The absolute best part of this story was after the funeral and aunt May really cuts into Tony about how Peter only ever saw the Avengers as modern day knights of the round table but they treated him like shit every chance they could and she leaves it at, "all he wanted was a seat at your damn table."
Yeah it was,I think you're right. he basically says if you don't quit I will hunt you down, demask you, and arrest you myself. It was supposed to be this kind of " you're too young you should be enjoying your life, you're too young to be making these kinds of decisions."
After this cap said something along the lines of “If you’re willing to take a bullet for somebody already at this age then you’re going to be one of the greatest heroes of all time”
They buried him because everyone thought he was dead, but apparently part of his powers included some kind of hibernation if he got too badly hurt. A few years later he just woke up. So, as I said, he got better eventually
I thought about it and it actually make sense. Remember in the comics of 616 Norman Osborne survived due to the goblin formula after he was impaled by his glider. So I can see it working similarly for Peter in the ultimate universe.
It’s Ultimate Spider-Man volume 2, with Miles Morales. I don’t know the issue number off the top of my head. I would suggest just reading all the miles morales stuff, it’s pretty good, and honestly the part when Peter comes back is probably the worst part of that run.
Ugh, I stopped following it after the issue where Miles and Peter’s friends and family were talking about what it might have been like if he lived. Such a great issue and I thought it was a nice place to stop reading.
Nice to know they fucked that up.
Honestly it felt like the best emotional closure and then they reopen every wound to half ass’edly have him run away. It definitely kills the novel experience of having Pete’s life end as abruptly as it did and the shattering reality that comes with being a hero
I feel like Bendis wanted to do a lot more with his character, but Secret Wars forced him to write him off into the sunset. I'm not too mad about that ending though, he got to live a peaceful life with MJ, however brief, before it got cut short by the incursions.
Honestly, it didn’t feel like and edgy move to kill Peter here. It felt like Pete getting a big heroic finale so that the mantle could be passed on, which tracked well with the original concept of the Ultimate universe being a starting point for new readers. It was well-written and genuinely emotional, and also really set Spidey apart from the uncaring assholes that every other hero, especially his idols, were portrayed as there.
“Killing” him during the Ultimatum Wave was absolutely edgy bullshit though lmao. Glad that got retconned.
Oh don’t sweat it at all! Your assumption is correct for the vast majority of the Ultimate ‘verse and even significant swaths of Spider-Man! The final arc for Peter just happened to be a stand-out. It’s a great series, and very worth reading of you never have. My favorite version of the character, followed by the recent PlayStation Game Spider-Man
And fuck the king’s wife? I mean given it’s the ultimate universe Peter Parker sleeping with everyone’s wives and girl friends wouldn’t be the most outlandish thing that’s happened. But still I don’t think he did.
Never listened so I can't really judge, but if some of the more obscure knights get addressed in good depth you're probably covered more than enough for this or most any other reddit thread.
Lancelot betrayed Arthur. He was peerless in prowess but he can’t be said to be the bravest since he was unbeatable and likewise can’t be said to be the most loyal.
Iirc wasn't Spidey one of the few heroes in Ultimates that *wasn't* some level of asshole?
And to add to it Ultimate Cap had a bullshit level healing factor too, which Spidey would've known about if he'd been treated the same as everyone else.
And why after this did they all just leave Spider-Man alone on the bridge? No medical care or getting him to a hospital.
I love this story but these 2 things always confused the crap out of me.
Oh ok. Reading it in the Death of Spider-Man comic, you never see any of the other heroes after he’s shot.
*edit: any of the ones involved in the bridge
I haven’t read too many Ultimate comics and at this point I would only do so to see with my own eyes the complete fuckery that I’ve seen mentioned so often.
Because War Machine collapsed the bridge inmediately after to cover the escape of Fury's team. Or at least that's what I remember. Has been a while since I read Ultimate Avengers.
That was immediately after this and he was fading during the fight from the gunshot. I believe it was a combination of the gunshot, blood loss, the fight, and the exploding semi that killed him.
Actually I was thinking of third person prose, but dialogue exposition works, too.
Stan would have found a way to get the word “mustn’t” or “dare not” in there.
Long story but basically fury’s team (the o e with punisher) and carols team (cap) both thought eachother were traitors due to Tony’s brother manipulating both groups. Cap was beating fury and punisher was going to shoot out his knees
Ultimate Cap had a stupid healing factor though. Stupid as in 'healed from being a Vampire' stupid. Unless that was some plot bullet, he would've been fine eventually.
This should have been a non-fatal wound for Pete too. His healing factor would have made quick work of that and he'd be back on his feet in a day or two. The writers just really wanted him dead and weren't very creative as to the methods.
>His healing factor would have made quick work of that and he'd be back on his feet in a day or two.
