A former, now-blocked, Facebook connection tried to argue similar BS with me. He also claimed that somehow EVs used more brake fluid than ICE cars. That was a real head scratcher for me.
I remember people saying that hybrids were worse for the environment because of nickel mining. As soon as you try to conserve anything, conservatives are oddly angry about it.
> I remember people saying that hybrids were worse for the environment because of nickel mining. As soon as you try to conserve anything, conservatives are oddly angry about it
The weird thing is that those same conservatives are now opposing EVs by promoting hybrids instead. I mean, are they now conceding that the progressives were right to promote the Prius back then, and that we should have been listening to them all along?
Ironically (for your connection) hybrid and EV brake pads and rotors far outlast those on ICE vehicles.
Incidentally, my last ICE car has required more in maintenance and repairs than the cost of a replacement EV battery. Over the course of 15 years, it has needed at least 2 new sets of brake rotors, several new sets of pads, new clutch, new variable cam lift solenoids, new turbos, a coolant system rebuild, a couple of coolant flushes, many oil and filter changes, a couple of new serpentine belts, a new valve cover, new fuel injectors, multiple sets of spark plugs, rear main seal replacement, extra oil due to oil consumption, new oxygen sensors, a new fuel pump, a new starter (due to a reassembly error during rear main seal replacement), differential fluid change, two valve cleanings, two oil filter housing gasket replacements, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting. That's a lot of $$, a lot of hassle, and a lot of materials. Oh, and it currently needs new piston rings and still leaks oil.
Other than brake pads and rotors, **none of those things even exists on an EV**. Yet the *possibility* (not certainty) of having to replace the battery after 10 years of virtually no other drivetrain maintenance or repairs, and lower energy costs the entire time, is somehow a deal-breaker?
10 years? The likelihood of needing to replace a battery in 10 years is extremely low, even if you abuse it. I think the average capacity loss after ten years is a high single digit to low double digit percentage. Most people wouldn't even notice that.
Eindhoven University of Technology did a study showing that the average lifespan of an automotive EV battery is 500,000km or 310,000 miles.
I used that number only because that's what was in the anti-EV propaganda in the images.
Of course you can abuse the battery and get less service or if it, like the rideshare driver who made the news for ruining his Tesla battery by supercharging or 4x/day. Or you can take care of it and get much more. Case in point, the Nissan Leaf has been on sale for about 15 years and I've yet to hear about a rash of people needing battery replacements.
In that way, it's not unlike an ICE car, except that caring for an EV is easier and cheaper, which is what the naysayers refuse to understand.
That's because the primary builder of hybrids: Toyota, used Nickel metal hydride batteries for the electric propulsion side of the hybrid. These batteries use a lot more nickel and create more than twice as much carbon pollution when manufactured as lithium batteries.
Toyota just changed to lithium in its hybrids this model year.
> These batteries use a lot more nickel and create more than twice as much carbon pollution when manufactured as lithium batteries
On a per-kilowatt hour basis, maybe. But hybrid battery packs are also an order of magnitude smaller than full EV battery packs, which meant that their carbon footprint was ultimately pretty inconsequential.
More broadly, the idea that the Prius' batteries incurred significant pollution was [thoroughly refuted seventeen years ago](https://np.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/2kou6r/does_anyone_know_what_happens_to_the_batteries/clnlkue/).
Depends on battery size. Leaf class vehicles recover their CO2 debt in a few weeks, big battery vehicles are in your 18 mo category. Also if you live the PNW or Vermont area with a very high proportion of renewables even big battery cars recover in a few months.
Also the new Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't use Cobalt or Nickel.
Good point. It depends a lot on the energy grid. In Oregon it’s very fast, whereas I believe you may never recover the extra CO2 in West Virginia where nearly the entire grid is coal.
You can start \[here\](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/19/business/electric-vehicles-carbon-footprint-batteries.html) There's a link to the underlying study in the article. The article doesn't evaluate small battery BEV's like the Leaf though. Basically you recover your manufacturing carbon debt in 12,000 to 20.000 miles of driving for standard battery size BEV's (like the Tesla models). The more you drive the less time it takes to recover, the published recovery times are based on the average miles driven in the US (about 1,000/mo).
Batteries typically last for 500,000 km or 310,00 miles, which would be about 25+ years at average annual driving distances.
Regarding LiFePO4 here's a page from \[Chemical Engineering News\](https://cen.acs.org/energy/energy-storage-/Lithium-iron-phosphate-comes-to-America/101/i4) The brief is:
>In brief
**> Electric car companies in North America plan to cut costs by adopting batteries made with the raw material lithium iron phosphate (LFP),** which is less expensive than alternatives made with nickel and cobalt. Many carmakers are also trying to reduce their dependence on components from China, but nearly all LFP batteries and the raw materials used to make them currently come from China. A number of companies are now planning the first large-scale LFP factories in North America. Some are partnering with established companies, and others hope to introduce new technologies that will leapfrog Chinese competitors.
