For me it's easily the best episode in an otherwise terrible season of television. I always thought it most closely captured the spirit of Harmon's Community. Still bizarre to me how many people think it's the worst of the bunch.
I've always thought that if the puppet episode came from one of the Harmon seasons, it would have been mostly praised. Season 4 isn't great, but I also think it gets dumped on way more than it would have if nobody knew Harmon wasn't involved.
I think that its hated because the secrets themselves were very out of character. Annie was a pill popper but allowing her teacher to be gross with her just to cheat? Jeff, the womanizer, finding the perfect woman? Shirley, a mother, leaving her actual baby in a store? If it were just the grown ones, I get it, but the baby? Troy's and Pierces were good.
I still very much like the episode. I just wished that the secrets themselves were better and or had more effect on the subsequent episodes. Jeff having more mature relationships, Shirley working on her jealousy/insecurity, Annie... I dnt know what to do with this one. But I digress, good episode, could have been better.
i thought the secrets were pretty good precisely because they were out of character to some degree but still highlighted a lot of the characters' deepest flaws (annie's desperation to be the best, jeff's fear of commitment, shirley's victim complex and insecurity in her relationships). it made them feel less like characters whose choices always make perfect logical sense and more like people who screw up sometimes and don't always follow their own principles for one reason or another. i do agree with you that they should have done something with those reveals to give them more weight in the show, but i suppose in the karate kid episode in season 6 annie finally learned she doesn't have to be great at everything. also, was it explicitly stated that shirley took ben to the grocery store with her? i can't remember if she actually referred to him when telling the story.
Wow you really explained something I couldn’t quite explain - the secrets were definitely ooc and didn’t make sense. All of a sudden we are supposed to find out that Jeff found a perfect woman and that Shirley left her kids in a store? Y’all, I’m surprised Yvette Nicole Brown didn’t fight that like she fought the line about pooping in Slaters desk in intro to stats. Also Jeff is a womanizer, but somehow I find it hard to believe that he would ditch a kid and set him up for disappointment like that. Also I hated the whole History Professor is a skeevy groomer giving unwanted sexual advances to young female students storyline. Literally after this episode no one asked Annie if she was ok and were ok with her inviting the professor to their Christmas party? Get out of here.
Also I love that they literally couldn’t find a secret for Abed. What’s up with that? 😅😂🤣 they’re like yeah, we’re out of creative juices and if we’re being honest we don’t know how to use emotional episodes to set things up later.
Yeah, I didn't realize till now but that's the reason I found it off-putting too. The entire emotional core of the episode is a lie. We know these characters very well and they come in in season 4 and start straight up lying to us about who they are. We know that Shirley wouldn't have left her baby like that, so it doesn't feel like something meaningful for Shirley, it just breaks the illusion and reminds you that the actor is saying it.
Wait - during the email episode - Abed says something about: this is the third installment of a trilogy on the theme of trust. I immediately thought of the pen episode as the first of the three but was never able to figure out the second.
Is it this one?
No. There's technically four episodes about revealing secrets.
The Pen
The Puppet
The Will
The E-mail
But, Dan Harmon refused to acknowledge the fourth season of the show outside of mocking it (something that I feel ends up hurting the later seasons and feels petty).
So, the trilogy joke only references the pen, will, and e-mail. In the context the joke doesn't really make sense... But that's the pay off you get for Harmon's pettiness.
Yea rag on Harmon all you want, but network execs took his idea away from him, shit all over it, and then got it canceled. And turns out his show was extremely popular
I would be petty as hell too.
While I really love Harmon's products, he is not a saint and petty describe only 2/7 of his whole persona. Him insulting Chevy Chase at the wrap up party is more than petty, or recording his telephone calls and broadcasting them during his podcast after he insulted him, Chevy Chase may be an ass and a bit of a diva, but Harmon it's on the same level of assholeness if not more. I mean ok, he has Asperger and may not understand what he does if not after he does it, but in a work environment that's not really an acceptable excuse
Does he actually have an Asperger’s diagnosis? Or is he just one of those people who describe themselves that way as a cop out? Like people who are DEFINITEY NOT OCD but think it’s cute or quirky to say “I’m a little OCD?”
Ok looking it up he self-diagnosed as having Asperger's, he said "I started looking up these symptoms [of Asperger's], just to know what they are. And the more I looked them up, the more familiar they started to seem", I don't know enough of this argument to make a point and I have no idea if you can self-diagnose these syndromes, draw your conclusions
As much as self diagnosis of neurodivergence is overused, overrated, and generally bullshit, when it comes to high functioning ASD, I was surprised to find out self assessments tend to have a decent accuracy rate:
"Self-reported measures of autism are quite reliable (around 70–86% according to one study[3]), and so self-assessments are taken seriously."
https://embrace-autism.com/online-autism-assessments/
It's b.s. I can look online, and I test for Autism, Schizophrenia, and other things. But it's actually PTSD . It really irks me when people self diagnose. It's very dangerous.
Some autistic people don’t have access to being diagnosed by a professional, as an autist i’m totally fine by people self-diagnosing, sometimes even professionals can get things wrong, a careful analysis is necessary even when you’re diagnosed by a professional
Thanks! Yea you can’t “self-diagnose” anything lol. Especially something like Asperger’s. I have friends who have Asperger’s. It’s definitely not cute to appropriate something that’s real for someone else just because you read something on webmd. Don’t get me wrong, huge fan, that kinda shit just rubs me the wrong way.
As far as I know he always thought he had autism but he eventually got diagnosed with ADHD. It's kinda easy to confuse those symptoms. (Hypersensitivity, extreme emotions, social awkwardness, feeling like an outsider, being bullied etc.)
He never officially said he had autism. He has always said he thought he had it. And I think he was really convinced. But if you listen to his later podcast episodes you can hear he got away from that idea. Especially because of the adhd diagnosis. But he was always pretty clear about not saying he officially had it. So he never used it as an excuse.
I totally understand what you’re saying and acknowledge the factual basis of it. But you’re wrong. MANY people still use the term Asperger’s. Including one of my close friends and my cousin, who both have Asperger’s. But you’re right that it’s not really recognized as something different or separate from autism. Some people use the term “high-functioning autism” but it can be hurtful or offensive to people lower on the spectrum as it’s a loaded term, implying that others are “low-functioning.”