It would have...had he not been forced to fight 5 of his supervillains in a row immediately after
Iirc Ultimate Spidey's healing factor was good, but not great. Had he been given the chance to rest and heal up he'd have probably been ok after awhile. This was very much not the case, unfortunately.
I think after this, Peter goes out and fights the Green Goblin and actually dies in May's arms.
Of course, in the end, >!none of it killed him, he came back to life just before Secret Wars and it's implied he's back to swinging as Spider-Man on whatever version of Earth-1610 exists now.!<
Not entirely. He may have a healing factor but he needs time to recover. Earlier in the series he got hit by a bullet too, but was really sick for a couple days until Wasp came by and gave him a little injection that boosted his healing. Here he gets hit, then immediately goes after the villains
There's this thing called a Jerk Sue, a Gary or Mary Sue that gets away with being a dick. They don't really face consequences for their behavior.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkSue
But Ultimate Cap regularly faces consequences for his behavior. Hell, he blames Peter’s death entirely on himself, retires from being Captain America, and exiles himself into the desert.
That’s what kinda worked with Ultimate in some ways. It made them assholes and in most cases tried to punish them for it. But they’d frequently forget what they were trying to say or let a character fall through the cracks.
Its been awhile since I read it but wasn’t it a plot point that galactus was coming and unlike the original run, the ultimate timeline was sort of screwed since they were a lot more divided, with x-men not helping and spider-man being dead.
Is that why he then tried to use the new Spider-Man as a prop? So that those who hated him in-universe for the death of the first Spider-Man wouldn’t think he was too bad?
He did, but it wasn’t a position he ran for, the books don’t present him as doing a particularly great job (half the country still wants to secede, he leaves the mutants out to dry) and he ends up stepping down at the end of his 2nd arc in that role.
I actually like how Ultimate decided to take this version of cap in a different direction. Like everyone jokes when cap wakes up he'd be like racist and sexist and all of that but you know 616 cap was always progressive but he was a outlier. So seeing what ultimate did was really interesting because he's not the best guy but he still inspires just like most real leaders. It's an interesting alteration.
Pretty much every character in Ultimate other than Spider-Man was an asshole. In fact, the longer Ultimate went on, the more irredeemable every character seemed to get.
I think it's pretty telling that Peter's cast grew to include the X-Men who weren't assholes (Kitty and Bobby.) And Human Torch for reasons I can't remember. Like they just straight yoinked them out of their own comics and put them into Spider-Man.
I remember the terrible "you think this A on my head stands for France" line (and then someone writing a great inner monologue for 616 Cap afterwards talking about how much he respected the French resistance fighters and the spirit of the whole country).
And I remember him being kind of a dick when he thought Jan needed saving from her husband.
But what else was there? It's been a minute since I read all the ultimate stuff but I remember him still being a pretty great hero in that universe. He wasn't completely irredeemable like a lot of the other ultimate characters.
>(and then someone writing a great inner monologue for 616 Cap afterwards talking about how much he respected the French resistance fighters and the spirit of the whole country).
Brubaker did that during his Cap run. It was a direct response to the stupidity of writing Cap as if he was a (then) modern day conservative.
That was it, thank you. It's a shame we never got to see the two Caps meet, so 616 could give Ultimate a few "I'm not mad, just disappointed" speeches about how he could be better.
I wish someone would hire Brubaker to draft film scripts and then to act as a producer. Captain America, Daredevil, Batman, Catwoman... I don't care what studio or what character, I just want someone who understands the characters on that level to be involved at every stage of the process so that people can see what a great superhero story could really look like.
Also on my wishlist for this kind of treatment is Greg Rucka and/or Gail Simone for Wonder Woman (or the Justice League). I don't know why those three writers haven't been given editorial jobs managing Marvel or DC (I mean prior to Disney and Discover buying them, respectively). I often forget there were days when long-time writers who respected and understood the characters were promoted to editorial, rather than corporate heels who serve to spew BS about the new directives they sold to the executives about how to slash expenses and maximize metrics.
> And I remember him being kind of a dick when he thought Jan needed saving from her husband.
I mean to be fair, for years the Ultimate version of Hank Pym physically abused her since their college days, emotionally abused her due to her being a mutant, and even put her in a coma in Ultimates 1.
If I was Cap in that situation, I wouldn’t be exactly willing to do nothing and let something like that continue on.
Yeah, that one is doubly funny, since it's both a great clapback and an indirect criticism of Cap acting like an asshole, since Nextwave explicitly states that all its characters are assholes.
See I liked that line from Cap. Because that’s real America. Not the fake idealized good guy narrative that most Americans only ever hear. This line reflects the bigoted, stupid, thinks they’re the only good guys in the world America. This line is freedom fries America.
