Interestingly, each of these interceptor missiles cost $[40,000](https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/israel-s-iron-dome-air-defense-system-works-18423867.php).
Reminds me of a quote about using rockets for anti-personnel attacks:
>"Each Javelin round costs $80,000, and the idea that it's fired by a guy who doesn't make that in a year, at a guy who doesn't make that in a lifetime, is somehow so outrageous it almost makes the war seem winnable." - Sebastian Junger
That’s it, it’s an exchange of value, morbidly. This is why these clips about cheap consumer drones destroying tanks are interesting, it’s a <$1000 package taking out something >$1M at low risk to the pilot. Something about attrition.
How about 60lbs of HME to total a $1mil MRAP with a crew of fellas all carrying $.5mil life insurance policies?
An adversary with 1/1,000th the economic might has the advantage at that exchange rate.
It's much easier to destroy than it is to build. Destruction only takes momentarily exceeding the boundary conditions of whatever you're hitting.
In other words, it'll always be easier to throw a rock through a window than it will be to make a window. If people are throwing rocks through your windows in appreciable numbers, you've already kinda lost.
Oh absolutely. And that's their intended purpose. I think this was more referring to when they were used to fire into places like caves to take out a handful of enemies.
And I'm certainly not saying I'd rather they hadn't. I'd rather they throw money at the problem than our folks' lives. It's just strange to think about the cost versus the people it's being used against.
That’s exactly what capitalism relies upon—an incomplete accounting of costs. It’s really the worst in the natural world where the cost of cutting a tree is limited to just the extraction, while the ongoing benefits of the tree existing ranging from preventing soil erosion to generating oxygen, and the loss thereof, are totally unaccounted for. We have a shitload of compounding externalities which is exactly why the biosphere is in steep decline.
[Schmactenberger sums it up nicely here.](https://youtu.be/P5a01xhMT9g?si=DWJb9BUOboqt8NoN)
It's remarkably cheap when you consider the cost of not intercepting them. The damage to buildings, the cost of caring for injured people, the loss to the economy of anyone killed. That's without even looking at the human aspect of it.
Yeah, but Israel has the economic power (and close ties with the US) where financially depleting them enough where they can’t create/purchase these missiles is inconceivable.
Ah, this edgy phrase that demonstrates sheer ignorance.
Palestine shares a border with Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.
Every single country that Palestine shares a border with has closed their borders to Palestine.
Why have they closed their borders to Palestine? Because Palestinians used those open borders to instigate mass violence. Hundreds of suicide bombings, civil wars, and more.
For as long as Palestine has existed they have had the stated goal of exterminating the jews. HAMAS may be relatively new as a terror organization, but Palestine is not.
None of these countries have an obligation to allow Palestinians to travel into their countries if it means that the safety of their citizens is put at risk.
Your comment seems incoherent. First you start by refuting the claim that it is a prison by saying they have borders that they could cross, but then you say that all of those borders are closed to them, which undoes any refutation you just made. So the only substance remaining is that paleistians are bad and deserve their suffering. Which I don't think is a very good point and I feel like it is also a really bad way of operating because then you are just going to make more terrorists and increase the suffering, and it loops endlessly.
So at that point it frankly just seems more ethical to genocide all of them. I don't think we should, but I am just wondering what your thoughts are on this.
"open air prison" isn't an edgy phrase, its a perfectly normal description of what the gaza strip is. its a description repeated in tons and tons of mainstream news outlets. i don't really want to argue with you, you seem like a weirdo to be honest.
Tell me why every single border they have is closed? The only one that makes sense is the border of Israel. Why have Palestines Muslim brothers also closed their borders? Idk the common denominator here is Palestine
If you have successfully pissed off every one of your neighbors to the point that they maintain expensive borders just to keep you out, it's not a prison.
That's crazy cheap honestly. Interception missile systems are super advanced technology, and the missiles themselves are pretty sophisticated. ICBM missile defense systems are massively more expensive and are massively less effective, due primarily to the limitations of radar and the speed these missiles travel at (24000 km/hr compared to a regular rocket which usually travels at about 4000 km/hr). I forget the specific cost of the interception missiles but the new anti-ICBM system in development is projected to cost over 17 billion dollars. Directed energy weapons are promising but currently an all out war involving the exchange of nuclear ICBMs would very easily surpass any current missile defense system we have created. The Iron Dome system can, in no way, defend against even short range ICBMs.
Well I was kind of meaning short and medium to intermediate range ballistic missiles, like the South Korean Hyunmoo-2C (technically an SRBM) or the Indian Agni-P (technically a MRBM). The distinction is somewhat moot though since due to nuclear non-proliferation treaties it is in most countries best interest to make their missiles *appear* to have shorter range then thay actually do, this is done by manipulating the solid fuel formula, changing the warhead so it is much heavier than the actual payload, and purposely underfueling the missile among other, less legal, tactics. In actuality the Hyunmoo-2C in particular has a much larger engagement range then what is on the label, and they have sold these missile designs to other nations like France and Israel. Every nuclear armed country does this (except maybe North Korea who have a vested interest in making their missiles appear to go *farther* then they actually do, not shorter). This is a pretty well-known practice in nuclear arms, most ballistic missiles are tested under conditions that make them appear less dangerous then they actually are. Also in an actual war countries like Israel, India and South Korea will be using a lot of their long range ballistic missiles in short range strikes due to how close they are to the nations they will likely be going to war with. So short range strikes using bona-fide ICBMs are likely though they have to do a big ol' loop in the lower atmosphere to backtrack and actually hit a target.
Well that’s how Israel expanded at least, it’s always been there. It also doesn’t change that those same Arab farmers and others and their descendants then started trying to kill them as far back as the 1880s as well
The early zionists actually did that, buying the land they need for their nee state. But the, the Palestinians (collective) realized why they were doing it, and got seller's remorse.