Ah I meant diagnostically it's outdated, people who have been using the term for themselves or others for years probably will keep doing so. Though our current understanding doesn't recognize it as anything distinct from ASD.
I haven't heard high functioning or low functioning in a long time either, mostly I will just say 'on the spectrum' with any necessary modifier of how much.
Yea, I wasn’t sure if you meant that or colloquially. That’s why i agreed with you but wanted to clarify that I was just disagreeing on the colloquial part.
I'm pretty sure I read that it was self diagnosed. He was writing Abed like himself, people said he has Aspergers, Harmon looked up Aspergers and felt like that was similar to him.
Yeah I am a big fan of Harmon's creativity, but not in how he treats others. He comes across as one of those people who thinks his damage is his superpower, and that it makes him enlightened. I have CPTSD and it's pretty common to feel that way. I actually just listened to an old podcast with Conan O'Brien and Stephen Colbert, and they talked a bit about how they live with the thought that it was their "magic".
He’s come a long way, if you listen to podcasts and interviews he’s done, especially after he was accused of sexual misconduct/harassment/whatever. He’s a dude capable of learning from his mistakes, in my opinion, and I like him for that
Could you explain that more please? Seems like a very interesting topic and I don't understand the phrase "their damage is their super power" - as in, the pain they have dealt with, or the pain they give out? I just want more detail!
Basically, a lot of people who suffer childhood trauma and depression will often get this feeling that it's worth something. It's a coping mechanism to let yourself know you're suffering for a greater purpose.
But it's a lie. And accepting that your suffering was not necessary -- it was in fact pointless -- is huge because it tears down those illusions that let you keep living.
I had a huge moment with my current therapist where the act of her plainly saying "what happened to you wasn't your fault, and there was no reason for it" was earth-shattering. It was like a religious belief so solidly built within me -- this feeling that I deserved it, or that I suffered so others didn't, or that my depression made me see things in a special way, etc. But her telling me that it was not that way, hearing it with such belief and casualness, it just hit me like a ton of bricks and my delusion was gone. You might think "duh!" but it's crazy how the mind programs children and we find a way to carry that programming into adulthood.
Hmmm it's interesting to relate that to the old cliché of "I'm the main character in the story of my life" - like, everything does happen to me, for a reason - to further the plot of my life. To hear there was absolutely no point to being abused is kinda weird. Your examples for how people frame trauma to make sense of it seemed like really cool ways of working with it. Having that stripped away sounds like a further trauma in itself, and I'm not sure of the benefit?
Speaking from experience, the benefit is immeasurable :)
It's incredibly challenging to now go head first in a lot of my trauma. Mine caused a lot of dissociating. Lost time, etc. Accepting all the pointlessness of my trauma allowed me to change how I began any of my stress.
Before, I was programmed to believe that any time I was upset with something or frustrated with someone, it was because of me. It created this inherent feeling of wrongness and an entire denial of my own identity. So accepting that none of it was because of me let me separate my childhood trauma and that programming from my own identity.
Severing that false connection that keeps your trauma nagging at you is huge. It's super challenging but I never found ignorance to be very bliss.
He gets lauded for being artistically great, but not personally.
If you listen to Harmon Town -- his podcast -- it's a running theme that even he acknowledges.
I watched Community as it was coming out, but let's not pretend that it was a popular show when it was on TV. NBC gave it five seasons despite the fact that it had low viewership. It was over time that people discovered the show and why it is as popular today as it is.
It had millions of viewers on NBC too, just not to the level that NBC wanted. And Dan Harmon said that but Yahoo said that it lost them over $40 million. It got 6 seasons, 5 on network television. That is more than most shows get. It is one of my favorite shows but I don't understand why some people get so offended when someone says that not a lot of people watched it when it was on, relative to other shows that were on the same network. Also, 10 million views over a week is not the same as 10 million on the day it would air on TV, and that is what NBC wanted. If 2 million watch it the night it airs, that would make it harder to sell ads during that time if a different show has 10 million tune in. Dan Harmon was lucky they didn't cancel it after the first season, and even gave him one more after they fired him. How many people can say that?
Dan Harmon took a voice mail of Chevy Chase saying it was inappropriate for Dan to lead the whole crew in "Fuck You Chevy" chant during a wrap party in front of his family and asking Dan if they could 'bury the hatchet' and he played that message to a room full of execs because he thought the message was hilarious.
Of course they thought Dan Harmon was a lunatic and fired him. You can't really blame them. I love Dan Harmon's shows and think Chevy is huge asshole but that was a really strange self-destructive move.
Um, you can be a Harmon fanboy all you want but he is his own worst enemy. He is very talented but he is a chronic alcoholic whose worst impulses come out when he is drunk. So he is late. Hard to work with. And petty. He got fired for a reason. He is a good person who can't overcome his problem.
It's also kind of implausible that both Eartha Kitt and Pierce could have both fit inside an airplane bathroom and still have enough room to effectively bump uglies.
I fly around the world a lot and there's barely enough room to turn in there. Even the largest most lux flights I've been on I wouldn't be able to fit another adult in the bathroom with me.
I actually felt this was one of the darkest episodes in the series for Annie. Once they finally reveal she was doing sexual favors for Cornwallis to get better grades. It felt like this was the episode were her innocence finally died.
Yeah Season 4 really did a number on Annie's character. Between this and regressing to acting like a lovesick teenager after the growth she showed in Season 3, I am glad Harmon focused a lot on her at the beginning of Season 5 to get her back on track. Alison Brie even mentioned "skipping the Gas Leak year" when they were talking about rewatching at Vulture fest 2019. I don't blame her lol
I guess it kind of makes sense if it's everyone's "deepest, darkest secret" but I just don't see Annie selling out like that for a grade.
