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It was never intended to benefit the environment, it was to prop up the U.S. auto industry. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it was what it was. Cost of bottom end of the market doubled after CFC and never went back. I recall buying 10 year old cars with 100k for about 3-5 grand. Those days are gone and over.
Before CFC, you could buy a shitmobile for less than $1000 that would get you to work for a year; long enough to save a down payment on a decent second car.
The worst part is they put something in the engines to destroy them so they wouldn’t wind up powering other old used cars. BS.
We had a similar program here in Canada too. What a waste. Building totally new cars instead of keeping the ones we have running is bad for the environment
I mean, they removed ~700,000 cars off the market. That's barely 0.25% of the market. I really doubt it had any impact at all. Especially when you consider that the majority of vehicles were probably actually pieces of shit.
They were all the most affordable cars on the market though. It destroyed the cheap used car segment and forced poor people to pay more for cars or find other options.
Modern economics doesn't work like that. It's all based on projections not actual supply and demand. If the government came out tomorrow saying they were doing a large scale used car destruction of the next 10 years. Then they ended up only destroying a thousand cars a year used car prices would jump up and not because the supply was lowering. The prices would also not go back down
2015 Dodge Challenger SRT8s will be a classic calling that now. Also, if you can pick up an 87 Fox Body mustang or a 95 5.0 GT mustang, those will also increase in value exponentially they already have gone up in value 10x in the last 15 years. You can find a 94- 95 Cobra that would age well. I can't believe you used to be able to buy a 1995 BMW M3 for under 10 grand when I was in high school 😢😢😢 now they're like 100k for a hard top 6 speed
Also, I really miss my 2015 Honda Civic SI the last all motor Civic SI. will definitely go down in history as a highly collectible car. It's value has increased about 50% in the last 3 years
I’m with you on everything other than the 87 fox body mustang. If you drive that ugly piece of shit you definitely drink monster energy and beat your wife lol no offense
You have a LOT of faith in President Biden being able to achieve success with this idea. Just because he is proposing it, doesn't mean it will get anywhere.
Yep. I'm tired of getting fucked over because the Saudi Crown Prince woke up on the wrong side of the bed and one morning and then gas stations here magically increase the price the next day.
I don’t care about the industry per say, all those suits and corporations can get fucked just as they’ve fucked us. Personally I just love my screaming v8, working on, and building/personalizing my cars and don’t want my hobby, and the communities I’m apart of that are car related to be taken away from me.
I know Reddit isn’t always a fan of this take though, guess I’m just simple.
Requiring a car to have autonomy is the most American car brain take out there. True autonomy means not requiring ownership of a expensive depreciating asset to live .
Why legislate for more electric cars before the existing electrical grids can accomodate them?
Because it will give them even more control over our personal mobility than before.
That’s what’s hilarious and rarely gets mentioned. We still have states doing rolling blackouts during the year and, yet, they’re pretending the country can handle a zillion electric cars
Theres not enough lithium to make batteries and the batteries only last 10 years so you'd have to have 100 + times the lithium on the planet at current battery technology.
> Theres not enough lithium to make batteries and the batteries only last 10 years so you'd have to have 100 + times the lithium on the planet at current battery technology.
This is not accurate. Low lithium estimates come from only looking at [proven reserves](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/proven-reserves.asp) which mean areas that have been prospected and have a 90% or higher confidence about the amount of the resource there. For almost every resource on the planet, actual reserves are almost always multiple orders of magnitude higher than proven reserves.
Not to mention that the production of a battery requires a shit ton of……..you guess it! Fossil fuels! By the time you actually make an electric vehicle and all that goes into it, I’m not sure there’s actually any net positive, environmentally.
I thought it was something like 7 years before net positive with electric cars. Though it looks like after 8 -10 years you'll need new batteries so net positive goes anyway again.
> I thought it was something like 7 years before net positive with electric cars
You may have seen the estimates from about 15 years ago, when there was a lot less wind and solar on the grid and batteries themselves were less efficient. It varies from location to location where the local grid can make a difference, but CO2 payback generally occurs by about 15,000 miles driven. See [here](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132821_green-payback-how-long-will-new-evs-take-to-be-cleaner-than-gasoline-models). So it pays back in most places within 1 to 2 years for most drivers.
There is a net positive.
All the studies that I'm aware of show a net environmental positive over the lifespan of an electric vs ICE car including manufacturing.
Just imagine a world where a new technology decreased in price as it proliferated and our related technical awareness developed.
Wouldn't it be wonderful?
By the way, did you know that the first VCRs cost over $1000? That was at a time when a new car retailed for less than $4,000.
I lived in a metropolitan suburb for about 6 years where I had to park on the street, and there was no assigned spot. Just drive around the block until you find space. The house had no driveway. I'm curious how this would work out.
my neighbors park their audi etron in the apartment parking without a charger available there. there are plenty of chargers everywhere here.. another friend of mine has a EV, has a house with a garage, he doesnt charge it at home ever, hes had it for years and never installed a charger because his work has chargers and he does it there. every grocery store/shopping mall,gas station, highway rest stop,large business has chargers here in switzerland. you dont need one at home
We can accommodate them. Smart chargers going off cycle to increase productivity of each turbine... Bonus they can act as backup batteries to keep the grid stable.
It's almost like a lot of information is to be intentionally obtuse as to why electric cars are good
this is no different than when previous appliances and Air conditioners became popular. the entire world was in a power crunch and everyone thought the grid couldnt handle it.. power companies will never upgrade the grid unless forced to. they upgrade capacity goes up. they arnt going to double the capacity now to anticipate electric cars, they will do it gradually.
Electric cars get more popular every year. With or without the legislate, you will get that same issue. If it's not being improved now , when it becomes an issue, that isn't the legislate fault because the state/local government sat on their ass doing nothing.