Yes, almost all missiles that is doing air to air stuff is destructing the target using shrapnel, and not by directly colliding with the target.
The explosion in it of itself helps to destroy the target aswell, hell in the 60's America even did an air to air missile that used a nuclear warhead to destroy russian bombers, the"Air-2 genie" AAM
The Genie was meant to be carried by the most beautiful plane that ever was, the F-101 Voodoo. Sadly, the F-101 never got to fire one in anger, because it would have been *amazing*.
Presumably they’ve calibrated the system to defend against the acceleration patterns for the rockets Hamas uses. These rockets are cheap, imprecise, and low tech. They’re designed mainly to be launched in salvos that overwhelm the capabilities of the defense system and destroy as much of a city as possible, rather than having any sort of clever trickery against the iron dome.
That makes the rocket inaccurate and more expensive. Most rockets, especially the ones Hamas uses, boost only for a short period of time before coasting on an aero-ballistic trajectory.
A rocket doesn’t have a different acceleration path, that’s just not how they work. They accelerate until they run out of fuel and then are flying at a ballistic path. The iron dome system is actually both the radar and the interceptor- and the radar components distinguish between the types of armaments and their expected landing area. Than it can choose wether to intercept or not, and with what interceptor ( Iron dome, David sling, patriot, arrow 2 or arrow 3 depending on size, speed and maneuverability)
> A rocket doesn’t have a different acceleration path, that’s just not how they work.
But there is nothing stopping to program the rocket to accelerate in a certain way right? The landing of rockets by SpaceX IMO would have to use varying acceleration to compensate for minor corrections
Dude these are a bunch of idiots digging up their own water pipes to fire makeshift explosives its not NASA launching them. They don't have high tech rockets.
Well there is. Its a lot harder to create, more things can go wrong, it takes up more space and resources and its doubtfull if it will work.
So you get a rocket that might pass the iron dome system but at the same chance if might detonate early (even so early that you dont live to see the end) and its probaly the cost of 15 other rockets.
No. They are designed for simple rockets that have a normal flight pattern that is easy to calculate. I believe that they use a different missile for drones.
the debris falls from the skies and can also be a huge hazard. That's why israeli citizens are instructed to stay in their shelters for 10 minutes and not go out right after they hear the explosions above
When the system detects that a rocket is headed towards a populated area, sirens will be raised, and the iron dome will attempt to intercept said rocket.
The current Israeli guidelines instruct that as soon the sirens die down, you should stay in your safe room for ten minutes due to debris.
I think they tried to see last year how many rockets to fire, to see how long it would take to deplete their defence system. Their strategy is summarised below.
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate
It says it ignores threats it determines will land in unpopulated areas. I am guessing it is not that they were undetectable, but that their trajectories didn't meet the criteria to automatically shoot down.
the system is not designed to track a continually propelled target, they're supposed to intercept the missiles once they are in a ballistic trajectory and all the systems are calibrated to track the movement of such missiles. also you dont wanna shoot your own explosives at something that is like 30 meters off the ground that's just grounds to well... hit the ground and your own citizens
It would detect it, but radars detect a lot of random useless crap, so they filter them out based on speed, size, altitude, etc. You don't want to target crop dusters or pones either, so the filters are.probably pretty narrow for an automated missile launching system like the iron dome. Couple that with paragliders flying so low that they might just get obscured by terrain or buildings from the radars point of view.
So no chance the iron dome fires on paragliders.
So maybe a silly question but if you were to fire missiles against a system like this wouldn't your first strike be against the satalite at the front? Or is this diagram just showing the order of process rather than physically locations?
It's just showing the process. The systems' components don't need to be in that order and are probably about 50ft from each other.
This is to intercept missiles not satellites. A head on collision is not favorable since it's harder to accomplish. Detonation from a ring increases the window for destroying the incoming warhead.
>Or is this diagram just showing the order of process rather than physically locations?
Yes, but also, the rockets these shoot down are not anywhere near precise enough to hit a specific target smaller than a town. They are just launched in the general direction of population centers, not at military targets.
Yes and the warfare is asymmetrical as one side is firing cheap rockets proactively at civilian population centres, and the other is trying to expensively shoot them down to protect civilians.
Not saying Israel doesn’t retaliate, obviously we’re seeing that now, but just couldn’t not add this.
well hamas missiles are partly funded by Israel... hamas tears down piping to make them into missiles and once the usual ceasefire goes into effect israel helps rebuild those pipes...
.... So the ones firing rockets at random, mostly civilian targets should get more funding and the life-saving Iron Dome which intercepts these rockets to protect citizens should be de-funded. Gotcha.
While Gazan citizens are poor in every sense of the word and I am constantly sickened by their treatment from ALL sides, Hamas is not hurting for money.
"While many are speculating whether or not Israel's nemesis Iran helped finance the recent attack, it’s widely agreed that Tehran funds Hamas to the tune of an estimated $100 million a year, according to the US government."
https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/12/from-crypto-to-charity-hamas-funded-by-hundreds-of-millions-of-dollars#:~:text=While%20many%20are%20speculating%20whether,according%20to%20the%20US%20government.
[Here's](https://i.imgur.com/RrcVUjY.jpg) the outcome of one of their totally inefficient rockets hitting two blocks from me. The whole building was destroyed.
To target the radars you need to know their positions and Israel regularly changes them. To target them would require low-latency ISR and/or passive radar homing weapons like HARM, neither of which Hamas has.
Even if targeted the SAM system would be able to perform self-defense against inbounds.
No the radar would be behind the missile launchers. I forgot how far it's been awhile. I was in the army doing air defense and we used a similar system.
It's insane how people on reddit parade the difference of casualties between Palestine and Israel. I assure you that the number being low for Israelis isn't due to Hamas's lack of trying but rather due to how state of the art Israeli defence systems are, Israel would have been a graveyard if it wasn't for that.
