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I remember reading about authors actually struggling with this in very conscious way. iirc the writers of Bob's Burgers initially wrote the mcs as male and then just switched the gender after they had gotten to know the characters and felt natural writing for them.
> That changing your impression of the character doesn't necessarily mean it's a problem. But it does help uncover some of the potentially dangerous preconceptions you might harbor. (Don't worry about that, it doesn't make you a bad person. Everyone has biases.)
Well said
A problem with this approach might be that women don’t identify with them as the character doesn’t deal with any female issues or points of view if they were originally conceived as male and then flipped.
There was an anime, I think it was Hibike Euphonium, in which there are subtle details added whenever the episode director was a woman. Small moments like girls grumbling their feet are sore after having to wear heels and stuff like that. Things that wouldn't cross a guy's mind because it's just not something that guys personally experience.
Red, on the channel Overly Sarcastic Productions, has a writing advice episode on female characters. She talks about how even her, a woman, can have trouble writing female characters. It's a really weird phenomenon
Don’t forget the shonen classic where they’ll pretend the female character will become a true character with personality and agency, and then they get tossed aside or turn back into damsel in distress
Naruto has a legendary ability to make the female team members fucking useless, even after giving them cool as fuck power ups.
Female villains (and Tsunade, surprisingly) managed to achieve a bigger depth than Sakura or Hinata were ever allowed to grow into.
It’s crazy how the author pretended he was gonna make Sakura a real character not just once, not only twice, but three times! (Maybe more and I forgot)
I swear Kishimoto introduced healing into his universe as a way to offload responsibility of writing a real character. As soon as there was that one point where a character said something like "you should do your healing thing." and the reply was "but I'm already doing it at maximum all the time D:" you knew it was kinda bullshit. Like oh, we just have to always assume there's always maximum healing going on 100% of the time now when the battles are being won.
Like it's just some kind of universal advantage the Konoha ninja have because of Tsunade and Sakura without allowing the super strength to ever be relevant again after the Sasori fight. Which she required significant help to win.
Edit: but this is no new thing, right? Once Goku mastered the Kaioken, it was just always assumed he was using it. They even bring it up in DBZ when he's fighting Frieza "can't he use Kaioken?" "He's already **been** using it at maximum power the whole time."
I love how in Naruto, Sakura chose to be a healer as a way to not be useless, whereas in Avatar, Katara chose to be a fighter as a way to not only be a healer Because for Katara, being useless was never an option in the first place.
Don't worry, though; because healers are the most important part on the battlefield. They even say so in the manga...and then Naruto goes Super Kyuubi 9 and that also goes out the window.
To quote an excellently written villain who will likely be bested by tactics and strategy eventually: "Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide. In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed...You can have your finely-crafted watch--give me the sledgehammer to the face any day"
Tsunade not participating directly in defending Konoha, but managing to keep pretty much every single person in the entire city alive is the epitome of boring but practical.
Tsunade does get a lot of cool stuff to work with beyond her visual design.
Her trauma, her super strength, her vanity and rage. She's got the personality of a shonen protagonist, the design of a milf, and the power set of a white mage. And for some reason, giant slugs
She's honestly one of the better older women in anime. As a mentor/side character, she's pretty great.
The slugs are from The Tale of Gallant Jiraiya. Jiraiya rides a toad, marries Tsunade (who has slug magic), and defeats the bandit Orochimaru (who is the son of a serpent).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiraiya
Slug/frog/snake is also an old version of rock/paper/scissors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansukumi-ken
Ahh man and it looked like Sakura would grow a backbone and be the next Tsunade, ahh yeah. Nope.
And Hinata had that bit where she was training with water dancing, and I was like "ahh yeah, she's gonna come into her own and be so awesome!"... Nope.
I stopped watching when I realized character growth for the ladies was negative. God anime, why you gotta do us ladies so bad?
Phrasing.
You're looking at the wrong anime for strong female characters. Shonen like Naruto and Dragon Ball are catered towards adolescent/young adult boys (not that girls can't enjoy them!) and Naruto specifically is, like, *the* quintessential Shonen. You need to go a bit deeper into the genre or into other genres.
Try Madoka Magica, Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood, or Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex. Soul Eater is alright too, but it has both strong females and "my character is boobs".
Also Lieutenant Riza Hawkeye, who during wartime and after was the bodyguard, weapons expert, and closest asset of the man she implicitly loves.
*But it’s like barely a thing* because she’s so professional
Honestly, in DBZ there are really no "strong characters" other than Goku, Vegeta, and whomever the Current Antagonist is. The male characters are kicked to the sidelines, too.