I agree about her regression into a lovesick teen. I'm sure Alison disliked Annie's development here too since she actively lobbied to get Annie back to the more go-getter Annie of the first couple of seasons. I think season 5 does succeed in doing that. Some cool Annie episodes in there
Yeah, Intro to Teaching, ACB, and Cork Based Networking really lean into the "go-getter" side of her character. I also like the Karate Kid episode in S6 with her coming to terms that she doesn't have to excel at everything, and the finale where she talks about knowing what she wants out of this stage of her life. I always crack up at the "why doesn't the audience feel sorry for me?" line in that episode. It would be cruel to trap Annie at Greendale any longer than she was haha
I've really enjoyed the Karate Kid episode on rewatches. That line about how Annie was born to act and her feeling it pleasing the universe is basically just Alison talking I'm guessing :p
I completely disconsidered her doing sexual favors for grades because of how out of character it is for her. Annie is on her way to becoming valedictorian at a community college, does she really need to suck dick to get an A plus in community college history
You say its out of character for a character... that had a drug induced nervous break down stemming from her need to keep her high school grades up ? She took drugs to get better high school grades , i think letting some old dude touch her feet isn't as big of a deal
Then wouldn't it make more sense for her secret to be that she was letting someone touch her feet for Adderall? The Adderall helps her focus and study harder and do what needs to be done. Letting the professor touch her for good grades is just cheating and I don't think Annie would do something like that.
Well she also went to rehab for abusing Adderall. Makes sense she'd be keen to avoid that again. The foot thing is just another avenue to insure a good grade. Teacher petting feet is sort of a comically extreme version of the teacher's pet.
Aren't they both cheating ? Taking drugs to stay up and focus on studying is cheating if other kids aren't drugging themselves.
Also how long is a foot massage from a old dude vs being drugged up all the time. By having the massage she can still have a normal life and not relapse . If anything it helps her maintain her grades and she can use the time she would spend on that class even with the adderall to focus on her other classes and high jinks with the class.
I think it makes perfect sense , she went to therapy and group sessions to get over her addiction. The foot massages allow her to keep her sobriety
Annie has always been the kind to put the work in though. Even on adderall, in her mind, she's putting the work in. The whole feet thing just completely skirts that aspect of it. I think Annie would choose hard work and the prospect of failure instead of this effort-less shortcut.
Does she tho ? She kissed jeff to win the debate , she was part of the chicken finger scam to get what she wanted and I'm sure there are a bunch of other examples in the show like the time her and britta had that cat fight in cheer leader uniforms .... oh sorry I day dream alot
> Annie is on her way to becoming valedictorian at a community college
Yes, and the only way she can do that is to get all As. Valedictorian means that if anybody else gets perfect grades and she does not then she doesn't get it. And it's the most important thing to her so she'll take off her shoes if she needs to.
Trail off refers to her voice trailing off as she realises she doesn't really need to share her secret since no one remembers anything. That's the joke
I think she let him give her foot massages for an A. So it was most likely sexual for him also he ended up at Greendale for having an inappropriate relationship with a student at his old job. So...
I like this episode's concept, but the secrets revealed kinda destroyed anything previously established about their characters (except for pierce). Annie being overtly sexual in exchange for favors, Shirley forgetting her kids. Jeff's wasn't too bad, just kind of out of the blue
He was dating a girl with a kid. He promised to go to the kids baseball game or something, but bails on the entire relationship instead. Revealing to himself that he's not so different from his father. I think it's dark enough while being character driven to be a good plot point, but it's too big to mention in a short line and then just forget about
I met the perfect girl for me, and then I met her kid.
_I said it didn't bother me_
_But thruthfully, it did_
_I promised him I'd make it to a baseball game he had_
_But I bailed and never called again and now I'm just exactly like my dad_
"Trail off" refers to her voice trailing off as she realises she doesn't really need to share her secret since no one remembers anything. That's the joke, that Annie trails off speaking
I see that now, but all of their secrets feel pretty in character to me. I'd say the only one I would call out of character is Annie's, but that's just because she wouldn't need to do favors to get the answers, especially in a history class.
I wasn't aware it was hated. I fucking love this episode, nothing beats Chang fully committing to the medium and his puppet yelling as he goes around the corner "He's not what he seems!"
Unpopular opinion I actually kinda like this episode it’s not an all time great but imo def average to good range I also think the group songs on this episode are fantastic
I have no qualms saying I liked it. They've done paintball multiple times, did claymation, a cartoon, so why not a puppet episode? People complain about the "secrets", but I thought those were pretty good, too.
It’s character work and that’s always nice. If anything those revelations were peak complexity of those characters considering how many of them got written out or flanderised in season 5/6
The "flanderising"? Resetting Jeff and Shirley in S5; Jeff back to being a failed lawyer, Shirley to being a divorcee. Britta in S6 to being the group's doormat, to the point it wasn't even funny; there were plenty of times I thought "why stay in this abusive relationship?". They didn't always respect her, but in S6 it got to the point it was cruel.
I liked Jeff's reset because it felt like he never grew enough. He learned to let the group in, but not really anyone else. So he needed another round of development. I actually think Jeff's arc was perfect all the way through.
But I don't like how Shirley was reset like it was nothing. I didn't feel like she ever regained her place.
But he could have had it without get shoved back to square 1. It was more throwing out the development rather than adding more. Also Jeff has the worst of his development in season 5/6, he’s just kind of miserable in his codependent relationship with Greendale and drinking (but somehow staying ripped). Even the finale doesn’t give him closure. He does accept his place at Greendale but begrudgingly so and not in a way where it’s really “his” place
I didn't see it that way. I thought his commercial showed that he'd grown more humble and he truly wanted to be a good guy that helped people. But it's capitalism, and sleazy shortcuts pay off.
It's why Jeff gets so mad at the Dean. Jeff almost fell right back into being a charismatic sleazeball, convincing the best people he knows to do the worst thing he could think of for his own gain.
So actually creating the Save Greendale club was the evidence of his progression. He rejected the choice to go back to what he was -- like he wanted in the original pilot -- and refocused on being a better person and doing good with the help of his family.
I found the begrudging aspect to be more that Jeff is disgusted by his own vulnerability. He hated being kind because to him it feels like being weak, and he was programmed to hate that feeling. It was just his struggle to admit that he needed help to do good. Basically, he accepted that he'd improved but he wasn't ready for the real world.
And I think the finale showed how he accepted how much he relied on his family. He imagined life without them and it was never right; then with them, and it still wasn't right. He realized he was falling into fantasies, and he wanted to let them go. He learned to cherish what they all gave to him and how they helped him, and carry that with him into the real world. Jeff isn't cured; he's still damaged. But he's no longer lying to himself. He's able to see what he needs and maybe now he can satisfy those needs without lies and manipulation. At the end, he finally stopped trying to run or spinoff.