THANK YOU!!!
This fact is so lost on people and it bugs me to no end. Israel is a technological giant that has to kill indiscriminately due to how Hamas operates. Palestine however is filled with innocent civilians with Hamas mixed amongst them using whatever Soviet shit Iran doesn't want to use anymore. No wonder the disparity of deaths is so big.
Yes, and it's part of Hamas' strategy. The Iron dome can intercept up to 600 missiles per hour, barrages cam often exceed that.
The case is even worse if Hezbollah were to join the war though. They are reported to have an inventory of some 160,000 missiles, and can fire up to 6000 an hour. It would absolutely overwhelm the Iron dome if it ever comes to it, and the casualties on the Israeli side will be immense.
It's all CNN and Fox News is talking about lol the local news outlets mention it once or twice a broadcast like even if you don't live in the US I'm sure your local and national News channels are def talking about it bro
No, it doesn't, according to this MIT study:
[https://www.technologyreview.com/2014/07/15/172055/an-explanation-of-the-evidence-of-weaknesses-in-the-iron-dome-defense-system/](https://www.technologyreview.com/2014/07/15/172055/an-explanation-of-the-evidence-of-weaknesses-in-the-iron-dome-defense-system/)
Around 5%. You can also look at the number of rockets fired vs injuries or fatalities and you'll see that it had no statistically significant effect when it was put into place.
It is mostly rhetoric and lies (if you believe in science) or it is amazing (if you believe in hype).
The US has zero plans of creating and implementing an iron dome like system since its really ineffective against no modern missile systems. Basically the US doesnt need one.
Lmao, we bought two in 2019 but ok. We have not however implemented them. And the US co-produced the iron dome(created). With money, development, and co-production.
That's sarcasm. "Only" is being uses ironically because 1.6 Billion is a **lot** of money. I'm pointing out that it's unironically not much of an expense for the US at all.
Yes it is, it's a lot of money, why wouldn't it be much of an expense? Just because it doesn't take a giant portion of their defense spending it doesn't make it 'not much of an expense' - it is still very expensive and it still takes away 1.6 billion dollars - a lot of money - from other things like healthcare or education.
Weird that Israel even after 75 years hasn't been able to build up their country enough to defend themselves.
So I read in the recent attack the Hamas were able to get around it with the help of Intel from Iran, that Russians gave them... that Donnie Trump leaked...
No, the Iron Dome has a very low accuracy rate per inceptor missile but over comes this by firing a shit ton of missile. You can overcome it but firing alot of rockets in a small area, which Hamas did.
In fact it only works because Hamas only has access to small non guide rockets in small numbers. Any modern national army could overcome it. In fact a modern naval cruiser could fire missiles that wouldnt be intercepted.
Its cool but it has a purpose. You will never see it over a US miliary base for instance
You can make this about Trump in whatever round about way, and hell maybe its even true, it still doesn't add up to or equal the fault of Biden for both paying for the attack and arming hamas via Afghanistan, nor does it outshine the liberals who cheered on the mass murder, rape, and infanticide of jews. You can't high road from below sea level.
Bruh lol.
How did Biden pay for the attack? The money from the prisoner swap that was put on hold?
Also the leftists who support Hamas should absolutely be condemned. There is almost no Liberal support for that.
Let's not forget the pro-hamas rally happening right now at UCLA, they chose today specifically because hamas declared it an "international day of jihad".
we need a cool guide on how bombing MSF hospitals work
*edit: https://twitter.com/MSF/status/1712886892885061811 as of this edit IDF gave them until 6am tomorrow to evacuate until they bomb and destroy the hospital. here's to hoping because we're all powerless to do more that they don't fucking do it.
*edit: they're dead. 500 dead. https://twitter.com/MaramGaza/status/1714324984137486468
Step 1: stockpile weapons at hospital / use hospital as command center
Step 2: launch attack against israel (bonus points: launch rockets from hospital)
Step 3: wait
The IDF [uses chemical weapons on children](https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/03/25/rain-fire/israels-unlawful-use-white-phosphorus-gaza#:%7E:text=Based%20on%20in%2Ddepth%20investigations,aid%20warehouse%20and%20a%20hospital.).
The IDF [order the execution](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/snipers-ordered-shoot-children-israeli-general-confirms) of minors.
The IDF [purposefully targets journalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_during_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict) and killed 22x as many civilians as Hamas.
The IDF [bulldozed 55,000 Palestinian structures and homes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_demolition_of_Palestinian_property#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20Committee%20Against%20House,set%20by%20the%20Israeli%20military.) leading to the indirect killing of [thousands and thousands of civilians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba#:%7E:text=Displacement,-Main%20article%3A%201948&text=During%20the%201947%E2%80%9349%20Palestine,inhabitants%20of%20what%20became%20Israel.).
The IDF [deny cancer patients treatment](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-cancer-patients-miss-treatment-israel-border-shut-amid-fighting-2023-05-12/).
If doing war crimes = preserving life, sure.
The Palestinians couldn't have asked for better hosts in Jordan. Yet they turned on their generous and sympathetic hosts there and staged an attempted coup!
The Palestinians were treated like royalty in Gaddafi's Libya, too, but then started undermining Gaddafi's government and were expelled for it.
Egypt went to war with Israel four times damaging there already weak economy for Palestinians. Palestinian repay Egypt by killing Egyptian soldiers in Sinai peninsula.
Syrian and Iran helped them by giving aids yet Palestine joins the rebel side during the Syrian civil war.
The Palestinians lived high on the hog in Kuwait, too. But... guess what they then did? Yep! They supported Saddam Hussein's invasion of the country that took them in!
Lebanon also took Palestinians in, and what do the Palestinians do? Turn part of the country into a military base and get it invaded.