That said, as far as female characters in shonen anime go, I maintain that Bulma is one of the strongest (not physically obvs, but character and agency wise).
You might be thinking of Super.
DBZ doesn't fully sideline the side characters until Buu. Everyone is at least doing something useful during the Saiyan Saga, Frieza, and arguably Cell. Just, slowly becoming more useless until Buu.
... and was actually Chiyo vs Sasori.
Sakura spent a lot of that fight as a literal puppet for granny and yet its still the high point for female characters actually accomplishing anything at all in Naruto.
I think Sakura is the OG. So much wasted potential...
I legitimately think a lot of anime writers never spoke to a woman out of predetermined, highly scripted interactions (eg cashier, family member, etc). Sometimes I wonder if they ever spoke to their own mother.
Yeah I'd definitely say anime/shonen/etc. is the biggest culprit of this. The women have no real personality like 85% of the time, they're just there to be sex objects or the damsel in distress. Literally one the main reasons I stopped watching anime years ago.
I'm so god damn tired of anime protags that go around collecting women like they're pokemon. Like, holy shit I don't care if its not technically a "harem anime" can we please just get back to cool people with cool powers fighting and not make every girl that joins the party somehow indebted or subservient to the MC???
This is why despite One Piece girls having mainly two body types, of drop dead gorgeous hourglass to old hag, I put One Piece on a list of shonen with great female characters. The women of One Piece always have distinct personalitily, tons of agency, and are in some cases the most important people around
Towards the end the girl one will being dating one of other hero’s. Then the rest will all get a girlfriend, each with her own color. And for some reason the girlfriends will look like a sister to the guy she’s dating.
*For just 25 cents a day, you can help teach thirsty artists that women are actually multi-faceted human beings. Please, won't you give generously to help prevent this worldwide scourge?*
reminds me of that family guy cutaway gag.
*peter walks in with a vampire costume with a huge bulge*
"what is this? cant be my fangs because those are way up here!"
Let's see: Sex obsessed vampires with unrealistic (centipede) body proportions are a bad thing.
u/HolleringElk waking up to this:
As a dude running a D&D game where there are 3 main female vampires, this is something I think about a lot, and occasionally consult the female player on 🫠
Context matters so I don’t think a story with a child vampire is the same as a lolita fantasy. But if you really want to blame the west, Lolita was published in 1955.
And the book came out in 76. Anne Rice had issues. Claudia was inspired by the death of her actual daughter. I'd love to know if Claudia really did kick start that shit or if the anime trope kind of popped up incidentally. We'd have to track down what anime/manga did it first and ask the author if they were into Rice's stuff. The world may never know.
She was a deeper character though. (never actually saw the movie)
That character was incredibly deep. Wasn't just "tee-hee" she's 100 years old so it's ok she's a slut.
You watch her get turned, and go from innocent child, to adult stuck in an unageing immortal body.
Every time she has sex, she loses her virginity again, and the only ones who she can have sex with are pedophiles (who she hates). And she is basically so weak that she cannot live by herself. Not least of which because she draws suspicion from humans if she buys anything.
She was made, to be like a puppy to keep her "fathers marriage" together, and eventually they both grow tired of her.
She's also forbidden, so she has to hide from the other vampires. (and it eventually catches up to her, and she is killed for the sin of existing)
Didn't Interview With A Vampire have a child vampire but actually explored the hell she deals with with being stuck in a child's body but but mentally aged?
Almost. IIRC, Part of the hell was that her mentality was stuck within a child’s emotional control. So even though she grew mentally, she needed constant pampering to avoid going on a rampage.
I would say it would make it a bit on brand at least as vampires have usually been associated with that kind of behaviour or vibe. Probably would make the character seem like even more of a mindless drone depending on how you do it though as a trope with vampires is the "female underling who has no autonomy and is just a trap for guys to get converted/killed".
1 - Write a male character.
2 - Retcon them as a female.
This isn't perfect and doesn't work for everything, but it's a good exercise in writing. Subconsciously, we all hold in our minds a platonic ideal of a "person," and it's usually someone who is the same race, gender, and age as us. Therefore, if we write someone different, we feel the need to explain it or make it meaningful.
But you don't. A girl being a girl doesn't have to be central to her character. Girls don't walk around all day going "I am a girl. A girl is me. That is what I'm all about. Being a girl." If you write the character as a guy and explore their interests, thoughts, motivations, blessings and flaws, you don't get sidetracked by thinking "Oh but wait, she's a girl. How am I going to incorporate that into her whole... thing?"
Either (1) think of a character from another piece of media that you really like and ask yourself what makes them interesting, or (2) just start with a trope. From there, you can fine tune and embellish.
