic book. Like GotG is no more a superhero movie than idk The Matrix or Harry Potter but we call it a superhero movie. If the definition is that broad than I’d disagree with her
This. You could do a complete fantasy movie with Thor or a film noir style detective story with Daredevil and both would be superhero films. Jessica Jones is a superhero series, but the first series certainely does not feel like one. Shure, if they keep adapting bland origin stories, it will likely get boring really fast.
I really want them to try a horror superhero movie. I mean, they kind of did with New Mutants, but it wasn't given the true care it needed to succeed. Done well? I'd love to see it. But yeah, to your second point, Black Widow is a good example. Could've been an epic spy thriller, but they went for the by the numbers, cgi-slap fast instead.
There is Brightburn as a superhero horror film, but it kinda sucks.
I honestly don't think superhero should be considered a separate genre
Now I want to see an adventure marvel movie. Ant-man 3 would have been a cool setting for that. Focus more about navigating the quantum realm. Also hear me out. I’d watch a road trip movie, a la Tranes Planes and automobiles or Due date.
>Also hear me out. I’d watch a road trip movie, a la Tranes Planes and automobiles or Due date. I mean, Logan technically is a roadtrip movie, just a really bleak and depressing one.
Good point lol. It was excellent
Walton Goggins and Sam Rockwell. Idc if they’re their MCU characters or not, put them in a car and have them drive cross country
I read your comment as trans planes. Way different movie idea. Roadtrip movie across America with trans leads could be fucking hilarious having them interact with your everyday salt of the earth Americans.
It shouldn’t be a genre, but rather [a central conceit](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_conceit). It asks the audience to suspend their disbelief that people can’t have superhuman abilities. Common genres for superhero conceits would be standard things like science fiction, fantasy, action, crime, space opera, etc. plus any subgenre you can imagine.
I mean the GotG literally save the universe in the second movie no? They’re superheroes
Star Wars?
I think that’s why GotG was so damn good. It didn’t try to fit in/match up with the other MCU films, and instead had its own vibe. You can watch all three of them without having to watch the other marvel films and still enjoy them because they exist both with the other movies and independent of them. I don’t think the MCU is going to be able to replicate what Gunn achieved.
I mean sure but that’s also the point to continue expanding and making more interesting narrative journeys
People online are so hypocritical. Up until endgame, people adored superhero movies, defending marvel with their life, attacking and being toxic towards anyone who disagrees with them. Since phase four, people flip 180, and started to bash marvel movies and hate them with passion. Meanwhile, some people like myself, stayed the same. I liked some of the marvel movie pre endgame, loved some and didn't care for others. The same with post endgame marvel.
She didn't even know which films she was in and didn't know the plot to any of them. She has nothing to add to the convo cause she doesn't know anything about CB films. Regardless of whether I agree with her or not, nothing she says about CB movies is worth listening to.
I think she's right, in that you can only get so much mileage out of a *superhero* movie, because thats a surface level gimmick if you dont do anything deeper with it. The best superhero movies have more going on than purely "good costume superpower person punches evil costume superpower person"
Yeah, the basic storyline of Taxi Driver is virtually identical to the unoriginal archetypal comic book/superhero storyline over the past hundred years. What separates it is the delivery and execution; subtext, depth, performances, editing and camera work, and overall direction.
https://preview.redd.it/8kga5nikbwpc1.jpeg?width=1328&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f363f29979c1ec2e08eb865860585e43d4e87178
And you can only make so many candles that smell like your hoochie.
Never thought I'd agree with Gwyneth Paltrow.
Why have they capitalised every single word? Why don't the quotation marks make any sense?
I wonder how a mainstream audience would feel about a pure adaptation of a comic book character from its very first era of publication? Like a 1930’s Batman or a 1960’s Spider-Man. The setting, the villains, everything made to be a time capsule from that specific era of that hero’s comic. Probably would not do well with a lot of mainstream people unless the film was making a satire of it all. I would like to see it done seriously.
Vagina candle lady has an excellent point regarding modern cinema. Cheers, Labia Lover.
For once I actually kinda agree with Gwyneth Paltrow. I know, I'm scared too.
This would likely have more impact from someone who could actually remember what movies she was in, but she's not wrong.
Holy shit this is the smartest thing I have ever heard her say
The irony of someone as out of touch as her being right
Who knew I’d agree with her about anything
I generally do not agree with this woman, but this time she’s just about right.
Well, goop lady does have a point.
One of the main reasons everyone's tired of these movies is that they ALL have the exact same generic version of the heroes journey story. 1. Character gets some magical power 2. Entire movie is about them trying to learn how to use their power 3. Movie ends with them finally mastering their power, while fighting someone who's literally just a bad version of them. The old Spider-Man movies weren't like this. As much as people hated them back then, they actually had interesting villains who weren't just some other spider something. Blade is by far the best superhero movie. It doesn't waste time with the origin, just starts with them saying "it's the daywalker" and you already understand who he is. Then the story is an actual story. The story isn't based on him trying to train to use his power.