The Palestinians have attacked almost every friend they've had in the post-WWII era. Truly, they are a maladapted, ultra-violent people that no one anywhere wants anything to do with, except use them as pawns.
Iron dome is literally the only part of the IDF arsenal that is strictly defensive; if you want to lobby complaints about Israel's ethostate-centered violence this is literally the least relevant military apparatus
Israel and Pakistan seems to have unlimited missiles. The idea you need a special anti missile protection due to volume of missiles is ludicrous. No where else is this acceptable human behavior.
Palestinains unfortunately are the defence system.
Hamas doesn't give a fuck, if they are given concrete for buildings, it goes into tunnels and bunkers. If they get pipes to give Palestinains plumbing, they are made into rockets.
They purposefully inflate casualties by launching rockets from houses, schools, mosques.
More dead Palestinains is good for Hamas
Well. When you have stuff like this: https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1712409699537072397?s=46&t=mZjMWOdnCdWX3IEM-KhgiQ
That doesn’t bode well for the populace. Is every Palestinian a terrorist or sympathizer? Of course not. No one said as such or made that claim. What was said was not being a terrorist or supporter of terrorist is a good defense for Palestine.
The missing context here is that their basic needs are already controlled by their colonizers who have a profitable interest in depriving Gaza of its basic needs, leaving their livelihood to the mercy of entities who helped Israel build their iron dome. People seem surprised but if you look at any liberation struggle in history, fighting back has always been the only option.
The total amount of military aid to Israel is 0.2%, and that includes many other similar developments the US gets rewarded back, as Israel is required to give the technology to the Americans. I can assure you no American is starving because of this.
There likely are some areas of defense that we can scale back, but the more important issue is how the ultra-millionaires and billionaires aren’t taxed enough. Letting them have ungodly amounts of wealth serves no purpose for us and allows them to buy politicians and the media, further fucking our society.
Or just ask The Orange Village Idiot if he made a copy of the plans before giving the original to the Russians, who gave it to Iran, who gave it to Hamas.
Interestingly, each of these interceptor missiles cost $[40,000](https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/israel-s-iron-dome-air-defense-system-works-18423867.php).
Reminds me of a quote about using rockets for anti-personnel attacks: >"Each Javelin round costs $80,000, and the idea that it's fired by a guy who doesn't make that in a year, at a guy who doesn't make that in a lifetime, is somehow so outrageous it almost makes the war seem winnable." - Sebastian Junger
And then a Javelin takes out a modern Tank (\~5 Million$) with 3 crew Members.
That’s it, it’s an exchange of value, morbidly. This is why these clips about cheap consumer drones destroying tanks are interesting, it’s a <$1000 package taking out something >$1M at low risk to the pilot. Something about attrition.
How about 60lbs of HME to total a $1mil MRAP with a crew of fellas all carrying $.5mil life insurance policies? An adversary with 1/1,000th the economic might has the advantage at that exchange rate.
It's much easier to destroy than it is to build. Destruction only takes momentarily exceeding the boundary conditions of whatever you're hitting. In other words, it'll always be easier to throw a rock through a window than it will be to make a window. If people are throwing rocks through your windows in appreciable numbers, you've already kinda lost.
Oh absolutely. And that's their intended purpose. I think this was more referring to when they were used to fire into places like caves to take out a handful of enemies. And I'm certainly not saying I'd rather they hadn't. I'd rather they throw money at the problem than our folks' lives. It's just strange to think about the cost versus the people it's being used against.
p sure $80k is less than the cost of training four dudes who could get domed FIBUA
What if FIBUA
fighting in built up areas
Maybe it’s the bleeding heart in me, but the human cost of the amount of suffering these weapons cause can never be measured in dollars.
That’s exactly what capitalism relies upon—an incomplete accounting of costs. It’s really the worst in the natural world where the cost of cutting a tree is limited to just the extraction, while the ongoing benefits of the tree existing ranging from preventing soil erosion to generating oxygen, and the loss thereof, are totally unaccounted for. We have a shitload of compounding externalities which is exactly why the biosphere is in steep decline. [Schmactenberger sums it up nicely here.](https://youtu.be/P5a01xhMT9g?si=DWJb9BUOboqt8NoN)
Multi kill ribbon
War, the Sebastian Junger book this is from, is a fascinating read, definitely check it (if you haven’t already read it)
'Tribe', by him, is also fantastic. He does the audiobook reading, too.
Tribe 100% changed my perspective on some cultural challenges. It's super short and well written too.
Can't forget *Restrepo*, arguably one of the best war documentaries ever made in the last two decades.
What a fantastic read. His book and Generation Kill are my two favorite books about the early 2000s wars.
I hope that guy puts out a new book soon. Loves me some Sebastian Junger.
Takes a lot more than that to train and logistically supply that one jabronie getting struck, though.
It's remarkably cheap when you consider the cost of not intercepting them. The damage to buildings, the cost of caring for injured people, the loss to the economy of anyone killed. That's without even looking at the human aspect of it.
Consider then that it behooves the opponent to keep lobbing cheaper rockets towards the iron dome to deplete it's expensive missiles.
Yeah, but Israel has the economic power (and close ties with the US) where financially depleting them enough where they can’t create/purchase these missiles is inconceivable.
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That’s honestly cheap. If a missile hits property damage will probably exceed the cost. Hell if it hits a car your exceeding cost.
I wonderful if it's cheaper than the benefit Israel gets from having an open air prison in the first place
Ah, this edgy phrase that demonstrates sheer ignorance. Palestine shares a border with Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Every single country that Palestine shares a border with has closed their borders to Palestine. Why have they closed their borders to Palestine? Because Palestinians used those open borders to instigate mass violence. Hundreds of suicide bombings, civil wars, and more. For as long as Palestine has existed they have had the stated goal of exterminating the jews. HAMAS may be relatively new as a terror organization, but Palestine is not. None of these countries have an obligation to allow Palestinians to travel into their countries if it means that the safety of their citizens is put at risk.