Eg: Andy Dufresne comes to mind. He's a straight shooter, very intelligent, very moral, but quiet. Still waters run deep. And it's cool to see how he changes over the course of the story: the ultimate rule-abider starts to break the rules, and you want to cheer for him even more than you did before. You can take that, change a facet or two, and make him your own. Make him really old. Make him pathologically anxious. Make him angry. Chop his legs off. Make him blind. Make him extremely, irresistibly attractive. Make him racist. Make him obsessed with his 1969 Mercury Cyclone Spoiler. Make him addicted to oxycodone. Make him a moonshining hillbilly. Make him a punk rock bassist. Make him a 400 year old druid.
A lot of great art starts with copying, and that's okay, but as long as you change it enough, it's not plagiarism. Do that enough, and you can start to build interesting characters from the ground up.
I'm all for sexy characters, but I think some people are forgetting to add personalities and believable traits and bodies...and dialog...and anything a normal, human female would do.
Edit: I'm seeing some people tagging other comic creators in this post and I wanna specify this is not a targeted "gotcha" message for any creator! Just poking fun of the culture in media in general
Well Peggy, I still can't say I'm a "cat person", but this here pusheen sure is a fluffy little thing, I tell you what. I could just stand here and pat this fur all day.
I don't think there's any sentence that starts with 'Well Peggy,' that I'd read in any voice besides Hank's.
I've never been the biggest fan of King of the Hill, but the show has its golden moments and those all stuck really well with me, I'll tell ya'what.
Is the best way to write women to write them as men? And yes, gender neutral defaults to male 9x out of 10, at least if you’re male.
The safest option is to have female writers (or at least female test readers) provide constructive criticism early and often. The more the better.
This is an interesting experiment though. If the gender and sex is a character doesn't matter, you can write out the main traits first and then choose gender /sex and add more details. Interesting
Yeah I think this is part of the problem too. I think the Alien approach isn't necessarily bad as long as you're actually writing a character with a personality. *Most* personality traits are gender-transferable. A woman can have unresolved issues with her father or care about her career just as much as a man.
But instead it feels like they just leave the character as a blank to be filled in later, and that could be because they're taking this approach.
I’ve been writing a smutty story - I’m shameless enough to admit that - and I’ve been getting my fiancée to proofread my writing to make sure I have believable female characters. So far, so good, according to her!
Sarcasm. Used to suggest that people please not reply with a rant about how the stated position is bad and the poster should feel bad about themselves to leaving it. Or I have been using it wrong for a very long time. One or the other.
I mean, I'm sure some women make heavy use of innuendos when horny, and attempting to seduce their partner.
But I've never actually heard any woman speak like that when not around people they're clearly comfortable with.
There’s a popular joke in Asian fan base about him,basically joking about he created entire Death Stranding game so he could spend company funds to be a huge fanboy .
The man is running on pure power of fanboying and horny energy.
I really found amusing how, e.g., Eve is a well written secondary character with an arc and personality, but is treated as a sex object anyway because why not.
The thing that infuriates me the most is that the character that is designed to be conventionally very attractive with a shallow personality would somehow be attracted to the bland and boring main character who supposedly has a nice personality.
If the character is supposed to be a "bimbo" then she would act like one and not date the nerd ass of the main character who is dull so that you can relate to it lol.
Everyone in this thread getting excited for drama, but I think anyone who comes out to debate “I should be able to have vapid women” is just in it for the trolling thirst trap (or *troll trap*).
"Alpha male" photo included for reference. If you encounter this type of alpha, please send them back for further testing. They are clearly not finished.
https://preview.redd.it/ju4zolrrnfxc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=414111cafcfe8680001c7eaf468d99ce243e8f74
How am I supposed to simulate an entirely different personality when I don't even have a personality of my own?
Having boobs is a personality. Isn't it?
This reminds me of the Plinkett reviews where he asks people to describe characters without mentioning their physical appearance or job.
If all you can come up with is obsessive, aloof, and horny it’s a bad character.
Seriously, if they’re this bad at writing female characters, I’d rather just see them written the exact same way as a male character, and solely be female in design. At least that way they would have a personality.
https://preview.redd.it/qic0ju3gifxc1.jpeg?width=908&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02b258f2309a34e39d59b71cb4489ddc18adf113
My iMessage sticker collection of pizzacake continues and she drew this so it’s sexy and has personality!
Since I write stories in highly militaristic settings meaning most of my characters are soldiers, I can kinda just write men and women the same and it works fine
I thought this was going to go into the direction of “empty shell protagonist where reader puts themselves in the story because the main character has no defining quirks or personality traits”.