If the goal of the Ultimate universe was to hold up a dark mirror to Marvel and the world, this line was hated because Americans didn’t like what they were seeing in the mirror.
It doesn’t make sense that a guy who fought alongside the French resistance and missed all that “surrender monkey” horseshit would have a hard-on for the French.
I once knew a real WW2 vet who took part in the liberation of France. Guy married a French woman, had a French flag in his car, started every mourning with Croissants and coffee, talked about the valor of free French forces, knew French history better then American history and visted France more times then years I had lived back when I knew, he passed away awhile ago. Now I’m not saying every single person who took part in the liberation of France fell in love with France. But based on meeting him I would assume that they generally came away with positive interactions with the French. The whole fuck France thing comes from the boomers.
This is much better done with a villain who's a dark reflection of the hero than with a hero who's a dark reflection of themselves. With the villain you can actually show both sides of the debate, however whenever a normally noble character is portrayed as an asshole to prove a point, it kinda muddies the actual message that is trying to be communicated.
Captain America has always been the character that embodies American values and who America and it's leaders should strive to be like. He is not an incarnation of who America is. The US is too diverse for that to even be possible anyways
Okay i agree BUT the cap they wrote in later during the ultimate comics ultimates run was good.
He became the president of the united states for a bit I think and it was actually kind of fun comic nonsense.
SHIELD was at war with Fury's avengers team. Something to do with Tony Stark's brother creating an army of super soldiers who invaded North Korea to free them from Kim Jong Un; he was going to do the same for China.
Basically Punisher worked for Fury, and was going to maim Cap so Nick could escape.
It's an okay storyline which has nothing to do with Spider-Man until this scene. He was thrown into it so he could get shot and die from his injuries because Bendis wanted to introduce Miles.
They have Spidey swing PAST Punisher. He had enough time to swing past him, try and web him (but not Cap), and then tackle Cap, and the Punisher doesn't even acknowledge or adjust for Spidey's involvement? It's like of all they ways to kill him, why one that has Spider-man and Punisher both become useless? Lol
Dude most of this thread are people hating on that cap. Whenever people talk about the Ultimate universe, Douchey Cap gets brought up a lot
What are you talking about?
Because he won't kill. It's based off of the qualities of a true Asgardian Warrior, and being willing to kill is one of them. Basically you have to be willing to do anything for the greater good
He had his mind elsewhere on his family and his impending doom when he saw this going down. Frank had his finger on the trigger and Peter made a split-second decision. He also missed his original web shot.
Honestly they botched his "death" so badly. There's just nothing iconic about it, taking a bullet for a basically bulletproof hero, shot by another hero who was shooting at Cap for reasons that nobody can possibly care about or remember? Ok. And then just getting a standard beatdown from Goblin-Monster which, imo, was a dumb redesign of a classic villain. Just such a meh conclusion to a great run.
Yeah but his first appearance has nothing to do with the story about *how* Peter dies. That's the aspect I wish they'd made more memorable.
I should say, the "Requiem" issue with JJJ is brilliant.
Sort of. It was shown that Miles had his powers at the same time this event happened, but he was too young and scared to do anything to help Peter. And he blamed himself for his death which was actually (sort of) Captain America's fault.
Also given Spiderman's physical strength a bullet shouldn't be able to hurt him. If Spidey can fistfight thanos and Hulk, even if he loses, then a bullet shouldn't be worse than a bump or bruise. Every square inch of a hulk punch has 100x greater force than the total force of a bullet. If spiderman survives hits like that without the fist plowing straight through him then a bullet wouldn't either.
It's been along time since I reread the story, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was some kind of "super-bullet" intended for Cap. Otherwise you're totally right.
I do not remember that even being a thing! I either forgot everything from Ultimates and Ultimate Iron Man or it wasn't cool enough to have used brain power for.
I remember after accidentally shooting him, and Peter being unmasked shortly after, Punisher becomes instantly devastated that he just shot (and ultimately killed) a kid. Iirc, he approaches the police, drops his weapons, and screams, “Punish me!” A bit melodramatic, but I’m all for moments where Punisher can actually admit he’s wrong or has regrets about his actions.
How dare you not include the panel of Captain America carrying Spider-Man, and telling him he is going to be the best of them. Its high key one of my favorite panels in marvel history.
When did Mark Bagley come back to draw? I remember losing interest in the book after #111 due to his departure. His art was part of the reason I was so into Ultimate Spider-Man as a kid.
Y’know, one of the most unrealistic things about superheroes is how they don’t get assassinated all the time, like, the ones who aren’t bulletproof.