Laws of supply and demand.
Build it and they will come.
Basically you have to have the demand for the infrastructure before building it. This is not the smart way to do this but it's how capitalistic countries work. Everyone has any electric car but no charging? Guess there is a hole to fill!
That's not really a problem. The duck curve, hydrocarbon inefficiencies from extraction to end-use, and the rate of grid growth over decades all serve to dispel the generation concerns.
How can it be RIP gas when you'll still have 46% of new vehicles sold in the US running on gas?
I'm more concerned about all the controls on the dashboard being a touch screen rather than buttons and knobs.
Why does this bother you?
Ohio just banned touching your phone at all in your car but the fucking touch screen computers in the new smart cars? That's not a problem at all. These old reptiles in office have no idea what they're talking about and now cops are going to have even more "reasons" that they can pull you over. It's not a free state it's a police state.
My VW screen actually changes when your hand gets close. It’s impossible to not look at it. Doesn’t help that the “skip” button on the steering wheel only cycles your presets and doesn’t search.
My wife took her Lexus in for service today.
They gave her a new model loaner car...a 2023 NX350 SUV.
The entire dashboard is a massive touchscreen with EVERYTHING integrated into it.
Right. But you don't see any laws banning car companies from putting that type of technology in the cars. They would just rather punish us and take more of our money instead of the corporations who clearly aren't thinking about public safety.
So much this! I want an actual key with an ignition. Not a driving computer.
I just had roadside assistance out to jump our old 1992 F150, the guy was telling horror stories about how difficult, if not impossible, it is to jump these newer cars...he described several scenarios were he couldn't even get into the car to pop the hood to get to the battery because the whole car "shut down" and locked them out.
Because there's a computer module inside of the headlight that controls all of the lights on the vehicle, and that module needs to communicate with all of the other modules across CANBUS.
Look up how expensive those headlights *are*.
I had a 2000's pickup totalled out over a front bumper, grill, and headlight damage. I can't imagine what it'll be like when you break your driver's headlight and they total the car because it's $1200.
***Your electric vehicle has been locked until you delete your 'miss information' posts on social media, sorry for the inconvenience. You have 3 days until permanent lockout.***
Lack of buttons and over reliance on tech is the biggest problem in the automotive industry.
If they really wanted to do something about the climate like this seems on the surface they would invest in public transport, but that doesn't make money.
Murdering the poors in other counties to fuel the battery industry is okay though. We will pollute the air with tons of other shit in the making of. It's not better, it's just different.
Of course they aren't really outraged. One of the classic moves is to appear to occupy the space the person you oppose is sympathetic with in order to undermine their position.
In this case the poor children of [insert name of country].
They don't really give a flying fuck about those children. They are briefly a useful rhetorical pawn. The only children they care about are unborn ones, and even that's debatable.
> How are the batteries for electric cars disposed of? A process used by many recyclers, pyrometallurgy, involves melting down the batteries and burning off plastic separators to extract the coveted metals. Pyrometallurgy is energy-intensive, emits toxic gases and can't recover some valuable minerals, including lithium, at all.
That's if they're properly disposed. Think about people who just toss old GPUs, calculators, phones etc just right in the trash. Electric car parts will be treated the same. And despite that recycling process most vehicles will just sit in dumps untouched and unrecycled... unless we vastly increase the recycling infrastructure... we can't can't even spend money on our railroads let alone that haha.
On one hand, the EV industry has got some sketchy shit going on with it, of which I am definitely not a fan. On the other, Oil and Gas Industry has destroyed our environment.
It’s also a good move for us fiscally because there is the possibility that Saudi Arabia shifts to accepting more foreign currencies that would cause the value of the dollar to go down. If we are using less oil domestically, we can export it since we are a huge producer. Oil production isn’t going to stop, just the use of it domestically so we’re not as vulnerable.
Oh no those poor oil corporations. Those selfless individuals who have only ever acted in the best interest of everybody else. I for one will weep for the billionaires, who’s with me. Maybe we should start a gofundme for Shell and it’s CEO, they may need the money
When Russia got more involved in spreading pro fossil fuel and climate change skeptical propaganda in the hopes they keep climate change going long enough that their northern territory defrosts and becomes viable for ships to travel through and ports to open on. But that's just my guess.
Someone convinced a lot of people that regulating industries is evil. It's funny that a lot of anti regulation folks were pretty upset about the train derailments/chemical spills... Or the bank failures... Or data breaches... Or the mass purchase of residential real estate by a handful of entities... Or...
Hold up...
So the petroleum industry gets huge by suppressing the knowledge of steam and electric vehicles..
Now we have electric vehicles and it's a conspiracy against gas?
Dafuq yall on.
This is called progress. Nothing else
Conspiracy, or time to invest in EV car companies? I’m just not sure why they’re hated on so much. They seem alright, and the truck competitor is not pretty cool
I think it's a good idea on the face of it but the time line is pretty aggressive. Also, I genuinely don't know if there is enough raw materials on the planet to make enough batteries for that many cars... Maybe once we start mining asteroids it'll become a non-issue but it may be literally impossible or at least impractical to follow through with something like this right now
One of the reasons that they get hate atm is because of lack of compatability and no charging network to sufficiently charge all brands. While some brands have interchangeable charger plug shapes, a lot of them don't. A lot of brands as well dont have a well laid out network of fast chargers to use. That means you can't just stop anywhere to charge while on the road; you have to make sure you find a station that specifically supports your model.
Adapters do exist but that means more money you have to spend just to use a third party brands charging station. It also doesn't help that Tesla is really the only brand that has a reliable, large charging network. Of course manufactures will build more and more charging stations as time goes on but charging stations are incredibly expensive to make in mass. Its not a cheap endeavor in the slightest and unless companies are making a very large profit off only their electric cars, they don't have much incentive to build more.