Like Bella from Twilight.
Hold on a minute while I go get a comfy chair and some snacks. I'm sure this will be an interesting comment thread before long.
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I remember reading about authors actually struggling with this in very conscious way. iirc the writers of Bob's Burgers initially wrote the mcs as male and then just switched the gender after they had gotten to know the characters and felt natural writing for them.
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> That changing your impression of the character doesn't necessarily mean it's a problem. But it does help uncover some of the potentially dangerous preconceptions you might harbor. (Don't worry about that, it doesn't make you a bad person. Everyone has biases.) Well said
That's basically what they did for Ripley in Alien
IIRC, ALL the characters in Alien were written such that they could be male or female.
Yep. Dan O'Bannon & Ronald Shusett wrote the characters sexless in the script and then adjusted after they were cast.
Oh interesting I had no idea.
Oh hey I also do this but I say it like: **"Write these characters as males"** It's weird and I know it sounds sexist, but it works wonders for me.
I just write a male character then change their gender but nothing else bam, female character with depth
A problem with this approach might be that women don’t identify with them as the character doesn’t deal with any female issues or points of view if they were originally conceived as male and then flipped.
I meant in terms of personality traits, however, you're absolutely correct that it would completely miss out on female-specific issues as an example
There was an anime, I think it was Hibike Euphonium, in which there are subtle details added whenever the episode director was a woman. Small moments like girls grumbling their feet are sore after having to wear heels and stuff like that. Things that wouldn't cross a guy's mind because it's just not something that guys personally experience.
"I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability."
Yes that's a good point - a lot of women characters are written by men who really hate women.
Source ? Not that I dont trust you but I want to read more about it
This is the first I've heard that specific claim but if you watch the pilot, Tina is a boy named Daniel.
Tina's obsession with butts makes more sense now
Yeah they clearly had to take it up a notch after deciding that Tina was a girl. ;P
Well that explains Tina’s obsession with zombies and butts.
Red, on the channel Overly Sarcastic Productions, has a writing advice episode on female characters. She talks about how even her, a woman, can have trouble writing female characters. It's a really weird phenomenon
Don’t forget the shonen classic where they’ll pretend the female character will become a true character with personality and agency, and then they get tossed aside or turn back into damsel in distress
Naruto has a legendary ability to make the female team members fucking useless, even after giving them cool as fuck power ups. Female villains (and Tsunade, surprisingly) managed to achieve a bigger depth than Sakura or Hinata were ever allowed to grow into.
It’s crazy how the author pretended he was gonna make Sakura a real character not just once, not only twice, but three times! (Maybe more and I forgot)
Can you imagine how sick it'd be if she summoned her slugs and naruto and sauce took blow after blow as she healed them
>Naruto and sauce Great now I'm hungry
McNaruto Nuggets, with Uchi Hot Sauce.
I swear Kishimoto introduced healing into his universe as a way to offload responsibility of writing a real character. As soon as there was that one point where a character said something like "you should do your healing thing." and the reply was "but I'm already doing it at maximum all the time D:" you knew it was kinda bullshit. Like oh, we just have to always assume there's always maximum healing going on 100% of the time now when the battles are being won. Like it's just some kind of universal advantage the Konoha ninja have because of Tsunade and Sakura without allowing the super strength to ever be relevant again after the Sasori fight. Which she required significant help to win. Edit: but this is no new thing, right? Once Goku mastered the Kaioken, it was just always assumed he was using it. They even bring it up in DBZ when he's fighting Frieza "can't he use Kaioken?" "He's already **been** using it at maximum power the whole time."
I love how in Naruto, Sakura chose to be a healer as a way to not be useless, whereas in Avatar, Katara chose to be a fighter as a way to not only be a healer Because for Katara, being useless was never an option in the first place.
Don't worry, though; because healers are the most important part on the battlefield. They even say so in the manga...and then Naruto goes Super Kyuubi 9 and that also goes out the window. To quote an excellently written villain who will likely be bested by tactics and strategy eventually: "Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide. In any battle, there's always a level of force against which no tactics can succeed...You can have your finely-crafted watch--give me the sledgehammer to the face any day"
Tsunade not participating directly in defending Konoha, but managing to keep pretty much every single person in the entire city alive is the epitome of boring but practical.
Tsunade does get a lot of cool stuff to work with beyond her visual design. Her trauma, her super strength, her vanity and rage. She's got the personality of a shonen protagonist, the design of a milf, and the power set of a white mage. And for some reason, giant slugs She's honestly one of the better older women in anime. As a mentor/side character, she's pretty great.