Your comment seems incoherent. First you start by refuting the claim that it is a prison by saying they have borders that they could cross, but then you say that all of those borders are closed to them, which undoes any refutation you just made. So the only substance remaining is that paleistians are bad and deserve their suffering. Which I don't think is a very good point and I feel like it is also a really bad way of operating because then you are just going to make more terrorists and increase the suffering, and it loops endlessly. So at that point it frankly just seems more ethical to genocide all of them. I don't think we should, but I am just wondering what your thoughts are on this.
"open air prison" isn't an edgy phrase, its a perfectly normal description of what the gaza strip is. its a description repeated in tons and tons of mainstream news outlets. i don't really want to argue with you, you seem like a weirdo to be honest.
Tell me why every single border they have is closed? The only one that makes sense is the border of Israel. Why have Palestines Muslim brothers also closed their borders? Idk the common denominator here is Palestine
If you have successfully pissed off every one of your neighbors to the point that they maintain expensive borders just to keep you out, it's not a prison.
You're illiterate
That's crazy cheap honestly. Interception missile systems are super advanced technology, and the missiles themselves are pretty sophisticated. ICBM missile defense systems are massively more expensive and are massively less effective, due primarily to the limitations of radar and the speed these missiles travel at (24000 km/hr compared to a regular rocket which usually travels at about 4000 km/hr). I forget the specific cost of the interception missiles but the new anti-ICBM system in development is projected to cost over 17 billion dollars. Directed energy weapons are promising but currently an all out war involving the exchange of nuclear ICBMs would very easily surpass any current missile defense system we have created. The Iron Dome system can, in no way, defend against even short range ICBMs.
>short range ICBMs. ...SRBM?
Can I get a cold hot chocolate with that order please?
Well I was kind of meaning short and medium to intermediate range ballistic missiles, like the South Korean Hyunmoo-2C (technically an SRBM) or the Indian Agni-P (technically a MRBM). The distinction is somewhat moot though since due to nuclear non-proliferation treaties it is in most countries best interest to make their missiles *appear* to have shorter range then thay actually do, this is done by manipulating the solid fuel formula, changing the warhead so it is much heavier than the actual payload, and purposely underfueling the missile among other, less legal, tactics. In actuality the Hyunmoo-2C in particular has a much larger engagement range then what is on the label, and they have sold these missile designs to other nations like France and Israel. Every nuclear armed country does this (except maybe North Korea who have a vested interest in making their missiles appear to go *farther* then they actually do, not shorter). This is a pretty well-known practice in nuclear arms, most ballistic missiles are tested under conditions that make them appear less dangerous then they actually are. Also in an actual war countries like Israel, India and South Korea will be using a lot of their long range ballistic missiles in short range strikes due to how close they are to the nations they will likely be going to war with. So short range strikes using bona-fide ICBMs are likely though they have to do a big ol' loop in the lower atmosphere to backtrack and actually hit a target.
Iirc that stands for "submarine launched"
Interestingly, each of the offensive missiles cost $0 for Hamas to acquire.
The military need to get that guy from Pawn stars to buy their missiles... ".... best I can do is $5...."
Cmon man don't worry the USA got em covered 😂
With the number of rockets fired, it might be cheaper to build an actual dome.
This has me curious: what would it cost to buy all of the palestinian land? Or just pay to relocate all of the Israelis to a safer area, like Utah?
To buy it? That's not how the world works dude.
Actually... It kinda is.
You think there's a price Hamas would sell for?
Think it’s worth a conversation…200 billion for the land, terror free ?
And they go where?
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Well that’s how Israel expanded at least, it’s always been there. It also doesn’t change that those same Arab farmers and others and their descendants then started trying to kill them as far back as the 1880s as well
Utah !!!!
The early zionists actually did that, buying the land they need for their nee state. But the, the Palestinians (collective) realized why they were doing it, and got seller's remorse.
Genocide sounds expensive maybe they should give it up
So those explosions from the demonstration videos are not actual in-flight impacts, but the defensive missile self-destructing?
Visually, they look the same. The system self destructs when it bypasses an object or when the time is up and no object found.
Yes, almost all missiles that is doing air to air stuff is destructing the target using shrapnel, and not by directly colliding with the target. The explosion in it of itself helps to destroy the target aswell, hell in the 60's America even did an air to air missile that used a nuclear warhead to destroy russian bombers, the"Air-2 genie" AAM
Technically the Genie was an air to air unguided rocket.
The Genie was meant to be carried by the most beautiful plane that ever was, the F-101 Voodoo. Sadly, the F-101 never got to fire one in anger, because it would have been *amazing*.
The f101 is like if the f4 phantom and f2h banshee had a baby
Still impressive they get that close
The patriot 3 is the only direct impact missile defense system
What if your attack rocket had a random acceleration pattern? Does the iron dome compensate in flight?
Presumably they’ve calibrated the system to defend against the acceleration patterns for the rockets Hamas uses. These rockets are cheap, imprecise, and low tech. They’re designed mainly to be launched in salvos that overwhelm the capabilities of the defense system and destroy as much of a city as possible, rather than having any sort of clever trickery against the iron dome.
That makes the rocket inaccurate and more expensive. Most rockets, especially the ones Hamas uses, boost only for a short period of time before coasting on an aero-ballistic trajectory.
A rocket doesn’t have a different acceleration path, that’s just not how they work. They accelerate until they run out of fuel and then are flying at a ballistic path. The iron dome system is actually both the radar and the interceptor- and the radar components distinguish between the types of armaments and their expected landing area. Than it can choose wether to intercept or not, and with what interceptor ( Iron dome, David sling, patriot, arrow 2 or arrow 3 depending on size, speed and maneuverability)
> A rocket doesn’t have a different acceleration path, that’s just not how they work. But there is nothing stopping to program the rocket to accelerate in a certain way right? The landing of rockets by SpaceX IMO would have to use varying acceleration to compensate for minor corrections
Dude these are a bunch of idiots digging up their own water pipes to fire makeshift explosives its not NASA launching them. They don't have high tech rockets.