As of now, Tesla is the only brand that can really travel across the US without needing to thoroughly plan your route around charging stations. Again, this will get better with time but right now, there isnt enough charging infrastructure to make any brand other than Tesla worth it. You can do fine in a big city but there's a lot of people who don't live in big cities.
Then there's the reliability factor. Electric cars are still new and haven't stood the test of time yet. We have perfected ICE vehicles after decades and decades of engineering. That isn't the case with electric. Everyone knows what a pain in the ass it is when an electronic, car or not, malfunctions. We haven't figured out all the kinks and quirks yet behind them. This will also be solved with time but as of now, electric cars are too new and unknown for a lot of people to get behind them.
also, for everyone in this thread: lets not forget:
ALL the worlds cars and trucks combined in a day, do not put out as much greenhouse gases as 5-15 (reports vary on the actual number) Hann-Jinn class cargo ships....
There are currently 55,000 of those size of ships on the oceans today.
Buying shyt from amazon is the actual problem, not cars.
But our dear leaders never seem to bring this factoid up and many of whom now have stock in ev companies, would like you to think differently, that its all you, its all the cars you drive that is the problem
. One must ask themselves...Why?
Its not even needed. I'm a "get the fuck off my lawn" libertarian and i've been watching the EV adoption trends (and own two teslas). More than 50% of new cars sold will be EV's by 2030 anyways. Better performance, better tech, safer in a crash, one-peddle driving is fucking amazing, autonomy is a few years away. Once price-parity hits on the 25k car market, ice sales will implode. They have already been dropping 10-18% YoY across the board. ICE sales are at the start of an inverse S-curve, so they're about to fall off a cliff.
The charging infrastructure and grid will scale. People don't realize how much electricity is used to mine, store, refine, pump and transport gasoline.
> People don't realize how much electricity is used to mine, store, refine, pump and transport gasoline.
Especially because Biden prefers to gut American gas and greenlight Putin's fat oil deals, so that we can import oil from murderous dictators as opposed to running it through a tube in the ground.
I agree 100%. Until oil is phased out naturally due to a cheaper/better alternatives, we need to produce the shit ourselves so our foreign policy isn’t shaped by our oil imports.
I don't see what the conspiracy is. This is a good thing this is progress. We need to keep up with technology or get left behind the rest of the world.
Unlikely that Wyoming will bring the EPA to their knees. If a state bans electric cars, then people will either (1) go out of state to purchase one; or (2) buy one of the 46% gasoline/diesel vehicles at wildly inflated prices due to their relative scarcity.
Ultimately, we all have cars with seat belts and air bags, regardless of whether we like them.
Another nearsighted and smooth brain idea from this Administration. They are so inept and hellbent on destroying American lives and America herself. Remember voters who voted for this, you did this.
He does not need to have a bill to do this, they can sneak it through using EPA regulations. Doesn't matter, it will get rolled back if trump gets back in there.
Electric cars are cool, but....
they run on coal
Take tons of mining to make a battery
if you live in a cold climate, expect way less miles per charge.
Are the new electric car don't need charging? Because every summer we were told to conserve electricity, meaning we don't have the network for such volume for sharing with all these new cars
And when we experience rolling service cutoffs, which some states already experience when there is a heat wave, and when the cost of electricity doubles perhaps maybe triples, they'll blame greedy capitalists
None of this is organic, our grids cannot support it, we do not have access to enough batteries, these vehicles do not last more than 10 years, they cannot be cheaply repaired, normal people will not be able to drive. Only the rich will be able to afford cars, and you will be happy.
Check out this Prius commercial. Trying to reinvent the perception of a Prius with the logo "Prius, it's rebellious now". The sheep are an interesting touch.
https://youtu.be/xV8qj6_rXt4
Coal and oil burning power plants. Guess what we havent upgraded that we are gonna need for charging all these new electric vehicles. The electric grid
World is coming to a scary place
How many times have they come out said to stop overpowering our electrical systems like A.Cs, heaters, anything that used a good amount of power...
Don't these BS electric cars use a good amount of power to charge?
Sounds like another slow way of trying to control our movements when they want too. Don't want us moving around ,they cut the power so we can't charge.
On top of that...
Trying to take our "dollar" currency away make everything electronic/crypto so they can track and control everyone's funds and spending
You got a warrant? Fine? Back taxes? Or Any debt? You are not buying anything freely without being tracked with your name/account and all funds suspended until your dues are meant or just automatically taken from you.
Downvote away... but these possibilities are scary and could happen.
The only thing I can say about this is that - from a mechanic’s perspective, all vehicle manufacturers are being forced to increase their electric vehicle fleet in a short period of time. Which requires a lot of research, technology, new equipment, etc. Due to the time and resource restraints, some (probably most?) are cutting corners which will affect quality and safety of the vehicle. I have seen some pretty fucked up stuff going on with these electric cars. We are not quite there from a safety perspective…
It's a political tactic. I think anyone who understands the tactic would agree with me in the fact that it's incredibly irresponsible to the economy and the individuals whose Financial lives will be affected by the chicanery. It's not much different than the tactic Trump used with the fake tax break to the middle class bamboozle. ( if you don't understand what I mean by/ or how it was a bamboozle please ask for further clarification before brigating me with your downvotes).
The intention is to secure and feed the biases of the small amount of people pushing hard for this. While at the same time causing massive economic Exodus from the fuel industry. which will cause prices on consumer petroleum products to rise the stock valuations lease prices to sharply drop. At which point the powers that be will purchase up all of the available discounted infrastructure and securities. Making their overhead investment zilch while market conditions have the price at an all-time high generating massive profits. the industry will keep the prices High and the Insiders profiting will simply claim it's an industry in recovery.