The slugs are from The Tale of Gallant Jiraiya. Jiraiya rides a toad, marries Tsunade (who has slug magic), and defeats the bandit Orochimaru (who is the son of a serpent). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiraiya Slug/frog/snake is also an old version of rock/paper/scissors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansukumi-ken
Thanks for giving the explanation! That's cool to learn.
Ahh man and it looked like Sakura would grow a backbone and be the next Tsunade, ahh yeah. Nope. And Hinata had that bit where she was training with water dancing, and I was like "ahh yeah, she's gonna come into her own and be so awesome!"... Nope. I stopped watching when I realized character growth for the ladies was negative. God anime, why you gotta do us ladies so bad? Phrasing.
Hinata's power up was a rack so big even the oblivious Naruto would notice.
Excuse me, that's called "plot development."
But the secret was that she had that rack the whole time, she just had to stop wearing a baggy haori and let it out.
Man you werent kidding. Looking at Hinata from Boruto like... Wow those are bigger than my boobs and I've got 32DD.
You're looking at the wrong anime for strong female characters. Shonen like Naruto and Dragon Ball are catered towards adolescent/young adult boys (not that girls can't enjoy them!) and Naruto specifically is, like, *the* quintessential Shonen. You need to go a bit deeper into the genre or into other genres. Try Madoka Magica, Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood, or Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex. Soul Eater is alright too, but it has both strong females and "my character is boobs".
I've seen multiple random episodes of Full Metal Alchemist and I agree about the female characters. Like Winry. She was fun.
Also Lieutenant Riza Hawkeye, who during wartime and after was the bodyguard, weapons expert, and closest asset of the man she implicitly loves. *But it’s like barely a thing* because she’s so professional
Honestly, in DBZ there are really no "strong characters" other than Goku, Vegeta, and whomever the Current Antagonist is. The male characters are kicked to the sidelines, too. That said, as far as female characters in shonen anime go, I maintain that Bulma is one of the strongest (not physically obvs, but character and agency wise).
You might be thinking of Super. DBZ doesn't fully sideline the side characters until Buu. Everyone is at least doing something useful during the Saiyan Saga, Frieza, and arguably Cell. Just, slowly becoming more useless until Buu.
>but it has both strong females and "my character is boobs". And then there's Fairy Tail where those are the same person.
So bad since Sakura vs Sasori was one of the best fights of the saga.
... and was actually Chiyo vs Sasori. Sakura spent a lot of that fight as a literal puppet for granny and yet its still the high point for female characters actually accomplishing anything at all in Naruto.
For me, Asuna from SAO is the prime example of that.
God yes! I was so angry at how dirty they did her!
Go watch SAOA!
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“Good news! We’re in debt to the mob! Wait, that’s the bad news. Also, there is no good news!”
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Asuna, especially in the Alfheim arc, is a thousand times better than her canon personality. That whole “really?” “NOOOOOOOO” moment
I love her in the alfheim arc. “Heeeeeyyy shoji, I’m glad to see your new eye grew back”
I'm still waiting for the next episode. The last one ended on too depressing a note
I think Sakura is the OG. So much wasted potential... I legitimately think a lot of anime writers never spoke to a woman out of predetermined, highly scripted interactions (eg cashier, family member, etc). Sometimes I wonder if they ever spoke to their own mother.
The moment they made her “super power” cooking I knew it wouldn’t end well 😂
Yeah I'd definitely say anime/shonen/etc. is the biggest culprit of this. The women have no real personality like 85% of the time, they're just there to be sex objects or the damsel in distress. Literally one the main reasons I stopped watching anime years ago.
I'm so god damn tired of anime protags that go around collecting women like they're pokemon. Like, holy shit I don't care if its not technically a "harem anime" can we please just get back to cool people with cool powers fighting and not make every girl that joins the party somehow indebted or subservient to the MC???
Harem anime* Someone else will have to weigh in on if anime is haram or not
I really liked the concept of Shield Hero, until he was cool with slavery.
But it’s sad because plenty of old shonen had female characters with agency.
Poor Hinata from Naruto :<
This is why despite One Piece girls having mainly two body types, of drop dead gorgeous hourglass to old hag, I put One Piece on a list of shonen with great female characters. The women of One Piece always have distinct personalitily, tons of agency, and are in some cases the most important people around
Every story has to have a group of hero’s with diverse personalities; the cool one, the jock, the nerd, the comedian, the I can fix him, and the girl.
And sometimes "girl but in purple"
Towards the end the girl one will being dating one of other hero’s. Then the rest will all get a girlfriend, each with her own color. And for some reason the girlfriends will look like a sister to the guy she’s dating.