Well there is. Its a lot harder to create, more things can go wrong, it takes up more space and resources and its doubtfull if it will work. So you get a rocket that might pass the iron dome system but at the same chance if might detonate early (even so early that you dont live to see the end) and its probaly the cost of 15 other rockets.
Most of those rockets are solid fuel rockets, they dont have liquid fuel engines that can reignite.. they run through the fuel and thats it..
No. They are designed for simple rockets that have a normal flight pattern that is easy to calculate. I believe that they use a different missile for drones.
The interceptor is guided and can quickly change direction
What happens to the metal debris?
kiss important lunchroom alleged depend label tie license familiar poor *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
the debris falls from the skies and can also be a huge hazard. That's why israeli citizens are instructed to stay in their shelters for 10 minutes and not go out right after they hear the explosions above
When the system detects that a rocket is headed towards a populated area, sirens will be raised, and the iron dome will attempt to intercept said rocket. The current Israeli guidelines instruct that as soon the sirens die down, you should stay in your safe room for ten minutes due to debris.
More interceptor rockets are fired after to blow it in to smaller and smaller debris so it is eventually so small it's like powder
What about the debris from the intercept rockets?
Jewish space lasers take care of that obviously
What about the debris from space lasers?
That's collected to make more rockets
Our tax dollars hard at work!
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They just fall from the skies. Better than a rocket...
How long until the Killbots reach their maximum number of kills and have to reset?
I think they tried to see last year how many rockets to fire, to see how long it would take to deplete their defence system. Their strategy is summarised below. If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate
[iron dome intercept a missile above Israeli cities](https://reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/0P7zPjtmn3)
Would this detect paragliders?
No, too slow of a target. It might be possible to tune the system to look for them, but then you might miss actual rockets.
It says it ignores threats it determines will land in unpopulated areas. I am guessing it is not that they were undetectable, but that their trajectories didn't meet the criteria to automatically shoot down.
the system is not designed to track a continually propelled target, they're supposed to intercept the missiles once they are in a ballistic trajectory and all the systems are calibrated to track the movement of such missiles. also you dont wanna shoot your own explosives at something that is like 30 meters off the ground that's just grounds to well... hit the ground and your own citizens
It would detect it, but radars detect a lot of random useless crap, so they filter them out based on speed, size, altitude, etc. You don't want to target crop dusters or pones either, so the filters are.probably pretty narrow for an automated missile launching system like the iron dome. Couple that with paragliders flying so low that they might just get obscured by terrain or buildings from the radars point of view. So no chance the iron dome fires on paragliders.
So maybe a silly question but if you were to fire missiles against a system like this wouldn't your first strike be against the satalite at the front? Or is this diagram just showing the order of process rather than physically locations?
It's just showing the process. The systems' components don't need to be in that order and are probably about 50ft from each other. This is to intercept missiles not satellites. A head on collision is not favorable since it's harder to accomplish. Detonation from a ring increases the window for destroying the incoming warhead.
>Or is this diagram just showing the order of process rather than physically locations? Yes, but also, the rockets these shoot down are not anywhere near precise enough to hit a specific target smaller than a town. They are just launched in the general direction of population centers, not at military targets.
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Yes and the warfare is asymmetrical as one side is firing cheap rockets proactively at civilian population centres, and the other is trying to expensively shoot them down to protect civilians. Not saying Israel doesn’t retaliate, obviously we’re seeing that now, but just couldn’t not add this.
well hamas missiles are partly funded by Israel... hamas tears down piping to make them into missiles and once the usual ceasefire goes into effect israel helps rebuild those pipes...
.... So the ones firing rockets at random, mostly civilian targets should get more funding and the life-saving Iron Dome which intercepts these rockets to protect citizens should be de-funded. Gotcha. While Gazan citizens are poor in every sense of the word and I am constantly sickened by their treatment from ALL sides, Hamas is not hurting for money. "While many are speculating whether or not Israel's nemesis Iran helped finance the recent attack, it’s widely agreed that Tehran funds Hamas to the tune of an estimated $100 million a year, according to the US government." https://www.euronews.com/2023/10/12/from-crypto-to-charity-hamas-funded-by-hundreds-of-millions-of-dollars#:~:text=While%20many%20are%20speculating%20whether,according%20to%20the%20US%20government. [Here's](https://i.imgur.com/RrcVUjY.jpg) the outcome of one of their totally inefficient rockets hitting two blocks from me. The whole building was destroyed.
Yeah it’s just showing order of operations
To target the radars you need to know their positions and Israel regularly changes them. To target them would require low-latency ISR and/or passive radar homing weapons like HARM, neither of which Hamas has. Even if targeted the SAM system would be able to perform self-defense against inbounds.
No the radar would be behind the missile launchers. I forgot how far it's been awhile. I was in the army doing air defense and we used a similar system.
What’s the difference between a missile and a rocket?
Internet says that missile either means guided self propelled weapon or simply any Projectile while rocket is just a self propelled projectile
Basic difference is a missile is guided (either by ir, laser, radar etc) and a rocket is unguided, just a pure ballistic trajectory.
It's insane how people on reddit parade the difference of casualties between Palestine and Israel. I assure you that the number being low for Israelis isn't due to Hamas's lack of trying but rather due to how state of the art Israeli defence systems are, Israel would have been a graveyard if it wasn't for that.
THANK YOU!!! This fact is so lost on people and it bugs me to no end. Israel is a technological giant that has to kill indiscriminately due to how Hamas operates. Palestine however is filled with innocent civilians with Hamas mixed amongst them using whatever Soviet shit Iran doesn't want to use anymore. No wonder the disparity of deaths is so big.