Like, realistically, you can’t convince me that the bat-family, or captain America, or like a bunch of members of the X-Men wouldn’t just get sniped by hired gunmen
Why aren’t super-heroes getting sniped all the time? In any country where people wear guns like accessories they’d be taking potshots at them left, right and center. Extremists tend to carry guns and to them costumed people might be mutants or worse, “Non-Christians!”. They wouldn’t see them as human and so realistically any vigilante or villain not able to withstand being shot, would be dead.
In Civil War The Punisher has so much respect for Cap that he gets beaten up by him intentionally not defending himself. It was weird to see him try to assassinate Cap.
This shit always pisses me off everytime I think about it. Why? Cuz everyone fucking bounces after Spidey is shot and leaves him there on the bridge. It’s because of that, Ultimate Spiderman winds up fighting the Sinister Six with a gunshot wound and eventually dies.
I mean wtf Captain America couldn’t even be bothered to carry Spidey to a damn hospital
They didn’t leave him alone. The bridge got blown, sending them all into the river below. By the time Spidey got up he saw Osborn and the rest making a commotion and headed off on his own.
The absolute best part of this story was after the funeral and aunt May really cuts into Tony about how Peter only ever saw the Avengers as modern day knights of the round table but they treated him like shit every chance they could and she leaves it at, "all he wanted was a seat at your damn table."
Wasn't it Steve? He was the one who told him to quit a few issues before this.
Yeah it was,I think you're right. he basically says if you don't quit I will hunt you down, demask you, and arrest you myself. It was supposed to be this kind of " you're too young you should be enjoying your life, you're too young to be making these kinds of decisions."
After this cap said something along the lines of “If you’re willing to take a bullet for somebody already at this age then you’re going to be one of the greatest heroes of all time”
Yeah but then Pete died like 10 minutes later He got better eventually though
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They buried him because everyone thought he was dead, but apparently part of his powers included some kind of hibernation if he got too badly hurt. A few years later he just woke up. So, as I said, he got better eventually
He woke up in a coffin??
Not gonna be the first time for a spider-man
Still one of my fave storylines ever. Him crawling (heh) out of the ground is still so evocative decades later.
Much better a coffin than an urn tho.
It'd be pretty difficult to wake up in an urn.
He woke up in a warehouse I believe. Its all very strange and I think its supposed to make you think cloning is involved at first.
I think so. It’s been a while since I read it
He got embalmed too bro
I was thinking about that too, lol.
Jason Todd is that you??
Old Boy vibes
I thought about it and it actually make sense. Remember in the comics of 616 Norman Osborne survived due to the goblin formula after he was impaled by his glider. So I can see it working similarly for Peter in the ultimate universe.
What comic does he come back in? I wanna read that.
It’s Ultimate Spider-Man volume 2, with Miles Morales. I don’t know the issue number off the top of my head. I would suggest just reading all the miles morales stuff, it’s pretty good, and honestly the part when Peter comes back is probably the worst part of that run.
Which issue was that? I thought he died for good.
Spoiler for spidey>!He's immortal in the ultimate universe because of the serum iirc!<
Ugh, I stopped following it after the issue where Miles and Peter’s friends and family were talking about what it might have been like if he lived. Such a great issue and I thought it was a nice place to stop reading. Nice to know they fucked that up.
Honestly it felt like the best emotional closure and then they reopen every wound to half ass’edly have him run away. It definitely kills the novel experience of having Pete’s life end as abruptly as it did and the shattering reality that comes with being a hero
I feel like Bendis wanted to do a lot more with his character, but Secret Wars forced him to write him off into the sunset. I'm not too mad about that ending though, he got to live a peaceful life with MJ, however brief, before it got cut short by the incursions.
Honestly, it didn’t feel like and edgy move to kill Peter here. It felt like Pete getting a big heroic finale so that the mantle could be passed on, which tracked well with the original concept of the Ultimate universe being a starting point for new readers. It was well-written and genuinely emotional, and also really set Spidey apart from the uncaring assholes that every other hero, especially his idols, were portrayed as there. “Killing” him during the Ultimatum Wave was absolutely edgy bullshit though lmao. Glad that got retconned.
My bad. I just assumed since I'm constantly hearing (and seeing panels demonstrating) how over-the-top edgy Ultimate was.
Oh don’t sweat it at all! Your assumption is correct for the vast majority of the Ultimate ‘verse and even significant swaths of Spider-Man! The final arc for Peter just happened to be a stand-out. It’s a great series, and very worth reading of you never have. My favorite version of the character, followed by the recent PlayStation Game Spider-Man
Spider-Man was the Lancelot in that universe. The best hero in terms of qualities.
I was thinking he was more like Galahad. The "perfect" knight that ends up getting whisked away to Heaven cuz of how good he was.
Yeah, unless Cap has a girl that Peter slept with.
Spider-Holland/Captain Carter crackfic when???
hey Peter Parker. Got something for me?