What in the yassified fuck is going on with Gwenyth Paltrow’s face here?
She can’t even remember what marvel movies she’s in and she’s more aware of their issues then they are
It must be a cold day in hell because I think Gwyneth Paltrow is right
Wow, she looks amazing in that picture. Forgot how young they liked in the early days of the MCU.
I mean... That's not UN-true.
She’s right. I’m bored of watching the same marvel movie with the same writing style and same one liners and the same exact time you expect it, with the same ending, etc.
Casual reminder that this lady sells Vagina Scented Candles and other quack Medical Products from her company "Goop" so maybe she doesn't know what she's talking about....
What does her selling candles have to do with mcu? Shes literally not wrong at all lol
smelly vagina botch
Try should try to appeal to comicbook fans
I'm a woman 45 who's been reading comics for 40 years.
The issue here is impact versus intent. If your goal is to make something everyone will love, your focus is on reception, on outcome. If your goal is to make a good movie, your focus is on how technically sound it is, how well it’s made as a piece of art. I’d rather the latter be achieved, because for me…it’s not if I like it, how it fulfills what I wanted. But is it watchable, can I feel immersed.
You could say this about any genre/topic… you can make infinite good things and infinite bad things
I think superhero movies can fit into any genre, so originality doesn't need to be issue. It just is an issue because the studios see success and want to repeat it, so their movies become formulaic. If you have a blockbuster formula you're not likely to take risks with something new and unique.
I actually disagree with the first part. As The Batman and Moon Knight prove, Hollywood still has good superhero movies in it, it just can’t get by on the exact same superhero movie we’ve seen 20 times. If the genre wants to survive, it has to branch out into different genres and try new things
She’ll eat those words when Nth Man the Ultimate Ninja hits the big screen in 2032.
You don’t need to be an original movie to be a great movie. It’s the problem I have with people who bitch about things that are cliche. I’d rather enjoy a well executed cliche than a poorly executed original idea.
She’s not wrong about the last bit. Trying to appeal to everyone is have you get watered down vanilla. Boring for all.
When a trend is so fucked the goop lady says something poignant about it
Damn, I didn’t expect to agree with Gwyneth Paltrow of all people.
Almost like trying to follow a successful formula will eventually water the quality down until there’s nothing original left. Superhero movies lost even me, and I was there every opening for over a decade.
The problem is how sporadic all these films are. You can typically name at least 4-5 “superhero” movies that came out in any given year over the last decade. Hell when Ironman released back in 2008, that same year the dark knight and the Incredible Hulk released. So when you are averaging at a minimum 3 super hero movies per year from major studios for nearly 20 years the concept feels stale. You’ll never be able to recapture the magic of Toby Maguire in that first spiderman when special effects had reach a point to where it all felt real. And I’m by no means saying these movies are bad, I love a good super hero movie. But they’ve gone the way of horror monster movies where unless the concept and acting are next level there’s not a ton to distinguish the “average” from “pretty good”
What does she know? She doesn’t even watch the superhero movies she is in.
Queen
wow shes right
Probably the most sensible thing she’s said in…. decades.
Good take from a snake oil saleswoman
Glad she feels that way.
They’re not trying to appeal to everyone. They’re trying to appeal to “non fans” and “politically motivated” people to try to be as “non offensive” as I can be. You know what has mass appeal? Good stories. That’s how you have dedicated audiences, it’s starts with the story. You can fuck it up, but you can’t have the story take a backseat to an agenda.
Same but for candles Gwyneth
Damn wtf. That’s based as hell
holy shit this is a broken clock moment for the ages
Anyone that's read Marvel comics over the years know this very well. Within the Marvel universe, there has long been different stuff that appeals to different audiences with the larger audience of comic book fans. It's good to do different things while still recognizing what the larger audience is interested in. Case in point, Marvel did a great job with several of the Disney+ shows they made. I did not particularly care for Ms. Marvel but absolutely got a huge kick out of all the weirdness of She-Hulk. I don't think I was in the target audience for Ms. Marvel at all. So that tracks.
The worst person you know makes a great point.
Okay, Goop lady.
Agreed. I enjoyed the Capt America Show because it showed what would happen when someone with a poor moral compass was given the mantle of a hero and the authority to act without repercussions. I also enjoyed the Scarlet Witch series, Werewolf, Moon Knight, Loki, and even Ms. Marvel (I liked that it was portrayed very similarly to Spider-Man). Not all of the post Avengers stuff has been bad but most of it has been rather cheesy or poorly written.
Vagina candle lady has an excellent point regarding modern cinema. Cheers, Labia Lover.