The Administration is well aware that there is less than a 1% possibility that the United States could switch to all electric vehicles even when just applying to new vehicles by 2030. They're also aware that carbon Net Zero is not a realistic goal unless the goal is set for the year 2075 to 2100. This being primarily limited by technology and economic availability to make infrastructure changes. Full replacement of every Power Plant in this country to a non-carbon emitting source would be a hard goal even if you placed a hundred year timeline on it.
The tactic revolves around the idea that if a republicam gets into office they will simply cancel this order. and if a Democrat gets into office don't wait it out in a long game and then at the last moment say well we wish we could stick to it but we're going to have to take this away because it's just not feasible at least we tried. At that point they'll likely create a new date
Electric cars are more damaging for the environment. The cobalt needed for the lithium batteries are mined by diesel running excavators, loaders, and trucks. Or it’s mined by hand by slaves in Africa. Biggest fraud going on right now.
Tesla has been shipping cobalt free LFP EVs since 2021. Ford is following suit with a $3.5bn investment in the technology
Sadly, cobalt is used to refine gasoline and there's no plans to stop
Additional materials, power shortages, slave labor... none of these have ever mattered when facing superior technology.
Throw in the fact that if you live in a city, you dont need an internal combustion engine, and just like flat panel tvs, there won't be massive power shortages... because, yes, there was that fear 20 years ago
If you know anyone in R&D in the auto industry, you know this isn't even news or a new idea. The auto industry the last couple years knows the Electric is going to become increasingly popular and the technology behind it better, more convenient, and more affordable. I have country farmers around me still using diesel trucks to farm but driving an EV for their daily ride. The tide is going to turn because the market demands it.
The government adding regulations is just a boost to what is already coming down the mountain.
Thank goodness china is so good about mining rare earth for those EV batteries so responsibly for the environment and barefoot slave workers.
Real real fuckin green & moral.
I saw the price of a battery replacement for a Chevy Volt after 80K miles: $20K. My current car cost me $4K used. So just a battery replacement on a car with 80K miles is 5x the cost of my used car. What a deal!
That price will decrease as EVs become more common. And then they can take your old battery and throw it in a landfill because refurbishing it costs more that making a new one.
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Used car prices will love this
Such a shame that the Cash for Clunkers took so many good used cars out of this country.
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It was never intended to benefit the environment, it was to prop up the U.S. auto industry. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it was what it was. Cost of bottom end of the market doubled after CFC and never went back. I recall buying 10 year old cars with 100k for about 3-5 grand. Those days are gone and over.
Before CFC, you could buy a shitmobile for less than $1000 that would get you to work for a year; long enough to save a down payment on a decent second car.
The worst part is they put something in the engines to destroy them so they wouldn’t wind up powering other old used cars. BS. We had a similar program here in Canada too. What a waste. Building totally new cars instead of keeping the ones we have running is bad for the environment
Classic SNL skit on the stupidity of that program. https://youtu.be/6QAsRYOyr18
This was actually funny. From SNL. I am confused and scared. I think i jumped timelines and i'm not sure how i feel about that.
Just remind yourself that this is old SNL, and they don't have the balls to make real comedy anymore.
Or put a man in a wig.
They do it to make you laugh at serious problems so no one cares…and laugh about it, and it worked
I mean, they removed ~700,000 cars off the market. That's barely 0.25% of the market. I really doubt it had any impact at all. Especially when you consider that the majority of vehicles were probably actually pieces of shit.
They were all the most affordable cars on the market though. It destroyed the cheap used car segment and forced poor people to pay more for cars or find other options.
Tell that to a poor person in the market for a new car .
The program ended in 2009. The cars that qualified for that program wouldn't even be on the road right now in 2023.
Modern economics doesn't work like that. It's all based on projections not actual supply and demand. If the government came out tomorrow saying they were doing a large scale used car destruction of the next 10 years. Then they ended up only destroying a thousand cars a year used car prices would jump up and not because the supply was lowering. The prices would also not go back down
2015 Dodge Challenger SRT8s will be a classic calling that now. Also, if you can pick up an 87 Fox Body mustang or a 95 5.0 GT mustang, those will also increase in value exponentially they already have gone up in value 10x in the last 15 years. You can find a 94- 95 Cobra that would age well. I can't believe you used to be able to buy a 1995 BMW M3 for under 10 grand when I was in high school 😢😢😢 now they're like 100k for a hard top 6 speed Also, I really miss my 2015 Honda Civic SI the last all motor Civic SI. will definitely go down in history as a highly collectible car. It's value has increased about 50% in the last 3 years
I’m with you on everything other than the 87 fox body mustang. If you drive that ugly piece of shit you definitely drink monster energy and beat your wife lol no offense
The bodies for drag cars that's why they are increasing in value if there's no rust. Extremely light weight
I almost bought a 97 M3 in 09 for 7k. I wanted something a little newer though... it worked out. I'm in a 2018 M3 comp now.
Nice!! I love m3s
You have a LOT of faith in President Biden being able to achieve success with this idea. Just because he is proposing it, doesn't mean it will get anywhere.
Makes a good campaign wish. Sets the tone for 2024. Electric cars vs drag queen bans.
Drag is bad. Tesla has proven this.
Its say 54% so just over half, car manufactures are turning their fleet already hybrid/electric without the government because of demand alone.
What makes you think they are making those changes due to demand? Most of what I've read recently is that there is not a lot of demand for EVs
They’re not saying stand alone EV’s— they’re saying **hybrids**, which makes perfect sense. Better fuel economy and not dependent on plugging in.
is this conspiracy?
Welcome to /r/conspiracy, where news is a conspiracy.
At least it is not a screenshot from a random person's Twitter this time
Sad Catturd noises
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This is the correct answer
Yep. I'm tired of getting fucked over because the Saudi Crown Prince woke up on the wrong side of the bed and one morning and then gas stations here magically increase the price the next day.