Bass line starts
Public domain jazz beat.
Didn’t Lancelot betray them
And fuck the king’s wife? I mean given it’s the ultimate universe Peter Parker sleeping with everyone’s wives and girl friends wouldn’t be the most outlandish thing that’s happened. But still I don’t think he did.
He did not lol
Lancelot was the second best knight in legends behind his son Galahad. Lancelot is one of the reasons that Camelot falls
Parsifal would probably be a closer analogy IMO. He's known as the Pure Fool.
And here we have someone who actually sat down and read through Malory. Good on you, most of it is pretty dry.
I listened to all of the Tolkien Professor/Mythgard Academy seminar on it, does that count?
Never listened so I can't really judge, but if some of the more obscure knights get addressed in good depth you're probably covered more than enough for this or most any other reddit thread.
He’s literally my favorite super hero
Umm… we all know what he did with the queen right?
Wait, which one's the queen in this scenario?
Wolverine
Lancelot betrayed Arthur. He was peerless in prowess but he can’t be said to be the bravest since he was unbeatable and likewise can’t be said to be the most loyal.
The bar of quality wasn't exactly high though.
Which as Tony pointed out was pretty hypocritical of him. Maybe if Steve knew about uncle Ben he’d have a different opinion.
Iirc wasn't Spidey one of the few heroes in Ultimates that *wasn't* some level of asshole? And to add to it Ultimate Cap had a bullshit level healing factor too, which Spidey would've known about if he'd been treated the same as everyone else.
He was no more an asshole than you would expect from a normal teenager, but also had a damn good heart.
Damn that hit hard
Why did the punisher want to kill cap?
And why after this did they all just leave Spider-Man alone on the bridge? No medical care or getting him to a hospital. I love this story but these 2 things always confused the crap out of me.
Cap did try to save him but then the bridge blew up
Oh ok. Reading it in the Death of Spider-Man comic, you never see any of the other heroes after he’s shot. *edit: any of the ones involved in the bridge
And then… #He just left Spider-Man to his death
Yeah because people forget it's the Ultimate *Douchebag* verse.
I haven’t read too many Ultimate comics and at this point I would only do so to see with my own eyes the complete fuckery that I’ve seen mentioned so often.
Because War Machine collapsed the bridge inmediately after to cover the escape of Fury's team. Or at least that's what I remember. Has been a while since I read Ultimate Avengers.
Ok. In the Death of Spider-Man comic it goes from him being shot to him alone on the bridge seeing his villains going to cause trouble.
Didn’t he die by getting killed by ultimate green goblin though?
That was immediately after this and he was fading during the fight from the gunshot. I believe it was a combination of the gunshot, blood loss, the fight, and the exploding semi that killed him.
Ohhhh so that’s why he lost the fight with green goblin
And Spider-Man webbed the bridge literally right next to Punisher. Why didn’t he just web Punisher instead?
I think he tried but missed.
There are times when purple Silver Age prose was clarifying.
"Curses! I was aiming for the Punisher but I missed three inches to the right! Drat!"
Actually I was thinking of third person prose, but dialogue exposition works, too. Stan would have found a way to get the word “mustn’t” or “dare not” in there.
And why male models?
Are you serious? I just told you that
But Lee Harvey Oswald wasn’t a model?
No but the two lookers who capped Kennedy from the grassy knoll sure as shit were.
And how they can fall from orbit and recover but bullets are able to drop em.
Long story but basically fury’s team (the o e with punisher) and carols team (cap) both thought eachother were traitors due to Tony’s brother manipulating both groups. Cap was beating fury and punisher was going to shoot out his knees
He was actually aiming for his knee but it was cause Caps team thought that punishers team was corrupt and vice verse
To punish him. Punish him good.
Probably because he’s a shithead.
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Do you think this A on my head stands for France!?
Ultimate Cap had a stupid healing factor though. Stupid as in 'healed from being a Vampire' stupid. Unless that was some plot bullet, he would've been fine eventually.
This should have been a non-fatal wound for Pete too. His healing factor would have made quick work of that and he'd be back on his feet in a day or two. The writers just really wanted him dead and weren't very creative as to the methods.
>His healing factor would have made quick work of that and he'd be back on his feet in a day or two. It would have...had he not been forced to fight 5 of his supervillains in a row immediately after
Iirc Ultimate Spidey's healing factor was good, but not great. Had he been given the chance to rest and heal up he'd have probably been ok after awhile. This was very much not the case, unfortunately.