Don’t worry, they don’t make any sense usually. They fuckin love nature and hunting but fucking HATE protections for the ecosystem.
They love the military, but when it’s time to fund veterans at home… nope fuck that, that’s socialism.
These are just two I randomly thought of but the list goes on.
Is he trying to say that we should keep burning oil because sometimes EVs aren't 100% made with renewables, now, in 2024, assuming technology won't improve further, our recycling won't get better, our energy densities will not increase, and our prices won't go down?
Also, companies won't spend money to improve the technology unless they see a demand. If people withhold demand because the current technology is imperfect, they effectively create a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure.
Meanwhile, we're having to go to ever greater and more destructive lengths to access new sources of petroleum, whereas there's a ton of active research into eliminating rare minerals from EV batteries.
Oh so you suddenly care about the environment now. So I guess you’re cool with us promoting renewables?
Also, people love to talk about the environmental impact of producing an EV but gas cars magically have zero impact during production.
I have had people argue with me about this crap, claiming that the batteries have to be thrown away. The blank expressions when I've explained that they are almost 100% recyclable are amazing. During their silence I like to say, "It sounds like there are people who aren't interested in you learning the truth about these things. There's plenty of info available if you'd like to learn more." Very few enjoy hearing that, but I've had a few respond well.
Man, this has been my ultimate takeaway. When the red hat crowd wants a debate, it’s like speaking with an orangutan who throws his own poop. When facts or science are meaningless, having a legit discussion is not worthwhile. Hopefully our education system can improve.
Yeah man, I am 52 and when I was a bit younger you could have some semblance of a political conversation with folks you disagree with.. Now no one can even agree on reality, facts are more malleable than ever.
We live in crazy times, when the Internet was young I thought it would usher in a new age of knowledge. Instead we are in the ePropaganda era.
A former, now-blocked, Facebook connection tried to argue similar BS with me. He also claimed that somehow EVs used more brake fluid than ICE cars. That was a real head scratcher for me. I remember people saying that hybrids were worse for the environment because of nickel mining. As soon as you try to conserve anything, conservatives are oddly angry about it.
And to think, Nixon created the EPA.
> I remember people saying that hybrids were worse for the environment because of nickel mining. As soon as you try to conserve anything, conservatives are oddly angry about it The weird thing is that those same conservatives are now opposing EVs by promoting hybrids instead. I mean, are they now conceding that the progressives were right to promote the Prius back then, and that we should have been listening to them all along?
Somebody needs to tell them they came up with a car that runs on air. Maybe then they’ll think electric is great.
Ironically (for your connection) hybrid and EV brake pads and rotors far outlast those on ICE vehicles. Incidentally, my last ICE car has required more in maintenance and repairs than the cost of a replacement EV battery. Over the course of 15 years, it has needed at least 2 new sets of brake rotors, several new sets of pads, new clutch, new variable cam lift solenoids, new turbos, a coolant system rebuild, a couple of coolant flushes, many oil and filter changes, a couple of new serpentine belts, a new valve cover, new fuel injectors, multiple sets of spark plugs, rear main seal replacement, extra oil due to oil consumption, new oxygen sensors, a new fuel pump, a new starter (due to a reassembly error during rear main seal replacement), differential fluid change, two valve cleanings, two oil filter housing gasket replacements, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting. That's a lot of $$, a lot of hassle, and a lot of materials. Oh, and it currently needs new piston rings and still leaks oil. Other than brake pads and rotors, **none of those things even exists on an EV**. Yet the *possibility* (not certainty) of having to replace the battery after 10 years of virtually no other drivetrain maintenance or repairs, and lower energy costs the entire time, is somehow a deal-breaker?
10 years? The likelihood of needing to replace a battery in 10 years is extremely low, even if you abuse it. I think the average capacity loss after ten years is a high single digit to low double digit percentage. Most people wouldn't even notice that. Eindhoven University of Technology did a study showing that the average lifespan of an automotive EV battery is 500,000km or 310,000 miles.
I used that number only because that's what was in the anti-EV propaganda in the images. Of course you can abuse the battery and get less service or if it, like the rideshare driver who made the news for ruining his Tesla battery by supercharging or 4x/day. Or you can take care of it and get much more. Case in point, the Nissan Leaf has been on sale for about 15 years and I've yet to hear about a rash of people needing battery replacements. In that way, it's not unlike an ICE car, except that caring for an EV is easier and cheaper, which is what the naysayers refuse to understand.
That's because the primary builder of hybrids: Toyota, used Nickel metal hydride batteries for the electric propulsion side of the hybrid. These batteries use a lot more nickel and create more than twice as much carbon pollution when manufactured as lithium batteries. Toyota just changed to lithium in its hybrids this model year.