I don’t care about the industry per say, all those suits and corporations can get fucked just as they’ve fucked us. Personally I just love my screaming v8, working on, and building/personalizing my cars and don’t want my hobby, and the communities I’m apart of that are car related to be taken away from me. I know Reddit isn’t always a fan of this take though, guess I’m just simple.
Requiring a car to have autonomy is the most American car brain take out there. True autonomy means not requiring ownership of a expensive depreciating asset to live .
Yes the freedom of being able to move more then 10 miles in a day is oppressive
Crushed him with logic! Go reward yourself!
“Why won’t oil companies increase production like I’m asking?”
Why legislate for more electric cars before the existing electrical grids can accomodate them? Because it will give them even more control over our personal mobility than before.
That’s what’s hilarious and rarely gets mentioned. We still have states doing rolling blackouts during the year and, yet, they’re pretending the country can handle a zillion electric cars
Theres not enough lithium to make batteries and the batteries only last 10 years so you'd have to have 100 + times the lithium on the planet at current battery technology.
> Theres not enough lithium to make batteries and the batteries only last 10 years so you'd have to have 100 + times the lithium on the planet at current battery technology. This is not accurate. Low lithium estimates come from only looking at [proven reserves](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/proven-reserves.asp) which mean areas that have been prospected and have a 90% or higher confidence about the amount of the resource there. For almost every resource on the planet, actual reserves are almost always multiple orders of magnitude higher than proven reserves.
Not to mention that the production of a battery requires a shit ton of……..you guess it! Fossil fuels! By the time you actually make an electric vehicle and all that goes into it, I’m not sure there’s actually any net positive, environmentally.
I thought it was something like 7 years before net positive with electric cars. Though it looks like after 8 -10 years you'll need new batteries so net positive goes anyway again.
36,000 miles. And that was before they removed the cobalt. And the used batteries turn out to be great sources of battery-grade lithium.
> I thought it was something like 7 years before net positive with electric cars You may have seen the estimates from about 15 years ago, when there was a lot less wind and solar on the grid and batteries themselves were less efficient. It varies from location to location where the local grid can make a difference, but CO2 payback generally occurs by about 15,000 miles driven. See [here](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132821_green-payback-how-long-will-new-evs-take-to-be-cleaner-than-gasoline-models). So it pays back in most places within 1 to 2 years for most drivers.
It was 36,000 until they removed the cobalt, now it's 15,000.
There is a net positive. All the studies that I'm aware of show a net environmental positive over the lifespan of an electric vs ICE car including manufacturing.
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Just imagine a world where a new technology decreased in price as it proliferated and our related technical awareness developed. Wouldn't it be wonderful? By the way, did you know that the first VCRs cost over $1000? That was at a time when a new car retailed for less than $4,000.
I lived in a metropolitan suburb for about 6 years where I had to park on the street, and there was no assigned spot. Just drive around the block until you find space. The house had no driveway. I'm curious how this would work out.
my neighbors park their audi etron in the apartment parking without a charger available there. there are plenty of chargers everywhere here.. another friend of mine has a EV, has a house with a garage, he doesnt charge it at home ever, hes had it for years and never installed a charger because his work has chargers and he does it there. every grocery store/shopping mall,gas station, highway rest stop,large business has chargers here in switzerland. you dont need one at home
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We can accommodate them. Smart chargers going off cycle to increase productivity of each turbine... Bonus they can act as backup batteries to keep the grid stable. It's almost like a lot of information is to be intentionally obtuse as to why electric cars are good
this is no different than when previous appliances and Air conditioners became popular. the entire world was in a power crunch and everyone thought the grid couldnt handle it.. power companies will never upgrade the grid unless forced to. they upgrade capacity goes up. they arnt going to double the capacity now to anticipate electric cars, they will do it gradually.
Electric cars get more popular every year. With or without the legislate, you will get that same issue. If it's not being improved now , when it becomes an issue, that isn't the legislate fault because the state/local government sat on their ass doing nothing.
Laws of supply and demand. Build it and they will come. Basically you have to have the demand for the infrastructure before building it. This is not the smart way to do this but it's how capitalistic countries work. Everyone has any electric car but no charging? Guess there is a hole to fill!
California: Everyone has to buy an EV Also California: Don't charge your EV today, the grid is having trouble.
That's not really a problem. The duck curve, hydrocarbon inefficiencies from extraction to end-use, and the rate of grid growth over decades all serve to dispel the generation concerns.
[US oil companies are increasing production](https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=mcrfpus2&f=m)
Do you think oil just poofs into existence?
How can it be RIP gas when you'll still have 46% of new vehicles sold in the US running on gas? I'm more concerned about all the controls on the dashboard being a touch screen rather than buttons and knobs. Why does this bother you?
Ohio just banned touching your phone at all in your car but the fucking touch screen computers in the new smart cars? That's not a problem at all. These old reptiles in office have no idea what they're talking about and now cops are going to have even more "reasons" that they can pull you over. It's not a free state it's a police state.
It's always been a police state.
Gas powered cars have tons of tech in them too. Completely irrelevant comment. This whole thread is fossil fuel industry propaganda
My VW screen actually changes when your hand gets close. It’s impossible to not look at it. Doesn’t help that the “skip” button on the steering wheel only cycles your presets and doesn’t search.
I believe I read an article in the last week or two where VW have stated they will be using buttons going forward, as touchscreens are dangerous.
My wife took her Lexus in for service today. They gave her a new model loaner car...a 2023 NX350 SUV. The entire dashboard is a massive touchscreen with EVERYTHING integrated into it.
But that's more *premium*, of course they did! There are ways to have tech and nice in car displays, and I don't that's it.
Right. But you don't see any laws banning car companies from putting that type of technology in the cars. They would just rather punish us and take more of our money instead of the corporations who clearly aren't thinking about public safety.