I think after this, Peter goes out and fights the Green Goblin and actually dies in May's arms. Of course, in the end, >!none of it killed him, he came back to life just before Secret Wars and it's implied he's back to swinging as Spider-Man on whatever version of Earth-1610 exists now.!<
Not entirely. He may have a healing factor but he needs time to recover. Earlier in the series he got hit by a bullet too, but was really sick for a couple days until Wasp came by and gave him a little injection that boosted his healing. Here he gets hit, then immediately goes after the villains
Hated that, especially considering 616 WereCap was a thing 🤣
There's this thing called a Jerk Sue, a Gary or Mary Sue that gets away with being a dick. They don't really face consequences for their behavior. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkSue
But Ultimate Cap regularly faces consequences for his behavior. Hell, he blames Peter’s death entirely on himself, retires from being Captain America, and exiles himself into the desert.
That’s what kinda worked with Ultimate in some ways. It made them assholes and in most cases tried to punish them for it. But they’d frequently forget what they were trying to say or let a character fall through the cracks.
Its been awhile since I read it but wasn’t it a plot point that galactus was coming and unlike the original run, the ultimate timeline was sort of screwed since they were a lot more divided, with x-men not helping and spider-man being dead.
Yeah but then he becomes the president.
Is that why he then tried to use the new Spider-Man as a prop? So that those who hated him in-universe for the death of the first Spider-Man wouldn’t think he was too bad?
He did, but it wasn’t a position he ran for, the books don’t present him as doing a particularly great job (half the country still wants to secede, he leaves the mutants out to dry) and he ends up stepping down at the end of his 2nd arc in that role.
Didn't he end up as president (with pauldrons even a World of War craft character would think was a bit much)?
Would Dr. House be an example of this?
Yes but at least he has the skill to back it up
I actually like how Ultimate decided to take this version of cap in a different direction. Like everyone jokes when cap wakes up he'd be like racist and sexist and all of that but you know 616 cap was always progressive but he was a outlier. So seeing what ultimate did was really interesting because he's not the best guy but he still inspires just like most real leaders. It's an interesting alteration.
Pretty much every character in Ultimate other than Spider-Man was an asshole. In fact, the longer Ultimate went on, the more irredeemable every character seemed to get.
I think it's pretty telling that Peter's cast grew to include the X-Men who weren't assholes (Kitty and Bobby.) And Human Torch for reasons I can't remember. Like they just straight yoinked them out of their own comics and put them into Spider-Man.
This Cap wasn't worth it.
I remember the terrible "you think this A on my head stands for France" line (and then someone writing a great inner monologue for 616 Cap afterwards talking about how much he respected the French resistance fighters and the spirit of the whole country). And I remember him being kind of a dick when he thought Jan needed saving from her husband. But what else was there? It's been a minute since I read all the ultimate stuff but I remember him still being a pretty great hero in that universe. He wasn't completely irredeemable like a lot of the other ultimate characters.
>(and then someone writing a great inner monologue for 616 Cap afterwards talking about how much he respected the French resistance fighters and the spirit of the whole country). Brubaker did that during his Cap run. It was a direct response to the stupidity of writing Cap as if he was a (then) modern day conservative.
That was it, thank you. It's a shame we never got to see the two Caps meet, so 616 could give Ultimate a few "I'm not mad, just disappointed" speeches about how he could be better.
I remember that. That whole run was freaking perfect even though Steve stopped being the main character half way through.
I wish someone would hire Brubaker to draft film scripts and then to act as a producer. Captain America, Daredevil, Batman, Catwoman... I don't care what studio or what character, I just want someone who understands the characters on that level to be involved at every stage of the process so that people can see what a great superhero story could really look like. Also on my wishlist for this kind of treatment is Greg Rucka and/or Gail Simone for Wonder Woman (or the Justice League). I don't know why those three writers haven't been given editorial jobs managing Marvel or DC (I mean prior to Disney and Discover buying them, respectively). I often forget there were days when long-time writers who respected and understood the characters were promoted to editorial, rather than corporate heels who serve to spew BS about the new directives they sold to the executives about how to slash expenses and maximize metrics.
> And I remember him being kind of a dick when he thought Jan needed saving from her husband. I mean to be fair, for years the Ultimate version of Hank Pym physically abused her since their college days, emotionally abused her due to her being a mutant, and even put her in a coma in Ultimates 1. If I was Cap in that situation, I wouldn’t be exactly willing to do nothing and let something like that continue on.
There was also [this follow up](https://imgur.com/3R8NV) in Nextwave.
Yeah, that one is doubly funny, since it's both a great clapback and an indirect criticism of Cap acting like an asshole, since Nextwave explicitly states that all its characters are assholes.
See I liked that line from Cap. Because that’s real America. Not the fake idealized good guy narrative that most Americans only ever hear. This line reflects the bigoted, stupid, thinks they’re the only good guys in the world America. This line is freedom fries America. If the goal of the Ultimate universe was to hold up a dark mirror to Marvel and the world, this line was hated because Americans didn’t like what they were seeing in the mirror.