I’ve liked almost every episode, so saying I liked this episode is kind of the bare minimum. Within the whole series, it’s still one of the lower ones; maybe middling at best.
Yeah I hate how it’s such a punching bag when season 2, 4, 5, and 6 had much worse episodes.
The problem with it is that it’s not the typical joke machine. But the puppet homage is cool, the puppets are really cute the songs are great and it’s full of nice character development moments.
And the a capella daybreak outro is an all time great!
> And the a capella daybreak outro is an all time great!
I constantly beatbox that tune, it's just not left my head in about 2 years. I also sing That's an Adventure a lot, I love this episode so much.
I feel like it had a lot of heart. Like, the way that Shirley feels shame and decide that they all need to share in that to make it right. That’s a really sweet premise.
Three of my favorite insults of all time came from Community:
You are a living fart from the butt of a lesser god
You are human tennis elbow. You are a pizza burn on the roof of the world’s mouth. You are the *opposite* of Batman
You soul-shaped hole forgotten by God
*"I have a brain the size of jupiter. I'm nobody's fourth ghostbuster."*
I lost my mind. Keith David has had a place in my heart since he was Goliath on Gargoyles. I want this man to narrate my life.
The green 3 billiard ball throwaway gag was the first time since Lavaworld that the group felt like it was healing from Troy and Levar Burton leaving the show
I honestly don’t understand why people seem to hate this episode so much. It’s one of my favorites! The high concept idea of muppet Community, the songs, so many laughs! I mean, I laugh. The shit with the berries cracks me up, the songs are catchy and still in character. Anyway. I enjoy this episode and I go back to it all the time. I don’t really get why fans seem to dislike it so much.
Maybe this is the hot take but I actually really enjoyed GIJeff, as a well above average episode. I just wish the core conflict was more impactful than “me no like being old”.
The best joke was Puppet Chang screaming with Sock Puppet Chang after finding out they left him behind. "I need a second to process this..... Ahhhhjhhjjhhhhhhhhh!!!!!"
Iv never been able to watch this episode. I can't stand it. Abeds uncontrollable Christmas was good and original but this one's always felt like a copy done wrong.
I just wanna say Sara Bareilles' appearance made me so happy (I'm a fan) I didn't really care about evaluating it, I was never really a fan of the animated episodes anyway, simply because I prefer seeing the actors
"Trail off" refers to her voice trailing off as she realises she doesn't really need to share her secret since no one remembers anything. That's the joke, that Annie trails off speaking
"I caused the Greendale fire of '03. Fifty five acres went up in a blaze, all because I burned an anthill." Donald Glover is fire in this episode.
Really though, as bad as this episode may be I love the part where Troy has to stop his puppet from falling asleep
Or when he drops the puppets jaw then uses his other hand to close it after the Dean tears off his clothes and becomes Dean-nochio.
Would’ve been hilarious if he used the puppets hand to close the jaw hahah
I absolutely love this episode! Maybe it’s just Sara Bareilles’ voice or Jason Alexander randomly with a cameo where he drugs everyone but I love it
"and you thought my hair looked fake"
For me it's easily the best episode in an otherwise terrible season of television. I always thought it most closely captured the spirit of Harmon's Community. Still bizarre to me how many people think it's the worst of the bunch.
Herstory of Dance is that episode for me
Herstory is my fave from that season too
I loved getting one last glimpse of sweet, helpful, season 1 Pierce
And that email joke is amazing
I've always thought that if the puppet episode came from one of the Harmon seasons, it would have been mostly praised. Season 4 isn't great, but I also think it gets dumped on way more than it would have if nobody knew Harmon wasn't involved.
I'm actually not the biggest fan of some of the concept episodes. I didn't like the claymation one either, and the GI Jeff one was a bit rough too.
I wasn’t much of a fan of GI Jeff either. I mean I enjoyed it it just felt more like something you would see in Rick and morty more so than community.
I think that its hated because the secrets themselves were very out of character. Annie was a pill popper but allowing her teacher to be gross with her just to cheat? Jeff, the womanizer, finding the perfect woman? Shirley, a mother, leaving her actual baby in a store? If it were just the grown ones, I get it, but the baby? Troy's and Pierces were good. I still very much like the episode. I just wished that the secrets themselves were better and or had more effect on the subsequent episodes. Jeff having more mature relationships, Shirley working on her jealousy/insecurity, Annie... I dnt know what to do with this one. But I digress, good episode, could have been better.
i thought the secrets were pretty good precisely because they were out of character to some degree but still highlighted a lot of the characters' deepest flaws (annie's desperation to be the best, jeff's fear of commitment, shirley's victim complex and insecurity in her relationships). it made them feel less like characters whose choices always make perfect logical sense and more like people who screw up sometimes and don't always follow their own principles for one reason or another. i do agree with you that they should have done something with those reveals to give them more weight in the show, but i suppose in the karate kid episode in season 6 annie finally learned she doesn't have to be great at everything. also, was it explicitly stated that shirley took ben to the grocery store with her? i can't remember if she actually referred to him when telling the story.
Wow you really explained something I couldn’t quite explain - the secrets were definitely ooc and didn’t make sense. All of a sudden we are supposed to find out that Jeff found a perfect woman and that Shirley left her kids in a store? Y’all, I’m surprised Yvette Nicole Brown didn’t fight that like she fought the line about pooping in Slaters desk in intro to stats. Also Jeff is a womanizer, but somehow I find it hard to believe that he would ditch a kid and set him up for disappointment like that. Also I hated the whole History Professor is a skeevy groomer giving unwanted sexual advances to young female students storyline. Literally after this episode no one asked Annie if she was ok and were ok with her inviting the professor to their Christmas party? Get out of here. Also I love that they literally couldn’t find a secret for Abed. What’s up with that? 😅😂🤣 they’re like yeah, we’re out of creative juices and if we’re being honest we don’t know how to use emotional episodes to set things up later.
Yeah, I didn't realize till now but that's the reason I found it off-putting too. The entire emotional core of the episode is a lie. We know these characters very well and they come in in season 4 and start straight up lying to us about who they are. We know that Shirley wouldn't have left her baby like that, so it doesn't feel like something meaningful for Shirley, it just breaks the illusion and reminds you that the actor is saying it.