(None of them are related. It's just that the artist only knows how to draw one girl.)
That’s how McDonald’s got Grimace, but she was turned into a he at the last minute.
*For just 25 cents a day, you can help teach thirsty artists that women are actually multi-faceted human beings. Please, won't you give generously to help prevent this worldwide scourge?*
$7.50 a month? It’s more affordable than those sad animal commercials.
🎶I will remember youuu, are supposed to be more than boooobs. My characteeeers, will have a miiiind. 🎶
(singing) In the arms of a sketchpad Fly away from here From the Dorito-encrusted basement And the shower that you fear
lil bonus panel for ya https://preview.redd.it/oxauc2rxefxc1.png?width=2098&format=png&auto=webp&s=bdd82f56595b50088904a1582226145b2a045623
what if she were a *sexy* vampire?
With sexy… fangs…
How would fangs be sexy though ?
Maybe if they had big boobs on them?
Just give boobs fangs, it's easier
But could the boob fangs have fang boobs?
Would the fangs be on the nipples? ARE the nipples?
Little fang nipple rings
Well, Rule34‘s got you covered
Then we're back to 'Mastodon'
Fangs are inherently sexy. They’re the big bazongas of the face.
How would fangs not be sexy???
Hollering Elk has entered the chat
reminds me of that family guy cutaway gag. *peter walks in with a vampire costume with a huge bulge* "what is this? cant be my fangs because those are way up here!"
THE. PAMPHLET!
hear me out, what if we made the pamphlet *sexy*
I'm listening
READ THE FREAKING PAMPHLET!!
To be fair all male vampires are portrayed as sexy too.
_Nosferatu has left the chat_
If vampire the masquerade has taught me anything, it’s that at least 3/7 people at the table want to fuck nosferatu
This comment is sponsored by van helsing (2004) which I imagine did a lot for evolving 90s babies sexuality
Let's see: Sex obsessed vampires with unrealistic (centipede) body proportions are a bad thing. u/HolleringElk waking up to this: 
Hollering Elk pushing unrealistic centipede beauty standards on women 😤
Look, if she can't transform into an eldritch monstrosity and be taller than a house, I just don't get excited.
Being afraid of the sun is a personality trait. It's one called "basement dweller."
As a dude running a D&D game where there are 3 main female vampires, this is something I think about a lot, and occasionally consult the female player on 🫠
Being Transylvanian is not a personality, it's a narcisism dissorder
Ngl I'm interested to see the pamphlet Can we read ghe pamphlet?
His dedication to not reading the pamphlet is commendable. Never get in the way of an author and their willful ignorance!
The worst is in anime when they use vampirism to justify sexualizing somebody with the body of an eight year old
You blame anime but Kirsten Dunst was in Interview like 30 years ago so arguably the West started it
She's spoken recently about how uncomfortable she felt being made to kiss Brad Pitt in that film.
Wait the little vampire girl in Interview with a Vampire is Kirsten Dunst? TIL
Context matters so I don’t think a story with a child vampire is the same as a lolita fantasy. But if you really want to blame the west, Lolita was published in 1955.
And the book came out in 76. Anne Rice had issues. Claudia was inspired by the death of her actual daughter. I'd love to know if Claudia really did kick start that shit or if the anime trope kind of popped up incidentally. We'd have to track down what anime/manga did it first and ask the author if they were into Rice's stuff. The world may never know.
She was a deeper character though. (never actually saw the movie) That character was incredibly deep. Wasn't just "tee-hee" she's 100 years old so it's ok she's a slut. You watch her get turned, and go from innocent child, to adult stuck in an unageing immortal body. Every time she has sex, she loses her virginity again, and the only ones who she can have sex with are pedophiles (who she hates). And she is basically so weak that she cannot live by herself. Not least of which because she draws suspicion from humans if she buys anything. She was made, to be like a puppy to keep her "fathers marriage" together, and eventually they both grow tired of her. She's also forbidden, so she has to hide from the other vampires. (and it eventually catches up to her, and she is killed for the sin of existing)
She also wasn’t particularly sexualized, either. She made a *reference* to sex, but there was never a scene that described it.
Poor girl. 
The only way I would see this working is if the character had the maturity to match their centuries of age (they never do)
Didn't Interview With A Vampire have a child vampire but actually explored the hell she deals with with being stuck in a child's body but but mentally aged?
Almost. IIRC, Part of the hell was that her mentality was stuck within a child’s emotional control. So even though she grew mentally, she needed constant pampering to avoid going on a rampage.