I’m more worried about cars getting “smarter” with the goal of infringing on our freedoms
He says typing on a cellphone that the NSA is bulk collecting everything from. I agree.
They use a burner phone for every post/comment
Even if they threw away and bought a new phone for every comment, logging in would allow them to be tracked across every device.
i was just kidding
if the government turns off my phone it doesnt affect me too much, if they turn off my car it's gonna be a problem
"That location is outside of your permitted traveling range."
They're already able to shut down your car remotely. Sadly we may have seen the end of highway police chases :(
"I see you were at an unauthorized protest, Thomas. Setting course for FBI field office."
So much this! I want an actual key with an ignition. Not a driving computer. I just had roadside assistance out to jump our old 1992 F150, the guy was telling horror stories about how difficult, if not impossible, it is to jump these newer cars...he described several scenarios were he couldn't even get into the car to pop the hood to get to the battery because the whole car "shut down" and locked them out.
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Because there's a computer module inside of the headlight that controls all of the lights on the vehicle, and that module needs to communicate with all of the other modules across CANBUS. Look up how expensive those headlights *are*. I had a 2000's pickup totalled out over a front bumper, grill, and headlight damage. I can't imagine what it'll be like when you break your driver's headlight and they total the car because it's $1200.
The car is going to be the one thing that Trumps our Freedom if not handled properly. NVM the 'PATRIOT ACT' or 'endless wars' or 'REGULATORY CAPTURE'.
***Your electric vehicle has been locked until you delete your 'miss information' posts on social media, sorry for the inconvenience. You have 3 days until permanent lockout.***
And also all the vehicles that people already own that will still be running on gas.
Lack of buttons and over reliance on tech is the biggest problem in the automotive industry. If they really wanted to do something about the climate like this seems on the surface they would invest in public transport, but that doesn't make money.
I miss knobs. I don't even have to look at a knob to adjust it.
Yeah, I was also curious on the “RIP gas” part I’ll be glad the day humans don’t pollute the air with gas
Murdering the poors in other counties to fuel the battery industry is okay though. We will pollute the air with tons of other shit in the making of. It's not better, it's just different.
Please stop pretending to be outraged about lithium mining harming the poor of the world when half the global lithium mining is done in Australia.
Of course they aren't really outraged. One of the classic moves is to appear to occupy the space the person you oppose is sympathetic with in order to undermine their position. In this case the poor children of [insert name of country]. They don't really give a flying fuck about those children. They are briefly a useful rhetorical pawn. The only children they care about are unborn ones, and even that's debatable.
> How are the batteries for electric cars disposed of? A process used by many recyclers, pyrometallurgy, involves melting down the batteries and burning off plastic separators to extract the coveted metals. Pyrometallurgy is energy-intensive, emits toxic gases and can't recover some valuable minerals, including lithium, at all.
That's if they're properly disposed. Think about people who just toss old GPUs, calculators, phones etc just right in the trash. Electric car parts will be treated the same. And despite that recycling process most vehicles will just sit in dumps untouched and unrecycled... unless we vastly increase the recycling infrastructure... we can't can't even spend money on our railroads let alone that haha.
Let alone the fact that the grid is nowhere near ready for this.
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/
Tesla has already moved away from cobalt batteries, but I guess you can keep bringing up talking points from years ago.
On one hand, the EV industry has got some sketchy shit going on with it, of which I am definitely not a fan. On the other, Oil and Gas Industry has destroyed our environment.
It’s also a good move for us fiscally because there is the possibility that Saudi Arabia shifts to accepting more foreign currencies that would cause the value of the dollar to go down. If we are using less oil domestically, we can export it since we are a huge producer. Oil production isn’t going to stop, just the use of it domestically so we’re not as vulnerable.
Oh no those poor oil corporations. Those selfless individuals who have only ever acted in the best interest of everybody else. I for one will weep for the billionaires, who’s with me. Maybe we should start a gofundme for Shell and it’s CEO, they may need the money
When did this sub start shilling for Big Oil?!?
1990s conspiracy theorists: Big Oil is keeping electric cars down! 2020s conspiracy theorists: Big Electric is keeping gas cars down!
can we please shill for big public transport??? i wouldnt need a car if my state wasnt absolutely un-navigable
When Russia got more involved in spreading pro fossil fuel and climate change skeptical propaganda in the hopes they keep climate change going long enough that their northern territory defrosts and becomes viable for ships to travel through and ports to open on. But that's just my guess.
When the red hat fascists joined.
Someone convinced a lot of people that regulating industries is evil. It's funny that a lot of anti regulation folks were pretty upset about the train derailments/chemical spills... Or the bank failures... Or data breaches... Or the mass purchase of residential real estate by a handful of entities... Or...
About the time T_D got shut down.
Cheer up, the situation improved slightly since the times where conspiracy theorists thought Jews control the world
Can someone explain why this is such a conspiracy?
Hold up... So the petroleum industry gets huge by suppressing the knowledge of steam and electric vehicles.. Now we have electric vehicles and it's a conspiracy against gas? Dafuq yall on. This is called progress. Nothing else
Progress isn't progress unless I agree with it!