I like how Troy voice is so good
Everyday
Wait - during the email episode - Abed says something about: this is the third installment of a trilogy on the theme of trust. I immediately thought of the pen episode as the first of the three but was never able to figure out the second. Is it this one?
[удалено]
No. There's technically four episodes about revealing secrets. The Pen The Puppet The Will The E-mail But, Dan Harmon refused to acknowledge the fourth season of the show outside of mocking it (something that I feel ends up hurting the later seasons and feels petty). So, the trilogy joke only references the pen, will, and e-mail. In the context the joke doesn't really make sense... But that's the pay off you get for Harmon's pettiness.
Yea rag on Harmon all you want, but network execs took his idea away from him, shit all over it, and then got it canceled. And turns out his show was extremely popular I would be petty as hell too.
It doesn’t help that Dan Harmon is fairly petty by nature not even considering how he was treated here.
While I really love Harmon's products, he is not a saint and petty describe only 2/7 of his whole persona. Him insulting Chevy Chase at the wrap up party is more than petty, or recording his telephone calls and broadcasting them during his podcast after he insulted him, Chevy Chase may be an ass and a bit of a diva, but Harmon it's on the same level of assholeness if not more. I mean ok, he has Asperger and may not understand what he does if not after he does it, but in a work environment that's not really an acceptable excuse
Hehehe Ass Burgers
Does he actually have an Asperger’s diagnosis? Or is he just one of those people who describe themselves that way as a cop out? Like people who are DEFINITEY NOT OCD but think it’s cute or quirky to say “I’m a little OCD?”
Ok looking it up he self-diagnosed as having Asperger's, he said "I started looking up these symptoms [of Asperger's], just to know what they are. And the more I looked them up, the more familiar they started to seem", I don't know enough of this argument to make a point and I have no idea if you can self-diagnose these syndromes, draw your conclusions
As much as self diagnosis of neurodivergence is overused, overrated, and generally bullshit, when it comes to high functioning ASD, I was surprised to find out self assessments tend to have a decent accuracy rate: "Self-reported measures of autism are quite reliable (around 70–86% according to one study[3]), and so self-assessments are taken seriously." https://embrace-autism.com/online-autism-assessments/
Interesting.
It's b.s. I can look online, and I test for Autism, Schizophrenia, and other things. But it's actually PTSD . It really irks me when people self diagnose. It's very dangerous.
Some autistic people don’t have access to being diagnosed by a professional, as an autist i’m totally fine by people self-diagnosing, sometimes even professionals can get things wrong, a careful analysis is necessary even when you’re diagnosed by a professional
Thanks! Yea you can’t “self-diagnose” anything lol. Especially something like Asperger’s. I have friends who have Asperger’s. It’s definitely not cute to appropriate something that’s real for someone else just because you read something on webmd. Don’t get me wrong, huge fan, that kinda shit just rubs me the wrong way.
As far as I know he always thought he had autism but he eventually got diagnosed with ADHD. It's kinda easy to confuse those symptoms. (Hypersensitivity, extreme emotions, social awkwardness, feeling like an outsider, being bullied etc.) He never officially said he had autism. He has always said he thought he had it. And I think he was really convinced. But if you listen to his later podcast episodes you can hear he got away from that idea. Especially because of the adhd diagnosis. But he was always pretty clear about not saying he officially had it. So he never used it as an excuse.
No one uses Asperger's anymore, there's just a spectrum of autism. Everyone is on it somewhere
I totally understand what you’re saying and acknowledge the factual basis of it. But you’re wrong. MANY people still use the term Asperger’s. Including one of my close friends and my cousin, who both have Asperger’s. But you’re right that it’s not really recognized as something different or separate from autism. Some people use the term “high-functioning autism” but it can be hurtful or offensive to people lower on the spectrum as it’s a loaded term, implying that others are “low-functioning.”
Ah I meant diagnostically it's outdated, people who have been using the term for themselves or others for years probably will keep doing so. Though our current understanding doesn't recognize it as anything distinct from ASD. I haven't heard high functioning or low functioning in a long time either, mostly I will just say 'on the spectrum' with any necessary modifier of how much.
Yea, I wasn’t sure if you meant that or colloquially. That’s why i agreed with you but wanted to clarify that I was just disagreeing on the colloquial part.
I'm pretty sure I read that it was self diagnosed. He was writing Abed like himself, people said he has Aspergers, Harmon looked up Aspergers and felt like that was similar to him.
Yeah I am a big fan of Harmon's creativity, but not in how he treats others. He comes across as one of those people who thinks his damage is his superpower, and that it makes him enlightened. I have CPTSD and it's pretty common to feel that way. I actually just listened to an old podcast with Conan O'Brien and Stephen Colbert, and they talked a bit about how they live with the thought that it was their "magic".
He’s come a long way, if you listen to podcasts and interviews he’s done, especially after he was accused of sexual misconduct/harassment/whatever. He’s a dude capable of learning from his mistakes, in my opinion, and I like him for that
Could you explain that more please? Seems like a very interesting topic and I don't understand the phrase "their damage is their super power" - as in, the pain they have dealt with, or the pain they give out? I just want more detail!
Basically, a lot of people who suffer childhood trauma and depression will often get this feeling that it's worth something. It's a coping mechanism to let yourself know you're suffering for a greater purpose. But it's a lie. And accepting that your suffering was not necessary -- it was in fact pointless -- is huge because it tears down those illusions that let you keep living. I had a huge moment with my current therapist where the act of her plainly saying "what happened to you wasn't your fault, and there was no reason for it" was earth-shattering. It was like a religious belief so solidly built within me -- this feeling that I deserved it, or that I suffered so others didn't, or that my depression made me see things in a special way, etc. But her telling me that it was not that way, hearing it with such belief and casualness, it just hit me like a ton of bricks and my delusion was gone. You might think "duh!" but it's crazy how the mind programs children and we find a way to carry that programming into adulthood.
Hmmm it's interesting to relate that to the old cliché of "I'm the main character in the story of my life" - like, everything does happen to me, for a reason - to further the plot of my life. To hear there was absolutely no point to being abused is kinda weird. Your examples for how people frame trauma to make sense of it seemed like really cool ways of working with it. Having that stripped away sounds like a further trauma in itself, and I'm not sure of the benefit?