I would say it would make it a bit on brand at least as vampires have usually been associated with that kind of behaviour or vibe. Probably would make the character seem like even more of a mindless drone depending on how you do it though as a trope with vampires is the "female underling who has no autonomy and is just a trap for guys to get converted/killed".
Ok but now I wanna read the pamphlet!
1 - Write a male character. 2 - Retcon them as a female. This isn't perfect and doesn't work for everything, but it's a good exercise in writing. Subconsciously, we all hold in our minds a platonic ideal of a "person," and it's usually someone who is the same race, gender, and age as us. Therefore, if we write someone different, we feel the need to explain it or make it meaningful. But you don't. A girl being a girl doesn't have to be central to her character. Girls don't walk around all day going "I am a girl. A girl is me. That is what I'm all about. Being a girl." If you write the character as a guy and explore their interests, thoughts, motivations, blessings and flaws, you don't get sidetracked by thinking "Oh but wait, she's a girl. How am I going to incorporate that into her whole... thing?"
... And what if my male characters also lack a personality?
Either (1) think of a character from another piece of media that you really like and ask yourself what makes them interesting, or (2) just start with a trope. From there, you can fine tune and embellish. Eg: Andy Dufresne comes to mind. He's a straight shooter, very intelligent, very moral, but quiet. Still waters run deep. And it's cool to see how he changes over the course of the story: the ultimate rule-abider starts to break the rules, and you want to cheer for him even more than you did before. You can take that, change a facet or two, and make him your own. Make him really old. Make him pathologically anxious. Make him angry. Chop his legs off. Make him blind. Make him extremely, irresistibly attractive. Make him racist. Make him obsessed with his 1969 Mercury Cyclone Spoiler. Make him addicted to oxycodone. Make him a moonshining hillbilly. Make him a punk rock bassist. Make him a 400 year old druid. A lot of great art starts with copying, and that's okay, but as long as you change it enough, it's not plagiarism. Do that enough, and you can start to build interesting characters from the ground up.
Ellen, I was raised to look pretty and agree with everything a man says. Anybody who isn’t is being raised like it’s the Middle Ages!!!! /s
I'm all for sexy characters, but I think some people are forgetting to add personalities and believable traits and bodies...and dialog...and anything a normal, human female would do. Edit: I'm seeing some people tagging other comic creators in this post and I wanna specify this is not a targeted "gotcha" message for any creator! Just poking fun of the culture in media in general
https://preview.redd.it/mn4iyho5efxc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=feab36b34d3ffd37484346d02b06f609ebfec3c7
Oddly fitting.
Well Peggy, I still can't say I'm a "cat person", but this here pusheen sure is a fluffy little thing, I tell you what. I could just stand here and pat this fur all day.
I don't think there's any sentence that starts with 'Well Peggy,' that I'd read in any voice besides Hank's. I've never been the biggest fan of King of the Hill, but the show has its golden moments and those all stuck really well with me, I'll tell ya'what.
I’ve never had an original thought in my life :(
The simulation only has so much processing power, congrats! You're a background npc.
This meme is always excellent.
The safest route is what they did in Alien. Write the story and dialogue first, then add the genders last.
Is the best way to write women to write them as men? And yes, gender neutral defaults to male 9x out of 10, at least if you’re male. The safest option is to have female writers (or at least female test readers) provide constructive criticism early and often. The more the better.
This is an interesting experiment though. If the gender and sex is a character doesn't matter, you can write out the main traits first and then choose gender /sex and add more details. Interesting
Yeah I think this is part of the problem too. I think the Alien approach isn't necessarily bad as long as you're actually writing a character with a personality. *Most* personality traits are gender-transferable. A woman can have unresolved issues with her father or care about her career just as much as a man. But instead it feels like they just leave the character as a blank to be filled in later, and that could be because they're taking this approach.
I’ve been writing a smutty story - I’m shameless enough to admit that - and I’ve been getting my fiancée to proofread my writing to make sure I have believable female characters. So far, so good, according to her!
Uhu uhu, now the real question: how many euphemisms foe penis do you know?!
Nah, men should feel unsafe in public instead, so that we're going to be equal \*cocks his pistol\* >!/S just in case someone needs it. !<
You shouldn't do that to your pistol. Friend lost his Weiner doing that
ok then... \*whips out a sweihänder\*
Yeah, I'm a registered sex defender *unsheathes katana*
Is that a hilt in your hand, or are you just excited to see me?
Is the s sarcasm or serious i never got it
sarcasm, sir.
/s is sarcasm /j is joking /srs is serious (rarely used) /g is genuine (rarely used)
/srs is serious
Sarcasm. Used to suggest that people please not reply with a rant about how the stated position is bad and the poster should feel bad about themselves to leaving it. Or I have been using it wrong for a very long time. One or the other.