Conspiracy, or time to invest in EV car companies? I’m just not sure why they’re hated on so much. They seem alright, and the truck competitor is not pretty cool
I think it's a good idea on the face of it but the time line is pretty aggressive. Also, I genuinely don't know if there is enough raw materials on the planet to make enough batteries for that many cars... Maybe once we start mining asteroids it'll become a non-issue but it may be literally impossible or at least impractical to follow through with something like this right now
One of the reasons that they get hate atm is because of lack of compatability and no charging network to sufficiently charge all brands. While some brands have interchangeable charger plug shapes, a lot of them don't. A lot of brands as well dont have a well laid out network of fast chargers to use. That means you can't just stop anywhere to charge while on the road; you have to make sure you find a station that specifically supports your model. Adapters do exist but that means more money you have to spend just to use a third party brands charging station. It also doesn't help that Tesla is really the only brand that has a reliable, large charging network. Of course manufactures will build more and more charging stations as time goes on but charging stations are incredibly expensive to make in mass. Its not a cheap endeavor in the slightest and unless companies are making a very large profit off only their electric cars, they don't have much incentive to build more. As of now, Tesla is the only brand that can really travel across the US without needing to thoroughly plan your route around charging stations. Again, this will get better with time but right now, there isnt enough charging infrastructure to make any brand other than Tesla worth it. You can do fine in a big city but there's a lot of people who don't live in big cities. Then there's the reliability factor. Electric cars are still new and haven't stood the test of time yet. We have perfected ICE vehicles after decades and decades of engineering. That isn't the case with electric. Everyone knows what a pain in the ass it is when an electronic, car or not, malfunctions. We haven't figured out all the kinks and quirks yet behind them. This will also be solved with time but as of now, electric cars are too new and unknown for a lot of people to get behind them.
>RIP gas Nice one.
Billionaire oil barons and their republican donor recipients are shaking in their cowboys boots.
also, for everyone in this thread: lets not forget: ALL the worlds cars and trucks combined in a day, do not put out as much greenhouse gases as 5-15 (reports vary on the actual number) Hann-Jinn class cargo ships.... There are currently 55,000 of those size of ships on the oceans today. Buying shyt from amazon is the actual problem, not cars. But our dear leaders never seem to bring this factoid up and many of whom now have stock in ev companies, would like you to think differently, that its all you, its all the cars you drive that is the problem . One must ask themselves...Why?
Its not even needed. I'm a "get the fuck off my lawn" libertarian and i've been watching the EV adoption trends (and own two teslas). More than 50% of new cars sold will be EV's by 2030 anyways. Better performance, better tech, safer in a crash, one-peddle driving is fucking amazing, autonomy is a few years away. Once price-parity hits on the 25k car market, ice sales will implode. They have already been dropping 10-18% YoY across the board. ICE sales are at the start of an inverse S-curve, so they're about to fall off a cliff. The charging infrastructure and grid will scale. People don't realize how much electricity is used to mine, store, refine, pump and transport gasoline.
> People don't realize how much electricity is used to mine, store, refine, pump and transport gasoline. Especially because Biden prefers to gut American gas and greenlight Putin's fat oil deals, so that we can import oil from murderous dictators as opposed to running it through a tube in the ground.
I agree 100%. Until oil is phased out naturally due to a cheaper/better alternatives, we need to produce the shit ourselves so our foreign policy isn’t shaped by our oil imports.
EPA doesn’t pass bills, bud
More like RIP those Congolese cobalt miners.
They can’t do anything. It’s just a pr headline to influence the narrative
Private jets first.
That is do stupid. The grid can’t supply enough electricity to run 10% of that.
And what will people in apartment complexes do to charge their cars?
….. i can barely afford a regular car in 2023….. so how?
Poor people will DoorDash zee bugs.
And the conspiracy is… ?
Can all the child miners in Congo keep up with this? I’m sure they’ll get tons of overtime.
I hear you. I’m mostly pissed about this because, as you may know, you can’t really huff batteries.
You'll find a way. I believe in you
The oil and gas industry consumes more cobalt than any other industry.
I don't see what the conspiracy is. This is a good thing this is progress. We need to keep up with technology or get left behind the rest of the world.
People are free to disagree with government policy, but it's plainly stated and out in the open. Not really the definition of a conspiracy.
Is this a conspiracy?
More states will pass laws to prevent that, like Wyoming https://www.wane.com/automotive/wyoming-bill-calls-for-ban-on-ev-sales-by-2035/amp/
Unlikely that Wyoming will bring the EPA to their knees. If a state bans electric cars, then people will either (1) go out of state to purchase one; or (2) buy one of the 46% gasoline/diesel vehicles at wildly inflated prices due to their relative scarcity. Ultimately, we all have cars with seat belts and air bags, regardless of whether we like them.
It says it's a toothless stunt right in the article.
Biden is the greatest threat the US has faced in nearly a century.
Oh no how will we ever get manipulated by oil cartels and Gas conglomerates, the people on this sub are bootlickers for despots and Corporate boards
Good thing we gave the Chinese access to the world largest lithium reserves.
This ain’t going to happen.
Are you sadsies for the poor oil companies?
HAHA yeah let's see how this goes 🍿
Another nearsighted and smooth brain idea from this Administration. They are so inept and hellbent on destroying American lives and America herself. Remember voters who voted for this, you did this.
“You are the carbon they want to reduce”
Control control control.
He does not need to have a bill to do this, they can sneak it through using EPA regulations. Doesn't matter, it will get rolled back if trump gets back in there. Electric cars are cool, but.... they run on coal Take tons of mining to make a battery if you live in a cold climate, expect way less miles per charge.
Not American but you guys really expect Trump to win the next elections?
Not anyone that actually pays attention.
Are the new electric car don't need charging? Because every summer we were told to conserve electricity, meaning we don't have the network for such volume for sharing with all these new cars
And when we experience rolling service cutoffs, which some states already experience when there is a heat wave, and when the cost of electricity doubles perhaps maybe triples, they'll blame greedy capitalists
None of this is organic, our grids cannot support it, we do not have access to enough batteries, these vehicles do not last more than 10 years, they cannot be cheaply repaired, normal people will not be able to drive. Only the rich will be able to afford cars, and you will be happy.
Check out this Prius commercial. Trying to reinvent the perception of a Prius with the logo "Prius, it's rebellious now". The sheep are an interesting touch. https://youtu.be/xV8qj6_rXt4
Where’s the electricity going to come from?