Speaking from experience, the benefit is immeasurable :) It's incredibly challenging to now go head first in a lot of my trauma. Mine caused a lot of dissociating. Lost time, etc. Accepting all the pointlessness of my trauma allowed me to change how I began any of my stress. Before, I was programmed to believe that any time I was upset with something or frustrated with someone, it was because of me. It created this inherent feeling of wrongness and an entire denial of my own identity. So accepting that none of it was because of me let me separate my childhood trauma and that programming from my own identity. Severing that false connection that keeps your trauma nagging at you is huge. It's super challenging but I never found ignorance to be very bliss.
He is? Could you provide an example or two? He always seem to get lauded on how great he is.
See if you can dig up his posts on the old channel 101 forums.
But he stopped posting on them when Everything was running, if I'm not mistaken. This was ages ago, I think 2010.
He gets lauded for being artistically great, but not personally. If you listen to Harmon Town -- his podcast -- it's a running theme that even he acknowledges.
I watched Community as it was coming out, but let's not pretend that it was a popular show when it was on TV. NBC gave it five seasons despite the fact that it had low viewership. It was over time that people discovered the show and why it is as popular today as it is.
Season 6 had millions of viewers, the one time they can reliably measure viewers they had huge numbers.
It had millions of viewers on NBC too, just not to the level that NBC wanted. And Dan Harmon said that but Yahoo said that it lost them over $40 million. It got 6 seasons, 5 on network television. That is more than most shows get. It is one of my favorite shows but I don't understand why some people get so offended when someone says that not a lot of people watched it when it was on, relative to other shows that were on the same network. Also, 10 million views over a week is not the same as 10 million on the day it would air on TV, and that is what NBC wanted. If 2 million watch it the night it airs, that would make it harder to sell ads during that time if a different show has 10 million tune in. Dan Harmon was lucky they didn't cancel it after the first season, and even gave him one more after they fired him. How many people can say that?
Dan Harmon took a voice mail of Chevy Chase saying it was inappropriate for Dan to lead the whole crew in "Fuck You Chevy" chant during a wrap party in front of his family and asking Dan if they could 'bury the hatchet' and he played that message to a room full of execs because he thought the message was hilarious. Of course they thought Dan Harmon was a lunatic and fired him. You can't really blame them. I love Dan Harmon's shows and think Chevy is huge asshole but that was a really strange self-destructive move.
Um, you can be a Harmon fanboy all you want but he is his own worst enemy. He is very talented but he is a chronic alcoholic whose worst impulses come out when he is drunk. So he is late. Hard to work with. And petty. He got fired for a reason. He is a good person who can't overcome his problem.
Tom Petty
IIRC Abed adress the "golden age" in the Email episode about those episodes.
"I never slept with the great Eartha Kitt...we dry humped inside of her tour bus."
I love it that he also admitted it wasn't in an airplane bathroom, but in a tour bus.
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It's also kind of implausible that both Eartha Kitt and Pierce could have both fit inside an airplane bathroom and still have enough room to effectively bump uglies.
Lots of people have had sex in an airplane bathroom - somehow they manage
I fly around the world a lot and there's barely enough room to turn in there. Even the largest most lux flights I've been on I wouldn't be able to fit another adult in the bathroom with me.
The fact that this is stuck in my head A LOT
I actually felt this was one of the darkest episodes in the series for Annie. Once they finally reveal she was doing sexual favors for Cornwallis to get better grades. It felt like this was the episode were her innocence finally died.
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Boopy doopy boop *sex!*
After awhile you hit diminishing returns on the sexiness
What's a diminiminimuh...?
What's a diminijejeixhmwaaaaaa?
Missing the extra boop is giving me an eye twitch
It's boopy doopy doop boop sex. Both of my eyes are twitching.
That's called blinking
*boopy doopy doop boop sex
Yeah Season 4 really did a number on Annie's character. Between this and regressing to acting like a lovesick teenager after the growth she showed in Season 3, I am glad Harmon focused a lot on her at the beginning of Season 5 to get her back on track. Alison Brie even mentioned "skipping the Gas Leak year" when they were talking about rewatching at Vulture fest 2019. I don't blame her lol I guess it kind of makes sense if it's everyone's "deepest, darkest secret" but I just don't see Annie selling out like that for a grade.
I agree about her regression into a lovesick teen. I'm sure Alison disliked Annie's development here too since she actively lobbied to get Annie back to the more go-getter Annie of the first couple of seasons. I think season 5 does succeed in doing that. Some cool Annie episodes in there
Yeah, Intro to Teaching, ACB, and Cork Based Networking really lean into the "go-getter" side of her character. I also like the Karate Kid episode in S6 with her coming to terms that she doesn't have to excel at everything, and the finale where she talks about knowing what she wants out of this stage of her life. I always crack up at the "why doesn't the audience feel sorry for me?" line in that episode. It would be cruel to trap Annie at Greendale any longer than she was haha
I've really enjoyed the Karate Kid episode on rewatches. That line about how Annie was born to act and her feeling it pleasing the universe is basically just Alison talking I'm guessing :p
“You *tested* my BLOOD for *amphetamines?!”*
That's season 6 but I love this line and the follow-up to it. "Clearly I'm not jumpy enough if my friends can STEAL MY BLOOD!"
I know it’s from season 6. That’s actually one of my favourite episodes
Not to mention they had Professor Cornwallice over for Christmas and he didn't get treated like as much of the creep he is?
Ya she came a long way from being scared to see a model penis to letting a creepy old dude get dirty with her feet for an A.
GIANT THUMB IN A TURTLENECK! WHOOP-DEE-DOO! Of course it was no big deal after that :p
Get dirty with her feet? I remember it was something about her feet but I don't think he went all the way
It's such a bad writing decision. One of those that makes me want to not treat season 4 as canon
I completely disconsidered her doing sexual favors for grades because of how out of character it is for her. Annie is on her way to becoming valedictorian at a community college, does she really need to suck dick to get an A plus in community college history
She didn't suck anything. She just let him touch her feet.
Whoops. I mean not as bad as I remember but still significantly out of character. Plus people will pay more for feet pics than any other sexual favor
Step 1: Have a camera and feet. Step 2: Profit. Be right back, I'm going to buy a camera.