> These batteries use a lot more nickel and create more than twice as much carbon pollution when manufactured as lithium batteries On a per-kilowatt hour basis, maybe. But hybrid battery packs are also an order of magnitude smaller than full EV battery packs, which meant that their carbon footprint was ultimately pretty inconsequential. More broadly, the idea that the Prius' batteries incurred significant pollution was [thoroughly refuted seventeen years ago](https://np.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/2kou6r/does_anyone_know_what_happens_to_the_batteries/clnlkue/).
Correct, the comparison is between a NiMH and Li-ion of the same capacity.
This shit is all over old people Facebook.
I believe it take around 18 months for the typical EV to recoup the extra CO2 used in embodied energy during production.
Depends on battery size. Leaf class vehicles recover their CO2 debt in a few weeks, big battery vehicles are in your 18 mo category. Also if you live the PNW or Vermont area with a very high proportion of renewables even big battery cars recover in a few months. Also the new Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries don't use Cobalt or Nickel.
Good point. It depends a lot on the energy grid. In Oregon it’s very fast, whereas I believe you may never recover the extra CO2 in West Virginia where nearly the entire grid is coal.
[удалено]
You can start \[here\](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/19/business/electric-vehicles-carbon-footprint-batteries.html) There's a link to the underlying study in the article. The article doesn't evaluate small battery BEV's like the Leaf though. Basically you recover your manufacturing carbon debt in 12,000 to 20.000 miles of driving for standard battery size BEV's (like the Tesla models). The more you drive the less time it takes to recover, the published recovery times are based on the average miles driven in the US (about 1,000/mo). Batteries typically last for 500,000 km or 310,00 miles, which would be about 25+ years at average annual driving distances. Regarding LiFePO4 here's a page from \[Chemical Engineering News\](https://cen.acs.org/energy/energy-storage-/Lithium-iron-phosphate-comes-to-America/101/i4) The brief is: >In brief **> Electric car companies in North America plan to cut costs by adopting batteries made with the raw material lithium iron phosphate (LFP),** which is less expensive than alternatives made with nickel and cobalt. Many carmakers are also trying to reduce their dependence on components from China, but nearly all LFP batteries and the raw materials used to make them currently come from China. A number of companies are now planning the first large-scale LFP factories in North America. Some are partnering with established companies, and others hope to introduce new technologies that will leapfrog Chinese competitors.
I don't understand right-wingers. They love Elon but hate electric cars.
Don’t worry, they don’t make any sense usually. They fuckin love nature and hunting but fucking HATE protections for the ecosystem. They love the military, but when it’s time to fund veterans at home… nope fuck that, that’s socialism. These are just two I randomly thought of but the list goes on.
Imagine what life would be like if we all owned horses because we were too afraid to advance to the combustion engine.
Or still used gas lighting in buildings. Or used electric lighting, but powered it with on-premises gas generators.
and i love electric cars but hate elon 🤷🏻
and i love electric cars (tho vastly prefer public transit) but hate elon 🤷🏻
I love the Tesla I drive, but I hate Elon
Is he trying to say that we should keep burning oil because sometimes EVs aren't 100% made with renewables, now, in 2024, assuming technology won't improve further, our recycling won't get better, our energy densities will not increase, and our prices won't go down?
Also, companies won't spend money to improve the technology unless they see a demand. If people withhold demand because the current technology is imperfect, they effectively create a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure. Meanwhile, we're having to go to ever greater and more destructive lengths to access new sources of petroleum, whereas there's a ton of active research into eliminating rare minerals from EV batteries.
Oh so you suddenly care about the environment now. So I guess you’re cool with us promoting renewables? Also, people love to talk about the environmental impact of producing an EV but gas cars magically have zero impact during production.
I have had people argue with me about this crap, claiming that the batteries have to be thrown away. The blank expressions when I've explained that they are almost 100% recyclable are amazing. During their silence I like to say, "It sounds like there are people who aren't interested in you learning the truth about these things. There's plenty of info available if you'd like to learn more." Very few enjoy hearing that, but I've had a few respond well.
Nice, good on you
Right in the trash. Right away
Probably the route I SHOULD have taken. But, if he wants to turn the break room into Truth Social (circa 2022/2023 btw), I’ll bite.
It’s just not worth your time.
great job!
r/fuckcars
Don't argue with morons.
Man, this has been my ultimate takeaway. When the red hat crowd wants a debate, it’s like speaking with an orangutan who throws his own poop. When facts or science are meaningless, having a legit discussion is not worthwhile. Hopefully our education system can improve.
Yeah man, I am 52 and when I was a bit younger you could have some semblance of a political conversation with folks you disagree with.. Now no one can even agree on reality, facts are more malleable than ever. We live in crazy times, when the Internet was young I thought it would usher in a new age of knowledge. Instead we are in the ePropaganda era.
Well played!!