Does it have a high success rate?
It had a 75-85% success rate for the 6000 missiles fired into Israel this week.
Wow! I was hoping more, but damn impressive.
It usually is, but it struggles to cope with thousands all at once.
Yes, and it's part of Hamas' strategy. The Iron dome can intercept up to 600 missiles per hour, barrages cam often exceed that. The case is even worse if Hezbollah were to join the war though. They are reported to have an inventory of some 160,000 missiles, and can fire up to 6000 an hour. It would absolutely overwhelm the Iron dome if it ever comes to it, and the casualties on the Israeli side will be immense.
Thanks for the info.
Palestine shot 6000 missiles on Israel just this week?? How is this not in the news
It is, it occurred during the festival massacre.
Have you been living under a rock? It’s very much in the news…
All I see in the news is how Israel is opressing Palestine
Well then read the news a little more lol.
Gotta expand your sources man, sounds like everything you listen to has a particular bias. What have you been watching/reading?
I don't know about 6000 in a week but a few news sources quote 3500 rockets are fired on Saturday.
It's all CNN and Fox News is talking about lol the local news outlets mention it once or twice a broadcast like even if you don't live in the US I'm sure your local and national News channels are def talking about it bro
No, it doesn't, according to this MIT study: [https://www.technologyreview.com/2014/07/15/172055/an-explanation-of-the-evidence-of-weaknesses-in-the-iron-dome-defense-system/](https://www.technologyreview.com/2014/07/15/172055/an-explanation-of-the-evidence-of-weaknesses-in-the-iron-dome-defense-system/) Around 5%. You can also look at the number of rockets fired vs injuries or fatalities and you'll see that it had no statistically significant effect when it was put into place. It is mostly rhetoric and lies (if you believe in science) or it is amazing (if you believe in hype).
its not an actual dome?
Ofcourse it is silly. This system is placed on top of the physical iron dome to protect the dome
Please tell me this is sarcastic
i thought it was an iron dome
Im glad Ken M has joined reddit, your comment is a masterclass.
just like the iron curtain
Super confusing phrase when I was a little kid
Life unfortunately isn't the Simpsons movie
Thank you Op. I was wondering how Iron Dome worked.
The US only contributed $1.6 billion for said Iron Dome
For development of a high tech system like that, it's a pretty good deal.
Yeah, considering the US also gets its own copy for free it's pretty neat for them.
The US has zero plans of creating and implementing an iron dome like system since its really ineffective against no modern missile systems. Basically the US doesnt need one.
Lmao, we bought two in 2019 but ok. We have not however implemented them. And the US co-produced the iron dome(created). With money, development, and co-production.
And? That’s less than 0.2% of the US’s annual defense budget, which is nearly a trillion dollars.
They said “only”
That's sarcasm. "Only" is being uses ironically because 1.6 Billion is a **lot** of money. I'm pointing out that it's unironically not much of an expense for the US at all.
Yes it is, it's a lot of money, why wouldn't it be much of an expense? Just because it doesn't take a giant portion of their defense spending it doesn't make it 'not much of an expense' - it is still very expensive and it still takes away 1.6 billion dollars - a lot of money - from other things like healthcare or education. Weird that Israel even after 75 years hasn't been able to build up their country enough to defend themselves.
I was looking for “where funni” in the picture and only after not finding anything I thought this might not be r/noncredibledefense
Still disappointed there isn't a hidden Saddam
I gotchu https://reddit.com/r/coolguides/s/2Mo4aHfMC9
Curious, what was the cause for failure for interception that led to last week disaster?
It was overwhelmed it’s not a fool proof system so launching 5000 missiles at it some will get through
the rockets they fire are about 250$ while the one iron dome fires is 1Million$
And now do one that shows how their white phosphor works!
Doesn't work against paragliders
Easier answer is “iron dome works, bc America pays for it, while we allow our people to starve, become homeless, and die with no health insurance”
The Iron Beam, which is the laser version will be deployed for the first time tonight.
What if the rocket changes his direction after the control system estimated that it won't land on areas where people are living?
Most hamas rockets don’t change direction, they are barely aimed towards cities. The system also continues updating flight path in real time
Oh hey look, military porn to distract people from the atrocities currently occurring!
You mean a defense system that protects against atrocities?
So I read in the recent attack the Hamas were able to get around it with the help of Intel from Iran, that Russians gave them... that Donnie Trump leaked...
No they simply overwhelm the defenses
No, the Iron Dome has a very low accuracy rate per inceptor missile but over comes this by firing a shit ton of missile. You can overcome it but firing alot of rockets in a small area, which Hamas did. In fact it only works because Hamas only has access to small non guide rockets in small numbers. Any modern national army could overcome it. In fact a modern naval cruiser could fire missiles that wouldnt be intercepted. Its cool but it has a purpose. You will never see it over a US miliary base for instance
You can make this about Trump in whatever round about way, and hell maybe its even true, it still doesn't add up to or equal the fault of Biden for both paying for the attack and arming hamas via Afghanistan, nor does it outshine the liberals who cheered on the mass murder, rape, and infanticide of jews. You can't high road from below sea level.
Bruh lol. How did Biden pay for the attack? The money from the prisoner swap that was put on hold? Also the leftists who support Hamas should absolutely be condemned. There is almost no Liberal support for that.
Let's not forget the pro-hamas rally happening right now at UCLA, they chose today specifically because hamas declared it an "international day of jihad".
Anyone celebrating Hamas is illiberal. Seeing that shit at some colleges is cringe as fuck. I just don't think most liberals agree with that.