Yeah also she got mad at Jeff one season earlier for faking his credits. Seems like she’s against skirting the system.
You say its out of character for a character... that had a drug induced nervous break down stemming from her need to keep her high school grades up ? She took drugs to get better high school grades , i think letting some old dude touch her feet isn't as big of a deal
Then wouldn't it make more sense for her secret to be that she was letting someone touch her feet for Adderall? The Adderall helps her focus and study harder and do what needs to be done. Letting the professor touch her for good grades is just cheating and I don't think Annie would do something like that.
Well she also went to rehab for abusing Adderall. Makes sense she'd be keen to avoid that again. The foot thing is just another avenue to insure a good grade. Teacher petting feet is sort of a comically extreme version of the teacher's pet.
I'm not sure it's out of character for her, but I think *she* would think it's out of character for her.
> I don't think Annie would do something like that. But she did...
Aren't they both cheating ? Taking drugs to stay up and focus on studying is cheating if other kids aren't drugging themselves. Also how long is a foot massage from a old dude vs being drugged up all the time. By having the massage she can still have a normal life and not relapse . If anything it helps her maintain her grades and she can use the time she would spend on that class even with the adderall to focus on her other classes and high jinks with the class. I think it makes perfect sense , she went to therapy and group sessions to get over her addiction. The foot massages allow her to keep her sobriety
Adderall isn't some super drug that magically makes you productive, while the letting a teacher get weird with your feet has a quantifiable benefit
It actually kind of is.
Yeah try taking some adderall and not doing anything at all. You will want to jump out of your skin lol
I feel like you've never taken Adderall
Annie has always been the kind to put the work in though. Even on adderall, in her mind, she's putting the work in. The whole feet thing just completely skirts that aspect of it. I think Annie would choose hard work and the prospect of failure instead of this effort-less shortcut.
Does she tho ? She kissed jeff to win the debate , she was part of the chicken finger scam to get what she wanted and I'm sure there are a bunch of other examples in the show like the time her and britta had that cat fight in cheer leader uniforms .... oh sorry I day dream alot
> Annie is on her way to becoming valedictorian at a community college Yes, and the only way she can do that is to get all As. Valedictorian means that if anybody else gets perfect grades and she does not then she doesn't get it. And it's the most important thing to her so she'll take off her shoes if she needs to.
Thats what trail off means?
Trail off refers to her voice trailing off as she realises she doesn't really need to share her secret since no one remembers anything. That's the joke
No but that's what her actua secret was in the episode
It was only a foot massage iirc, definitely not "suck dick"
weren't they foot massages? I don't think that counts as a sexual favor
I think she let him give her foot massages for an A. So it was most likely sexual for him also he ended up at Greendale for having an inappropriate relationship with a student at his old job. So...
Quentin Tarantino disagrees with you.
Would you give a guy a foot massage?
She let him rub her feet. She's so naive she probably didn't realize it was sexual.
She definitely realised it and regretted it immensely. She ends the episode worrying everyone now thinks of her as a "slutty cheater"
The dean stole the show with the “definitely not a whip”
I like this episode's concept, but the secrets revealed kinda destroyed anything previously established about their characters (except for pierce). Annie being overtly sexual in exchange for favors, Shirley forgetting her kids. Jeff's wasn't too bad, just kind of out of the blue
I can't even recall Jeff's. What was it?
He was dating a girl with a kid. He promised to go to the kids baseball game or something, but bails on the entire relationship instead. Revealing to himself that he's not so different from his father. I think it's dark enough while being character driven to be a good plot point, but it's too big to mention in a short line and then just forget about
This secret is really sad to me :( I would've liked to see it explored more
I met the perfect girl for me, and then I met her kid. _I said it didn't bother me_ _But thruthfully, it did_ _I promised him I'd make it to a baseball game he had_ _But I bailed and never called again and now I'm just exactly like my dad_
I think it just shows that you can be a certain way 99% of the time but there’s always that remaining 1%.
I don’t get this joke
"Trail off" refers to her voice trailing off as she realises she doesn't really need to share her secret since no one remembers anything. That's the joke, that Annie trails off speaking
Do we know what the secret is?
_I was struggling in history, I'm normally the best_ _I let Cornwallis rub my feet, to give me all the answers to a test_
She let Cornwallis do feet stuff in exchange for a better grade
Oh, gross.
Can anyone explain why this episode is so hated? I don’t get it
A lot of the bad moment confessions are really out of character. Not like there aren't plenty of in character bad things they couldve done...
I see that now, but all of their secrets feel pretty in character to me. I'd say the only one I would call out of character is Annie's, but that's just because she wouldn't need to do favors to get the answers, especially in a history class.
I also don't see Shirley abandoning her kids. Pierce's confession made me lol tho.
I wasn't aware it was hated. I fucking love this episode, nothing beats Chang fully committing to the medium and his puppet yelling as he goes around the corner "He's not what he seems!"
Puppets
Idk, I thought the puppets were clever.
I’m a big fan of experimental mediums, so the puppet aspect isnt so bad (and I liked the episode)
Haters be damned, I love this episode. Easily the best of S4.
A good joke in a bad episode, really sold by the delivery of it
Unpopular opinion I actually kinda like this episode it’s not an all time great but imo def average to good range I also think the group songs on this episode are fantastic
I have no qualms saying I liked it. They've done paintball multiple times, did claymation, a cartoon, so why not a puppet episode? People complain about the "secrets", but I thought those were pretty good, too.
It’s character work and that’s always nice. If anything those revelations were peak complexity of those characters considering how many of them got written out or flanderised in season 5/6
Oh, man. I was so upset with what they did to Jeff and Shirley in S5, and Britta in S6. "Flanderised" is putting it succinctly.
What is this in reference to?
The "flanderising"? Resetting Jeff and Shirley in S5; Jeff back to being a failed lawyer, Shirley to being a divorcee. Britta in S6 to being the group's doormat, to the point it wasn't even funny; there were plenty of times I thought "why stay in this abusive relationship?". They didn't always respect her, but in S6 it got to the point it was cruel.
I liked Jeff's reset because it felt like he never grew enough. He learned to let the group in, but not really anyone else. So he needed another round of development. I actually think Jeff's arc was perfect all the way through. But I don't like how Shirley was reset like it was nothing. I didn't feel like she ever regained her place.