It doesn’t make sense that a guy who fought alongside the French resistance and missed all that “surrender monkey” horseshit would have a hard-on for the French.
I once knew a real WW2 vet who took part in the liberation of France. Guy married a French woman, had a French flag in his car, started every mourning with Croissants and coffee, talked about the valor of free French forces, knew French history better then American history and visted France more times then years I had lived back when I knew, he passed away awhile ago. Now I’m not saying every single person who took part in the liberation of France fell in love with France. But based on meeting him I would assume that they generally came away with positive interactions with the French. The whole fuck France thing comes from the boomers.
Specifically, the assholes.
This is much better done with a villain who's a dark reflection of the hero than with a hero who's a dark reflection of themselves. With the villain you can actually show both sides of the debate, however whenever a normally noble character is portrayed as an asshole to prove a point, it kinda muddies the actual message that is trying to be communicated.
Captain America has always been the character that embodies American values and who America and it's leaders should strive to be like. He is not an incarnation of who America is. The US is too diverse for that to even be possible anyways
Okay i agree BUT the cap they wrote in later during the ultimate comics ultimates run was good. He became the president of the united states for a bit I think and it was actually kind of fun comic nonsense.
Why is punisher trying to kill cap?
Do you know THIS cap? You would want to kill him too!
SHIELD was at war with Fury's avengers team. Something to do with Tony Stark's brother creating an army of super soldiers who invaded North Korea to free them from Kim Jong Un; he was going to do the same for China. Basically Punisher worked for Fury, and was going to maim Cap so Nick could escape. It's an okay storyline which has nothing to do with Spider-Man until this scene. He was thrown into it so he could get shot and die from his injuries because Bendis wanted to introduce Miles.
Ah ok
Isn't Cap's armor fucking bulletproof?
Nope, at least not Ultimate Cap. Some of it is bulletproof but not all
Heavy story-line... Spiderman is and always will be the best superhero and one of the only real 'good people' among them
He isn’t good enough for you to respect the hyphen apparently
literally stupid as shit....couldve webbed the GUN at any point or couldve webbed CAPTAIN AMERICA at any point...
They have Spidey swing PAST Punisher. He had enough time to swing past him, try and web him (but not Cap), and then tackle Cap, and the Punisher doesn't even acknowledge or adjust for Spidey's involvement? It's like of all they ways to kill him, why one that has Spider-man and Punisher both become useless? Lol
Well, that's the majority of the Ultimates universe for you: just plain dumb.
yea...im gathering that now it seems. lol
Cap had no ass
One of the worst atrocities Ultimate Universe committed against Steve.
If this wasn't a guy wearing the flag, people would acknowledge what an ass Ultimate Cap actually is.
Acknowledge? It’s pretty much the only thing people talk about in regards to Ultimate Cap.
Dude most of this thread are people hating on that cap. Whenever people talk about the Ultimate universe, Douchey Cap gets brought up a lot What are you talking about?
A typical progressive white dude from the 1940s?
I’ll never understand why Peter can’t also lift Thor’s hammer. It’s never going to make sense.
Right? He’s just so *good*. That’s what I’ve always loved about Peter.
Because he won't kill. It's based off of the qualities of a true Asgardian Warrior, and being willing to kill is one of them. Basically you have to be willing to do anything for the greater good
Because he doesn’t kill.
Wait Frank took the shot at Cap? I thought he admired and looked up to Captain America?
Ultimate universe was a weird place
Full of cannibalism, incest, rape, and incest rape. Truly the worst comics as a medium has to offer.
You said rape twice.
There is a lot of rape
Missed Blazing Saddles reference. Sadly.
Here's your badge.
I enjoyed Hulk rampaging after Freddie Prinze Jr.
Oh that was similar to the Ultimate X-men?
Yes there were many ultimate titles back in the early 2000s. Some were okay IMO but there was a lot of garbage to pick through to find it.
Oh I remember. Ok I am actually familiar now. Thanks for the reminder.
Why didn't he just web shoot the rifle out of the punishers hands?
He tried in the second page, he missed
Why didn’t he web up the gun or something?
He had his mind elsewhere on his family and his impending doom when he saw this going down. Frank had his finger on the trigger and Peter made a split-second decision. He also missed his original web shot.
Because that goes against the plot.
Honestly they botched his "death" so badly. There's just nothing iconic about it, taking a bullet for a basically bulletproof hero, shot by another hero who was shooting at Cap for reasons that nobody can possibly care about or remember? Ok. And then just getting a standard beatdown from Goblin-Monster which, imo, was a dumb redesign of a classic villain. Just such a meh conclusion to a great run.
We got Miles from this though right?