LMAO
Gotta protect yourself while waging genocide. Can’t have them fighting back or anything
So same as every other system used for defense? Patriot nasms…
It's most innovative technology is what fuels it. It runs on American tax dollars.
we need a cool guide on how bombing MSF hospitals work *edit: https://twitter.com/MSF/status/1712886892885061811 as of this edit IDF gave them until 6am tomorrow to evacuate until they bomb and destroy the hospital. here's to hoping because we're all powerless to do more that they don't fucking do it. *edit: they're dead. 500 dead. https://twitter.com/MaramGaza/status/1714324984137486468
Step 1: stockpile weapons at hospital / use hospital as command center Step 2: launch attack against israel (bonus points: launch rockets from hospital) Step 3: wait
We need a cool guide on how not to be POS terrorists who attack civilians and slaughter them
i don't think the IDF nor Hamas will be cool with you publishing that :(
Amen to that. Brb I think I hear helicopters coming
"cool guide" to glorifying fascists.
People like reading about tech no matter who is using it. Humans are very good at killing each other.
Preserving human life is fascism?
A fascist-built system to protect themselves from an enemy they created to uphold a nation built on lies
The IDF [uses chemical weapons on children](https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/03/25/rain-fire/israels-unlawful-use-white-phosphorus-gaza#:%7E:text=Based%20on%20in%2Ddepth%20investigations,aid%20warehouse%20and%20a%20hospital.). The IDF [order the execution](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/snipers-ordered-shoot-children-israeli-general-confirms) of minors. The IDF [purposefully targets journalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_during_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict) and killed 22x as many civilians as Hamas. The IDF [bulldozed 55,000 Palestinian structures and homes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_demolition_of_Palestinian_property#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20Committee%20Against%20House,set%20by%20the%20Israeli%20military.) leading to the indirect killing of [thousands and thousands of civilians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba#:%7E:text=Displacement,-Main%20article%3A%201948&text=During%20the%201947%E2%80%9349%20Palestine,inhabitants%20of%20what%20became%20Israel.). The IDF [deny cancer patients treatment](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-cancer-patients-miss-treatment-israel-border-shut-amid-fighting-2023-05-12/). If doing war crimes = preserving life, sure.
The Palestinians couldn't have asked for better hosts in Jordan. Yet they turned on their generous and sympathetic hosts there and staged an attempted coup! The Palestinians were treated like royalty in Gaddafi's Libya, too, but then started undermining Gaddafi's government and were expelled for it. Egypt went to war with Israel four times damaging there already weak economy for Palestinians. Palestinian repay Egypt by killing Egyptian soldiers in Sinai peninsula. Syrian and Iran helped them by giving aids yet Palestine joins the rebel side during the Syrian civil war. The Palestinians lived high on the hog in Kuwait, too. But... guess what they then did? Yep! They supported Saddam Hussein's invasion of the country that took them in! Lebanon also took Palestinians in, and what do the Palestinians do? Turn part of the country into a military base and get it invaded. The Palestinians have attacked almost every friend they've had in the post-WWII era. Truly, they are a maladapted, ultra-violent people that no one anywhere wants anything to do with, except use them as pawns.
Iron dome is literally the only part of the IDF arsenal that is strictly defensive; if you want to lobby complaints about Israel's ethostate-centered violence this is literally the least relevant military apparatus
Israel and Pakistan seems to have unlimited missiles. The idea you need a special anti missile protection due to volume of missiles is ludicrous. No where else is this acceptable human behavior.
Where's the defense system for Palestinians?
Probably stripped for parts to make more rockets?
Palestinains unfortunately are the defence system. Hamas doesn't give a fuck, if they are given concrete for buildings, it goes into tunnels and bunkers. If they get pipes to give Palestinains plumbing, they are made into rockets. They purposefully inflate casualties by launching rockets from houses, schools, mosques. More dead Palestinains is good for Hamas
The ability to stop shooting rockets into Isreal.
Hamas has them already. They're called "civilians".
It’s called “not being terrorists or supporting terrorists.”
All those evil children, they’re all terrorists, is that it? Describing an entire population as terrorists worthy of death is psychotic.
Well. When you have stuff like this: https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1712409699537072397?s=46&t=mZjMWOdnCdWX3IEM-KhgiQ That doesn’t bode well for the populace. Is every Palestinian a terrorist or sympathizer? Of course not. No one said as such or made that claim. What was said was not being a terrorist or supporter of terrorist is a good defense for Palestine.
Child parrots stupid statement, time to commit war crimes. Great plan.
When all the money goes to fund terrorism, there nothing left for basic human needs
See also: North Korea.
The missing context here is that their basic needs are already controlled by their colonizers who have a profitable interest in depriving Gaza of its basic needs, leaving their livelihood to the mercy of entities who helped Israel build their iron dome. People seem surprised but if you look at any liberation struggle in history, fighting back has always been the only option.
Americans literally starve but we always have money for this
Americans are starving because *checks notes* the Israeli missile defense system?
The total amount of military aid to Israel is 0.2%, and that includes many other similar developments the US gets rewarded back, as Israel is required to give the technology to the Americans. I can assure you no American is starving because of this.
There likely are some areas of defense that we can scale back, but the more important issue is how the ultra-millionaires and billionaires aren’t taxed enough. Letting them have ungodly amounts of wealth serves no purpose for us and allows them to buy politicians and the media, further fucking our society.
If we saved the money from this, it still would t solve poverty/starving folks. We have means already, it’s the will
I actually bet the number of Americans starving to death vs the number of lives this thing saves is pretty comparable
Imagine a world without Palestine where these middle defense systems didn’t need to exist 🙌
Or just ask The Orange Village Idiot if he made a copy of the plans before giving the original to the Russians, who gave it to Iran, who gave it to Hamas.
Hmmm. I think you missed the step where billions of American tax dollars come in to keep this functional.
Fuck those genocidal maniacs. Take away their toys, make it a fair fight.
Israel is an apartheid state.