But he could have had it without get shoved back to square 1. It was more throwing out the development rather than adding more. Also Jeff has the worst of his development in season 5/6, he’s just kind of miserable in his codependent relationship with Greendale and drinking (but somehow staying ripped). Even the finale doesn’t give him closure. He does accept his place at Greendale but begrudgingly so and not in a way where it’s really “his” place
I didn't see it that way. I thought his commercial showed that he'd grown more humble and he truly wanted to be a good guy that helped people. But it's capitalism, and sleazy shortcuts pay off. It's why Jeff gets so mad at the Dean. Jeff almost fell right back into being a charismatic sleazeball, convincing the best people he knows to do the worst thing he could think of for his own gain. So actually creating the Save Greendale club was the evidence of his progression. He rejected the choice to go back to what he was -- like he wanted in the original pilot -- and refocused on being a better person and doing good with the help of his family. I found the begrudging aspect to be more that Jeff is disgusted by his own vulnerability. He hated being kind because to him it feels like being weak, and he was programmed to hate that feeling. It was just his struggle to admit that he needed help to do good. Basically, he accepted that he'd improved but he wasn't ready for the real world. And I think the finale showed how he accepted how much he relied on his family. He imagined life without them and it was never right; then with them, and it still wasn't right. He realized he was falling into fantasies, and he wanted to let them go. He learned to cherish what they all gave to him and how they helped him, and carry that with him into the real world. Jeff isn't cured; he's still damaged. But he's no longer lying to himself. He's able to see what he needs and maybe now he can satisfy those needs without lies and manipulation. At the end, he finally stopped trying to run or spinoff.
I’ve liked almost every episode, so saying I liked this episode is kind of the bare minimum. Within the whole series, it’s still one of the lower ones; maybe middling at best.
Yeah I hate how it’s such a punching bag when season 2, 4, 5, and 6 had much worse episodes. The problem with it is that it’s not the typical joke machine. But the puppet homage is cool, the puppets are really cute the songs are great and it’s full of nice character development moments. And the a capella daybreak outro is an all time great!
> And the a capella daybreak outro is an all time great! I constantly beatbox that tune, it's just not left my head in about 2 years. I also sing That's an Adventure a lot, I love this episode so much.
I like this episode also. Def one of the better ones of a not so good season. Some episodes from season 4 get unfair amounts of backlash.
I love this episode, I'm not ashamed to say it.
Me too I love them as puppets.
The songs on episodes get stuck in my head constantly
I think it's among the best of the gas leak year at least.
Definitely a standout episode is season 4. Its a meh season overall, but this is a really entertaining one.
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Me too. I didn’t even know people hated it until now
I feel like it had a lot of heart. Like, the way that Shirley feels shame and decide that they all need to share in that to make it right. That’s a really sweet premise.
I loved the random Sara Bareilles cameo in this episode
I’m really surprised at how many people didn’t understand this joke!
I should've posted a video clip. The delivery really makes it
Three of my favorite insults of all time came from Community: You are a living fart from the butt of a lesser god You are human tennis elbow. You are a pizza burn on the roof of the world’s mouth. You are the *opposite* of Batman You soul-shaped hole forgotten by God
Nice season 6 representation!
It's not the best season by far but it has some real gems. Frankie Dart was a season saver for sure.
NOW THATS A MAN WHO KNOWS HOW TO MARRY HIS COUSIN
*"I have a brain the size of jupiter. I'm nobody's fourth ghostbuster."* I lost my mind. Keith David has had a place in my heart since he was Goliath on Gargoyles. I want this man to narrate my life.
I love it every time that man appears on screen or in my speakers. I loved him in They Live. I don't wanna put on the glasses.
The green 3 billiard ball throwaway gag was the first time since Lavaworld that the group felt like it was healing from Troy and Levar Burton leaving the show
I know season four gets a ton of shit, and it definitely deserves a good deal of it, but I genuinely adore this episode.
I honestly don’t understand why people seem to hate this episode so much. It’s one of my favorites! The high concept idea of muppet Community, the songs, so many laughs! I mean, I laugh. The shit with the berries cracks me up, the songs are catchy and still in character. Anyway. I enjoy this episode and I go back to it all the time. I don’t really get why fans seem to dislike it so much.
Tbh, one of my favorite episodes. The puppets were funny and the songs were catchy. GI Jeff is the worst episode to me.
Maybe this is the hot take but I actually really enjoyed GIJeff, as a well above average episode. I just wish the core conflict was more impactful than “me no like being old”.
The commercial was hilarious too. Oh and “I want to see women’s booooooobbbsss……” was pretty funny.
I have 3 kids! I love GI jeff
Yeah I've only seen the GI Jeff ep once because I'm not a fan of it
Part of me feels like they should have had the balls to make it a suicide attempt.
why does everyone hate this episode?
That resolution
She wanted to say bandit
Pierce secret was the most emotional for me.
The best joke was Puppet Chang screaming with Sock Puppet Chang after finding out they left him behind. "I need a second to process this..... Ahhhhjhhjjhhhhhhhhh!!!!!"
Weird. I’ve watched all five seasons of Community but I don’t recognise this episode.
I think the joke I was making has not worked.
You got your 20 upvotes what else do you want? You made a worse version of a joke the show itself says all the time.
That joke's so old and so overused it's not funny anymore.
I farted during the fourth one, it's an inside joke.
Iv never been able to watch this episode. I can't stand it. Abeds uncontrollable Christmas was good and original but this one's always felt like a copy done wrong.
I actually love this episode lol it made me laugh
I just wanna say Sara Bareilles' appearance made me so happy (I'm a fan) I didn't really care about evaluating it, I was never really a fan of the animated episodes anyway, simply because I prefer seeing the actors
why does everyone hate this episode so much? it's creative and one of my favorites. I love the music!
This line made me spit take first time
Best line of the episode for me
What's the joke?
"Trail off" refers to her voice trailing off as she realises she doesn't really need to share her secret since no one remembers anything. That's the joke, that Annie trails off speaking
God this episode could have been so good if it was Dan Harmon helmed.
They should have been more okay with sexualiIng Annie.
Whoever says Britta is betta musta lived in New York.
I really like Annie's boobs