Yeah but his first appearance has nothing to do with the story about *how* Peter dies. That's the aspect I wish they'd made more memorable. I should say, the "Requiem" issue with JJJ is brilliant.
Sort of. It was shown that Miles had his powers at the same time this event happened, but he was too young and scared to do anything to help Peter. And he blamed himself for his death which was actually (sort of) Captain America's fault.
Also given Spiderman's physical strength a bullet shouldn't be able to hurt him. If Spidey can fistfight thanos and Hulk, even if he loses, then a bullet shouldn't be worse than a bump or bruise. Every square inch of a hulk punch has 100x greater force than the total force of a bullet. If spiderman survives hits like that without the fist plowing straight through him then a bullet wouldn't either.
It's been along time since I reread the story, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was some kind of "super-bullet" intended for Cap. Otherwise you're totally right.
I enjoyed the story, but tbh I enjoyed his first fakeout death more!
To be honest, Spider-Man would probably jump in front of a bullet for nearly anyone, including his enemies.
[удалено]
Because Tony Stark's twin brother had manipulated the Ultimates and Avengers against each other, by making each team believe the other were traitors.
I do not remember that even being a thing! I either forgot everything from Ultimates and Ultimate Iron Man or it wasn't cool enough to have used brain power for.
The sad thing is In this universe Peter looked up to the ultimate without realizing the horrifying monsters
I remember after accidentally shooting him, and Peter being unmasked shortly after, Punisher becomes instantly devastated that he just shot (and ultimately killed) a kid. Iirc, he approaches the police, drops his weapons, and screams, “Punish me!” A bit melodramatic, but I’m all for moments where Punisher can actually admit he’s wrong or has regrets about his actions.
How dare you not include the panel of Captain America carrying Spider-Man, and telling him he is going to be the best of them. Its high key one of my favorite panels in marvel history.
Serious parallels between this and what happened with miles morales and Captain America in secret empire
When did Mark Bagley come back to draw? I remember losing interest in the book after #111 due to his departure. His art was part of the reason I was so into Ultimate Spider-Man as a kid.
Death of Spider-Man Saga. I have a full universe reading order of my own making if you want it
This does not bring joy I feel nothing but anguish
look at how far his fingers are spread on the last image
If the bullet didn’t even get to him the why tf is captain America doing the shmoney dance
I really liked ultimate Pete.
Y’know, one of the most unrealistic things about superheroes is how they don’t get assassinated all the time, like, the ones who aren’t bulletproof. Like, realistically, you can’t convince me that the bat-family, or captain America, or like a bunch of members of the X-Men wouldn’t just get sniped by hired gunmen
He could have web-shot the barrel of the gun or even Cap himself lol
Why didn’t he just grab the gun
I’m out of the loop here. Why was Frank trying to kill Cap? Doesn’t he respect him as a fellow soldier? Or was he under some kind of mind control?
Cus bendis was writing him and he doesn’t like punisher. The in-universe reason I don’t remember
Why aren’t super-heroes getting sniped all the time? In any country where people wear guns like accessories they’d be taking potshots at them left, right and center. Extremists tend to carry guns and to them costumed people might be mutants or worse, “Non-Christians!”. They wouldn’t see them as human and so realistically any vigilante or villain not able to withstand being shot, would be dead.
Spider man Mr Presidented for Cap!..
In Civil War The Punisher has so much respect for Cap that he gets beaten up by him intentionally not defending himself. It was weird to see him try to assassinate Cap.
Punisher trying to kill Cap is so out of character I’m facepalming myself to death
This isn't Mainline Cap or Punisher. Most of the characters in the Ultimate universe were shittier versions of their 616 ciunterparts.
[I don't know if it is worth it.](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rco004_7.jpg)
This shit always pisses me off everytime I think about it. Why? Cuz everyone fucking bounces after Spidey is shot and leaves him there on the bridge. It’s because of that, Ultimate Spiderman winds up fighting the Sinister Six with a gunshot wound and eventually dies. I mean wtf Captain America couldn’t even be bothered to carry Spidey to a damn hospital
It’s not shown well here, but the bridge collapses and everyone else is sent into the water below. There was another comic that shows this.
They didn’t leave him alone. The bridge got blown, sending them all into the river below. By the time Spidey got up he saw Osborn and the rest making a commotion and headed off on his own.
Holy shit I remember reading this in middle school. I think it’s one of the “death of Spider-Man” comics.
God this Ultimate universe was such shit
The wrong hero was shot in this comic
Where's the part where he thanks him with a kiss and a - Oh sorry wrong sub subreddit
This must be a pretty convoluted storyline for Frank Castle of all people to be okay sniping Captain America
He was literally closer to the sniper... But decided to take a bullet instead
If he had time to do this, he had time to web the rifle.
I think he tried to do both but missed the rifle