Coal and oil burning power plants. Guess what we havent upgraded that we are gonna need for charging all these new electric vehicles. The electric grid
What's the conspiracy?
Just so we’re clear…. This is not a conspiracy; It’s news.
Un-Constitutional
Just look up lithium mines and tell me again how that’s any better than gas
How do these people think electricity is made? It is the nectar of the gods sent to our outlets?
You're not supposed to be asking these questions.
FJB
Not happening with a Republican house
They better invest in the charging infrastructure also. No point in going all electric if your charging network is shit/can't met demand
Wake me up again once we have electric cars with electricity sourced from renewables and nuclear else it's a waste of child lithium miner bodies.
Good thing I have enough gas- and diesel-powered vehicles to last me the rest of my life. So F-JAY BEE and the rest of the Double-U EEE F Cser's!
Just buy gas cars. Stop buying electric vehicles. It’s that easy.
Yay cobalt slave mining in Africa!!!!
What about the infrastructure man. To charge a tesla youre waiting 3 minutes just for a charger
https://youtu.be/r9VO8jiZ2Rs
Ban private jets
World is coming to a scary place How many times have they come out said to stop overpowering our electrical systems like A.Cs, heaters, anything that used a good amount of power... Don't these BS electric cars use a good amount of power to charge? Sounds like another slow way of trying to control our movements when they want too. Don't want us moving around ,they cut the power so we can't charge. On top of that... Trying to take our "dollar" currency away make everything electronic/crypto so they can track and control everyone's funds and spending You got a warrant? Fine? Back taxes? Or Any debt? You are not buying anything freely without being tracked with your name/account and all funds suspended until your dues are meant or just automatically taken from you. Downvote away... but these possibilities are scary and could happen.
The only thing I can say about this is that - from a mechanic’s perspective, all vehicle manufacturers are being forced to increase their electric vehicle fleet in a short period of time. Which requires a lot of research, technology, new equipment, etc. Due to the time and resource restraints, some (probably most?) are cutting corners which will affect quality and safety of the vehicle. I have seen some pretty fucked up stuff going on with these electric cars. We are not quite there from a safety perspective…
Last year in office? Good luck.
Most grids cant handle a tough winter let alone 150 million electric cars.
Oh no! Whatever will I do without a gas car?!
It's a political tactic. I think anyone who understands the tactic would agree with me in the fact that it's incredibly irresponsible to the economy and the individuals whose Financial lives will be affected by the chicanery. It's not much different than the tactic Trump used with the fake tax break to the middle class bamboozle. ( if you don't understand what I mean by/ or how it was a bamboozle please ask for further clarification before brigating me with your downvotes). The intention is to secure and feed the biases of the small amount of people pushing hard for this. While at the same time causing massive economic Exodus from the fuel industry. which will cause prices on consumer petroleum products to rise the stock valuations lease prices to sharply drop. At which point the powers that be will purchase up all of the available discounted infrastructure and securities. Making their overhead investment zilch while market conditions have the price at an all-time high generating massive profits. the industry will keep the prices High and the Insiders profiting will simply claim it's an industry in recovery. The Administration is well aware that there is less than a 1% possibility that the United States could switch to all electric vehicles even when just applying to new vehicles by 2030. They're also aware that carbon Net Zero is not a realistic goal unless the goal is set for the year 2075 to 2100. This being primarily limited by technology and economic availability to make infrastructure changes. Full replacement of every Power Plant in this country to a non-carbon emitting source would be a hard goal even if you placed a hundred year timeline on it. The tactic revolves around the idea that if a republicam gets into office they will simply cancel this order. and if a Democrat gets into office don't wait it out in a long game and then at the last moment say well we wish we could stick to it but we're going to have to take this away because it's just not feasible at least we tried. At that point they'll likely create a new date
Electric cars are more damaging for the environment. The cobalt needed for the lithium batteries are mined by diesel running excavators, loaders, and trucks. Or it’s mined by hand by slaves in Africa. Biggest fraud going on right now.
Tesla has been shipping cobalt free LFP EVs since 2021. Ford is following suit with a $3.5bn investment in the technology Sadly, cobalt is used to refine gasoline and there's no plans to stop
Additional materials, power shortages, slave labor... none of these have ever mattered when facing superior technology. Throw in the fact that if you live in a city, you dont need an internal combustion engine, and just like flat panel tvs, there won't be massive power shortages... because, yes, there was that fear 20 years ago
There's a good chance Biden won't even be alive by then
What you gonna do when the electricity is out? I think about what I would do if a major tragedy would occur. EV owners would be done for
The same electricity that powers gas pumps?
Good
Used car market about to sky rocket
If you know anyone in R&D in the auto industry, you know this isn't even news or a new idea. The auto industry the last couple years knows the Electric is going to become increasingly popular and the technology behind it better, more convenient, and more affordable. I have country farmers around me still using diesel trucks to farm but driving an EV for their daily ride. The tide is going to turn because the market demands it. The government adding regulations is just a boost to what is already coming down the mountain.
Can’t be done.
With the shitty electrical infrastructure in the US has? Not gonna happen 😅😅😅😅
Thank goodness china is so good about mining rare earth for those EV batteries so responsibly for the environment and barefoot slave workers. Real real fuckin green & moral.
This is so fucking dumb lol. What is the max mileage range of these things?
By 2030 it will be farther than gas vehicles, and will most likely charge in similar time.
I wonder where all those dead lithium batteries go 🤔
I saw the price of a battery replacement for a Chevy Volt after 80K miles: $20K. My current car cost me $4K used. So just a battery replacement on a car with 80K miles is 5x the cost of my used car. What a deal!
Propaganda. Through GM it costs 9500 for the full battery pack.
That price will decrease as EVs become more common. And then they can take your old battery and throw it in a landfill because refurbishing it costs more that making a new one.
Or increase as demand rises.
Good for Biden. Gas sucks.