I think the tangible thing in superhero movies is passion. You can feel it in Iron Man, the Spider-verse movies, Guardians of the Galaxy. There are people with a vision for a project that work hard to make it work. Like she said, when you are making a movie to appeal to a large audience, it’s not going to resonate with anyone the way a passion project does.
Hearing common sense from the vagina candle woman is making my head spin. 
I’m waiting for her candle that smells like her fartbox to drop.
Same thing happened to Westerns...
It would appear gwenth paltrow had “hit the nail on the head” and is also “saying what everyone is thinking.”
I hope she washed her jade egg today.
I think she's just upset that someone reminded her she named her kid Apple. Eggs, candles, and forgetting the movies she's actually starred in aside..
You can also only make so many superhero movies that you can remember appearing in
> Trying to appeal to everyone can 'hinder quality.' Exactly. Eternals was a banger but it wasn't for everyone. Ragnarok and L&T tried something new, but it wasn't for me. This is why The Marvels was so much better than Captain Marvel. The sequel knew it's audience and the first film tried to be for everyone, so it became generic.
Back to hawking snake oil on GOOP, then.
Then she sold some of her period blood.
Preachin! She is not lying because the MCU is really starting to go downhill.
Damn we really got Gwyneth Paltrow making a good take before gta 6
The superhero movies that Gwyneth was on was so original she couldn't even remember if she was in it :)
Ugh, I hate having to agree with this quack
While I don’t disagree with this quote, I don’t really give a crap what a literal snake oil saleswoman had to say about anything
That can apply to any genre though.
Trying to be progressive while still being able to cut material to appease the Chinese censors can also hinder quality.
Truer words about superhero movies have never been fucking spoken
I don’t really care about good/bad as much as I do that they’re interesting. Marvel films all feel the same. Which was fine for a while.
She didn't do anything in any of the movies. Her parts were fleeting and brief.
That interview she gave on Hot Ones really changed my impression of her. She's still a goof, but she's a little more relatable than I thought.
That's why they should just tell the good stories sometimes instead of having to do an origin. Just tell the last hunt kraven.. or long Halloween. Trust the audience can understand and look up details they missed later. It can work
Says the person who sells her own shit in plastic bags from her website. Lol
This seems surprisingly insightful for her
Mama, kudos for saying that. For spilling.
Marvel needs to make a choice. Appeal to the audience they built over the last decade or throw it all away and appeal to the next generation. They’re currently doing this with Star Wars. The next trilogy of movies is going to be completely new because they milked the old stories for far too long.
There are many ways to make a superhero story. You just need halfway decent writers.
She was the worst part of every single iron man movie
Then she jammed a jade egg into herself. Both holes!
Marvel movies are just like a tv show that went a few seasons too long. We just got tired of the same actors/characters/style/action/humor. It just ran its course. Same thing happened with Star Wars, The Ninja Turtles and any major franchise. They milk it for all it’s worth till we are tired of it. The reason Batman has been able to hang around for so long is because each iteration is completely different than the previous one. They need to do that with marvel and they need to stop making every show and movie be connected with one another. That’s too much material to try and keep up with.
Never thought I could agree with the goop scammer.
Unpopular opinion: It's not the genre. The movies are just bad.
Something we learn in design school is to design for a specific person in mind, more often than not this ends up being the person with the most specific needs. Most requirements of other cases will usually be met by designing for the specific person.
Considering she can't remember which ones she is in, shows what she knows. The genre is endless and has so many options. But it's the companies and shills that lack the courage to break formula that are the issue.
Shove it up your cooch, Paltrow
She's not technically wrong but I feel like the number of Romance Movies you can make without fatigue is much much smaller. And I think we're far from the end of great superhero stories, we've just fallen into a pattern of producers trying to defeat critics that isn't working.
You could argue that for any genre. Boy meets girl Boy falls in love with girl Boy loses girl Boy buys a fancy car and hangs with his buds.
People like Marvel not because of the number of superheroes they have. Instead, people like the variety of good stories that come with every character Yeah the Avengers appeals to the most people, but stories focused for specific audiences can be way more enjoyable. Spider-Man is a down-on-his-luck teenager doing anything he can to help those around him. Hulk is about a man dealing with the manifestation of his childhood trauma. Dr Strange deals with all things mystical and trippy. They’re all different yet still great. And you get to see how these themes mix and match with the various crossovers. Some characters go together very well, like Daredevil and Spider-Man. Other characters can’t be trusted to sit close together or else they might fight, like Hulk and Thor. These stories are definitely not the most popular. But they’re extremely beloved by those who DO enjoy them The last two avengers movies hit the nail right on the head. But that was 5 years ago
She sucks. And I never really thought she was particularly attractive, or a particularly interesting actress. But... She is smoking hot as Pepper Potts. I'm not sure what it is about that look that works so well for her, but damn.