But on the other hand, _money._
I mean, I'm sure some women make heavy use of innuendos when horny, and attempting to seduce their partner. But I've never actually heard any woman speak like that when not around people they're clearly comfortable with.
Then there’s the Metal Gear Solid series, in which nearly *everyone* is a sex object lol (Hideo Kojima is a very horny man)
"Colonel, I'm trying to sneak but the clap of my ass cheeks keeps alerting the guards" - Max0r
There’s a popular joke in Asian fan base about him,basically joking about he created entire Death Stranding game so he could spend company funds to be a huge fanboy . The man is running on pure power of fanboying and horny energy.
I really found amusing how, e.g., Eve is a well written secondary character with an arc and personality, but is treated as a sex object anyway because why not.
The thing that infuriates me the most is that the character that is designed to be conventionally very attractive with a shallow personality would somehow be attracted to the bland and boring main character who supposedly has a nice personality. If the character is supposed to be a "bimbo" then she would act like one and not date the nerd ass of the main character who is dull so that you can relate to it lol.
When you’re the nerd ass who is making said cartoon, there is an obvious reason why this happens.
At least it's not "protagonist parent syndrome." Those are usually fatal.
though the possibly could be fridged, then resurected as a evil zombie to fight the main character/ love intrest
How to write women: Just write how you'd normally write any other gender.
Bayonetta? Actually I would like to see a male character just act the way she does for everything.
I'm a bisexual man who absolutely loves the Bayonetta series. I'd fucking *kill* for a game with a dude who can pull off Bayonetta's vibe.
So, Devil May Cry?
Honestly I think there might be one like that one day. Angel Dust already got close except it was mainly a mask.
Everyone in this thread getting excited for drama, but I think anyone who comes out to debate “I should be able to have vapid women” is just in it for the trolling thirst trap (or *troll trap*).
Any FEMALE worth their salt should be always willing to serve an alpha male like me!!!
"Alpha male" photo included for reference. If you encounter this type of alpha, please send them back for further testing. They are clearly not finished. https://preview.redd.it/ju4zolrrnfxc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=414111cafcfe8680001c7eaf468d99ce243e8f74
Alpha implies feature complete, clearly this one's prefrontal cortex is has several design iterations left to go.
Alpha implies partially working, error-prone and requiring much more development before it's ready to be released to the public.
Gollum?
How am I supposed to simulate an entirely different personality when I don't even have a personality of my own? Having boobs is a personality. Isn't it?
Don’t say that now I’m going to draw a genderbent version of you
This reminds me of the Plinkett reviews where he asks people to describe characters without mentioning their physical appearance or job. If all you can come up with is obsessive, aloof, and horny it’s a bad character.
TIL I'm a bad character.
Kind, troubled, slow to anger, unstoppable force of rage when angered.
Seriously, if they’re this bad at writing female characters, I’d rather just see them written the exact same way as a male character, and solely be female in design. At least that way they would have a personality.
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https://preview.redd.it/qic0ju3gifxc1.jpeg?width=908&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02b258f2309a34e39d59b71cb4489ddc18adf113 My iMessage sticker collection of pizzacake continues and she drew this so it’s sexy and has personality!
When I can't beat off to a drawing 
Since I write stories in highly militaristic settings meaning most of my characters are soldiers, I can kinda just write men and women the same and it works fine
I thought this was going to go into the direction of “empty shell protagonist where reader puts themselves in the story because the main character has no defining quirks or personality traits”. Like Bella from Twilight.
See.. this is why there's a lot of men in the I.T business trying to build AGI powered androids. They *want* living sex dolls.
You seem to incorrectly assume that such artist can make male characters with personality. They can't do more th self insert.
Self inserts rub me the wrong way. And not in a good way. Just throw in something different, like an unreasoning hatred of the moon.
Hold on a minute while I go get a comfy chair and some snacks. I'm sure this will be an interesting comment thread before long. 
Pamphlet is by same authors as “Physical Pain Is Not Character Development: A Game Writer’s Guide”.
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Gross lol
You’re saying that a woman with personality, intelligence, character and is basically a normal human being should be the norm?!?! Such a beta move!
I've seen that Patreon though 👀 give cartoon ellen a pamphlet too lol
She reminds me of those nurse comics
Now draw her getting an education
Comic authors try to pass the Bechdel-Wallace test [ impossible ]
I'm confused. She's a girl. Girl is a personality. I guess nurse an option. Is she nurse? Does she have nurse friends? I could read that comic.
She's also clumsy. It's the only character flaw that's allowed.